Why should Teachers get Tenure? No One else in the Work Force gets it.

[Bonanza]

I've often thought about why teachers get tenure and no other type of job has that kind of "protection."

It seems to me that it is a way of teacher possibly faking a couple of years of being a supposedly, "good teacher," and subsequently showing their true colors and doing a disservice to the children they are teaching when they finally have in the years to be tenured.

If tenure is such a great thing, why don't other specific types of jobs do the same thing?
BTW -- I am not speaking about unions, although teachers are a union.

[DougB]

You are a little behind the times. Florida stopped giving tenure to teachers 4 years ago for the very reason you said.

[graciegirl]

I've often thought about why teachers get tenure and no other type of job has that kind of "protection."

It seems to me that it is a way of teacher possibly faking a couple of years of being a supposedly, "good teacher," and subsequently showing their true colors and doing a disservice to the children they are teaching when they finally have in the years to be tenured.

If tenure is such a great thing, why don't other specific types of jobs do the same thing?
BTW -- I am not speaking about unions, although teachers are a union.


I agree with you.

[chalpm]

Not sure about Florida, but in NY custodians at the University were tenured as were firemen and probably others I can't think of at the moment..during the probationary period an employee can be let go without any given cause..it's up to the admn to do their job and weed out the poor employees during this period..most often three years. Employee's jobs are NOT secure once tenure is granted..just more difficult to let them go..documentation is needed.

[red tail]

a union is a union is a union....ugh

[OBXNana]

I've often thought about why teachers get tenure and no other type of job has that kind of "protection."

It seems to me that it is a way of teacher possibly faking a couple of years of being a supposedly, "good teacher," and subsequently showing their true colors and doing a disservice to the children they are teaching when they finally have in the years to be tenured.

If tenure is such a great thing, why don't other specific types of jobs do the same thing?
BTW -- I am not speaking about unions, although teachers are a union.

I couldn't agree more. Our daughter is a tenured teacher with 8 years on the job. She hates the fact there are so many good teachers that can't get jobs and other teachers (not always the older ones!) sit back and forget why they got into the profession. In PA around 1995 in order to become a teacher, a student had to graduate from college with 3.0. On the surface that is a good idea, but it also produced teachers that were book smart, but had no concept how to give the love of learning to their class.

The main issue is how to evaluate a teacher and get away from the tenure system.

[gatherer47]

tenure or no tenure,if you're not doing a good job,they'll find a way to get rid of you-it's usually an ultimatum "resign or else"

[DruannB]

Well, I'm tenured, but teach on the university level. No union. And if I don't perform, tenure or not, my university will find a way to remove me. Tenure can breed lazy teaching, but it also protects those of us who want to try new things, push our students to greater heights without fear of the negative student evaluations (many which are from students who were coddled in the lower grades), and an administration that likes to terminate older professors because they cost more to keep. And if I don't publish every year and go to conferences to present papers, you can also bet that I not only won't get a raise, but they will start to compile a file on me that will lead to early retirement or termination based on not upholding the minimum standards. Teaching is just hard work, physically and mentally, and certainly, it's not for everyone. You must LOVE it if you're going to be good because you must put your heart and soul into it.

[dbussone]

Well, I'm tenured, but teach on the university level. No union. And if I don't perform, tenure or not, my university will find a way to remove me. Tenure can breed lazy teaching, but it also protects those of us who want to try new things, push our students to greater heights without fear of the negative student evaluations (many which are from students who were coddled in the lower grades), and an administration that likes to terminate older professors because they cost more to keep. And if I don't publish every year and go to conferences to present papers, you can also bet that I not only won't get a raise, but they will start to compile a file on me that will lead to early retirement or termination based on not upholding the minimum standards. Teaching is just hard work, physically and mentally, and certainly, it's not for everyone. You must LOVE it if you're going to be good because you must put your heart and soul into it.

I love and respect academicians at the college and postgrad level, but not unions. My favorite contractual inclusion is termination for "contumacious" behavior.

[tomwed]

Do you want the best and the brightest in the classroom or in business?
Should school administrators get tenure?
Do you want the board of education to run the school district and do the hiring and firing?

Anyone elected, at least in NJ can be on the board of education.

[gatherer47]

I taught with a lady whose son was president of our school board.She once said to me "I'm surprised Jimmy wanted to run for school board,he always hated school." Many times people run because they have a bone to pick about something.They have the mindset that that they'll get elected and fix what they were upset about.On the other I've known many members who did have student's best interests in mind. But as I said before tenure is just a word.If you're doing a poor job they'll find a way to get rid of you.And that's a good thing.

[waynet]

Bravo for unions!!!!

[skyc6]

Any principal who is worth his/her salary can remove an unsatisfactory teacher if he just does his/her job.
Sometimes they spend a little too much time "chewing the fat" with the PE teachers instead of having a presence in the building and dropping into classrooms. I have been on both sides. It is not that hard.
Sometimes districts decide to save some money by hiring a bunch of new teachers, instead of retaining veterans. Tenure can prevent this.
What if hospitals decided to give no security to experienced Doctors, and hired fresh new ones every few years?

[skyc6]

Well, I'm tenured, but teach on the university level. No union. And if I don't perform, tenure or not, my university will find a way to remove me. Tenure can breed lazy teaching, but it also protects those of us who want to try new things, push our students to greater heights without fear of the negative student evaluations (many which are from students who were coddled in the lower grades), and an administration that likes to terminate older professors because they cost more to keep. And if I don't publish every year and go to conferences to present papers, you can also bet that I not only won't get a raise, but they will start to compile a file on me that will lead to early retirement or termination based on not upholding the minimum standards. Teaching is just hard work, physically and mentally, and certainly, it's not for everyone. You must LOVE it if you're going to be good because you must put your heart and soul into it.

All of the reasons you favor tenure apply to teachers of all grades, not just universities. You are right that you have to love it because you have to put up with lots of negative reactions, difficult parents, time constraints, ridiculous testing of students and poor behavior. Additional education is also a component. Very few other union jobs require any college, much less 4+++ years. I looked forward to going to work every single day and never took a sick day in 25 years. It was wonderful!

[sunnyatlast]

I've often thought about why teachers get tenure and no other type of job has that kind of "protection."

It seems to me that it is a way of teacher possibly faking a couple of years of being a supposedly, "good teacher," and subsequently showing their true colors and doing a disservice to the children they are teaching when they finally have in the years to be tenured.

If tenure is such a great thing, why don't other specific types of jobs do the same thing?
BTW -- I am not speaking about unions, although teachers are a union.

Actually, there IS another job that has tenure like that, but with much better pay, insurance benefits, and pension available sooner for fewer years served.

Like teachers, these people WE hire often get stale and unresponsive/unaccountable, too……..

Longest serving U.S. Senators:
http://www.senate.gov/senators/Biographical/longest_serving.htm

Members of the U.S. House of Representatives who have served 40 years or longer:
Members Who Have Served 40 Years or Longer in the House | US House of Representatives: History, Art & Archives (http://history.house.gov/Institution/Firsts-Milestones/40-Years/)

[Bonanza]

You are a little behind the times. Florida stopped giving tenure to teachers 4 years ago for the very reason you said.

I'm not behind the times.
I didn't say Florida.
Most states still have tenure.

[jbdlfan]

I'm not behind the times.
I didn't say Florida.
Most states still have tenure.

You are a bit behind the times if you are not familiar with the new teacher evaluation system. Teachers are subject to stricter evaluations than in the past which include classroom observations, continuing education and student performance on state and federal mandated tests. Half of the evaluation in my district is student performance. Under-performing teachers will not be around long, tenure or not. I have an administrator in my room nearly once a week. If a teacher is not doing their job, they will be on their way out. Principals and schools are under the gun with the new standards, Common Core in most states, to raise test scores so you will see some significant changes.
Finally, you are the ones that elect the officials that negotiate with the school union and you get what you deserve.....

[shcisamax]

Now now kids, let's not have finger pointing or the principal will be in here giving everyone a time out :)

[mixsonci]

Federal employees, at least State Dept. Foreign Service, are tenured.

[OBXNana]

Federal employees, at least State Dept. Foreign Service, are tenured.

Exactly why there are so many contractors working for the Federal Government. Contractors are "at will" employees.

[dbussone]

Any principal who is worth his/her salary can remove an unsatisfactory teacher if he just does his/her job.
Sometimes they spend a little too much time "chewing the fat" with the PE teachers instead of having a presence in the building and dropping into classrooms. I have been on both sides. It is not that hard.
Sometimes districts decide to save some money by hiring a bunch of new teachers, instead of retaining veterans. Tenure can prevent this.
What if hospitals decided to give no security to experienced Doctors, and hired fresh new ones every few years?

Hospitals don't give "security" to doctors. Most physicians are independent practitioners or work with others in a group practice. The aggregate medical staff of a hospital is typically in an independent, but affiliated, organization with its own bylaws, rules and regulations.

[Chi-Town]

I've often thought about why teachers get tenure and no other type of job has that kind of "protection."

It seems to me that it is a way of teacher possibly faking a couple of years of being a supposedly, "good teacher," and subsequently showing their true colors and doing a disservice to the children they are teaching when they finally have in the years to be tenured.

If tenure is such a great thing, why don't other specific types of jobs do the same thing?
BTW -- I am not speaking about unions, although teachers are a union.



I agree with you.

GG, didn't you have tenure in Ohio? And while you were a teacher did you see other teachers fake it for a couple of years? BTW, my parents sent me to a Catholic school for the first few years. I'm not sure if the nuns had tenure, but I doubt they faked anything in the classroom. It was brutal.

[rjm1cc]

tenure or no tenure,if you're not doing a good job,they'll find a way to get rid of you-it's usually an ultimatum "resign or else"

My experience as a school board member is it is hard to get rid of poor teachers and it can cause a new teacher to be terminated if there performance is questionable and they would get tenure if they were not fired.

[tomjbud]

I think the real question should be - why don't teachers get paid better?

[ping]

What is it with people.....always coming down on teachers (summers off, class day ends at 3pm, tenure, etc.). With such perks, everyone should want to be a teacher...you'd think! Not so, you work long ours off the clock, you invest your own income on materials to inhance that classroom, you deal with: children with many and varied problems, parents that are helicopter types to those who's interest is none existing, administrations that offen don't stand by you, a community that is ready to "hang you high" for anything and everything. You'd wonder why anyone would teach! Teaching is a vocation...a craft that starts with enthusiasm and later is perfected with experience (hence tenure). Sure their are teachers who lose the fight swimming against the current and become mediocre at best. But the majority work tiredlessly for and with the next generation. So throw them the tidbit....tenure! Oh, by the way I worked in a special needs preschool and my husband taught 35 years with high schoolers. We know of which we speak. We both loved being in the classroom...would not want to do anything else, but it is NOT the easy job non-teachers make it out to be!

[KayakerNC]

I think the real question should be - why don't teachers get paid better?

Exactly!
Tenure was initiated as a way to attract teachers since the pay was not very good. So...the pay isn't great, but we can offer you job security.
Teachers overpaid? I don't think so.

[B767drvr]

I think the real question should be - why don't teachers get paid better?

Not to sound flippant, but the short answer is supply and demand. The skill set required to perform that job is not so unique or difficult to attain that the market must pay a higher (attracting) wage.


(Back to the OP: From my lay perspective, it's nearly impossible to get terrible K-12 teachers fired in CA. With tenure being recently overturned in CA, there's f-i-n-a-l-l-y hope.)

[graciegirl]

What is it with people.....always coming down on teachers (summers off, class day ends at 3pm, tenure, etc.). With such perks, everyone should want to be a teacher...you'd think! Not so, you work long ours off the clock, you invest your own income on materials to inhance that classroom, you deal with: children with many and varied problems, parents that are helicopter types to those who's interest is none existing, administrations that offen don't stand by you, a community that is ready to "hang you high" for anything and everything. You'd wonder why anyone would teach! Teaching is a vocation...a craft that starts with enthusiasm and later is perfected with experience (hence tenure). Sure their are teachers who lose the fight swimming against the current and become mediocre at best. But the majority work tiredlessly for and with the next generation. So throw them the tidbit....tenure! Oh, by the way I worked in a special needs preschool and my husband taught 35 years with high schoolers. We know of which we speak. We both loved being in the classroom...would not want to do anything else, but it is NOT the easy job non-teachers make it out to be!

I agree with almost everything you say and I can tell that you KNOW and lived dedication. But I don't think any job should be sealed in. I don't think our good teachers are paid enough and I don't think our lack luster teachers need to continue on. It used to be that teachers always attended the PTA meetings and that they went out of their way to do extra things.

I wish I could thank almost all of my teachers for the dedicated effort that somehow propelled this motherless child.

[tomwed]

State Avg. Starting Salary 2012-2013

Alabama $36,198
Alaska $44,166
Arkansas $32,691
Arizona $31,874
California* $41,259
Colorado $32,126
Connecticut $42,924
District of Columbia* $51,539
Delaware $39,338
Federal Education Association $45,751
Florida $35,166
Georgia $33,664
Hawaii $41,027
Iowa $33,226
Idaho $31,159
Illinois $37,166
Indiana $34,696
Kansas $33,386
Kentucky $35,166
Louisiana $38,655
Massachusetts $40,600
Maryland $43,235
Maine $31,835
Michigan $35,901
Minnesota $34,505
Missouri $30,064
Mississippi $31,184
Montana $27,274
North Carolina $30,778
North Dakota $32,019
Nebraska $30,844
New Hampshire $34,280
New Jersey $48,631
New Mexico $31,960
Nevada $35,358
New York $43,839
Ohio $33,096
Oklahoma $31,606
Oregon $33,549
Pennsylvania $41,901
Rhode Island $39,196
South Carolina $32,306
South Dakota $29,851
Tennessee $34,098
Texas $38,091
Utah $33,081
Virginia $37,848
Vermont $35,541
Washington $36,335
Wisconsin $33,546
West Virginia $32,533
Wyoming $43,269

[Papa Cuma]

a union is a union is a union....ugh


A serf is a serf is a serf...ugh

[graciegirl]

State Avg. Starting Salary 2012-2013

Alabama $36,198
Alaska $44,166
Arkansas $32,691
Arizona $31,874
California* $41,259
Colorado $32,126
Connecticut $42,924
District of Columbia* $51,539
Delaware $39,338
Federal Education Association $45,751
Florida $35,166
Georgia $33,664
Hawaii $41,027
Iowa $33,226
Idaho $31,159
Illinois $37,166
Indiana $34,696
Kansas $33,386
Kentucky $35,166
Louisiana $38,655
Massachusetts $40,600
Maryland $43,235
Maine $31,835
Michigan $35,901
Minnesota $34,505
Missouri $30,064
Mississippi $31,184
Montana $27,274
North Carolina $30,778
North Dakota $32,019
Nebraska $30,844
New Hampshire $34,280
New Jersey $48,631
New Mexico $31,960
Nevada $35,358
New York $43,839
Ohio $33,096
Oklahoma $31,606
Oregon $33,549
Pennsylvania $41,901
Rhode Island $39,196
South Carolina $32,306
South Dakota $29,851
Tennessee $34,098
Texas $38,091
Utah $33,081
Virginia $37,848
Vermont $35,541
Washington $36,335
Wisconsin $33,546
West Virginia $32,533
Wyoming $43,269

Thought I'd bring this back on subject.

[blueash]

Tenure is there to protect good teachers from the whims of politicians, parents, donors, and prejudice. Prior to tenure it was common for a new administrator to fire teachers just to bring in his own team, parents to use their economic or social power to threaten teachers if they did not give their child an excellent grade, and especially donors to colleges who wanted to get rid of Professor Darwin for his heresy as a theoretical example with a bribe to the administration of a new building. It was strongly felt that teachers needed to be fair equally to rich and poor and free to teach within the parameters of the local laws, as they saw fit. Does an English teacher have every parent's ok to use Slaughterhouse Five, or Huckleberry Finn? Once the teacher has been hired, and vetted as an effective teacher (obviously there can be problems with that process) they are given job security to not be constantly threatened with termination without cause. It is a small incentive to get good and great people to go into a profession that now often requires a master's degree and pays about the same as a paralegal which requires a few months training after high school. But I know, never miss a chance to bash teachers. There are problems with the tenure system and it is worthwhile addressing those issues.

Teacher Tenure - ProCon.org (http://teachertenure.procon.org/) for a balanced discussion of this issue. If the OP wants to know why teachers get tenure rather than just vent opposition then I would suggest a simple google search using the term "why do teachers get tenure" It results in over 7 million hits. Some are helpful to explain the history of why.

[B767drvr]

State Avg. Starting Salary 2012-2013

Alabama $36,198
Alaska $44,166
Arkansas $32,691
Arizona $31,874
California* $41,259
Colorado $32,126
Connecticut $42,924
District of Columbia* $51,539
Delaware $39,338
Federal Education Association $45,751
Florida $35,166
Georgia $33,664
Hawaii $41,027
Iowa $33,226
Idaho $31,159
Illinois $37,166
Indiana $34,696
Kansas $33,386
Kentucky $35,166
Louisiana $38,655
Massachusetts $40,600
Maryland $43,235
Maine $31,835
Michigan $35,901
Minnesota $34,505
Missouri $30,064
Mississippi $31,184
Montana $27,274
North Carolina $30,778
North Dakota $32,019
Nebraska $30,844
New Hampshire $34,280
New Jersey $48,631
New Mexico $31,960
Nevada $35,358
New York $43,839
Ohio $33,096
Oklahoma $31,606
Oregon $33,549
Pennsylvania $41,901
Rhode Island $39,196
South Carolina $32,306
South Dakota $29,851
Tennessee $34,098
Texas $38,091
Utah $33,081
Virginia $37,848
Vermont $35,541
Washington $36,335
Wisconsin $33,546
West Virginia $32,533
Wyoming $43,269

WOW! Our data are SIGNIFICANTLY different! :confused:


Average Salaries of Public School Teachers: 2011–12

2009–10 Rank 2010-11 Rank 2011-12 Rank State Average Annual Salary

NEW YORK $73,398
MASSACHUSETTS $71,721
CONNECTICUT $69,465
DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA $68,720*
CALIFORNIA $68,531
NEW JERSEY $67,078
MARYLAND $63,634
ALASKA $62,425
RHODE ISLAND $62,186*
PENNSYLVANIA $61,934
MICHIGAN $61,560
DELAWARE $58,800*
ILLINOIS $57,636
OREGON $57,348
WYOMING $57,222
OHIO $56,715
MINNESOTA $54,959*
NEVADA $54,559*
NEW HAMPSHIRE $54,177*
HAWAII $54,070
WISCONSIN $53,792
GEORGIA $52,938
WASHINGTON $52,232
VERMONT $51,306*
INDIANA $50,516
IOWA $50,240
LOUISIANA $50,179*
KENTUCKY $49,730
COLORADO $49,049
VIRGINIA $48,703*
ARIZONA $48,691*
IDAHO $48,551*
MONTANA $48,546*
TEXAS $48,373
UTAH $48,159*
NEBRASKA $48,154
ALABAMA $48,003
SOUTH CAROLINA $47,428
MAINE $47,338
TENNESSEE $47,082
KANSAS $46,718
FLORIDA $46,479
MISSOURI $46,406*
ARKANSAS $46,314
NORTH DAKOTA $46,058
NORTH CAROLINA $45,947
NEW MEXICO $45,622
WEST VIRGINIA $45,320*
OKLAHOMA $44,391
MISSISSIPPI $41,646*
SOUTH DAKOTA $38,804

United States $55,418*
Source: National Education Association (NEA) Research, Rankings and Estimates 2010, 2011 and 2012 (tables C–9 and C–11)

* NEA estimate

ADA = Average Daily Attendance

[graciegirl]

Tenure is there to protect good teachers from the whims of politicians, parents, donors, and prejudice. Prior to tenure it was common for a new administrator to fire teachers just to bring in his own team, parents to use their economic or social power to threaten teachers if they did not give their child an excellent grade, and especially donors to colleges who wanted to get rid of Professor Darwin for his heresy as a theoretical example with a bribe to the administration of a new building. It was strongly felt that teachers needed to be fair equally to rich and poor and free to teach within the parameters of the local laws, as they saw fit. Does an English teacher have every parent's ok to use Slaughterhouse Five, or Huckleberry Finn? Once the teacher has been hired, and vetted as an effective teacher (obviously there can be problems with that process) they are given job security to not be constantly threatened with termination without cause. It is a small incentive to get good and great people to go into a profession that now often requires a master's degree and pays about the same as a paralegal which requires a few months training after high school. But I know, never miss a chance to bash teachers. There are problems with the tenure system and it is worthwhile addressing those issues.

Teacher Tenure - ProCon.org (http://teachertenure.procon.org/) for a balanced discussion of this issue. If the OP wants to know why teachers get tenure rather than just vent opposition then I would suggest a simple google search using the term "why do teachers get tenure" It results in over 7 million hits. Some are helpful to explain the history of why.

Blueash...tenure has nothing to do with what is taught and what isn't taught. I don't see anyone bashing teachers. All dedicated teachers want to teach with other dedicated teachers.

[janmcn]

There's a big difference between average starting salary and average salary.

[tomwed]

There's a big difference between average starting salary and average salary.

Do you think it's 25%?

[tomjbud]

Not to sound flippant, but the short answer is supply and demand. The skill set required to perform that job is not so unique or difficult to attain that the market must pay a higher (attracting) wage.


(Back to the OP: From my lay perspective, it's nearly impossible to get terrible K-12 teachers fired in CA. With tenure being recently overturned in CA, there's f-i-n-a-l-l-y hope.)

College students going into teaching are obviously not doing it for the money. They have a calling and a passion to teach. That being said, if you want to attract the best, brightest and most motivated individuals into teaching you have to pay more. Many college students are attracted by the higher salaries of other professions and don't want to live the frugal lifestyle required of a teacher. As a retired teacher, I can tell you of the extra duties and part time jobs I worked so I could provide for my family. It was not easy, but my real reward comes from my former students who tell me that I have impacted their lives in a positive way.

[B767drvr]

if you want to attract the best, brightest and most motivated individuals into teaching you have to pay more.

Not to be argumentative, but how does this differ from any other profession?

I have yet to read anyone on the medical board asking for a recommendation of an AVERAGE cardiologist, oncologist, or dentist? :D

[buggyone]

Personally, I think the averages quoted sound pretty decent. A teacher making $55,000 and up is good money for a two income household - and most are two income households, I believe.

[DruannB]

There are many misconceptions about what it means to be a teacher, what we do for a living, how much we make, and the purpose of tenure. If I had to do it over again, however, would I return to accounting, where I made more money? Nope. Now, let's talk about really, really rough jobs...like garbage picker-uppers. I also would not want to be a dentist...suicide rate is very high.

[tomwed]

Not to be argumentative, but how does this differ from any other profession?

I have yet to read anyone on the medical board asking for a recommendation of an AVERAGE cardiologist, oncologist, or dentist? :D


Aren't you hoping that your doctors were taught by the best and the brightest and not just the average medical school professor? Wouldn't you agree that great teachers inspire greatness?

[sunnyatlast]

Tenure is there to protect good teachers from the whims of politicians, parents, donors, and prejudice. Prior to tenure it was common for a new administrator to fire teachers just to bring in his own team, parents to use their economic or social power to threaten teachers if they did not give their child an excellent grade, and especially donors to colleges who wanted to get rid of Professor Darwin for his heresy as a theoretical example with a bribe to the administration of a new building. It was strongly felt that teachers needed to be fair equally to rich and poor and free to teach within the parameters of the local laws, as they saw fit. Does an English teacher have every parent's ok to use Slaughterhouse Five, or Huckleberry Finn?

Once the teacher has been hired, and vetted as an effective teacher (obviously there can be problems with that process) they are given job security to not be constantly threatened with termination without cause. It is a small incentive to get good and great people to go into a profession that now often requires a master's degree and pays about the same as a paralegal which requires a few months training after high school. But I know, never miss a chance to bash teachers. There are problems with the tenure system and it is worthwhile addressing those issues.


I don't like seeing tenure keeping a lazy, worn out, jaded teacher in a position that new grads would love to fill and grow in and ignite the students' enthusiasm, either. But…

"Bring in his own TEAM" is the operative phrase/word! Literally. Who can understand the frustration and torment of a seasoned veteran, skilled and loving lady teacher now having their former student-"former stand-out football player" now being their Boss-Principal, who hires in his "former team buddies" who graduated with a 2.0 GPA, into master teachers' jobs? It actually happens!

The evaluations they put into your file are not "objective", folks! Bias like that can kill great teachers.

[rubicon]

The underlying issue of tenure is not tenure but its misapplication and abuse. but that is the nature of human beings. The system frustrates the removal of bad teachers and in fact by its very existence often leaves many blind to bad performance.

As to teacher unions and for that matter public service unions they all need to be banned and in fact never should have been allowed to organize because they pander to politicians who do their bidding quid pro quo for votes and which is in conflict with the desire of taxpayers to keep the tax base low.

Additionally the agenda for many schools is politically directed and as such our education system is deteriorating rapidly.

[B767drvr]

Wouldn't you agree that great teachers inspire greatness?

Just trying to follow the logic… right now teachers aren't paid enough and apparently we need to pay more to get the best, brightest, and most highly motivated. THEREFORE, currently we're employing something less than the best and brightest (otherwise why would we need to pay more?)

[B767drvr]

As to teacher unions and for that matter public service unions they all need to be banned and in fact never should have been allowed to organize because they pander to politicians who do their bidding quid pro quo for votes and which is in conflict with the desire of taxpayers to keep the tax base low.



:bigbow:

[tomwed]

Just trying to follow the logic… right now teachers aren't paid enough and apparently we need to pay more to get the best, brightest, and most highly motivated.


THEREFORE, currently we're employing something less than the best and brightest (otherwise why would we need to pay more?)



I don't think I said motivated. If I did I should retract that statement. You do need to pay more to get the best and the brightest.

Some of the best and the brightest have a calling. The money is not the motivation.

[Laurie2]

Tenure is there to protect good teachers from the whims of politicians, parents, donors, and prejudice. Prior to tenure it was common for a new administrator to fire teachers just to bring in his own team, parents to use their economic or social power to threaten teachers if they did not give their child an excellent grade, and especially donors to colleges who wanted to get rid of Professor Darwin for his heresy as a theoretical example with a bribe to the administration of a new building. It was strongly felt that teachers needed to be fair equally to rich and poor and free to teach within the parameters of the local laws, as they saw fit. Does an English teacher have every parent's ok to use Slaughterhouse Five, or Huckleberry Finn? Once the teacher has been hired, and vetted as an effective teacher (obviously there can be problems with that process) they are given job security to not be constantly threatened with termination without cause. It is a small incentive to get good and great people to go into a profession that now often requires a master's degree and pays about the same as a paralegal which requires a few months training after high school. But I know, never miss a chance to bash teachers. There are problems with the tenure system and it is worthwhile addressing those issues.

Teacher Tenure - ProCon.org (http://teachertenure.procon.org/) for a balanced discussion of this issue. If the OP wants to know why teachers get tenure rather than just vent opposition then I would suggest a simple google search using the term "why do teachers get tenure" It results in over 7 million hits. Some are helpful to explain the history of why.


Thank you.

Also, the website you linked is excellent for anybody interested in having good information to think through, rather than simply declaring open season, without even trying or wanting to see the big picture.

[B767drvr]

Thank you.

Also, the website you linked is excellent for anybody interested in having good information to think through, rather than simply declaring open season, without even trying or wanting to see the big picture.

Teacher tenure is unconstitutional in a number of states, apparently, regardless of any big picture.

>>A judge in Los Angeles on Tuesday sided with nine students who sued to overturn the state statutes governing teacher hiring and firing, saying they served no compelling purpose and had led to an unfair, nonsensical system that drove excellent new teachers from the classroom too soon while allowing incompetent senior ones to remain.
<<

California Teacher Tenure Law Unconstitutional (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/06/10/vergara-california-decision_n_5479666.html)

[pbkmaine]

Good teachers can change your life for the better. My Dad was one. He could not walk down the street without being stopped and thanked by former students. My Dad remembered all their names. Having said that, I know any number of people who went into teaching because it matched their kids' schedules or because they wanted their summers off. Some teachers are passionate and dedicated, yes. But for others, it's just a job. Job tenure does not make people who already love their jobs love them more and it does not make those who are going through the motions better teachers. Get rid of it.

[Laurie2]

(sigh)

"Mamas, don't let your babies grow up to be teachers."

[blueash]

Blueash...tenure has nothing to do with what is taught and what isn't taught. I don't see anyone bashing teachers. All dedicated teachers want to teach with other dedicated teachers.

I beg to differ.
A Brief History of Tenure - TIME (http://content.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1859505,00.html)
. Just as steel and auto workers fought against unsafe working conditions and unlivable wages, teachers too demanded protection from parents and administrators who would try to dictate lesson plans or exclude controversial materials like Huck Finn from reading lists.

Academic freedom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_freedom)
In the United States, for example, according to the widely recognized "1940 Statement on Academic Freedom and Tenure", teachers should be careful to avoid controversial matter that is unrelated to the subject. When they speak or write in public, they are free to express their opinions without fear from institutional censorship or discipline, but they should show restraint and clearly indicate that they are not speaking for their institution.

I can give you more if you need

[waynet]

I can't believe anyone would teach in todays climate. The crap from administrators,from state boards of ed. and from the parents whose child is never to blame for anything. And from people who think they know about teaching but really know nothing about the profession. They could not pay me enough to teach and this is what many young people are saying.

[B767drvr]

I can't believe anyone would teach in todays climate. The crap from administrators,from state boards of ed. and from the parents whose child is never to blame for anything. And from people who think they know about teaching but really know nothing about the profession. They could not pay me enough to teach and this is what many young people are saying.

Here's a job opening at my son's college (with any luck!)

>>Supporters of Mireille Miller-Young cite the "cultural legacy of slavery" and even the effects of pregnancy to explain why the feminist studies professor at the University of California, Santa Barbara would accost a teenager spreading a pro-life message on campus.

The pregnant 38-year-old who pleaded no contest to misdemeanor counts of theft, vandalism and battery after stealing and destroying an anti-abortion poster and injuring a 16-year-old activist, says she’s sorry for some of her actions and hopes to “makes amends through community service.”

An associate professor whose course work, which includes pornography and sex work, has gained her the nickname the “porn professor,” Ms. Miller-Young was set to appear for sentencing today (August 14) before Judge Brian Hill in Santa Barbara County Superior Court.
<<

'Slavery,' pregnancy drove California professor to accost teen pro-lifer, say defenders | Fox News (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/08/15/slavery-pregnancy-drove-california-professor-to-accost-teen-pro-lifer-say/)

[pbkmaine]

Low Teacher Pay And High Teacher Pay Are Both Myths - Forbes (http://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffreydorfman/2014/08/07/low-teacher-pay-and-high-teacher-pay-are-both-myths/)

[B767drvr]

Low Teacher Pay And High Teacher Pay Are Both Myths - Forbes (http://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffreydorfman/2014/08/07/low-teacher-pay-and-high-teacher-pay-are-both-myths/)

>>Overall, the salary data and the supply and demand for teachers suggest that teacher pay is quite fair. The amounts paid do not seem low and the labor market for teachers appears to be in a nearly perfect balance. While it might upset those on both sides of the debate, it appears that teacher pay is in keeping with the tale of Goldilocks: it is not too high, not too low, rather it is just right.
<<

[skyc6]

Again--I will say, if a principal is on his/her game, and starts evaluations in the 1st year of a teacher's career, and sees deficiences, and begins documenting this, it is easy to terminate. In fact, in Illinois a teacher can be terminated after the first year without stated reasons. In the 2nd year, a reason must be given. If it doesn't begin until the 3rd year, remediation has to happen and be evaluated. 4th year the same.
This really shouldn't be that difficult, and really, I never saw that many teachers who weren't really working hard to do a good job and often were not very well appreciated. I hate these conversations because they are always a no win situation.

And, yes, a starting salary should raise 25% or more after 35 years! At least, I would hope so!
.

[GoHawks!]

My question is this:

If teachers are so overpaid, so underworked, and with job security no matter how poor they are or how much effort they put into it (as some have implied), why doesn't everyone want to be a teacher?

[Cedwards38]

Tenure for teachers simply means that you can not be fired except for cause. It typically takes three to four years of evaluation to earn tenure. It was created decades ago because teachers had no protection when a new school board or superintendent came into office and only employed those who supported them in the last election. Teachers would be routinely dismissed and replaced with the supporters, regardless of their performance.

If someone tells you that a tenured teacher can not be fired, then they do not understand the concept. You can fire a tenured teacher, but you must first inform the teacher of their sub par performance, give them an opportunity to correct, and then if it doesn't improve they may be fired. Tenure simply keeps politics out of teacher hiring and evaluation and focuses it on performance.

I was a teacher and school administrator for 30 years, and I've been tenured and I've dismissed the tenured. School administrators who whine that the tenured can not be dismissed are simply too lazy or too cowardly or too stupid to do what is required. My experience is that the unions can not protect an incompetent teacher, though they always try because that is their job.

[George Bieniaszek]

I can't believe anyone would teach in todays climate. The crap from administrators,from state boards of ed. and from the parents whose child is never to blame for anything. And from people who think they know about teaching but really know nothing about the profession. They could not pay me enough to teach and this is what many young people are saying.

My daughter is an English teacher in High School and my jaw drops most times when we ask her "How was your day??" and she tells us. The pressures of the curriculum, demands from parents, integrating special needs students into the classroom with the entourage of aids and assistants along with preparing special assignments to accommodate their learning needs, after school activities, preparing for the next day, correcting, and the list goes on and on.

First day of school this year, her friend who is a teacher at the same high school was discussing the curriculum and getting to know the students when one freshmen student told her that she wanted to be called "Murder". When she refused to call her that, the student then told the teacher to "F-Off".

My daughter and her friend are extremely dedicated to the profession and have said that the teaching profession is extremely rewarding when you get thru the student and make a difference, or you get that note or card in the mail from the parent praising them for the positive change that their child is making.

[tomjbud]

Tenure for teachers simply means that you can not be fired except for cause. It typically takes three to four years of evaluation to earn tenure. It was created decades ago because teachers had no protection when a new school board or superintendent came into office and only employed those who supported them in the last election. Teachers would be routinely dismissed and replaced with the supporters, regardless of their performance.

If someone tells you that a tenured teacher can not be fired, then they do not understand the concept. You can fire a tenured teacher, but you must first inform the teacher of their sub par performance, give them an opportunity to correct, and then if it doesn't improve they may be fired. Tenure simply keeps politics out of teacher hiring and evaluation and focuses it on performance.

I was a teacher and school administrator for 30 years, and I've been tenured and I've dismissed the tenured. School administrators who whine that the tenured can not be dismissed are simply too lazy or too cowardly or too stupid to do what is required. My experience is that the unions can not protect an incompetent teacher, though they always try because that is their job.

Very well said. Tenure does not guarantee lifetime employment, nor does it protect incompetent teachers.

[jbdlfan]

Seems that anytime a discussion on teachers or teaching appear on this discussion board, there are pages upon pages of responses from folks that have not stepped foot in a classroom in years. Stories abound about "experiences" they have heard about. Please..... spend a day in a Title 1 middle or high school these days and dare to say a teacher is over-payed. Many of you wouldn't even drive through the neighborhood that these kids live in let alone spend hours a day with them. Last year alone we had weapons ranging from knives to a grenade, a three-some of sixth graders having sex in the bathroom, drugs, vandalism and even had our FFA sheep attacked with a bow and arrow. This all happened four miles from The Villages border. So many around here are absolutely clueless to what is out there and what needs to be dealt with on a daily basis. I'm not complaining about my job, I love my students and what I do. As most teachers will tell you, it's the adults, including parents and the public, that make our job difficult.

[OBXNana]

Seems that anytime a discussion on teachers or teaching appear on this discussion board, there are pages upon pages of responses from folks that have not stepped foot in a classroom in years. Stories abound about "experiences" they have heard about. Please..... spend a day in a Title 1 middle or high school these days and dare to say a teacher is over-payed. Many of you wouldn't even drive through the neighborhood that these kids live in let alone spend hours a day with them. Last year alone we had weapons ranging from knives to a grenade, a three-some of sixth graders having sex in the bathroom, drugs, vandalism and even had our FFA sheep attacked with a bow and arrow. This all happened four miles from The Villages border. So many around here are absolutely clueless to what is out there and what needs to be dealt with on a daily basis. I'm not complaining about my job, I love my students and what I do. As most teachers will tell you, it's the adults, including parents and the public, that make our job difficult.


Bravo! The above is spot on!

Volunteer a couple days a month in a classroom. It is a real eye opener with what a teacher actually does during the course of the day. Donate a box of tissues or hand sanitizer and it will be one less thing the teacher has to pay for out of their pocket. No, I am not a teacher, but have spent many hours as a volunteer.

[RedChariot]

Seems that anytime a discussion on teachers or teaching appear on this discussion board, there are pages upon pages of responses from folks that have not stepped foot in a classroom in years. Stories abound about "experiences" they have heard about. Please..... spend a day in a Title 1 middle or high school these days and dare to say a teacher is over-payed. Many of you wouldn't even drive through the neighborhood that these kids live in let alone spend hours a day with them. Last year alone we had weapons ranging from knives to a grenade, a three-some of sixth graders having sex in the bathroom, drugs, vandalism and even had our FFA sheep attacked with a bow and arrow. This all happened four miles from The Villages border. So many around here are absolutely clueless to what is out there and what needs to be dealt with on a daily basis. I'm not complaining about my job, I love my students and what I do. As most teachers will tell you, it's the adults, including parents and the public, that make our job difficult.

We need a like button. Teachers are grossly underpaid. John Q Public keeps chipping away at the benefits that were given to teachers in lieu of higher salaries.Those of you that worked corporate America want your children educated by learned instructors, but you don't want to pay for it. Why anyone would enter a classroom in today's world I can't imagine. Hats off to you that do.

[rjm1cc]

Just trying to follow the logic… right now teachers aren't paid enough and apparently we need to pay more to get the best, brightest, and most highly motivated. THEREFORE, currently we're employing something less than the best and brightest (otherwise why would we need to pay more?)

I think we under estimate what a teacher is paid . Remember to count pension and health insurance that could last as as long as the teacher taught and the pension is based on ending salary. I think you will find teaching in a lot of public school systems paying more than most professions when you total all benefits.

[DougB]

I think we under estimate what a teacher is paid . Remember to count pension and health insurance that could last as as long as the teacher taught and the pension is based on ending salary. I think you will find teaching in a lot of public school systems paying more than most professions when you total all benefits.

See post # 61

[graciegirl]

Wasn't this about teachers getting tenure?

I think it is well established that most people of our age respect the job of teaching and are deeply grateful that they had good teachers and their children had good teachers and that most teachers are dedicated, prepared, professional, hard working, caring and face impossible expectations, because some children are not able despite all dedicated efforts to meet the standards of the state.

The job of teaching has had extreme change with FAR less respect from families and students and not much back up from administration. Classrooms are full of so many different children from different environments and so much time is needed to control wayward behavior. Teachers are faced with extremely diverse economic situations and horrific family and social problems that must be reported. Children are sent to school sick and hungry and abused. Teachers cannot do much about bullying although they are forced to witness it's effects. Teachers aren't allowed to teach ethics other than school rules and it has become a very unrewarding job for many.


But that being said. few jobs are guaranteed and rightfully so. And ALL jobs have challenges, great and small and that is the reason that people are paid to do them. Stress is part of life. One must choose which stressful job to have with no guarantees of keeping it. It is the new American way. Sadly...people have changed.

[sunnyatlast]

Seems that anytime a discussion on teachers or teaching appear on this discussion board, there are pages upon pages of responses from folks that have not stepped foot in a classroom in years. Stories abound about "experiences" they have heard about. Please..... spend a day in a Title 1 middle or high school these days and dare to say a teacher is over-payed. Many of you wouldn't even drive through the neighborhood that these kids live in let alone spend hours a day with them. Last year alone we had weapons ranging from knives to a grenade, a three-some of sixth graders having sex in the bathroom, drugs, vandalism and even had our FFA sheep attacked with a bow and arrow. This all happened four miles from The Villages border. So many around here are absolutely clueless to what is out there and what needs to be dealt with on a daily basis. I'm not complaining about my job, I love my students and what I do. As most teachers will tell you, it's the adults, including parents and the public, that make our job difficult.

Thank you!!!!!!!!! Keep writing!

[gatherer47]

The people who complain about tenure,salary,pensions etc.should give it a try.Most wouldn't last ten minutes on the job.I don't apologize to the "anti-teacher crowd" about my salary,excellent pension,summers off,etc.I did my job and did it well. And I repeat tenure is just a word-if they want rid of you for poor performance,they'll find a way.I have no problem with that either!

[KeepingItReal]

Seems that anytime a discussion on teachers or teaching appear on this discussion board, there are pages upon pages of responses from folks that have not stepped foot in a classroom in years. Stories abound about "experiences" they have heard about. Please..... spend a day in a Title 1 middle or high school these days and dare to say a teacher is over-payed. Many of you wouldn't even drive through the neighborhood that these kids live in let alone spend hours a day with them. Last year alone we had weapons ranging from knives to a grenade, a three-some of sixth graders having sex in the bathroom, drugs, vandalism and even had our FFA sheep attacked with a bow and arrow. This all happened four miles from The Villages border. So many around here are absolutely clueless to what is out there and what needs to be dealt with on a daily basis. I'm not complaining about my job, I love my students and what I do. As most teachers will tell you, it's the adults, including parents and the public, that make our job difficult.


o·ver·pay
ˌōvərˈpā/Submit verb
past tense: overpaid; past participle: overpaid
pay (someone) too highly.
"many fans think our top players are overpaid"
pay (money) in excess of what is due.
"to overpay taxes"

:ho:

Many jobs today have ever increasing challenges. My former job required my technicians and myself to go into all types of neighborhoods at all hours of the night to the point we could not go alone for our safety. We were the strangers that were not trusted on their turf, targets for robberies and violence, and I was not in law enforcement. After retiring I did spend 2010-2011 in a middle school environment tutoring math with mostly Title 1 students. There are plenty of those that want to cause trouble and there are challenges to deal with but anymore there are few places we can go without running into these same behaviors. Some of the teachers worked really hard and some did not just as the workers in about any other profession. Some teachers came in after the students had arrived in the building and were on their way home before the students that had boarded a bus were even off the premises in the afternoon. Again some stay late and some don't, just like most any other profession.