The unfair Hands up-don't shoot agenda against law enforcement.

[billethkid]

It seems to me there is a totally unfair and misguided attempt by some special interest groups and media to create a general condition of mistrust with law enforcement in America.

It seems we are continuing to move in the direction of what group can speak the loudest, or get the most media attention with two very concerning aspects.

Complete disregard for whether the allegations are true or not....it just does not seem to matter anymore.

Secondly how can, like it or not, an isolated incident be blown into an across the board condition nation wide?

I personally object to the notion the law enforcement community in general is not to be trusted to do what is right. I also firmly reject that rioting and camera hogging become the new face of the wants and needs of Americans.

My position has nothing to do with who was right or wrong......I like millions upon millions DO NOT HAVE enough credible information (non media or special interest or alarmists like Sharpton/Jackson) to take a stand.

My position is all about the way some few are trying to change, with some success, what we beleive about law enforcement in America!!!!!

[Rags123]

It seems to me there is a totally unfair and misguided attempt by some special interest groups and media to create a general condition of mistrust with law enforcement in America.

It seems we are continuing to move in the direction of what group can speak the loudest, or get the most media attention with two very concerning aspects.

Complete disregard for whether the allegations are true or not....it just does not seem to matter anymore.

Secondly how can, like it or not, an isolated incident be blown into an across the board condition nation wide?

I personally object to the notion the law enforcement community in general is not to be trusted to do what is right. I also firmly reject that rioting and camera hogging become the new face of the wants and needs of Americans.

My position has nothing to do with who was right or wrong......I like millions upon millions DO NOT HAVE enough credible information (non media or special interest or alarmists like Sharpton/Jackson) to take a stand.

My position is all about the way some few are trying to change, with some success, what we beleive about law enforcement in America!!!!!

It appears that what is being created is a society where Police become negotiators, and if they stop someone for any suspicious acts, whether legit or not, they must be aware that if the person is black, then do nothing...negotiate under any and all circumstances. If they resist, allow them to go along their way.

[Tennisnut]

It appears that what is being created is a society where Police become negotiators, and if they stop someone for any suspicious acts, whether legit or not, they must be aware that if the person is black, then do nothing...negotiate under any and all circumstances. If they resist, allow them to go along their way.

I believe that the police are government employees and are held to a hired standard than other employees. When government employees make a mistake, or a perceived mistake by some, it creates a windstorm of controversy and second guessing. For example, in The Stockton Ca bank robbery, 600 bullets were fired by police on public streets of which 10 struck an innocent hostage. Police or government employees are not infallible and subject increased scrutiny whether fair or not.

[Rags123]

I believe that the police are government employees and are held to a hired standard than other employees. When government employees make a mistake, or a perceived mistake by some, it creates a windstorm of controversy and second guessing. For example, in The Stockton Ca bank robbery, 600 bullets were fired by police on public streets of which 10 struck an innocent hostage. Police or government employees are not infallible and subject increased scrutiny whether fair or not.

So, you mean just live with the rioting, destruction and increased racial tension ??

My point was, for example, the sad case in NY where a choke hold was put on a suspect and he died. The ENTIRE SITUATION should not have happened. Had the suspect, and it matters not what he is a suspect about, simply refused to answer the police or listen to what they wanted him to do. THAT was what happened BEFORE THE ACTUAL INCIDENT.

Same thing in Ferguson. Suspect listens to the police and NOT UNFAIR DEMANDS, and he is alive, the city is not half burned to the ground, etc etc etc.

Keep in mind...if police stop you and you did nothing, you MIGHT be inconvenienced and you might have your feelings hurt, but that is it and any cop who oversteps what he or she does when stopping you is in trouble and you are on your way.

[golf2140]

Millions of police contacts yearly without issues. Just recently in PA two white officers saved a black youth who had shot himself in the face. The did CPR and he is alive today. I didn't see Big O or his buddy Al S say anything.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

I saw a photo online yesterday of one of the women protestors in Ferguson holding up a sign saying; (you may not believe this but it's true)

"NO MOTHER SHOULD HAVE TO WORRY THAT EVERY TIME HER SON HOLDS UP A STORE HE WILL BE SHOT"

That pretty much explains the mentality of these people that are protesting. They have been completely brainwashed by some of the special interest groups that when a black kid is shot, it's never justified.

[graciegirl]

If that kid was taught what my kids were taught and what I was taught and what my parents were taught;. "NEVER question the authority of police", he would be alive today. My kids would be dead too, if they shut the car door twice on an officer of the law and punched him several times. Everybody knows that, but apparently not all children are taught that anymore. Along with, don't steal, don't intimidate older smaller people from whom you have stolen and don't come runnin' to me whining about all that character assassination when you act like a fool and get killed.

[tomwed]

I saw a photo online yesterday of one of the women protestors in Ferguson holding up a sign saying; (you may not believe this but it's true)

"NO MOTHER SHOULD HAVE TO WORRY THAT EVERY TIME HER SON HOLDS UP A STORE HE WILL BE SHOT"

That pretty much explains the mentality of these people that are protesting. They have been completely brainwashed by some of the special interest groups that when a black kid is shot, it's never justified.

I saw that too and it turns out to be false. It's a Photoshop change of this photo. click here (http://blogs.riverfronttimes.com/dailyrft/2014/10/jailhouse_tales_an_protester_who_was_arrested_sund ay_night_tells_about_her_experience.php)

If you go to snopes.com there is more on the subject.

[kcrazorbackfan]

I saw a photo online yesterday of one of the women protestors in Ferguson holding up a sign saying; (you may not believe this but it's true)

"NO MOTHER SHOULD HAVE TO WORRY THAT EVERY TIME HER SON HOLDS UP A STORE HE WILL BE SHOT"

That pretty much explains the mentality of these people that are protesting. They have been completely brainwashed by some of the special interest groups that when a black kid is shot, it's never justified.

Whether the sign is real or not, the mentality of NON law-abiding trash (both white and black) is that their little Johnny of little Sally can do no wrong. In both mine and my wife's careers we have arrested sons and daughters of people we arrested 15+ years ago; so a lot of time it's a generational thing.

[KayakerNC]

Whether the sign is real or not, the mentality of NON law-abiding trash (both white and black) is that their little Johnny of little Sally can do no wrong. In both mine and my wife's careers we have arrested sons and daughters of people we arrested 15+ years ago; so a lot of time it's a generational thing.

It's the mentality of EVERY parent that their kids can do no wrong (until they do). And the fact that the sign was photo-shopped to promote racism says a lot about who is promoting hatred.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

I saw that too and it turns out to be false. It's a Photoshop change of this photo. click here (http://blogs.riverfronttimes.com/dailyrft/2014/10/jailhouse_tales_an_protester_who_was_arrested_sund ay_night_tells_about_her_experience.php)

If you go to snopes.com there is more on the subject.

You're right. I should have researched it a bit further before posting anything. My bad.

[Rags123]

It's the mentality of EVERY parent that their kids can do no wrong (until they do). And the fact that the sign was photo-shopped to promote racism says a lot about who is promoting hatred.

Could you elaborate on this comment please ? I am not sure what you mean by " says a lot about who is promoting hatred."

Who are you speaking of please !! That is sort of a rash comment to be left with no explanation. I did not see a source for the photo but you must have seen something I did not..so this calls out for some explanation and clarification.

I, for one, am sick of being called names and think if you are going to do it, please be clear about whom and why you are attacking. I know it was not meant for me, but all these generalities need to be clarified.

[Rags123]

Seriously????? We're not talking about just ANYONE. We're talking about a bafoon troublemaker called Al Sharpton.......

I agree with you. I was trying to point out to a poster who felt mentioning his name with the President was some kind of "code"....which in street creds means a way to say make a racial remark ! It was not and I am, frankly, sick of every time there is a disagreement or a non starter with someone who is of a different race ends up racist.

You know I, as a white man, disagree with a man who is black, and guess what....NOT BECAUSE HE IS BLACK but problem is folks like that poster want to make it racial and then blame you .

Amazing and very very non productive.

THIS thread by BTK spoke to the misconceptions, etc about our police and this is how it happens. Thus far, one poster used the key word "code" in essence suggesting the comment about Sharpton being a friend and confidante of the President was meant to be racial. It was not racial....it is TRUE.

Another poster makes a general absolute no specific remark to another about it show who "to promote racism says a lot about who is promoting hatred." without mentioning who that is and to make posters feel guilty about how they feel. This is all over, not just on TOTV and it serves no useful purpose. Attacking another person in such generalities is at the root of all of these problems. Cops are NOT out to shoot young blacks. They are there to enforce the law....and everyone should respect that and listen to them. They CANNOT arrest you, or do anything to you if you have not done anything wrong. The ONLY time we interact with them is when there is trouble. If we listen to them, and in my opinion, they are in charge when they come to the scene of trouble, we are not in fear. Spreading in GENERALITIES the misconception, actually ANY misconception is just plain wrong.

[Jayhawk]

Few want justice. Many want vengeance. They are NOT the same thing.

[Sandtrap328]

Amazing replies.

[Rags123]

Basically, are you saying it does not matter if the evidence is real or made up.

Instead of a drive by comment, telling someone what THEY think, perhaps you might explain exactly what you mean.

He acknowledged the photo was erroneous and made his comment on his feelings.

In NO way can I hear, evidence doe not matter if real or made up.

Now the premise of this thread is about how a perception in the Ferguson case was and is based on a lie and everyone knows it but does not care.

I think your judgement of this poster is shallow, uncalled for and antogonistic and requires some explanation to the poster whose mind you claimed to have read.

[Rags123]

Amazing replies.

Can you expand on that please ?

[billethkid]

How about a purpose of this thread reminder:

It seems to me there is a totally unfair and misguided attempt by some special interest groups and media to create a general condition of mistrust with law enforcement in America.

It seems we are continuing to move in the direction of what group can speak the loudest, or get the most media attention with two very concerning aspects.

Complete disregard for whether the allegations are true or not....it just does not seem to matter anymore.

Secondly how can, like it or not, an isolated incident be blown into an across the board condition nation wide?

I personally object to the notion the law enforcement community in general is not to be trusted to do what is right. I also firmly reject that rioting and camera hogging become the new face of the wants and needs of Americans.

My position has nothing to do with who was right or wrong......I like millions upon millions DO NOT HAVE enough credible information (non media or special interest or alarmists like Sharpton/Jackson) to take a stand.

My position is all about the way some few are trying to change, with some success, what we beleive about law enforcement in America!!!!!

[Sandtrap328]

Instead of a drive by comment, telling someone what THEY think, perhaps you might explain exactly what you mean.

He acknowledged the photo was erroneous and made his comment on his feelings.

In NO way can I hear, evidence doe not matter if real or made up.

Now the premise of this thread is about how a perception in the Ferguson case was and is based on a lie and everyone knows it but does not care.

I think your judgement of this poster is shallow, uncalled for and antogonistic and requires some explanation to the poster whose mind you claimed to have read.

Wow, you jumped on that immediatly, didn't you? I deleted that post within one minute of posting it. Glad you are watching for my posts. Keep up your vigil.

[graciegirl]

Wow, you jumped on that immediatly, didn't you? I deleted that post within one minute of posting it. Glad you are watching for my posts. Keep up your vigil.


Rags is not jumping. He asked a fair question.

[Moderator]

Please return to the OP's original topic or the thread will be closed.

[graciegirl]

It's the mentality of EVERY parent that their kids can do no wrong (until they do). And the fact that the sign was photo-shopped to promote racism says a lot about who is promoting hatred.

No it isn't the mentality of every parent that a kid can do no wrong until they do. Most people love their children with their whole hearts and would die for them, but thinking, caring people know that their job as parents is to be suspicious and push them toward the right thing. Many, not all, kids without parents who REALLY care grow up lazy and whining and immoral. Most of the parents that I knew when my kids were growing up were just as suspicious and judgmental as I was. In our case, I was with them most of the time since their father was flying around the country most of the time trying to make enough money so I could stay home with them until they were school age. It is little children that learn morals. Forget about teens, it is too late. AND they will DO what you DO not what you say.

Where do you think the old saying comes from, My mother has eyes in the back of her head? It is a sad shame that most parents these days aren't with their kids enough to really KNOW them like we knew our children, back in the day when one parent stayed with them until they went to school if they could.

[graciegirl]

[QUOTE=graciegirl;975827]If that kid was taught what my kids were taught and what I was taught and what my parents were taught;. "NEVER question the authority of police", he would be alive today. My kids would be dead too, if they shut the car door twice on an officer of the law and punched him several times. Everybody knows that, but apparently not all children are taught that anymore. Along with, don't steal, don't intimidate older smaller people from whom you have stolen and don't come runnin' to me whining about all that character assassination when you act like a fool and get killed.

Bumping back to topic so the moderator doesn't close the thread.

[redwitch]

Whether we care to admit it or not, there are two sets of standards used by LEOs. Talk to most black men and you'll find they are much more routinely stopped than their white counterparts regardless of neighborhood, dress or age. Ask your teenage grandkids how often they are stopped by LEOs while walking down the street. Ask a black teenage boy the same question. You might be saddened by the answer.

Yes, the behavior in Ferguson is unexcusable but it is understandable. Do any of you really believe that Off. Wilson would have treated three white boys walking in the street the same way as he did Brown? (Remember, he did not know about the shoplifting incident.)

[TVMayor]

When I take over black neighborhoods will be protected my black police and white neighborhoods will be protected by white police. Al S will deal with black police problems and a white person would take care of white police problems.

This will prevent towns from being burned down and business from being looted.

[graciegirl]

Whether we care to admit it or not, there are two sets of standards used by LEOs. Talk to most black men and you'll find they are much more routinely stopped than their white counterparts regardless of neighborhood, dress or age. Ask your teenage grandkids how often they are stopped by LEOs while walking down the street. Ask a black teenage boy the same question. You might be saddened by the answer.

Yes, the behavior in Ferguson is unexcusable but it is understandable. Do any of you really believe that Off. Wilson would have treated three white boys walking in the street the same way as he did Brown? (Remember, he did not know about the shoplifting incident.)


Please reread the report from the Grand Jury. Darren Wilson was called to that incident of stealing some small items and Michael Brown was described, including his shoes or socks were yellow.

I know you are talking about racial profiling. THAT is a very big problem and we all know why although we are not supposed to bring it up.

I know that since Ferguson that the smiles I give everybody in public places where we usually stop to pee and eat were not returned by a lot of blacks in the last week on our journey to Ohio. THAT makes me think that race relations are going the WRONG direction.

[graciegirl]

When I take over black neighborhoods will be protected my black police and white neighborhoods will be protected by white police. Al S will deal with black police problems and a white person would take care of white police problems.

This will prevent towns from being burned down and business from being looted.

When I take over every law enforcement person in this country will wear a body camera. I doubt even that would change things.

[Rags123]

Wow, you jumped on that immediatly, didn't you? I deleted that post within one minute of posting it. Glad you are watching for my posts. Keep up your vigil.

I was reading the thread.

Why did you post it in the first place if you took it down in one minute.

To the point of the thread....I do not, for one minute, think there is no racial profiling. I do NOT believe that policeman are out trying to hassle black youths. I do beleive ther are bad cops, but what is being done to police nationwide is just wrong BASED ON LIES, all proven lies mind you.

I hear all about the arrest records of black youths. Does anyone know how many are convicted ? Perhaps the profiling of black youths in certain areas is justified.

Sometimes when a conversation is needed on a national level as everyone thinks we need, we should cover ALL sides including those uncomfortable truths whether pro or con to how you feel.

[VILLAGER 2011]

The "thin blue line" did its job.
These thugs are engaging in anarchy.

[tomwed]

The Charles Barkley Rant on Ferguson Grand Jury Decision That You Won’t Believe You’re Just Now Hearing

click here (http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/12/01/the-charles-barkley-rant-on-ferguson-grand-jury-decision-that-you-might-not-believe-you-are-just-hearing/) I think you will find a lot of common ground with Charles Barkley. I admire the man for saying what he thinks, while knowing he will upset some kids with blinders on.

[Rags123]

Please reread the report from the Grand Jury. Darren Wilson was called to that incident of stealing some small items and Michael Brown was described, including his shoes or socks were yellow.

I know you are talking about racial profiling. THAT is a very big problem and we all know why although we are not supposed to bring it up.

I know that since Ferguson that the smiles I give everybody in public places where we usually stop to pee and eat were not returned by a lot of blacks in the last week on our journey to Ohio. THAT makes me think that race relations are going the WRONG direction.


The presentation of this situation is driving us all apart.

And why can we not discuss racial profiling. If an important discussion is to take place, everything should be on the table. This is a one sided conversation, and that is what makes it a divider. Do we ever hear the truth. We hear about cops killing black youth..that is it. Is that ll that is happening...I think not, but some will not engage in REAL conversation because it is not comfortable and good conversation ending up with solutions is normally not all that comfy.

[janmcn]

All hell is about to break out in New York City, on the very night that the Christmas tree lighting will take place at Rockefeller Center.

[Rags123]

The Charles Barkley Rant on Ferguson Grand Jury Decision That You Won’t Believe You’re Just Now Hearing

click here (http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/12/01/the-charles-barkley-rant-on-ferguson-grand-jury-decision-that-you-might-not-believe-you-are-just-hearing/) I think you will find a lot of common ground with Charles Barkley. I admire the man for saying what he thinks, while knowing he will upset some kids with blinders on.

Saw his remarks referred to as incendiary by a black lawyer. But on a national level embarassing and demeaning the police is just fine. She made his point....

I have been talking about people do NOT want a REAL conversation on this..it will make many feel uncomfortable, and his point is well taken. If you are black and speak up and say something deragatory about your race, you will be called an "Uncle Tom" and chastised at every turn.

Let's have a conversation about our police...weigh both good and bad. Let's also discuss crime rates with blacks and see if there is actually no justification to profile as is being said, which to me is just stupid because it is an unproven statement...you can call the arrest rate high, but I ask again....how many of those arrested are guilty.

There is an industry based on racism and they are not about to allow it to be destroyed

[Rags123]

All hell is about to break out in New York City, on the very night that the Christmas tree lighting will take place at Rockefeller Center.


Does that make you proud ? How does that make you feel ? All of this based on lies.

[tomwed]

Saw his remarks referred to as incendiary by a black lawyer. But on a national level embarassing and demeaning the police is just fine. She made his point....

I have been talking about people do NOT want a REAL conversation on this..it will make many feel uncomfortable, and his point is well taken. If you are black and speak up and say something deragatory about your race, you will be called an "Uncle Tom" and chastised at every turn.

Let's have a conversation about our police...weigh both good and bad. Let's also discuss crime rates with blacks and see if there is actually no justification to profile as is being said, which to me is just stupid because it is an unproven statement...you can call the arrest rate high, but I ask again....how many of those arrested are guilty.

There is an industry based on racism and they are not about to allow it to be destroyed
Did you listen to what Barkley said for yourself? click here (http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/12/01/the-charles-barkley-rant-on-ferguson-grand-jury-decision-that-you-might-not-believe-you-are-just-hearing/) When you click here it will take you to the podcast and you can hear it.
I think it is a good starting point for a conversation in a high school classroom.

[Rags123]

Did you listen to what Barkley said for yourself? click here (http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/12/01/the-charles-barkley-rant-on-ferguson-grand-jury-decision-that-you-might-not-believe-you-are-just-hearing/)
I think it is a good starting point for a conversation in a high school classroom.

I agree,...it took days to have him even interviewed. The only way you knew what he said was online where he was ripped. I thought it was great that today he got some prime time, but it will be short lived.

[tomwed]

Could someone give me a link to the Grand Jury Report? I'd like to read it.

[dewilson58]

Whether we care to admit it or not, there are two sets of standards used by LEOs. Talk to most black men and you'll find they are much more routinely stopped than their white counterparts regardless of neighborhood, dress or age. Ask your teenage grandkids how often they are stopped by LEOs while walking down the street. Ask a black teenage boy the same question. You might be saddened by the answer.

Yes, the behavior in Ferguson is unexcusable but it is understandable. Do any of you really believe that Off. Wilson would have treated three white boys walking in the street the same way as he did Brown? (Remember, he did not know about the shoplifting incident.)


Are you sticking to the statement, "he did not know...."

All the information I read, he did know about the robbery and had a description of Mike. The police radio transmission are on the record.

Am I missing something??

Thanks

[dewilson58]

I was in Ferguson over the weekend.

There are a lot of good people there. The media is showing the 1%.

I do believe the Hands-up, Don't shoot is agenda is hurting any chance for improvements in Ferguson or any where in the US.

Seems like another broken child from another broken family.

[eweissenbach]

As To BTKs original post, yes this Has gotten way to much national attention, too many people without a grasp of the facts commenting ON BOTH SIDES. I have seen reports that make rioters seem justified, and I have seen distorted facts about protesters that make them ALL appear to be looters and vandals. It is true that our justice system seems to be weighted against African-Americans, and in many parts of the country blacks are unfairly targeted. This causes animosity in the black community, and to some degree precipitates some of the legitimate protest (again, not the looting, rioting, and vandalism) in Ferguson and other locales. My understanding is, correct me if this is wrong, that the city is more than 50% black, but the police department is all, or very nearly all, white. I would submit that that is an unhealthy situation. I have read widely conflicting reports of how the incident went down in the first place, and would not pretend to know the facts. I do know that mistakes and over reactions were made by all parties in the aftermath. It is easy for whites to dismiss this as a bunch of black thugs out of control, and I presume it is easy for some blacks to feel justified, but neither view is going to help us understand the deep-seated problems and keep them from recurring in the future. Everyone needs to examine their actions. Like most things it ain't all that black and white.

[tomwed]

I was in Ferguson over the weekend.

There are a lot of good people there. The media is showing the 1%.

I do believe the Hands-up, Don't shoot is agenda is hurting any chance for improvements in Ferguson or any where in the US.

Seems like another broken child from another broken family.

Do the good people there seem upset or angry? Did you see the races interacting positively? Is this where you are from?

[Rags123]

Not sure why I am even posting this, but perhaps because the fear I feel is probably coming through in my posts. There is a post on another thread about listening to both sides on issues, and I could not agree more. That may surprise folks who THINK they know how I feel, but it is true to a fault sometimes.

I very seldom, if ever, talk about myself or what I did before retired, but it is germaine to know that I spent many years at a fairly high level involved in something that we do not talk about on here (yes it was legal, just frowned upon here)

In that role and in that world, I was exposed to what happened in the 60's regarding race in a unique manner. I will just say that I left my job under protest because I felt the black population was being set up to be used as pawns. I still feel that they have been "used" in that way, and the "users" are expanding that in our time. I am speaking in very general terms here on purpose.

This is not a blanket condemnation by any means, because much of that "usage" (my word) has become so institutionalized, but what is happening now harkens me back to that day.

That day was when misinformation was the key way to control. There are many who have a vested interest in the black community and insuring they are portrayed as victims. MLK was the closest to understanding whT was happening but he was cut short. I really believe that if somehow, someway, we can present facts ...ALL OF THEM, even the uncomfortable ones and do it in a rational way, we will be ok.

Problem is, MLK understood that and he understood the rule of law. My bet is he would be on CNN applauding the police while gathering facts, while teaching those who are preaching race ON BOTH SIDES to just listen. We do not have that today....we are so sheparded by our instant, and most times uninformed media, and so called leaders (who, trust me have a vested interest in all if this is) that with that void of men or women we are on the precipice of disaster.

Some actually want and desire this divide..they have interest in having it exist..you decide who that is, but if you honestly listen to both sides..if you honestly read both sides, I think you will see the direction is focused on the negative. We have NO leaders to steer us clear.

Sorry..just had to say this once and for all and will bid my adieu.

[graciegirl]

Not sure why I am even posting this, but perhaps because the fear I feel is probably coming through in my posts. There is a post on another thread about listening to both sides on issues, and I could not agree more. That may surprise folks who THINK they know how I feel, but it is true to a fault sometimes.

I very seldom, if ever, talk about myself or what I did before retired, but it is germaine to know that I spent many years at a fairly high level involved in something that we do not talk about on here (yes it was legal, just frowned upon here)

In that role and in that world, I was exposed to what happened in the 60's regarding race in a unique manner. I will just say that I left my job under protest because I felt the black population was being set up to be used as pawns. I still feel that they have been "used" in that way, and the "users" are expanding that in our time. I am speaking in very general terms here on purpose.

This is not a blanket condemnation by any means, because much of that "usage" (my word) has become so institutionalized, but what is happening now harkens me back to that day.

That day was when misinformation was the key way to control. There are many who have a vested interest in the black community and insuring they are portrayed as victims. MLK was the closest to understanding whT was happening but he was cut short. I really believe that if somehow, someway, we can present facts ...ALL OF THEM, even the uncomfortable ones and do it in a rational way, we will be ok.

Problem is, MLK understood that and he understood the rule of law. My bet is he would be on CNN applauding the police while gathering facts, while teaching those who are preaching race ON BOTH SIDES to just listen. We do not have that today....we are so sheparded by our instant, and most times uninformed media, and so called leaders (who, trust me have a vested interest in all if this is) that with that void of men or women we are on the precipice of disaster.

Some actually want and desire this divide..they have interest in having it exist..you decide who that is, but if you honestly listen to both sides..if you honestly read both sides, I think you will see the direction is focused on the negative. We have NO leaders to steer us clear.

Sorry..just had to say this once and for all and will bid my adieu.

Thank you Rags. You are right.We all need to try to do better. It is so hard to not be drawn into this mess. We are all heading the wrong direction. We need to remember Martin Luther King and what he stood for. We need to bring up uncomfortable issues and talk about them. And be the change we seek.

[janmcn]

Does that make you proud ? How does that make you feel ? All of this based on lies.


I was referring to the Eric Garner case. It makes me very sad. I guess one's feelings are directly related to the color of your skin.

[graciegirl]

I was referring to the Eric Garner case. It makes me very sad. I guess one's feelings are directly related to the color of your skin.

Who is Eric Garner? AND of course one's feelings are not related to the color of your skin.

Now I know. Eric Garner was the man asphyxiated by police when resisting arrest for selling illegal cigarettes? Wasn't he a very large man who was flailing against the police? I am sure they meant to subdue him not kill him. Or am I wrong?

[tomwed]

Here's the video of Eric Garner being arrested. click here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1ka4oKu1jo)

[rubicon]

What does being treated equally under the law mean? What if a white guy claims he was not treated equally under the law because he got a speeding ticket but he knows for sure that some drop dead blonde beauty was given a warning. Well that in my view is happening here. It is a common practice for thugs to claim they are being unfairly picked on.


its clear certain black leaders are demanding that police stand down and not because their unjust but because it is a concealed effort at anarchy.

I feel very badly for police officers all over this nation because if the politicians give in they will place these folks in greater danger

[Rags123]

I was referring to the Eric Garner case. It makes me very sad. I guess one's feelings are directly related to the color of your skin.

Your comment is so wrong and unfair and totally uncalled for. Why is race always the issue with you folks ?

If it is not race, some are not excited and cranked up. This is fun for some.

You know there are arrests, shootings, and accidents that actually have nothing to do with race.

What makes it about race ? Pretty much posts like this that continue this thinking and the media and certain leaders who prey on this kind of thinking.

These comments come from people who supposedly want no race problems yet they will always make one where they can.

Those comments are relative to your comments.

As far as the case, all I know is what I read and see and it surprised me no indictment, but I am not seeing race !

[dewilson58]

Do the good people there seem upset or angry? Did you see the races interacting positively? Is this where you are from?

Still have family in a couple small towns around/connected to STL. The good people are upset with the media and the fuel the are adding to a sad situation. There are a lot of good people of different color calling each other neighbors. There was a church, majority of the worshipers being black, was burnt down. A few are hurting a lot of good people.

Even though a majority of the people are black and a majority of the police are white, there is support for the police department. I think even the police department would like to see more black officers, but if there are no applicants.....difficult to hire.

Conversation is good. Looting and burning is not. Which is the media covering??

[tomwed]

Still have family in a couple small towns around/connected to STL. The good people are upset with the media and the fuel the are adding to a sad situation. There are a lot of good people of different color calling each other neighbors. There was a church, majority of the worshipers being black, was burnt down. A few are hurting a lot of good people.

Even though a majority of the people are black and a majority of the police are white, there is support for the police department. I think even the police department would like to see more black officers, but if there are no applicants.....difficult to hire.

Conversation is good. Looting and burning is not. Which is the media covering??

Thank-you so much for sharing. Too bad no one but us will know what you saw. That sounds hopeful, doesn't it?

[Rags123]

I was referring to the Eric Garner case. It makes me very sad. I guess one's feelings are directly related to the color of your skin.

What were your feelings regarding any of these...

This was resolved with the use of a body camera, which I think are great...

"Officer Bron Cruz, who was described as non-white, shot Taylor once in the chest and once in the stomach after he refused to obey police.

Officer Cruz said he believed Taylor had a weapon and intended to use it.

No weapon was found on or near Taylor’s body.

One big difference in the two cases was officer Cruz was wearing a body camera.

Footage from the officer’s body camera (see video above) shows Officer Cruz repeatedly ordered Dillon to show his hands.

On the footage Taylor can be heard saying “Nah, fool.”

Taylor quickly raised his left hand from inside his waistband, lifted his shirt level with his armpit and quickly brought out his right hand."

Salt Lake cop cleared in shooting of unarmed white man | WREG.com (http://wreg.com/2014/11/25/salt-lake-cop-cleared-in-shooting-of-unarmed-white-man/)

Then in Orange Texas, a black officer who happened to be a captain shot down an unarmed veteran and killed him. This happened in 2010 and if you read the link, you may have trouble learning the race of each.....

"Editor's Note: The Examiner has obtained a copy of the 38-page document filed by Orange Police Chief Sam Kittrell outlining the findings of his internal investigation into the shooting death of James Whitehead, a decorated U.S. Marine by off-duty police captain Robert Arnold, following a verbal disturbance. Kittrell's report has been reprinted in its entirety in order to provide readers with an accurate sense of what occurred on the day the unarmed man was killed. Robert Arnold, a captain with the city of Orange Police Department, who shot and killed a decorated U.S. Marine during an verbal disturbance at the O'Reilly Auto Parts store in July, has been indefinitely suspended and is now facing a federal civil rights investigation"

Orange cop suspended, facing federal investigation in shooting death of U.S. Marine hero | The Examiner (http://www.theexaminer.com/stories/news/orange-cop-suspended-facing-federal-investigation-shooting-death-us-marine-hero)

There are many more but how were your feelings on these shootings ?

[Rags123]

Still have family in a couple small towns around/connected to STL. The good people are upset with the media and the fuel the are adding to a sad situation. There are a lot of good people of different color calling each other neighbors. There was a church, majority of the worshipers being black, was burnt down. A few are hurting a lot of good people.

Even though a majority of the people are black and a majority of the police are white, there is support for the police department. I think even the police department would like to see more black officers, but if there are no applicants.....difficult to hire.

Conversation is good. Looting and burning is not. Which is the media covering??

Thanks for this post.

Amazing isnt it WHO IS RUNNING THIS ALL !!!! The control over these situations should be so clear and immediate yet folks still screaming the same stuff.

So many people are tied to BLACKS BEING DEPENDENT and being made to feel sorry for, and I DO, but because ever since the 60's this charade has been taking place. An entire race of so many many good people being used

[Bay Kid]

It would scare me to be a white police officer in this time. Maybe only black police should be working the black neighborhoods. Better for all.

[dewilson58]

It would scare me to be a white police officer in this time. Maybe only black police should be working the black neighborhoods. Better for all.

I've gone there myself.........Black policing Black, but that supports (in my small mind) "Hands up, don't shoot." I think all good police should police all.

Again, my small mind............I think if Officer Wilson was black, Brown would still be dead.

[jgmroc67]

Is this an appropriate subject for TOTV. It belongs, I think, on Facebook. No one here has all the facts, only opinions based on their experiences.

[njbchbum]

Is this an appropriate subject for TOTV. It belongs, I think, on Facebook. No one here has all the facts, only opinions based on their experiences.

I think if TOTV was only about facts rather than opinion, rumor and inuendo that it would be out of business.

[tomwed]

Is this an appropriate subject for TOTV. It belongs, I think, on Facebook. No one here has all the facts, only opinions based on their experiences.
After just 3 posts you figured out that TOTV should not include opinions based on a lifetime of experiences. Give me a link to the facts you are reading. I'd like to read them too. I don't use Facebook. It's too big. Respect your elders. You don't have to agree with them.

[rubicon]

All this back and forth concerning this topic is interesting but we all know the truth but the truth isn't what's on the agenda. The reactions by some blacks is a serious set back for race relations. The biggest offenders are just the high level leaders that should step up and dispel the myths so articulated by Thomas Sowell, Jason Riley and even Charles Barkley

[dewilson58]

Is this an appropriate subject for TOTV. It belongs, I think, on Facebook. No one here has all the facts, only opinions based on their experiences.

That is part of ToTV..............facts, opinions, opinions acting as facts.

:loco::loco::loco:

[tomwed]

That is part of ToTV..............facts, opinions, opinions acting as facts.

:loco::loco::loco:
I wish I could be that succinct. Let me elaborate on that......................

[Taltarzac725]

Beyond 'Hands Up, Don't Shoot': what if there's no indictment in Ferguson? | Hannah Giorgis | Comment is free | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/nov/10/no-indictment-ferguson-no-justice-michael-brown)

I found this article rather offensive about the current racial situation in the US. It is from almost a month ago and seems to have little basis in reality.

It really depends on the local community with respect to just how far race relations have come.

[eweissenbach]

That is part of ToTV..............facts, opinions, opinions acting as facts.

:loco::loco::loco:

True dat!

[tomwed]

Beyond 'Hands Up, Don't Shoot': what if there's no indictment in Ferguson? | Hannah Giorgis | Comment is free | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/nov/10/no-indictment-ferguson-no-justice-michael-brown)

I found this article rather offensive about the current racial situation in the US. It is from almost a month ago and seems to have little basis in reality.

It really depends on the local community with respect to just how far race relations have come.

Whether you agree or disagree with her position the article does substantiate almost every point with links to other articles. There are about 40 links. I did not read them all.

Writing a position paper when I was in school required supporting an opinion with books or periodicals listed in the bibliography. I think it's easier to understand why someone reaches their conclusion when you can read the basis of that opinion. Linking makes this doable. Back in the day the professor had to trust the author. Reading all she links to takes a lot of time.

I'm getting tired researching, trying to find the truth but I think Tony Soprano's mother would tell me "Poor You".

I agree that race relations is a local problem that varies with respect to how far each community has come.

[Taltarzac725]

Whether you agree or disagree with her position the article does substantiate almost every point with links to other articles. There are about 40 links. I did not read them all.

Writing a position paper when I was in school required supporting an opinion with books or periodicals listed in the bibliography. I think it's easier to understand why someone reaches their conclusion when you can read the basis of that opinion. Linking makes this doable. Back in the day the professor had to trust the author. Reading all she links to takes a lot of time.

I'm getting tired researching, trying to find the truth but I think Tony Soprano's mother would tell me "Poor You".

I agree that race relations is a local problem that varies with respect to how far each community has come.

Her links are questionable. They do show her bias. It sounds like you support my position that what is happening in Ferguson does not give the true picture of what is occuring in Minneapolis, the Villages, Reno, NYC, etc. She also cherry picks from history with her links.

[tomwed]

Her links are questionable. They do show her bias. It sounds like you support my position that what is happening in Ferguson does not give the true picture of what is occuring in Minneapolis, the Villages, Reno, NYC, etc. She also cherry picks from history with her links.
I'll go further then that. Within each county their are differences.

If there was only way of looking at a problem, gathering the facts and making an opinion then Supreme Court decisions would be unanimous. Call it cherry picking if you want.

We are "finding common ground."

[dillywho]

It's the mentality of EVERY parent that their kids can do no wrong (until they do). And the fact that the sign was photo-shopped to promote racism says a lot about who is promoting hatred.

Not EVERY parent. If that is the case, they know nothing about kids or parenting. Here again, you cannot paint the whole world with one brush.

[dillywho]

I worked with a guy that summed up things nicely.

Mike said, "As far as I am concerned, everyone is black. I can only judge them by the way they talk to me and treat me, as well as others around them."

You see, Mike was totally BLIND.

[pivo]

If we are t they are out they have good race relations, we have to get rid of the bad apple, Sharpton's and Jackson's All they do is poison the young black kids with hatred for whites because they make millions of dollars, right now the garner family behind Sharpton
are looking at 75 million suite against the city, it's been that way for the last 40 years,All they do protest and then a settlement,The young black kid today will not listen to police or the law they have the sharpton attitude.
I have not seen any white protesters looting and burning buildings have you.

Infact did we protest or loot after the O.J. Simpson trial ,, no ,,,why? because in our bringing up by responsible people taught us better,

[tomwed]

I worked with a guy that summed up things nicely.

Mike said, "As far as I am concerned, everyone is black. I can only judge them by the way they talk to me and treat me, as well as others around them."

You see, Mike was totally BLIND.

Your Dad's quote says a lot about you too.

[graciegirl]

Your Dad's quote says a lot about you too.


If you knew her like I do, you would be as blessed as I am. She is a courageous woman with a great moral compass, great intellect, plus common sense, and an amazing sense of humor. She is a good cook and a great golfer and a wonderful mother and wife. She has tons of friends but makes each of us feel the most loved.

[tomwed]

If you knew her like I do, you would be as blessed as I am. She is a courageous woman with a great moral compass, great intellect, plus common sense, and an amazing sense of humor. She is a good cook and a great golfer and a wonderful mother and wife. She has tons of friends but makes each of us feel the most loved.

Gracie, I think I was misunderstood. On the bottom of her post it reads

To quote my dad:
"I never did see a board that didn't have two sides."
It's a great quote, words to live by and special that she or he quotes their dad. The quote says all those kind words you said. [maybe not the golfing]

I meant the opposite of anything that may have sounded snarky.

[graciegirl]

Gracie, I think I was misunderstood. On the bottom of her post it reads

To quote my dad:
"I never did see a board that didn't have two sides."
It's a great quote, words to live by and special that she or he quotes their dad.

I meant the opposite of anything that may have sounded snarky.

I didn't think you sounded snarky. I knew just what you meant. You intended it as a sincere compliment. I just had to tell you how much I agree.

[tomwed]

I didn't think you sounded snarky. I knew just what you meant. You intended it as a sincere compliment. I just had to tell you how much I agree.

so sorry,,,,,i misunderstood you
[it can be tough, talking without faces]

[eweissenbach]

If we are t they are out they have good race relations, we have to get rid of the bad apple, Sharpton's and Jackson's All they do is poison the young black kids with hatred for whites because they make millions of dollars, right now the garner family behind Sharpton
are looking at 75 million suite against the city, it's been that way for the last 40 years,All they do protest and then a settlement,The young black kid today will not listen to police or the law they have the sharpton attitude.
I have not seen any white protesters looting and burning buildings have you.

Infact did we protest or loot after the O.J. Simpson trial ,, no ,,,why? because in our bringing up by responsible people taught us better,

While I Mostly agree with the view that folks like Sharpton are part of the problem and not part of the solution, I would add that folks like Limbaugh and Beck are part of the problem on the other side. You also make a sweeping generalization in "our bringing up" which sounds elitist and racist. Quite certain there is no "white bringing up" or "black bringing up", just different ways of parenting by different individual people.

[manaboutown]

Rampant criminal behavior going unpunished is the problem. Some folks expect to be able to commit whatever felonies they please and be let off the hook or just slapped on the hand when caught and brought to justice. Unfortunately in many places most criminals commit many grievous crimes before they are caught and tried for even one of them.

Criminals need to be held accountable for their behavior. That includes rioters, arsonists and looters.

[graciegirl]

While I Mostly agree with the view that folks like Sharpton are part of the problem and not part of the solution, I would add that folks like Limbaugh and Beck are part of the problem on the other side. You also make a sweeping generalization in "our bringing up" which sounds elitist and racist.

Why do you think it sounds elitist and racist? Why are those words politically correct when they are hurting to people who only mean to explain their feelings. Many of us were taught responsibility in matters of this kind. We may feel what we think is justifiable anger about a lot of things but most of us Villagers were taught to have self control and not loot and burn when we are disappointed in government decisions that seem very unfair..

[eweissenbach]

Infact did we protest or loot after the O.J. Simpson trial ,, no ,,,why? because in our bringing up by responsible people taught us better,

Why do you think it sounds elitist and racist? Why are those words politically correct when they are hurting to people who only mean to explain their feelings. Many of us were taught responsibility in matters of this kind. We may feel what we think is justifiable anger about a lot of things but most of us Villagers were taught to have self control and not loot and burn when we are disappointed in government decisions that seem very unfair..

In fact did WE (we implies all white people in this sentence) protest or loot after the O.J. Simpson trial, no..... Why? Because in our bringing up by RESPONSIBLE PEOPLE taught us better. (Implies WE were brought up by responsible people [again, every white person] as opposed to those OTHER PEOPLE, who were apparently all brought up by irresponsible people. Sounds rather elitist and racist to me, but we can agree to disagree.

[graciegirl]

In fact did WE (we implies all white people in this sentence) protest or loot after the O.J. Simpson trial, no..... Why? Because in our bringing up by RESPONSIBLE PEOPLE taught us better. (Implies WE were brought up by responsible people [again, every white person] as opposed to those OTHER PEOPLE, who were apparently all brought up by irresponsible people. Sounds rather elitist and racist to me, but we can agree to disagree.

We only know how to be us. We are proud of matters like this where we as a group; seniors, Wasps, AAP's,(African American Protestants) Americans, Midwesterners, mountain people, coastal people, people who pay taxes, people who work, WE were taught these principles. That is what is different in many cases. We now have a new group of urban poor; new immigrants and many if not most have strong family values. I bet those new urban poor will work themselves up to rich in a generation or two because they are not too proud to work and to keep their temper... and then they can be maligned for doing so. That is how this conversation feels to me. ANYONE CAN LEARN SELF CONTROL. It has nothing to do with race. I am so proud of the protesters in New York. What do you think is the difference?

[eweissenbach]

We only know how to be us. We are proud of matters like this where we as a group; seniors, Wasps, AAP's,(Afican American Protestants) Americans, Midwesterners, mountain people, coastal people, people who pay taxes, people who work, WE were taught these principles. That is what is different in many cases. We now have a new group of urban poor; new immigrants and many if not most have strong family values. I bet those new urban poor will work themselves up to rich in a generation or two because they are not too proud to work and to keep their temper... and then they can be maligned for doing so. That is how this conversation feels to me. ANYONE CAN LEARN SELF CONTROL. It has nothing to do with race.
I agree absolutely to your last few sentences. I apparently am not making myself clear. My objection is to the broad generalization that all white people, even of our age, were raised the right way. Many if not most may well have been, but many were not. Some who were not rose above it, while some unfortunately did not. I remember in the sixties how blacks, as well as whites who joined their cause, were treated and murdered in the Deep South by many in the white majority.

[pivo]

Weissenbach:
Maybe you can answer my question to you, No my parents did not tell me to obey the law nor respect the police, be honest it some way was instilled in me and all my friendsI grew up with, ,You are also a product of all your neighbors, We would never disobey a cop or any of our seniors, Now compare my bringing up to the blacks today there is no comparison they are unruly, don't respect their elders and so on not all but the majority, you think a black parent today would turn their children away from the teaching of the leaders , It's all about how you are raised , example look at Browns stepfather two charges of selling dope, spent five years in prison the mother is up on charges of beating up some one selling t-shirts and hospitalized .

[tomwed]

Many have suggested that we need leadership. Many respect Rev. King. After reading this speech I'm left with the feeling that not much has changed in 50 years. He offers a solution that still feels valid.

"The Other America"

Speech by
Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr.

Grosse Pointe High School - March 14, 1968


Rev. Dr. Harry Meserve, Bishop Emrich, my dear friend Congressman Conyers, ladies and gentlemen.

I need not pause to say how very delighted I am to be here tonight and to have the great privilege of discussing with you some of the vital issues confronting our nation and confronting the world. It is always a very rich and rewarding experience when I can take a brief break from the day-to-day demands of our struggle for freedom and human dignity and discuss the issues involved in that struggle with concerned people of good will all over our nation and all over the world, and I certainly want to express my deep personal appreciation to you for inviting me to occupy this significant platform.

I want to discuss the race problem tonight and I want to discuss it very honestly. I still believe that freedom is the bonus you receive for telling the truth. Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free. And I do not see how we will ever solve the turbulent problem of race confronting our nation until there is an honest confrontation with it and a willing search for the truth and a willingness to admit the truth when we discover it. And so I want to use as a title for my lecture tonight, "The Other America." And I use this title because there are literally two Americas. Every city in our country has this kind of dualism, this schizophrenia, split at so many parts, and so every city ends up being two cities rather than one. There are two Americas. One America is beautiful for situation. In this America, millions of people have the milk of prosperity and the honey of equality flowing before them. This America is the habitat of millions of people who have food and material necessities for their bodies, culture and education for their minds, freedom and human dignity for their spirits. In this America children grow up in the sunlight of opportunity. But there is another America. This other America has a daily ugliness about it that transforms the buoyancy of hope into the fatigue of despair. In this other America, thousands and thousands of people, men in particular walk the streets in search for jobs that do not exist. In this other America, millions of people are forced to live in vermin-filled, distressing housing conditions where they do not have the privilege of having wall-to-wall carpeting, but all too often, they end up with wall-to-wall rats and roaches. Almost forty percent of the Negro families of America live in sub-standard housing conditions. In this other America, thousands of young people are deprived of an opportunity to get an adequate education. Every year thousands finish high school reading at a seventh, eighth and sometimes ninth grade level. Not because they're dumb, not because they don't have the native intelligence, but because the schools are so inadequate, so over-crowded, so devoid of quality, so segregated if you will, that the best in these minds can never come out. Probably the most critical problem in the other America is the economic problem. There are so many other people in the other America who can never make ends meet because their incomes are far too low if they have incomes, and their jobs are so devoid of quality. And so in this other America, unemployment is a reality and under-employment is a reality. (I'll just wait until our friend can have her say) (applause). I'll just wait until things are restored and. . .everybody talks about law and order. (applause)

Now before I was so rudely interrupted… (applause), and I might say that it was my understanding that we're going to have a question and answer period, and if anybody disagrees with me, you will have the privilege, the opportunity to raise a question if you think I'm a traitor, then you'll have an opportunity to ask me about my traitorness and we will give you that opportunity.

Now let me get back to the point that I was trying to bring out about the economic problem. And that is one of the most critical problems that we face in America today. We find in the other America unemployment constantly rising to astronomical proportions and black people generally find themselves living in a literal depression. All too often when there is mass unemployment in the black community, it's referred to as a social problem and when there is mass unemployment in the white community, it's referred to as a depression. But there is no basic difference. The fact is, that the negro faces a literal depression all over the U.S. The unemployment rate on the basis of statistics from the labor department is about 8.8 per cent in the black community. But these statistics only take under consideration individuals who were once in the labor market, or individuals who go to employment offices to seek employment. But they do not take under consideration the thousands of people who have given up, who have lost motivation, the thousands of people who have had so many doors closed in their faces that they feel defeated and they no longer go out and look for jobs, the thousands who've come to feel that life is a long and desolate corridor with no exit signs. These people are considered the discouraged and when you add the discouraged to the individuals who can't be calculated through statistics in the unemployment category, the unemployment rate in the negro community probably goes to 16 or 17 percent. And among black youth, it is in some communities as high as 40 and 45 percent. But the problem of unemployment is not the only problem. There is the problem of under-employment, and there are thousands and thousand, I would say millions of people in the negro community who are poverty stricken - not because they are not working but because they receive wages so low that they cannot begin to function in the main stream of the economic life of our nation. Most of the poverty stricken people of America are persons who are working every day and they end up getting part-time wages for full-time work. So the vast majority of negroes in America find themselves perishing on a lonely island of poverty in the midst of a vast ocean of material prosperity. This has caused a great deal of bitterness. It has caused a great deal of agony. It has caused ache and anguish. It has caused great despair, and we have seen the angered expressions of this despair and this bitterness in the violent rebellions that have taken place in cities all over our country. Now I think my views on non-violence are pretty generally known. I still believe that non-violence is the most potent weapon available to the negro in his struggle for justice and freedom in the U.S.

Now let me relieve you a bit. I've been in the struggle a long time now, (applause) and I've conditioned myself to some things that are much more painful than discourteous people not allowing you to speak, so if they feel that they can discourage me, they'll be up here all night.

Now I wanted to say something about the fact that we have lived over these last two or three summers with agony and we have seen our cities going up in flames. And I would be the first to say that I am still committed to militant, powerful, massive, non*-violence as the most potent weapon in grappling with the problem from a direct action point of view. I'm absolutely convinced that a riot merely intensifies the fears of the white community while relieving the guilt. And I feel that we must always work with an effective, powerful weapon and method that brings about tangible results. But it is not enough for me to stand before you tonight and condemn riots. It would be morally irresponsible for me to do that without, at the same time, condemning the contingent, intolerable conditions that exist in our society. These conditions are the things that cause individuals to feel that they have no other alternative than to engage in violent rebellions to get attention. And I must say tonight that a riot is the language of the unheard. And what is it America has failed to hear? It has failed to hear that the plight of the negro poor has worsened over the last twelve or fifteen years. It has failed to hear that the promises of freedom and justice have not been met. And it has failed to hear that large segments of white society are more concerned about tranquility and the status quo than about justice and humanity.

Now every year about this time, our newspapers and our televisions and people generally start talking about the long hot summer ahead. What always bothers me is that the long hot summer has always been preceded by a long cold winter. And the great problem is that the nation has not used its winters creatively enough to develop the program, to develop the kind of massive acts of concern that will bring about a solution to the problem. And so we must still face the fact that our nation's summers of riots are caused by our nations winters of delay. As long as justice is postponed we always stand on the verge of these darker nights of social disruption. The question now, is whether America is prepared to do something massively, affirmatively and forthrightly about the great problem we face in the area of race and the problem which can bring the curtain of doom down on American civilization if it is not solved. And I would like to talk for the next few minutes about some of the things that must be done if we are to solve this problem.

The first thing I would like to mention is that there must be a recognition on the part of everybody in this nation that America is still a racist country. Now however unpleasant that sounds, it is the truth. And we will never solve the problem of racism until there is a recognition of the fact that racism still stands at the center of so much of our nation and we must see racism for what it is. It is the nymph of an inferior people. It is the notion that one group has all of the knowledge, all of the insights, all of the purity, all of the work, all of the dignity. And another group is worthless, on a lower level of humanity, inferior. To put it in philosophical language, racism is not based on some empirical generalization which, after some studies, would come to conclusion that these people are behind because of environmental conditions. Racism is based on an ontological affirmation. It is the notion that the very being of a people is inferior. And their ultimate logic of racism is genocide. Hitler was a very sick man. He was one of the great tragedies of history. But he was very honest. He took his racism to its logical conclusion. The minute his racism caused him to sickly feel and go about saying that there was something innately inferior about the Jew he ended up killing six million Jews. The ultimate logic of racism is genocide, and if one says that one is not good enough to have a job that is a solid quality job, if one is not good enough to have access to public accommodations, if one is not good enough to have the right to vote, if one is not good enough to live next door to him, if one is not good enough to marry his daughter because of his race. Then at that moment that person is saying that that person who is not good to do all of this is not fit to exist or to live. And that is the ultimate logic of racism. And we've got to see that this still exists in American society. And until it is removed, there will be people walking the streets of live and living in their humble dwellings feeling that they are nobody, feeling that they have no dignity and feeling that they are not respected. The first thing that must be on the agenda of our nation is to get rid of racism.

to read the rest click here (http://www.gphistorical.org/mlk/mlkspeech/)

[eweissenbach]

Weissenbach:
Maybe you can answer my question to you, No my parents did not tell me to obey the law nor respect the police, be honest it some way was instilled in me and all my friendsI grew up with, ,You are also a product of all your neighbors, We would never disobey a cop or any of our seniors, Now compare my bringing up to the blacks today there is no comparison they are unruly, don't respect their elders and so on not all but the majority, you think a black parent today would turn their children away from the teaching of the leaders , It's all about how you are raised , example look at Browns stepfather two charges of selling dope, spent five years in prison the mother is up on charges of beating up some one selling t-shirts and hospitalized .

We are obviously not communicating effectively. I will take responsibility - I am sorry.

[xNYer]

There is a deal of sterotyping of the black community on this subject. To excuse sterotyping, comments wil be made which state something like not all of them (obvious who that is) but so many, don't raise their children properly.

What is like to feel like you re treated differently because of your race. Do policemen profile, is that ok, and how would you feel if you were the one being profiled. I don't see any indication here that people see an alternate viewpoint or accept there may be some complexity in viewing this issue.

[eweissenbach]

Many have suggested that we need leadership. Many respect Rev. King. After reading this speech I'm left with the feeling that not much has changed in 50 years. He offers a solution that still feels valid.

"The Other America"

Speech by
Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr.

Grosse Pointe High School - March 14, 1968


I want to discuss the race problem tonight and I
to read the rest click here (http://www.gphistorical.org/mlk/mlkspeech/)

The man was extraordinarily wise and eloquent.

[Pointer]

The presentation of this situation is driving us all apart.

And why can we not discuss racial profiling. If an important discussion is to take place, everything should be on the table. This is a one sided conversation, and that is what makes it a divider. Do we ever hear the truth. We hear about cops killing black youth..that is it. Is that ll that is happening...I think not, but some will not engage in REAL conversation because it is not comfortable and good conversation ending up with solutions is normally not all that comfy.

I think the issue is bigger then what we are privy to on the media. And we need to have dialog. I'm rather impressed at how the New Yorkers are handling this. They handled 911 so I guess they can handle just about anything. Nationwide there are far to many people being lost to gun fire. Our children aren't safe and we need to re evaluate. Instead of take sides and nothing getting accomplished we need to think of how we can do things differently.
My hope is that future generations will look back at this period in history as being pretty primitive and not the beginning of the end. Other civilizations have come and gone and ours can too.

[Rags123]

I think the issue is bigger then what we are privy to on the media. And we need to have dialog. I'm rather impressed at how the New Yorkers are handling this. They handled 911 so I guess they can handle just about anything. Nationwide there are far to many people being lost to gun fire. Our children aren't safe and we need to re evaluate. Instead of take sides and nothing getting accomplished we need to think of how we can do things differently.
My hope is that future generations will look back at this period in history as being pretty primitive and not the beginning of the end. Other civilizations have come and gone and ours can too.


I agree and have always agreed that dialogue is needed quickly.

But dialogue assumes that it is a two way conversation. Read some of the posts on here on this thread at this minor level. If you say how "we were brought up" you are called on it and that guilt trip begins which tells you not to say that...it is bad.

If you hear racial profiling...hey, why can we not talk about that and how the police use it to PROTECT EVERYONE ?

You see,there will be NO dialogue, simply speeches, when any incident between black and white is seen through the color of the skin.

The two incidents in question, in NYC and in Ferguson, had predictable endings and whether the skin color was black or white would not have altered
the endings. We have leaders who see it all through the prism of skin color and thus there will be no dialogue.....just protestation and consistent and ongoing laying of guilt on others.

That guilt that is transmitted is power to many.

[graciegirl]

There is a deal of sterotyping of the black community on this subject. To excuse sterotyping, comments wil be made which state something like not all of them (obvious who that is) but so many, don't raise their children properly.

What is like to feel like you re treated differently because of your race. Do policemen profile, is that ok, and how would you feel if you were the one being profiled. I don't see any indication here that people see an alternate viewpoint or accept there may be some complexity in viewing this issue.

Yes they profile. When they profile me, they see a law abiding old lady. It is just common sense to look at ...........um...trends? That goes against every bit of common sense in the world to not summarize. If it looks like a duck it isn't a moose.


I pretty much guess what people are like by where they wear their pants. Or where they don't wear their pants.

Like on bandstands. Of course we all profile. It is stupid not to protect yourself from trouble.

[xNYer]

So let me see if i understand your position.

If you are an older white woman you will be profiled and treated a certain way.

If you are black it is appropriate to be profiled and treated in a different manner, regardless of your own personal behavior?

Since it is common sense to profile, it is also ok for the police to treat black individuals differently then whites. We should view each of us not as individuals, but as a member of a group and treated accordingly?

[graciegirl]

So let me see if i understand your position.

If you are an older white woman you will be profiled and treated a certain way.

If you are black it is appropriate to be profiled and treated in a different manner, regardless of your own personal behavior?

Since it is common sense to profile, it is also ok for the police to treat black individuals differently then whites. We should view each of us not as individuals, but as a member of a group and treated accordingly?


If you were to take a lie detector test, you would have to say that young urban poor men in downtown areas scare you. BLACK, WHITE OR PURPLE.

When large groups of people of a group, such as KKK dress alike, it is wise to consider they are up to no good. I would try so hard to make a go of it if people were jumping to judgment about my group. Watch our recent immigrants. YES they will be profiled.We will see what they do about adverse opinion. My money is on them. Everyone does and if you say you don't you are not being honest. Some people think all Catholic priests are pedophiles. I personally don't think so, but I think a lot of them are gay, and there is nothing wrong with that. People THINK things based on what they see and the behavior of people. I have a general opinion about people as a group who ONLY watch MSNBC.

People think nothing of ridiculing and calling people Rednecks, especially those from the part of the country that doesn't farm.

[billethkid]

I will participate in the straying from my own threads intent because I have had enough about the negative aspects continually presented about profiling.

An example......high crime in an area with high population of people of color....the jails and prisons in the area are overpopulated with a similar content of folks of color. Now just what do you think the watch commander is advising his people to look for? His people include many folks of color?

Will you all be happier when the only thing one is allowed to report is that a person robbed and killed another person today....go look for them......not white! not black! not male! not female! not young! not old!......get it? How stupid is this.....however that is what it seems will make the special interest, racism promoting few in this country......MOST OF WHOM HAVE NOTHING INVESTED IN THE ISSUE!!!!

Yes it is an opinion and y'all are entitled but let it be know the minority report (NOT RACE!!!!) is hearby acknowledged.

[xNYer]

But what is the effect on society if the police treat black people differently. Dressing a certain way is a behavioral decision, the color of one's skin is not.

[tomwed]

The man was extraordinarily wise and eloquent.
thanks ed,
too bad for a lot of kids you had to give up teaching

[Rags123]

I will participate in the straying from my own threads intent because I have had enough about the negative aspects continually presented about profiling.

An example......high crime in an area with high population of people of color....the jails and prisons in the area are overpopulated with a similar content of folks of color. Now just what do you think the watch commander is advising his people to look for? His people include many folks of color?

Will you all be happier when the only thing one is allowed to report is that a person robbed and killed another person today....go look for them......not white! not black! not male! not female! not young! not old!......get it? How stupid is this.....however that is what it seems will make the special interest, racism promoting few in this country......MOST OF WHOM HAVE NOTHING INVESTED IN THE ISSUE!!!!

Yes it is an opinion and y'all are entitled but let it be know the minority report (NOT RACE!!!!) is hearby acknowledged.

Just offering my support for this post.

[graciegirl]

The large and commonly consulted public opinion polls this morning show support of the law in both instances.

I am sure if a white youth shut the door twice on a police officer who had been called to the scene of a burglary and who had a description of the youth including his yellow shoes........ If he punched the officer who was sitting in his car, he would be shot. I am absolutely sure of it.

I think that the whole thing started over the fact that only a LITTLE was stolen. I don't look at it that way. It is wrong to steal and that is why we have laws to protect individuals and businesses. The family immediately called it character assassination when the video emerged showing their son towering over the irate business owner. I have to think that this kid was very over the top in his actions to everyone. He was a big kid and used to having his way.

That is why as parents you try to instill early on that you must respect your parent(s), the teacher, the law and also give children your values...

I think part of that happened here. The values part. I don't care what color he was. He should not have done what he did and now he is dead. Black, white or purple, I think the same thing would have happened.

I think bad stuff happens more to black people who live in urban poor conditions in a one parent family situation because the mother and father are both not present working together for the good of their children in MANY cases. I think that is the root of the issue. I really do. But I don't have a clue how to fix it. The welfare system encourages it. They won't fund couples as easily as single moms, nor should they. I wish the men in every community worked to support and encourage and guide their children and love their children's mom.

When you are raising children it helps if there are more of you than there are of them.

[rp001]

I saw a photo online yesterday of one of the women protestors in Ferguson holding up a sign saying; (you may not believe this but it's true)

"NO MOTHER SHOULD HAVE TO WORRY THAT EVERY TIME HER SON HOLDS UP A STORE HE WILL BE SHOT"

That pretty much explains the mentality of these people that are protesting. They have been completely brainwashed by some of the special interest groups that when a black kid is shot, it's never justified.

Your facts. That bogus photo was photoshopped and actually read when he leaves home. My god, the crap that is spewed here.

[billethkid]

If the media would not continue to glorify the protests by giving them so much coverage the disruption would not be seen as broad as they make it out to be.

For example the 20 or so that were demonstrating in Orlando yesterday, trying to block an intersection.....totally and absolutely news unworthy....yet there the cameras were watching a bunch of parrots walking around with their hands up without a clue what they are doing there except being a public nuisance.

[dewilson58]

If the media would not continue to glorify the protests by giving them so much coverage the disruption would not be seen as broad as they make it out to be.

For example the 20 or so that were demonstrating in Orlando yesterday, trying to block an intersection.....totally and absolutely news unworthy....yet there the cameras were watching a bunch of parrots walking around with their hands up without a clue what they are doing there except being a public nuisance.

Gots to get those ratings.

[Rags123]

If the media would not continue to glorify the protests by giving them so much coverage the disruption would not be seen as broad as they make it out to be.

For example the 20 or so that were demonstrating in Orlando yesterday, trying to block an intersection.....totally and absolutely news unworthy....yet there the cameras were watching a bunch of parrots walking around with their hands up without a clue what they are doing there except being a public nuisance.

For what is might be worth....

.....If there is a racial bias in our justice system, then EVERYONE should attack that issue and solve it. The two cases being bandied about and making the headlines, in my opinion, had nothing to do with race. It is not racial simply because the media and a few others with agendas call it that.

.....To make a good point, the choice of the fellow in Ferguson and the fellow in NYC were not good choices. In Ferguson, the man strongarms a store, consistently refuses to obey a police officer and then attacks that police officer. In NYC, BLACK SHOP OWNERS had called the police to complain about the man killed and asked the police to come. He had over 30 arrests, and it matters not what they were for. I am sure that there are other cases that can be used for a national movement.

.....BOTH grand juries followed the law. We are a country of law. In Ferguson, an indictment would have been totally opposed to the law. In NYC, the hold used was against police procedure, no doubt. It was not against any law. The choke hold was a DETERMINING factor along with a myriad of other physical problems this man had.

.....These marches and destruction are widening the gap, not narrowing it. There are a number of folks not of color who really have empathy to what is going on, but not going to get involved in this stuff.

.....The media is complicit because there are folks, and I cannot even fathom this, who enjoy watching this stuff. The media know who to follow and who to watch to make this kind of "news" and those who are in the power, know the media will prostitute themselves for this kind of film.

.....The leadership is really bad. The largest and best known leader of these movements is a convicted tax cheat, a man who lost his law liscense and is best known to me for the choice and selective words he had for those of the Jewish faith during the Brawley case in NY. This is not someone that anyone should follow.

MLK, as I said before would stay within the law...he would use the law to have things changed. His actions would get support from lawmakers who just will not get dirty associating with the likes of Sharpton. A huge mistake is being made by the black community, and it will undermine the police and what they rightfully are trying to accomplish.

Does anyone think that these actions and inflamatory words will change any bias that might exist in a policeman ? Or might it not make it worse ? Will the next black young man think he can be a hero by not listening to a police officer ?

I think that nobody wants racial bias in our justice system. I think that nobody wants our police to be handcuffed and unable to protect us. I think that people are just sick of certain groups looking for excuses to cry race. If they think that will actually help the problem or the people involved, they really have not thought this through.

OR, maybe they have and this serves their purpose, ie. continue to take advantage of a group and insure that they are always victims !!!

[njbchbum]

Your facts. That bogus photo was photoshopped and actually read when he leaves home. My god, the crap that is spewed here.

Correction already noted in thread response #8. Thus, no more of what you would call crap. Perhaps you didn't read the entire thread.

Response #8:
I saw that too and it turns out to be false. It's a Photoshop change of this photo. click here (http://blogs.riverfronttimes.com/dailyrft/2014/10/jailhouse_tales_an_protester_who_was_arrested_sund ay_night_tells_about_her_experience.php)

If you go to snopes.com there is more on the subject.

[rp001]

Your facts. That bogus photo was photoshopped and actually read when he leaves home. My god, the crap that is spewed here.
Are right. I was too disgusted to read the entire thread!

[TexaninVA]

It seems to me there is a totally unfair and misguided attempt by some special interest groups and media to create a general condition of mistrust with law enforcement in America.

It seems we are continuing to move in the direction of what group can speak the loudest, or get the most media attention with two very concerning aspects.

Complete disregard for whether the allegations are true or not....it just does not seem to matter anymore.

Secondly how can, like it or not, an isolated incident be blown into an across the board condition nation wide?

I personally object to the notion the law enforcement community in general is not to be trusted to do what is right. I also firmly reject that rioting and camera hogging become the new face of the wants and needs of Americans.

My position has nothing to do with who was right or wrong......I like millions upon millions DO NOT HAVE enough credible information (non media or special interest or alarmists like Sharpton/Jackson) to take a stand.

My position is all about the way some few are trying to change, with some success, what we beleive about law enforcement in America!!!!!

Regarding “unfair and misguided attempt” you mentioned at the opening of this thread … here’s my two cents:

A certain segment of the ideological spectrum seeks to have people believe that white cops are somehow out there actively hunting young black males to shoot or, in effect, assassinate. This is idiotic on its face, and obviously untrue based on the numbers alone … ie total population of blacks, total number of police and total numbers shot etc. Yet the media seems to be like a cat with catnip …they can’t let go nor can other who fall for this rot.

A lot of the *organized* effort behind the scenes is driven by the usual radicals who’ve been doing this since the 1960s and whose aim is to, if they get lucky, tear down the evil yadda, yadda capitalist system. The moronic level of thought is what gets me … it’s so depressing that there are apparently that many people in our country and culture for whom truly, the facts don’t matter. It’s as if the truth in Ferguson is irrelevant. (note: Garner incident in NYC a different story).

Ok so what would make the critics happy? Hmmm, how about if the cops until further notice no longer provide police protection in high crime black neighborhoods because it’s becoming too much of a civil and social liability? Personally, if I was a cop, I would either find a new line or work or simply look the other way and not get involved unless absolutely unavoidable. Who loses in that case? The black underclass, as usual. I think that’s the point Rags was making in an earlier post.

[billethkid]

Regarding “unfair and misguided attempt” you mentioned at the opening of this thread … here’s my two cents:

A certain segment of the ideological spectrum seeks to have people believe that white cops are somehow out there actively hunting young black males to shoot or, in effect, assassinate. This is idiotic on its face, and obviously untrue based on the numbers alone … ie total population of blacks, total number of police and total numbers shot etc. Yet the media seems to be like a cat with catnip …they can’t let go nor can other who fall for this rot.

A lot of the *organized* effort behind the scenes is driven by the usual radicals who’ve been doing this since the 1960s and whose aim is to, if they get lucky, tear down the evil yadda, yadda capitalist system. The moronic level of thought is what gets me … it’s so depressing that there are apparently that many people in our country and culture for whom truly, the facts don’t matter. It’s as if the truth in Ferguson is irrelevant. (note: Garner incident in NYC a different story).

Ok so what would make the critics happy? Hmmm, how about if the cops until further notice no longer provide police protection in high crime black neighborhoods because it’s becoming too much of a civil and social liability? Personally, if I was a cop, I would either find a new line or work or simply look the other way and not get involved unless absolutely unavoidable. Who loses in that case? The black underclass, as usual. I think that’s the point Rags was making in an earlier post.

well summarized.
As far as making the critics happy to be fair we would have to discontinue police protection in high crime neighborhoods, not just blacks. The end result would most likely be very similar.

The other statistic that should be published daily for a 3 month period are:

how many whites killed by whites in the last 24 hours? in both white and black neighborhoods.
how many whites killed by blacks in the last 24 hours? in both white and black neighborhoods.
how many blacks killed by blacks in the last 24 hours? in both white and black neighborhoods.
how many blacks killed by whites in the last 24 hours? in both white and black neighborhoods.

Then we can determine if there is a pattern and see if that would help clarify the environment our law enforcement faces.

Also during that 3 month period, maybe weekly, have Sharpton give us his review of what he thinks is happening on an ongoing, daily basis. Let's see if he is as articulate with the day to day reality instead of the strategically selected, isolated case that fits his agenda.

Now what could be more fair.

As for the media they need to go to BOTH the white and black neighborhoods, AWAY from the staged protests and get a cross section commentary from the residents what they think about what is reported above.

I know......too much oxygen in the brain today....eh?

[scarecrow1]

The officer did know about the robbery,he said he asked them to go to the sidewalk while he was waiting for backup when Brown approached him.

[graciegirl]

The officer did know about the robbery,he said he asked them to go to the sidewalk while he was waiting for backup when Brown approached him.


According to the grand jury report the officer was called because of the robbery and the color of Brown's shoes were mentioned.

[Advogado]

So, you mean just live with the rioting, destruction and increased racial tension ??

My point was, for example, the sad case in NY where a choke hold was put on a suspect and he died. The ENTIRE SITUATION should not have happened. Had the suspect, and it matters not what he is a suspect about, simply refused to answer the police or listen to what they wanted him to do. THAT was what happened BEFORE THE ACTUAL INCIDENT.

Same thing in Ferguson. Suspect listens to the police and NOT UNFAIR DEMANDS, and he is alive, the city is not half burned to the ground, etc etc etc.

Keep in mind...if police stop you and you did nothing, you MIGHT be inconvenienced and you might have your feelings hurt, but that is it and any cop who oversteps what he or she does when stopping you is in trouble and you are on your way.
I agree with your basic point, but look at the video again.

The so-called "chokehold" was not really a chokehold. It did not cut off Garner's breathing or restrict his carotid artery. In any event, it was released long before Garner lost consciousness. This was a case where an asthmatic, 400-pound, career criminal resisted arrest, had a heart attack during the ensuing struggle, and died. Too bad, but the fault was that of the criminal, not that of the police.

[janmcn]

I agree with your basic point, but look at the video again.

The so-called "chokehold" was not really a chokehold. It did not cut off Garner's breathing or restrict his carotid artery. In any event, it was released long before Garner lost consciousness. This was a case where an asthmatic, 400-pound, career criminal resisted arrest, had a heart attack during the ensuing struggle, and died. Too bad, but the fault was that of the criminal, not that of the police.

Very interesting. If all this is true, why did the coroner who performed the autopsy classify it as a homicide? Do you suppose the coroner had more information?

[graciegirl]

...

[Advogado]

Very interesting. If all this is true, why did the coroner who performed the autopsy classify it as a homicide? Do you suppose the coroner had more information?

A homicide is a death of a human being due to actions by another human being. A homicide may or may not be a crime. It may be justified (e.g., police using reasonable force to make an arrest) or the result of a noncriminal accident (e.g., an auto accident not involving gross negligence).

Garner's death certainly resulted in part from actions by the police, which he provoked. As the grand jury apparently confirmed and contrary to the media headlines, Garner was clearly NOT choked to death by the police. If he hadn't had the underlying medical conditions and resisted arrest, he would be alive today. The actions of the police were not excessive. Garner died because he weighed 400 pounds, had asthma, had a heart condition, and resisted arrest.

[Rags123]

Very interesting. If all this is true, why did the coroner who performed the autopsy classify it as a homicide? Do you suppose the coroner had more information?

" there is a difference between an act that is banned in the NYPD’s rulebook and one that is deemed criminal. “There is no explicit law that criminalizes the use of a chokehold on someone either by a police officer or someone else,” wrote O’Donnell."


Daniel Pantaleo not indicted: Why the NYPD officer wasn’t indicted in the chokehold death of Eric Garner. (http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2014/12/daniel_pantaleo_not_indicted_why_the_nypd_officer_ wasn_t_indicted_in_the.html)

"In the aftermath of the verdict, many will likely point to the fact that the coroner's report ruled Garner's death a homicide, and that chokeholds are expressly forbidden by the NYPD. As the New York Daily News pointed out, the autopsy also "determined the victim’s asthma, obesity and high blood pressure were also contributing factors in his death." Some will cite the police claims that Garner was resisting arrest. Others are already contending that body cameras for police are not the answer."

No Indictment In NYPD Eric Garner Chokehold Case - The Atlantic (http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/12/eric-garner-grand-jury-no-indictment-nypd/383392/)

IT IS THE LAW AND WE ARE A NATION OF LAWS !!!!!!!

The grand juries in both cases are instructed to rule by the LAW.

Sometimes it is not to our liking when the law does not conform to what we want, but it is the law.

Taking down the police and calling race is NOT the way to react in any and all cases. The accusations are just plan outrageous....just as sad as the death of this man who could still be alive had he listened and conformed.

Please be aware the police were there ONLY because BLACK business people in that area called and SPECIFICALLY SAID THIS MAN WAS CHRONICALLY OUTSIDE AND SCARING CUSTOMERS and requested that they come and do something.

[janmcn]

A homicide is a death of a human being due to actions by another human being. A homicide may or may not be a crime. It may be justified (e.g., police using reasonable force to make an arrest) or the result of a noncriminal accident (e.g., an auto accident not involving gross negligence).

Garner's death certainly resulted in part from actions by the police, which he provoked. As the grand jury apparently confirmed and contrary to the media headlines, Garner was clearly NOT choked to death by the police. If he hadn't had the underlying medical conditions and resisted arrest, he would be alive today. The actions of the police were not excessive. Garner died because he weighed 400 pounds, had asthma, had a heart condition, and resisted arrest.


Eric Garner's cause of death was listed as asphyxiation, not a heart attack. All of the extenuating circumstances of his death will be presented when a federal grand jury is convened next month under the direction of Attorney General nominee Loretta Lynch. Then Officer Daniel Pantaleo will get his day in court.

[Abby10]

well summarized.
As far as making the critics happy to be fair we would have to discontinue police protection in high crime neighborhoods, not just blacks. The end result would most likely be very similar.

The other statistic that should be published daily for a 3 month period are:

how many whites killed by whites in the last 24 hours? in both white and black neighborhoods.
how many whites killed by blacks in the last 24 hours? in both white and black neighborhoods.
how many blacks killed by blacks in the last 24 hours? in both white and black neighborhoods.
how many blacks killed by whites in the last 24 hours? in both white and black neighborhoods.

Then we can determine if there is a pattern and see if that would help clarify the environment our law enforcement faces.

Also during that 3 month period, maybe weekly, have Sharpton give us his review of what he thinks is happening on an ongoing, daily basis. Let's see if he is as articulate with the day to day reality instead of the strategically selected, isolated case that fits his agenda.

Now what could be more fair.

As for the media they need to go to BOTH the white and black neighborhoods, AWAY from the staged protests and get a cross section commentary from the residents what they think about what is reported above.

I know......too much oxygen in the brain today....eh?

I agree unequivocally with all that you have said. Then the truth would really be told. But, alas, we can only dream it would happen. Instead, I am concerned that if we continue down this path of vilifying policemen in these kinds of situations, we are looking at a society that will degenerate into mass mayhem because their hands will be tied to do anything. Respect today seems to be a four letter word to some people and that is not meant to be racial as I have personally seen the lack of it in more than one race. As many on this forum have already said, a lot of it comes from upbringing or lack thereof, and the breakdown of the traditional family along with the values that many of us were raised with that now seem to be taboo to some.

[Rags123]

Eric Garner's cause of death was listed as asphyxiation, not a heart attack. All of the extenuating circumstances of his death will be presented when a federal grand jury is convened next month under the direction of Attorney General nominee Loretta Lynch. Then Officer Daniel Pantiluna will get his day in court.

Trying to read the tone of this post, but whatever, this case does not address the subject of the thread simply because race had ZERO to do with this incident.

But, it is Germaine as we watch the Sharpton' s of the world make it that way. I am so glad that fewer and fewer people watch this person on TV. His making it about race simply perpetuates this myth about police. The fact that the Sharpton's just flat out LIE to their listeners and those who get riled up does not make it a fact.

I am amazed at the lack,of common sense of people to not dig up facts, instead of simply being taken in by a man who is not only called a charlatan, but has been convicted of things that normal people would not even consider.

This case is not even close to about race. It is insulting to listen to people talk about it as if it were. Speaks to those a followers.

[eweissenbach]

I have seen the Garner tape a number of times now, and I don't see it as a racial issue, but I do see it as excessive force. There were four armed officers surrounding the suspect. He did not appear to be aggressive and was polite. It seems to me that the officers should have tried to talk it out with him, and either get him to move along, or agree to be taken into custody. What was he going to do with four uniformed armed officers on the scene? Not likely he was going to try to fight them. He was not armed, and they should have simply said "for our safety we are going to have to frisk you sir". If at any point he had become aggressive and begun to fight, then use necessary force to subdue, but from what I have seen, the one officer overreacted. Whether he directly caused the mans death I don't know, but I think the whole issue could have been handled with a great deal more finesse and the man would be alive and the officer would not be facing action.

[Advogado]

Eric Garner's cause of death was listed as asphyxiation, not a heart attack. All of the extenuating circumstances of his death will be presented when a federal grand jury is convened next month under the direction of Attorney General nominee Loretta Lynch. Then Officer Daniel Pantaleo will get his day in court.
Nobody said it was a heart attack. Garner died as a result of reasonable force being applied when he resisted arrest. His underlying medical conditions caused that reasonable force to result in his death. A New York grand jury agreed with this analysis.

If the media and politicians like Di Blasio hadn't distorted the matter by falsely describing Garner as a "chokehold victim", the grand jury decision would have been the end of it. Moral of the story: Habitual criminals with serious underlying medical conditions should consider another career path but, if they continue to commit crimes, they should not resist arrest.

As to the probable end of this story: Even if, for political reasons, Holder or his successor con a federal grand jury into issuing an indictment, there is no way in the world that a jury will ever find Officer Pantaleo guilty of a crime. However, the whole episode will probably so demoralize the NYPD that New York City will revert to the crime-infested state of affairs that existed prior to Mayors Gulliani and Bloomberg having the courage to crack down on criminals like Garner--which is probably what the citizens of the city deserve for electing Di Blasio.

[billethkid]

Eric Garner's cause of death was listed as asphyxiation, not a heart attack. All of the extenuating circumstances of his death will be presented when a federal grand jury is convened next month under the direction of Attorney General nominee Loretta Lynch. Then Officer Daniel Pantaleo will get his day in court.

Is there an implication all the extenuating circumstances were not presented?
If yes, why?

The officer did have his day in court.....and that is the objection. Some just do not like the verdict.

[janmcn]

Is there an implication all the extenuating circumstances were not presented?
If yes, why?

The officer did have his day in court.....and that is the objection. Some just do not like the verdict.

Grand jury testimony is not a trial. There is no judge. Nobody knows what evidence was presented. It is all done in secret. From what has been reported in the press, no lesser charges were applied for such as manslaughter or negligent homicide.

Officer Pantaleo was not found not guilty. There is no double jeopardy is grand jury testimony. The federal prosecutor can take it to a grand jury as many times as it takes to get a trial.

The state prosecutor who presented this case should resign. If he couldn't get this case bound over for trial, he doesn't deserve the job.

[graciegirl]

Grand jury testimony is not a trial. There is no judge. Nobody knows what evidence was presented. It is all done in secret. From what has been reported in the press, no lesser charges were applied for such as manslaughter or negligent homicide.

Officer Pantaleo was not found not guilty. There is no double jeopardy is grand jury testimony. The federal prosecutor can take it to a grand jury as many times as it takes to get a trial.

The state prosecutor who presented this case should resign. If he couldn't get this case bound over for trial, he doesn't deserve the job.

What valid information makes you think that?

[Rags123]

Grand jury testimony is not a trial. There is no judge. Nobody knows what evidence was presented. It is all done in secret. From what has been reported in the press, no lesser charges were applied for such as manslaughter or negligent homicide.

Officer Pantaleo was not found not guilty. There is no double jeopardy is grand jury testimony. The federal prosecutor can take it to a grand jury as many times as it takes to get a trial.

The state prosecutor who presented this case should resign. If he couldn't get this case bound over for trial, he doesn't deserve the job.

This is riveting....

First you say "Nobody knows what evidence was presented." and THEN you say "If he couldn't get this case bound over for trial, he doesn't deserve the job."

IF nobody knows what evidence was presented, then WHY are you saying he does no deserve the job....BASED ON WHAT ?

I will repeat once again to you and to Al Sharpton, who is the only other person I have heard make such a remark as yours, we are a nation of LAWS and no law was violated. Was police procedure violated,,,perhaps an time will tell. The man did his job.......TELL US WHAT LAW WAS VIOLATED PLEASE.

[janmcn]

What valid information makes you think that?

Info from Eric Garner (http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/eric-garner-grand-jury-evidence-public-thursday-article-1.2033065)

Note the part that says "Grand Jury testimony doesn't decide innocent or guilt, instead only ruling on whether criminal charges in the case are viable".

Any more questions, use the google. There are thousands of articles on the subject. Pick your own valid source.

[Rags123]

Info from Eric Garner (http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/eric-garner-grand-jury-evidence-public-thursday-article-1.2033065)

Note the part that says "Grand Jury testimony doesn't decide innocent or guilt, instead only ruling on whether criminal charges in the case are viable".

Any more questions, use the google. There are thousands of articles on the subject. Pick your own valid source.

I keep asking you to present ONE PIECE of information to substantiate the BREAKING OF THE LAW ? Not police procedure, not bad practice....

BUT

BREAKING THE LAW which is the reason for a grand jury to meet and vote.

Thanking and hoping that maybe this time you will respond.

I am assuming that you are aware that a LAW must be broken to make charges viable !!!!

[graciegirl]

Info from Eric Garner (http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/eric-garner-grand-jury-evidence-public-thursday-article-1.2033065)

Note the part that says "Grand Jury testimony doesn't decide innocent or guilt, instead only ruling on whether criminal charges in the case are viable".

Any more questions, use the google. There are thousands of articles on the subject. Pick your own valid source.


The only thing we have to decide innocence or guilt...so far...in the U.S. is whether a person is charged with a viable crime. Or a chargeable crime or a crime. They did not find the police officer commited a crime. That sounds like he is innocent. Recently, in the last ten days, President Obama backed up Grand Jury procedures as valid and proper. Our legal system has spoken.

He would be alive today, if he had not resisted arrest. NO ONE is above the law. Not my nice kids or your nice kids. Not my Catholic friends, or my Jewish friends, or my Asian ones or my black ones or my white ones. Not my rich friends or my poor friends, or my smart cousins or my stupid cousins. NO ONE.

[TexaninVA]

...

The state prosecutor who presented this case should resign. If he couldn't get this case bound over for trial, he doesn't deserve the job.

What are you talking about?? Since when is he duty bound to bring every case that comes before the grand jury to trial? If that was the case, why even bother having a grand jury? Just maybe convene a Star Chamber and then convict the accused to make the mob happy?

[janmcn]

I keep asking you to present ONE PIECE of information to substantiate the BREAKING OF THE LAW ? Not police procedure, not bad practice....

BUT

BREAKING THE LAW which is the reason for a grand jury to meet and vote.

Thanking and hoping that maybe this time you will respond.

I am assuming that you are aware that a LAW must be broken to make charges viable !!!!

The only thing we have to decide innocence or guilt...so far...in the U.S. is whether a person is charged with a viable crime. Or a chargeable crime or a crime. They did not find the police officer commited a crime. That sounds like he is innocent. Recently, in the last ten days, President Obama backed up Grand Jury procedures as valid and proper. Our legal system has spoken.

He would be alive today, if he had not resisted arrest. NO ONE is above the law. Not my nice kids or your nice kids. Not my Jewish friends, or my Asian ones or my black one or my white ones.


It's not up to me to present evidence in this case. According to Attorney General Eric Holder, a federal grand jury will be empaneled to determine whether Eric Garner's civil rights were violated. This federal grand jury is expected to be seated in a timely manner.

AG Holder spoke last Wednesday night if anyone wants to google his speech or watch it on UTube. Stay tuned. This case is far from over.

[manaboutown]

Eric Garner had at least 31 prior arrests and was out on bail, facing three other charges. According to Congressman Peter King Garner had been shaking down shop owners and preventing their customers from entering their stores, disrupting the area which comprises mostly minority folks. It seems the merchants had gone to the African American Chief of Police and requested police assistance. The police sergeant in charge of and supervising Garner's bust who was there the whole time was an African American, Kizzy Adoni,

One thing that puzzles me is if Garner was truly unable to breath, how could he breath out enough to speak audibly?

[Rags123]

It's not up to me to present evidence in this case. According to Attorney General Eric Holder, a federal grand jury will be empaneled to determine whether Eric Garner's civil rights were violated. This federal grand jury is expected to be seated in a timely manner.

AG Holder spoke last Wednesday night if anyone wants to google his speech or watch it on UTube. Stay tuned. This case is far from over.


I am totally confused. You have asked for a prosecutor to step down because he did not get an indictment, AND you say nobody knows what evidence was presented ! I asked you how you came to that contradictory conclusion. NO RESPONSE.

Youmhave been asked several times as to what law was broken, because you are distressed over no indictment. NO RESPONSE.

I have no desire to watch Mr. Holder. And I just do not understand actually rooting for trouble, as you seem to do.

[gomoho]

Why is everyone ignoring the fact that officer Panteleo was involved in 2 cases prior to this where he was investigated. The first case was a cash settlement out of court and the 2nd is still pending. He also has a history that needs to be considered. I believe this case deserves further investigation.

[janmcn]

Why is everyone ignoring the fact that officer Panteleo was involved in 2 cases prior to this where he was investigated. The first case was a cash settlement out of court and the 2nd is still pending. He also has a history that needs to be considered. I believe this case deserves further investigation.

Attorney General Eric Holder has promised a federal grand jury investigation into whether Eric Garner's civil rights were violated. This grand jury could be empaneled as soon as next month. Federal Prosecutor Loretta Lynch, the attorney general nominee, will be conducting the investigation.

It has also been reported that Governor Cuomo could appoint a special prosecutor to investigate this case. This case is not going away anytime soon, IMO.

It took a long time to convict some of the cops in the Rodney King case, but they were eventually convicted and spent time in jail. The similarities are both cases were caught on camera.

[graciegirl]

Attorney General Eric Holder has promised a federal grand jury investigation into whether Eric Garner's civil rights were violated. This grand jury could be empaneled as soon as next month. Federal Prosecutor Loretta Lynch, the attorney general nominee, will be conducting the investigation.

It has also been reported that Governor Cuomo could appoint a special prosecutor to investigate this case. This case is not going away anytime soon, IMO.

It took a long time to convict some of the cops in the Rodney King case, but they were eventually convicted and spent time in jail. The similarities are both cases were caught on camera.

Jan. So you don't trust police officers? Do you trust teachers? Do you trust Doctors? Do you trust Mayors? Do you trust councilwomen? Do you trust Senators? Do you trust paper journalists? Do you trust Wolfe Blitzer?

[janmcn]

Jan. So you don't trust police officers? Do you trust teachers? Do you trust Doctors? Do you trust Mayors? Do you trust councilwomen? Do you trust Senators? Do you trust paper journalists? Do you trust Wolfe Blitzer?

To the best of my knowledge, teachers, doctors, mayors, councilwomen, senators, journalist, and Wolf Blitzer have not killed anybody recently.

[graciegirl]

To the best of my knowledge, teachers, doctors, mayors, councilwomen, senators, journalist, and Wolf Blitzer have not killed anybody recently.


But MANY MANY MANY urban poor have killed people. MANY. Are they all wrong? Or are they downtrodden, misunderstood, have no recourse but to deal drugs and kill policing their drug business?

What I was suggesting is that many people always take the side of the victim. Sometimes the victim is the victim because they broke the law and did bad stuff. I think both of these men were on a collision course with death. If either were my son, I would have told them the same thing. Straighten up and fly right. Get yourself a job and quit asking for trouble.

[Sandtrap328]

Very probable that Garner was not a stellar citizen with lots of run ins with the law. However, this is not a reason for police to put him in a choke hold to kill him. The officer will most likely be indicted by a Federal grand jury for a civil rights violation. Some cops are bullies and those should be kicked off the force and spend some jail time.

[manaboutown]

Very probable that Garner was not a stellar citizen with lots of run ins with the law. However, this is not a reason for police to put him in a choke hold to kill him. The officer will most likely be indicted by a Federal grand jury for a civil rights violation. Some cops are bullies and those should be kicked off the force and spend some jail time.

Garner was a criminal with 31 arrests. The choke hold did not not kill him. It was used in a conventional takedown supervised by a black female police sergeant because he was resisting arrest. He died of cardiac arrest on his way to the hospital. He was morbidly obese, diabetic, asthmatic, and had other health issues. He obviously lead an unhealthy lifestyle.

[Sandtrap328]

Garner was a criminal with 31 arrests. The choke hold did not not kill him. It was used in a conventional takedown supervised by a black female police sergeant because he was resisting arrest. He died of cardiac arrest on his way to the hospital. He was morbidly obese, diabetic, asthmatic, and had other health issues. He obviously lead an unhealthy lifestyle.

It was ruled a HOMICIDE by the medical examiner. The medical examiner report states that the neck and chest compression as well as how Garner placed was on the sidewalk caused his death. The other health conditions were contributing factors.

Wait to see what happens with aFederal grand jury on a violation of his civil rights issues. This is far from over.

[Advogado]

It was ruled a HOMICIDE by the medical examiner.

It was only a homicide (which may or not be a crime) because of the underlying health issues. Look at the video. The take-down hold did not restrict Garner's breathing or arterial blood flow. There is no way the police action would have resulted in the death of a healthy human being. True, Garner probably would not have died that day if he had not resisted arrest, but that does not make the police action a crime, and there is no way in the world a jury will ever convict any of the police of committing one.

In fact, when Garner said "I can't breathe", he obviously was breathing or he couldn't have spoken. Garner, a career criminal, resisted arrest, and the police used reasonable force to make the arrest. A grand jury looked at the matter and confirmed this interpretation by finding no probable cause that the police committed a crime. The media, by describing Garner as a "chokehold victim", turned a lowlife into a martyr-- as the media did with Trayvon Martin and Eric Brown.

[Happydaz]

As a person who experienced asthma as a youth let me give you an insight into how it feels when your oxygen intake is reduced. You feel as though you "can't breathe." Even though you are still able to talk and stay conscious you have great difficulty breathing. Garner was obviously having trouble getting enough oxygen and was yelling out "I can't breathe" for a reason. The whole situation is unfortunate and I am sure that all involved wish things had turned out differently.

[Sandtrap328]

It was only a homicide (which may or not be a crime) because of the underlying health issues. Look at the video. The take-down hold did not restrict Garner's breathing or arterial blood flow. There is no way the police action would have resulted in the death of a healthy human being. The media, by describing Garner as a "chokehold victim", turned a lowlife into a martyr-- as the media did with Trayvon Martin and Eric Brown.

The autopsy report shows that neck and chest compression along with how Garner was on the sidewalk were the cause of his death. The health factors were contributing factors. It was ruled a HOMICIDE. Let the Federal grand jury sort it out.

[billethkid]

[QUOTE=janmcn;977296]Grand jury testimony is not a trial. There is no judge. Nobody knows what evidence was presented. It is all done in secret. From what has been reported in the press, no lesser charges were applied for such as manslaughter or negligent homicide.

Officer Pantaleo was not found not guilty. There is no double jeopardy is grand jury testimony. The federal prosecutor can take it to a grand jury as many times as it takes to get a trial.

The state prosecutor who presented this case should resign. If he couldn't get this case bound over for trial, he doesn't deserve the job.

Am I the only one who detects a guilty attitude during our law process that preumes one innocent until PROVEN GUILTY???????
Evolved from nothing more than hearsay, hired demonstrators and their allies the media!
So much for due process.....eh?

[billethkid]

To the best of my knowledge, teachers, doctors, mayors, councilwomen, senators, journalist, and Wolf Blitzer have not killed anybody recently.

That we know of and so that logic means what ever is being done is not illegal or questionable until one is caught.

Sounds like every person who serves the public should be wearing a body camera.

[Advogado]

The autopsy report shows that neck and chest compression along with how Garner was on the sidewalk were the cause of his death. The health factors were contributing factors. It was ruled a HOMICIDE. Let the Federal grand jury sort it out.
Everybody would agree that it was a "homicide" in that it resulted from a sick criminal dying as a result of the force that was used, by the police, to arrest him when he resisted arrest. But there is no way that this homicide was a criminal act, as the state grand jury has determined. A federal grand jury is a waste of taxpayer money. Just like there was no violation by the police of state law, the police in no way violated any federal law.

[janmcn]

[QUOTE=janmcn;977296]Grand jury testimony is not a trial. There is no judge. Nobody knows what evidence was presented. It is all done in secret. From what has been reported in the press, no lesser charges were applied for such as manslaughter or negligent homicide.

Officer Pantaleo was not found not guilty. There is no double jeopardy is grand jury testimony. The federal prosecutor can take it to a grand jury as many times as it takes to get a trial.

The state prosecutor who presented this case should resign. If he couldn't get this case bound over for trial, he doesn't deserve the job.

Am I the only one who detects a guilty attitude during our law process that preumes one innocent until PROVEN GUILTY???????
Evolved from nothing more than hearsay, hired demonstrators and their allies the media!
So much for due process.....eh?


Doesn't the same "innocent until proven guilty" apply to Eric Gardner. Too many times, it seems, the police are taking on the role of judge and jury. Unless a policeman's life is in danger, which it very clearly was not in this case, there is no reason for this kind of treatment of a suspect. Garner, BTW, was suspected of selling loose cigarettes and not collecting taxes. What is the penalty for this crime?

Does anyone really think that the thousands of protesters from Maine to California are paid demonstrators? Yesterday there were protests all over Florida, from Jacksonville to Miami.

The District Attorney, in this case, never put lesser charges on the table for the grand jury to consider; such as manslaughter or negligent homicide. If he had, there might have been a different decision, and these demonstrations might have been avoided. It would seem that he has some explaining to do.

[manaboutown]

Garner died as a result of (1) his lifestyle choices, i.e., choosing to stuff enough calories down to weigh about 350 pounds and to become diabetic and develop heart issues, etc., and (2) his behavioral choices, (a) breaking the law and (b) resisting arrest. It is really as plain and simple as that.

[Cedwards38]

I don't think anyone is condemning all of law enforcement. In fact, everyone knows that the vast majority of law officers are good and fair at what they do. It seems to me that the protests are against the very small group of law officers who use bad judgement and excessive force, especially against African-American men.
Every profession has bad apples. Even law officers will admit that there are some bad apples. And when those bad apples take a life, it's cause for notice. I'm not in favor of burning down your town in protest, but I think there may be some reason to justify a reaction.

[Sandtrap328]

Garner died as a result of (1) his lifestyle choices, i.e., choosing to stuff enough calories down to weigh about 350 pounds and to become diabetic and develop heart issues, etc., and (2) his behavioral choices, (a) breaking the law and (b) resisting arrest. It is really as plain and simple as that.

Those were all contributing factors - but the neck and chest compression put on him by the police and the positioning on the sidewalk were the DIRECT causes of his HOMICIDE. Read the medical examiner report.

Let the Federal grand jury decide if his civil rights were violated and if the policeman should be bound over for trial.

[Gary7]

Garner died as a result of (1) his lifestyle choices, i.e., choosing to stuff enough calories down to weigh about 350 pounds and to become diabetic and develop heart issues, etc., and (2) his behavioral choices, (a) breaking the law and (b) resisting arrest. It is really as plain and simple as that.

To make a statement like this is a discredit to all people who have weight issues and/or health issues.
There are many people who are overweight and/or have diabetes or heart issues due to genetics and side effects of prescription drugs.

[Gary7]

I do not understand how someone can watch the video of the arrest of Eric Garner and "know" that racism was NOT involved.
I am not saying it was or was not involved. I truly hope racism was not involved.
An outsider cannot know what was going on inside of head of Officer Daniel Pantaleo at the time the video was taken ... without further investigation.
Unfortunately, racism still exists in this country. We just do not know who is racist or not by watching a video similar to this one.

[gomoho]

I do not understand how someone can watch the video of the arrest of Eric Garner and "know" that racism was NOT involved.
I am not saying it was or was not involved. I truly hope racism was not involved.
An outsider cannot know what was going on inside of head of Officer Daniel Pantaleo at the time the video was taken ... without further investigation.
Unfortunately, racism still exists in this country. We just do not know who is racist or not by watching a video similar to this one.

That is common sense thinking - unfortunately most of the thinking in these cases is based on emotion.

[TexaninVA]

I don't think anyone is condemning all of law enforcement. In fact, everyone knows that the vast majority of law officers are good and fair at what they do. It seems to me that the protests are against the very small group of law officers who use bad judgement and excessive force, especially against African-American men.
Every profession has bad apples. Even law officers will admit that there are some bad apples. And when those bad apples take a life, it's cause for notice. I'm not in favor of burning down your town in protest, but I think there may be some reason to justify a reaction.

Just to clarify ... does this mean you think Officer Wilson in Ferguson used "bad judgment and excessive force" when he shot Michael Brown when Brown was head down and running towards him, and after Brown had already scuffled for Wilson's weapon?

[billethkid]

I don't think anyone is condemning all of law enforcement. In fact, everyone knows that the vast majority of law officers are good and fair at what they do. It seems to me that the protests are against the very small group of law officers who use bad judgement and excessive force, especially against African-American men.
Every profession has bad apples. Even law officers will admit that there are some bad apples. And when those bad apples take a life, it's cause for notice. I'm not in favor of burning down your town in protest, but I think there may be some reason to justify a reaction.

Please provide the basis for this statement.
Part of the problem today is that statements like this are put in print and unfortunately way to many are quick to accept anything that comes their way....especially if it fits their cause...and whether true or not (never seems to matter anymore).

Your statement is what Sharpton and Jackson and the media and the imported protesters would say because it is fuel for their following.

Hopefully your basis is other than the ones listed above.

[Rags123]

I don't think anyone is condemning all of law enforcement. In fact, everyone knows that the vast majority of law officers are good and fair at what they do. It seems to me that the protests are against the very small group of law officers who use bad judgement and excessive force, especially against African-American men.
Every profession has bad apples. Even law officers will admit that there are some bad apples. And when those bad apples take a life, it's cause for notice. I'm not in favor of burning down your town in protest, but I think there may be some reason to justify a reaction.

I will agree that there are bad cops.

I do not agree that everyone is not condemning them, as the cable networks, etc have continually been pounding them.

Have not seen this on the air,..


"NILES, Michigan — Police officers struggling to get through a chaotic scene in Michigan aboard an Amtrak train from Chicago were credited Saturday with preventing even more bloodshed after a man stabbed a conductor and three passengers.

“It was pretty incredible that they may have saved some lives,” passenger Tyler Vandermolen said."



Witness: Police may have saved lives in attack on Amtrak train from Chicago | Chicago Sun-Times (http://chicagosuntimes.com/news/police-multiple-people-stabbed-on-amtrak-train-from-chicago/)

But I did see this....

"A tattooed gang of militants declared open season on the NYPD in the wake of the Eric Garner grand jury decision, according to a threat a police union verified Saturday.

Ten Black Guerrilla Family members are “preparing to shoot on duty police officers,” Sergeants Benevolent Association President Ed Mullins said.

The gang, formed in the 1960s in the California prison system, recently surfaced on the East Coast and Maryland, where members are at the heart of a drug-trafficking and corruption probe within the Baltimore prison system.


EXCLUSIVE: NYPD warned militant group plans to shoot cops - NY Daily News (http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/exclusive-nypd-warned-militant-group-plans-shoot-cops-article-1.2036616)

What is happening now is NOT simply pointing out defective cites that need to be addressed.

It is a national thrashing of those charged with maintaining law and order.

I have met some bad cops, "bad" in my idea....Have not seen many citizens harmed unless acting criminally or in a situation that is suspiciously looking criminal, nor have seen many citizens harmed that do not have a "track record".

These allegations and thus far only verbal assaults have an agenda, and clearing out bad cops is NOT the agenda.

I also join BLT in asking for the credible proof of the assault on blacks so often shouted loudly with only words as evidence.

[graciegirl]

I do not understand how someone can watch the video of the arrest of Eric Garner and "know" that racism was NOT involved.
I am not saying it was or was not involved. I truly hope racism was not involved.
An outsider cannot know what was going on inside of head of Officer Daniel Pantaleo at the time the video was taken ... without further investigation.
Unfortunately, racism still exists in this country. We just do not know who is racist or not by watching a video similar to this one.


I don't know Gary, what was on anybody's mind. BUT it stands out to me that the little puny skinny butt officer was looking at this great big beefy guy towering over him who was saying leave me alone and a bunch of stuff like that. His job was to arrest him. The man refused to be handcuffed. The man was not new to being arrested. What if it was YOUR job to arrest someone who is a LOT bigger than you? I guess you go with martial arts, or wrestling, or one of those things that you are taught in police school. The last thing I thought is the officer was thinking how much pigmentation was present in the man's skin. He was thinking how he could get him in handcuffs and arrested.

Never once did it occur to me that the little officer was trying to kill the big guy. NEVER once. Nor did the thought enter my mind that he was thinking about sociological problems. He may have had a little short man syndrome, a little attitude from THAT, but it never came to my mind that the police officer disliked this fellow due to his race and wanted to kill him. Never once.

I know that that man would be alive today if he had been taught what I had been taught. Do what you are told.Right or wrong the police officer is the boss in this situation.

[Madelaine Amee]

I don't know Gary, what was on anybody's mind. BUT it stands out to me that the little puny skinny butt officer was looking at this great big beefy guy towering over him who was saying leave me alone and a bunch of stuff like that. His job was to arrest him. The man refused to be handcuffed. The man was not new to being arrested. What if it was YOUR job to arrest someone who is a LOT bigger than you? I guess you go with martial arts, or wrestling, or one of those things that you are taught in police school. The last thing I thought is the officer was thinking how much pigmentation was present in the man's skin. He was thinking how he could get him in handcuffs and arrested.

Never once did it occur to me that the little officer was trying to kill the big guy. NEVER once. Nor did the thought enter my mind that he was thinking about sociological problems. He may have had a little short man syndrome, a little attitude from THAT, but it never came to my mind that the police officer disliked this fellow due to his race and wanted to kill him. Never once.

I know that that man would be alive today if he had been taught what I had been taught. Do what you are told.Right or wrong the police officer is the boss in this situation.


But this is not being generally taught Gracie. Remember the time when it was OK to call the police "PIGS"? Unfortunately, the attitude of the public in general has changed.

When we raised our two boys if they had trouble with the police in our small town, they would have had more trouble from their Father for bringing shame to our home! Not so in this day and age.

[Sandtrap328]

[/B][/SIZE]

When we raised our two boys if they had trouble with the police in our small town, they would have had more trouble from their Father for bringing shame to our home! Not so in this day and age.

You do have to remember the cities of St. Louis and New York are not the small town in which you raised your sons. The sociological differences are huge as are attitudes of the citizens.

This is not to say there are excuses for breaking the law. There is a general distrust of police among urban youths in general, though.

[eweissenbach]

I don't know Gary, what was on anybody's mind. BUT it stands out to me that the little puny skinny butt officer was looking at this great big beefy guy towering over him who waYs saying leave me alone and a bunch of stuff like that. His job was to arrest him. The man refused to be handcuffed. The man was not new to being arrested. What if it was YOUR job to arrest someone who is a LOT bigger than you? I guess you go with martial arts, or wrestling, or one of those things that you are taught in police school. The last thing I thought is the officer was thinking how much pigmentation was present in the man's skin. He was thinking how he could get him in handcuffs and arrested.

Never once did it occur to me that the little officer was trying to kill the big guy. NEVER once. Nor did the thought enter my mind that he was thinking about sociological problems. He may have had a little short man syndrome, a little attitude from THAT, but it never came to my mind that the police officer disliked this fellow due to his race and wanted to kill him. Never once.

I know that that man would be alive today if he had been taught what I had been taught. Do what you are told.Right or wrong the police officer is the boss in this situation.

Just a minor correction, there were three other uniformed armed officers surrounding him, not just the skinny butt dude, who appeared to be able to handle himself pretty well. Not saying the officer intentionally killed him, but with four armed police officers around him, it seems to me that it could or even should have been handled with a bit more finesse, and we would have one more human alive and one less cop facing consequences. IMHO incidents like this should prompt police departments to train officers in how to negotiate and diffuse incidents rather than overreacting and possibly causing more harm. Now if the perp attacks or pulls a weapon - fair game.

[graciegirl]

Just a minor correction, there were three other uniformed armed officers surrounding him, not just the skinny butt dude, who appeared to be able to handle himself pretty well. Not saying the officer intentionally killed him, but with four armed police officers around him, it seems to me that it could or even should have been handled with a bit more finesse, and we would have one more human alive and one less cop facing consequences. IMHO incidents like this should prompt police departments to train officers in how to negotiate and diffuse incidents rather than overreacting and possibly causing more harm. Now if the perp attacks or pulls a weapon - fair game.

I saw how many folks were there, Ed. You would have thought Mr. Garner would have been more compliant.

Let me ask you this. If you were in charge and you had to get handcuffs on the guy, what exactly would you have done? I think I would use a stun gun.

This isn't a baby game. It is the law officer's job to ...keep the law, do their job. They can't act like Dr. Phil.

Imagine for a moment that you were in charge of a high school team and you had a big guy who wanted to do it his way. Would you let him, or throw him off the team after thirty run in's with him?

I do NOT believe anyone meant to kill that man.

[eweissenbach]

I saw how many folks were there, Ed. You would have thought Mr. Garner would have been more compliant.

Let me ask you this. If you were in charge and you had to get handcuffs on the guy, what exactly would you have done? I think I would use a stun gun.

This isn't a baby game. It is the law officer's job to ...keep the law, do their job. They can't act like Dr. Phil.

Imagine for a moment that you were in charge of a high school team and you had a big guy who wanted to do it his way. Would you let him, or throw him off the team after thirty run in's with him?

I do NOT believe anyone meant to kill that man.

As a former teacher, you know that is a bad analogy. Any public school teacher or coach who did what that officer did would be immediately fired, probably prosecuted, and surely sued, and that is if the student survived.

The Dr Phil analogy is clever, but in reality, a little transactional psychology might be beneficial in diffusing a situation like this. I, unlike you, did not see a present threat or danger to the FOUR ARMED POLICE OFFICERS prior to the take down. If you can't allow that everyone would have been better off by diffusing the situation, we have no basis for agreement on this issue.

[Challenger]

When a police officer tells you that you are under arrest, it is not a subject for negotiation. You are obligated by law to comply. No compliance(non submission ) to a lawful order, is in itself a violation of law. The officers showed restraint and did not use weapons of any kind that I saw. I did not see unnecessary punches or brutal procedures. Mr Garner was obligated to submit to the lawful arrest action.

I have never heard that officers must submit a subject of an arrest to a psycological or medical examination before taking action.

Mr Garner is dead because of his numerous physical problems and his bad choices. Why would a person with such problems allow himself to be involved in such an altercation? He had to know that it might be life threatening.

[graciegirl]

As a former teacher, you know that is a bad analogy. Any public school teacher or coach who did what that officer did would be immediately fired, probably prosecuted, and surely sued, and that is if the student survived.

The Dr Phil analogy is clever, but in reality, a little transactional psychology might be beneficial in diffusing a situation like this. I, unlike you, did not see a present threat or danger to the FOUR ARMED POLICE OFFICERS prior to the take down. If you can't allow that everyone would have been better off by diffusing the situation, we have no basis for agreement on this issue.


You missed my point. What EXACTLY would YOU have done if you were in the situation as a law enforcement officer with Mr. Garner?

THEN in a completely different situation, what would you have done exactly, if a boy in high school did not take your direction for 30 times? Of course I know you wouldn't have used force, but would you have thrown him off the team?

There comes a time when a man must act to do his job. What would YOU have done?

[TexaninVA]

When a police officer tells you that you are under arrest, it is not a subject for negotiation. You are obligated by law to comply. No compliance(non submission ) to a lawful order, is in itself a violation of law. The officers showed restraint and did not use weapons of any kind that I saw. I did not see unnecessary punches or brutal procedures. Mr Garner was obligated to submit to the lawful arrest action.

I have never heard that officers must submit a subject of an arrest to a psycological or medical examination before taking action.

Mr Garner is dead because of his numerous physical problems and his bad choices. Why would a person with such problems allow himself to be involved in such an altercation? He had to know that it might be life threatening.

Challenger ... I think you have nailed it. Thank you for clarifying what, in some cases, have been emotional and well-intentioned statements that don't really get to the nub of it. Your post did.

[eweissenbach]

You missed my point. What EXACTLY would YOU have done if you were in the situation as a law enforcement officer with Mr. Garner?

THEN in a completely different situation, what would you have done exactly, if a boy in high school did not take your direction for 30 times? Of course I know you wouldn't have used force, but would you have thrown him off the team?

There comes a time when a man must act to do his job. What would YOU have done?

I give - you win.

[eweissenbach]

http://www.peninsulabehavioralhealth.org/upload/docs/Parkwest%20Medical%20Center/WSSN/2013/ParkwestSN_020413_CIT_Peninsula.pdf

[dbussone]

When a police officer tells you that you are under arrest, it is not a subject for negotiation. You are obligated by law to comply. No compliance(non submission ) to a lawful order, is in itself a violation of law. The officers showed restraint and did not use weapons of any kind that I saw. I did not see unnecessary punches or brutal procedures. Mr Garner was obligated to submit to the lawful arrest action.

I have never heard that officers must submit a subject of an arrest to a psycological or medical examination before taking action.

Mr Garner is dead because of his numerous physical problems and his bad choices. Why would a person with such problems allow himself to be involved in such an altercation? He had to know that it might be life threatening.

Appropriately noted. Thanks for stating this situation so succinctly.

[Sandtrap328]

"I did not see ... Brutal procedures"

A choke hold around the neck, having a cop kneel on your chest and another cop kneel on your head are not brutal procedures? The medical examiner report show this is what killed Garner and ruled it a HOMICIDE.

[graciegirl]

"I did not see ... Brutal procedures"

A choke hold around the neck, having a cop kneel on your chest and another cop kneel on your head are not brutal procedures? The medical examiner report show this is what killed Garner and ruled it a HOMICIDE.

They should have just let him go to do whatever he wanted to do????


Did you see that the one police officer came to just under Mr. Garner's chin? Mr. Garner seemed to be a very big man and he didn't want to follow directions at all. If you had been there, what exactly would you have directed people to do? AND which is it? Did he die from "Brutal Procedures" or from Asthma and heart difficulties? I know that one cannot speak if one's airway is occluded and he kept saying, I can't breathe. WHO can we trust and turn to to guide us? Are we to let the scofflaws just do what they want? And only arrest people who won't resist? Perhaps we should only have very LARGE and TALL law enforcement officers who are black? NO, then there would still be cries of brutality.

If you don't want to be sat on and choked, do what you are told to do. He had been arrested 30 times! You would think that changing his ways would have been considered by him. He could have just found a job within the law.......

No one intended to kill him.

Why do some of us always feel sympathy for the law breakers and some of us feel sympathy for the law enforcers?

[gomoho]

Gracie - I don't believe we are feeling sympathy for the lawbreakers - I think we are simply looking for answers. There are bad cops out there and Officer Pantaleo has been involved in two other questionable situations. We are only looking for answers.

[graciegirl]

Gracie - I don't believe we are feeling sympathy for the lawbreakers - I think we are simply looking for answers. There are bad cops out there and Officer Pantaleo has been involved in two other questionable situations. We are only looking for answers.

I know you are right. In fact I knew one myself. He was the arrogant son of a friend in Cincinnati. I am blessed to have personally NOT known a pedophile priest. I have only just met a doctor who I don't respect here in The Villages, doing unncecessary tests in his office. I switched immediately.

I still think that most law enforcement officers are law abiding. That most people are doing the right thing, that most doctors are ethical and that laws are there to protect all of us. If we cannot find good, support good, be on the side of good and promote good, we will be lost.

I think most of the protestors are wrong. More than any other thing about this mess, other than two lives that have been lost that should be still here, is that people cannot get mad over people who are breaking laws. It is wrong to steal small items and to defraud anyone. AND to resist arrest.

[Challenger]

"I did not see ... Brutal procedures"

A choke hold around the neck, having a cop kneel on your chest and another cop kneel on your head are not brutal procedures? The medical examiner report show this is what killed Garner and ruled it a HOMICIDE.

What do you suggest might have been the course of action for the police, when Mr Garner was (illegally) resisting arrest.

If you don't want the sale of single smokes on the street(violating federal tax laws) to be illegal , then contact your political representatives and have the law changed , Don' blame police for doing their job.

Be careful what you wish for, you may get your wish.

[Sandtrap328]

They should have just let him go to do whatever he wanted to do????


Did you see that the one police officer came to just under Mr. Garner's chin? Mr. Garner seemed to be a very big man and he didn't want to follow directions at all. If you had been there, what exactly would you have directed people to do? AND which is it? Did he die from "Brutal Procedures" or from Asthma and heart difficulties?
No one intended to kill him.


Please read the medical examiner report. It states Garner died from having his neck and chest compressed. Even though it was not the intent of the four policemen to kill Garner, they did kill him. It was ruled a homicide. The police should answer for their actions. A Federal grand jury will decide if civil rights were violated.

[Challenger]

Please read the medical examiner report. It states Garner died from having his neck and chest compressed. Even though it was not the intent of the four policemen to kill Garner, they did kill him. It was ruled a homicide. The police should answer for their actions. A Federal grand jury will decide if civil rights were violated.

According to Legal Dictionaries , homocide indicates that a killing was caused by another human. Homocide can be justified, excusable, accidental, etc. The word homocide does not in itself indicate a criminal act.

[Sandtrap328]

According to Legal Dictionaries , homocide indicates that a killing was caused by another human. Homocide can be justified, excusable, accidental, etc. The word homocide does not in itself indicate a criminal act.

First, the word is HOMICIDE. You are correct in saying it does not necessarily indicate a criminal act. That is to be determined at a trial. Since the state grand jury did not do their duty, it will be left up to a Federal grand jury to determine if Garner's civil rights were violated.

[Rags123]

First, the word is HOMICIDE. You are correct in saying it does not necessarily indicate a criminal act. That is to be determined at a trial. Since the state grand jury did not do their duty, it will be left up to a Federal grand jury to determine if Garner's civil rights were violated.

In order to be indicted, there must be a violation of the LAW as our country is a nation of LAW.

What law was violated ?

Not, what police procedure (as is no choke hold) or anything else, but what law was violated ?

That is what is required to get an indictment !!!

Criticizing and panning the grand jury is inexcusable. They did their job. Who in the world is in a position to be so all knowing as to say that a grand jury did not do its job.

[Rags123]

They should have just let him go to do whatever he wanted to do????


Did you see that the one police officer came to just under Mr. Garner's chin? Mr. Garner seemed to be a very big man and he didn't want to follow directions at all. If you had been there, what exactly would you have directed people to do? AND which is it? Did he die from "Brutal Procedures" or from Asthma and heart difficulties? I know that one cannot speak if one's airway is occluded and he kept saying, I can't breathe. WHO can we trust and turn to to guide us? Are we to let the scofflaws just do what they want? And only arrest people who won't resist? Perhaps we should only have very LARGE and TALL law enforcement officers who are black? NO, then there would still be cries of brutality.

If you don't want to be sat on and choked, do what you are told to do. He had been arrested 30 times! You would think that changing his ways would have been considered by him. He could have just found a job within the law.......

No one intended to kill him.

Why do some of us always feel sympathy for the law breakers and some of us feel sympathy for the law enforcers?

This not meant to be political but an attempt to respond to the question...

"Critics often view liberals as deeply authoritarian. Most liberals naturally object to this unflattering claim. Critics notwithstanding, liberals don't relish using the power of government. They don't have a raw preference for forcing everyone live their way. Instead, liberals maintain, they favor using the power of government to advance liberal aims because such policies have good overall consequences."

Liberal Authoritarianism, Bryan Caplan | EconLog | Library of Economics and Liberty (http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2014/07/liberal_authori.html)

The federal government will bring a desired solution.

[Rags123]

My opinion is the cop MAY have violated police procedures. The fact that no choke hold is a police procedure should speak to the fact that the police do internal reviews on all physical restraint used and adjust. Are there bad cops with a chip on their shoulders...yes. I think that is inherent to that job.

All day faced with people who have zero respect for any law will do that to you.

I understand all the concern. What I do not understand is the media attempt to criminalize the police, and do it with such force and righteousness and with such omitting of facts. Demonizing the police in such situations will just cause MORE of what is being yelled we need. There will be MORE displays of smugness and ignoring of police commands and if we want law and order, we must stop the emphasizing of racial divide and perceived wrongs by authority.

There are already in place methods and ways to deal with all the concerns expressed but we, as society, do not feel we can wait to insure our LAWS reflect what we want.....it is more powerful but less self rewarding to work within our existing system to right wrongs. As long as we continue down the media induced hysteria, we will have more and more of these instances, not less. Seems it gives you "face time" and actually getting to work on issues does not.

[graciegirl]

First, the word is HOMICIDE. You are correct in saying it does not necessarily indicate a criminal act. That is to be determined at a trial. Since the state grand jury did not do their duty, it will be left up to a Federal grand jury to determine if Garner's civil rights were violated.


I am not on the same page here. I think the Attorney General is trying to stir the racial pot.

[janmcn]

Please read the medical examiner report. It states Garner died from having his neck and chest compressed. Even though it was not the intent of the four policemen to kill Garner, they did kill him. It was ruled a homicide. The police should answer for their actions. A Federal grand jury will decide if civil rights were violated.


Grand Jury Decides Not To Indict Cop In Eric Garner Chokehold Case « CBS New York (http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2014/12/03/sources-grand-jury-decides-not-to-indict-cop-in-eric-garner-chokehold-case/)

If the policemen involved in this incident did nothing wrong, why were the four police officers (other than Pantaleo) given immunity when they testified before the grand jury? Isn't immunity something given to guilty parties in exchange for their testimony?

All of the policemen involved in this incident are being investigated by the NYPD, not just Pantaleo.

[billethkid]

First, the word is HOMICIDE. You are correct in saying it does not necessarily indicate a criminal act. That is to be determined at a trial. Since the state grand jury did not do their duty, it will be left up to a Federal grand jury to determine if Garner's civil rights were violated.

Because the verdict or decision was not in line with ones beliefs = not doing their duty?!?!?!?

Is there at least a possibility that they have privy to a lot more information and facts in the case than you or the general public have? One hell of a lot more than the rioters, the media and the Sharpton/Holder types!

AND what makes you or anybody else think the federal review will neccessarily disagree with the decision/ruling. Once again setting the basis for measurement = the correct one as long as it agrees with your position.

Not really what the due process of law was formulated on.

[JB in TV]

EXCELLENT response, BTK.

Thanks!

[Sandtrap328]

I am not on the same page here. I think the Attorney General is trying to stir the racial pot.

This is a great example of why TOTV is an excellent forum - as long as ideas are posted with respect to the others - and this thread shows it does happen!

We have opposite viewpoints but everyone remains respectful of others!

[shcisamax]

I saw a photo online yesterday of one of the women protestors in Ferguson holding up a sign saying; (you may not believe this but it's true)

"NO MOTHER SHOULD HAVE TO WORRY THAT EVERY TIME HER SON HOLDS UP A STORE HE WILL BE SHOT"

That pretty much explains the mentality of these people that are protesting. They have been completely brainwashed by some of the special interest groups that when a black kid is shot, it's never justified.

It's really unfortunate that people actually believe someone would write that. THE SIGN WAS PHOTOSHOPPED. It originally said, No mother should have to worry that every time her son goes out he will be shot.

[Rags123]

Grand Jury Decides Not To Indict Cop In Eric Garner Chokehold Case « CBS New York (http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2014/12/03/sources-grand-jury-decides-not-to-indict-cop-in-eric-garner-chokehold-case/)

If the policemen involved in this incident did nothing wrong, why were the four police officers (other than Pantaleo) given immunity when they testified before the grand jury? Isn't immunity something given to guilty parties in exchange for their testimony?

All of the policemen involved in this incident are being investigated by the NYPD, not just Pantaleo.

I just do not understand the hanging of this grand jury. WHAT LAW DIE HE BREAK ???

Am I saying he was not in the wrong....absolutely not. BUT that grand jury that you and others are quickly debasing on here had to decide if a law was broken. I am asking again...WHAT LAW WAS BROKEN !

If you broke police policy he will be dealt with.....if he violated federal law, he will be dealt with, but that is not what this grand jury was looking at,yet on here they are being attacked for not doing their job

[graciegirl]

It's really unfortunate that people actually believe someone would write that. THE SIGN WAS PHOTOSHOPPED. It originally said, No mother should have to worry that every time her son goes out he will be shot.

This is the third time that error has been pointed out on this thread. Dr. Boogie has apologized for his error.

[Challenger]

Grand Jury Decides Not To Indict Cop In Eric Garner Chokehold Case « CBS New York (http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2014/12/03/sources-grand-jury-decides-not-to-indict-cop-in-eric-garner-chokehold-case/)

If the policemen involved in this incident did nothing wrong, why were the four police officers (other than Pantaleo) given immunity when they testified before the grand jury? Isn't immunity something given to guilty parties in exchange for their testimony?

All of the policemen involved in this incident are being investigated by the NYPD, not just Pantaleo.

Not necessarily so. Immunity assures that the recipient will not be prosecuted. Many are prosecuted for crimes that they don't commit. Their lives are disrupted with severe consequences and often ruined .
An analogy would be a civil settlement even if not responsible for the agreeved activity , to prevent a long expensive trial and the possibility a eroneous decision.

[shcisamax]

My deepest apologies, Gracie. I am really sorry I didn't read the entire 18 pages of comments before I commented. My bad.

[graciegirl]

My deepest apologies, Gracie. I am really sorry I didn't read the entire 18 pages of comments before I commented. My bad.

I didn't mean it as harshly as it sounded and I wasn't trying to put YOU down. But it is the third time it has been brought up. Boogie was wrong and admitted he was wrong. He is usually not wrong.

The whole climate of this discussion is hitting us all deeply. My home was my grandparents home. My mother died at my birth. My grandfather was a police officer. A big 6'4" guy, a veteran of 37 years on the force. He never used his gun but I am pretty sure he must have used his billy club in Columbus, Ohio. Not too much violent crime but a lot of drinking in those days.Two of my fathers brothers were police officers. They were not only officers, but gentle men to me and my cousins.

I am ALWAYS gonna sway to the side of authority and be defensive of police officers. I know that not all people were like my family, nor all times were like my childhood, but if we lose respect for the law and law enforcement, we are pretty well done.

[pivo]

Gracie; back then he never had to shoot anyone, because back then people had respect for the law, there were no agitators to twist the minds of young youths like today. today if a young man does a crime he has people brainwashing him and supporting him , reason looking for a big settlement.

[Sandtrap328]

Gracie; back then he never had to shoot anyone, because back then people had respect for the law, there were no agitators to twist the minds of young youths like today. today if a young man does a crime he has people brainwashing him and supporting him , reason looking for a big settlement.

Those were also the days before civil rights and Miranda readings. It was routine for some police to beat confessions out of suspects even though they were innocent. Personally, I think we are a lot better off now.

[Rags123]

Those were also the days before civil rights and Miranda readings. It was routine for some police to beat confessions out of suspects even though they were innocent. Personally, I think we are a lot better off now.

I hope in the near future that the movement will become one of ABIDING BY THE LAW !! While much of what you think is better, is in fact better, the movement to make things better has lost contact with the actual real law. I pray that someday that balance will be gained. We are now bending over backwards to defend law breakers.

[pivo]

Sandtrap;; As for criminals they are a lot better off today.
But for police they are not their hands are tied more and more every year, so the way things are going , pretty soon if you loot or burglary and it don't exceed a thousand dollars you can't hold them,

[Sandtrap328]

Sandtrap;; As for criminals they are a lot better off today.
But for police they are not their hands are tied more and more every year, so the way things are going , pretty soon if you loot or burglary and it don't exceed a thousand dollars you can't hold them,

Would you rather have a suspect (and let us just say the suspect is your grandchild) guaranteed their civil rights with a Miranda warning or rather see a policeman take him/her into the back room and extract a confession by beating with a rubber hose until he confessed?

[Rags123]

Would you rather have a suspect guaranteed his civil rights with a Miranda warning or rather see a policeman take a suspect into the back room and extract a confession by beating him with a rubber hose until he confessed?

How in the world did you make this gigantic leap from police having their hands tied to "a policeman take a suspect into the back room and extract a confession by beating him with a rubber hose until he confessed?"

I cannot speak for another, but seems to me you took great liberties here.

[Sandtrap328]

How in the world did you make this gigantic leap from police having their hands tied to "a policeman take a suspect into the back room and extract a confession by beating him with a rubber hose until he confessed?"

I cannot speak for another, but seems to me you took great liberties here.

Sad, but true, these things did happen before Miranda.

[Rags123]

Sad, but true, these things did happen before Miranda.

I know they did, but you sort of put some strong words in PIVO' s mouth and implied something I do not think was intended by his/her post...not even close,

Maybe just me....just seemed very unfair.