UK response to ISIS

[kittygilchrist]

BBC News - David Cameron outlines new anti-terror measures to MPs (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-29008316)

Apparently UK response takes threat to civilians worth attention. Should US consider action?

[janmcn]

BBC News - David Cameron outlines new anti-terror measures to MPs (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-29008316)

Apparently UK response takes threat to civilians worth attention. Should US consider action?

Apparently our congress (unlike the British) doesn't consider the issue important enough to cut its vacation short and come back to Washington to debate the use of military force.

[billethkid]

our system of politics does not include the citizenry as it does in the UK and many other countries of the civilized world.

Our politicians priorities, all of them, is getting re-elected and making sure thier donors and special interest groups are taken care of or not offended.

On the other hand we the people here are much more tolerable of the governments failings as evidenced by the continual re-election of do nothing, politics as usual, law makers. And all elected officials rely on the apathy and non reaction of the American people.....THEY COUNT ON IT and are rarely disappointed.

We the people get what we deserve/allow.

[graciegirl]

Apparently our congress (unlike the British) doesn't consider the issue important enough to cut its vacation short and come back to Washington to debate the use of military force.


Apparently our president has not had a class on MS&T.

The UK is seizing passports of suspected terrorists. We are past baby games in this issue. We need to quit being politically correct and deal with this issue instead of tip toeing around it.

[rubicon]

BTK addressed my take on this issue. To expand further I believe it is a material conflict of interest for a politician to put forth his/her interests (being elected or reelected) before the demands of voters and it reinforces the need for term limits. The only way that is going to happen is if a national referendum were on the ballot forcing by law political candidates to stipulate to term limits. finding a politician to agree to proposing such a referendum

This conflict of interest not only violates the Constitution but by virtue of the fact that politicians are protecting their own interest they are neglecting important strategies to protect this country.

[billethkid]

BTK addressed my take on this issue. To expand further I believe it is a material conflict of interest for a politician to put forth his/her interests (being elected or reelected) before the demands of voters and it reinforces the need for term limits. The only way that is going to happen is if a national referendum were on the ballot forcing by law political candidates to stipulate to term limits. finding a politician to agree to proposing such a referendum

This conflict of interest not only violates the Constitution but by virtue of the fact that politicians are protecting their own interest they are neglecting important strategies to protect this country.

Simply stated!!!:BigApplause:

[Moderator]

Please stay on topic of US/UK response to ISIS .... the majority of the posts thus far discuss general political process. If this continues, the thread will be closed.

[kittygilchrist]

Not much you can say here is there?

[graciegirl]

I remember a popular song when I was a little girl, when the US and the UK were fighting the Nazi's.

you tube. praise the lord and pass the ammunition - Bing Videos (http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=you+tube.+praise+the+lord+and+pass+the+am munition&FORM=VIRE4#view=detail&mid=CD199A6754AAED3AB766CD199A6754AAED3AB766)


I so believe in being allowed to say what is in our hearts. That is what freedom is.

[graciegirl]

I thought this thread was closed. I didn't sleep well last night I thought about the second young man slain on camera so the film could be sent to the world, but particularly us.

The United Kingdom is trying to deal with this realistically. They are taking passports from suspected terrorists. Which means of course that they are profiling.

PLEASE do not bring up the crusades. This is NOW and we are in real danger; every man, woman and child in the U.S. who is not Muslim and maybe those peaceful Muslims too.

And I just said don't bring up history, but last night as I was unable to sleep, I kept thinking...Nero fiddles while Rome burns.

[Rags123]

1. The President does have the constitutional authority to call congress into session if he feels it is important.

http://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/resources/pdf/ExtraSessions.pdf

2. Congress is asking for action and plans despite on recess.

"In the wake of ISIS’s latest alleged killing of an American journalist, leading lawmakers from both parties are calling for a bigger role in the U.S. war against the terrorist group.

Leading lawmakers in charge of foreign policy reacted Tuesday to the reported beheading of American journalist Steven Sotloff by increasing their calls for more congressional involvement and oversight of President Obama’s war on ISIS.

The latest apparent ISIS atrocity against an American citizen added to the congressional anger at the Obama administration for what many critics call an incomplete and unclear plan to confront the group both in Iraq and Syria, ....."

After Steven Sotloff Murder, Congress Demands a Vote on Obama (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/09/02/after-steven-sotloff-murder-congress-demands-a-vote-on-obama-s-isis-war.html)

I, frankly, support the President insuring a master plan is together....that is based on the premise that he will have a plan to first of all as is his JOB....secure the borders here to insure the threat does not reach our shores. This is his first and primary job and it concerns me greatly that there is no more said about this.

Also, despite those who professed here yesterday that the middle east and Iraq specifically was a calm nice place prior to our invasion of 2003, this violence in the area has been going on for centuries......Iraq has invaded countries, used gas on its citizens, etc well before we even saw the lights of Baghdad. Syria has been killing its own children for years now. Point is that this violence is not new and our threats are not going to scare anyone away.

Secure our country first in a serious and meaningful way and do it so everyone is aware we are doing it.

Then come together and decide even though it will not get votes, the best thing FOR OUR COUNTRY is a long term commitment of some kind to insure that these radical groups cannot get a foothold. As I said many times...we live in a very small world now, and the protection of our country is now something that does not stop at our borders.

In my opinion, we cannot walk away from this. This region has been bloody and dangerous for so many years.....we need a presence there, even if we do not like that idea. Our absence is, has, will cause so many vacuums for these groups to fill that it will become so much more dangerous. And, trust me...these groups WILL COME HERE FIRST CHANCE. If you do not believe that....if you believe we can live in this modern world as on an island, well.....I just do not know what to say.

This being added later...the above is long term and must be supplemented by saying that we need to raise h.ll at the UN..I am not speaking of making statements but a real firestorm of demands for action. The support I give to the President is on the assumption he is putting together a coalition much like we did when Iraq invaded Kuwait and President GW Bush was able to put together a coalition. This particular coalition will require a lot more freedom of action and thus becomes a bit more difficult.

In the mean time...use the allowance in Iraq to bomb whatever ISIS locations into obliviion. Get Iraq back under control and then concentrate on Syria, which is much more tricky at this point.

[Boudicca]

Response to Graciegirl
I too had a restless and sleepless night due my thoughts repeatedly "replaying" the barbaric acts being perpetrated by ISIS with impunity. Beheading, crucifixion and other horrific ways by which to kill their enemies underscores ISIS contempt for "non believers". This tidal wave of death and destruction is headed our way, and my sleeplessness was driven by fear and a feeling of helplessness. Sadly, I sense our country is adrift with no solution to this horror. "Leader" in the dictionary is : a person or thing that leads. and a guiding or directing head, as of an army, movement, or political group. Think what is to come in a very few years. A mere 30 years ago, terrorism was something which occurred "somewhere else", certainly not in America. What do we have to "look forward to" in the next 30 years. With many of us being in our sixties, our futures do not look as bright and shining, carefree and comfortable as we once thought.

[graciegirl]

Response to Graciegirl
I too had a restless and sleepless night due my thoughts repeatedly "replaying" the barbaric acts being perpetrated by ISIS with impunity. Beheading, crucifixion and other horrific ways by which to kill their enemies underscores ISIS contempt for "non believers". This tidal wave of death and destruction is headed our way, and my sleeplessness was driven by fear and a feeling of helplessness. Sadly, I sense our country is adrift with no solution to this horror available to us. "Leader" in the dictionary is : a person or thing that leads. and a guiding or directing head, as of an army, movement, or political group. Think what is to come in a very few years. A mere 30 years ago, terrorism was something which occurred "somewhere else", certainly not in America. What do we have to "look forward to" in the next 30 years. With many of us being in our sixties, our futures do not look as bright and shining, carefree and comfortable as we once thought.


I understand your feelings Sandra. I kept thinking about the images I saw awhile back of Muslims blocking traffic in London. And wonder why?

http://www.bnp.org.uk/sites/default/files/images/muslims-praying-ilegally-in-paris-streets.jpg

[Boudicca]

In the UK (and USA) officials are elected by their constituants and represent the wishes of that community. Thus the majority populace legally elect their own officials. Sharia Law is now adopted into the British Legal system. Some cities legally bar non believers from entering those designated areas posted with "Sharia Law

Islamic law is adopted by British legal chiefs - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/10716844/Islamic-law-is-adopted-by-British-legal-chiefs.html)

This is a factual response to a question raised on this thread of "why" and is not a slur or insult aimed at anyone. To quote Rodney King "Why can't we all just get along"

[nitehawk]

I understand your feelings Sandra. I kept thinking about the images I saw awhile back of Muslims blocking traffic in London. And wonder why?

http://www.bnp.org.uk/sites/default/files/images/muslims-praying-ilegally-in-paris-streets.jpg

"SLOW DOWN' ---- I am a Muslim and dont like your bashing all Muslims --------- I am asking the moderator to close down this post -----if the same old people who have a great hatred for all Muslims--do not stop bashing ALL Musllims --- I do not hate all Christians

[graciegirl]

"SLOW DOWN' ---- I am a Muslim and dont like your bashing all Muslims --------- I am asking the moderator to close down this post -----if the same old people who have a great hatred for all Muslims--do not stop bashing ALL Musllims --- I do not hate all Christians


Please forgive me for being skeptical.

Many stir the pot posts on here. Many directed at ME particularly.

[Rags123]

Again, hope for meaningful discussion of a topical and important event in today's news and in history is thwarted.

[graciegirl]

Again, hope for meaningful discussion of a topical and important event in today's news and in history is thwarted.


I understand that. It isn't right that some will do anything to stop a topic that is on all of our minds. If you read back on posts from posters who ONLY want to stir the pot, you see the same over and over and over. Disagreement with topics that most people here agree with.

I am going to look up what Contrarian means. And I will bump Sandra's post. By the way Shrandell is an American Citizen born in the U.K.

[graciegirl]

Response to Graciegirl
I too had a restless and sleepless night due my thoughts repeatedly "replaying" the barbaric acts being perpetrated by ISIS with impunity. Beheading, crucifixion and other horrific ways by which to kill their enemies underscores ISIS contempt for "non believers". This tidal wave of death and destruction is headed our way, and my sleeplessness was driven by fear and a feeling of helplessness. Sadly, I sense our country is adrift with no solution to this horror. "Leader" in the dictionary is : a person or thing that leads. and a guiding or directing head, as of an army, movement, or political group. Think what is to come in a very few years. A mere 30 years ago, terrorism was something which occurred "somewhere else", certainly not in America. What do we have to "look forward to" in the next 30 years. With many of us being in our sixties, our futures do not look as bright and shining, carefree and comfortable as we once thought.


bumping back to topic.

[TexaninVA]

"SLOW DOWN' ---- I am a Muslim and dont like your bashing all Muslims --------- I am asking the moderator to close down this post -----if the same old people who have a great hatred for all Muslims--do not stop bashing ALL Musllims --- I do not hate all Christians

Posting a picture that shows the reality is a reason to close down the thread? A reaction like that is symptomatic of the problem.

[zonerboy]

Re Gracie:
Sometimes I just really wish this site had a "like" button, a la Facebook!

[billethkid]

"SLOW DOWN' ---- I am a Muslim and dont like your bashing all Muslims --------- I am asking the moderator to close down this post -----if the same old people who have a great hatred for all Muslims--do not stop bashing ALL Musllims --- I do not hate all Christians

As a Muslim may we hear your views on the recent ISIS beheading of Americans?
And their intent to do more as well as killing as many Americans as they can?

[Boudicca]

Still waiting for a reply BTK?...

[nitehawk]

Posting a picture that shows the reality is a reason to close down the thread? A reaction like that is symptomatic of the problem.

Thank You

[sunnyatlast]

Posting a picture that shows the reality is a reason to close down the thread? A reaction like that is symptomatic of the problem.

Thank You

I think TexaninVA's point was regarding the desire to close down the thread as a reaction to posting a picture that speaks a thousand words.

[ron122049]

Apparently our president has not had a class on MS&T.

The UK is seizing passports of suspected terrorists. We are past baby games in this issue. We need to quit being politically correct and deal with this issue instead of tip toeing around it.

I ABSOLUTELY AGREE with you. It's amazing to me that our leaders are so completely unprepared and caught off guard on this subject. As it so happens I watched a show on Cinemax last night called THE UNTOLD HISTORY OF THE UNITED STATES. It was very interesting to see the negative portrayal of both of our last 2 presidents on foreign policy issues. Take a look if you get a chance. I guess thats what we get when we have no objective criteria for candidates for public office in order to qualify to run.

[billethkid]

As a Muslim may we hear your views on the recent ISIS beheading of Americans?
And their intent to do more as well as killing as many Americans as they can?

The silence is deafening!

[Rags123]

The silence is deafening!


Methinks that post was one of those used on this site to derail adult conversation if subject is drifting contrary to those of their "affiliations" !

Kudos to admin for trying to allow adult conversation on current events as long as possible in the face of people becoming "flamers" in lieu of having honest, non affiliated conversations.

[Rags123]

Keep in mind that while we all concentrate on Iraq and Syria, that the evil and turmoil is world wide.

This is VERY scary....in Libya....commercial airplanes taken by terrorists....I am not by nature an alarmist, but wonder why not much is being made in the USA about this...the media I am speaking of...

"Libyan Islamist rebels pose with planes seized from Tripoli airport as U.S. officials warn they could be used to carry out terrorist attack on 9/11 anniversary"

Read more: Pictured: Libyan Islamist rebels pose with planes seized from Tripoli airport as U.S. officials warn they could be used to carry out terrorist attack on 9/11 anniversary | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2741428/Officials-warn-ELEVEN-missing-airplanes-Libya-used-carry-terrorist-attack-9-11-anniversary.html#ixzz3CH67Kwx4)
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

"September 11 not only marks the anniversary of the attacks on the World Trade Center but it will also be the second anniversary of the raid of the U.S. Ambassador's compound in Benghazi, Libya.

Four Americans were killed in the attack, including U.S. Ambassador Christopher Stevens.

Ansar al-Shariah, the group Washington holds responsible for the attack, have also seized parts of the Libyan capital and are known to work with terrorists from ISIS."

[sunnyatlast]

I ABSOLUTELY AGREE with you. It's amazing to me that our leaders are so completely unprepared and caught off guard on this subject. As it so happens I watched a show on Cinemax last night called THE UNTOLD HISTORY OF THE UNITED STATES. It was very interesting to see the negative portrayal of both of our last 2 presidents on foreign policy issues. Take a look if you get a chance. I guess thats what we get when we have no objective criteria for candidates for public office in order to qualify to run.

I haven't seen this but I read the reviews/ratings on imdb.com and I intend to watch it. I like facts just as any other thinking person should. HOWEVER,

I see in the reviewers 10-star reviews this burning desire to DIVIDE us all--half on the left and half on the right--and mockery with the words "hey all you rush-bots" etc. shows the obvious slant and agenda with which the series was made. The synopses say that this exposes BOTH partisan sides' guilt, but I think we know Oliver Stone's slant. That said,

When are people going to wake up and heed what Lincoln and other forefathers of this great nation said, based on the admonition so aptly recorded in the words of Christ in the Gospel of Mark, and reiterated in Lincoln's most famous speech and passage:

"The best-known passage of Lincoln's speech is:

A house divided against itself cannot stand. I believe this government cannot endure, permanently, half slave and half free."

"Origins of the phrase "House Divided"

In Mark 3:25, Jesus states, "And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand", in response to the scribes' claim that "by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils."

Also, in the gospel of Matthew 12:25, KJV:

25 And Je'sus knew their thoughts, and said unto him, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:

Thomas Hobbes, in his 1651 Leviathan (Chapter 18), stated that, "a kingdom divided in itself cannot stand."

In Thomas Paine's 1776 Common Sense, his description of the composition of Monarchy, "this hath all the distinctions of a house divided against itself . . ."

During the War of 1812 a line appeared in a letter from Abigail Adams to Mercy Otis Warren: "... A house divided upon itself - and upon that foundation do our enemies build their hopes of subduing us."

The "house divided" phrase had been used by Lincoln himself in another context in 1843.

Most famously, eight years before Lincoln's speech, during the Senate debate on the Compromise of 1850, Sam Houston had proclaimed: "A nation divided against itself cannot stand."
(wikipedia)

STOP trying to divide us or we'll all hang together as "The Exterminated"!
------

We must, indeed, all hang together or, most assuredly, we shall all hang separately.

Benjamin Franklin

[bimmertl]

That's the answer, seize the passports of US citizens suspected of being terrorists. That would have stopped Douglas McAuthur McCain from San Diego, from joining ISIS and being killed last week. Certainly a known terrorist name by any account.

Last count I saw was 120 US bombing missions on ISIS. How many have the Brits flown? They have more UK citizens in ISIS than we do and say there is an imminent threat to the UK. So they are grabbing passports? Big deal. Don't they have the RAF?

As disgusting as the death of 2 Americans is, ISIS has killed thousands of people in their reign of terror. The vast majority are Muslims. So how do you feel about that? Ratio probably 800 to1 Muslims versus US citizens killed.

I slept extremely well last night!

[graciegirl]

Most of us are appropriately concerned. I imagine that the villager whose grandson was killed in the Boston Marathon bombing and whose little granddaughter had her leg blown off did not rest well.

[Rags123]

That's the answer, seize the passports of US citizens suspected of being terrorists. That would have stopped Douglas McAuthur McCain from San Diego, from joining ISIS and being killed last week. Certainly a known terrorist name by any account.

Last count I saw was 120 US bombing missions on ISIS. How many have the Brits flown? They have more UK citizens in ISIS than we do and say there is an imminent threat to the UK. So they are grabbing passports? Big deal. Don't they have the RAF?

As disgusting as the death of 2 Americans is, ISIS has killed thousands of people in their reign of terror. The vast majority are Muslims. So how do you feel about that? Ratio probably 800 to1 Muslims versus US citizens killed.

I slept extremely well last night!


If the nationality of those murdered is the single most important thing to prompt action then we can relax until they get to us I suppose. WOW..no more worrying about the children of the world being murdered...Russia/Ukraine is not a problem any longer. We just wait until it is our turn.

And those christians murdered by them I suppose you are counting as Muslims to make your point ?

Thanks

[buggyone]

I would most certainly think that all US government facilities worldwide - and the military - are prepared for anything that may come on this Sept. 11 and will be standing by on the highest alert levels.

The NSA and other agencies will be listening to increased chatter levels and hopefully be prepared. It is not a good idea, in my opinion, to let it be known to the general public that increased chatter has been detected or how preparations are being made. Too much information gives the enemy the information, too.

If you still can't sleep, take an Ambien - but only one! :faint:

[Boudicca]

"I would most certainly think that all US government facilities worldwide - and the military - are prepared for anything that may come on this Sept. 11 and will be standing by on the highest alert levels. "
Wish I shared your confidence...historically our enemies have struck in the most original and dare I say unexpected/unanticipated ways imaginable. Time will tell

[Bogie Shooter]

"I would most certainly think that all US government facilities worldwide - and the military - are prepared for anything that may come on this Sept. 11 and will be standing by on the highest alert levels. "
Wish I shared your confidence...historically our enemies have struck in the most original and dare I say unexpected/unanticipated ways imaginable. Time will tell

This does not make sense. We are not being prepared? Yet are enemies strike in unexpected/unanticipated ways.........how do we prepare for that?
What do you propose? Or are you just rambling?

[Boudicca]

My post begins with "wish I shared your confidence ".

[samhass]

our system of politics does not include the citizenry as it does in the UK and many other countries of the civilized world.

Our politicians priorities, all of them, is getting re-elected and making sure thier donors and special interest groups are taken care of or not offended.

On the other hand we the people here are much more tolerable of the governments failings as evidenced by the continual re-election of do nothing, politics as usual, law makers. And all elected officials rely on the apathy and non reaction of the American people.....THEY COUNT ON IT and are rarely disappointed.

We the people get what we deserve/allow.

Well said, BTK.

[Rags123]

///

[samhass]

As I read this thread, I see folks who are afraid....I see folks who choose to make light of that....I see folks who think that fear is the problem, not ISIS or any other group.

When something happens in the world that shocks us and awakens fear, we just automatically look to our leaders.

The common thread here is LACK of that leadership. Our President today sent mixed signals...saying at a press conference that we want to "degrade and destroy" the terror group -- but then said he wants to make it a "manageable problem." The Defense Secy is clear that we want to "destroy" ISIS, and we surely do not want to "contain" this group. Congress, even though it seems we want to blame them, can do NOTHING until they receive a plan to address and they have not yet received that.....even though they are calling for one.

and hearing things and looking for SOMEONE to step up....and lead.

Lessons learned in Iraq in 2003, no doubt, keeps us from rushing in...that is a good thing. BUT, until we get our act together....

Leadership is not about the next election, it's about the next generation.

Simon Sinek


Yes, leadership is about the next generation, but it is also about now. I am counting on this POTUS to execute a well thought out plan that considers all contingencies and exit strategies.
Germany is arming the Kurds. Al Qaeda has no use for ISIS, and world opinion is against them and their cause. I would not risk one more American soldier for these radicals that have fought for centuries. We have sent our troops into slaughter and trauma for people unwilling to stop ideological/theological wars amongst themselves. When will it end? It is so tempting to send in a Minotaur IV with an exciting payload and be done with it. Glass the place. Unfortunately, this scenario would only cause others to rise up to resume the fight. All we can do is hope that the think tanks can work out a solution for this horrible mess...if there is a solution.

[billethkid]

Posts like this will get/should get, this thread closed!
How much more political can it get?

How is it possible for a subject of this nature to be discussed if ANY reference is labeled political.

I am glad the admin has allowed these discussions to continue as much as they have.

I am also glad they do not respond to the onsey/twosey that request a thread be closed when their personal aspect MAY be affected.

Facts of any matter do cross one or another's alignment, however the discussion needs to be continued to allow understanding and educating.

Some of us need to be able to discuss those things in the world that may affect us all at some time in the near future. Put away the red or the blue flag waving and let's DEBATE what we think we know. And be adult enough to take as well as recieve without crying foul!!

NO STRUGGLE.....NO PROGRESS!!!!

[Polar Bear]

Personally, I think this thread has done a reasonably good job of steering clear of pure politics. Discussion of meaningful issues that have real, significant effects on the world does not automatically equate to politics.

Most times politics is the furthest thing from reality. The ISIS threat is very real.

[Chi-Town]

Weighing in a little late on this as golf and dinner beckoned.
Besides the usual back and forth what caught my attention is when a Muslim took umbrage at a photo of an overflow crowd praying outside their house of worship being portrayed in a negative way and then being badgered does not seem what Americans are all about.

[Christine G]

Watch BBC World News or BBC online and then you will have the unbiased stuff, straight from the horse's mouth so to speak. Nothing distorted for television viewing, PM Cameron gave a strong speech and let the public know what is happening, and that is how it should be.

[sunnyatlast]

Weighing in a little late on this as golf and dinner beckoned.
Besides the usual back and forth what caught my attention is when a Muslim took umbrage at a photo of an overflow crowd praying outside their house of worship be being portrayed in a negative way and then being badgered does not seem what Americans are all about.

How is blocking traffic in London while waving the Al Qaeda flag not "negative"?

And how are they not "badgering" Jews and other non-muslims with this??

July 29, 2014 -- London: Anti-Israel Muslims block traffic, wave al-Qaeda flag

London: Anti-Israel Muslims block traffic... (http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/07/london-anti-israel-muslims-block-traffic-wave-al-qaeda-flag)

[Sophie11]

I have a question for the person who's religion is muslim - Does it say in your book, the quran, that everyone whom is not a muslim must be killed?
Are you an American now and if you should kill other muslims will your GOD not like this? Is it in the quran about killing other muslims?
Are you as upset about isis as other Americans or do you feel like they are doing your GODS work.
Just wondering about your religion because I have lived all my life in a Christian nation.

[Sophie11]

The Quran contains at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers for the sake of Islamic rule. I being a believer in the GOD of Abraham is a person that should be frightened of muslims. Why would American muslims be any different when they all go by the same book? Please someone enlighten me as this is all very frightening.

[graciegirl]

I think Sophie that you are right. But fortunately in this case all people do not follow the letter of the law in the practice of their faith.

I think that MOST people take the things that they like from the philosophy that they follow and disregard the things that they don't like.

To be very devout in your faith can make you to be like both Mother Teresa or Osama Bin Laden or that man somewhere in Florida, the minister who burnt the Quran. To be devout means a myriad of things to a lot of people.

I don't know how most Muslims think. I don't know how most Christians thing and I don't know how most Jews think, but I do know how ISIS thinks and I know how I think.

[graciegirl]

Weighing in a little late on this as golf and dinner beckoned.
Besides the usual back and forth what caught my attention is when a Muslim took umbrage at a photo of an overflow crowd praying outside their house of worship being portrayed in a negative way and then being badgered does not seem what Americans are all about.

There was a lot about it in the news. It wasn't outside their church. Here is a picture of it happening in Paris.

http://www.barenakedislam.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/42-26056154.jpg

[Chi-Town]

There was a lot about it in the news. It wasn't outside their church. Here is a picture of it happening in Paris.

http://www.barenakedislam.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/42-26056154.jpg
GG, Just go back and look at the picture you posted. Above the entrance it says "Mosquee Adda 'wa which is in Paris.

[buggyone]

The Quran contains at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers for the sake of Islamic rule. I being a believer in the GOD of Abraham is a person that should be frightened of muslims. Why would American muslims be any different when they all go by the same book? Please someone enlighten me as this is all very frightening.

Why not directly ask a Muslim leader the question? Take a couple of friends and visit the Islamic Center in Clermont which is about a 45 minute drive from The Villages.

[graciegirl]

GG, Just go back and look at the picture you posted. Above the entrance it says "Mosquee Adda 'dawhich is Paris.


That picture was taken in Paris. I was careful to be sure of that.There is a section there just like China town in Chicago.

Here is a picture to be fair of other people clogging the streets in
http://metrouk2.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/ay_107042114.jpg

Italy . I think they are Catholics like me. Lot of street clogging going on.

[Chi-Town]

That picture was taken in Paris. I was careful to be sure of that.There is a section there just like China town in Chicago.

Here is a picture to be fair of other people clogging the streets in
http://metrouk2.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/ay_107042114.jpg

Italy . I think they are Catholics like me. Lot of street clogging going on.
I know we're a little off topic but here is a famous clogged street photo from 100 years ago.

44640

[Sophie11]

Yes, either you have faith in your religion or you pick and choose what you like.
Jesus is the way the TRUTH and the life. Mother Teresa never killed anyone and her life on earth made a better planet.
The truth is we are a Christian nation - how many Christian churches are in our cities, towns and rural roads of America?

[graciegirl]

On the subject of Islamic terrorists, and other countries, CNN just reported that Al Qaeda is saying they are planning to go to India.

Al Qaeda says it's opening branch in India - CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/04/world/asia/al-qaeda-india/index.html?hpt=hp_t2&ncid=webmail18)

India is predominantly Hindu, a very peaceful religion.

[sunnyatlast]

Is THIS what we're supposed to sit like fools and wait for in our streets and tunnels?

Is THIS what we'll allow to show our gratitude to all the veterans and active military who've sacrificed life and limb for our freedoms?

July 29, 2014 -- London: Anti-Israel Muslims block traffic, wave al-Qaeda flag

London: Anti-Israel Muslims block traffic... (http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/07/london-anti-israel-muslims-block-traffic-wave-al-qaeda-flag)[/QUOTE]

[graciegirl]

Just like BarryRX. I have perimeters to my beliefs. I don't want to be sucked into a hate movement, I want to be AWARE of what is happening now and try to digest it.

If we start to argue religion, we get off focus of what is happening. The goal of ISIS is to kill all people who do not think like them. Al Qaeda is just as opposed to us. And so is Hamas. They are extreme and we are their target.

[Rags123]

For anyone interested.......

"'Deviant and Pathological': What Do ISIS Extremists Really Want?"

'Deviant and Pathological': What Do ISIS Extremists Really Want? - NBC News (http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/isis-terror/deviant-pathological-what-do-isis-extremists-really-want-n194136)

"What Does ISIS Want, Exactly? The Terrorists' Stated Goal Has Been Made Clear"

Bustle (http://www.bustle.com/articles/38192-what-does-isis-want-exactly-the-terrorists-stated-goal-has-been-made-clear)

[buggyone]

Yes, either you have faith in your religion or you pick and choose what you like.
Jesus is the way the TRUTH and the life. Mother Teresa never killed anyone and her life on earth made a better planet.
The truth is we are a Christian nation - how many Christian churches are in our cities, towns and rural roads of America?

That is one way to think of it.

[kittygilchrist]

En route to tel aviv..just praying...

[PennBF]

Anyone who has ever stayed in London by the Marble Arch can appreciate the problem the UK faces. In that area you would have a hard time telling if you were in Iran or London. It is all Muslims. The UK faces serious problems when it comes to Muslims who want to kill Christians. :rant-rave:

[Rags123]

I posted a few links on the ISIS philosophy, which if you read are very interesting concerning the caliphate's, etc.

I did just a bit of research on how the Muslim world perceives this situation, since from I can see, nobody in our media is covering that aspect (could have missed it)

From the Islamic Monthly......


"Dear ISIS & Abu Bakr Al-Baghdadi,

You are not “The Islamic State.”

There is nothing Islamic about beheading foreign journalists, indiscriminately targeting religious minorities and instilling wanton terror within the general civilian population where your terrorist thugs operate.

As I mentioned during a July 2012 CNN television interview, you are so crazy that even Al-Qaeda’s leader Ayman Al-Zawahiri has distanced himself from the actions of your terrorist organization.

Seriously, you know that you’re a bunch of lunatics when even Al-Qaeda says that you are too ‘cray-cray’ for their taste."

Let (http://www.theislamicmonthly.com/lets-call-isis-the-un-islamic-state/)

From ONISLAM.NET



"
CAIRO – India Sunni and Shiite Muslims have united against the rise of Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISL), asserting that the actions of destroying holy sites, supporting sectarianism and divisions between Muslim groups cannot be attributed to a true Islamic state.


India Muslims Rise Up Against ISIL - Asia-Pacific - News - OnIslam.net (http://www.onislam.net/english/news/asia-pacific/476353-india-muslims-rise-up-against-isil.html)

I will never understand our media and the attempt to control our thinking. There are always two sides to every story and you cannot judge or decide hearing only one side. This is not a defense of anyone, but we need to understand both sides.

[TexaninVA]

I would most certainly think that all US government facilities worldwide - and the military - are prepared for anything that may come on this Sept. 11 and will be standing by on the highest alert levels.

The NSA and other agencies will be listening to increased chatter levels and hopefully be prepared. It is not a good idea, in my opinion, to let it be known to the general public that increased chatter has been detected or how preparations are being made. Too much information gives the enemy the information, too.

If you still can't sleep, take an Ambien - but only one! :faint:

I agree with all three points that you make ...

However, we can't play defense forever. The longer we wait, the harder it gets. ISIS needs to be destroyed. If (and it's a big if) we have the will we can do it. Right now, the will does not exist.

[billethkid]

I agree with all three points that you make ...

However, we can't play defense forever. The longer we wait, the harder it gets. ISIS needs to be destroyed. If (and it's a big if) we have the will we can do it. Right now, the will does not exist.

The longer we wait the bigger the price we will pay in both American lives and all the lives in the middle east as they grow stonger and richer and more bold than they are now.
They have absolutely no fear of being interfeared with by us. All they have to do is watch the daily news here and know the current administration is not about to do ANYTHING.

ISSA is obviously not a priority. All tha needs to be done is tell the military to contain ISSA wher they are. Also adopt the UK LEAD by watching the borders (:1rotfl::1rotfl:) and not let the Americans who have been to Syria and other known terror training grounds back into this country. Next those Americans who are here and openly bragging they support ISSA, either put them on a plane to Syria without a passport OR send the to Gitmo for the duration.

This would require some planning and a strategy (:1rotfl:). But we will wait until there is an attack on our home ground then do the usual knee jerk reaction still witout a plan as usual.

[TexaninVA]

But we will wait until there is an attack on our home ground then do the usual knee jerk reaction still witout a plan as usual.

Unfortunately, this is the de facto strategy ... wait until we're attacked and then do something. I call it the "ostrich strategy." That's impeachable in my view ... and if an attack occurs, it will become a groundswell across the spectrum.

[janmcn]

Unfortunately, this is the de facto strategy ... wait until we're attacked and then do something. I call it the "ostrich strategy." That's impeachable in my view ... and if an attack occurs, it will become a groundswell across the spectrum.

Are you talking about September 11, 2001 when we did nothing until we were attacked? And who should be impeached?

[TexaninVA]

Are you talking about September 11, 2001 when we did nothing until we were attacked? And who should be impeached?

Apples and oranges ... there was no specific, actionable intelligence at the time (I'm referring to the President's Daily Briefing ... which I've read since it was declassified later on). There was no way to do prevent it. The same conditions applied to President Clinton ... I'm not trying to make this partisan.

I think you will agree that the threat level today from ISIS is clear and direct. Or maybe you don't? in addition, when the current President says he has no strategy, that means (to me) he is not taking the action needed to protect the American people. That is what is impeachable ... especially if a mass casualty attack occurs. That by the way would apply to any president regardless of party. It's a failure of the most important constitutional duty any President has.

[Chi-Town]

When something happens on somebody's watch then there's ownership. Pure and simple.

[billethkid]

When something happens on somebody's watch then there's ownership. Pure and simple.

AND....they own it all on day one....an executive fact of life not subscribed to by way to many folks

[janmcn]

Are you talking about September 11, 2001 when we did nothing until we were attacked? And who should be impeached?

Apples and oranges ... there was no specific, actionable intelligence at the time (I'm referring to the President's Daily Briefing ... which I've read since it was declassified later on). There was no way to do prevent it. The same conditions applied to President Clinton ... I'm not trying to make this partisan.

I think you will agree that the threat level today from ISIS is clear and direct. Or maybe you don't? in addition, when the current President says he has no strategy, that means (to me) he is not taking the action needed to protect the American people. That is what is impeachable ... especially if a mass casualty attack occurs. That by the way would apply to any president regardless of party. It's a failure of the most important constitutional duty any President has.

The president's daily briefing on August 6, 2001 said "Al Queda determined to attack US". What could be more clear than that? And the president's response was "okay, you covered your ass, now get out of here". Look it up.

[graciegirl]

The president's daily briefing on August 6, 2001 said "Al Queda determined to attack US". What could be more clear than that? And the president's response was "okay, you covered your ass, now get out of here". Look it up.


Forget about what happened years ago...or one year ago or last week.

See what is happening NOW. OR what is NOT happening now.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

I think that although a lot of people would like to see some kind of action being taken, many are tired of war and are afraid of seeing "boots on the ground" again.

The president has said that the boots on the ground option is off the table. I don't know that he'll be able to keep that promise. But, like his predecessor said, this is a different kind of war. Things will go on every day that the American public will not know about. It will be a war of covert operations and intelligence, more so than any war in the past.

We have a bit of a dichotomy here in that much of the American public doesn't want to see us in another Iraq situation, but they would also feel better if they could see something happening. That "something happening" however, would include video of body bags of American soldiers on the news every night. (We know how much the news media loves to show that.)

The way this war is being waged, (I hope) will not be visible to us. So we will be left with this uncomfortable feeling that nothing is being done.

Neither one of these options makes the American public comfortable.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

The president's daily briefing on August 6, 2001 said "Al Queda determined to attack US". What could be more clear than that? And the president's response was "okay, you covered your ass, now get out of here". Look it up.

It may be clear, but it is very unspecific. In order to take some sort of action, I think that clear, credible and specific information is needed. President Clinton also received this type of report several times and had basically the same response.

"Al Queda determined to attack US". Really? When? Where? How? Are they even capable of doing this?

This type of report was typical and was coming to the president on a daily basis for years. It's like saying that someday, your neighbor is going to punch you in the face.

We had defenses up but no one, up until that time, ever considered the idea that someone would hijack airliners and crash them into buildings.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Apples and oranges ... there was no specific, actionable intelligence at the time (I'm referring to the President's Daily Briefing ... which I've read since it was declassified later on). There was no way to do prevent it. The same conditions applied to President Clinton ... I'm not trying to make this partisan.

I think you will agree that the threat level today from ISIS is clear and direct. Or maybe you don't? in addition, when the current President says he has no strategy, that means (to me) he is not taking the action needed to protect the American people. That is what is impeachable ... especially if a mass casualty attack occurs. That by the way would apply to any president regardless of party. It's a failure of the most important constitutional duty any President has.

Here's what the president actually said regarding our strategy:

I have consulted with Congress throughout this process. I am confident that as Commander-in-Chief I have the authorities to engage in the acts that we are conducting currently. As our strategy develops, we will continue to consult with Congress. And I do think that it will be important for Congress to weigh in, or that our consultations with Congress continue to develop so that the American people are part of the debate.

But I don’t want to put the cart before the horse. We don’t have a strategy yet. I think what I’ve seen in some of the news reports suggests that folks are getting a little further ahead of where we’re at than we currently are. And I think that’s not just my assessment, but the assessment of our military as well. We need to make sure that we’ve got clear plans, that we’re developing them. At that point, I will consult with Congress and make sure that their voices are heard. But there’s no point in me asking for action on the part of Congress before I know exactly what it is that is going to be required for us to get the job done.


Now first, let me state that I am a republican and fairly conservative. I would much have preferred that Mitt Rommey be sitting in that office right now. But, we shouldn't be going off half cocked making mountains out of molehills and trying to twist every little the president says into something that it's not.

As I said in another post, I don't think that we are doing nothing. As President Bush said, we will not see much of what is happening in this war against terror. Mush will be clandestine operation. How many of us saw everything that went into the killing of Osama bin Laden?

I don't think that everything in our entire government, military, and CIA have completely changed because the man in the oval office changes.

Like many of us, I am uncomfortable with not seeing and knowing every step we are taking, but I'm hoping and praying ( and believing) that we are doing something.

[kittygilchrist]

Hey Gang. Kitty..i am in Tel Aviv, to pray.for god's will to http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/aug/07/antisemitism-rise-europe-worst-since-nazis on earth as it is in heaven.

[Sophie11]

I am praying along side of you Kitty!

[Abby10]

Glad to hear you made it safely, Kitty. Praying for you here back home.

[TexaninVA]

The president's daily briefing on August 6, 2001 said "Al Queda determined to attack US". What could be more clear than that? And the president's response was "okay, you covered your ass, now get out of here". Look it up.

Boogie already responded to your point (ie generalized report of a threat in the PDB vs specific actionable intelligence) so I won't repeat it here. I also agree with Chi about if something happens on your watch, you own it. That’s also true. However, let’s not get diverted but rather focus on this thread which is the contrast between the UK and US’s response to the current 2014 Islamic threat.

13 years after 9/11, the threat from Radical Islam is clear to all except those who wish to deny it. That is to say, the threat is objectively true, and especially as manifested in ISIS. It also includes a soon to be nuclear armed Iran. I’m assuming you agree that a clear and present threat to the US from Radical Islam (Shia and Sunni) exists. If not, please speak up because that’s the fundamental assumption for what I’m about to argue next … that if a mass casualty attack now occurs on US soil, it will be an impeachable offense.

My reason for arguing this is the threat is clear, and yet unlike the UK, we have no strategy to deal with it. That is a failure of executive leadership on a major scale, and a dereliction of the constitutional duty for any Commander in Chief to protect the country. This assertion applies to any President, current or future, and regardless of party. It is not meant to be a partisan statement so please don’t make it one.

We are no longer talking about a bunch of rag tag guys living in caves who periodically surface with viable attacks. ISIS controls a large territory, is a de facto state, has captured large amounts of US military equipment, and controls hundreds of millions of dollars with more coming in every day. They have a charismatic leader who has a doctorate in Islamic Studies who views himself as the modern day Caliph. They even produce an annual report and use “metrics.” See this link, but be advised it is most unpleasant to read. Al Qaeda disavowed ISIS as even they thought their methods were too brutal.

ISIS, Inc. ? Jihadists attract investors, fighters with annual reports & glossy PR ? RT News (http://rt.com/news/166920-isis-iraq-offensive-report/)

Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi is their leader. The Washington Post describes him as a “…shrewd strategist, prolific fundraiser and ruthless killer.” He is apparently our generation’s Hitler who, if left unchallenged will only grow stronger.

How ISIS leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi became the world’s most powerful jihadist leader - The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/06/11/how-isis-leader-abu-bakr-al-baghdadi-became-the-worlds-most-powerful-jihadi-leader/)

al-Baghdadi was a US captive and released years ago before people realized what he is truly capable of. His last words to his captors were “ see you in New York.” That’s rather chilling.

The bottom line is … we need an aggressive strategy that emphasizes offense. We need to go after them where they live and not wait for them to attack us where we live. ISIS needs to be destroyed, root and branch, and not “managed.” We need leadership to show us the way to victory and protection from the threat. Do you really disagree with any of that? If so, please explain why.

I also repeat that, given today’s circumstances, should a mass casualty attack or series of attacks occur in the US homeland in 2014 or beyond, any President who fails to protect us will be viewed as deserving of impeachment by pretty much everyone across the ideological spectrum.

[janmcn]

Boogie already responded to your point (ie generalized report of a threat in the PDB vs specific actionable intelligence) so I won't repeat it here. I also agree with Chi about if something happens on your watch, you own it. That’s also true. However, let’s not get diverted but rather focus on this thread which is the contrast between the UK and US’s response to the current 2014 Islamic threat.

13 years after 9/11, the threat from Radical Islam is clear to all except those who wish to deny it. That is to say, the threat is objectively true, and especially as manifested in ISIS. It also includes a soon to be nuclear armed Iran. I’m assuming you agree that a clear and present threat to the US from Radical Islam (Shia and Sunni) exists. If not, please speak up because that’s the fundamental assumption for what I’m about to argue next … that if a mass casualty attack now occurs on US soil, it will be an impeachable offense.

My reason for arguing this is the threat is clear, and yet unlike the UK, we have no strategy to deal with it. That is a failure of executive leadership on a major scale, and a dereliction of the constitutional duty for any Commander in Chief to protect the country. This assertion applies to any President, current or future, and regardless of party. It is not meant to be a partisan statement so please don’t make it one.

We are no longer talking about a bunch of rag tag guys living in caves who periodically surface with viable attacks. ISIS controls a large territory, is a de facto state, has captured large amounts of US military equipment, and controls hundreds of millions of dollars with more coming in every day. They have a charismatic leader who has a doctorate in Islamic Studies who views himself as the modern day Caliph. They even produce an annual report and use “metrics.” See this link, but be advised it is most unpleasant to read. Al Qaeda disavowed ISIS as even they thought their methods were too brutal.

ISIS, Inc. ? Jihadists attract investors, fighters with annual reports & glossy PR ? RT News (http://rt.com/news/166920-isis-iraq-offensive-report/)

Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi is their leader. The Washington Post describes him as a “…shrewd strategist, prolific fundraiser and ruthless killer.” He is apparently our generation’s Hitler who, if left unchallenged will only grow stronger.

How ISIS leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi became the world’s most powerful jihadist leader - The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/06/11/how-isis-leader-abu-bakr-al-baghdadi-became-the-worlds-most-powerful-jihadi-leader/)

al-Baghdadi was a US captive and released years ago before people realized what he is truly capable of. His last words to his captors were “ see you in New York.” That’s rather chilling.

The bottom line is … we need an aggressive strategy that emphasizes offense. We need to go after them where they live and not wait for them to attack us where we live. ISIS needs to be destroyed, root and branch, and not “managed.” We need leadership to show us the way to victory and protection from the threat. Do you really disagree with any of that? If so, please explain why.

I also repeat that, given today’s circumstances, should a mass casualty attack or series of attacks occur in the US homeland in 2014 or beyond, any President who fails to protect us will be viewed as deserving of impeachment by pretty much everyone across the ideological spectrum.

According to your theory that "any president who fails to protect us will be viewed as deserving of impeachment" states clearly that George W Bush should have been impeached.

How about if the residents of TV organize a "war" march at the polo grounds? We could invite all our elected officials and tell them we want to fight the terrorists there so we don't have to fight them here, and we support a big tax increase to pay for this war.

There could also be recruiters at our march so that TV residents could volunteer their sons and daughters and grandchildren to fight in this war.

And don't forget the press. We need all the publicity we can get for our "march" supporting the next war.

[Boudicca]

Well said, Sophie11. your one sentance sums up the feelings Gracie and I share. We hope and pray there really IS a plan going on behind the scenes on the part of our leaders. Kitty, prayers for your safety, also.

[Boudicca]

[COLOR="Blue"]How about if the residents of TV organize a "war" march at the polo grounds? We could invite all our elected officials and tell them we want to fight the terrorists there so we don't have to fight them here, and we support a big tax increase to pay for this war.

There could also be recruiters at our march so that TV residents could volunteer their sons and daughters and grandchildren to fight in this war.[/COLOR
And don't forget the press. We need all the publicity we can get for our "march" supporting the next war.
While not exactly on point comments, Janmcn, I am very proud that we, as a nation, still enjoy the freedom to publically express our feelings about our government.

[quirky3]

I posted a few links on the ISIS philosophy, which if you read are very interesting concerning the caliphate's, etc.

I did just a bit of research on how the Muslim world perceives this situation, since from I can see, nobody in our media is covering that aspect (could have missed it)

From the Islamic Monthly......


"Dear ISIS & Abu Bakr Al-Baghdadi,

You are not “The Islamic State.”

There is nothing Islamic about beheading foreign journalists, indiscriminately targeting religious minorities and instilling wanton terror within the general civilian population where your terrorist thugs operate.

As I mentioned during a July 2012 CNN television interview, you are so crazy that even Al-Qaeda’s leader Ayman Al-Zawahiri has distanced himself from the actions of your terrorist organization.

Seriously, you know that you’re a bunch of lunatics when even Al-Qaeda says that you are too ‘cray-cray’ for their taste."

Let (http://www.theislamicmonthly.com/lets-call-isis-the-un-islamic-state/)

From ONISLAM.NET



"
CAIRO – India Sunni and Shiite Muslims have united against the rise of Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISL), asserting that the actions of destroying holy sites, supporting sectarianism and divisions between Muslim groups cannot be attributed to a true Islamic state.


India Muslims Rise Up Against ISIL - Asia-Pacific - News - OnIslam.net (http://www.onislam.net/english/news/asia-pacific/476353-india-muslims-rise-up-against-isil.html)

I will never understand our media and the attempt to control our thinking. There are always two sides to every story and you cannot judge or decide hearing only one side. This is not a defense of anyone, but we need to understand both sides.

Thank you so much for reinforcing the hugh distinction between the Islamic States and terrorists. It is so important to keep in mind.

[Rags123]

Thank you so much for reinforcing the hugh distinction between the Islamic States and terrorists. It is so important to keep in mind.

I think it is vital to understand what we are talking about. This is not about religion or politics BUT it is important and should be treated seriously and without political comment.

I look forward to listening to the President (I apologize for referencing the CIC, and it is not meant to be political...he IS the CIC) and I do it with some hope that he has been successful in garnering support and recognizes that he must talk to the american people on this.

BUT I do hope others read these links to understand the problem and how it may or may not affect our country.

[TexaninVA]

Whatever the President decides to do will require congressional approval. Our congress will not debate this issue for two weeks. Let's hear from people with top, top, top secret clearances, then before the vote is taken, we can all voice our opinions to our elected representatives.

Nothing to disagree with there about the process, debate etc ... except having worked in that area for many years, I can tell you strategies are always on the table and evolve. Saying you don’t have one is never an acceptable answer. Maybe he misspoke ... let's hope, and Boogie had some good comments here. However, given other factors that imply lack of seriousness, the comment did not build any confidence in my view. My issue with that is, whether misspoken or not, it portrayed confusion and weakness, and that emboldens enemies vs deterring them.

However, more to the point, I get the distinct sense --especially with your most recent comments --that you don't think the threat is significant or real, hence you say wait until the people with clearances speak and the process completes. Or maybe you just feel you don’t have enough information to come to a conclusion. Am I summarizing where you stand on the threat correctly??

[TexaninVA]

I think that although a lot of people would like to see some kind of action being taken, many are tired of war and are afraid of seeing "boots on the ground" again.

The president has said that the boots on the ground option is off the table. I don't know that he'll be able to keep that promise. But, like his predecessor said, this is a different kind of war. Things will go on every day that the American public will not know about. It will be a war of covert operations and intelligence, more so than any war in the past.

We have a bit of a dichotomy here in that much of the American public doesn't want to see us in another Iraq situation, but they would also feel better if they could see something happening. That "something happening" however, would include video of body bags of American soldiers on the news every night. (We know how much the news media loves to show that.)

The way this war is being waged, (I hope) will not be visible to us. So we will be left with this uncomfortable feeling that nothing is being done.

Neither one of these options makes the American public comfortable.

There’s no doubt that all of us are sick of the Middle East, Radical Islam and the whole rotten bunch. No one wants their kids or grandkids to go to war, nor does anyone relish the thought of body counts. No one wants American boots on the ground. I think this is a normal reaction and actually classically American … big oceans, no one can invade us, let’s just live in our isolationist bubble and call it a day.

The problem is what’s it’s always been … there is evil in the world. Whether one is religious or not, it’s just the way the world is and has always been. Evil uncontested will continue to expand, especially if and when it senses weakness … which is the case today by the way. Evil is analogous to a cancerous growth. What usually happens is we avoid the inevitable until it becomes too big (Lusitania, Pearl Harbor, invasion of Kuwait, etc) to ignore anymore and we’re forced to take action. Those who perpetrate evil (Hitler, al-Baghdadi, etc) keep at it until crushed. Not negotiated or managed … crushed as in killed. Just because we think we are not at war, or because we don’t want to be at war, does not mean we can avoid war. ISIS is at war with America whether we like it or want it .. .it doesn’t matter.

As far as clandestine efforts in the war, I certainly support that, and know for a fact it is going on with good effect. But, when all is said and done, it takes Presidential leadership and congressional support to state the objective – plainly and openly --, create a strategy and then persevere until victory occurs, and provide the resources need to win. Think WWII or Gulf War 1991. Regretfully, it will most likely take American troops at some point IMHO.

A final point … there is no excuse for not having a strategy by this point. Strategies will usually evolve which is fine. The intel community has known about ISIS for several years and senior policymakers get briefed on it every day. ISIS is NOT a new development … it just started getting public press when they overran Mosul in June of this year.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

There’s no doubt that all of us are sick of the Middle East, Radical Islam and the whole rotten bunch. No one wants their kids or grandkids to go to war, nor does anyone relish the thought of body counts. No one wants American boots on the ground. I think this is a normal reaction and actually classically American … big oceans, no one can invade us, let’s just live in our isolationist bubble and call it a day.

The problem is what’s it’s always been … there is evil in the world. Whether one is religious or not, it’s just the way the world is and has always been. Evil uncontested will continue to expand, especially if and when it senses weakness … which is the case today by the way. Evil is analogous to a cancerous growth. What usually happens is we avoid the inevitable until it becomes too big (Lusitania, Pearl Harbor, invasion of Kuwait, etc) to ignore anymore and we’re forced to take action. Those who perpetrate evil (Hitler, al-Baghdadi, etc) keep at it until crushed. Not negotiated or managed … crushed as in killed. Just because we think we are not at war, or because we don’t want to be at war, does not mean we can avoid war. ISIS is at war with America whether we like it or want it .. .it doesn’t matter.

As far as clandestine efforts in the war, I certainly support that, and know for a fact it is going on with good effect. But, when all is said and done, it takes Presidential leadership and congressional support to state the objective – plainly and openly --, create a strategy and then persevere until victory occurs, and provide the resources need to win. Think WWII or Gulf War 1991. Regretfully, it will most likely take American troops at some point IMHO.

A final point … there is no excuse for not having a strategy by this point. Strategies will usually evolve which is fine. The intel community has known about ISIS for several years and senior policymakers get briefed on it every day. ISIS is NOT a new development … it just started getting public press when they overran Mosul in June of this year.

It sounds to me that you believe that we are currently doing nothing. I don't think that's the case. President Bush talked about the fact that this was going to be a very kind of war. He said that we often not be aware of things happening. Just because you don't see tanks and missiles and men in uniform shooting bad guys does not mean that we are doing nothing.

This is part of the ongoing war on terror and most of it will be fought behind the scenes by covert operatives. ISIS is just the current battle. We will degrade and destroy them and unfortunately, another radical group will pop up. I really don't think that this is a winnable war. It is more like our war on crime. We know that there will always be crime but we will never stop fighting it. The same goes for terrorism.

Like I said, in some ways a lot of people would feel better if they saw our soldiers on the ground over there. They would feel that we are at least "doing something." But doing something just to do something even if it's the wrong thing would be foolish. It may also be that in a clandestine operation like this, it might be foolish for the president and congress to state it's objectives and strategy plainly and openly. Like I said we may never know what's going on and that will make a lot of us very uncomfortable.

Maybe boots on the ground will have to happen. I personally believe that we are not going to destroy ISIS without boots on the ground at some point but I don't have all of the information. Maybe the Iraqi and Syrian armies can destroy this threat with only our support such as the air strikes that seemed to be pretty effective. That would be ideal. But do't think that just because we don't see ground operations that we are doing nothing.

[TexaninVA]

It sounds to me that you believe that we are currently doing nothing. I don't think that's the case. President Bush talked about the fact that this was going to be a very kind of war. He said that we often not be aware of things happening. Just because you don't see tanks and missiles and men in uniform shooting bad guys does not mean that we are doing nothing.

This is part of the ongoing war on terror and most of it will be fought behind the scenes by covert operatives. ISIS is just the current battle. We will degrade and destroy them and unfortunately, another radical group will pop up. I really don't think that this is a winnable war. It is more like our war on crime. We know that there will always be crime but we will never stop fighting it. The same goes for terrorism.

Like I said, in some ways a lot of people would feel better if they saw our soldiers on the ground over there. They would feel that we are at least "doing something." But doing something just to do something even if it's the wrong thing would be foolish. It may also be that in a clandestine operation like this, it might be foolish for the president and congress to state it's objectives and strategy plainly and openly. Like I said we may never know what's going on and that will make a lot of us very uncomfortable.

Maybe boots on the ground will have to happen. I personally believe that we are not going to destroy ISIS without boots on the ground at some point but I don't have all of the information. Maybe the Iraqi and Syrian armies can destroy this threat with only our support such as the air strikes that seemed to be pretty effective. That would be ideal. But do't think that just because we don't see ground operations that we are doing nothing.

No, I never said nor meant to imply that we are doing nothing. The Intel Community, SOCOM and certainly the US Navy is doing a lot. I also agree that just to “do something” would be foolish …ie see my earlier points about the need to have an effective strategy. I also complete agree that clandestine ops are best left out of the news … something that politicians of both parties always find hard to resist when there’s been a major operational success (eg killing Bin Laden). The problem is publicity reveals sources and methods which should be avoided at all costs because revealing them renders them useless for future ops.

I also think the phrase ‘war on terror’ has always been a misnomer. If you think about it, terror is actually nothing more than a tactic. Bush was afraid to call the war what it is – a war against Radical Islam. A lot of it will need to be done behind the scenes … no disagreement. But, and here’s the rub, if we ever want to win this war we at least need to be honest about it. We need to call it what it really is because the people have to understand that, plus why we’re doing it and why it’s critical. This is where President leadership plays the most prominent role.

To do the job right, IMHO, and in addition to lots of covert action, winning will take full scale military action but this time with the ROE significantly liberalized so that we don’t just defeat ISIS temporarily but liquidate them and the cancerous culture they have spawned. To paraphrase a former President who laid out a simple but effective strategy for winning the Cold War, and with regards to the current War Against Radical Islam, our goal has to be “We win, they lose.”

A final comment … not having a strategy at this point, with ISIS having been around for a year or longer now, is not indicative of a “thoughtful approach” or deliberative consideration of options. (This is obvious since it seems to change in reaction to the news with the latest morphing from “managing ISIS” to “chasing ISIS to the Gates of Hell”). No, the lack of a strategy is dithering and dereliction of duty. The failure to do this puts all of us in danger, with no distinction to party, ideology, race, creed etc. All Americans will be impacted, even if a lot of them don’t realize that yet.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Do you really think that we can "win" this war? The war on terror is the same as the war on crime. It will never be won.

If you want to call it the war on radical Islam go right ahead. It doesn't matter. Crime is not an entity either but we still wage war against it. Radical Islam is not an entity either, it's a mindset. So we're having a war against a mindset if that makes you happy.

As soon as one terrorist group is defeated another one will pop up. This war is ongoing and will never end. It is the state of the world from now on. We don't have a country to defeat. There is no way to define total victory only victory in battles.

As far as not having a strategy, I think that if you and I believe that there has been ongoing activity against these groups then there has been a strategy all along.

ISIS may have been around for a while, in fact they are actually an offshoot of al-Qaeda, but I don't think that anyone believed that they would become so powerful.

[Chi-Town]

With Saddam Hussein gone al Qaeda took advantage of the entryway to Iraq. They morphed onto the Islamic State. Pure and simple. Think Twitter.

[sunnyatlast]

With Saddam Hussein gone al Qaeda took advantage of the entryway to Iraq. They morphed onto the Islamic State. Pure and simple. Think Twitter.

Much too simple, given what was known and spoken by the U.S. at the U.N. Security Council in 2003.

Colin Powell's speech before the U.N. Security Council, Feb. 5, 2003:

"…..POWELL: What you will see is an accumulation of facts and disturbing patterns of behavior. The facts on Iraqis' behavior -- Iraq's behavior demonstrate that Saddam Hussein and his regime have made no effort -- no effort to disarm as required by the international community. Indeed, the facts and Iraq's behavior show that Saddam Hussein and his regime are concealing their efforts to produce more weapons of mass destruction……"

"……..But what I want to bring to your attention today is the potentially much more sinister nexus between Iraq and the Al Qaida terrorist network, a nexus that combines classic terrorist organizations and modern methods of murder. Iraq today harbors a deadly terrorist network headed by Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi, an associate and collaborator of Osama bin Laden and his Al Qaida lieutenants.

Zarqawi, a Palestinian born in Jordan, fought in the Afghan war more than a decade ago. Returning to Afghanistan in 2000, he oversaw a terrorist training camp. One of his specialties and one of the specialties of this camp is poisons. When our coalition ousted the Taliban, the Zarqawi network helped establish another poison and explosive training center camp. And this camp is located in northeastern Iraq.
(Slide 39)

POWELL: You see a picture of this camp.

The network is teaching its operatives how to produce ricin and other poisons. Let me remind you how ricin works. Less than a pinch -- imagine a pinch of salt -- less than a pinch of ricin, eating just this amount in your food, would cause shock followed by circulatory failure. Death comes within 72 hours and there is no antidote, there is no cure. It is fatal……"

Entire Speech Text:

http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/wariniraq/colinpowellunsecuritycouncil.htm


==========================

[Chi-Town]

Much too simple, given what was known and spoken by the U.S. at the U.N. Security Council in 2003.

Colin Powell's speech before the U.N. Security Council, Feb. 5, 2003:

"…..POWELL: What you will see is an accumulation of facts and disturbing patterns of behavior. The facts on Iraqis' behavior -- Iraq's behavior demonstrate that Saddam Hussein and his regime have made no effort -- no effort to disarm as required by the international community. Indeed, the facts and Iraq's behavior show that Saddam Hussein and his regime are concealing their efforts to produce more weapons of mass destruction……"

"……..But what I want to bring to your attention today is the potentially much more sinister nexus between Iraq and the Al Qaida terrorist network, a nexus that combines classic terrorist organizations and modern methods of murder. Iraq today harbors a deadly terrorist network headed by Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi, an associate and collaborator of Osama bin Laden and his Al Qaida lieutenants.

Zarqawi, a Palestinian born in Jordan, fought in the Afghan war more than a decade ago. Returning to Afghanistan in 2000, he oversaw a terrorist training camp. One of his specialties and one of the specialties of this camp is poisons. When our coalition ousted the Taliban, the Zarqawi network helped establish another poison and explosive training center camp. And this camp is located in northeastern Iraq.
(Slide 39)

POWELL: You see a picture of this camp.

The network is teaching its operatives how to produce ricin and other poisons. Let me remind you how ricin works. Less than a pinch -- imagine a pinch of salt -- less than a pinch of ricin, eating just this amount in your food, would cause shock followed by circulatory failure. Death comes within 72 hours and there is no antidote, there is no cure. It is fatal……"

Entire Speech Text:

http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/wariniraq/colinpowellunsecuritycouncil.htm


==========================
Colin Powell backed off that assertion later.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/3909150/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa/t/no-proof-links-iraq-al-qaida-powell-says/

Amazingly he was still promoting the WMD's story.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Colin Powell backed off that assertion later.

Powell: No (http://www.nbcnews.com/id/3909150/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa/t/no-proof-links-iraq-al-qaida-powell-says/)

Amazingly he was still promoting the WMD's story.

Here are some quotes from the link that you posted:

“I have not seen smoking gun, concrete evidence about the connection, but I do believe the connections existed,” he said.

Powell himself made the case most strongly in February, when he urged the U.N. Security Council to back U.S. military action in Iraq. “Iraqi officials deny accusations of ties with al-Qaida,” Powell said then. “These denials are simply not credible.”
Powell defended those comments Thursday, even as he cast doubt on their conclusions. He said that at the time, he was referring specifically to the presence of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi in Baghdad for medical treatments.

A terrorist organization existed in Iraq at the time under a different name. It was then thought to be an arm of al-Qaeda. When Sadaam was ousted this organization changed it's name to "al-Qaeda in Iraq."

Powell never denied the facts themselves. He only said that the evidence wasn't quite as concrete as he once thought.

This is hardly a denial:
“I'm confident of what I presented last year,” Powell said. “The intelligence community is confident of the material they gave me. I was representing them. It was information they presented to the Congress. It was information they had presented publicly, and they stand behind it. And this game is still unfolding.”

[rp001]

Forget about what happened years ago...or one year ago or last week.

See what is happening NOW. OR what is NOT happening now.

It is always important to look at history. We need to learn from both the good and bad! Lambs to a slaughter, who is leading the charge?

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Well, if we start off with a defeatist attitude and saying we can never win, we are indeed guaranteed not to win. But, yes, with the right leadership and informed public support we can win. It may take several generations to do it granted, but what’s the alternative … acquiescence?

I disagree and, as per my earlier post, think what we call this war is very important, psychologically and otherwise. A war against Radical Islam means we also root out radical mosques and imams here in CONUS as but one of many examples … it’s not all military by any means.

Actually, we do have a country to defeat in ISIS. It now controls a land mass approximately equal in size to the UK, with lots of oil fields to boot. To the extent other threats pop up, which they will, the whole idea is to obviate them while small. A grand strategy would allow that. One quick example, everyone in the Intel Community in the mid-1990s knew Bin Laden was a threat but we let him walk multiple times because there was then no grand strategy to combat Radical Islam nor any political will be they D or R.

And finally, I also disagree that there has been a strategy all along. There have no doubt been operational plans by which to fly drones, attack targets etc but that is not a strategy. When POTUS says we don’t have a strategy yet, I have to take him at him word. Besides, don’t forget, while the Intel Community and DoD is full of Americans who want to do the correct thing, they will always look to the top for guidance. That’s where the leadership part comes in, or is this case, does not apply

I don't think I have a defeatist attitude, simply a realistic one. How do you define "win". Can we eliminate every person in the world that believes in this radical view of Islam? Even if we could do you believe that no one would pick up the torch at some point and start it up again?

This land mass that ISIS currently controls is part of two sovereign nations. It is not their land. What we can do is similar to what we did when Sadaam invade Kuwait or when Hitler invaded Europe. We can only chase them out of those areas with the approval of those countries.

And don't forget, these people are citizens of one of those sovereign nations. They are allowed to live within the confines of those nations. They can go back home and blend in with the population and lay low until all the heat is off. Once we think we have won, they will pop out again.

As this is not a traditional war, I don't think that we can win in the traditional sense. We will not have an ISIS leader signing documents of surrender.

We can simply go in and take control of areas that belong to Syria and Iraq without the permission of those sovereign countries. Even if we drive them out of the land masses that they currently control, they would simply go and try to take over other areas that they consider part of Levant. They believe that they own this land. They believe that the Koran gives it to them and that the current government of these countries have no rights to them. Would you have us defeat and occupy all of the Middle East? That is the land mass that we would be talking about, not the little piece that they currently control.

And if we did, they would never stop fighting. Their children and grandchildren for the next hundred generation will continue fighting. This is not a war that is winnable in the traditional sense. It is the current and future state of the world from now on. What we can do is control and minimize radical Islam. And then, there are many non-Muslim terrorist groups in the world. According to the FBI database, there have been 318 terrorist incidents in the US from 1980-2005. That includes 209 bombings and 43 arsons. Out of those incidents, 42% were committed by Latino groups, 24% by Extreme Left Wing groups, 7% by Jewish Extremists, 6% by Muslim Extremists, and 5% by Communists.

Terrorism is something we will live with forever.