Do You Suppose Protesters Have Considered Or Care Regarding The Following?

[rubicon]

The circumstances surrounding the NYC police actions to arrest Eric Garner include the following:

1. Eric Garner (EG) was clearly resisting arrest and if he had not then force would have not been necessary.

2. EG had demonstrated his resistance by swatting away the arms of police and telling them not to touch him.

3. It was unlikely that the police would have concluded that because EG did not want to be arrested that they should comply.

4. EG had a history of 30 arrests since 1980 including assault and grand
larceny charges. so this was not his first rodeo

5. He was on bail for selling illegal cigarettes, driving without license, marijuana possession and false impersonation


6. EG was 6'3" weighed 350 suffered from heart disease, severe asthma, diabetes, obesity and sleep apnea.

7. EG did not die at the scene but an hour later from cardiac arrest

8. It is claimed that the choke hold was used 1128 times since 2009 as reported by the civilian Complaint Board and a take down techniques taught at the police academy

9. the grand jury heard this case from Sept 29 until its decision Dec 3

10. The grand jury had 23 members 9 of whom were non-white

11. To charge the police officer with being criminally negligent the grand jury would have had to determine the police officer knew there was a "substantial risk"

12. Orta who shot the video tape was indicted on weapons charges

Newsmax Dec 6

[Advogado]

The circumstances surrounding the NYC police actions to arrest Eric Garner include the following:

1. Eric Garner (EG) was clearly resisting arrest and if he had not then force would have not been necessary.

2. EG had demonstrated his resistance by swatting away the arms of police and telling them not to touch him.

3. It was unlikely that the police would have concluded that because EG did not want to be arrested that they should comply.

4. EG had a history of 30 arrests since 1980 including assault and grand
larceny charges. so this was not his first rodeo

5. He was on bail for selling illegal cigarettes, driving without license, marijuana possession and false impersonation


6. EG was 6'3" weighed 350 suffered from heart disease, severe asthma, diabetes, obesity and sleep apnea.

7. EG did not die at the scene but an hour later from cardiac arrest

8. It is claimed that the choke hold was used 1128 times since 2009 as reported by the civilian Complaint Board and a take down techniques taught at the police academy

9. the grand jury heard this case from Sept 29 until its decision Dec 3

10. The grand jury had 23 members 9 of whom were non-white

11. To charge the police officer with being criminally negligent the grand jury would have had to determine the police officer knew there was a "substantial risk"

12. Orta who shot the video tape was indicted on weapons charges

Newsmax Dec 6
To answer your question: No.

[manaboutown]

They really do not want to confront and/or consider the facts, lest they have to rationally analyze, think and become confused. They just want to vent their feelings, many violently and criminally, based on what they are relentlessly told and sold, time and time again, by their "leaders" and the propaganda machine known as the mainstream media.

[MikeV]

Protesters are being used by some to further their agenda. I don't believe they have a clue as to what the facts are in NYC or Ferguson.

[justjim]

No, what happen was tragic but not a criminal offense.

[karostay]

Protesters are being used by some to further their agenda. I don't believe they have a clue as to what the facts are in NYC or Ferguson.
They should show their solidarity by burning all their food stamps and renounce any government hand outs

[Rags123]

Protesters are being used by some to further their agenda. I don't believe they have a clue as to what the facts are in NYC or Ferguson.

You nailed it.

There IS an agenda to insure race is an ongoing issue. These people on this board, and the folks calling for heads to roll because of no indictment, have got to know...please tell me that an American citizen knows.....grand jury looks to determine IF a crime was committed...nothing else.

The whipping everyone into a frenzy based on no indictment and race is a terrible con game played to keep alive the control that some exhibit over certain people. It is to their advantage if these people are feeling like they are picked on because of their skin color and whatever perpetuates that is what will be done.

Police make mistakes...serious mistakes. Most people realize the law needs to be adjusted or a police hearing needs to happen. That will happen in both these cases, but there must be marches to insure that blacks feel like second class citizens..that is what allows the control.

[graciegirl]

I am very afraid that unless our president does something emphatic, we are heading for a race war. When we stopped for food or comfort on our trip up and back to Ohio last week, I noticed a distinct coldness from the black people I encountered. No returned smiles. I feel like a bad atmosphere is building. I know I have no respect for the folks who looted and burned in their own neighborhood. How can this be made better? Hatred breeds hatred.

BUT... people cannot be allowed to break laws because we don't want to hurt their feelings.

[Rags123]

I am very afraid that unless our president does something emphatic, we are heading for a race war. When we stopped for food or comfort on our trip up and back to Ohio last week, I noticed a distinct coldness from the black people I encountered. No returned smiles. I feel like a bad atmosphere is building. I know I have no respect for the folks who looted and burned in their own neighborhood. How can this be made better? Hatred breeds hatred.

BUT... people cannot be allowed to break laws because we don't want to hurt their feelings.

You would think that after being arrested 30 times, this man would know the drill when a policeman says you are under arrest. Well, he did know the drill but chose not to conform..white or black, the drill is the same.

The other thread showed concern for police. I will say without any doubt, that because of the "leadership" that is driving this. There will be more and more unless we allow the law simply to vanish. A man, especially black, is now empowered to challenge his arrest, and thus if the police are doing their job in protecting society, you can count on more incidents.

Your fear of a race war is real. Even posters on here are whipped up hoping for "action". Nobody in Washington or otherwise is calling on people to follow the law. The leader is a criminal, who used to be an attorney until he was bounced, who has a "show" on TV that very few watch and a history..long one, of not only not paying taxes, but totally making things up to cause problems.

[gomoho]

Having watched this video many, many times I have to disagree with the grand jury decision on this one. My concern is the use of excessive force and believe a trial would have gone a long way towards answering questions.
Rubicon - if you are going to mention EG's past and that of the fellow that video taped the incident you were remiss in not also reporting the officer in question has been investigated in the past. One case was settled out of court, the other is pending. I also believe the medical examiner said he died from asphyxiation not a heart attack.

It is unfortunate this case has been turned into a racial issue rather than excessive force, but certainly understandable if you look at what has happened recently - Michael Brown, the 12 year old in the Cleveland playground and the young man in NYC coming down the stairs of his building with his family. All black - all killed by police. I don't know the answer but am praying for peace and understanding and for the race baiters mouths to be silenced with duct tape.

[graciegirl]

Having watched this video many, many times I have to disagree with the grand jury decision on this one. My concern is the use of excessive force and believe a trial would have gone a long way towards answering questions.
Rubicon - if you are going to mention EG's past and that of the fellow that video taped the incident you were remiss in not also reporting the officer in question has been investigated in the past. One case was settled out of court, the other is pending. I also believe the medical examiner said he died from asphyxiation not a heart attack.

It is unfortunate this case has been turned into a racial issue rather than excessive force, but certainly understandable if you look at what has happened recently - Michael Brown, the 12 year old in the Cleveland playground and the young man in NYC coming down the stairs of his building with his family. All black - all killed by police. I don't know the answer but am praying for peace and understanding and for the race baiters mouths to be silenced with duct tape.


I respect your opinions, Gomoho.

BUT... I know that you cannot speak if your airway is blocked. I don't know what I would do, if I was a police officer and a man was saying he was not wanting to be arrested and he was bigger and taller than me.

You can't just not arrest him. I do not think that anyone intended to kill the man. I believe this with all of my heart. I think any person resisting arrest who has a record would be a real challenge. You aren't thinking, this poor guy, he is just scared. You know HE knows the drill.

I know he would probably be alive today if he put his hands behind his back and then had an attack of whatever and they could give him medical treatment, if that is what happened..

I am very upset to hear black celebrities say that they teach their kids to call them if they are arrested and to not go easily.

My grandchildren, siblings, were driving through Cincinnati when they were teens and the police pulled them over and pulled guns on them. They had sent out whatever you call it (an all points bulletin?) to arrest someone dangerous and had incorrectly changed one number of the license number on the bulletin, which made the number our granddaughters license number., My grandson was looking in the glove box for the registration and they pulled him out and flung him against the car. When they showed them their drivers license and school I.D. the police realized right away they has made a mistake. The told the children's parents to have the license plate changed and they did the next day.

I know they thought he was looking for a gun in the glovebox.

It was a good and scary lesson for them to learn. One we all learned. My son in law was annoyed since he thought it was their mistake that they should have paid to have the license changed, but ....well...you just do what you have to do.

[gomoho]

Gracie - I hear you and fully agree if he had followed the officer's rules none of this would have happened. I believe when he was saying "I can't breathe" he was trying to communicate his distress and unfortunately died as a result of that distress. It's simply awful to watch that tape and see a man die because police officers were smashing him in the ground. My concern is that particular officer also has a history and why they weren't able to talk him down. He wasn't getting aggressive or threatening - he didn't want to be touched and if calmer minds had prevailed someone could have reminded him he knows the drill and this is the way it has to go. Would he have complied??? I don't know, but I would have like to at least have seen an attempt to de-escalate the situation.

[shcisamax]

xxx

[graciegirl]

Hmmmn. My opinion is Ferguson was justified. I think Eric Garner was not. He was selling cigarettes. Not what I would call a violent crime. He has been arrested 30 times for cigarettes. Ridiculous. Do you have anything else that might be more pressing in the world of crime besides arresting someone for selling cigarettes? Are you kidding me? Did you really need to have five guys tackling him and, I don't care how many times you deny it, it was a choke hold. As for the 12 year old boy in Cleveland, sheesh, he should still be alive today without a doubt.

As far as the way police handle themselves, I no longer feel I trust them because I personally know too many stories of heavy handedness and excessive force.

One of my neighbors recently mentioned that there have been lots of returning vets with PTSD enlisting in police force. If that is true, that may explain the barrage of overly forceful behavior. But police are not as I remember them growing up for sure.


Then just forget about laws because the small ones are useless anyhow?????

I don't see it that way. AND I would trust a black officer or an Asian officer or a retired vet or a returning vet in exactly the same way. I don't think there is now more violent police officers, I think there are now more violent perps. If they wanted to arrest me I would not be mad at THEM. I would think I had done something awfully wrong.

I have NOT lost respect for law enforcement officers and hope I never live to see the time I do.

[manaboutown]

Hmmmn. My opinion is Ferguson was justified. I think Eric Garner was not. He was selling cigarettes. Not what I would call a violent crime. He has been arrested 30 times for cigarettes. Ridiculous. Do you have anything else that might be more pressing in the world of crime besides arresting someone for selling cigarettes? Are you kidding me? Did you really need to have five guys tackling him and, I don't care how many times you deny it, it was a choke hold. As for the 12 year old boy in Cleveland, sheesh, he should still be alive today without a doubt.

As far as the way police handle themselves, I no longer feel I trust them because I personally know too many stories of heavy handedness and excessive force.

As for the protests, I can't stand what happened in Ferguson. What a disgrace. The protests in NYC, at least what I have seen, were respectful and peaceful and I am all for that.

One of my neighbors recently mentioned that there have been lots of returning vets with PTSD enlisting in police force. If that is true, that may explain the barrage of overly forceful behavior. But police are not as I remember them growing up for sure.

Actually Garner had committed various crimes, including assault.

He did not die at the scene from asphyxiation but later, possibly from cardiac arrest.

[shcisamax]

xxx

[janmcn]

Claims against the NYPD cost the city $212 million in 2014 alone | MSNBC (http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/claims-against-the-nypd-cost-the-city-millions-year)


Claims against the NYPD have cost the city of New York $212 million in 2014 alone. That money would pay some teacher's salaries. This article mentions the claims that were lodged against Officer Daniel Pantaleo. So much for protect and serve.

[golf2140]

Guess what, don't do a crime and all would be fine.

[golf2140]

Claims against the NYPD cost the city $212 million in 2014 alone | MSNBC (http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/claims-against-the-nypd-cost-the-city-millions-year)


Claims against the NYPD have cost the city of New York $212 million in 2014 alone. That money would pay a lot of teacher's salaries. This article mentions the claims that were lodged against Officer Daniel Pantaleo.

Teachers in Pa get close to $100,000.00 for 182 days. Give me a break

[janmcn]

Teachers in Pa get close to $100,000.00 for 182 days. Give me a break

Changed my post from a lot to some...happy?

[JB in TV]

... I just think the culture of policing has changed to be overly aggressive.

And is it just possible that the culture of the "perps" has also become more aggressive as well, requiring an equal or greater force from the police?? They ARE referred to as the Police "force".

In a way, it is similar to the death penalty. NO, I don't intend for this to become a discussion on that... However, I think that most of us would agree that the death penalty is designed as a deterrent...someone committing a crime that carries a possible death penalty might think twice ... If someone resisting arrest knows that they WILL experience aggressive force from the Police, maybe they would think twice about resisting arrest.

Let’s see, resist arrest and maybe have "force" used against me (with possible death as a result), or allow them to arrest me peacefully, and a possible acquittal at a trial? Hmmm.


Perhaps I am wrong, but I like the feeling that the Police should be "respected", and I use that word being close to "feared" by someone committing a crime.

[shcisamax]

xxx

[graciegirl]

But where is the reasonable reaction? I agree that if there is an aggressive criminal, then be aggressive. Did you read in my post earlier where I was stopped for a seatbelt check on my way to school with my children and when I got out of my car because the dogs were barking, I was yelled at to get in and "put my hands where he could see them." Does that sound reasonable? Does that sound excessively aggressive under the circumstances? We cannot have police treating minor offenses as if they were bank robberies. They must be able to discern and discriminate or next we will have people going around roundabouts at 21 mph thrown on the ground in a choke hold.

Did you read where they threw my grandson up against the car because he was looking for the registration in the glove box?

They had a right to do that although he was innocent. We think it was right. How did they KNOW he was innocent? They had what they thought was the license number of a terrible person. They didn't know it was the wrong one.

He was scared. He got over it. He is an independent law abiding person who is heading in the right direction. We didn't act like the police were awful. He doesn't think the police are awful.

It is just how we look at things. We can't change ourselves at this age...much. We can only TRY to understand the other's point of view.

[shcisamax]

I understand they made a mistake with the license plate. They therefore reacted wrongly but for the right reason. But I am not talking about believing there is imminent danger and reacting accordingly.

I think we will need to agree to disagree on this Gracie.

[JB in TV]

But where is the reasonable reaction? I agree that if there is an aggressive criminal, then be aggressive. Did you read in my post earlier where I was stopped for a seatbelt check on my way to school with my children and when I got out of my car because the dogs were barking, I was yelled at to get in and "put my hands where he could see them." ....

Yes I read it. Did you consider asking the officer if you could get out of the car to allow the dogs to calm down, or to stop their barking. Do you think the officer may have been concerned about his or her safety because of the barking, possible agressive dogs? I'm sure this was a terrifying experience for you, but perhaps that is my point. There is not much difference beteween the words respect and fear.
Like I said, I believe that we need respect the police, and that includes communicating with them. They had NO IDEA what your intentions were when you got out of the car.

[shcisamax]

xxx

[gerryann]

Oh my God...I am a mom with her kids in the car in line with 450 other moms dropping their kids at school in a tiny town in Ct. They were pulling everyone over and when I got out, he was pulling over the next car. Yes, I should not have gotten out of the car until I asked but that is not the point. But to actually tell me to put my hands on the steering wheel where he can see them is so ridiculous. If you cannot see that that is ridiculous, then I guess it is good you aren't a policeman.

The officer was absolutely correct in telling you to put your hands in plain view on the steering wheel.

[shcisamax]

If it is one thing I have learned, it is you don't change people's opinions in forums. I don't know why I even bothered. I should know better. Night.

[Beechie]

xxx

I don't think their reaction was ridiculous at all. Did all the other moms have to put their hands on their steering wheel? I'll bet only the one that chose to get out of their vehicle at a check stop. Do you think the police knew you were getting out to calm your dogs? If you knew it was wrong to get out of your vehicle, why did you?

[dillywho]

For what it's worth, I think the protests are more about publicity than true concern for anyone, of any color. Let the media stop focusing on them and see how soon it all comes to a screeching halt. Remember when people were continually jumping the fence and disrupting baseball games on pretty much a daily basis? They quit showing or evening mentioning them and it stopped.

As for putting your hands on the steering wheel, that is absolutely what anyone is supposed to do when stopped. You then WAIT for instruction from the officer(s). This lets them know that you do not plan to be a threat to them. That is one of the first things you are taught when you take the classes in order to obtain a Concealed Weapon Permit. Not only do you have to show your DL but also your Permit (if you have a weapon with you).

[gerryann]

For what it's worth, I think the protests are more about publicity than true concern for anyone, of any color. Let the media stop focusing on them and see how soon it all comes to a screeching halt. Remember when people were continually jumping the fence and disrupting baseball games on pretty much a daily basis? They quit showing or evening mentioning them and it stopped.
I
You are so correct....get the media to stop. Unfortunately, they're like vulchers and will never stop as long as they feel there is a story. They create most of it by being there.

[onslowe]

In answer to Rubicon's question, no.

Mike V's post is similar to my opinion.

The media are nauseating in their effort to create issues. Take the time to write to their sponsors and tell them you view them as wholly complicit in the work of the media to bring about serious emotional problems (without facts) among our populace. And you will refrain from buying their product and encourage all your friends and neighbors to do the same.

That's how the tedious 'community leaders' cow the sponsors.

[rubicon]

Claims against the NYPD cost the city $212 million in 2014 alone | MSNBC (http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/claims-against-the-nypd-cost-the-city-millions-year)


Claims against the NYPD have cost the city of New York $212 million in 2014 alone. That money would pay some teacher's salaries. This article mentions the claims that were lodged against Officer Daniel Pantaleo. So much for protect and serve.

janmcn: I managed many a lawsuit in behalf of police officers and teachers because the company I worked for a company that wrote several schools and muncipalities .

First can civilians really understand what an officer has to deal with. They are suppose to protect the public under a civil code yet the criminals they deal with have no such inclination or obligation. They use that to their advantage by making false accusations to impunity They are further assisted by unethical attorneys looking for a big payout and make outrageous claims holding an officer to standards that no one could meet on this earth. Attorneys best method is to force muncipalities or schools to pay high defense costs. Often it becomes clear that simply paying the claim and not admitting to liability is the most feasible economic outcome. so don't let the big dollar numbers sway you into believing that all those allegations agains the police were right. Further you have civilians judging officers who have little understanding of their world

People need to ask themselves how does one take down a giant? The race baiters are playing the public like a fiddle and the media is only to willing to oblige because it sells papers also ask why didn't the Goldmans and Browns push people into the streets when OJ who obviously was guilty was let free because the mostly black jury wanted him free and rode stampede on the remaining jurors..but they didn't they went the rule of law way

[gomoho]

Rubicon - my concern is "did it have to result in a take down"? I agree Gardner resisted arrest and should have done what the officer said. He knew the drill and I'm sure they knew him so I'm surprised they couldn't talk him down. And why were there so many officers on a call about selling loose cigs? These are some of the questions I and I'm sure many others are asking. Perhaps if the judge had allowed for release of the grand jury trial some of these questions would be answered.

[billethkid]

forget the protestors they are a minority count in the overall scheme that just happens to capture the fancy of the media and further it's agenda.

If anybody really wants to know how the local folks feel....get away from the protest site and knock on doors and ask the local citizenry how they feel about what is going on.

The example of the media in Orlando focused on the 20 people walking around in an intersection with their hands up....the media presented it as and here is the reaction here in Orlando.....when IT IS NOT!!!! It is the 20 people out of the hundreds of thousands that live there.

Remember the media wants us all to look at the world through the straw they presnt. And when viewing the side of an elephant through a straw, the media will immediately enlist the thinking of how gray the world is!!!!!!

The first doubt in the equation is the media's bias!!

[rp001]

I am very afraid that unless our president does something emphatic, we are heading for a race war. When we stopped for food or comfort on our trip up and back to Ohio last week, I noticed a distinct coldness from the black people I encountered. No returned smiles. I feel like a bad atmosphere is building. I know I have no respect for the folks who looted and burned in their own neighborhood. How can this be made better? Hatred breeds hatred.

BUT... people cannot be allowed to break laws because we don't want to hurt their feelings.

I would ask myself why? What really has changed? It's the "new political climate" that has turned all minorities off. We are treating them different and they are repaying in kind!