Side striping of the golf cart path

[virgind]

Some one please tell me why the side stripping of the golf cart paths have to be done. Thats an expence that is a waste of money.

[Topspinmo]

Funny, I read the other day it had been voted down?

[billethkid]

As long as residents or more likely representatives find a way to pay for something that is all that is needed to not follow the decisions made?

The consistency we have enjoyed these many years is now a neighborhood by neighborhood decision?

It was nice while it lasted these many, MANY years!

[TheVillageChicken]

Some one please tell me why the side stripping of the golf cart paths have to be done. Thats an expence that is a waste of money.

I believe the pro-striping folks are being telepathically manipulated by aliens who want to use the paths as runways for their space craft.

[PennBF]

I read that CDD 8 had the courage to go ahead and vote it in for their District. Like it or not you have to give them credit for taking action on something they want and the Village's District Management did not want them to have. Actually if we are being clear we could say the people who live outside The Village's did not want them to have.:BigApplause:

[virgind]

Still my question is why is it needed. You cant see the side of the path? Come on people.

[JAKES2173]

It would be nice if the folks spending our money surveyed the residents of their district first. Almost everyone i speak to feel it is a waste of money.

[tomwed]

Isn't this a great opportunity for the rest of the villages to see if the number of accidents go down?

If it doesn't improve safety, which admittedly is hard to measure, close calls and all than maybe the rest of the districts could help chip in to defray the cost. That may set up a president. So the next time an idea comes along one district could try it out and the other districts would help defray the cost if it fails or add the same service if it doesn't.

This strikes me as an opportunity to try new ideas out.

[Philip Winkler]

This is a complete waste of our money to stripe the sides of the multi-modal paths in our district (CDD 8).

I am very much opposed to this. There are no proven benefits to doing this. There are no facts that back up this poor decision.

The issue of golf cart safety needs to be addressed through education and more communication.

If others feel the same; email your district 8 supervisors: 'dist8board@districtgov.org'; 'sal.torname@districtgov.org'; 'Victor.ray@districtgov.org'; 'dennis.hayes@districtgov.org'; 'Ray.banks@districtgov.org'; 'Joe.Elliott@districtgov.org'

[Bogie Shooter]

I read that CDD 8 had the courage to go ahead and vote it in for their District. Like it or not you have to give them credit for taking action on something they want and the Village's District Management did not want them to have. Actually if we are being clear we could say the people who live outside The Village's did not want them to have.:BigApplause:

Courage?

[Bogie Shooter]

Isn't this a great opportunity for the rest of the villages to see if the number of accidents go down?

If it doesn't improve safety, which admittedly is hard to measure, close calls and all than maybe the rest of the districts could help chip in to defray the cost. That may set up a president. So the next time an idea comes along one district could try it out and the other districts would help defray the cost if it fails or add the same service if it doesn't.

This strikes me as an opportunity to try new ideas out.

Are there a lot of accidents now?

[Navy (SSBN 633)]

I live in District 8 and DO NOT want striping. I cant believe our "esteemed" supervisors voted for this after voting it down project wide. Unbelievable waste of OUR $$$$$!!!!!

[tomwed]

Are there a lot of accidents now?
Who knows?

[Buckeye Bob]

From what I've read on this issue, the cost is less than $1 a year per household so I don't know that it's that much of an issue. My opinion is if there is striping to be done at all, it makes a lot more sense to have it in the center rather than the sides. :mornincoffee:

[johnnyb]

very sad day when the people who live in district 8 have no say as to how our money is being spent.
where is this 1 mile of path that is so dangerous located?
complete waste of money

[TheVillageChicken]

very sad day when the people who live in district 8 have no say as to how our money is being spent.
where is this 1 mile of path that is so dangerous located?
complete waste of money

Here's how that works. A majority of voters elect an official. That official now has the proxy authority to spend all the voters' money. My advice is to worry more about how this process unfolds on a national level.

[manaboutown]

Here's how that works. A majority of voters elect an official. That official now has the proxy authority to spend all the voter's money. My advice is to worry more about how this process unfolds on a national level.

Boy do I concur with this!

It will be interesting to see what the outcome of the cart path striping will be as far as cart drivers are concerned. Will they like it? Will they not like it? Will carting become safer?

It seems to me that after experiencing driving some striped cart paths folks will know whether to stripe or not elsewhere in The Villages.

[Callaway Guy]

I read that CDD 8 had the courage to go ahead and vote it in for their District. Like it or not you have to give them credit for taking action on something they want and the Village's District Management did not want them to have. Actually if we are being clear we could say the people who live outside The Village's did not want them to have.:BigApplause:


I could get pretty damn courageous if I had the power to make a decision to spend RETIRED people's money, who wouldn't? The PWAC is not going to spend a dime on this idiot decision; the RETIRED residents of CDD 8 are going to have to pay for this. I'm really p/o about this; I didn't work hard all my life to come to a place where three people want to frivolously spend RETIRED folks money so they can puff their chest out and say "look what we've done". It's easy as hell to do when you spend RETIRED folks money to do it. Oh, did I mention they're spending RETIRED folk's money to do this????? I live in CDD 8 and there are plenty of people here who thinks this rogue decision to paint side stripes is STUPID.

[virgind]

Shall we check some pocket books. Just like the tree issue. Almost. Problem if one district does the others will follow.

[memason]

No one is gonna come to your door and ask for $5 to pay for the stripes! These funds are already sitting there and you are not going to get a refund. It's your amenity fees that you pay every month. They are spent to maintain and make things better for all of us.

Personally, I am happy that they spend that money on things I can see. Marking the paths is a good thing, in my opinion. I would rather have the silver reflectors along the side of the paths, but that is just my personal preference. Any markings are better than none.

Like others have said, I am a little disappointed that these districts cannot agree on something this simple and keep the Villages consistent.

[Callaway Guy]

Like others have said, I am a little disappointed that these districts cannot agree on something this simple and keep the Villages consistent.

4 up north has yellow stripes down the center; 8 will have white (who knows) stripes down the sides. What's next, alternating center and side stripes with another CDD? I can hear it now after an accident, "I felt too crowded on the side with those stripes, that's why I was driving over the center". Yea, a center with no clear definition.

[billethkid]

If you live in the area in question and are not happy with the decision and you have not called or contacted the representatives....shame on you.

Those elected, even at this level are special interest, politically or in some other way motivated. They need to be overwhelmed by the majority.....which never seems to happen....therefore they get to do what they want.


Hmmmnnnn that all has a familiar ring to it!

[Polar Bear]

...Those elected...need to be overwhelmed by the majority.....which never seems to happen...

Big assumption here...what if the majority are silent because they have no objection?

[Bogie Shooter]

Who knows?

Then what does your idea accomplish?

[bagboy]

Isn't this a great opportunity for the rest of the villages to see if the number of accidents go down?

If it doesn't improve safety, which admittedly is hard to measure, close calls and all than maybe the rest of the districts could help chip in to defray the cost. That may set up a president. So the next time an idea comes along one district could try it out and the other districts would help defray the cost if it fails or add the same service if it doesn't.

This strikes me as an opportunity to try new ideas out.

Sir, we are talking one mile of MMP in district 8, not a good test sample in my opinion.

[bagboy]

Who knows?

The district knows and it has been published. 67 accidents in 4 years, 12 fatalities, and I think only 3 or 4 accidents after dusk in those 4 years.

[bagboy]

From what I've read on this issue, the cost is less than $1 a year per household so I don't know that it's that much of an issue. My opinion is if there is striping to be done at all, it makes a lot more sense to have it in the center rather than the sides. :mornincoffee:

I remember my days living in Ohio. And I also remember various levies proposed to be on the ballot for schools, public works, etc. And the selling point was..it's only $32 dollars per $100,000 home value, and then it's only $79 per $100,000 home value. And before you know it, your yearly tax bill goes from $1800 per year to $7500 per year. Been there, seen that.

[alurb]

Some one please tell me why the side stripping of the golf cart paths have to be done. Thats an expence that is a waste of money.

Just a center stripe like on the G.C. bridge for safety please...

[OCsun]

I could get pretty damn courageous if I had the power to make a decision to spend RETIRED people's money, who wouldn't? The PWAC is not going to spend a dime on this idiot decision; the RETIRED residents of CDD 8 are going to have to pay for this. I'm really p/o about this; I didn't work hard all my life to come to a place where three people want to frivolously spend RETIRED folks money so they can puff their chest out and say "look what we've done". It's easy as hell to do when you spend RETIRED folks money to do it. Oh, did I mention they're spending RETIRED folk's money to do this????? I live in CDD 8 and there are plenty of people here who thinks this rogue decision to paint side stripes is STUPID.

The cost amounts to approximately 20 cent per home per year. :loco:

[bagboy]

If you live in the area in question and are not happy with the decision and you have not called or contacted the representatives....shame on you.

Those elected, even at this level are special interest, politically or in some other way motivated. They need to be overwhelmed by the majority.....which never seems to happen....therefore they get to do what they want.


Hmmmnnnn that all has a familiar ring to it!

Yes it does. I contacted my reps and district this morning via email. I did get a response from one district supervisor and his stance was...it's only .20 per household. And so the next whimsical project will be how much per household?

[virgind]

Impeachment get the rope

[njbchbum]

The district knows and it has been published. 67 accidents in 4 years, 12 fatalities, and I think only 3 or 4 accidents after dusk in those 4 years.

Thanx for those stats...are they just for District 8? If not, do you have the stats just for that District?

[tomwed]

Then what does your idea accomplish?
Someone sees a need in all the districts. i.e. Cart Passenger Safety
They propose a solution. i.e. Stripes
My idea is simply to add stripes in one district and see if it improves safety.
If it does not work than the other districts share the expense of the experiment.
If it does improve safety, less accidents, the other districts adopt the solution. i.e. Stripes

You asked me if there was safety problem. Is there too many accidents?
And I asked the group who knows how many accidents there were?

I asked "Who knows?".

[virgind]

Probably all those fatalities were with an automobile maybe one or two were cart to cart. One was a mans wife fell out as he was turning into a tunnel. Probably going to fast. I doubt any of the deaths were because of no center line. Many I would say was because the driver was drunk. Lets be honest about this stuff. This is beginning to sound like Washington. Just a way to squander away money. If that is the only way to get rid of overage on funds then cut the amenity fees .

[JoMar]

I live in District 8 and DO NOT want striping. I cant believe our "esteemed" supervisors voted for this after voting it down project wide. Unbelievable waste of OUR $$$$$!!!!!

Remember this when elections come around. The problem is, as it is everywhere, the strong don't run, and stuff happens. A supervisor position anywhere takes intestinal fortitude to do what makes sense and very few have that anymore. They want the position but don't want the personal exposure that comes with it.

[JoMar]

No one is gonna come to your door and ask for $5 to pay for the stripes! These funds are already sitting there and you are not going to get a refund. It's your amenity fees that you pay every month. They are spent to maintain and make things better for all of us.

Personally, I am happy that they spend that money on things I can see. Marking the paths is a good thing, in my opinion. I would rather have the silver reflectors along the side of the paths, but that is just my personal preference. Any markings are better than none.

Like others have said, I am a little disappointed that these districts cannot agree on something this simple and keep the Villages consistent.

It's not simple because there are a lot of us that see no need for stripping.

[JoMar]

The district knows and it has been published. 67 accidents in 4 years, 12 fatalities, and I think only 3 or 4 accidents after dusk in those 4 years.

But not on the MMP's. I believe the issue is the MMP's not the collisions with cars on the roads.

[Villageswimmer]

very sad day when the people who live in district 8 have no say as to how our money is being spent.
where is this 1 mile of path that is so dangerous located?
complete waste of money

Agree and, yes, we contacted the supervisors before this passed and asked them not to vote yes on this. I don't know anyone in 8 who wants it.

[tomwed]

The cost amounts to approximately 20 cent per home per year. :loco:
I lose more than that in my couch every week.

[golf2140]

I just drove home from Brownwood in the dark and got home safely without lines in the paths !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[bagboy]

But not on the MMP's. I believe the issue is the MMP's not the collisions with cars on the roads.

You are right. I believe that most of the fatalities were car to cart. There may have been one or two cart ejection on the MMPs. That I am not sure of.

[tomwed]

You are right. I believe that most of the fatalities were car to cart. There may have been one or two cart ejection on the MMPs. That I am not sure of.
And that's the problem. No one knows for sure how many accidents there are. I don't think it's recorded and it should be recorded. If for no other reason than to assure villagers and their guests that golf carts are safe and getting ejected is not a concern for the driver or passenger.

I think that's just wishful thinking.

[billethkid]

Does anybody believe the side striping will affect any of the accident numbers presented?

[Challenger]

Once again it is not the amount of money but the principle of the issue. There is NO evidence that spending this money will have any effect on the issue.

Remember the names of commissioners who vote to spend money wirhout any real justification and see that they are not reelected

[asianthree]

Does anybody believe the side striping will affect any of the accident numbers presented?

No.

[tomwed]

Does anybody believe the side striping will affect any of the accident numbers presented?
For twenty cents, I'd like to find out. Heck, let's make it a dollar and try 4 more ideas out.

[memason]

Just for moment, lets assume there is NO COST to Villagers for any sort of markings on the MMP's.

Therefore, could someone make an argument for why we should not make these paths more visible and potentially safer for nighttime travel ?

[graciegirl]

Just for moment, lets assume there is NO COST to Villagers for any sort of markings on the MMP's.

Therefore, could someone make an argument for why we should not make these paths more visible and potentially safer for nighttime travel ?



Mike. I don't think that would change the safety level. WE have to self police. If our night vision isn't good, don't drive at night.


I have not driven my golf cart during high season since we moved here. The nutty driving made me feel safer in a car.

[outlaw]

Mike. I don't think that would change the safety level. WE have to self police. If our night vision isn't good, don't drive at night.


I have not driven my golf cart during high season since we moved here. The nutty driving made me feel safer in a car.


It almost sounds like you're saying life isn't perfect in TV?

[Marathon Man]

Just for moment, lets assume there is NO COST to Villagers for any sort of markings on the MMP's.

Therefore, could someone make an argument for why we should not make these paths more visible and potentially safer for nighttime travel ?

That argument has been made multiple times. As a runner and bicycle rider, I can clearly recognize the added hazard to me by stiping the sides.

[skip0358]

For what it's worth here my thoughts.I use my cart 100% of the time in TV and drive a lot after dark. For the small cost district wide I don't think it would hurt on the MM paths to have stripping. There are some areas that are very dark at night. In 2013 Yamaha changed their windshields to a darker tint which reduced your night visibility. If you don't think so stick your head outside at night to see the difference. It did help in the sunlight though. Also a few years back TV started adding lights in the Tunnels, WHY was some questions asked, guess what it made a big difference. I do agree Project wide a decision should have been made so ALL districts had the same stripping.I would have liked the White reflective on the sides and Yellow reflective where there are Islands in the middle.Why do we need mirrors entering & leaving the tunnels? Why were the stop signs in the tunnels changed? Why did they put speed bumps in the tunnels? Why was the lead edge of the sidewalk going over the Sumter bridge cut back ? Why were the side edges of the wooden bridge raised by the Morse gate n/o 466 ? Why was a wooden bridge added to get to the mail station on Morse Blvd N/O 466.
Because they tried to make things a little safer !

[outlaw]

That argument has been made multiple times. As a runner and bicycle rider, I can clearly recognize the added hazard to me by stiping the sides.

How about a dashed stripe down the middle like in CDD4? Have you run up there to see how the traffic responds to you? If you have, are there any differences you could share?

[njbchbum]

snipped
My idea is simply to add stripes in one district and see if it improves safety.
If it does not work than the other districts share the expense of the experiment.
If it does improve safety, less accidents, the other districts adopt the solution. i.e. Stripes
snipped

There are now stripes in District 4 - why not use that as your 'test district'? - Because the Supvs in Dist 8 don't want to wait and find out.

Bigger question - how dangerous was the path thru District 4 before the striping?

[JoMar]

For what it's worth here my thoughts.I use my cart 100% of the time in TV and drive a lot after dark. For the small cost district wide I don't think it would hurt on the MM paths to have stripping. There are some areas that are very dark at night. In 2013 Yamaha changed their windshields to a darker tint which reduced your night visibility. If you don't think so stick your head outside at night to see the difference. It did help in the sunlight though. Also a few years back TV started adding lights in the Tunnels, WHY was some questions asked, guess what it made a big difference. I do agree Project wide a decision should have been made so ALL districts had the same stripping.I would have liked the White reflective on the sides and Yellow reflective where there are Islands in the middle.Why do we need mirrors entering & leaving the tunnels? Why were the stop signs in the tunnels changed? Why did they put speed bumps in the tunnels? Why was the lead edge of the sidewalk going over the Sumter bridge cut back ? Why were the side edges of the wooden bridge raised by the Morse gate n/o 466 ? Why was a wooden bridge added to get to the mail station on Morse Blvd N/O 466.
Because they tried to make things a little safer !

Agree to the point that when things make sense then the investment should be made. When they don't make sense they should be avoided. Because you find it difficult to drive at night doesn't mean we all do. The aesthetics of the MMP will be changed and not for the better. They are not cart paths, they are multi-modal paths and runners, walkers, bikes all share and I suspect adding stripping may increase their vulnerability.

[skip0358]

Agree to the point that when things make sense then the investment should be made. When they don't make sense they should be avoided. Because you find it difficult to drive at night doesn't mean we all do. The aesthetics of the MMP will be changed and not for the better. They are not cart paths, they are multi-modal paths and runners, walkers, bikes all share and I suspect adding stripping may increase their vulnerability.

Not going to argue but I do ride a bike, don't walk or run but how would side stripping increase their vulnerability? They don't run at night. As for night visibility the reflective paint would just show up better when hit with headlights just like on the Highway. If it's decided NOT to do it so be it. If it's done then so be it. Not my decision
.

[JoMar]

Not going to argue but I do ride a bike, don't walk or run but how would side stripping increase their vulnerability? They don't run at night. As for night visibility the reflective paint would just show up better when hit with headlights just like on the Highway. If it's decided NOT to do it so be it. If it's done then so be it. Not my decision
.

Kinda agree but I have seen bikers and runners after sunset but not many.. The concern expressed by other bikers and runners is that if the paths were striped there would be carters that would try and stay in their lane. I'm neither a biker or runner so can't speak from experience, only what was expressed. I'm not a fan of striping as you probably assumed but like you, not much I can do, not our decision.

[OCsun]

For what it's worth here my thoughts.I use my cart 100% of the time in TV and drive a lot after dark. For the small cost district wide I don't think it would hurt on the MM paths to have stripping. There are some areas that are very dark at night. In 2013 Yamaha changed their windshields to a darker tint which reduced your night visibility. If you don't think so stick your head outside at night to see the difference. It did help in the sunlight though. Also a few years back TV started adding lights in the Tunnels, WHY was some questions asked, guess what it made a big difference. I do agree Project wide a decision should have been made so ALL districts had the same stripping.I would have liked the White reflective on the sides and Yellow reflective where there are Islands in the middle.Why do we need mirrors entering & leaving the tunnels? Why were the stop signs in the tunnels changed? Why did they put speed bumps in the tunnels? Why was the lead edge of the sidewalk going over the Sumter bridge cut back ? Why were the side edges of the wooden bridge raised by the Morse gate n/o 466 ? Why was a wooden bridge added to get to the mail station on Morse Blvd N/O 466.
Because they tried to make things a little safer !

Thanks for explaining what I have been thinking.

[Marathon Man]

How about a dashed stripe down the middle like in CDD4? Have you run up there to see how the traffic responds to you? If you have, are there any differences you could share?

I have not. But I am curious to know if drivers tend to give more clearance when passing because they are driven to fully change lanes, or if there is a tendency to squeeze by because they feel they should stay in their lane.

I can tell you that I feel quite safe around 99% of us who operate our vehicles safely and understand that the paths are shared by everyone.

[OCsun]

Mike. I don't think that would change the safety level. WE have to self police. If our night vision isn't good, don't drive at night.


I have not driven my golf cart during high season since we moved here. The nutty driving made me feel safer in a car.

A big reason I moved to The Villages, is that it is a golf cart community.
I can see just fine according to my doctor and I drive within the speed limit alcohol free. :)

Guess what! They have made many improvements to help make us feel safer when we are carting and I really appreciate it. However, some new areas which are not lighted or properly marked can be a strain at times, such as the paths leading to Brownwood.

Can I drive just fine without the strips? Yes! Would it be easier for me to see and add to the enjoyment of my ride? Absolutely!

Sorry to call you out, but I do police my own abilities and nobody has the right to imply that people should stay home if they can't see at night. You are making an unfounded judgement. If improvements can be made to make our cart paths more enjoyable then we should do it.

[festusrules]

just curious, do you drive the cart paths at night?

[Callaway Guy]

Just for moment, lets assume there is NO COST to Villagers for any sort of markings on the MMP's.

Therefore, could someone make an argument for why we should not make these paths more visible and potentially safer for nighttime travel ?

When was the last cart accident (single or multiple carts, day or night, rain or shine, sober or drunk, young or old), that was due to someone not being able to see the sides of the MMP?

District 8, stop the nonsense; do what the majority of your residents want and stop the striping.

[memason]

When was the last cart accident (single or multiple carts, day or night, rain or shine, sober or drunk, young or old), that was due to someone not being able to see the sides of the MMP?

District 8, stop the nonsense; do what the majority of your residents want and stop the striping.

I live in District 8...what makes you think you're in the majority?

[Mleeja]

A big reason I moved to The Villages, is that it is a golf cart community.
I can see just fine according to my doctor and I drive within the speed limit alcohol free. :)

Guess what! They have made many improvements to help make us feel safer when we are carting and I really appreciate it. However, some new areas which are not lighted or properly marked can be a strain at times, such as the paths leading to Brownwood.

Can I drive just fine without the strips? Yes! Would it be easier for me to see and add to the enjoyment of my ride? Absolutely!

Sorry to call you out, but I do police my own abilities and nobody has the right to imply that people should stay home if they can't see at night. You are making an unfounded judgement. If improvements can be made to make our cart paths more enjoyable then we should do it.

I have stayed out of this thread because I've been commenting in the other threads on striping but wanted to jump in to thank you for your well stated post. I might "steal" you thoughts for other posts! :thumbup:

[bargee]

When we became Villagers in 1999 you were not allowed to operate a golf cart after dark,this was an offense for which you could be fined.I really don't have an opinion on way or the other regarding striping however I would like to see this issue resolved as I would worry that if the"Powers that be"perceive this to be a liability issue they could possibly deny us the ability to drive at night at all.

[fred53]

Some one please tell me why the side stripping of the golf cart paths have to be done. Thats an expence that is a waste of money.

it's "striping"...

[bagboy]

When was the last cart accident (single or multiple carts, day or night, rain or shine, sober or drunk, young or old), that was due to someone not being able to see the sides of the MMP?

District 8, stop the nonsense; do what the majority of your residents want and stop the striping.

You might want to know that of the 3 District 8 supervisors who voted for the striping, 2 are former directors of the POA, and 1 is still a director in the POA. To me that raises big red flags as to the POAs ultimate involvement in governing us, not "looking out" for our best interests which is what they profess month after month
It's up to each individual to decide whether this information matters or not.

[PennBF]

Oop's, Bagboy is right except he left out that Curb striping and mid golf lane striping both were over 85% in favor in the POA Bulletin survey. How about looking into the CDD's that have no POA influence and challenging them for not doing the striping or "attacking their motives. I personally don't care either way but hate to see the on going one sided statements to support positions and for one reason or another avoiding facts in favor of using emotions! :oops:

[Callaway Guy]

I live in District 8...what makes you think you're in the majority?

It's like no one will admit to voting for Obama; he got in twice but everyone you ask will say, "Well, I didn't vote for him". People say what you want to hear - I can voice my opinion against it (you know, actually talking to people) and will get like responses. You can talk to a person for it, and you will get like responses.

I feel like I'm part of the majority, you feel like you're part of the majority. That's our opinions and you know what those are like. I really wish the CDD would put it to a vote by the residents.

[Callaway Guy]

it's "striping"...

Darn, I thought for a moment we were going to have hookers with shrimps on their toes stripping.

[bagboy]

Oop's, Bagboy is right except he left out that Curb striping and mid golf lane striping both were over 85% in favor in the POA Bulletin survey. How about looking into the CDD's that have no POA influence and challenging them for not doing the striping or "attacking their motives. I personally don't care either way but hate to see the on going one sided statements to support positions and for one reason or another avoiding facts in favor of using emotions! :oops:

I respect what the developer has done here. I am not envious of their success as I know how much hard work over the decades must have been put into creating The Villages. And for the most part, I think the actions of the developer usually, but not always benefit the residents here. So I do support the developer, but not blindly so.
Now for the POA, for 5 years I supported the idea of the POA, and I thought its existence seemed to provide a good check and balance tool with respect to the decisions made by the developer and the various districts and their supervisors. My opinion and support for the POA has changed and mostly due to what I perceive as a desire of the POA to obtain more power, and have a bigger voice in how we Villagers live in our communities.

Lastly, you insinuate there is bias on my part without having any idea as to how I arrived at my opinion on the parties involved, or how long it took me to do so. In reality, I seem to have a different opinion from yours, so I must be biased. I think that is a shallow opinion of the abilities of people in general to have their own opinion on topics, and also have their view of things to evolve over time and become quite different.

And I think I have wasted too much time on this subject.

[Advogado]

A big reason I moved to The Villages, is that it is a golf cart community.
I can see just fine according to my doctor and I drive within the speed limit alcohol free. :)

Guess what! They have made many improvements to help make us feel safer when we are carting and I really appreciate it. However, some new areas which are not lighted or properly marked can be a strain at times, such as the paths leading to Brownwood.

Can I drive just fine without the strips? Yes! Would it be easier for me to see and add to the enjoyment of my ride? Absolutely!

Sorry to call you out, but I do police my own abilities and nobody has the right to imply that people should stay home if they can't see at night. You are making an unfounded judgement. If improvements can be made to make our cart paths more enjoyable then we should do it.
I don't really have a dog in this fight, but I do have an honest question:

Why is all the focus on double sideline striping instead of one broken yellow line down the middle of the path?

The latter approach would cost less than 1/2 the amount of double-edge striping, be a visible guide a night for helping to keep carts on the path, and serve the additional purpose of helping to keep carts on their own side of the path.

[PennBF]

I appreciate your negative position on the POA and support for the Developer. Now for the test. Did you know that some of the 12 POA board members are PHd's and have taught at the College/University level? Did you know that some served in senior management positions in top 500 Corporations? Did you know that some are CPA's and have very strong Financial background.Of course there is many other impressive history on some of the Board members Now can you tell me the education background and outside experience of Ms Tutt? How about the ethics notification to the management of the Villages. Most large Corporations and Universities have documented rules for ethics and renew them each year. The POA has these as standard acceptable behavior. Did you know the POA has lasted for 40 years and the VHA was only formed after the Developer lost a $40M lawsuit for neglecting properties, Specifically the Paradise Center and was angry that the POA worked to ensure he met his obligation to the residents. This is enough. Have fun.:wave:

[bagboy]

The POA board members are obviously very intelligent individuals. And I'm sure there are some very sharp people working for us, and the developer. I sincerely want what's best for the future of our community, and my view on who can take us on the best path is different than others, and that's just the way life is.
And sometimes the most astute, scholarly types are thinkers, and not always the visionaries and doers and builders of assets and communities, and businesses, etc. But, as someone once said, enough is enough. Have a great Labor Day !!!

[billethkid]

I appreciate your negative position on the POA and support for the Developer. Now for the test. Did you know that some of the 12 POA board members are PHd's and have taught at the College/University level? Did you know that some served in senior management positions in top 500 Corporations? Did you know that some are CPA's and have very strong Financial background.Of course there is many other impressive history on some of the Board members Now can you tell me the education background and outside experience of Ms Tutt? How about the ethics notification to the management of the Villages. Most large Corporations and Universities have documented rules for ethics and renew them each year. The POA has these as standard acceptable behavior. Did you know the POA has lasted for 40 years and the VHA was only formed after the Developer lost a $40M lawsuit for neglecting properties, Specifically the Paradise Center and was angry that the POA worked to ensure he met his obligation to the residents. This is enough. Have fun.:wave:

The POA board members are obviously very intelligent individuals. And I'm sure there are some very sharp people working for us, and the developer. I sincerely want what's best for the future of our community, and my view on who can take us on the best path is different than others, and that's just the way life is.
And sometimes the most astute, scholarly types are thinkers, and not always the visionaries and doers and builders of assets and communities, and businesses, etc. But, as someone once said, enough is enough. Have a great Labor Day !!!

Lest we forget none of the above are immune to the politics. For many, much of the progress in their lives was politically influenced.

Higher levels of education and position does bring a different level of experience.....not neccessarily an automatic better qualifier for many issues in every day life.

[OCsun]

I don't really have a dog in this fight, but I do have an honest question:

Why is all the focus on double sideline striping instead of one broken yellow line down the middle of the path?

The latter approach would cost less than 1/2 the amount of double-edge striping, be a visible guide a night for helping to keep carts on the path, and serve the additional purpose of helping to keep carts on their own side of the path.

Truthfully, either would work for me. I think the real focus is the cost. Others have mentioned concerns of carts, possibly not providing the proper space needed for walkers or bikers if there were center lines.

I could provide a list of stupid comparisons which cost all of us money. Then add a negative statement such as; why is it OK to pay for these things and not what I want? I won't, because many of these things provide much enjoyment or make life easier for some Villager's.

Trying to talk people into seeing things my way, is not my style. My goal is to enjoy my golf cart rides with as much visionary guidance as possible. If that requires me to pay 20 cents, by golly I'm going to do it!

[lapkaz]

Guess you have driven your golf cart on the paths during a bad rain storm and at nite. Buena Vista is terrible between Arnold Palmer and Lake Miorna rec. center.

[billethkid]

Guess you have driven your golf cart on the paths during a bad rain storm and at nite. Buena Vista is terrible between Arnold Palmer and Lake Miorna rec. center.

Not sure what this message is?

[Marathon Man]

Guess you have driven your golf cart on the paths during a bad rain storm and at nite. Buena Vista is terrible between Arnold Palmer and Lake Miorna rec. center.

Thank you. I will avoid that area at night when it is raining.

[foxmeadow]

[QUOTE=PennBF;1108779]I read that CDD 8 had the courage to go ahead and vote it in for their District. Like it or not you have to give them credit for taking action on something they want and the Village's District Management did not want them to have. Actually if we are being clear we could say the people who live outside The Village's did not want them to have./QUOTE]

I agree with you on one item:
1. The 3 Directors who voted to do it, without input from residents, are tied
to the POA (2 as former directors and 1 currently on the POA board) who
is on record as desiring to stripe. It appears the sole reason is to oppose
"Villages District Management", not the so called resident support.

2. COURAGE???
Audacity is a better word to describe these actions. I live in this District
and no one I have spoken with believe it is necessary. The residents feel
they never had input and the "Rogue" Directors have their own agenda,
which conflicts with their duties to represent the majority.

Most likely, if "Village Management" had decided to go ahead with striping,
the POA and the 3 Rogue directors would have been against it.
This waste of money and time will correct NOTHING.
There have been NO accidents of record, after dark, as a result of not seeing the edge of the MM path (NONE.)

[Callaway Guy]

[QUOTE=PennBF;1108779]I read that CDD 8 had the courage to go ahead and vote it in for their District. Like it or not you have to give them credit for taking action on something they want and the Village's District Management did not want them to have. Actually if we are being clear we could say the people who live outside The Village's did not want them to have./QUOTE]

I agree with you on one item:
1. The 3 Directors who voted to do it, without input from residents, are tied
to the POA (2 as former directors and 1 currently on the POA board) who
is on record as desiring to stripe. It appears the sole reason is to oppose
"Villages District Management", not the so called resident support.

2. COURAGE???
Audacity is a better word to describe these actions. I live in this District
and no one I have spoken with believe it is necessary. The residents feel
they never had input and the "Rogue" Directors have their own agenda,
which conflicts with their duties to represent the majority.

Most likely, if "Village Management" had decided to go ahead with striping,
the POA and the 3 Rogue directors would have been against it.
This waste of money and time will correct NOTHING.
There have been NO accidents of record, after dark, as a result of not seeing the edge of the MM path (NONE.)

:bigbow::agree: An incredible total waste of money and abuse of authority.

[billethkid]

Isn't there an issue of the so called "representatives" not following the desires of their constituency?

Does this have a familiar ring to it?

[Mleeja]

Isn't there an issue of the so called "representatives" not following the desires of their constituency?

Does this have a familiar ring to it?

Posters on this site sure does not constitute a "majority" for the district. It could very well be the "silent majority" have expressed their wishes in a different manner. If the poll conducted by the POA is accurate, the majority want some type of striping on the MMPs.

[Philip Winkler]

FYI, Here is Supervisor Dennis Hayes reply to my recent email opposing striping in CDD8:

I want to thank you for taking the time to contact me and for expressing your opinion about the vote by 3 members of our District #8 Board last Thursday afternoon.

The action by Supervisors Sal Torname, Victor Ray and Ray Banks to move ahead and add edge-striping to our multi-modal paths was taken, in my opinion, in spite of the lack of demonstrated need, without regard to the recommendation of our Engineer, and in total disregard for the strong desire by other Districts for consistency across The Villages. As a result, only District #8 funds will be used to pay for the striping instead of Project-wide funds. Further, if there is an accident on the multi-modal path attributable to the striping, the action to ignore the recommendation of our Engineer could make District #8 solely liable in the event of a lawsuit. It goes without saying that I totally agree with your position and my record demonstrates that I have recommended against and voted against striping on numerous occasions..

I am strongly suggesting to everyone who opposes the vote that was taken on Thursday, Sept. 3rd that they attend our next regularly scheduled District #8 Board meeting at the Lake Miona Rec Center at 11:30 am on Friday morning, October 16th and voice your opposition to the vote to stripe. It is apparent from their literature that the Property Owners Assoc. (POA) thinks that the majority of residents want striping. I, like you, disagree with that position and I believe that most residents of District #8 oppose it also. Residents need to loudly voice their opinion.

I think, perhaps, one of the most effective ways residents have to reverse the action of the Board is to submit signed petitions in sizable numbers of those opposed to the vote. I have attached a suggested format for a petition for your consideration. If you are interested in pursuing this course of action, please contact me. I can provide additional information.

I am also suggesting that you encourage all of your friends and neighbors who live within District #8 to write to their Board and to the Daily Sun expressing their opinion. If this issue matters to them, it is time to be more than silent.

I am not sure that you are aware that the three supervisors who voted for this striping have been or currently are all affiliated with the Property Owners Assoc. Two were former Directors of the POA who resigned their position when elected last November. The other is still currently a Director. It is a concern to me that a block vote by these three supervisors could be interpreted as promoting the POA's agenda in utter disregard to the best interest of District #8 residents.

Thank you for your support,
Dennis Hayes
Supervisor for District #8 &
Member of the Project-wide Advisory Committee (PWAC)

[Villageswimmer]

FYI, Here is Supervisor Dennis Hayes reply to my recent email opposing striping in CDD8:

I want to thank you for taking the time to contact me and for expressing your opinion about the vote by 3 members of our District #8 Board last Thursday afternoon.

The action by Supervisors Sal Torname, Victor Ray and Ray Banks to move ahead and add edge-striping to our multi-modal paths was taken, in my opinion, in spite of the lack of demonstrated need, without regard to the recommendation of our Engineer, and in total disregard for the strong desire by other Districts for consistency across The Villages. As a result, only District #8 funds will be used to pay for the striping instead of Project-wide funds. Further, if there is an accident on the multi-modal path attributable to the striping, the action to ignore the recommendation of our Engineer could make District #8 solely liable in the event of a lawsuit. It goes without saying that I totally agree with your position and my record demonstrates that I have recommended against and voted against striping on numerous occasions..

I am strongly suggesting to everyone who opposes the vote that was taken on Thursday, Sept. 3rd that they attend our next regularly scheduled District #8 Board meeting at the Lake Miona Rec Center at 11:30 am on Friday morning, October 16th and voice your opposition to the vote to stripe. It is apparent from their literature that the Property Owners Assoc. (POA) thinks that the majority of residents want striping. I, like you, disagree with that position and I believe that most residents of District #8 oppose it also. Residents need to loudly voice their opinion.

I think, perhaps, one of the most effective ways residents have to reverse the action of the Board is to submit signed petitions in sizable numbers of those opposed to the vote. I have attached a suggested format for a petition for your consideration. If you are interested in pursuing this course of action, please contact me. I can provide additional information.

I am also suggesting that you encourage all of your friends and neighbors who live within District #8 to write to their Board and to the Daily Sun expressing their opinion. If this issue matters to them, it is time to be more than silent.

I am not sure that you are aware that the three supervisors who voted for this striping have been or currently are all affiliated with the Property Owners Assoc. Two were former Directors of the POA who resigned their position when elected last November. The other is still currently a Director. It is a concern to me that a block vote by these three supervisors could be interpreted as promoting the POA's agenda in utter disregard to the best interest of District #8 residents.

Thank you for your support,
Dennis Hayes
Supervisor for District #8 &
Member of the Project-wide Advisory Committee (PWAC)

Important info. Meeting 10/16 @ 11:30 Lake Miona Rec Ctr

[memason]

when I read this, the first thing that popped into my mind was that he threw his fellow board members under the bus.

If these board members can't make simple decisions, such as striping the path or not, perhaps they should not be board members.

I live in District 8 and none of these guys will be getting my future vote.

By the way, I do believe something needs to be done to the MMP's to make them a bit more friendly to drive in darkness.

[JayDo]

Just wait till someone runs off the path and states that part of the line was covered up with leaves or somthing and sues district 8

[buzzy]

FYI, Here is Supervisor Dennis Hayes reply to my recent email opposing striping in CDD8:

I want to thank you for taking the time to contact me and for expressing your opinion about the vote by 3 members of our District #8 Board last Thursday afternoon.

The action by Supervisors Sal Torname, Victor Ray and Ray Banks to move ahead and add edge-striping to our multi-modal paths was taken, in my opinion, in spite of the lack of demonstrated need, without regard to the recommendation of our Engineer, and in total disregard for the strong desire by other Districts for consistency across The Villages. As a result, only District #8 funds will be used to pay for the striping instead of Project-wide funds. Further, if there is an accident on the multi-modal path attributable to the striping, the action to ignore the recommendation of our Engineer could make District #8 solely liable in the event of a lawsuit. It goes without saying that I totally agree with your position and my record demonstrates that I have recommended against and voted against striping on numerous occasions..

I am strongly suggesting to everyone who opposes the vote that was taken on Thursday, Sept. 3rd that they attend our next regularly scheduled District #8 Board meeting at the Lake Miona Rec Center at 11:30 am on Friday morning, October 16th and voice your opposition to the vote to stripe. It is apparent from their literature that the Property Owners Assoc. (POA) thinks that the majority of residents want striping. I, like you, disagree with that position and I believe that most residents of District #8 oppose it also. Residents need to loudly voice their opinion.

I think, perhaps, one of the most effective ways residents have to reverse the action of the Board is to submit signed petitions in sizable numbers of those opposed to the vote. I have attached a suggested format for a petition for your consideration. If you are interested in pursuing this course of action, please contact me. I can provide additional information.

I am also suggesting that you encourage all of your friends and neighbors who live within District #8 to write to their Board and to the Daily Sun expressing their opinion. If this issue matters to them, it is time to be more than silent.

I am not sure that you are aware that the three supervisors who voted for this striping have been or currently are all affiliated with the Property Owners Assoc. Two were former Directors of the POA who resigned their position when elected last November. The other is still currently a Director. It is a concern to me that a block vote by these three supervisors could be interpreted as promoting the POA's agenda in utter disregard to the best interest of District #8 residents.

Thank you for your support,
Dennis Hayes
Supervisor for District #8 &
Member of the Project-wide Advisory Committee (PWAC)

I got the same message, so I guess that Hayes has a prepared response. I had voted for the two "Ray" guys when they opposed the developer-appointed incumbents. So, they, too, are out of control.

[Marathon Man]

Important info. Meeting 10/16 @ 11:30 Lake Miona Rec Ctr

I will be there. Quick question. Is the meeting open to all TV residents? I suspect that this may be a standing room only meeting. I would not like to see CDD8 residents squeezed out of the room.

[looneycat]

so, er, um, I guess a discussion of the 'glow in the dark' striping is out of the questiion.....:shrug:

[alurb]

Some one please tell me why the side stripping of the golf cart paths have to be done. Thats an expence that is a waste of money.

Center line and only as needed. ..PLEASE

[HMLRHT1]

I believe that there should be a The Villages general vote sent to all owners of property here. This way once and for all every owner of property will have their vote counted and record and we will finally see if there is the desire by the majority to have stripping, center or side done and the results will end all the confusion. Having the district representatives vote based on the handful of residents who respond to or go to district meetings is not resolving this issue. A full owner response will resolve this.

[outlaw]

We elect representatives to act on our behalf, in our best interest, as they see fit. We decry the politician who governs based on poll results on a given issue. Our country political system is designed to NOT act based on the majority opinion, but rather to protect the minority interests. Now, here we are, demanding a vote of the population at large. Why should we have representatives, if everything that one disagrees with the representative council has to go to a vote by the residents. If you don't like the outcome, wait for the next election cycle, and, either run for office or vote someone else in. Too many of you insist on getting your way or you act like children throwing temper tantrums. You people are too old to occupy wall street.

[Mleeja]

I believe that there should be a The Villages general vote sent to all owners of property here. This way once and for all every owner of property will have their vote counted and record and we will finally see if there is the desire by the majority to have stripping, center or side done and the results will end all the confusion. Having the district representatives vote based on the handful of residents who respond to or go to district meetings is not resolving this issue. A full owner response will resolve this.

What the poster is proposing is not unheard of. Just take a look at California. They have ballot propositions on all types of issues. Because this issue is such a hot button issue, I could see it being a ballot issue.

That said, how many will actually take the time to vote? Voter turnout in elections has historically been lower than 50%. Probably less for ballot propositions that appear at the end of the ballot. Also, if one thinks this would end the discussion, I have a sinking bridge on Morris Ave. I would like to sell you.

I am resigned to the fact that striping will not happen as the PWC has voted striping down, but it will not end my support for striping and speaking out for it.

[graciegirl]

[///

[rustyp]

I would be interested in seeing the yes / no vote summation of all the districts sorted by resident elected representatives Vs developer appointed representatives.

[graciegirl]

I would be interested in seeing the yes / no vote summation of all the districts sorted by resident elected representatives Vs developer appointed representatives.



There was a poll on the online news. Does anyone remember how it went?


This is an issue that does not get my blood pressure up. Other than I never want the residents to run the area I live in.


Almost always it is some blow hard know it all with no experience and no common sense who wants to "serve" in this capacity.

[rustyp]

There was a poll on the online news. Does anyone remember how it went?


This is an issue that does not get my blood pressure up. Other than I never want the residents to run the area I live in.


Almost always it is some blow hard know it all with no experience and no common sense who wants to "serve" in this capacity.

I am not looking for a poll - I am seeking the facts. Hopefully the facts will shed a little better insight then blow hard responses.

[billethkid]

I am not looking for a poll - I am seeking the facts. Hopefully the facts will shed a little better insight then blow hard responses.

Being able to look at anything that would lay out the number of and types of cart accidents on the MMPs including time of day, location of the icident, and any other parameters.
Then a reasonable assessment of whether side striping would have affected the outcome.

Absent some sort of presentation, the subject is emotional, political or simply predjudced/opinion driven. Which is fine as long as the opposing views are respected as well.

[tomwed]

Being able to look at anything that would lay out the number of and types of cart accidents on the MMPs including time of day, location of the icident, and any other parameters.
Then a reasonable assessment of whether side striping would have affected the outcome.

Absent some sort of presentation, the subject is emotional, political or simply predjudced/opinion driven. Which is fine as long as the opposing views are respected as well.
That's what I was asking for so many posts ago. I just wish I could express myself as clearly as you do.
My gut tells me there are many accidents. Since they do not have to be reported, they are not reported. Maybe because someone had a little too much to drink or maybe someone is embarrassed or afraid of being grounded.

[Marathon Man]

Being able to look at anything that would lay out the number of and types of cart accidents on the MMPs including time of day, location of the icident, and any other parameters.
Then a reasonable assessment of whether side striping would have affected the outcome.

Absent some sort of presentation, the subject is emotional, political or simply predjudced/opinion driven. Which is fine as long as the opposing views are respected as well.

From the Engineering Evaluation:

2011 thru 2014

340 total reported accidents
65 of the 340 occured on MMP's (all others on streets and parking lots)
12 of the 65 occured at night

The causes of the 12 were not specified in the report. The term "varied widely" was used.

[billethkid]

From the Engineering Evaluation:

2011 thru 2014

340 total reported accidents
65 of the 340 occured on MMP's (all others on streets and parking lots)
12 of the 65 occured at night

The causes of the 12 were not specified in the report. The term "varied widely" was used.

These numbers by themselves should convey the results.

65 accidents on MMP over a 3 year period.......22 per year!
12 of which were at night (reminder OVER 3 YEARS)......4 per year!

Given the hundreds of thousands of cart trips over the same 3 year period, these numbers alone should drain all the emotion out of the subject and result in the reality of the situation leaving a conclusion:

The MMPs in their as is configuration are safe!

[TheVillageChicken]

The other day, I found myself in rather dire circumstances....a scene right out of the Divine Comedy. I was a traveler in a strange land. The sky was dark and ominous with constant flashes of electricity and their accompanying crackles and sizzles. There were creatures of grotesque stature. All of them had glowing eyes and their lamentations bored directly into my soul. No wildlife or plant live could live in this sulfuric atmosphere except for coyotes and cacti. I was lost and hopeless.....doomed, and I began to make my peace in accordance with my beliefs. Then, in the distance, I saw a faint light. As my golf cart's internal combustion engine struggled on in labored breaths, while still emitting a noisy and impressive carbon footprint, the light began to stretch from the scorched landscape to the forbidding heavens and east to west as far as my weeping eyes could see. I knew there was salvation beyond this opaque barrier, but could I break through it? I squeezed my eyes shut, put a death grip on the steering wheel, and put the pedal to the metal. I whispered, repeatedly, a faint little mantra, asking my protector to shield me from any overzealous officer of the law who may be intent on writing one of those unregister vehicle tickets as told in the sagas. Suddenly, and, may I say, miraculously, a transformation of indescribable proportions as I passed effortlessly through the border. Blue skies and sunshine...moderate temperatures and humidity. Colorful birds were singing, most of them hidden away in beautiful trees in full blossom. Butterflies were abundant. I saw a rabbit conversing with a chipmunk as a gentle fawn looked on. I could hear trickling brooks and an angelic choir. I had been wrapped in a blanket of safety...I now know how Linus feels. My senses were temporarily overloaded, but slowly perspective returned and I noticed that this welcoming world had one outstanding feature...center striping. Those golden stripes, dazzling in their brilliance, were like the footprints of the Gods...beacons of comfort and hope that shown in stark contrast against the asphalt. I teared up and made a vow not to ever leave District 4 in a golf cart again except to hit the early bird special at Golden Corral...then I gave thanks to my rogue lords who gave the collective finger to the traffic engineer and the Developer's minions. All was right with my world.

[PennBF]

I find it distasteful and terrible that some posters refer to others as "blowhards"! Why is there a need for name calling and insults as opposed to opinions. It could be said the name callers are the ones who deserve the title since they tend to be pretty closed minded and not open to others having opinions if they do not agree with theirs. As the saying goes if you are unsure and petty when it comes to others then shout or call names. :mornincoffee:

[Mleeja]

Being able to look at anything that would lay out the number of and types of cart accidents on the MMPs including time of day, location of the icident, and any other parameters.
Then a reasonable assessment of whether side striping would have affected the outcome.

Absent some sort of presentation, the subject is emotional, political or simply predjudced/opinion driven. Which is fine as long as the opposing views are respected as well.

The Engineering report had a break down of the accidents, time of day, etc. What the report does not show are non-reported accidents, near missses or poor lighting conditions/areas on the MMPs. What was not done was any type of traffic study on visibility at different times of the day and conditions. It was all based on the Florida requirments for path markings, which are none, and the reported accidents.

Because there is not a complete review there is going to be a lot of emotion. We are all smart people and can regonize problems when we see them. Maybe rather than going rouge or just sweeping the whole thing under the rug, the districts should conduct a complete usage study of the MMPs.

[cableb08]

Still my question is why is it needed. You cant see the side of the path? Come on people.

If you have ever driven on the path at night or even worse during a rainstorm you might understand why some sort of striping is needed.
Also, the cost when compared to 1 life saved is well worth the expense.

[Challenger]

money spent unecessarily on inefficient or unneeded projects deprives high efficiency and necessary projects from being made. I do drive the MMPs after dark and there are a few(operative word is few) spots where some further highlighting would be helpful. i find that the few reflectors on the MMPs through a place like Turtle Mound do the job quite well. We do not need a major project throughout the community. A few relectors or reflective paint on a few centerlines will improve visibility quite adequately.

[Polar Bear]

money spent unecessarily on inefficient or unneeded projects deprives high efficiency and necessary projects from being made. I do drive the MMPs after dark and there are a few(operative word is few) spots where some further highlighting would be helpful. i find that the few reflectors on the MMPs through a place like Turtle Mound do the job quite well. We do not need a major project throughout the community. A few relectors or reflective paint on a few centerlines will improve visibility quite adequately.

Although the first sentence is a bit presumptuous...terms such as inefficient and unneeded are very subjective...I agree with the rest of your post. IMHO reflectors or some sort of striping could be used in some isolated areas, but is not really necessary system wide.

[looneycat]

money spent unecessarily on inefficient or unneeded projects deprives high efficiency and necessary projects from being made. I do drive the MMPs after dark and there are a few(operative word is few) spots where some further highlighting would be helpful. i find that the few reflectors on the MMPs through a place like Turtle Mound do the job quite well. We do not need a major project throughout the community. A few relectors or reflective paint on a few centerlines will improve visibility quite adequately.

sounds like you are agreeing, reflectors and striping DO increase safety and visibility. Why would you not want that safety on all roads. Virtually all public streets are striped...I guess those engineers who checked out the Villages don't think 50,000 golf carts require the safety they afford people on public streets. That's all that needs to be said...you either care about the safety of others or you don't....no further replies are needed.

[Mleeja]

money spent unecessarily on inefficient or unneeded projects deprives high efficiency and necessary projects from being made. I do drive the MMPs after dark and there are a few(operative word is few) spots where some further highlighting would be helpful. i find that the few reflectors on the MMPs through a place like Turtle Mound do the job quite well. We do not need a major project throughout the community. A few relectors or reflective paint on a few centerlines will improve visibility quite adequately.

Maybe in the southern portions of the. Buena Vista trail the landscaping is such that the trail is not darkened. Up north here, I have taken to driving the street that runs parallel to Buena Vista when it is dark. The street is much better lit and straigther. This is called taking personal responsibiliy....

[JiminTV]

How well can you see the path at night in the rain with an oncoming golf cart's lights reflecting on your windshield? To me, this is an important safety issue that is well worth the $1-2 per household per year.

[Challenger]

sounds like you are agreeing, reflectors and striping DO increase safety and visibility. Why would you not want that safety on all roads. Virtually all public streets are striped...I guess those engineers who checked out the Villages don't think 50,000 golf carts require the safety they afford people on public streets. That's all that needs to be said...you either care about the safety of others or you don't....no further replies are needed.

a mis characterization of my comments-- completely.

[Challenger]

Although the first sentence is a bit presumptuous...terms such as inefficient and unneeded are very subjective...I agree with the rest of your post. IMHO reflectors or some sort of striping could be used in some isolated areas, but is not really necessary system wide.

Money is a scarce commodity The adoption of a project with monetary costs does limit other activities unless there is a bottomless pot -somewhere, as in taxpayers pockets(residents)

[Polar Bear]

Money is a scarce commodity The adoption of a project with monetary costs does limit other activities unless there is a bottomless pot -somewhere, as in taxpayers pockets(residents)

Not sure I see your point. Don't get me wrong...I totally agree with your statement. But it's true for all projects in any budget, not just trail striping.

[outlaw]

Money is a scarce commodity The adoption of a project with monetary costs does limit other activities unless there is a bottomless pot -somewhere, as in taxpayers pockets(residents)

What happened to "it's not about the money, it's the principal"?

[Mleeja]

What happened to "it's not about the money, it's the principal"?

It has always been about the money. Striping was a good idea until the cost was published.

[twoplanekid]

Isn't this a great opportunity for the rest of the villages to see if the number of accidents go down?

If it doesn't improve safety, which admittedly is hard to measure, close calls and all than maybe the rest of the districts could help chip in to defray the cost. That may set up a president. So the next time an idea comes along one district could try it out and the other districts would help defray the cost if it fails or add the same service if it doesn't.

This strikes me as an opportunity to try new ideas out.


Rather than stripping all districts, let District 8 stripe as an experiment. As people travel through this district on the multi-modal trails, let Villagers see for themselves if stripping the trails does help at night. As no one else in the world has the data or experience to help with this issue, we may be required to try it here on a small scale. Spend a little to save a lot or try it as you may grow to like it.

[Challenger]

What happened to "it's not about the money, it's the principal"?

In some cases, the money is the principle. Not necessarily so when someone commits a criminal act.

This case has much to do with efficient use of scarce resources (money)

[biker1]

I suspect it will be difficult/impossible to collect data that will allow for the testing of the hypothesis that striping improves safety, to a statistically significant degree. In the absence of real data, typically you would want to go with the opinion of an expert. His opinion was not to stripe. South of 466A, there are some blind curves with embedded reflectors in the middle of the MMP. They serve double duty as they "thump" if you go over them with your tires. These seem like a good idea.

Rather than stripping all districts, let District 8 stripe as an experiment. As people travel through this district on the multi-modal trails, let Villagers see for themselves if stripping the trails does help at night. As no one else in the world has the data or experience to help with this issue, we may be required to try it here on a small scale. Spend a little to save a lot or try it as you may grow to like it.

[pgc4340]

Some one please tell me why the side stripping of the golf cart paths have to be done. Thats an expence that is a waste of money.

I would also like to know the same thing. If people really need a stripe because they can't see well at night, in spite of having headlights, then why not a stripe down the middle dividing lanes. It would serve a dual purpose of ensuring people stay on their own side of the path, and give them a guide to follow so they don't run off the road. The number of people who drive down the middle of the path as if it is a one way street is ridiculous.

[outlaw]

In some cases, the money is the principle. Not necessarily so when someone commits a criminal act.

This case has much to do with efficient use of scarce resources (money)

I agree money is principal.:smiley:

[rustyp]

I would be interested in seeing the yes / no vote summation of all the districts sorted by resident elected representatives Vs developer appointed representatives.

Does anyone know where to get this data? It may be a clue as to what the silent majority thinks - either way. This is intended to be a constructive request - please let's not get into who is more qualified to make the decision.

[graciegirl]

Rather than stripping all districts, let District 8 stripe as an experiment. As people travel through this district on the multi-modal trails, let Villagers see for themselves if stripping the trails does help at night. As no one else in the world has the data or experience to help with this issue, we may be required to try it here on a small scale. Spend a little to save a lot or try it as you may grow to like it.





"WE" do not make decisions here. Thank Goodness. Every day someone would have a wonderful idea to change things until the prices rise and the essence of what it is now is lost.

Did you read the report that said that 12 accidents occurred at night under circumstances that "varied widely"? Most of us Girl Scouts are pretty sure of the "wide variations" of many of those accidents at night or could make a pretty good guess.

[outlaw]

I suspect it will be difficult/impossible to collect data that will allow for the testing of the hypothesis that striping improves safety, to a statistically significant degree. In the absence of real data, typically you would want to go with the opinion of an expert. His opinion was not to stripe. South of 466A, there are some blind curves with embedded reflectors in the middle of the MMP. They serve double duty as they "thump" if you go over them with your tires. These seem like a good idea.

I'm not so sure there is a MMP expert in the whole country. In this case, I would compare the TV MMPs with 50,000 golf carts worth of traffic to safety measures commonly used for roads such as stripes, stop/yield signs, etc. As a retired engineer, I have conducted a study of the CCD4 center stripe and have concluded it adds some level of safety. Where do I send my invoice?

[outlaw]

"WE" do not make decisions here. Thank Goodness. Every day someone would have a wonderful idea to change things until the prices rise and the essence of what it is now is lost.

Our elected representatives do. Ergo the striped MMP in CCD4.

[outlaw]

If you can't drink and drive safely, stay home!

[graciegirl]

Our elected representatives do. Ergo the striped MMP in CCD4.



Do you mean 8?

[biker1]

"Expert" is relative - he is someone who knows more than others. Soliciting the advice of an expert and then deciding not to follow it is hard to fathom. Feel free to send your invoice to anyone who will pay it.

I'm not so sure there is a MMP expert in the whole country. In this case, I would compare the TV MMPs with 50,000 golf carts worth of traffic to safety measures commonly used for roads such as stripes, stop/yield signs, etc. As a retired engineer, I have conducted a study of the CCD4 center stripe and have concluded it adds some level of safety. Where do I send my invoice?

[rustyp]

Rather than stripping all districts, let District 8 stripe as an experiment. As people travel through this district on the multi-modal trails, let Villagers see for themselves if stripping the trails does help at night. As no one else in the world has the data or experience to help with this issue, we may be required to try it here on a small scale. Spend a little to save a lot or try it as you may grow to like it.

District 4 already did it last year. Take a ride up on the cart paths by Nancy Lopez golf course and see. The district did the centerline stripe. I am not down in The Villages at the moment and I can't remember if they also striped the sides. As mentioned here recently darkness, rain, and tinted windshields are a perfect storm. My own opinion is side striping may be the way to go. It's about be able to see where the path is especially when being blinded by an oncoming cart. My natural tendency is to momentarily look at the side in this situation to limit the blinding. Also I would suspect the side stripes would last longer - less tire contact then the centerline stripe.

[Polar Bear]

I'm not so sure there is a MMP expert in the whole country...
You got that right, outlaw. I've mentioned that several times before. The only thing I disagree with in your statement is the "not so sure" part. I'm sure.

Compared to roadways and other ubiquitous forms of transportation, there are no experts on MMP's. Transportation engineers, which I am one, may study MMP's and have some knowledge others do not, but MMP's have not been around long enough or in enough quantity for experts to exist. There is simply not enough history, experience or data.

[twoplanekid]

I suspect it will be difficult/impossible to collect data that will allow for the testing of the hypothesis that striping improves safety, to a statistically significant degree. In the absence of real data, typically you would want to go with the opinion of an expert. His opinion was not to stripe. South of 466A, there are some blind curves with embedded reflectors in the middle of the MMP. They serve double duty as they "thump" if you go over them with your tires. These seem like a good idea.

I would agree with you except that I am not sure that this expert is an expert on golf cart multi-modal paths by this definition of “ having or showing special skill or knowledge because of what you have been taught or what you have experienced”. How many hours has this expert driven stripped multi-modal trails at night? Was this expert taught golf cart multi-modal design in school? Where is the data to back up what he is saying? I believe that data on golf cart multi-modal trail design at present is too abstract to say yes or no with any authority. So, what should we do now?

[pgc4340]

It has always been about the money. Striping was a good idea until the cost was published.

Most people living in The Villages live on a fixed income. Even though the cost would not effect my standard of living, even a minimal cost might be a problem for others. Perfectly understandable! As the years go by, retirement income does not go as far, so adding a dollar here and a dollar there to living expenses adds up.

[villagetinker]

It is interesting that in all of the discussions, I see lots of comments about money, safety, and none regarding the engineer's letter, where he commented about consistency in the golf cart lane marking, and possibility liability for NOT following the engineers study.. So my take on the situation is that with CDD4 and possibly CDD8 going rogue, they are creating a worse situation for ALL of the residents of these CDDs while providing a potentially limited safety improvement for the end users. Also, consider the situation where someone not real familiar with the golf cart paths goes from one of the MARKED areas to an UNMARKED area under less than optimal driving conditions. These locations maybe accidents waiting to happen.
I see both arguements, for and against striping, and I have no personal opinion, however, I am very concerned about the possibility of INCONSISTANT markings.
I hope all of the parties can get together and agree to a consistent solution for all of the paths.
Please do not shoot the messenger, thank you.

[biker1]

Again, "expert" is a relative term; someone who knows more than others. You presumably want to make decisions based on input from people who have a greater probability of being correct, in the absence of definitive data. This is actually pretty common; being asked to render an opinion when definitive information is lacking. Otherwise, you may as well just flip a coin. Presumably, the CDDs had some reasons to consider that the engineering firm they retained possessed some level of expertise in this area. The real question you should be asking is "why did the rogue CDDs decide that they know more than the engineering firm they retained"?

I would agree with you except that I am not sure that this expert is an expert on golf cart multi-modal paths by this definition of “ having or showing special skill or knowledge because of what you have been taught or what you have experienced”. How many hours has this expert driven stripped multi-modal trails at night? Was this expert taught golf cart multi-modal design in school? Where is the data to back up what he is saying? I believe that data on golf cart multi-modal trail design at present is too abstract to say yes or no with any authority. So, what should we do now?

[outlaw]

Do you mean 8?

4 - center striped for months, now. Try it, you'll like it.

[outlaw]

It is interesting that in all of the discussions, I see lots of comments about money, safety, and none regarding the engineer's letter, where he commented about consistency in the golf cart lane marking, and possibility liability for NOT following the engineers study.. So my take on the situation is that with CDD4 and possibly CDD8 going rogue, they are creating a worse situation for ALL of the residents of these CDDs while providing a potentially limited safety improvement for the end users. Also, consider the situation where someone not real familiar with the golf cart paths goes from one of the MARKED areas to an UNMARKED area under less than optimal driving conditions. These locations maybe accidents waiting to happen.
I see both arguements, for and against striping, and I have no personal opinion, however, I am very concerned about the possibility of INCONSISTANT markings.
I hope all of the parties can get together and agree to a consistent solution for all of the paths.
Please do not shoot the messenger, thank you.

I don't put much credence in this engineer's conclusion. I believe he was giving the customer the answer they were looking for. Before attacking me, this is just my feeling. I personally witnessed many studies written to support what the customer was looking for. To me, it is common sense to safely drive on a cart path with a striped line down the middle. If someone is so confused then they should not be driving, period.

[outlaw]

District 4 already did it last year. Take a ride up on the cart paths by Nancy Lopez golf course and see. The district did the centerline stripe. I am not down in The Villages at the moment and I can't remember if they also striped the sides. As mentioned here recently darkness, rain, and tinted windshields are a perfect storm. My own opinion is side striping may be the way to go. It's about be able to see where the path is especially when being blinded by an oncoming cart. My natural tendency is to momentarily look at the side in this situation to limit the blinding. Also I would suspect the side stripes would last longer - less tire contact then the centerline stripe.

No side stripes on CCD4 MMPs. Just centerline. I like it.

[biker1]

So now you are accusing the engineer of unprofessional behavior? What is your basis for these accusations? Probably none. You should be careful about slandering someone.

I don't put much credence in this engineer's conclusion. I believe he was giving the customer the answer they were looking for. Before attacking me, this is just my feeling. I personally witnessed many studies written to support what the customer was looking for. To me, it is common sense to safely drive on a cart path with a striped line down the middle. If someone is so confused then they should not be driving, period.

[billethkid]

and then maybe the accident rate will go down from 12 every 3 years to something less!! :smiley:

[twoplanekid]

Almost everything we have discussed on this forum is being considered by my District 10 supervisors as recorded in the minutes of their September 10th meeting starting on page 8 of the PDF -> VCDD Meetings/Agendas (http://districtgov.org/yourdistrict/meetings.aspx?district=10&code=12)

[Mleeja]

So now you are accusing the engineer of unprofessional behavior? What is your basis for these accusations? Probably none. You should be careful about slandering someone.


I don't believe the engineering company was unprofessional and no one is making this accusation. They just looked a a very narrow set of data, Reported accidents and Florida statuorty requirements. This may be all they were reqested to do by the PWAC. They said striping was not warrented by the State of Florida and the accident data did not support side striping. They also said if The Villages chose to do side striping how it should be done and the materials.

I am a proponent of striping, but I agree it should be in all districts. I am bothered seeing district 8 going rogue. It is not making the situation any better.

I would like to see a more comprehensive traffic study conducted on the MMPs by a different firm specializing in traffic flow surveys. Kindof like a second doctor's opinion.

[twoplanekid]

I don't believe the engineering company was unprofessional and no one is making this accusation. They just looked a a very narrow set of data, Reported accidents and Florida statuorty requirements. This may be all they were reqested to do by the PWAC. They said striping was not warrented by the State of Florida and the accident data did not support side striping. They also said if The Villages chose to do side striping how it should be done and the materials.

I am a proponent of striping, but I agree it should be in all districts. I am bothered seeing district 8 going rogue. It is not making the situation any better.

I would like to see a more comprehensive traffic study conducted on the MMPs by a different firm specializing in traffic flow surveys. Kindof like a second doctor's opinion.

As found of the District gov web site and I quote:

Richard Busche of Kimley-Horn & Associates clarified that as a Professional Engineer, his final recommendation included within the design study is that edge line markings are not warranted and are not recommended and it is his recommendation that the edge lines striping not be installed. Mr. Busche stated the reference on page 7 is stated in response to a specific option included for in the Manual of Uniform of Traffic Devices (MUTCD) but is not the final conclusion.

see Page 7 http://districtgov.org/PDFView/PDFMeeting.aspx?id=20150720pa0301

I would also like to see a more comprehensive traffic study !

[biker1]

I don't believe they acted unprofessionally either but it was suggested, without any supporting evidence, that they did. Go back a few posts and reread.

I don't believe the engineering company was unprofessional and no one is making this accusation. They just looked a a very narrow set of data, Reported accidents and Florida statuorty requirements. This may be all they were reqested to do by the PWAC. They said striping was not warrented by the State of Florida and the accident data did not support side striping. They also said if The Villages chose to do side striping how it should be done and the materials.

I am a proponent of striping, but I agree it should be in all districts. I am bothered seeing district 8 going rogue. It is not making the situation any better.

I would like to see a more comprehensive traffic study conducted on the MMPs by a different firm specializing in traffic flow surveys. Kindof like a second doctor's opinion.

[golfing eagles]

I have to admit I have no experience with this issue and hence, no opinion. My golf cart is not yet built, I've driven less than 10 miles on the MMPs and probably less than 1 mile at night. Therefore , I was going to keep my big yap shut. :1rotfl: But......
I then thought of looking at the issue from a much broader perspective, not getting bogged down in engineering reports, which district did what, or how much bang for the buck would be realized from striping.
Are we a community---"America's Friendliest Hometown", or are we starting to gravitate toward the national trend of "what's good for me as an individual" or a "me first" attitude. Clearly, after 142 posts, there are those who favor and those who oppose striping. There are those that feel they can drive safely with MMPs as is, and those who would like enhanced visibility.
The question , as a community, is how far to go to accommodate those who need the extra help--literally a cost-benefit analysis. Even if you can drive without problems as is, enhanced visibility doesn't hurt you. It may, however greatly help your neighbor, even prevent injury.
There is a cost issue which runs through this thread. But we pay for plenty of "stuff" that does not directly benefit the individual. How many of us have children in the school district, yet we pay school tax. How many of us use food stamps, yet I don't believe any of us want children to starve. Certain spending is shared by all because it benefits the community as a whole, not necessarily every individual. The suggestion that someone should not drive a cart if they are having visibility issues that could be improved is absurd. Just because I can drive I-95 at 100 mph doesn't mean everyone who can't should be home watching TV.
I also have the sense that if some great philanthropist came along to pay for any enhancement to MMPs we want, there would be side and center striping, with reflectors, bright streetlights, computer lane departure and front collision alarms, electronic direction and traffic flow signs. Who would object?
I would hate to see the following news interview with a new widow
Interviewer: What happened here?
Widow: My husband was driving but couldn't see the path well---he drove us into a ditch and was killed. I wish they would have striped the paths

How often have we all seen nothing done until tragedy strikes?

I'm sure my position will "evolve" with more experience. For now please forgive my uncharacteristic foray into the world of somewhat liberal thought. I will now retreat back to republican politics and fox news

[Xavier]

I have to admit I have no experience with this issue and hence, no opinion. My golf cart is not yet built, I've driven less than 10 miles on the MMPs and probably less than 1 mile at night. Therefore , I was going to keep my big yap shut. :1rotfl: But......
I then thought of looking at the issue from a much broader perspective, not getting bogged down in engineering reports, which district did what, or how much bang for the buck would be realized from striping.
Are we a community---"America's Friendliest Hometown", or are we starting to gravitate toward the national trend of "what's good for me as an individual" or a "me first" attitude. Clearly, after 142 posts, there are those who favor and those who oppose striping. There are those that feel they can drive safely with MMPs as is, and those who would like enhanced visibility.
The question , as a community, is how far to go to accommodate those who need the extra help--literally a cost-benefit analysis. Even if you can drive without problems as is, enhanced visibility doesn't hurt you. It may, however greatly help your neighbor, even prevent injury.
There is a cost issue which runs through this thread. But we pay for plenty of "stuff" that does not directly benefit the individual. How many of us have children in the school district, yet we pay school tax. How many of us use food stamps, yet I don't believe any of us want children to starve. Certain spending is shared by all because it benefits the community as a whole, not necessarily every individual. The suggestion that someone should not drive a cart if they are having visibility issues that could be improved is absurd. Just because I can drive I-95 at 100 mph doesn't mean everyone who can't should be home watching TV.
I also have the sense that if some great philanthropist came along to pay for any enhancement to MMPs we want, there would be side and center striping, with reflectors, bright streetlights, computer lane departure and front collision alarms, electronic direction and traffic flow signs. Who would object?
I would hate to see the following news interview with a new widow
Interviewer: What happened here?
Widow: My husband was driving but couldn't see the path well---he drove us into a ditch and was killed. I wish they would have striped the paths

How often have we all seen nothing done until tragedy strikes?

I'm sure my position will "evolve" with more experience. For now please forgive my uncharacteristic foray into the world of somewhat liberal thought. I will now retreat back to republican politics and fox news

I like this guy! Well said. I am a little disappointed that you state that you'll now retreat back to ....

Unfortunately, logic, caring and good ole common sense are sometimes hard to find.

Xavier

[Walter123]

This is one of the top ten stupid ideas discussed on this site. What good would side stripping really do? Isn't it enough that if your tires hit the grass along side the path you know you're off the path? You're not going to fall of the edge of the earth. Some say that an MMP is the same as a highway which have stripping. Highways also have guard rails. Should we also install guard rails? If we did then we could put side bumpers on our carts and we could bounce off the rails. I would not be opposed to center striping nut side striping is a waste of time and money. Pay attention to your driving instead of depending on a white stripe to keep you safe. :confused:

[tomwed]

What about those little speed bump reflectors? They never need servicing.

And if you drift because you are on the cell phone [big mistake], falling asleep [big mistake], in a rainstorm [act of God], very dark outside and the driver has poor vision [fact of life], daydreaming [little mistake], drank too much[big mistake], overtaking a bicycle [no harm done] ----you would get a little reminder [thump,thump,thump].

[OCsun]

I have to admit I have no experience with this issue and hence, no opinion. My golf cart is not yet built, I've driven less than 10 miles on the MMPs and probably less than 1 mile at night. Therefore , I was going to keep my big yap shut. :1rotfl: But......
I then thought of looking at the issue from a much broader perspective, not getting bogged down in engineering reports, which district did what, or how much bang for the buck would be realized from striping.
Are we a community---"America's Friendliest Hometown", or are we starting to gravitate toward the national trend of "what's good for me as an individual" or a "me first" attitude. Clearly, after 142 posts, there are those who favor and those who oppose striping. There are those that feel they can drive safely with MMPs as is, and those who would like enhanced visibility.
The question , as a community, is how far to go to accommodate those who need the extra help--literally a cost-benefit analysis. Even if you can drive without problems as is, enhanced visibility doesn't hurt you. It may, however greatly help your neighbor, even prevent injury.
There is a cost issue which runs through this thread. But we pay for plenty of "stuff" that does not directly benefit the individual. How many of us have children in the school district, yet we pay school tax. How many of us use food stamps, yet I don't believe any of us want children to starve. Certain spending is shared by all because it benefits the community as a whole, not necessarily every individual. The suggestion that someone should not drive a cart if they are having visibility issues that could be improved is absurd. Just because I can drive I-95 at 100 mph doesn't mean everyone who can't should be home watching TV.
I also have the sense that if some great philanthropist came along to pay for any enhancement to MMPs we want, there would be side and center striping, with reflectors, bright streetlights, computer lane departure and front collision alarms, electronic direction and traffic flow signs. Who would object?
I would hate to see the following news interview with a new widow
Interviewer: What happened here?
Widow: My husband was driving but couldn't see the path well---he drove us into a ditch and was killed. I wish they would have striped the paths

How often have we all seen nothing done until tragedy strikes?

I'm sure my position will "evolve" with more experience. For now please forgive my uncharacteristic foray into the world of somewhat liberal thought. I will now retreat back to republican politics and fox news


:BigApplause: Well said!

[outlaw]

So now you are accusing the engineer of unprofessional behavior? What is your basis for these accusations? Probably none. You should be careful about slandering someone.

Never mind.

[bagboy]

I have to admit I have no experience with this issue and hence, no opinion. My golf cart is not yet built, I've driven less than 10 miles on the MMPs and probably less than 1 mile at night. Therefore , I was going to keep my big yap shut. :1rotfl: But......
I then thought of looking at the issue from a much broader perspective, not getting bogged down in engineering reports, which district did what, or how much bang for the buck would be realized from striping.
Are we a community---"America's Friendliest Hometown", or are we starting to gravitate toward the national trend of "what's good for me as an individual" or a "me first" attitude. Clearly, after 142 posts, there are those who favor and those who oppose striping. There are those that feel they can drive safely with MMPs as is, and those who would like enhanced visibility.
The question , as a community, is how far to go to accommodate those who need the extra help--literally a cost-benefit analysis. Even if you can drive without problems as is, enhanced visibility doesn't hurt you. It may, however greatly help your neighbor, even prevent injury.
There is a cost issue which runs through this thread. But we pay for plenty of "stuff" that does not directly benefit the individual. How many of us have children in the school district, yet we pay school tax. How many of us use food stamps, yet I don't believe any of us want children to starve. Certain spending is shared by all because it benefits the community as a whole, not necessarily every individual. The suggestion that someone should not drive a cart if they are having visibility issues that could be improved is absurd. Just because I can drive I-95 at 100 mph doesn't mean everyone who can't should be home watching TV.
I also have the sense that if some great philanthropist came along to pay for any enhancement to MMPs we want, there would be side and center striping, with reflectors, bright streetlights, computer lane departure and front collision alarms, electronic direction and traffic flow signs. Who would object?
I would hate to see the following news interview with a new widow
Interviewer: What happened here?
Widow: My husband was driving but couldn't see the path well---he drove us into a ditch and was killed. I wish they would have striped the paths

How often have we all seen nothing done until tragedy strikes?

I'm sure my position will "evolve" with more experience. For now please forgive my uncharacteristic foray into the world of somewhat liberal thought. I will now retreat back to republican politics and fox news


Your entire post seems to be all about golf cart driving on the Multi Model Paths. When you are here full time and using the MMPs, you will quickly discover that walkers, joggers, runners, bikers, trikers, elliptical riders, etc use these paths along with golf carts. And that is the point of the engineers and those with experience in transportation and public safety.
In their opinion based on their education and work experience, the MMP'S will become "less" safe for anyone using the MMPS who is not operating a golf cart. Especially with center striping, a golf cart highway mentality will be enhanced. That mentality exists already with many cart operators. In their opinion, side striping would not make the MMPs safer, especially for the above mentioned, in fact it could make travel more dangerous.
So do we want to stripe or line the paths for the benefit of a very small minority of golf cart drivers, and forsake the safety of all other users? All of the pro striping advocates opinions are based solely on their personal preference, and what they think is best for the MMPs. Not based on any research or past education or professional experience.
Relating to your past experience, would it be a good idea for a patient to get your diagnosis and course of treatment, only to go home and follow the next door neighbors recommendation who happens to be a mailman? Regardless of what happens, you'll still love being here.

[looneycat]

So now you are accusing the engineer of unprofessional behavior? What is your basis for these accusations? Probably none. You should be careful about slandering someone.

well the engineer did say the accidents aren't due to lack of striping but rather are due to us all being drunk, stupid and inattentive. not exactly a confidence builder as far as the value of the study in which they set out to prove their prior recommendations were correct.

[billethkid]

If we were talking about lowering the temperature in the pools by 10 degrees because 20 residents think it is better for ones health.

How long would it take for the majority to squash the idea?

The numbers which too many seem readily willing to ignore.......speak loudly and clearly the issue is not about improving the safety of TV residents. It is all about the wants of a few. The statistics do not support the arguments in favor of the striping. Nobody is saying these folks do not have a personal issue. But we do not operate a population on the basis of emotion and individuals.

[billethkid]

On a second note. Let's assume some how or other the powers that be (what ever and who ever that means) agree the sritping should be done.
They agree to the $300-$400,000 to do the intial job and $100,000 annual maintenance (put any number you want in here that makes you happy).

The first order of business is to find the funding. This action is not currently a line item in the budget. To move forward the powers that be have a choice of going over budget (a no no in any well run entity), raise revenue (should be a no no for most of us) or not do something else that is in the budget to allow the striping project. What are we willing to give up that is currently in the budget?

Do not be lulled into the trap of it is only pennies a day per person. This turns into hundreds of dollars increase of resident fees SOMEWHERE down the line. Hence, once again, in my opinion, the numbers just do not support doing this project.

[golfing eagles]

Your entire post seems to be all about golf cart driving on the Multi Model Paths. When you are here full time and using the MMPs, you will quickly discover that walkers, joggers, runners, bikers, trikers, elliptical riders, etc use these paths along with golf carts. And that is the point of the engineers and those with experience in transportation and public safety.
In their opinion based on their education and work experience, the MMP'S will become "less" safe for anyone using the MMPS who is not operating a golf cart. Especially with center striping, a golf cart highway mentality will be enhanced. That mentality exists already with many cart operators. In their opinion, side striping would not make the MMPs safer, especially for the above mentioned, in fact it could make travel more dangerous.
So do we want to stripe or line the paths for the benefit of a very small minority of golf cart drivers, and forsake the safety of all other users? All of the pro striping advocates opinions are based solely on their personal preference, and what they think is best for the MMPs. Not based on any research or past education or professional experience.
Relating to your past experience, would it be a good idea for a patient to get your diagnosis and course of treatment, only to go home and follow the next door neighbors recommendation who happens to be a mailman? Regardless of what happens, you'll still love being here.

I haven't seen the engineering report, and my first inclination would be to defer to the experts (quid pro quo). Was their conclusion really that golf cart drivers of average ability and eyesight who respect their obligation to share the paths with pedestrians and bikers will all of a sudden transform into reckless road hogs indiscriminately plowing into others because someone painted a center stipe to aid visibility and safety due to some new found "highway mentality"? If so, God help us when we drive our cars on public highways.
Also, I have no idea of how many are in the "very small minority" of golf cart drivers. Apparently there were enough that district 4 did it and district 8 is considering it. Yes, the district representatives may be on some sort of egomaniacal power trip following their own agenda rather than the will of their constituency, but I thought that privilege was reserved for the US Congress.
Again, with more experience, I may change my position

[biker1]

Being drunk, stupid, and inattentive is probably the cause of many car accidents. Perhaps it is also true with golf carts ;-)

well the engineer did say the accidents aren't due to lack of striping but rather are due to us all being drunk, stupid and inattentive. not exactly a confidence builder as far as the value of the study in which they set out to prove their prior recommendations were correct.

[Challenger]

On a second note. Let's assume some how or other the powers that be (what ever and who ever that means) agree the sritping should be done.
They agree to the $300-$400,000 to do the intial job and $100,000 annual maintenance (put any number you want in here that makes you happy).

The first order of business is to find the funding. This action is not currently a line item in the budget. To move forward the powers that be have a choice of going over budget (a no no in any well run entity), raise revenue (should be a no no for most of us) or not do something else that is in the budget to allow the striping project. What are we willing to give up that is currently in the budget?

Do not be lulled into the trap of it is only pennies a day per person. This turns into hundreds of dollars increase of resident fees SOMEWHERE down the line. Hence, once again, in my opinion, the numbers just do not support doing this project.

Stop!!! It is unfair to use logical, common sense analysis on this thread.:BigApplause:

[Polar Bear]

This is one of the top ten stupid ideas discussed on this site. What good would side stripping really do? Isn't it enough that if your tires hit the grass along side the path you know you're off the path? You're not going to fall of the edge of the earth. Some say that an MMP is the same as a highway which have stripping. Highways also have guard rails. Should we also install guard rails? If we did then we could put side bumpers on our carts and we could bounce off the rails. I would not be opposed to center striping nut side striping is a waste of time and money. Pay attention to your driving instead of depending on a white stripe to keep you safe. :confused:

You don't happen to work with Jeff Dunham do you?

[Mleeja]

On a second note. Let's assume some how or other the powers that be (what ever and who ever that means) agree the sritping should be done.
They agree to the $300-$400,000 to do the intial job and $100,000 annual maintenance (put any number you want in here that makes you happy).

The first order of business is to find the funding. This action is not currently a line item in the budget. To move forward the powers that be have a choice of going over budget (a no no in any well run entity), raise revenue (should be a no no for most of us) or not do something else that is in the budget to allow the striping project. What are we willing to give up that is currently in the budget?

Do not be lulled into the trap of it is only pennies a day per person. This turns into hundreds of dollars increase of resident fees SOMEWHERE down the line. Hence, once again, in my opinion, the numbers just do not support doing this project.

So it is about the money! Are you a softball player? $500,000 to upgrade softball facilities. Your ok with this? This benefits maybe 5% of the population where as striping the paths would improve safety for all Villagers. Maybe there sould be a cost benefit analysis done on all projects. What is the benefit and return on flowers in the roundabouts? As the districts make up their budgets, striping would be a continuing line item, just like flowers.

[Mleeja]

Your entire post seems to be all about golf cart driving on the Multi Model Paths. When you are here full time and using the MMPs, you will quickly discover that walkers, joggers, runners, bikers, trikers, elliptical riders, etc use these paths along with golf carts. And that is the point of the engineers and those with experience in transportation and public safety.
In their opinion based on their education and work experience, the MMP'S will become "less" safe for anyone using the MMPS who is not operating a golf cart. Especially with center striping, a golf cart highway mentality will be enhanced. That mentality exists already with many cart operators. In their opinion, side striping would not make the MMPs safer, especially for the above mentioned, in fact it could make travel more dangerous.
So do we want to stripe or line the paths for the benefit of a very small minority of golf cart drivers, and forsake the safety of all other users? All of the pro striping advocates opinions are based solely on their personal preference, and what they think is best for the MMPs. Not based on any research or past education or professional experience.
Relating to your past experience, would it be a good idea for a patient to get your diagnosis and course of treatment, only to go home and follow the next door neighbors recommendation who happens to be a mailman? Regardless of what happens, you'll still love being here.

Streets are for motorized vehicles, but there are walkers, bicycles, tricycles, etc on the streets as well. I have yet to see one complaint or objection about side stripes on the streets.

The MMPs are used mainly by golf carts. The striping, as proposed, will take up 6 inches on either side of the path. I don't see walkers, bicycles, tricycles operating this close to the edge.

I am a biker and I do not ride on the MMPs. I would much rather ride in the streets. I feel much safer.

[golfing eagles]

So it is about the money! Are you a softball player? $500,000 to upgrade softball facilities. Your ok with this? This benefits maybe 5% of the population where as striping the paths would improve safety for all Villagers. Maybe there sould be a cost benefit analysis done on all projects. What is the benefit and return on flowers in the roundabouts? As the districts make up their budgets, striping would be a continuing line item, just like flowers.

Sort of my point in my rather verbose post above. Not every expense benefits every individual in the community. But overall the goal, within financial constraints, is to provide as wide a variety of services and infrastructure to as many as feasible---kind of a community service quid pro quo---you pay for mine and I'll pay for yours.

[billethkid]

So it is about the money! Are you a softball player? $500,000 to upgrade softball facilities. Your ok with this? This benefits maybe 5% of the population where as striping the paths would improve safety for all Villagers. Maybe there sould be a cost benefit analysis done on all projects. What is the benefit and return on flowers in the roundabouts? As the districts make up their budgets, striping would be a continuing line item, just like flowers.

5% of 100,000 population is 5,000 people!

From the Engineering Evaluation:

2011 thru 2014

340 total reported accidents
65 of the 340 occured on MMP's (all others on streets and parking lots)
12 of the 65 occured at night

65 accidents on MMPs over 3 years....average 22 per year = .022%

.022% (22 MMP accidents in one year) compared to 5.0% (5000 woodshop users).

Not a good comparison.

Assuming it was passed for a moment. Yes it would become a line item in the budget. That does not change the three options for finding the funding.
>Eliminate something else that provides the funds.
>Raise the revenues i.e. fees/assessments etc. to allow the striping funding without giving up anything.
>based on priorities, like it or not; anything that affects .022% would not earn a spot in the budget....hence do nothing.

Since the striping will be either a numbers decision, one of the above must happen.
Or an emotional and or political decision neither of which changes the method of finding the funding.

We have the luxury of the developer being involved in much of what we enjoy in our Villages life style. So budgets, fees, adding projects or increasing costs are not readily apparent to us......as long as our fees stay the same....eh?


Budgeting is not a very popular subject because of the disciplines required to do it right.

Ya just cannot do everything EVERYBODY wants.

22 divided by 100,000 = .022 %

[tomwed]

If one does have a golf cart accident where is it voluntarily reported?

[golfing eagles]

5% of 100,000 population is 5,000 people!

From the Engineering Evaluation:

2011 thru 2014

340 total reported accidents
65 of the 340 occured on MMP's (all others on streets and parking lots)
12 of the 65 occured at night

65 accidents on MMPs over 3 years....average 22 per year = .022%

.022% (22 MMP accidents in one year) compared to 5.0% (5000 woodshop users).

Not a good comparison.

Assuming it was passed for a moment. Yes it would become a line item in the budget. That does not change the three options for finding the funding.
>Eliminate something else that provides the funds.
>Raise the revenues i.e. fees/assessments etc. to allow the striping funding without giving up anything.
>based on priorities, like it or not; anything that affects .022% would not earn a spot in the budget....hence do nothing.

Since the striping will be either a numbers decision, one of the above must happen.
Or an emotional and or political decision neither of which changes the method of finding the funding.

We have the luxury of the developer being involved in much of what we enjoy in our Villages life style. So budgets, fees, adding projects or increasing costs are not readily apparent to us......as long as our fees stay the same....eh?


Budgeting is not a very popular subject because of the disciplines required to do it right.

Ya just cannot do everything EVERYBODY wants.

22 divided by 100,000 = .022 %

99%+ of all citizens in the US do not need handicap access to public facilities
Less than 1% do, yet billions have been spent to accommodate these unfortunate individuals.

Is that a "good comparison"?

[billethkid]

Yes!

[billethkid]

It certainly is a better one.

[Mleeja]

5% of 100,000 population is 5,000 people!

From the Engineering Evaluation:

2011 thru 2014

340 total reported accidents
65 of the 340 occured on MMP's (all others on streets and parking lots)
12 of the 65 occured at night

65 accidents on MMPs over 3 years....average 22 per year = .022%

.022% (22 MMP accidents in one year) compared to 5.0% (5000 woodshop users).

Not a good comparison.

Assuming it was passed for a moment. Yes it would become a line item in the budget. That does not change the three options for finding the funding.
>Eliminate something else that provides the funds.
>Raise the revenues i.e. fees/assessments etc. to allow the striping funding without giving up anything.
>based on priorities, like it or not; anything that affects .022% would not earn a spot in the budget....hence do nothing.

Since the striping will be either a numbers decision, one of the above must happen.
Or an emotional and or political decision neither of which changes the method of finding the funding.

We have the luxury of the developer being involved in much of what we enjoy in our Villages life style. So budgets, fees, adding projects or increasing costs are not readily apparent to us......as long as our fees stay the same....eh?


Budgeting is not a very popular subject because of the disciplines required to do it right.

Ya just cannot do everything EVERYBODY wants.

22 divided by 100,000 = .022 %

To keep your comparisons consistent try dividing the cost by the number of users of the MMPS, it might be a bit higher. And based on your logic the flowers are goners.... Ya just cannot pick the numbers you want.

[billethkid]

To keep your comparisons consistent try dividing the cost by the number of users of the MMPS, it might be a bit higher. And based on your logic the flowers are goners.... Ya just cannot pick the numbers you want.

I have only used the numbers pertaining to the subjects in discussion (excluding the flowers!).

Has/had nothing to do with what I want(ed)!

[Walter123]

To keep your comparisons consistent try dividing the cost by the number of users of the MMPS, it might be a bit higher. And based on your logic the flowers are goners.... Ya just cannot pick the numbers you want.

Flowers make sense and benefit everyone that drive through The Villages. Side striping the cart paths only benefits those that probably shouldn't be driving anyway. Oh, and saying that side striping benefits anyone is a stretch. IMHO

[TheVillageChicken]

Here is the way I think the guys with the purse strings look at it. If they spend the money, the pro-stripers will pipe down and the anti-stripers will eventually forget the issue ever existed. If they don't spend the money, the pro-stripers will never let this die and will continue to be a vocal minority pain-in-the-ass hindering the progress on other important issues such as who to name the next rec center after.

[JoMar]

What is the record number of posts on any thread? Are we trying to beat it?

[virgind]

So Mr Chicken I guess the minority rules. Just like our government. (not meant to be political)

[Chi-Town]

What is the record number of posts on any thread? Are we trying to beat it?
Don't know the record number but the coyote thread has a narrow lead over the striping.

[Mleeja]

What is the record number of posts on any thread? Are we trying to beat it?

Not even close. Go look at the threads on the tree cutting.....

[Mleeja]

So Mr Chicken I guess the minority rules. Just like our government. (not meant to be political)

The number of posters have seemed to be split fairly evenly. The meetings
I have attended on this topic the pro and cons were failry even. A survey conducted by the POA showed that a majority of the respondents supported some type of striping. For all the "against" folks, don't quote the poll conduceted by the on-line news source. Any poll where you can vote multiple times is not valid. The majority of the objectors seem to be concerned about cost.

Just a purely personal opinion, if the POA did not support striping it would have been a done deal by the districts....

[Polar Bear]

..Side striping the cart paths only benefits those that probably shouldn't be driving anyway...

Never ceases to amaze me.

[dbussone]

So it is about the money! Are you a softball player? $500,000 to upgrade softball facilities. Your ok with this? This benefits maybe 5% of the population where as striping the paths would improve safety for all Villagers. Maybe there sould be a cost benefit analysis done on all projects. What is the benefit and return on flowers in the roundabouts? As the districts make up their budgets, striping would be a continuing line item, just like flowers.


Why would you do a cost/benefit analysis on a project that has been dismissed by professional consultants whom we have already paid to provide a recommendation? Because some may not like their recommendation does not negate it's appropriateness.

[Mleeja]

Why would you do a cost/benefit analysis on a project that has been dismissed by professional consultants whom we have already paid to provide a recommendation? Because some may not like their recommendation does not negate it's appropriateness.

My point in responding to the OP that if limited funds determine which projects get approved then a cost/ benefit analysis should be done on all projects, even the planting of flowers.

[dbussone]

My point in responding to the OP that if limited funds determine which projects get approved then a cost/ benefit analysis should be done on all projects, even the planting of flowers.


While I generally concur with that concept, well done cost/benefit studies also cost money to complete.

[Mleeja]

While I generally concur with that concept, well done cost/benefit studies also cost money to complete.

As well as a determined hurdle rate and a payback period. However we are not dealing with a commercial enterprise, but a quasi governmental unit and unfortunately, the same rules do not apply. Now back to bashing each other over striping....:boxing2: :)

[rogerz]

Still my question is why is it needed. You cant see the side of the path? Come on people.

Darkness and/or rain creates a visibility issue on curving multi modal path. Oncoming auto headlights adds to problem in some stretches causing golf cart driver to avert eyes. Ability to see something (side stripe, center stripe, reflectors,...), anything that provides a reference point would be useful. Stretch of Buena Vista south of Belvedere is particularly unsafe. Darkness comes early most of year and rain is not infrequent. My eyesight is fine but problem is real.

[dbussone]

As well as a determined hurdle rate and a payback period. However we are not dealing with a commercial enterprise, but a quasi governmental unit and unfortunately, the same rules do not apply. Now back to bashing each other over striping....:boxing2: :)


Well done!

[billethkid]

Darkness and/or rain creates a visibility issue on curving multi modal path. Oncoming auto headlights adds to problem in some stretches causing golf cart driver to avert eyes. Ability to see something (side stripe, center stripe, reflectors,...), anything that provides a reference point would be useful. Stretch of Buena Vista south of Belvedere is particularly unsafe. Darkness comes early most of year and rain is not infrequent. My eyesight is fine but problem is real.

from the study......65 MMP accidents over a 3 year period!

[Challenger]

from the study......65 MMP accidents over a 3 year period!

Only 12 at night!!

[virgind]

There comes a point where we should either drive our cars at night or dont drive at night or get new head lights on your cart. One of the above.

[scot_atc]

My impression of the majority of folks I've met in TV is that most would bend over backward to help each other out. There appears to be quite a few on TOTV that wouldn't reach into their coin purse for a nickel if there was no direct benefit for them. I hope you are the minority.

[tomwed]

from the study......65 MMP accidents over a 3 year period!
Do you believe that is accurate?
It doesn't make sense.

[Callaway Guy]

Only 12 at night!!

Do you, or anyone, know what the cause of those 12 carts accidents at night were attributed to?

[rogerz]

Check engineer study- they chose poor data. Time of year used was summer but they "adjusted" for snowbird season... Time of day was mostly daytime since they used summer data..gets dark earlier in winter. Percentage also based on total number rather a "rate of accidents" during darkness hours vs daytime. Also they gave their opinion "prior to" conducting their study. They were paid $6500 to tell what they already told us for free!!! Tell me what's up with that?

[rogerz]

No it doesn't. Hope this picture is getting clearer for folks!

[rogerz]

There comes a point where we should either drive our cars at night or dont drive at night or get new head lights on your cart. One of the above.
If we use that logic then we shouldn't have any striping on automobile roads...we should do away with lighting also.... That argument full of holes.

[rogerz]

Excellent comments... Let's focus on what can improve safety (for all MMP users) instead using opportunity to stake out positions.

[Walter123]

If we use that logic then we shouldn't have any striping on automobile roads...we should do away with lighting also.... That argument full of holes.

Another ridiculous comparison between 20 mph golf carts and 70 mph cars.

[outlaw]

Another ridiculous comparison between 20 mph golf carts and 70 mph cars.

70 mph cars on BV? Hmmm.

[PennBF]

There is a company who sells small lights for the front of the golf cart and also small lights on the side. The side lights work well in lighting up the curbs and also in the tunnels. These are excellent in helping when driving at night. With the headlights and side lights (where you step into the cart) the curbs are pretty lit to help at night. They are not cheap but if you have a real concern driving at night these are a good way to off set some of that worry?:bowdown:

[outlaw]

Check engineer study- they chose poor data. Time of year used was summer but they "adjusted" for snowbird season... Time of day was mostly daytime since they used summer data..gets dark earlier in winter. Percentage also based on total number rather a "rate of accidents" during darkness hours vs daytime. Also they gave their opinion "prior to" conducting their study. They were paid $6500 to tell what they already told us for free!!! Tell me what's up with that?

You hit the nail on the head. But get ready to be attacked and accused of slander for calling a spade a spade.

[Walter123]

70 mph cars on BV? Hmmm.

Who said anything about BV? Guess you "need" striping too.

[Mleeja]

I get a chuckle out of the comments that if you cannot see the MMPs, then drive your car. What is on the stretts? lane makings, side stiping, and better lighting. All the things we are asking for the MMPs. You can't drive your car to the 7:02 tee time. You can't drive your car to the dog parks in the evenings, you can't drive you car if have started to a square in your cart on a bright sunny day and the rain moves in.

Comments like "drive your car if you can't see" are selfish.

[graciegirl]

Who said anything about BV? Guess you "need" striping too.



I have paint.

[asianthree]

We just got an email from our neighborhood. I did not realize that the thermal plastic striping was 4 inches wide with a lip, and would be installed 6 inches from the edge of the path. That means that we will lose 20 inches of path. So all those guys stick your knee out are going to be jousting knees, and our bound to collide with the loss of 20 inches. Since this is just an email from my neighborhood I cannot substantiate whether this is correct but thought I would pass it along

[billethkid]

:popcorn:

:popcorn:

[rogerz]

Another ridiculous comparison between 20 mph golf carts and 70 mph cars.
70mph on Morse or Buena Vista or Stillwateror Odell or ...??
Think about that

[Mleeja]

We just got an email from our neighborhood. I did not realize that the thermal plastic striping was 4 inches wide with a lip, and would be installed 6 inches from the edge of the path. That means that we will lose 20 inches of path. So all those guys stick your knee out are going to be jousting knees, and our bound to collide with the loss of 20 inches. Since this is just an email from my neighborhood I cannot substantiate whether this is correct but thought I would pass it along

The email your received may be incorrect. The stripe, painted or thermoplastic will be four inches wide. It would be placed two inches from the edge of the MMP. This will take up 6 inches on either side. If your are concerned, please review the engineering report. It gives a detailed placement of the stripe. Also, everyone please note there will be edge striping in areas where the path is divided.

[graciegirl]

The email your received may be incorrect. The stripe, painted or thermoplastic will be four inches wide. It would be placed two inches from the edge of the MMP. This will take up 6 inches on either side. If your are concerned, please review the engineering report. It gives a detailed placement of the stripe. Also, everyone please note there will be edge striping in areas where the path is divided.



I so hate to debate you Mleeja, because I agree with almost everything you post.


But I think that even if we were striped and lighted like midday, that we would still have about the same amount of accidents due to lack of driving skills, loss of vision, and ignoring good driving rules. Many people move here or visit here and have never driven a car and drive a golf cart. Many people drive with a snootfull. Many people have problems with uncontrolled anger and believe stop signs are just a suggestion. I have been stopped at a stop sign and have had another golf cart go around me. I will not mention the team insignia on his cart because I really made people mad the last time I did. BUT here's a hint. It is the state that has the most accidents.

I remember being astonished when I first moved here and read derision toward people who stopped at stop signs from someone who I really respected. I felt like an old stupid fart.

I simply do not drive my golf cart during the high season if I can help it. I drive it to play golf. period. And THAT of course is necessary.

[morriewayne]

side striping for safety

[Retiring]

Graciegirl, bad drivers are everywhere. However, there seems to be more in FL than elsewhere for a reason. I will have to tip toe lightly here, but it may be due to advanced age. I went to college in Daytona Beach and had a motorcycle for the occasional fun ride. My primary transportation was a car but the enjoyment of riding A1A to St. Augustine on a sunny Sunday morning, with the sun rising and few on the road was something truly special.

I may have been 20 but I rode that bike “like a little old lady,” yet I still used up 8 of my 9 lives. I could be at a stop light, on the left side of the lane so I’m directly in front of the driver’s vision and they still hit you. They come out and say I didn’t see you. Really??? I’ve been sitting right in front of you for the last 2 mins in a big red gold wing size bike and you didn’t see me? Yes, that happens more often than you think. The only thing all these people had in common, age.

I just had a birthday (54) so I’m quickly on my way to being one of those people. I pray I have enough self-awareness to know when to sell the car but I doubt it. As the population of TV gets older, you’ll see more driving issues.

[Topspinmo]

Some where over the rainbow! Why not just paint the GC paths with glow in the dark yellow! We would just follow the yellow brick road to Lala land. "somewhere over the rainbow way up high -- there's land that I heard of once in lullaby". :pray:

[rogerz]

I so hate to debate you Mleeja, because I agree with almost everything you post.


But I think that even if we were striped and lighted like midday, that we would still have about the same amount of accidents due to lack of driving skills, loss of vision, and ignoring good driving rules. Many people move here or visit here and have never driven a car and drive a golf cart. Many people drive with a snootfull. Many people have problems with uncontrolled anger and believe stop signs are just a suggestion. I have been stopped at a stop sign and have had another golf cart go around me. I will not mention the team insignia on his cart because I really made people mad the last time I did. BUT here's a hint. It is the state that has the most accidents.

I remember being astonished when I first moved here and read derision toward people who stopped at stop signs from someone who I really respected. I felt like an old stupid fart.

I simply do not drive my golf cart during the high season if I can help it. I drive it to play golf. period. And THAT of course is necessary.
Apples and oranges! Will always be drivers of all types on our roads. Suggesting that we should not make safety improvements is a poor position to take.

[billethkid]

Apples and oranges! Will always be drivers of all types on our roads. Suggesting that we should not make safety improvements is a poor position to take.

What if the safety improvements have been deemd not neccessary based on engineering reports and accident data over the last few years??

[rogerz]

What if the safety improvements have been deemd not neccessary based on engineering reports and accident data over the last few years??
You haven't actually read the report then. See my earlier post re its faulty data shortcomings. Also know that engineer expressed opposition prior to study, so then we paid him $6500 to conduct a study! Guess what they came up with.

[goodtimesintv]

What if the safety improvements have been deemd not neccessary based on engineering reports and accident data over the last few years??

Engineering reports and accident data that actually gets recorded via police/accident reports mean absolutely nothing compared to actual experience of cart drivers who relate their experiences here.

There are hundreds or even thousands of near-misses in which drivers come up to a sharp curve in the multi-modal path in the dark, and there is no illuminated marking on the shoulder of the path. One that comes to mind is (or was?) on northbound Buena Vista, approaching Stillwater. There are also some north of Spanish Springs, going toward and onto Camino Real multi-modal path.

These incidents of running off the road, or running off the side and hitting something not worthy of a police or insurance report ARE worth it to guard against it with safety lines on the shoulder of the paths. Accidentally running off the pavement can cause a rollover and/or ejection of driver/passenger.

Near misses because of darkness have happened to us and we are under 60 and we are not vision impaired, and we haven't been drunk since college decades ago.

I think the whole thing here on this board is too many "experts" by way of their self-designated "seniority". Just because you (non-specific you) have done something a long time (like ruling the roost here) doesn't make the opinion or proclamation more knowing than others who opine based on their own experiences.

[graciegirl]

....

[billethkid]

You haven't actually read the report then. See my earlier post re its faulty data shortcomings. Also know that engineer expressed opposition prior to study, so then we paid him $6500 to conduct a study! Guess what they came up with.

As measured or documented by who, what?

[Barefoot]

Let's focus on what can improve safety (for all MMP users) instead using opportunity to stake out positions.

Suggesting that we should not make safety improvements is a poor position to take.

:confused:

[Marathon Man]

Check engineer study- they chose poor data. Time of year used was summer but they "adjusted" for snowbird season... Time of day was mostly daytime since they used summer data..gets dark earlier in winter. Percentage also based on total number rather a "rate of accidents" during darkness hours vs daytime. Also they gave their opinion "prior to" conducting their study. They were paid $6500 to tell what they already told us for free!!! Tell me what's up with that?

Could you please indicate where the report indicates that only summer data was used? I would like to read that. Thanks.

[Polar Bear]

///

[asianthree]

The email your received may be incorrect. The stripe, painted or thermoplastic will be four inches wide. It would be placed two inches from the edge of the MMP. This will take up 6 inches on either side. If your are concerned, please review the engineering report. It gives a detailed placement of the stripe. Also, everyone please note there will be edge striping in areas where the path is divided.
I posted that my statement was here say email. Could care less about the engineering report....You missed the joke about the guy who can't ride in the cart without their knee hanging out. So whatever the inches it changes the path, your knee needs to be in your cart. ....................................So your reaction to my post, is you didn't get it.

[twoplanekid]

Could you please indicate where the report indicates that only summer data was used? I would like to read that. Thanks.

Janet Tutt stated that data collected would be adjusted as the study would be conducted this summer. However, the only data used in this so called study was historical crash information obtained from the Villages Public Safety Department from the years 2011 through 2014.

See the following for the study/report from Kimley Horn ->

http://www.districtgov.org/PDFView/PDFMeeting.aspx?id=20150706pa0201

[tomwed]

What do we know:
there are reported accidents

there are so few reported accidents that making a change is unwarranted according to the engineering report

elected officials make the decision on striping

if agreed it becomes a RFP [line item]

if i understand it correctly the extra estimated cost amounts to less than a dollar per villager

What we don't know:
the number unreported accidents there are----not reporting an accident is not a crime

how many people will feel safe with the extra visibility of lines at night or during a storm

how many people for whatever reason use the golf cart as there only means of transportation

Yesterday I played in the men's tournament at Turtle Mound. A police car was hiding in the lot watching golf cart and parking lot car traffic. Everyone spread the word as best they could of their presence. I guess that's a more effective, more expensive solution.

In my opinion forget the stripes. Get those little speed bump reflectors and put them on each side and in the center. When you are driving a car and you hear and feel that little thump before a toll booth it's a wake up call if you are in a blinding rainstorm or a little bit sleepy.

[graciegirl]

Janet Tutt stated that data collected would be adjusted as the study would be conducted this summer. However, the only data used in this so called study was historical crash information obtained from the Villages Public Safety Department from the years 2011 through 2014.

See the following for the study/report from Kimley Horn ->

http://www.districtgov.org/PDFView/PDFMeeting.aspx?id=20150706pa0201


Quite an impressive company and it isn't their first rodeo;

Kimley-Horn (http://www.kimley-horn.com/)

[twoplanekid]

Quite an impressive company and it isn't their first rodeo;

Kimley-Horn (http://www.kimley-horn.com/)

Procter& Gamble is also an impressive company yet I am still upset about the incorrect picture on the packaging of their Gillette blades. I was hoping that Kimley-Horn would collect and analyze new data. However, I should not have expected much from a $6,500 study.

the Gillette story ->

https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/villages-florida-non-villages-discussion-93/complaint-department-gillette-potatoes-154631/

[graciegirl]

Procter& Gamble is also an impressive company yet I am still upset about the incorrect picture on the packaging of their Gillette blades. I was hoping that Kimley-Horn would collect and analyze new data. However, I should not have expected much from a $6,500 study.

the Gillette story ->

https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/villages-florida-non-villages-discussion-93/complaint-department-gillette-potatoes-154631/


I find this comparison very hard to understand.


I don't understand what you want to happen here in The Villages.

[chuckinca]

What do we know:

In my opinion forget the stripes. Get those little speed bump reflectors and put them on each side and in the center. When you are driving a car and you hear and feel that little thump before a toll booth it's a wake up call if you are in a blinding rainstorm or a little bit sleepy.

aka Botts' Dots.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Botts'_dots

[triton18]

this is a WASTE of money. Only been here 2 months, hope this doesn't keep happening, throwing money away, if you cant see the path, stay off it. We drove at night in pouring down rain and had no problem, drive slow and cautious and you wont have a problem. We are adults, lets use some sense here.

[looneycat]

I don't understand the resistance to striping. public roads are striped for safety and traffic control, who is naive enough to NOT believe that MMPs are roads? why wouldn't you want that same level of safety? people want to flaunt a flawed study that was written to back up an engineering firms original recommendation. As soon as a cost was mentioned suddenly it was a bad idea, well just remember that your car has airbags and other safety equipment and yet the roads for them are still striped...your golf cart has none of those features yet you are against at least improving the roads?? I treasure the safety of my friends and family and value their safety enough to spend ONE LOUSY DOLLAR to enhance our MMPs, if that's not worth a buck to you then go 'have a nice day'.

[rcook715]

It is STRIPING not stripping

[OCsun]

from the study......65 MMP accidents over a 3 year period!


Its also about adding improvements which make our drive easier and help us to relax while driving our golf carts. I understand that some people continue to point out that this is a want of people who could solve the problem by not driving at night. We are a golf cart community and anything that adds to our safety or makes us feel safer driving golf carts should be a priority.

Should we also stop providing chairs at evening town square events. They aren't a necessity, but they do make our life easier and more enjoyable. Should we take the stance that if people want to sit, they can bring their own chairs. How about if they can't carry a chair they should just stay home.

Just for the record, I would never suggest we eliminate chairs at the squares. Activities at the square should also be a priority of our community.

It's a fact that, entertainment and the ability get around town by golf cart, are two big reasons many of us moved to the Villages. It is also what sets us apart from other retirement communities. We don't need a study to verify this fact; the size of our great community proves it.

[billethkid]

How did anybody who used the MMP North of 466 before they were improved....SURVIVE???

How did the subject of striping never come up the many years on the north of 466 section of the MMP? If there was ever an opportunity for mishap it was there.

After putting in the much improved MMP south of 466, the planners and engineers and the developer elected to spend big $$$ to improve the MMP north of 466.

I would remind some who continue to refer to the MMP as cart paths, hence the tendency to have the priority be what the cart drivers "think" would be an improvement. How much thought has gone into how the stripping may affect walkers, bikers, etc?

The easiest, least/no cost fix is to drive safely and defensively. There is more to driving a cart on the MMP than pedal to the metal and stop.

[tomwed]

It is STRIPING not stripping
thank goodness

[CFrance]

It is STRIPING not stripping
I SO wish OP or Admin would get in there and fix the spelling.

[Polar Bear]

...The easiest, least/no cost fix is to drive safely and defensively...

Yeah. We don't need to consider any projects that might improve safety for the safe, defensive driver.

[looneycat]

It is STRIPING not stripping

we're talking about striping not stripping? well then never mind. if you are going to correct spelling here your work hasn't even started.

[kcrazorbackfan]

Ok, guys and girls, we might as well get over it and let the 3 stooges that started this in CDD 8 go ahead and finish it. The sides of the mmp's will have to be pressure washed before this happens and this will more than likely be done with reclaimed water, which is dirty water, to save money, . The sides with then be painted and in about a year or so, with the combination of the dirty surface and maintenance workers not having the time to take it slow when working around the new stripes, the stripes will look like s**t. The stripes will then have to be ground down to keep the paint from building up and making it unsafe (after all, this is about safety) and the process will start all over again.

Just remember "The CDD 3" when election time rolls around. People in America are getting tired of politicians who want to wastefully spend money and do things just because they can.

[twoplanekid]

I find this comparison very hard to understand.


I don't understand what you want to happen here in The Villages.

If we do something, let’s do it right. In my opinion, this low cost study was preformed to be able to say that we have looked at the issue. I am not accusing KImley-Horn of not doing more because we probably received what we paid them to do. We paid them very little and received very little in return.

their report -> http://www.districtgov.org/PDFView/PDFMeeting.aspx?id=20150706pa0201

Questions that I can’t find any data, only guesses are as follows:

How many and what type of carts are in use in the Villages?

The percentage of carts being used at night and the age of those users.

A traffic count of cart use on the multi-modal trails to highlight areas of high use.

I could go on and on. How can we and our leaders make accurate judgements on how to do things in the Villages as a whole when we only look to our own personal experience which may or not be the norm? Too many questions are answered by personal assessments. I am sure that the Developers have collected reams of data on us to ensure that they are offering the correct products and the best prices to current and future villagers. Where is the data on golf carts and multi-modal trails in the Villages? Data analysis isn’t everything but it is a good starting point.

[golfing eagles]

this is a WASTE of money. Only been here 2 months, hope this doesn't keep happening, throwing money away, if you cant see the path, stay off it. We drove at night in pouring down rain and had no problem, drive slow and cautious and you wont have a problem. We are adults, lets use some sense here.

Pretty harsh for those who have trouble driving at night. As I've already posted, IMHO, it is not about YOU--I'm glad you have no trouble seeing the path. It is not about ME---I can drive a dark, unmarked country road at 75 mph. It is about what is best for the community as a WHOLE. As a whole, a community spends money on lots of things that do not benefit every single individual. I don't see why a group within the community should dictate use of a resource, such as the MMPs, to another group with somewhat lesser driving ability or visual acuity.
Do you play golf? I think if you cannot consistently break 80 from the black tees, you should stay off MY golf course. Stay home and watch the golf channel. You may argue the analogy does not hold, since the pro-striping group is asking everyone to pay for an accommodation that benefits a minority. But it does hold. I, me, myself, I am perfectly happy with only one set of black tees. Yet part of my greens fee pays to maintain 5 other sets of tees that I do not personally use. But those of us who golf are a part of the "golfing community" , and as such pay to enhance the course so that it is enjoyable to as many of the golfers as possible. What about those few golfers that walk the championship courses--why should they pay to maintain cart paths?
Like I said, I do not have a dog in this hunt. I only raise the issue to make a distinction between having a sense of community versus a sense of what benefits the individual.

[mickey100]

I agree with your comments about sense of community. But there is always going to be a cutoff point financially, over spending money on a minority of community members. The numbers of people that drive carts at night are a fraction of those that drive during the day. And of those that drive at night, what percentage have trouble navigating the recreational trails? And most importantly, do we have a high accident rate attributable to poor night time visibility? I suspect not. I have not seen the engineering study, but I know of the engineering firm and it is a good one. If there is doubt about the results of the study, more accident data should be collected and the matter can be looked at in a few years down the road.

[tomwed]

How many and what type of carts are in use in the Villages?

Each household has one or two carts. I think it safe to say there are 120,000 residents x 50% to 75% = 60 to 90,000 carts.
That why I think it's ludicrous to believe there are only a handful of accidents per year as the engineers reported.

The percentage of carts being used at night and the age of those users.

Suppose you found out that it was 10%, 20%, 80% were used at night----What difference would it make.
As far as age, just about 100% of the drivers are over the age of 55.


A traffic count of cart use on the multi-modal trails to highlight areas of high use.

I don't know how to do this, since no one is recording all the accidents but knowing where accidents occur most often would be helpful. If an ambulance is called is the accident recorded? Maybe someone knows.

[biker1]

Repeatedly bringing this same point up in this forum will accomplish nothing. You should direct your concerns to the CDD representatives, if you have not done so already.

If we do something, let’s do it right. In my opinion, this low cost study was preformed to be able to say that we have looked at the issue. I am not accusing KImley-Horn of not doing more because we probably received what we paid them to do. We paid them very little and received very little in return.

Questions that I can’t find any data, only guesses are as follows:

How many and what type of carts are in use in the Villages?

The percentage of carts being used at night and the age of those users.

A traffic count of cart use on the multi-modal trails to highlight areas of high use.

I could go on and on. How can we and our leaders make accurate judgements on how to do things in the Villages as a whole when we only look to our own personal experience which may or not be the norm? Too many questions are answered by personal assessments. I am sure that the Developers have collected reams of data on us to ensure that they are offering the correct products and the best prices to current and future villagers. Where is the data on golf carts and multi-modal trails in the Villages? Data analysis isn’t everything but it is a good starting point.

[Barefoot]

Suppose you found out that it was 10%, 20%, 80% were used at night----What difference would it make.

We don't use our golf cart at night, usually just for golf and errands during the day. So I don't have a dog in this fight.
However I think with every improvement using our money, it has to be considered "What percentage of residents would benefit from this improvement?" Obviously there is a difference if only 10% benefit versus 80%.

Much as been written on this subject, stating and restating positions.
Obviously people feel strongly on this issue, over 230 posts on this thread alone.
I'm surprised no-one has initiated a TOTV Poll as to how many residents use their golf cart at night, and how many are in favor of striping. Or perhaps I missed the poll.

[twoplanekid]

Repeatedly bringing this same point up in this forum will accomplish nothing. You should direct your concerns to the CDD representatives, if you have not done so already.

I would encourage others to speak with their representatives about the need for collection of data on golf cart use in the Villages.

As I grow older, I sometimes do repeat myself and sometimes for good reason. Enough said today! :icon_wink:

[tomwed]

I'm surprised no-one has initiated a TOTV Poll as to how many residents use their golf cart at night, and how many are in favor of striping. Or perhaps I missed the poll.
I don't know how to do a poll but I think it's a great idea.

Wouldn't it be even more scientific to put the striping in a confined area and then poll the drivers at the end of the road at a poll booth?

You would swipe your ID like a credit card on a ATM kind of machine, so you couldn't vote twice at the poll booth. The question on the screen would read:

True or False

Does striping improve safety?

We could use a poll booth like that for all kinds of questions.

[golfing eagles]

I agree with your comments about sense of community. But there is always going to be a cutoff point financially, over spending money on a minority of community members. The numbers of people that drive carts at night are a fraction of those that drive during the day. And of those that drive at night, what percentage have trouble navigating the recreational trails? And most importantly, do we have a high accident rate attributable to poor night time visibility? I suspect not. I have not seen the engineering study, but I know of the engineering firm and it is a good one. If there is doubt about the results of the study, more accident data should be collected and the matter can be looked at in a few years down the road.

There are always financial constraints to be considered. The number stated in the thread, accurate or not, was $300,000 to install striping and $100,000 per year maintenance. Divide by about 50,000 homes and this is 50 cents/ month for 1 year and 17 cents/ month thereafter.

Now consider this:
Ever notice those little highway millage markers every 1/10 mile on interstates, US highways, and most state highways?
There are 46,876 miles of interstates, with signs in both directions every 1/10 mile, for a total of 937,520 of them
There are an additional 175,514 miles in the National Highway system= another 3,510,280 signs
There are 780,000 miles of state highways = another 15,600,000 signs
Total 20,047,800 of these little markers

According to the Illinois Dept of highways, it costs $125 to MANUFACTURE each of the signs and more to install them, so lets assume a low number 0f $300/sign. This makes a total cost for these signs, installed, of 6.014 BILLION dollars. God only knows the yearly maintenance cost.

According to the IRS, there are 243 million adult Americans, of which 122 million pay federal income tax (which in and of itself is a different problem). Just under 1/2 of the returns are joint filings, so let's assume 80 million distinct 1040's that actually pay tax. Dividing into the 6 billion cost = $75.18 per tax return over however many years it took to put these signs up.

So, as far as cost benefit goes, what would you rather have---striping for $3 or little signs for $75??? I'm sure the maintenance on these little signs is more than that of the striping as well

And now for the coup de gras: The stated purpose of these markers, according to the US Highway Dept, is "to aid tow truck operators in locating disabled vehicles"
Now, if a professional tow truck operator cannot see a disabled vehicle from far further away than 1/10 mile, he certainly cannot read those little signs. And despite what I already posted , HE should be the one to stay off our MMPs

[tomwed]

There are always financial constraints to be considered. The number stated in the thread, accurate or not, was $300,000 to install striping and $100,000 per year maintenance. Divide by about 50,000 homes and this is 50 cents/ month for 1 year and 17 cents/ month thereafter.

Now consider this:
Ever notice those little highway millage markers every 1/10 mile on interstates, US highways, and most state highways?
There are 46,876 miles of interstates, with signs in both directions every 1/10 mile, for a total of 937,520 of them
There are an additional 175,514 miles in the National Highway system= another 3,510,280 signs
There are 780,000 miles of state highways = another 15,600,000 signs
Total 20,047,800 of these little markers

According to the Illinois Dept of highways, it costs $125 to MANUFACTURE each of the signs and more to install them, so lets assume a low number 0f $300/sign. This makes a total cost for these signs, installed, of 6.014 BILLION dollars. God only knows the yearly maintenance cost.

According to the IRS, there are 243 million adult Americans, of which 122 million pay federal income tax (which in and of itself is a different problem). Just under 1/2 of the returns are joint filings, so let's assume 80 million distinct 1040's that actually pay tax. Dividing into the 6 billion cost = $75.18 per tax return over however many years it took to put these signs up.

So, as far as cost benefit goes, what would you rather have---striping for $3 or little signs for $75??? I'm sure the maintenance on these little signs is more than that of the striping as well

And now for the coup de gras: The stated purpose of these markers, according to the US Highway Dept, is "to aid tow truck operators in locating disabled vehicles"
Now, if a professional tow truck operator cannot see a disabled vehicle from far further away than 1/10 mile, he certainly cannot read those little signs. And despite what I already posted , HE should be the one to stay off our MMPs
And I just thought it was a reflector hammered into the ground.
I'll be happy to pay $3 and another $2 per year for striping.

[buzzy]

Three years of reported accident data was used. You can't generate more past data out of thin air. And, you can't analyze the frequency of things that never happened. So the case can be made to hold-off on striping for the time being, and rigorously collect new data going forward for a given reasonable period of time. If the frequency of accidents increases over the test period, then proceed with striping. If the frequency stays the same, continue collecting data. If the frequency diminishes, then cancel striping.

[golfing eagles]

I have no idea how this general highway safety information below translates to safety improvements on TV MMPs, but for your dining pleasure........

HOW SAFE ARE OUR NATION’S HIGHWAYS?

In 2010, 32,885 people were killed on the nation’s highways, according to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), the lowest number of deaths on American highways since 1949. Another 2.2 million were injured. Motor vehicle accidents are the leading cause of death of Americans between the ages of 1 and 24 years old. In 2010, motor vehicle accidents accounted for more than one out of every five deaths among this age group. (Source: Centers for Disease Control, National Center for Health Statistics, National Vital Statistics Report, Volume 60, Number 4, January 11, 2012, Table 7). Poor road conditions contribute to more than one-third of all highway fatalities, according to the NHTSA safety data. Better alignments, wider lanes, median barriers, improved signage and signals, turn lanes, crash cushions, wider shoulders, utility pole relocation and other highway improvements could save thousands of lives each year. Almost three-quarters of all fatal accidents occur on two-lane roads. (NHTSA, Traffic Safety Facts, 2009) The Interstate Highways, despite high speeds, are the safest roads, with 0.78 fatalities per 100 million miles of travel. Wide lanes, gentle curves, long lines of sight, wide shoulders, barrier separated traffic and limited access points all contribute to the safety record. The worst are rural two-lane roads with a record of 3.08 fatalities per 100 million miles of travel (Highway Statistics 2009, Tables VM-2 and FL-30). Construction of the Interstate Highways has saved thousands of lives over the years. If all highway traffic were to occur today on same kinds of roads as we had in the 1950’s, the number of highway fatalities each year would exceed 165,000. NHTSA reports that highway crashes cost Americans more than $230 billion annually, including the cost of medical bills, lost wages, legal fees, auto repairs and delays. This is more than two percent of the nation’s total output of goods and services or Gross Domestic Product. The average cost per household is close to $2,000 per year. According to NHTSA, public revenues paid for almost 10 percent of crash costs, adding $200 annually to the tax bill of every household in the U.S.

[Barefoot]

Three years of reported accident data was used. You can't generate more past data out of thin air. And, you can't analyze the frequency of things that never happened. So the case can be made to hold-off on striping for the time being, and rigorously collect new data going forward for a given reasonable period of time. If the frequency of accidents increases over the test period, then proceed with striping. If the frequency stays the same, continue collecting data. If the frequency diminishes, then cancel striping.

Your post is very sensible. :ho: I hope it's taken constructively.

[bh5666]

At night oncoming carts with bright lights cause a real problem. To focus on side striping would surely help in these situations.

[bh5666]

Side striping would be very helpful at night when an oncoming cart has very bright lights.

[billethkid]

Those of you who keep proposing being willing to pay their dollar or two should be careful what you wish for and the precendent you are under taking.

At some point there will be other wants by "some" residents that will be proposed as only a few dollars per month. The trend ends up with ever increasing fees and or assessments or annua maintenace.....and a few dollars here and a few dollars there eventually we have fees that over the years become double what they used to be.

I have witnessed this creep into expenditures at other communities. Beware!!

[Xcuse]

Three years of reported accident data was used. You can't generate more past data out of thin air. And, you can't analyze the frequency of things that never happened. So the case can be made to hold-off on striping for the time being, and rigorously collect new data going forward for a given reasonable period of time. If the frequency of accidents increases over the test period, then proceed with striping. If the frequency stays the same, continue collecting data. If the frequency diminishes, then cancel striping.
This seems like a reasonable course of action. Use actual data and not just subjective perceptions.

[CFrance]

There are always financial constraints to be considered. The number stated in the thread, accurate or not, was $300,000 to install striping and $100,000 per year maintenance. Divide by about 50,000 homes and this is 50 cents/ month for 1 year and 17 cents/ month thereafter.

Now consider this:
Ever notice those little highway millage markers every 1/10 mile on interstates, US highways, and most state highways?
There are 46,876 miles of interstates, with signs in both directions every 1/10 mile, for a total of 937,520 of them
There are an additional 175,514 miles in the National Highway system= another 3,510,280 signs
There are 780,000 miles of state highways = another 15,600,000 signs
Total 20,047,800 of these little markers

According to the Illinois Dept of highways, it costs $125 to MANUFACTURE each of the signs and more to install them, so lets assume a low number 0f $300/sign. This makes a total cost for these signs, installed, of 6.014 BILLION dollars. God only knows the yearly maintenance cost.

According to the IRS, there are 243 million adult Americans, of which 122 million pay federal income tax (which in and of itself is a different problem). Just under 1/2 of the returns are joint filings, so let's assume 80 million distinct 1040's that actually pay tax. Dividing into the 6 billion cost = $75.18 per tax return over however many years it took to put these signs up.

So, as far as cost benefit goes, what would you rather have---striping for $3 or little signs for $75??? I'm sure the maintenance on these little signs is more than that of the striping as well

And now for the coup de gras: The stated purpose of these markers, according to the US Highway Dept, is "to aid tow truck operators in locating disabled vehicles"
Now, if a professional tow truck operator cannot see a disabled vehicle from far further away than 1/10 mile, he certainly cannot read those little signs. And despite what I already posted , HE should be the one to stay off our MMPs
When a sudden blown tire at 70 mph on an interstate caused my TR6 to lose control, bottom out in the median, take to the air across two lanes of opposing traffic and land up against a billboard, the people who stopped to help knew exactly how to pinpoint my location to the EMS by the mile marker.

Also, the quicker you can get disabled vehicles off the highway, the safer it is for motorists and occupants of the disabled vehicle.

I am not a careless driver, speeder, drunk driver, any of those things some are saying "Too bad, stay off the road" to. To this day I wonder if in my shock I ever even stepped on the brakes. I don't remember.

To me it's a matter of making the roads as safe as possible for every kind of driver. Back in the '70s it was a big deal to tally up the road deaths after holiday weekends. Cars and the roads have been made so safe you don't hear that much anymore.

And as for the poll... pick a torrential downpour after dark, take the pollsters out and let them navigate both marked and unmarked trails. Then let them vote.

[golfing eagles]

"When a sudden blown tire at 70 mph on an interstate caused my TR6 to lose control, bottom out in the median, take to the air across two lanes of opposing traffic and land up against a billboard, the people who stopped to help knew exactly how to pinpoint my location to the EMS by the mile marker."

So , if there was a marker every 1/4 miles instead of tenth, you'd never be more than 220 yards from one, and we would save 60% of 6 billion.

My point was that we already paid for/are paying for something far more expensive than striping that has very little direct benefit to residents of TV.
And of course that's just the tip of the iceberg, I just wanted to pick an example that was completely asinine

I also agree they help make pinpointing your location easier, but that was not the goal the US Highway Dept stated. Apparently they spent 6+ billion to aid blind tow truck operators