Are all children capable of succeeding in college?

[graciegirl]

Can all children who are in "regular" classes succeed in college?

Is it shameful not to? Why or why not?

[lafoto]

"higher education" is not for everyone.

"Shame" for not being college material? No Way!
I think that the vast majority of people would say
that their success in life was obtained by the choices
that they made along life's road.

[mulligan]

IMHO, Ms. G, probably 95% of students, if they made an honest effort, could find a way to succeed in college ( to at least the Associates level) That being said, I believe that a very large percentage could find greater success if they attended a technical school, or entered an apprenticeship program. There are far too few young people learning trades, and us old folks are bailing out at an ever increasing rate.

[justjim]

There are many who don't do well in High School but are successful at the college level. Some, like myself, are called "late bloomers".

When given the opportunity, some kids that you think aren't college material do quite well and many times are among the most successful graduates. I have personally observed this.

Don't rule out anybody until after they are given the opportunity.

[DonH57]

My grades for the all college courses I took were always higher than my middle and high school grades. I think in middle and high school I didn't care and thought I already knew everything.

[sunnyatlast]

IMHO, Ms. G, probably 95% of students, if they made an honest effort, could find a way to succeed in college ( to at least the Associates level) That being said, I believe that a very large percentage could find greater success if they attended a technical school, or entered an apprenticeship program. There are far too few young people learning trades, and us old folks are bailing out at an ever increasing rate.

This is so true.

The vast majority could succeed……if they wanted to. Too many students lose motivation about "school" in general in middle school and high school, because the emphasis from the federal and state level and teacher education/credentialing programs aim only at a liberal-arts core, college-prep curriculum, and they make "vocational-technical" education a dirty word. They speak the very words "vocational-technical" and "trades" with utter disdain, gagging and spitting.

And few on the academia side will admit that the free-flowing college financial aid and especially the abundance of student LOANS adds to the allure and "prestige" the state and federal Executive, Legislative and Judicial politicians give themselves.

But some of the happiest and financially secure people we know here in The Villages and beyond are current or former tradesmen. Their jobs/careers might seem "boring" or "not cerebral enough" for the politicians groomed and coddled in the ivory tower of academia, but it shows just how bone-headed they are to ignore the fact that without machinists, draftsmen, administrative assistants-secretaries, policemen, firemen, web designers-graphic artists, hairdressers, meat cutters, dental assistants, dental-lab technicians, x-ray technicians, welders, etc. etc. etc…….this country would be like Haiti.

Personally, I believe high school can and should encourage BOTH some vocational-technical education and college-prep, as I had, and went on to attain a bachelor's degree in education which I loved. But when I could not get jobs when we moved with my husband's education and training in his profession, I fully relied on my office-clerical skills to work for food and rent--literally--in the early years, and it was there that I got in on the ground floor of personal computer software application and training and later, teaching. I had both v-technical and college prep HS curricula, and never even knew there were divisions in those sectors in other states into which we moved.

No 7th-, 8th-, or 9th-grader should be tracked only into vocational-technical or only into college prep at that age, with no coursework experience in the other type, and especially with no benchmark experience in either track.

Here is an excellent article on the subject:

Some college graduates turn to tech school for job training (http://www.jsonline.com/news/education/some-college-graduates-turn-to-tech-school-for-job-training-055hg7u-155158985.html)

.

[justjim]

It's only shameful when a child is not given the opportunity to reach their potential. That doesn't always mean a college education---sometimes it does. Reaching your potential may mean having the opportunity to be an automotive mechanic, electrician, nurse, artist, barber, house teck, teacher, truck driver, engineer or scientist. Enough to get my point.

[Bizdoc]

During the accreditation renewal meetings at the third university where I was on the faculty, a big discussion ensued about measuring "student success". The administrator types and a large number of the faculty wanted to use percentage of students who graduated as the measure. I (and a number of other faculty members) tried to convince our colleagues that success may include (1) the realization that college is now the solution for them, (2) a different college may better meet their needs, (3) they may not be ready for college *right now* and several other outcomes.

As a society, we have become obsessed with having people complete college, even when it is the totally wrong answer for some. We need to stop insisting that people go to college and then stigmatizing them when they determine it is the wrong place for them to be.

[kevmo]

A recent study, discussed this past weekend on Fareed Zakaria show, has shown that for the first time, students with below average college entrance exam scores who come from higher income families have a higher graduation rate than students with above average exam scores who come from lower income families. There are many factors that figure into whether students graduate, but our future is dependent on ensuring the best and brightest get the education needed to lead us to a better world.

[tomwed]

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
I didn't answer the question. I hate when I do that.

[cavalier65]

It has been said that in 40 years the average Villages resident will have tattoos and listen to hip-hop. Given the out-of-control behavior of several cultures within the U.S. and the focus of colleges on equal outcomes, does anyone doubt this? :ohdear:

[KayakerNC]

It has been said that in 40 years the average Villages resident will have tattoos and listen to hip-hop. Given the out-of-control behavior of several cultures within the U.S. and the focus of colleges on equal outcomes, does anyone doubt this? :ohdear:

And, back when dinosaurs roamed the earth, rock and roll was the coming evil in our culture.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gQV15DPvyE

[CFrance]

Can all children who are in "regular" classes succeed in college?

Is it shameful not to? Why or why not?
I think any student who can succeed in regular classes can also succeed in college. But to me, the more important factor is enabling each student to discover what it is that he/she really is interested in doing. Maybe it wouldn't involve going to college; maybe it would.

But if they're not studying something interesting to them, their chances of success are less. My opinion. I have no facts to back up that opinion. But I do have anecdotal experiences.

[2BNTV]

Abby Normal, flunked out of college. :D

Seriously. I think everyone can succeed in college if they apply themselves. The question becomes, "did the student pick a field of endeavor that will have jobs, when they graduate"? IMHO

So may students have graduated college and they can't get a job in what they were trained for and wanted. That is assuming, the didn't take basket weaving type courses? They jobs are filled by athletes. :smiley:

[JerryLBell]

There does seem to be a general idea that college is the ONLY way to a successful life. I don't know if that's so true anymore, particularly with the insanely spiraling costs of a university education. It may help you get the job you want but you may be greatly burdened by college debt for too many years for it to have nearly the cost/benefit ratio it once did.

Also, a traditional college education isn't the only type of continuing education that can create careers. There are a lot of trade schools where people can go to learn skills for careers that may be less glamorous but are vital to the economy. I mean, my plumber makes a decent living and certainly doesn't have a Masters in Plumbology but he didn't come out of high school knowing everything a plumber needs to know to make a living. He went to a trade school and learned not only plumbing-specific skills but some basic business management skills that helped him start and run a successful business.

Yes, we need to churn out more scientists, engineers, doctors, educators and the like. But we still need good carpenters, plumbers, electricians, car mechanics, welders, hair dressers and other skilled professionals and we should be promoting the educational paths to those types of careers as well.

[dewilson58]

I know I sound like a broken record but in 1970 NJ state college tuition was $350 a year and minimum wage was $1.60, so why not go to college. What did you have to loose? I discovered I wanted to teach. Back then, hardly anyone had their masters.

Today a masters is quite common and for some careers, it's entry level. We use to tell the kids [when I was a teacher] "to get a good job, get a good education". We forgot to tell them "just don't get conned into borrowing a hundred thousand dollars to do it".

I taught shop. They are dropping shop programs all over the country. Where do you think those trades people got their start? Not everyone's dad took them under their wing and taught them how to fix things and build things like mine did.


Answering the OP question............I say, "no".

Regarding your comment on Masters Degrees..............I think they are becoming less and less common...........students are finding out employers are seeing less value in a Masters Degree. (just my exposure and experience)

[sunnyatlast]

It's only shameful when a child is not given the opportunity to reach their potential. That doesn't always mean a college education---sometimes it does. Reaching your potential may mean having the opportunity to be an automotive mechanic, electrician, nurse, artist, barber, house teck, teacher, truck driver, engineer or scientist. Enough to get my point.

Consider how many vital trades like automotive/truck mechanic, computer technology, electronics, medics, nursing assistants, electrical, plumbing, engineering assistants, and building trades are learned in the U.S. Armed Forces.

Then consider the condescension and utter disdain many in academia, Hollywood, and Washington have for our military……a bigger blow and insult to trades and vocational-technical education.

[rjm1cc]

Yes, most high school students should be able to succeed in college. But for some they maybe happier and more successful if they learn a trade. The opportunity to go either way should be there.

Unfortunately from talking to College professors a large number of students do not have a good educational foundation so that detracts from all college students when you have to teach at a lower level than you should be teaching.

[cavalier65]

Those who have no standards never understand what they mean. Exactly the case here.

[cavalier65]

EXactly.

[applesoffh]

Colleges are filled with people who have no idea what they want to do with their lives; yet, there are young people who want to work on cars, be electricians, etc., and they do not get the vocational help they need. Vocational High Schools have, for the most part, gone the way of black & white movies. There is a real need for these schools to exist, and teach future generations trades and skills that are, and will continue to be, needed. We have enough young people graduating with useless degrees. Yes, they spent 4 or 5 years to get them, but most have no marketable skills. They also think that starting salaries are $40,000 - $50,000 per year and are shocked to learn differently. Yes, some kids graduate with good jobs waiting for them. Most graduate with loan payments waiting for them.

[zonerboy]

The simple answer to the OP's question is No.
But that doesn't stop them from enrolling anyway. And accumulating tens of thousands of dollars of student loans in pursuit of degrees in mostly useless academic areas,
A college degree is not some sort of universal key to financial success.We are selling too many kids down the river who would be far better off attending technical or vocational schools.

[FlamingoFlo]

I think any student who can succeed in regular classes can also succeed in college. But to me, the more important factor is enabling each student to discover what it is that he/she really is interested in doing. Maybe it wouldn't involve going to college; maybe it would.

But if they're not studying something interesting to them, their chances of success are less. My opinion. I have no facts to back up that opinion. But I do have anecdotal experiences.

This was certainly true for me. I hated school and made it through two years of college courses but no degree. I got a job as a teller in a bank and fell in love with the work. The bank sent me to classes and within five years I was a manager. Retired as a VP. Loved most every minute. I started college having no idea what I wanted to do with my life.

[fred53]

Can all children who are in "regular" classes succeed in college?

Is it shameful not to? Why or why not?

why would it be shameful?...while the constitution may say "all men are created equal"...and women...it is the way of nature that some children just are not smart enough to pass college level courses...it doesn't make it any less possible to succeed if they have the drive, but again not all children are born with a drive strong enough to overcome difficulties into which they are born.

Then there are those children who just have no interest in higher education...there are other ways to measure success in life other than the bank account...unfortunately those qualities aren't as freely suggested as they once were....ie: hard work...honest labor...many aren't taught to dress for success or seek out ways to learn that schools can not offer...

[tedquick]

Can all children who are in "regular" classes succeed in college?

Is it shameful not to? Why or why not?

No, as not all in school have the intellect and/or desire to compete at the college level.

[blueash]

The purpose of a college education is NOT to get a job, it is to learn critical thinking, how to evaluate material, how to study and become skilled at ongoing education, to broaden your vistas and to explore the great and the forgotten ideas that have shaped our world. These are abilities that will be of benefit to anyone who gains them, whether in a specific field or for a person who never seeks out of home employment. In the best situations a higher education should be both broad and in some area deep. If you only think an education should be given to learn for a job, there is no reason to go to high school either. Most people didn't before the 1940's.

[sunnyatlast]

The purpose of a college education is NOT to get a job, it is to learn critical thinking, how to evaluate material, how to study and become skilled at ongoing education, to broaden your vistas and to explore the great and the forgotten ideas that have shaped our world. These are abilities that will be of benefit to anyone who gains them, whether in a specific field or for a person who never seeks out of home employment. In the best situations a higher education should be both broad and in some area deep. If you only think an education should be given to learn for a job, there is no reason to go to high school either. Most people didn't before the 1940's.

I agree about the value of the liberal arts core curriculum in baccalaureate degree programs, teaching people how to learn about the Big Picture, but many young people don't have the money or interest in this coursework when they could do as the bank teller above and be happy working their way up in a "job" they enjoy and that gives them time off on weekends, holidays etc. to be with their growing family.

And yes, I do think "education should be given to learn a [specific] job", as in nursing, physician assistant, paralegal, engineer, lawyer and physician. While they are probably getting baccalaureate degrees in the process, once they become heavily invested in these "jobs" and the student debt it takes to get there, I don't think many take the plunge into a lower-paying job in which they use their liberal arts knowledge to explore broader horizons and the forgotten ideas that shaped our world.

They have to repay their own educational debts and save for that of their children who will hopefully aim toward "getting a JOB".

[Nightengale212]

I think all children if they have the interest can succeed in higher education, but some require different preparatory paths beyond high school giving them a better foundation to achieve the educational goals they desire. Joining the military can be one of those preparatory paths.

My hairdresser's husband is a stellar example of one of those individuals who achieved great success with the military being his foundation. He enlisted in the Navy right out of high school in 1964 and obtained his BA while on active duty. He continued his Navy career going to officer's candidate school, then got his MA, Phd, and retired as a Lt. Commander as well as became a full Professor at the Naval War College. Their son followed Dad's footsteps, except he went to Annapolis right out of high school.

[tomwed]

Can all children who are in "regular" classes succeed in college?

I'm not sure. It depends what you mean by regular.

The high school where I taught had 4 levels for students; special education, general, college prep and advanced placement. The 4 levels begin with 1 as the lowest level.

no for regular [[level 1 and 2] yes [college prep and advanced placement [level 3 and 4]]
If:
The teacher is professional.
The coursework is challenging.
The grading is honest.

Is it shameful not to? Why or why not?
no for regular [[level 1 and 2] yes [college prep and advanced placement [level 3 and 4]]
It would be a shame to handicap a student by not providing a professional teacher who makes the curriculum relevant and challenging and grades the student's work honestly.
It's a shame when students are placed in level 3 and 4 courses but unwilling to do the work.

[CharTalk]

Whenever you start a sentence with "All people should . . . " you should probably stop. Very little in life is for everyone.

Personally, I think the reason for college goes far beyond career preparation. My father always told me, "College is not a trade school." I truly believe he was right. He was one of the brightest, most well read, thoughtful people I ever knew even though he only had an 8th grade education. He was born in 1894 - a time when a college degree was rare - and had to quit school to work to help support his mother and sisters. Not having a chance for a college education was his biggest regret in life and he planned for mine from the day I was born. Consequently, I grew up with a high regard for college and ended up being a college professor.

For me - college opened my mind and taught me to see the world from many different perspectives. I am a lifelong learner and even in retirement try to learn at least three new things a day. This has kept me young, and still feel a sense of wonder when I experience the world around me.

I am so grateful for my college education.

Is it for everyone? Of course, not. There are many kinds of intelligence. College primarily caters to people with high verbal and mathematical intelligence. I have those, but I can't carry a tune, paint a picture, design a building or find my car in the Publix parking lot. Those talents require a different way of thinking and often can be nurtured in institutions other than higher education.

From my experiencing teaching at the college level, any student of at least average intelligence with the right motivation can succeed in college if they pick the right college and the right major. It isn't always the brightest students who graduate at the top of their class. And it's not always the Harvard Valedictorians who succeeds in life.

No one should feel pressured into going, but everyone who wants the experience deserves the chance to have it.

[sunnyatlast]

Whenever you start a sentence with "All people should . . . " you should probably stop. Very little in life is for everyone.

Personally, I think the reason for college goes far beyond career preparation. My father always told me, "College is not a trade school." I truly believe he was right. He was one of the brightest, most well read, thoughtful people I ever knew even though he only had an 8th grade education. He was born in 1894 - a time when a college degree was rare - and had to quit school to work to help support his mother and sisters. Not having a chance for a college education was his biggest regret in life and he planned for mine from the day I was born. Consequently, I grew up with a high regard for college and ended up being a college professor.

For me - college opened my mind and taught me to see the world from many different perspectives. I am a lifelong learner and even in retirement try to learn at least three new things a day. This has kept me young, and still feel a sense oif wonder

So true. But in the end it usually boils down to personal motivation--either ignited or deadened in middle school and high school--which is affected a lot by parents, teachers and other mentors a child may or may not have in the birth thru adolescent years.

That's why I think it's important to provide exposure in school to both technical/trade and college-prep curricula, and to not force any choices upon them when entering high school. I'm still aghast at seeing separate all-vocational-technical high schools and all-college-prep ones in some of the cities to which we moved as adults. I don't think 8th graders should be tracked nor be allowed to track themselves into one or the other at that age.

[Cedwards38]

No, but most are. It is not shameful for someone to pursue whatever happens to be their dream, regardless of whether that dream involves higher education, vocational education, homemaker, artist, craftsman, entrepreneur, or whatever.

[hulahips]

No. What built america was people who did not go to college but worked on assembly lines. Some will be very successful without college. Our truck drivers, landscapers, farmers, electrical workers, cooks, and on and on. So many today go to college, come out strapped with debt and cannot even find a job. You can be very successful without college if you work hard. Why should someone go to college if they don't want to. They will only drop out after a yr or so . no college is not for everyone nor should it be. You can be self taught and be brilliant if you choose and bonus debt free