San Bernardino Shooting.

[Taltarzac725]

San Bernardino shooting - LA Times (http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-san-bernardino-shooting-live-updates-htmlstory.html)

Will have to follow this horrible story. Wait for the facts to come out though before jumping to conclusions. These are becoming way too ordinary. https://www.facebook.com/yarmouthpolice/photos/a.405464216135267.111396.156644224350602/1187564711258543/?type=3&theater

2 dead suspects identified in CA shooting - FOX5 Vegas - KVVU (http://www.fox5vegas.com/story/30651547/2-dead-suspects-identified-in-ca-shooting)

[Jaggy]

I was sitting at Publix waiting for my husband to check out and i was reading about the shooting happening ( On my phone).. I mentioned to the gentlemen sitting next to me, " well, there is another mass shooting happening in california".. He said, so what .. Right there is what is going wrong with this country.. SO WHAT?? are we so insensitive that another shooting becomes ho-hum???

[Taltarzac725]

I was sitting at Publix waiting for my husband to check out and i was reading about the shooting happening ( On my phone).. I mentioned to the gentlemen sitting next to me, " well, there is another mass shooting happening in california".. He said, so what .. Right there is what is going wrong with this country.. SO WHAT?? are we so insensitive that another shooting becomes ho-hum???

We seem to be becoming that way. San Bernardino Shootings: What We Know, One Day After : The Two-Way : NPR (http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/12/03/458277103/san-bernardino-shootings-what-we-know-one-day-after)

[Jima64]

I was sitting at Publix waiting for my husband to check out and i was reading about the shooting happening ( On my phone).. I mentioned to the gentlemen sitting next to me, " well, there is another mass shooting happening in california".. He said, so what .. Right there is what is going wrong with this country.. SO WHAT?? are we so insensitive that another shooting becomes ho-hum???

Too bad that person feels that way. Wish l could ask him why he feels that way.

[ajbrown]

I will never be insensitive to these situations. I cannot imagine the pain caused by some lunatic(s). Put yourself in a situation like this, being at town square when it is jammed and four murderers open up... unthinkable...

All that said, I am so tired of our media. It is like they relish these things. I am not taking away from the event, but we really need every minute for the next two days rerunning the same thing? How about we just update for 10 minutes per hour?

At least remove the tag 'breaking news' :ohdear:

Frustrated to find my morning news fix on any cable new network, I resorted to the Today Show and there is Matt in CA. I did not even know Today Show pretended to do news anymore.

[tcxr750]

Americans killed by terrorists in the US from 9/11 on 3,500. Americans killed by gun related homicides for the same time period 160,000.
What passes for entertainment in this country has changed in the past 30 years. More shows highlight the use of guns and the bloodletting. Could this be influencing how contemporary Americans have become desensitized to the need to respect what power and responsibility there is with gun ownership.

[nitakk]

San Berdoo is my home town. i lived there for over 30 years and am right now in the airport in Vegas waiting for my connecting flight to Ontario California. My family is all well but I have been glued to the TV since yesterday. Looks like this can happen anywhere. As the BBC reported, "just another day in America".

[Sable99]

Americans killed by terrorists in the US from 9/11 on 3,500. Americans killed by gun related homicides for the same time period 160,000.
What passes for entertainment in this country has changed in the past 30 years. More shows highlight the use of guns and the bloodletting. Could this be influencing how contemporary Americans have become desensitized to the need to respect what power and responsibility there is with gun ownership.

I don't understand your "same time period". The people killed on 9/11 were killed in about 2 1/2 hours and not all were American. I would think the 160,000 killed in gun related homicides were over a longer period of time.

[Polar Bear]

...terrorists can obtain weapons regardless of the existing laws or any other laws that you can envision...

Yep.

[jblum315]

The guns were obtained legally according to the FBI

[RickeyD]

If you want to cut down on gun violence arm EVERYBODY!!!



What in the world makes you think that any more gun laws will help anything? I've heard that there are over 23,000 gun laws on the books already. What changes/additions do you suggest?



A Republican problem? How about a criminal or terrorist problem? Why must you blame "the other party"?


I happen to be a card carrying Democrat that believes in the 2nd amendment. It's not a party problem but a societal one. Christian morals are decaying with radical religious beliefs filling the void.

[goodtimesintv]

More gun laws, my foot!

You'd better ban remote-control toy cars and pressure cookers, too! Then stick your head farther down into the sand.

"Multiple federal and regional sources familiar with the investigation of the attack at San Bernardino's Inland Regional Center told NBC News that the controller was similar to the model car controller used in the Boston Marathon bombing of 2013.

.....The attackers had also prepared metal pipe bombs of the type used by the Tsarnaev brothers after the Boston Marathon bombing. San Bernardino Police Department Chief Jarrod Burguan said Thursday at a press conference that 12 pipe bombs were found at a residence in nearby Redlands.

Though there is no known link between the Boston and San Bernardino incidents, the California attackers and the Tsarnaev brothers seemed to be using designs found in multiple issues of Inspire magazine, the on-line publication of al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula...."

San Bernardino Attackers Left Remote Controlled Bomb at Party - NBC News (http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/san-bernardino-shooting/san-bernardino-attackers-left-remote-controlled-bomb-party-n473621)

[Justus]

More gun laws, my foot!

You'd better ban remote-control toy cars and pressure cookers, too! Then stick your head farther down into the sand.

"Multiple federal and regional sources familiar with the investigation of the attack at San Bernardino's Inland Regional Center told NBC News that the controller was similar to the model car controller used in the Boston Marathon bombing of 2013.

.....The attackers had also prepared metal pipe bombs of the type used by the Tsarnaev brothers after the Boston Marathon bombing. San Bernardino Police Department Chief Jarrod Burguan said Thursday at a press conference that 12 pipe bombs were found at a residence in nearby Redlands.

Though there is no known link between the Boston and San Bernardino incidents, the California attackers and the Tsarnaev brothers seemed to be using designs found in multiple issues of Inspire magazine, the on-line publication of al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula...."

San Bernardino Attackers Left Remote Controlled Bomb at Party - NBC News (http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/san-bernardino-shooting/san-bernardino-attackers-left-remote-controlled-bomb-party-n473621)

Yep!

[billethkid]

The guns were obtained legally according to the FBI

And in a state with some of the most rigorOus gun laws in the country!!!

It also demonstrates the nice polite couple next door with a six month old baby were the shooters/killers/terrorists!!

We are not saying something when we see something.........often enough!

[John_W]

Americans killed by terrorists in the US from 9/11 on 3,500. Americans killed by gun related homicides for the same time period 160,000...

I don't understand your "same time period". The people killed on 9/11 were killed in about 2 1/2 hours and not all were American. I would think the 160,000 killed in gun related homicides were over a longer period of time.

I agree with Sable, those comments stood out to me as well. Just thinking back, the Vietnam War was about 10 years long and how many died there, 59,000 or so. I think 160,000 is a pretty big number. Also, I believe suicides by gun gets counted as a homicide and there are about 20,000 suicide by gun per year.

[Cathy H]

about 300 million guns now in the hands of americans. this is crazy.

[Bogie Shooter]

I agree with Sable, those comments stood out to me as well. Just thinking back, the Vietnam War was about 10 years long and how many died there, 59,000 or so. I think 160,000 is a pretty big number. Also, I believe suicides by gun gets counted as a homicide and there are about 20,000 suicide by gun per year.

What number killed would be acceptable?
Isn't it silly to be debating the numbers?

[graciegirl]

about 300 million guns now in the hands of americans. this is crazy.



It is too late for that kind of talk. You can't shut the barn door after the horses are out. If we tried to take away guns the only people who would give them up are the ones who stop for stop signs, plus, THAT is not the issue. I am not a gun person, don't have any, but I can see why people may want to have them after hearing that man talk on National News who had been in the room and had gone to the bathroom just before the shooters came in. He was against guns too, but at the end he said he had worked with Farouk and thought he was a gentle person with the same American dream that he had. He said that he and another man had barricaded themselves in the bathroom and the bullets had pierced the wall and he didn't know it until he saw blood on himself in the mirror. He cried at the end of the interview and said he is thinking about getting a gun.


Religion, any religion is wrong if it kills.

[zcaveman]

The guns were obtained legally according to the FBI

I read that it was by a third party -- not the users of the weapons. SO the third party should be in trouble for lending them the weapons.

Z

[ugotme]

Sorry folks - This isn't a gun problem it is a human problem!

People are not being brought up to respect each other. It is simply "Do whatever you want to do."

If anyone wants to kill they can get guns either legally or illegally.

All the gun laws in the world will not stop some MANIAC!

[billethkid]

And we know full well the killing will not stop even if there were no guns.

In addition to a human problem it is one of enforcement.

Too much concern about whether we might hurt another's feelings if the laws were rigorously enforced as intended!

How fast do you all drive in the school zones?
And the reason is?

ENFORCEMENT.....it does work!

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

I agree with Sable, those comments stood out to me as well. Just thinking back, the Vietnam War was about 10 years long and how many died there, 59,000 or so. I think 160,000 is a pretty big number. Also, I believe suicides by gun gets counted as a homicide and there are about 20,000 suicide by gun per year.

It's 160,000 over the last fifteen years. About 10,000 per year in a country of 330,000 people. Between 2009 and 2013 it was actually less than 9,000 per year. It's around 2/3 of all homicides.

In New Orleans, between 35-55% of homicides are classified as gang-related. In Chicago, an estimated 80% of homicides are gang-related. And in Baltimore, the police commissioner states that 80% of homicides are drug-related. Solve the problem of gang violence, and a huge chunk of the gun homicide and violence problem is solved.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

I read that it was by a third party -- not the users of the weapons. SO the third party should be in trouble for lending them the weapons.

Z

Yup, they will indeed be in trouble. That's what laws do. They punish the people who break them. They don't prevent people who want to break them from doing so.

The two shooters are dead and the people who got the guns for them are in trouble. That doesn't change the fact that fourteen innocent people are dead and 21 wounded. No law would have prevented this.

I think the pipe bombs are probably illegal as well. These shooters are really going to be in trouble for that.

Incidentally, only some of the guns were obtained from a third party. Some were legally owned by the shooters.

[Justus]

about 300 million guns now in the hands of americans. this is crazy.

Why? If guns, not criminals, were the problem, wouldn't there be many more homicides with that many weapons "in the hands" of Americans...and, by the way, I capitalize the word "Americans" out of respect for my country and its citizens.

[goodtimesintv]

about 300 million guns now in the hands of americans. this is crazy.

Not nearly as crazy and BLOODTHIRSTY as those who blow arms and legs off defenseless spectators/runners with pressure cookers at a marathon, or who crash-bomb and take down skyscrapers with jetliners full of fuel, or whose primary tactic was to use propane tanks and gasoline cans to blow up Columbine HS, or who use knives to cut off 21 heads of Coptic Christians and one poor clerical worker at her desk at an Oklahoma food packing plant, while her co-worker kept her head on because a company owner had the brains to keep his gun and vest in his office for just such an occasion. But nobody even remembers or mentions THAT.

[Justus]

Not nearly as crazy and BLOODTHIRSTY as those who blow arms and legs off defenseless spectators/runners with pressure cookers at a marathon, or who crash-bomb and take down skyscrapers with jetliners full of fuel, or whose primary tactic was to use propane tanks and gasoline cans to blow up Columbine HS, or who use knives to cut off 21 heads of Coptic Christians and one poor clerical worker at her desk at an Oklahoma food packing plant, while her co-worker kept her head on because a company owner had the brains to keep his gun and vest in his office for just such an occasion. But nobody even remembers or mentions THAT.

I remember, and you're right. No one seems to acknowledge the thousands of lives saved each year by the armed citizen. Thanks for bringing it up!

[graciegirl]

Not MSNBC, just the evening news.


Did anyone see the short interview with the three clerics from a local mosque where the shooters attended? There were three who responded to questions by a woman reporter sitting cross legged on the floor.


One's response to police coming at night to ask him questions.


The same one's response to a question about radicalization.


Did you see his non verbal reaction and hear what he said?


I did.

[Taltarzac725]

San Bernardino shooting - LA Times (http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-san-bernardino-shooting-live-updates-htmlstory.html)

Will have to follow this horrible story. Wait for the facts to come out though before jumping to conclusions. These are becoming way too ordinary. https://www.facebook.com/yarmouthpolice/photos/a.405464216135267.111396.156644224350602/1187564711258543/?type=3&theater

2 dead suspects identified in CA shooting - FOX5 Vegas - KVVU (http://www.fox5vegas.com/story/30651547/2-dead-suspects-identified-in-ca-shooting)

There are common sense solutions out there. Let's just see if our leaders keep taking these all-or-nothing stances.

What was the motive for this shooting? It still seems unknown.

[biker1]

When all is said and done, I suspect we will find that they were Muslim extremists. If that is in fact true, then that is your motivation.

There are common sense solutions out there. Let's just see if our leaders keep taking these all-or-nothing stances.

What was the motive for this shooting? It still seems unknown.

[Boudicca]

Ditto what Gracie said in her last post.

[Justus]

Anyone notice that some posts in this thread have been removed? Perhaps the moderators can explain why that happened.

Those of us whose posts were removed did notice. It's funny... immediately after the shootings, virtually all the mainstream talking heads...CNN, etc., speculated - with impunity - on national TV, that this was an act performed by "right wing extremists, anti-abortionists, Christian extremists, a militia movement", etc., etc., and suggested our guns were the source of the problem. When the identity of the terrorists was revealed, some even suggested that we need to protect Muslims from anti-Muslim backlash.

Now, however, none has the integrity or honesty to call this an ISIS-spawned terrorist attack. They're still groping for an elusive "motive"...and they're still calling these terrorists "home-grown". To France's credit, they identified their attack within minutes. We need to grow up. And we need our freedom of speech back. This PC stuff is destroying America.

[Taltarzac725]

Those of us whose posts were removed did notice. It's funny... immediately after the shootings, virtually all the mainstream talking heads...CNN, etc., speculated - with impunity - on national TV, that this was an act performed by "right wing extremists, anti-abortionists, Christian extremists, a militia movement", etc., etc., and suggested our guns were the source of the problem. When the identity of the terrorists was revealed, some even suggested that we need to protect Muslims from anti-Muslim backlash.

Now, however, none has the integrity or honesty to call this an ISIS-spawned terrorist attack. They're still groping for an elusive "motive"...and they're still calling these terrorists "home-grown". To France's credit, they identified their attack within minutes. We need to grow up. And we need our freedom of speech back. This PC stuff is destroying America.

This looks like an ISIS inspired attack. There is a big difference.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2015/12/03/fbi-takes-over-san-bernardino-investigation-as-authorities-seek-motive-for-attack-that-killed-14-people/

[Justus]

Explain the semantics to the victims. This is what I mean by PC.

[DeanFL]

Those of us whose posts were removed did notice. It's funny... immediately after the shootings, virtually all the mainstream talking heads...CNN, etc., speculated - with impunity - on national TV, that this was an act performed by "right wing extremists, anti-abortionists, Christian extremists, a militia movement", etc., etc., and suggested our guns were the source of the problem. When the identity of the terrorists was revealed, some even suggested that we need to protect Muslims from anti-Muslim backlash.

Now, however, none has the integrity or honesty to call this an ISIS-spawned terrorist attack. They're still groping for an elusive "motive"...and they're still calling these terrorists "home-grown". To France's credit, they identified their attack within minutes. We need to grow up. And we need our freedom of speech back. This PC stuff is destroying America.


Couldn't agree more. I heard on CNN - Wolf Blitzer yesterday, during a panel discussion -after much of the terror evidence was reported-say, "It appears that this was a mix of "Mass Shooting and Workplace Violence". These folks with their bias simply CANNOT face up to the fact - right from the top of the country...

If we had the current Leaders and media:

The Civil War would be termed - A Family Dispute.

Pearl Harbor would be - Airspace Infusion.

9/11/2001 would be - Wrongful use of Domestic Aircraft.

but>
Global Warming=Climate Change=Impending Destruction of our Civilization

[Taltarzac725]

Explain the semantics to the victims. This is what I mean by PC.

Not a matter of PC but a matter of who caused what. If these shooters had orders or some kind of communications from ISIS then that would be pretty much an act-of-war against the US like what happened in Paris and would involve something like French politicians' re-action. If this were just some very angry people looking for a reason to go on a killing spree then that is a different matter that does not I hope involve an act-of-war against the US. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/November_2015_Paris_attacks

I have been a victim advocate of sorts since January 1991 and my first thoughts are always for what victims/survivors are thinking.

This does look like a terrorist attack but one inspired by ISIS not controlled nor ordered in some way by them.

[Justus]

Not a matter of PC but a matter of who caused what. If these shooters had orders or some kind of communications from ISIS then that would be pretty much an act-of-war against the US like what happened in Paris and would involve something like French politicians' re-action. If this were just some very angry people looking for a reason to go on a killing spree then that is a different matter that does not I hope involve an act-of-war against the US. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/November_2015_Paris_attacks

I have been a victim advocate of sorts since January 1991 and my first thoughts are always for what victims/survivors are thinking.

It took moments for Timothy McVeigh to be labeled a terrorist. What's the difference between his "act of terrorism" and the one with which we are now dealing? Euphemisms and semantics cannot alter fact. What you are suggesting is PC...and I would not take stock in anything CNN, the Washington Post or Wiki says...they, too, are biased. That's my opinion, the right to which I'm sure you would defend to the end.

[Taltarzac725]

It took moments for Timothy McVeigh to be labeled a terrorist. What's the difference between his "act of terrorism" and the one with which we are now dealing? Euphemisms and semantics cannot alter fact. What you are suggesting is PC...and I would not take stock in anything CNN, the Washington Post or Wiki says...they, too, are biased. That's my opinion, the right to which I'm sure you would defend to the end.

These are terrorists who funded them, etc. are not yet known. That's not a matter of PC but of being accurate.

[Justus]

Well, then, the press, in their effort to be "accurate" certainly fell short in referring to the perps as "right wingers" and "pro-lifers". Here is a link to how "accurate" the reportage was, starring some of your favorite celebrity reporters:

Ten of the Dumbest Things Said About the San Bernardino Shootings | Power Line (http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2015/12/ten-of-the-dumbest-things-said-about-the-san-bernardino-shootings.php)

[ugotme]

The "Press" no longer cares about being accurate.
Basically all they want is to be first!
Secondly they want to push their own agenda - whatever that may be!

Have been sick and tired of this PC junk for a long time. Many people are starting to think this also.

[billethkid]

There are common sense solutions out there. Let's just see if our leaders keep taking these all-or-nothing stances.

What was the motive for this shooting? It still seems unknown.

What does the leader of Iran say....to kill the infidels....that is us. That is what the muslim religion preaches.

And just like in any other society even without the direction from religion there are some wackos who are going to kill other people....no matter the cause. And if, as in the case of muslims, there are some who cannot think and interpret for themselves.....they are wacko enough to believe what they are directed to do....by other wackos in high places.

So the radical wackos will attempt to carry out the mission to kill and be killed for the greater reward.

When these wackos are hidden in our society they take on the personna of the area they live and work. And of course their targeting will be within they areas they are most familiar. They have a long patience and will take what ever time it takes to plan and prepare for the ultimate attack. And in keeping with their wacko directions given, always seem to choose any place that is full of innocents and helpless to defend them selves.

There is no mystery. The American way....from television and movie traing all those years. What was the motive? Who did they pi$$ off? What revenge was being sought? and so on wasting time.

They are sworn to infiltrate, live among us and kill us.....those that are defenseless innocents.

......brainless cowards.

[goodtimesintv]

It is lame to see all the leftist PC suck-ups defending the religion by pointing the finger at the other majority religion and saying "the extremists aren't any more representative of Islam than the vile, poisonous Westboro Baptists are representative of Christianity". While it's mostly true literally, the equivalency they concoct is BULL.

For one thing, as vile and sickening as Westboro is, I don't think they have cut off any soldier's or gay person's head (the people they hate and spew verbal poison on), nor do they throw gay people off rooftops 'to cleanse their sins' as Sharia courts approve and sentence!

Secondly, I don't think we've EVER seen the "moderate, peaceful" Muslims in our country speak out about the hijacking by butchers of their religion, as is seen often like this:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cXTOlqb0f9o

I think the moderate, peaceful Muslims do not speak out against the killing because of reprisal and punishment in their places of worship--the mosques--the enormous difference from any of the world's Christian churches!!

[NotGolfer]

Read online, several sources that the wife had supported Isis....so they both had links to these folks. More will come out with time, I'm sure.

[Taltarzac725]

The "Press" no longer cares about being accurate.
Basically all they want is to be first!
Secondly they want to push their own agenda - whatever that may be!

Have been sick and tired of this PC junk for a long time. Many people are starting to think this also.

There do try to scoop one another and often with a story like this the facts take a long time to actually present themselves. It is about ratings, advertising, and the like.

It seems to have always been like this that they chase stories and get stuff wrong. You see it quicker now with all the wide range of quickly accessible news sources now.

[Carl in Tampa]

Well, it's official. The Deputy Director of the FBI in Los Angeles has just announced that the California shooting is regarded as an act of Terrorism based upon their preliminary investigation.

I'm sure that President Obama and his minions in the White House and Congress will be extremely displeased with this development.

It is heartening that the FBI is apparently following the evidence rather than the desires of the President. Other agency leaders in the government have not shown such courage.

Bravo FBI.
:BigApplause:

[ajbrown]

It is amazing how patient David Bowdiich is with the media. Not one eye roll, not one 'did you really ask that again'....

[Taltarzac725]

Well, it's official. The Deputy Director of the FBI in Los Angeles has just announced that the California shooting is regarded as an act of Terrorism based upon their preliminary investigation.

I'm sure that President Obama and his minions in the White House and Congress will be extremely displeased with this development.

It is heartening that the FBI is apparently following the evidence rather than the desires of the President. Other agency leaders in the government have not shown such courage.

Bravo FBI.
:BigApplause:

It is obviously terrorism but is there an ISIS direct involvement in it? The wife seems to be the radicalized Muslim who brought her husband on board. But, it sounds like ISIS is applauding their actions but did not plan, finance, or do anything else in this horrible event. The facts though are still up in the air as far as I can tell.

[billethkid]

The quacking and walking have finally led to the identification that it is in fact a duck!

[Cisco Kid]

Why is it that Facebook had a special French flag filter for the Paris jihad victims, but not the San Bernardino jihad victims?


( I saw this online )

[Taltarzac725]

Why is it that Facebook had a special French flag filter for the Paris jihad victims, but not the San Bernardino jihad victims?


( I saw this online )

Why not create one???

[Cisco Kid]

Why not create one???

I am not that bright.

[Taltarzac725]

Saw this on my Facebook page. https://www.facebook.com/AvaGardnerMuseum/photos/a.126130244393.99795.75613249393/10153788875754394/?type=3&theater

Amidst the news that the San Bernardino Massacre is now being considered a terrorist plot, we wish to show our support for those fallen, those fighting for life, and those trying to make sense of it all. Make sure to hold those close to you tightly and even in these dark times, look toward the light. #PrayforSanBernardino

[John_W]

Well, it's official. The Deputy Director of the FBI in Los Angeles has just announced that the California shooting is regarded as an act of Terrorism based upon their preliminary investigation...


Carl, as a former law enforcement officer and you seem to be following this story closely. I've been out all afternoon, but before I left about noon I was watching CNN and one of their reporters was going into the terrorist apartment. They said it was released by the FBI and the landlord had given CNN permission first to enter.

The reporter was making note of the many items spread out on the bed that apparently the FBI had looked over. What was somewhat puzzling was the CNN studio expert said he is surprised there is no fingerprint powder anywhere in the place. They scanned the camera around and it didn't appear to have been dusted. He said he was shocked, because they should want to know who else had been there. Also, he was surprised it had been released back to the landlord so quickly, he said normally they will pay the rent and keep the place as long as it's needed in case they need to return, if and when new information comes to light. What's your take on all of this? Any other experts hear anything else?

[DeanFL]

Carl, as a former law enforcement officer and you seem to be following this story closely. I've been out all afternoon, but before I left about noon I was watching CNN and one of their reporters was going into the terrorist apartment. They said it was released by the FBI and the landlord had given CNN permission first to enter.

The reporter was making note of the many items spread out on the bed that apparently the FBI had looked over. What was somewhat puzzling was the CNN studio expert said he is surprised there is no fingerprint powder anywhere in the place. They scanned the camera around and it didn't appear to have been dusted. He said he was shocked, because they should want to know who else had been there. Also, he was surprised it had been released back to the landlord so quickly, he said normally they will pay the rent and keep the place as long as it's needed in case they need to return, if and when new information comes to light. What's your take on all of this? Any other experts hear anything else?

I heard on news that MSNBC or Inside Edition paid the landlord to be the first in. Then everyone else stormed in with cameras etc. Heard the SB Police and FBI were livid the 'crime scene' was compromised. If that's the case?????? Why was there not a guard posted or such - very confusing. Good news is the bad guys are dead - so no jury trial issues - but you're right - other's fingerprints.

Also heard on news from the family's attorney - news conf this afternoon. The Mother of the bad guy lived with the couple - after answering a question 'When the 6mo old was dropped off for babysitting that morning...." That's when they offered Mom lived there and apparently was questioned for 7hrs by FBI - knew nothing (Sgt Schultz)... sounds stinky...

[Bogie Shooter]

The press moved in like a flock of vultures.
Why do I need to see a picture of a crib?

[Fredman]

If Obama doesn't wake up to the fact that our biggest threat is Isis and not global warming then these terrorist strikes will continue.

[golf2140]

That Peaceful religion strikes again.

[goodtimesintv]

If Obama doesn't wake up to the fact that our biggest threat is Isis and not global warming then these terrorist strikes will continue.

He is fully awake and knows that. It's a matter of wanting and leading the nation to:

a) be united and to prosper together; or

b) be divided and destroyed in another civil and/or world war.

I don't see interest in, nor leadership toward, choice a).

:(

[twinklesweep]

... Religion, any religion is wrong if it kills.

Presumably this holds true for the Christian Crusades, the cry of which was "Kill them all. God will know his own!" The "all" were primarily Muslims.

Is it any wonder that the jihadists refer to Westerners as "crusaders" in their social media messages? Is it possible that memories like this just don't go away?

Just sayin' (that is, not intending this point as justification...).

[goodtimesintv]

Originally Posted by graciegirl View Post
... Religion, any religion is wrong if it kills.

Presumably this holds true for the Christian Crusades, the cry of which was "Kill them all. God will know his own!" The "all" were primarily Muslims.

Is it any wonder that the jihadists refer to Westerners as "crusaders" in their social media messages? Is it possible that memories like this just don't go away?

Just sayin' (that is, not intending this point as justification...).

Gracie girl's statement, "Religion, any religion is wrong if it kills" is stated in the present tense, not 1,000 years ago!

Blaming the victims of attack instead of the attackers is pretty small.

[twinklesweep]

Gracie girl's statement, "Religion, any religion is wrong if it kills" is stated in the present tense, not 1,000 years ago!

Blaming the victims of attack instead of the attackers is pretty small.

I repeat:

... Just sayin' (that is, not intending this point as justification...).

There is no "blaming the victims" in what I wrote, no "justification" (quoting myself).

Again, "just sayin'...."

[Carl in Tampa]

Carl, as a former law enforcement officer and you seem to be following this story closely. I've been out all afternoon, but before I left about noon I was watching CNN and one of their reporters was going into the terrorist apartment. They said it was released by the FBI and the landlord had given CNN permission first to enter.

The reporter was making note of the many items spread out on the bed that apparently the FBI had looked over. What was somewhat puzzling was the CNN studio expert said he is surprised there is no fingerprint powder anywhere in the place. They scanned the camera around and it didn't appear to have been dusted. He said he was shocked, because they should want to know who else had been there. Also, he was surprised it had been released back to the landlord so quickly, he said normally they will pay the rent and keep the place as long as it's needed in case they need to return, if and when new information comes to light. What's your take on all of this? Any other experts hear anything else?

I believe that the Search Warrant on the house was served by the FBI. I'm sure they sent in several Crime Scene Technicians to facilitate getting the search completed more quickly. I'm confident that they were quite thorough.

At the point where they executed the Search Warrant "Return" which lists the evidence items seized, they released the location back to the owner. This is customary.

A significant issue is the "probable cause" for the search warrant. It was probably to obtain evidence that the suspects who were killed in the police chase were the residents of the house and had the means to commit the crime of murder. That doesn't mean that they can search for "just anything," but rather for evidence that links the suspects to the crime of murder that they were "suspected" of having committed. Remember that at this early stage no one was willing to use the word "terrorist."

The items on the bed that the searchers had "apparently looked over" must not have had value related to the investigation. Since it was not a terrorist investigation, there were limits on how thorough the search could be.

The "strange men" who came on the property went to the garage, where much of the bomb material was found. Perhaps that area was dusted for fingerprints.

The media is full of "experts" who frequently talk through their hats. These are also the people who don't seem to know the difference between "automatic" firearms and "semi-automatic" firearms, or the difference between "clips" and "magazines." That doesn't keep them from spouting off.

Having said all that, the family of the deceased might have a good civil lawsuit against the owner of the property for allowing the press into the house if the rent was still paid up to date, violating the privacy of the six-month old child and the mother of the shooter, who also resided in the house.

:police:

[Carl in Tampa]

Originally Posted by graciegirl
... Religion, any religion is wrong if it kills.

Presumably this holds true for the Christian Crusades, the cry of which was "Kill them all. God will know his own!" The "all" were primarily Muslims.

Is it any wonder that the jihadists refer to Westerners as "crusaders" in their social media messages? Is it possible that memories like this just don't go away?

Just sayin' (that is, not intending this point as justification...).

Two things:

1. Graciegirl overlooks the Roman Catholic doctrine of the just (as opposed to unjust) war. The Catechism of the Catholic Church, in paragraphs 2302-2317, authoritatively teaches what constitutes the just defense of a nation against an aggressor.

Called the Just War Doctrine, it was first enunciated by St. Augustine of Hippo (354-430 AD). Over the centuries it was taught by Doctors of the Church, such as St. Thomas Aquinas, and formally embraced by the Magisterium, which has also adapted it to the situation of modern warfare. This doctrine is generally observed by non-Catholic groups as well.

2. People who believe that Muslims have some justification for thinking that modern killing of Christians has some relationship to the Crusades do not understand the history of the Crusades.

The Crusades were the Christian push-back against Muslim expansionism, which had spread the Muslim religion BY THE SWORD across all of North Africa on the south side of the Mediterranean Sea and across the north shore of the Mediterranean all the way to Spain. (That's why Spain has so much "Moorish" architecture.)

If this push-back had not been mounted, all of Europe would be Muslim today. The Muslims, not the Crusaders, were the aggressors.

[Taltarzac725]

Just War Theory | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy (http://www.iep.utm.edu/justwar/)

You may want to look at this on the Just War in Philosophy.

[graciegirl]

Originally Posted by graciegirl
... Religion, any religion is wrong if it kills.



Two things:

1. Graciegirl overlooks the Roman Catholic doctrine of the just (as opposed to unjust) war. The Catechism of the Catholic Church, in paragraphs 2302-2317, authoritatively teaches what constitutes the just defense of a nation against an aggressor.

Called the Just War Doctrine, it was first enunciated by St. Augustine of Hippo (354-430 AD). Over the centuries it was taught by Doctors of the Church, such as St. Thomas Aquinas, and formally embraced by the Magisterium, which has also adapted it to the situation of modern warfare. This doctrine is generally observed by non-Catholic groups as well.

2. People who believe that Muslims have some justification for thinking that modern killing of Christians has some relationship to the Crusades do not understand the history of the Crusades.

The Crusades were the Christian push-back against Muslim expansionism, which had spread the Muslim religion BY THE SWORD across all of North Africa on the south side of the Mediterranean Sea and across the north shore of the Mediterranean all the way to Spain. (That's why Spain has so much "Moorish" architecture.)

If this push-back had not been mounted, all of Europe would be Muslim today. The Muslims, not the Crusaders, were the aggressors.


You are completely and absolutely right.


I am more concerned however with what is happening today and in today's world. I am more concerned with people who are not concerned with what is happening today in today's world. The civil war and the crusades are gone. We have the folks who live on this earth at this time doing things that are far from fair or justified.


I do NOT believe both of those people were mentally ill and I don't think it was work place violence. I think that there exists a growing new form to a religion that thinks folks who don't belong to it should die.

[Justus]

In the wake of this terrorist massacre, our Attorney General Loretta Lynch, in speaking to the muslim community, has vowed to "crack down on free speech, if necessary", in order to forestall any "anti-muslim backlash", which she described as her "greatest fear." This is our government's response to terrorism on American soil.

So much for the victims...so much for the Christians and Jews...so much for our Constitutional rights.

[Taltarzac725]

In the wake of this terrorist massacre, our Attorney General Loretta Lynch, in speaking to the muslim community, has vowed to "crack down on free speech, if necessary", in order to forestall any "anti-muslim backlash", which she described as her "greatest fear." This is our government's response to terrorism on American soil.

So much for the victims...so much for the Christians and Jews...so much for our Constitutional rights.

I can see it getting way out of hand. Especially with the 2016 elections coming up.

I do read a lot of history and some of the worst moments in our history come from fear and bigotry fueled by politicians trying to get votes or somehow increase their power base. Bridge of Spies teaches some very good lessons about this. Movies can teach respect for our US Constitution and the values it has. A lot of the Founder Fathers worried about politicians who did not have enough checks-and-balances on them. They had read a lot of Roman history which is full of politicians misusing the passions of people.

No two victims feel the same about stuff so I do not think anyone speaks for them. They should be able to speak for themselves though. If a politician starts speaking for the victims, I get very suspicious of his or her motives.

[DeanFL]

In the wake of this terrorist massacre, our Attorney General Loretta Lynch, in speaking to the muslim community, has vowed to "crack down on free speech, if necessary", in order to forestall any "anti-muslim backlash", which she described as her "greatest fear." This is our government's response to terrorism on American soil.

So much for the victims...so much for the Christians and Jews...so much for our Constitutional rights.

-----------------------

I heard her say this too. Immediately went to the bathroom to get my earwax removal kit and flushed. Was sure THIS could not have been said in public by her...but no wax...

It's like Bizzaro World in the White House communications - everything's 180 degrees out of synch. Guess we'd better watch our language and follow their PC rule. Don't want the Fed Hate Police to lock us up = 1984.

[Taltarzac725]

-----------------------

I heard her say this too. Immediately went to the bathroom to get my earwax removal kit and flushed. Was sure THIS could not have been said in public by her...but no wax...

It's like Bizzaro World in the White House communications - everything's 180 degrees out of synch. Guess we'd better watch our language and follow their PC rule. Don't want the Fed Hate Police to lock us up = 1984.

I doubt if she would use the government to come after someone saying something nasty about Muslims on Facebook, TOTV, or elsewhere. She seems to be talking about certain politicians who use hateful rhetoric to stir up their voting base. These people make things worse with respect to preventing further violence. They are often very dishonest in what they say too.

Some might find this interesting-- https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Bible-Verses-About-Just-War/

[DeanFL]

I doubt if she would use the government to come after someone saying something nasty about Muslims on Facebook, TOTV, or elsewhere. She seems to be talking about certain politicians who use hateful rhetoric to stir up their voting base. These people make things worse with respect to preventing further violence. They are often very dishonest in what they say too.

Some might find this interesting-- https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Bible-Verses-About-Just-War/
----------------------------

We'll simply allow her words in quotes to stand for themselves. BUT - if WE 'see something-say something'.... WE may be prosecuted. And what does "edges towards violence" mean? Gray and murky talk for an ATTY GEN.

As for that term - what about the Imans that preach hate toward US citizens in Mosques ON OUR SHORES. IS THAT THE SAME???
As I said BIZARRO.

her words:

The day after a horrific shooting spree by what appears to be a radicalized Muslim man and his partner in San Bernardino, California, Attorney General Loretta Lynch pledged to a Muslim advocacy and lobbying group that she would take aggressive action against anyone who used "anti-Muslim rhetoric" that "edges toward violence."

Speaking to the audience at the Muslim Advocates' 10th anniversary dinner Thursday, Lynch said her "greatest fear" is the "incredibly disturbing rise of anti-Muslim rhetoric" in America and vowed to prosecute any guilty of what she deemed violence-inspiring speech.

"Now obviously this is a country that is based on free speech, but when it edges towards violence, when we see the potential for someone lifting that mantle of anti-Muslim rhetoric—or, as we saw after 9/11, violence directed at individuals who may not even be Muslims but perceived to be Muslims, and they will suffer just as much—when we see that we will take action," said Lynch.

After touting the numbers of "investigations into acts of anti-Muslim hatred" and "bigoted actions" against Muslims launched by her DOJ, Lynch suggested the Constitution does not protect "actions predicated on violent talk" and pledged to prosecute those responsible for such actions.

“I think it’s important that as we again talk about the importance of free speech we make it clear that actions predicated on violent talk are not America," said Lynch. "They are not who we are, they are not what we do, and they will be prosecuted."

Assuring the pro-Muslim group that "we stand with you," Lynch said she would use her Justice Department to protect Muslims from "violence" and discrimination.

[Bogie Shooter]

In the wake of this terrorist massacre, our Attorney General Loretta Lynch, in speaking to the muslim community, has vowed to "crack down on free speech, if necessary", in order to forestall any "anti-muslim backlash", which she described as her "greatest fear." This is our government's response to terrorism on American soil.

So much for the victims...so much for the Christians and Jews...so much for our Constitutional rights.

Does that apply to the "press" invading that apartment?

[Fredman]

What is she going to do to all those who speak and direct violence toward policemen

[Justus]

Presumably this holds true for the Christian Crusades, the cry of which was "Kill them all. God will know his own!" The "all" were primarily Muslims.

Is it any wonder that the jihadists refer to Westerners as "crusaders" in their social media messages? Is it possible that memories like this just don't go away?

Just sayin' (that is, not intending this point as justification...).


This is all factually (and historically) correct and verifiable:

In 732 A.D., the Muslim Army, which was moving on Paris, was defeated and turned back at Tours, France, by Charles Martell. (Charlemagne)

In 1571 A.D., the Muslim Army/Navy was defeated by the Italians and Austrians as they tried to cross the Mediterranean to attack southern Europe in the Battle of Lepanto.

In 1683 A.D., the Turkish Muslim Army, attacking Eastern Europe, was finally defeated in the Battle of Vienna by German and Polish Christian Armies.

If these battles had not been won, we might be speaking Arabic and Christianity could be non-existent; Judaism certainly would not exist.


Do you remember?:

1. In 1968, Bobby Kennedy was shot and killed by a Muslim male.

2. In 1972, at the Munich Olympics, Israeli athletes were kidnapped and massacred by Muslim males.

3. In 1972, a PanAm 747 was hijacked and eventually diverted to Cairo where a fuse was lit on final approach. Shortly after landing it was blown up by Muslim males.

4. In 1973, a PanAm 707 was destroyed in Rome, with 33 people killed, when it was attacked with grenades by Muslim males.

5. In 1979, the US embassy in Iran was taken over by Muslim males.

6. During the 1980's a number of Americans were kidnapped in Lebanon by Muslim males.

7. In 1983, the US Marine barracks in Beirut was blown up by Muslim males.

8. In 1985, the cruise ship Achille Lauro was hijacked and a 70-year old Jewish American passenger was murdered and thrown overboard in his wheelchair by Muslim males.

9. In 1985, TWA flight 847 was hijacked at Athens, and a US Navy diver trying to rescue passengers was murdered by Muslim males.

10. In 1988, PanAm Flight 103 was bombed by Muslim males.

11. In 1993, the World Trade Center was bombed the first time by Muslim males.

12. In 1998, the US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed by Muslim males.

13. On 9/11/01, four airliners were hijacked; two were used as missiles to take down the World Trade Centers and of the remaining two, one crashed into the US Pentagon and the other was diverted and crashed by the passengers. Thousands of people were killed by Muslim males.

14. In 2002, the United States fought a war in Afghanistan against Muslim males.

15. In 2002, reporter Daniel Pearl was kidnapped and beheaded by - you guessed it - a Muslim male. (Plus two other American journalists were just recently beheaded).

16. In 2013, the Boston Marathon Bombing resulted in 4 Innocent people, including a child, being killed plus 264 people injured by Muslim males.

[goodtimesintv]

This is all factually (and historically) correct and verifiable:

In 732 A.D., the Muslim Army, which was moving on Paris, was defeated and turned back at Tours, France, by Charles Martell. (Charlemagne)

In 1571 A.D., the Muslim Army/Navy was defeated by the Italians and Austrians as they tried to cross the Mediterranean to attack southern Europe in the Battle of Lepanto.

In 1683 A.D., the Turkish Muslim Army, attacking Eastern Europe, was finally defeated in the Battle of Vienna by German and Polish Christian Armies.

If these battles had not been won, we might be speaking Arabic and Christianity could be non-existent; Judaism certainly would not exist.


Do you remember?:

1. In 1968, Bobby Kennedy was shot and killed by a Muslim male.

2. In 1972, at the Munich Olympics, Israeli athletes were kidnapped and massacred by Muslim males.

3. In 1972, a PanAm 747 was hijacked and eventually diverted to Cairo where a fuse was lit on final approach. Shortly after landing it was blown up by Muslim males.

4. In 1973, a PanAm 707 was destroyed in Rome, with 33 people killed, when it was attacked with grenades by Muslim males.

5. In 1979, the US embassy in Iran was taken over by Muslim males.

6. During the 1980's a number of Americans were kidnapped in Lebanon by Muslim males.

7. In 1983, the US Marine barracks in Beirut was blown up by Muslim males.

8. In 1985, the cruise ship Achille Lauro was hijacked and a 70-year old Jewish American passenger was murdered and thrown overboard in his wheelchair by Muslim males.

9. In 1985, TWA flight 847 was hijacked at Athens, and a US Navy diver trying to rescue passengers was murdered by Muslim males.

10. In 1988, PanAm Flight 103 was bombed by Muslim males.

11. In 1993, the World Trade Center was bombed the first time by Muslim males.

12. In 1998, the US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed by Muslim males.

13. On 9/11/01, four airliners were hijacked; two were used as missiles to take down the World Trade Centers and of the remaining two, one crashed into the US Pentagon and the other was diverted and crashed by the passengers. Thousands of people were killed by Muslim males.

14. In 2002, the United States fought a war in Afghanistan against Muslim males.

15. In 2002, reporter Daniel Pearl was kidnapped and beheaded by - you guessed it - a Muslim male. (Plus two other American journalists were just recently beheaded).

16. In 2013, the Boston Marathon Bombing resulted in 4 Innocent people, including a child, being killed plus 264 people injured by Muslim males.

We know these are the things that matter, but you might as well talk to the floor.

They do not want to hear.

[Taltarzac725]

We know these are the things that matter, but you might as well talk to the floor.

They do not want to hear.

Radicalized Muslim males and some females did these things for the most part. Islam is one of the largest religions in the world with most adherents being peaceful. At War With Whom?: A short history of radical Islam :: Middle East Forum (http://www.meforum.org/168/at-war-with-whom)

[Justus]

GoodTimesInTV, Sadly, I believe you're right, which brings back the phrase, "...and then they came for me."

[goodtimesintv]

Radicalized Muslim males and some females did these things for the most part. Islam is one of the largest religions in the world with most adherents being peaceful.

I'd be "peaceful" and keep my mouth shut, too, if I were a gay man not wanting to be hurled off a rooftop so that according to the Sharia Court, my 'sins would be cleansed'.

Islam: Governing Under Sharia


"Sharia, or Islamic law, influences the legal code in most Muslim countries. A movement to allow sharia to govern personal status law, a set of regulations that pertain to marriage, divorce, inheritance, and custody, is even expanding into the West...

...Some interpretations are used to justify cruel punishments such as amputation and stoning, as well as unequal treatment of women in inheritance, dress, and independence."

Islam: Governing Under Sharia - Council on Foreign Relations (http://www.cfr.org/religion/islam-governing-under-sharia/p8034)

[twinklesweep]

Originally Posted by graciegirl
... Religion, any religion is wrong if it kills.



Two things:

1. Graciegirl overlooks the Roman Catholic doctrine of the just (as opposed to unjust) war. The Catechism of the Catholic Church, in paragraphs 2302-2317, authoritatively teaches what constitutes the just defense of a nation against an aggressor.

Called the Just War Doctrine, it was first enunciated by St. Augustine of Hippo (354-430 AD). Over the centuries it was taught by Doctors of the Church, such as St. Thomas Aquinas, and formally embraced by the Magisterium, which has also adapted it to the situation of modern warfare. This doctrine is generally observed by non-Catholic groups as well.

2. People who believe that Muslims have some justification for thinking that modern killing of Christians has some relationship to the Crusades do not understand the history of the Crusades.

The Crusades were the Christian push-back against Muslim expansionism, which had spread the Muslim religion BY THE SWORD across all of North Africa on the south side of the Mediterranean Sea and across the north shore of the Mediterranean all the way to Spain. (That's why Spain has so much "Moorish" architecture.)

If this push-back had not been mounted, all of Europe would be Muslim today. The Muslims, not the Crusaders, were the aggressors.

History is certainly subject to interpretation. However, to keep it simple, what would be the explanation that there still exist today Crusader fortifications built hundreds of years ago in places that would not be associated with Christianity during the time of the Crusades--such places as Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Turkey, and more.

The "kill them all!" applied not solely to Muslims; it applied to everyone who did not accept the tenets of the Roman Catholic Church. In this context, consider the Inquisition in Catholic countries like Spain and Portugal, which I would think we're all familiar with. And though not directly related to this issue, consider the response of the Roman Catholic Church to the Cathars (fellow Christians who felt the true principles of Christianity were being compromised by the Church, sought to separate themselves from it, and were followed and massacred by the armies of the Church because of their beliefs).

History cannot be viewed in such black-and-white terms. History--especially when forgotten or, worse, never learned--has a way of coming back to haunt us. We cannot glibly say that one side is the aggressor, not the other, when there are so many other factors to consider, for example, colonialism (France "owning" Algeria, for one, and its results in the present); and rule by individual despotic dictators that did result in a semblance of stability, even if were not what we in the West would consider ideal or even acceptable (Marshal Tito in the "made-up country" of Yugoslavia, Saddam Hussein in Iraq after the whole Middle East had been carved up into so-called "countries" mainly by the British from the Ottoman Empire early in the 20th century). These are just two examples.

Again, I reiterate that I am not justifying today's jihadism but just considering what might be one (of many) possible reasons for it.

[Justus]

Radicalized Muslim males and some females did these things for the most part. Islam is one of the largest religions in the world with most adherents being peaceful. At War With Whom?: A short history of radical Islam :: Middle East Forum (http://www.meforum.org/168/at-war-with-whom)

...And they all read and recite the Quran faithfully, which iterates and reiterates, "Kill the infidels". We are the infidels. Islam means "submission". No slur. Just fact.

[biker1]

I believe there is always an attempt to try to analyze and apply logic to what is essentially an illogical situation. That is one of the problems we have in the west.

History is certainly subject to interpretation. However, to keep it simple, what would be the explanation that there still exist today Crusader fortifications built hundreds of years ago in places that would not be associated with Christianity during the time of the Crusades--such places as Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Turkey, and more.

The "kill them all!" applied not solely to Muslims; it applied to everyone who did not accept the tenets of the Roman Catholic Church. In this context, consider the Inquisition in Catholic countries like Spain and Portugal, which I would think we're all familiar with. And though not directly related to this issue, consider the response of the Roman Catholic Church to the Cathars (fellow Christians who felt the true principles of Christianity were being compromised by the Church, sought to separate themselves from it, and were followed and massacred by the armies of the Church because of their beliefs).

History cannot be viewed in such black-and-white terms. History--especially when forgotten or, worse, never learned--has a way of coming back to haunt us. We cannot glibly say that one side is the aggressor, not the other, when there are so many other factors to consider, for example, colonialism (France "owning" Algeria, for one, and its results in the present); and rule by individual despotic dictators that did result in a semblance of stability, even if were not what we in the West would consider ideal or even acceptable (Marshal Tito in the "made-up country" of Yugoslavia, Saddam Hussein in Iraq after the whole Middle East had been carved up into so-called "countries" mainly by the British from the Ottoman Empire early in the 20th century). These are just two examples.

Again, I reiterate that I am not justifying today's jihadism but just considering what might be one (of many) possible reasons for it.

[Justus]

What is she going to do to all those who speak and direct violence toward policemen

I doubt she cares any more than her predecessor did.

[outlaw]

History is certainly subject to interpretation. However, to keep it simple, what would be the explanation that there still exist today Crusader fortifications built hundreds of years ago in places that would not be associated with Christianity during the time of the Crusades--such places as Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Turkey, and more.

The "kill them all!" applied not solely to Muslims; it applied to everyone who did not accept the tenets of the Roman Catholic Church. In this context, consider the Inquisition in Catholic countries like Spain and Portugal, which I would think we're all familiar with. And though not directly related to this issue, consider the response of the Roman Catholic Church to the Cathars (fellow Christians who felt the true principles of Christianity were being compromised by the Church, sought to separate themselves from it, and were followed and massacred by the armies of the Church because of their beliefs).

History cannot be viewed in such black-and-white terms. History--especially when forgotten or, worse, never learned--has a way of coming back to haunt us. We cannot glibly say that one side is the aggressor, not the other, when there are so many other factors to consider, for example, colonialism (France "owning" Algeria, for one, and its results in the present); and rule by individual despotic dictators that did result in a semblance of stability, even if were not what we in the West would consider ideal or even acceptable (Marshal Tito in the "made-up country" of Yugoslavia, Saddam Hussein in Iraq after the whole Middle East had been carved up into so-called "countries" mainly by the British from the Ottoman Empire early in the 20th century). These are just two examples.

Again, I reiterate that I am not justifying today's jihadism but just considering what might be one (of many) possible reasons for it.

Based on your logic, they are committing these attacks as response to events hundreds of years ago. I doubt they will be satisfied anytime soon. So it seems the only thing we can do is destroy them before they destroy us.

[Cathy H]

Well, it's official. The Deputy Director of the FBI in Los Angeles has just announced that the California shooting is regarded as an act of Terrorism based upon their preliminary investigation.

I'm sure that President Obama and his minions in the White House and Congress will be extremely displeased with this development.

It is heartening that the FBI is apparently following the evidence rather than the desires of the President. Other agency leaders in the government have not shown such courage.

Bravo FBI.
:BigApplause:
forget all the political stuff. but the flu? ebola? malaria? polio? obesity?
We have a gun epidemic in this country & it needs to be fixed.

[graciegirl]

forget all the political stuff. but the flu? ebola? malaria? polio? obesity?
We have a gun epidemic in this country & it needs to be fixed.



This is from a person who doesn't have a gun, so I don't have a gun in this fight, so to speak. But WHAT would you do about all of the guns owned by all of the people who already have them, which I understand is about one per citizen? They don't wear out or biodegrade and can be passed down to future generations. If they became more difficult to get legally, they then would be easier to get illegally. Making drug use and possession illegal is not working, so I am thinking that the only people who would willingly give a gun up would be decent, law abiding ones and although I don't have a gun, the way things are going I may want one some day soon.


When there is a terror attack and people change the subject, I just don't get it at all. Do they think that makes the terror attack go away????

[Polar Bear]

...When there is a terror attack and people change the subject, I just don't get it at all. Do they think that makes the terror attack go away????

Same thing I always wonder.

[twinklesweep]

Based on your logic, they are committing these attacks as response to events hundreds of years ago. I doubt they will be satisfied anytime soon. So it seems the only thing we can do is destroy them before they destroy us.

First, I never thought of history as "logic." History is "what happened," and as I said, it's open to interpretation as history can be rewritten to suit a particular context.

Second, I didn't say "they are committing these attacks as response to events hundreds of years ago." I just suggested considering that this may be one of their possible motives, based on their PR referring to the West as "crusaders." And memories can last a long time; as I said earlier, the "ethnic cleansing" that followed the death of Tito and the breakup of Yugoslavia; the destruction of Iraq and the coming of ISIS that resulted from taking down Saddam Hussein, who kept the traditional enemies of Shia versus Sunni under his despotic control; the genocide in Rwanda between the Hutu and the Tutsi in the mid 1990s; the Holocaust in Europe during World War II; the Armenian genocide by the Turks around the time of World War I--all were based on cultural/societal memories from hundreds of years ago.

And third, I agree with your last statement: "... the only thing we can do is destroy them before they destroy us." Sad, but that's what it is....

[Taltarzac725]

I'd be "peaceful" and keep my mouth shut, too, if I were a gay man not wanting to be hurled off a rooftop so that according to the Sharia Court, my 'sins would be cleansed'.

Islam: Governing Under Sharia


"Sharia, or Islamic law, influences the legal code in most Muslim countries. A movement to allow sharia to govern personal status law, a set of regulations that pertain to marriage, divorce, inheritance, and custody, is even expanding into the West...

...Some interpretations are used to justify cruel punishments such as amputation and stoning, as well as unequal treatment of women in inheritance, dress, and independence."

Islam: Governing Under Sharia - Council on Foreign Relations (http://www.cfr.org/religion/islam-governing-under-sharia/p8034)

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2100.html

Not sure how many countries have just Sharia Law. The one that ISIS is creating seems like an aberration of some 8th Century interpretation of Islam by some very cruel ten year old. Off with their heads said the Red Queen. Sharia Law In The USA 101: A Guide To What It Is And Why States Want To Ban It (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/29/sharia-law-usa-states-ban_n_3660813.html)

[Moderator]

Please stay on the original "current events" topic of the attack in California. A number of posts have strayed into name calling of other members and public officials, gotten off topic, or teetered into partisan political discussions.

Also, please note...if you reply and quote a post that is subsequently removed or hidden, your reply will also be removed as it contains a removed post. This is what we refer to as orphan posts. Your post, by itself, may have been perfectly fine.


Feel free to visit the political forum within TOTV for a free wheeling, unmoderated discussion of this and any other political or current events topic.

Within the general forum, current events threads need to stay on topic, avoid partisan references, and cannot include name calling. Please be civil and respectful of others' opinions.

Thanks for your cooperation. It is possible and encouraged to have civil discussions about topics of concern to all of us.

Moderator

[graciegirl]

Please stay on the original "current events" topic of the attack in California. A number of posts have strayed into name calling of other members and public officials, gotten off topic, or teetered into partisan political discussions.

Also, please note...if you reply and quote a post that is subsequently removed or hidden, your reply will also be removed as it contains a removed post. This is what we refer to as orphan posts. Your post, by itself, may have been perfectly fine.


Feel free to visit the political forum within TOTV for a free wheeling, unmoderated discussion of this and any other political or current events topic

Within the general forum, current events threads need to stay on topic, avoid partisan references, and cannot include name calling. Please be civil and respectful of others' opinions.

Thanks for your cooperation. It is possible and encouraged to have civil discussions about topics of concern to all of us.

Moderator


Thank you for allowing this thread to stand and I think people have been very respectful over all. I will say again that going to the political forum where every poster is called guest is like talking to one's self. It is impossible to know or remember the views of anyone because they are anonymous and it is frustrating and useless. Although we do not know the real names of posters, over time we know where they stand on issues and how they react. In the political forum not having that is useless to try to read, understand and discuss or debate.

[goodtimesintv]

Please stay on the original "current events" topic of the attack in California. A number of posts have strayed into name calling of other members and public officials, gotten off topic, or teetered into partisan political discussions.

Also, please note...if you reply and quote a post that is subsequently removed or hidden, your reply will also be removed as it contains a removed post. This is what we refer to as orphan posts. Your post, by itself, may have been perfectly fine.


Feel free to visit the political forum within TOTV for a free wheeling, unmoderated discussion of this and any other political or current events topic.

Within the general forum, current events threads need to stay on topic, avoid partisan references, and cannot include name calling. Please be civil and respectful of others' opinions.

Thanks for your cooperation. It is possible and encouraged to have civil discussions about topics of concern to all of us.

Moderator

The political forum is totally useless, with everyone named "guest". By seeing the screen names here, we know the usual line of thought of a person even if we don't know their actual identity.

"Guest" on every post makes them totally disconnected and incoherent. Each time I look there, which isn't often, I tune out within one minute. There's no way to see whether it's one person talking 90% of the time on one side of an issue, or 500 people throwing in disconnected jabs. It's incoherent.

[Cedwards38]

Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism and other beliefs, including atheism are not the problem. EXTREMISM is the problem. People practicing their own beliefs is not the problem. Extremists that condemn people of other beliefs are the problem. People who hate and/or kill other people in the name of God are extremists. They are the problem in San Bernardino, Colorado Springs, Paris, London, the Middle East, New York City, and The Villages.

[Taltarzac725]

Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism and other beliefs, including atheism are not the problem. EXTREMISM is the problem. People practicing their own beliefs is not the problem. Extremists that condemn people of other beliefs are the problem. People who hate and/or kill other people in the name of God are extremists. They are the problem in San Bernardino, Colorado Springs, Paris, London, the Middle East, New York City, and The Villages.

I do agree with that. No one speaks for God only God or whatever you want to call him/her/it. The world would be a better place if some did not think they knew what happens after we die. There are clues in the beautiful works like The Bible, The Koran and other World Religion sacred works but these are only clues.

I also think the world would be better if more women and men followed the example of the ladies in Lysistrata. Lysistrata - Aristophanes - Ancient Greece - Classical Literature (http://www.ancient-literature.com/greece_aristophanes_lysistrata.html) But in some cases like the shooter in Aurora, CO that seems like what he really needed was a girlfriend.
Mass Shooting Psychology: Spree Killers Have Consistent Profile, Research Shows (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/19/mass-shooting-psychology-spree-killers_n_2331236.html)

Of course, this does not work well in the situation where the new lover (wife) seems to be the war-monger like with the San Bernardino massacre.

[Justus]

Thank you for allowing this thread to stand and I think people have been very respectful over all. I will say again that going to the political forum where every poster is called guest is like talking to one's self. It is impossible to know or remember the views of anyone because they are anonymous and it is frustrating and useless. Although we do not know the real names of posters, over time we know where they stand on issues and how they react. In the political forum not having that is useless to try to read, understand and discuss or debate.

Absolutely correct, Gracie! Thanks! :bowdown:

[Steve9930]

This is all factually (and historically) correct and verifiable:

In 732 A.D., the Muslim Army, which was moving on Paris, was defeated and turned back at Tours, France, by Charles Martell. (Charlemagne)

In 1571 A.D., the Muslim Army/Navy was defeated by the Italians and Austrians as they tried to cross the Mediterranean to attack southern Europe in the Battle of Lepanto.

In 1683 A.D., the Turkish Muslim Army, attacking Eastern Europe, was finally defeated in the Battle of Vienna by German and Polish Christian Armies.

If these battles had not been won, we might be speaking Arabic and Christianity could be non-existent; Judaism certainly would not exist.


Do you remember?:

1. In 1968, Bobby Kennedy was shot and killed by a Muslim male.

2. In 1972, at the Munich Olympics, Israeli athletes were kidnapped and massacred by Muslim males.

3. In 1972, a PanAm 747 was hijacked and eventually diverted to Cairo where a fuse was lit on final approach. Shortly after landing it was blown up by Muslim males.

4. In 1973, a PanAm 707 was destroyed in Rome, with 33 people killed, when it was attacked with grenades by Muslim males.

5. In 1979, the US embassy in Iran was taken over by Muslim males.

6. During the 1980's a number of Americans were kidnapped in Lebanon by Muslim males.

7. In 1983, the US Marine barracks in Beirut was blown up by Muslim males.

8. In 1985, the cruise ship Achille Lauro was hijacked and a 70-year old Jewish American passenger was murdered and thrown overboard in his wheelchair by Muslim males.

9. In 1985, TWA flight 847 was hijacked at Athens, and a US Navy diver trying to rescue passengers was murdered by Muslim males.

10. In 1988, PanAm Flight 103 was bombed by Muslim males.

11. In 1993, the World Trade Center was bombed the first time by Muslim males.

12. In 1998, the US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed by Muslim males.

13. On 9/11/01, four airliners were hijacked; two were used as missiles to take down the World Trade Centers and of the remaining two, one crashed into the US Pentagon and the other was diverted and crashed by the passengers. Thousands of people were killed by Muslim males.

14. In 2002, the United States fought a war in Afghanistan against Muslim males.

15. In 2002, reporter Daniel Pearl was kidnapped and beheaded by - you guessed it - a Muslim male. (Plus two other American journalists were just recently beheaded).

16. In 2013, the Boston Marathon Bombing resulted in 4 Innocent people, including a child, being killed plus 264 people injured by Muslim males.

I'm sensing a pattern.....

[billethkid]

Terrorism/terrorist are soon to be candidates for political re-definition.

[dbussone]

Terrorism/terrorist are soon to be candidates for political re-definition.


Climate change caused man anger?

[Steve9930]

History is certainly subject to interpretation. However, to keep it simple, what would be the explanation that there still exist today Crusader fortifications built hundreds of years ago in places that would not be associated with Christianity during the time of the Crusades--such places as Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Turkey, and more.

The "kill them all!" applied not solely to Muslims; it applied to everyone who did not accept the tenets of the Roman Catholic Church. In this context, consider the Inquisition in Catholic countries like Spain and Portugal, which I would think we're all familiar with. And though not directly related to this issue, consider the response of the Roman Catholic Church to the Cathars (fellow Christians who felt the true principles of Christianity were being compromised by the Church, sought to separate themselves from it, and were followed and massacred by the armies of the Church because of their beliefs).

History cannot be viewed in such black-and-white terms. History--especially when forgotten or, worse, never learned--has a way of coming back to haunt us. We cannot glibly say that one side is the aggressor, not the other, when there are so many other factors to consider, for example, colonialism (France "owning" Algeria, for one, and its results in the present); and rule by individual despotic dictators that did result in a semblance of stability, even if were not what we in the West would consider ideal or even acceptable (Marshal Tito in the "made-up country" of Yugoslavia, Saddam Hussein in Iraq after the whole Middle East had been carved up into so-called "countries" mainly by the British from the Ottoman Empire early in the 20th century). These are just two examples.

Again, I reiterate that I am not justifying today's jihadism but just considering what might be one (of many) possible reasons for it.

It comes down to this fact. Most religions have had a violent period, however they have evolved forward. Islam still has very active factions that preach a 7th Century Philosophy in the 21st Century. They just can't coincide. There are two fronts to this war, one of bullets and one of ideas. The bullet war we can win, the idea war we are loosing badly.

[biker1]

Let's assume your premise is correct that we have a gun epidemic. What exactly is your recommendation? Please keep in mind that the vast majority of gun owners are responsible, law abiding citizens. Is your suggestion to completely outlaw guns? In other words, everyone must turn in their guns, no exceptions? Assuming this is your solution, exactly how does this work when honest citizens turn in their guns but criminals don't? What most people don't realize is that background checks are required for gun purchases, at least in the states I have lived it. You also can't buy assault weapons (aka fully automatic weapons), despite what the media would like you to believe. Perhaps the background checks could be done better. Regardless, what exactly is your recommendation? You also might want to keep in mind that the call for additional gun control whenever there is an incident of mental illness or terrorism based gun violence only creates a spike in gun sales. Obama should be recognized as the gun salesman of the decade.

forget all the political stuff. but the flu? ebola? malaria? polio? obesity?
We have a gun epidemic in this country & it needs to be fixed.

[Steve9930]

We do not have a gun problem, we have a violence problem. Those that advocate for stronger gun laws should educate themselves on the current laws. Most of the Politian's are not advocating anything new, they are just spinning a tale for votes. We already have in place what they are preaching. There are background checks, there is no internet loop hole, its against Federal Law to make a living at selling firearms without a license, and on and on.

This tragedy in California happened because we have become so sensitive to the possibility of being called a bigot or a racist that we over look the obvious in front of us at times. If you study each of these tragedies, whether it be by a mentally Ill Individual or in the case by two radicalized individuals, someone knew, someone had a hunch, things did not pass the smell test. This has got to change. See something, say something. People we are in a fight for our way of life.

[jblum315]

I'm sensing a pattern.....

Well, this time it was a Muslim female. So where's your pattern now?

[goodtimesintv]

Well, this time it was a Muslim female. So where's your pattern now?

No, it was a Muslim male AND female.

Stop making excuses for such bloodthirsty killers, plural. That male went on his own volition to get the female from the middle east, to marry her on his own volition.

What he absorbed into his mind, and then what actions he took with it, is his responsibility and nobody else's.

"The father of one of the San Bernardino killers told an Italian newspaper on Sunday that his son, Sayed Rizan Farook, had an obsessive hatred of Israel that underscored his Islamic radicalism and allegiance to the ideals of Islamic State.

An anti-Semitic streak was also discovered within the family as the father, Sayed Farook said he tried to dissuade his son from violence by telling him that "Nobody wants the Jews...In two years. Israel will no longer exist."

The senior Farook, in an interview with Italian newspaper La Stampa, described his son as "an angel. Good, obedient studious. Maybe a little too shy, conservative and firmly against Israel."

'My son was obsessed with Israel,' says father of San Bernardino shooter - Middle East - Jerusalem Post (http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/ISIS-Threat/My-son-was-obsessed-with-Israel-says-father-of-San-Bernadino-shooter-436454)

[Cathy H]

Let's assume your premise is correct that we have a gun epidemic. What exactly is your recommendation? Please keep in mind that the vast majority of gun owners are responsible, law abiding citizens. Is your suggestion to completely outlaw guns? In other words, everyone must turn in their guns, no exceptions? Assuming this is your solution, exactly how does this work when honest citizens turn in their guns but criminals don't? What most people don't realize is that background checks are required for gun purchases, at least in the states I have lived it. You also can't buy assault weapons (aka fully automatic weapons), despite what the media would like you to believe. Perhaps the background checks could be done better. Regardless, what exactly is your recommendation? You also might want to keep in mind that the call for additional gun control whenever there is an incident of mental illness or terrorism based gun violence only creates a spike in gun sales. Obama should be recognized as the gun salesman of the decade.
begin by re-instating the national law to stop selling automatic military rifles to anyone; then offer buy-back for assualt-type rifles now out there (like they did in Australia); stop all gun-show sales that do not do back-ground checks; strengthen the background check system for all gun purchases; do not allow ownership of multiple guns; introduce new gun safety technology in gun manufacture. 32000 americans die from gunshots every year. your cheap shot at our President was not appreciated.

[graciegirl]

CNN reported that the childhood friend whose home was raided and who purchased the long guns for the shooter is missing and is said to have "checked himself into a mental facility."

Also see this;
Report: Shooter's father says his son supported ISIS (http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opinion/report-shooters-father-says-his-son-supported-isis/vi-AAg5g6k)


Curiouser and curiouser.

[Steve9930]

Well, this time it was a Muslim female. So where's your pattern now?
Idealogy.

[AJ32162]

begin by re-instating the national law to stop selling automatic military rifles to anyone; then offer buy-back for assualt-type rifles now out there (like they did in Australia); stop all gun-show sales that do not do back-ground checks; strengthen the background check system for all gun purchases; do not allow ownership of multiple guns; introduce new gun safety technology in gun manufacture. 32000 americans die from gunshots every year. your cheap shot at our President was not appreciated.

And nearly 88,000 Americans die from alcohol related causes annually.

[Steve9930]

begin by re-instating the national law to stop selling automatic military rifles to anyone; then offer buy-back for assualt-type rifles now out there (like they did in Australia); stop all gun-show sales that do not do back-ground checks; strengthen the background check system for all gun purchases; do not allow ownership of multiple guns; introduce new gun safety technology in gun manufacture. 32000 americans die from gunshots every year. your cheap shot at our President was not appreciated.

First automatic weapons are not being sold to the general public. Although it is possible to buy a fully automatic weapon, you first acquire a special license from ATF, then the cheapest automatic weapon I saw was about $20K. There is nothing special about an assault style weapon. To limit the number of guns, to limit the style of a weapon when it is common use is already been adjudicated by the SCOTUS as prohibited by the constitution's 2nd Amendment. The only things you mentioned that are a possibility is to strengthen background checks and maybe, and that's a big maybe, require background checks on all sales. Which in this case and all of the others would have stopped nothing. An Australia style gun grap in the US would be unconstitutional.

[Callaway Guy]

A friend of mine posted this on Facebook in reference to gun control. It's not only food for thought to those in favor of gun control; it's also a belief that some of us that have CCL's think of when we are out in a public place nowadays -

"I stand behind you in line at the store with a smile on my face...and a gun under my shirt and you are none the wiser, yet you are safer for having me next to you. I won't shoot you. My gun won't pull it's own trigger. It is securely holstered with the trigger covered. It can't just go off. However, rest assured that if a fanatic walks into the store and pulls out a weapon, I will draw my pistol and protect myself and my family and therefore protect you and your family. I may get shot before I pull that trigger...but, I won't die in a helpless blubbering heap on the floor begging for my life or my wife's life. I won't be that victim. I choose not to be. As for you, I don't ask you to carry a gun, If you are not comfortable, then please don't. But I would like to keep my right to choose to not be a helpless victim. There is evil in this world and if evil has a gun, I want one too..."

[dbussone]

A friend of mine posted this on Facebook in reference to gun control. It's not only food for thought to those in favor of gun control; it's also a belief that some of us that have CCL's think of when we are out in a public place nowadays -

"I stand behind you in line at the store with a smile on my face...and a gun under my shirt and you are none the wiser, yet you are safer for having me next to you. I won't shoot you. My gun won't pull it's own trigger. It is securely holstered with the trigger covered. It can't just go off. However, rest assured that if a fanatic walks into the store and pulls out a weapon, I will draw my pistol and protect myself and my family and therefore protect you and your family. I may get shot before I pull that trigger...but, I won't die in a helpless blubbering heap on the floor begging for my life or my wife's life. I won't be that victim. I choose not to be. As for you, I don't ask you to carry a gun, If you are not comfortable, then please don't. But I would like to keep my right to choose to not be a helpless victim. There is evil in this world and if evil has a gun, I want one too..."

Amen.

[twinklesweep]

Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism and other beliefs, including atheism are not the problem. EXTREMISM is the problem. People practicing their own beliefs is not the problem. Extremists that condemn people of other beliefs are the problem. People who hate and/or kill other people in the name of God are extremists. They are the problem in San Bernardino, Colorado Springs, Paris, London, the Middle East, New York City, and The Villages.

Exceptionally well said! Some of the worst atrocities and wars throughout history were--and still are being--committed in the name of God and/or religion. And I believe that history has tremendous relevance to current events.

[twinklesweep]

First automatic weapons are not being sold to the general public. Although it is possible to buy a fully automatic weapon, you first acquire a special license from ATF, then the cheapest automatic weapon I saw was about $20K. There is nothing special about an assault style weapon....

I am curious what the practical applications are of a "fully automatic weapon" for a law-abiding civilian who likely would qualify for the required "special license from ATF."

[billethkid]

A friend of mine posted this on Facebook in reference to gun control. It's not only food for thought to those in favor of gun control; it's also a belief that some of us that have CCL's think of when we are out in a public place nowadays -

"I stand behind you in line at the store with a smile on my face...and a gun under my shirt and you are none the wiser, yet you are safer for having me next to you. I won't shoot you. My gun won't pull it's own trigger. It is securely holstered with the trigger covered. It can't just go off. However, rest assured that if a fanatic walks into the store and pulls out a weapon, I will draw my pistol and protect myself and my family and therefore protect you and your family. I may get shot before I pull that trigger...but, I won't die in a helpless blubbering heap on the floor begging for my life or my wife's life. I won't be that victim. I choose not to be. As for you, I don't ask you to carry a gun, If you are not comfortable, then please don't. But I would like to keep my right to choose to not be a helpless victim. There is evil in this world and if evil has a gun, I want one too..."

Very considerate way of informing our neighbors how we see and believe.
Well done.

:BigApplause:

[biker1]

Lets go point by point.

1) You cannot buy automatic weapons in this country, with the exception of some collectors. Please check your facts in the future.
2) "Assault-type rifles" is some made up term. What weapons, specifically, are you referring to? And don't say automatic weapons because you can't buy those.
3) Gun dealers must do back-ground checks when they sell at gun shows. Clearly you have latched onto some piece of misinformation. Please check your facts in the future.
4) Yes, the background check system can probably be strengthened.
5) Regarding the ownership of multiple guns, get real. It is not unusual for hunters to have several rifles. This right is protected by law.
6) What gun safety technologies are you referring to?
7) Two-thirds of the 32000 gun deaths are suicide. This is a mental health issue and not a gun issue.
8) I really don't care if you didn't like my comment about the president. It is true.

begin by re-instating the national law to stop selling automatic military rifles to anyone; then offer buy-back for assualt-type rifles now out there (like they did in Australia); stop all gun-show sales that do not do back-ground checks; strengthen the background check system for all gun purchases; do not allow ownership of multiple guns; introduce new gun safety technology in gun manufacture. 32000 americans die from gunshots every year. your cheap shot at our President was not appreciated.

[biker1]

Collectors.

I am curious what the practical applications are of a "fully automatic weapon" for a law-abiding civilian who likely would qualify for the required "special license from ATF."

[outlaw]

Well, this time it was a Muslim female. So where's your pattern now?

Uh, the 800 pound gorilla in the room?

[Cedwards38]

What we can learn from other advanced countries about gun control:

http://www.newsweek.com/gun-control-what-we-can-learn-other-advanced-countries-379105

The facts about background checks at gun shows:

Gun Show Background Checks State Laws (http://www.governing.com/gov-data/safety-justice/gun-show-firearms-bankground-checks-state-laws-map.html)

[graciegirl]

Does anyone think that changing gun laws or if by some way all guns were removed from the populace and all things like gun shows were abolished that we would not still have the extreme problem that is so frightening in this world?


Our all inclusive morality is making it easier. Our foundation of religious freedom is making it easier. Our fight against all hatred and our acceptance of diversity is making it easier. Our very politeness and being raised to be fair is making it easier for an ugly and horrible ideology to spread and sneak around and lay waiting to kill us, the infidels.

[HeyGeorge]

about 300 million guns now in the hands of americans. this is crazy.

not sure what's crazy about this. Isoroku Yamamoto, The Commander in Chief of the Imperial Japanese Navy made the following statement after Pearl Harbor "You can not invade the mainland United States - there would be a rifle behind every blade of grass." How many other nations feared attaching us because of our second amendment. Our problem is we have too many gun free zones. We are setting our citizens up as sitting ducks. Do you think the carnage would be so high if there was a gun in every pocket?

[outlaw]

Thank God France has very strict gun control laws. Imagine what could have happened during their most recent terrorist attack.

[graciegirl]

Does anyone think that changing gun laws or if by some way all guns were removed from the populace and all things like gun shows were abolished that we would not still have the extreme problem that is so frightening in this world?


Our all inclusive morality is making it easier. Our foundation of religious freedom is making it easier. Our fight against all hatred and our acceptance of diversity is making it easier. Our very politeness and being raised to be fair is making it easier for an ugly and horrible ideology to spread and sneak around and lay waiting to kill us, the infidels.



bump

[Steve9930]

I am curious what the practical applications are of a "fully automatic weapon" for a law-abiding civilian who likely would qualify for the required "special license from ATF."

Mostly collectors. I believe there is a gun range in Orlando that has automatic Weapons you can rent for their range and I believe they also have instructions on using them. Some people just want to see how they work and what its like to shoot a fully automatic weapon. I had enough of that in the service. I may be wrong but I believe the license fee is $250 for the permit and the ATF and FBI will know you on a personal basis. But the cost of the automatic weapon itself is the price of a very nice new Automobile. Then there is the cost of ammunition. Someone who had thoughts of doing something illegal would not go through the normal channels as these weapons are pretty well followed by ATF.

[Steve9930]

My personal review of 'the speech' last night.

words were spoken. yawn.

I agree but what else can he really say. The truth is lone wolf self radicalized attacks by an extremist are not possible to defend against. Evil shifts its tactics based on the defending response.

[Steve9930]

A friend of mine posted this on Facebook in reference to gun control. It's not only food for thought to those in favor of gun control; it's also a belief that some of us that have CCL's think of when we are out in a public place nowadays -

"I stand behind you in line at the store with a smile on my face...and a gun under my shirt and you are none the wiser, yet you are safer for having me next to you. I won't shoot you. My gun won't pull it's own trigger. It is securely holstered with the trigger covered. It can't just go off. However, rest assured that if a fanatic walks into the store and pulls out a weapon, I will draw my pistol and protect myself and my family and therefore protect you and your family. I may get shot before I pull that trigger...but, I won't die in a helpless blubbering heap on the floor begging for my life or my wife's life. I won't be that victim. I choose not to be. As for you, I don't ask you to carry a gun, If you are not comfortable, then please don't. But I would like to keep my right to choose to not be a helpless victim. There is evil in this world and if evil has a gun, I want one too..."

A friend of mine also posted this on Facebook. I found it to be a very good short narrative of those of us that carry a concealed weapon. Thank you for sharing it here. I find it also interesting being a veteran and trained in using a weapon, that many would like to now disarm me. This country trained many of us to use a weapon on the battle field, why would people want to disarm us now? We may have some snow on the roof but we are still ready to defend this country and its people.

[DeanFL]

I agree but what else can he really say. The truth is lone wolf self radicalized attacks by an extremist are not possible to defend against. Evil shifts its tactics based on the defending response.

OK, so using that rational:
- simply allow them to build their Caliphate in the middle east and beyond,
- don't focus on intelligence-gathering systems here and allowing them to weaken,
- continue to put limits on the handcuffed Syrian bombing missions,
- continue to not listen to your military advisors,
- continue to belittle our domestic police,
- use 1/3 of your speech - and 90% of your US Attorney General's speech last Thursday to warning US citizens not to hold prejudice against all Muslims,
- do not lead ALL the peaceful nations, including Muslim countries to rebel against this worldwide scurge. Continue to state the 65 country coalition is focused on this effort, clouding the actual truth.


Oh, and after all this - pass the baton to the new president in '17 when this war has worsened even more.

[Steve9930]

OK, so using that rational:
- simply allow them to build their Caliphate in the middle east and beyond,
- don't focus on intelligence-gathering systems here and allowing them to weaken,
- continue to put limits on the handcuffed Syrian bombing missions,
- continue to not listen to your military advisors,
- continue to belittle our domestic police,
- use 1/3 of your speech - and 90% of your US Attorney General's speech last Thursday to warning US citizens not to hold prejudice against all Muslims,
- do not lead ALL the peaceful nations, including Muslim countries to rebel against this worldwide scurge. Continue to state the 65 country coalition is focused on this effort, clouding the actual truth.


Oh, and after all this - pass the baton to the new president in '17 when this war has worsened even more.

Oh, I don't disagree that the foreign policy is abysmal. The fact is ISIS exists because the administration failed to negotiate a status of forces agreement when he left Iraq. I believe that many of the things you mentioned are already being done. Its frustrating. But if we go back into the area plan to be there for a long, long, long, time and we will spend Billions and many lives will be lost. And we should only go if we are committed to two things, Destroy ISIS Totally and plan to battle the 7th Century Ideology that exists there. To win a war you need two things, the commitment of the American people and the will of the local people in the country to help you destroy the enemy. If you want to see when this all started see if you can rent a movie called "Charlie Wilson's War" it will give you the perspective on what and why we are were we are today.

[billethkid]

Nothing new or any value added to the serious problem even after the CA incident.

Displayed below is a portrait of the enemy confronting us and forever elusive and deinied for some unkown reason by this administration and all it's advisors:

ISIS plot for world domination revealed in chilling detail with plans for education and industry - Mirror Online (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/isis-plot-world-domination-revealed-6968444)

Maybe just a one time propaganda production, however validated and made more realistic by the CA attack.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

My personal review of 'the speech' last night.

words were spoken. yawn.

What I find interesting is that he went out of his way to emphasize that we have no solid evidence that this was a terrorist attack or that these people had any connection with a foreign terrorist organization.

This morning, The FBI announced that they are treating this as a terrorist attack and that they have evidence that these people are part of a larger organization.

You mean to tell me that the president of The United States didn't have some information that this was the case?

A lot of what he said made sense to me, by why go out of your way to make a statement that you know with 99% certainty is going to be proven wrong.

More gun laws are not going to change anything. We need to start enforcing the gun laws that we have with maximum sentences. Even with that, more laws aren't going to stop crimes. Laws don't prevent crime. they only serve to punish people who break them. How many laws were broken by the two shooters? They're going to be in big trouble now. We already have laws against murdering people, but people still get murdered. Does anyone think that we need more anti murder laws?

As someone pointed out, a huge percentage of gun deaths in this country are suicides. Does anyone think that those unfortunate souls wouldn't find another way to end their lives?

What was not mentioned is the huge percentage of homicides that are gang banger on gang banger. If you solve the gang problem and you'd eliminate a large number of gun related homicides.

Another point is that although these mass shootings get a lot of media attention and get everyone all worked up, they actually account for a very small percentage of gun deaths.

[dbussone]

Thank God France has very strict gun control laws. Imagine what could have happened during their most recent terrorist attack.


If they weren't so strict and citizens had the right to carry, the carnage likely would have ended sooner. Franc's strict laws didn't hamper the shooters at all.

[goodtimesintv]

Oh, I don't disagree that the foreign policy is abysmal. The fact is ISIS exists because the administration failed to negotiate a status of forces agreement when he left Iraq. I believe that many of the things you mentioned are already being done. Its frustrating. But if we go back into the area plan to be there for a long, long, long, time and we will spend Billions and many lives will be lost. And we should only go if we are committed to two things, Destroy ISIS Totally and plan to battle the 7th Century Ideology that exists there.

To win a war you need two things, the commitment of the American people and the will of the local people in the country to help you destroy the enemy.

.....

You forgot this key point:

Highest officeholder in the nation actually believing and stating that the enemy SHOULD be destroyed, and doing it.

[kcrazorbackfan]

A friend of mine also posted this on Facebook. I found it to be a very good short narrative of those of us that carry a concealed weapon. Thank you for sharing it here. I find it also interesting being a veteran and trained in using a weapon, that many would like to now disarm me. This country trained many of us to use a weapon on the battle field, why would people want to disarm us now? We may have some snow on the roof but we are still ready to defend this country and its people.

But the gun haters see us older folk that carry as loose cannons that will wildly discharge our weapons. That is far from what will happen. Those with ccl's that do carry (and why wouldn't they) will be a first line of defense against these nut cases with weapons.

[Justus]

It's probably too simple an idea to say that anti-Second Amendment folks should identify themselves so that when the terrorists come around, they know who are sympathizers and who we crazy gun-toting cowboys are. This way, I'm sure no harm will come to them. A little lapel pin, perhaps, or small sign in a window saying "No Gun Zone" would suit me just fine.

[Justus]

begin by re-instating the national law to stop selling automatic military rifles to anyone; then offer buy-back for assualt-type rifles now out there (like they did in Australia); stop all gun-show sales that do not do back-ground checks; strengthen the background check system for all gun purchases; do not allow ownership of multiple guns; introduce new gun safety technology in gun manufacture. 32000 americans die from gunshots every year. your cheap shot at our President was not appreciated.

Australia's violent crime rate surged after they removed guns from the general population. And you've obviously never been to a gun show or you'd know that you cannot buy a weapon at any one of them without a background check; they are also well-monitored by the authorities.

Every fascist government has disarmed its citizens. If you've read about the African villages that have been annihilated recently, you know that Boko Haram, a radical Islamic group, does it before a massacre...it's the only way to ensure no resistance.

Closer to home, the government went door-to-door after Hurricane Katrina and confiscated the legal weapons of law-abiding citizens before they were forced to evacuate to mass shelters. Thugs still were able to smuggle weapons into the shelters and used the against the defenseless. There were rapes, robberies, beatings as a result...thugs doing what thugs do best.

[Steve9930]

These discussions can go on forever but I thought I would lend a few thoughts before this ends.

1st in this day and age you have to be vigilant. When in large crowds be aware of what is going on about you and where the exits are located. Loud popping noises today are probably not fireworks.

2nd if you decide to exercise your 2nd Amendment Rights get some training and practice with your weapon so as to be proficient. Remember once you fire that weapon you own that bullet no matter where it eventually comes to a stop. Many of the gun ranges, the NRA, and a other places provide firearms training.

3rd Be aware of what is going on in the neighbor, as I doubt there are people in this area planning an event you may hear something from someone else. Law enforcement can be very discreet about looking into something. See something, say something.

Remember your security is your responsibility. In most cases law enforcement shows up to write the report. They can't be everywhere instantly.

[tomwed]

Before the terrorist attack in Paris I flew to NY. I was one of the first people to board. I got confused because my assigned seat was in the back of the plane. When I sat down I noticed a briefcase under the empty seat next to me. I quickly got the stewardess because that's what you're supposed to do if you see something not right. She saw the bag and told me the owner was in the back bathroom and thanked me.

It's peculiar to me why I first thought bomb instead of bathroom. And before 9/11 I probably would not have said anything.

[goodtimesintv]

Before the terrorist attack in Paris I flew to NY. I was one of the first people to board. I got confused because my assigned seat was in the back of the plane. When I sat down I noticed a briefcase under the empty seat next to me. I quickly got the stewardess because that's what you're supposed to do if you see something not right. She saw the bag and told me the owner was in the back bathroom and thanked me.

It's peculiar to me why I first thought bomb instead of bathroom. And before 9/11 I probably would not have said anything.

Bravo for you. We all should speak up. This is one example of why people fear doing so. If this were said today, the U.S. Attorney General would already be prosecuting him for saying an honest, harmless personal observation that speaks for many across the nation....and everyone knows and can see his openness every day on television.

"[Liberal commentator Juan] Williams responded: "Look, Bill, I'm not a bigot. You know the kind of books I've written about the civil rights movement in this country.

But when I get on the plane, I got to tell you, if I see people who are in Muslim garb and I think, you know, they are identifying themselves first and foremost as Muslims, I get worried. I get nervous."

NPR Fires Juan Williams 2010
NPR Ends Juan Williams' Contract After Muslim Remarks : NPR (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=130712737)

[Cedwards38]

Does anyone think that changing gun laws or if by some way all guns were removed from the populace and all things like gun shows were abolished that we would not still have the extreme problem that is so frightening in this world?


Our all inclusive morality is making it easier. Our foundation of religious freedom is making it easier. Our fight against all hatred and our acceptance of diversity is making it easier. Our very politeness and being raised to be fair is making it easier for an ugly and horrible ideology to spread and sneak around and lay waiting to kill us, the infidels.

I don't know, but other advanced and developed countries that have taken some steps to control guns have more success than we do in avoiding gun violence.

http://www.newsweek.com/gun-control-what-we-can-learn-other-advanced-countries-379105

[Taltarzac725]

I don't know, but other advanced and developed countries that have taken some steps to control guns have more success than we do in avoiding gun violence.

http://www.newsweek.com/gun-control-what-we-can-learn-other-advanced-countries-379105

The history of the frontier and myths around it still resonate within American culture. Growing up in Reno, Nevada sure gave me different attitudes towards rifles/handguns than those I have heard from people who were brought up in more urban areas like Chicago, DC, New York City, etc.

It was different though in the Twin Cities to a certain extent as many people there still seemed to hunt/fish/camp and the like.

There does not seem to be any simple solution to this but watching out for one another and getting back a sense of community in many areas. That seems like a matter of local governments, organizations, etc., and not something done by bureaucrats.

[Steve9930]

Here is where we stack up in the world

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

[Steve9930]

More info from duke.edu.

TEN MYTHS ABOUT GUN CONTROL (http://people.duke.edu/~gnsmith/articles/myths.htm)

[tomwed]

More info from duke.edu.

TEN MYTHS ABOUT GUN CONTROL (http://people.duke.edu/~gnsmith/articles/myths.htm)
Copyright October 1994, NRA Institute for Legislative Action. This is the electronic version of the "10 Myths of Gun Control" brochure distributed by NRA. To obtain paper copies of this brochure, please call NRA Grassroots at 800/392-8683.

[Cathy H]

today the Supreme Court upheld lower court decisions to allow local communities to regulate military/assault rifles . Hooray!!!!

[Steve9930]

today the Supreme Court upheld lower court decisions to allow local communities to regulate military/assault rifles . Hooray!!!!

Glad your glad but there was more to that article.

[goodtimesintv]

today the Supreme Court upheld lower court decisions to allow local communities to regulate military/assault rifles . Hooray!!!!

And you think soul-less, bloodthirsty terrorists, felons and psychos will not have these weapons ANYWAY???????

[biker1]

Actually they declined to hear the case but you go ahead and believe what you want.

today the Supreme Court upheld lower court decisions to allow local communities to regulate military/assault rifles . Hooray!!!!

[graciegirl]

today the Supreme Court upheld lower court decisions to allow local communities to regulate military/assault rifles . Hooray!!!!



Not sure...........


http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/08/us/supreme-court-will-not-hear-challenge-to-assault-weapons-ban-of-highland-park-ill.html?_r=0

[Steve9930]

The story in California continues to evolve. The further they dig the more they uncover on possibly more people being involved. Saw another story were several middle eastern men were caught trying to cross the southern border. Homeland Security is now involved in that case (Not Related to California Case). I hope the FBI finds everyone involved in this attack.

[NavyNJ]

A friend of mine posted this on Facebook in reference to gun control. It's not only food for thought to those in favor of gun control; it's also a belief that some of us that have CCL's think of when we are out in a public place nowadays -

"I stand behind you in line at the store with a smile on my face...and a gun under my shirt and you are none the wiser, yet you are safer for having me next to you. I won't shoot you. My gun won't pull it's own trigger. It is securely holstered with the trigger covered. It can't just go off. However, rest assured that if a fanatic walks into the store and pulls out a weapon, I will draw my pistol and protect myself and my family and therefore protect you and your family. I may get shot before I pull that trigger...but, I won't die in a helpless blubbering heap on the floor begging for my life or my wife's life. I won't be that victim. I choose not to be. As for you, I don't ask you to carry a gun, If you are not comfortable, then please don't. But I would like to keep my right to choose to not be a helpless victim. There is evil in this world and if evil has a gun, I want one too..."

Saw that in my FB timeline and re-posted it as well. Could not agree more with that sentiment!!

[NavyNJ]

Oh, I don't disagree that the foreign policy is abysmal. The fact is ISIS exists because the administration failed to negotiate a status of forces agreement when he left Iraq. I believe that many of the things you mentioned are already being done. Its frustrating. But if we go back into the area plan to be there for a long, long, long, time and we will spend Billions and many lives will be lost. And we should only go if we are committed to two things, Destroy ISIS Totally and plan to battle the 7th Century Ideology that exists there. To win a war you need two things, the commitment of the American people and the will of the local people in the country to help you destroy the enemy. If you want to see when this all started see if you can rent a movie called "Charlie Wilson's War" it will give you the perspective on what and why we are were we are today.

All good thoughts Steve, to be sure. In addition to the movie you mention (and actually, the book!), I would also suggest taking a rainy weekend to watch "Lawrence of Arabia" for an even more historical perspective on developments in that region. And for a short, but informative, read that might add some value to the narrative, tty Amazon for a strategy paper published by the National Strategy Information Center titled "Oil, Politics & Sea Power in the Indian Ocean Vortex.". Sounds heavy but it brings a lot to the discussion of goings on in the region.
Ciao!!

[mgjim]

All good thoughts Steve, to be sure. In addition to the movie you mention (and actually, the book!), I would also suggest taking a rainy weekend to watch "Lawrence of Arabia" for an even more historical perspective on developments in that region. And for a short, but informative, read that might add some value to the narrative, tty Amazon for a strategy paper published by the National Strategy Information Center titled "Oil, Politics & Sea Power in the Indian Ocean Vortex.". Sounds heavy but it brings a lot to the discussion of goings on in the region.
Ciao!!

Still searching for the "Like" button.

[Justus]

And you think soul-less, bloodthirsty terrorists, felons and psychos will not have these weapons ANYWAY???????

I'm still liking the idea of those opposed to the Second Amendment posting "No Gun Zone" on their residences, in order to protect themselves - and their neighbors - in the event of a terrorist strike or home invasion...

[Justus]

In the news this morning, investigators have discovered large money transfers into Syed's bank account long before the terrorist attack, and two transfers to the account of his mother. Details of this will emerge as the probe continues. If this is a sleeper cell, the FBI will figure it out, unless some higher authority shuts them down. In the meantime, the family "knew nothing of their son's anti-American activity"; they are, after all, peaceful muslims.

BTW, Their accomplice is spilling his guts to authorities as we speak. Evidently, the pipe bombs found were designed to kill first responders. Stay tuned...

[cologal]

And nearly 88,000 Americans die from alcohol related causes annually.

This maybe a true statement but I'm unsure of your point. I believe that those who die from alcohol related causes are self inflicted how does that compare to those who die from gun violence?

Just trying to understand the logic....

[outlaw]

This maybe a true statement but I'm unsure of your point. I believe that those who die from alcohol related causes are self inflicted how does that compare to those who die from gun violence?

Just trying to understand the logic....

Most "gun violence" stats include suicides and accidents, neither of which I consider "violence" anymore than alcohol related deaths.

[graciegirl]

In the news this morning, investigators have discovered large money transfers into Syed's bank account long before the terrorist attack, and two transfers to the account of his mother. Details of this will emerge as the probe continues. If this is a sleeper cell, the FBI will figure it out, unless some higher authority shuts them down. In the meantime, the family "knew nothing of their son's anti-American activity"; they are, after all, peaceful muslims.

BTW, Their accomplice is spilling his guts to authorities as we speak. Evidently, the pipe bombs found were designed to kill first responders. Stay tuned...



Bump to focus on terrorism not guns.


It seems to me most gun deaths appear daily in the urban poor neighborhoods and involve the drug trade which is illegal. It appears between young men in the drug business. If you don't want to be killed by them stay away from illegal drugs and don't worry about taking guns from people. People have guns that want them and the sorry ass losers who deal drugs will get them by taking them from people who have them legally.


Interested in knowing that the innocent family of the terrorists received large money transfers. I only know a few heros in this country on this subject and they are the first responders and the FBI. It seems people in high places are dancing the side step until forced to polka.


OOOps that was kind of taunting and I just yelled at that guy day before yesterday for taunting.

[Justus]

Most "gun violence" stats include suicides and accidents, neither of which I consider "violence" anymore than alcohol related deaths.

Amen!

[billethkid]

Here are some interesting/educational charts about gun events:

https://www.google.com/search?q=gun+homicides+vs+gun+ownership+chart&biw=1105&bih=500&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi54_TOxMzJAhXIox4KHcXADkIQsAQIGw

[graciegirl]

It seems that it is mostly men who talk about guns and mostly women who talk about ideology. Because testosterone programs men to protect and estrogen programs women to nurture?


There is a difference I think in how we view all violence too. I know that we in our home would each do anything to protect the lives of the others if a menacing person would try to harm any of us. (I COULD rip someone's eyes out)

[Chi-Town]

How about the men who talk about the size of their guns?[emoji6]

[graciegirl]

How about the men who talk about the size of their guns?[emoji6]





You are witty and very smart and a good person, but you just changed the subject again.


Is it bigotry to collectively call people conservative or liberal? I mean it is grouping people together and addressing them as if they were not individuals.

[billethkid]

You are witty and very smart and a good person, but you just changed the subject again.


Is it bigotry to collectively call people conservative or liberal? I mean it is grouping people together and addressing them as if they were not individuals.

I do believe this is the only way some can only speak with bravado about their beliefs.
Not only the grouping of people but the citing of either an individual or minority (not race) group as the general condition....my pet peeve.

[Steve9930]

All good thoughts Steve, to be sure. In addition to the movie you mention (and actually, the book!), I would also suggest taking a rainy weekend to watch "Lawrence of Arabia" for an even more historical perspective on developments in that region. And for a short, but informative, read that might add some value to the narrative, tty Amazon for a strategy paper published by the National Strategy Information Center titled "Oil, Politics & Sea Power in the Indian Ocean Vortex.". Sounds heavy but it brings a lot to the discussion of goings on in the region.
Ciao!!

Thank you for the additional background info, I will definitely look into it. In the movie "Charlie Wilsons War" the last statement by him at the end is very interesting. Proves we learn very little from history as we repeated the same mistake. Makes one wonder if the politics had not got in the way of reason back then, would we be in the situation we have today and would 9/11 have happened?

[Taltarzac725]

All good thoughts Steve, to be sure. In addition to the movie you mention (and actually, the book!), I would also suggest taking a rainy weekend to watch "Lawrence of Arabia" for an even more historical perspective on developments in that region. And for a short, but informative, read that might add some value to the narrative, tty Amazon for a strategy paper published by the National Strategy Information Center titled "Oil, Politics & Sea Power in the Indian Ocean Vortex.". Sounds heavy but it brings a lot to the discussion of goings on in the region.
Ciao!!

Thanks for the intelligent and educational post. :024:

[cologal]

Most "gun violence" stats include suicides and accidents, neither of which I consider "violence" anymore than alcohol related deaths.

But this string is about the San Bernardino Shooting which is clearly an act of gun violence.

Your quoting alcohol deaths is just an attempt to deflect

[goodtimesintv]

But this string is about the San Bernardino Shooting which is clearly an act of gun violence......


No, it's an act of MINDS exercising their thirst for death, butchery, and bloodbath, and for the sick thrills.

The guns, butcher knives, pipe bombs, crucifixion cross wood and nails, machetes, etc. are tools that do not function without a human, evil mind working the hands to execute the satanic acts.

[tomwed]

No, it's an act of MINDS exercising their thirst for death, butchery, and bloodbath, and for the sick thrills.

The guns, butcher knives, pipe bombs, crucifixion cross wood and nails, machetes, etc. are tools that do not function without a human, evil mind working the hands to execute the satanic acts.
Excellent point goodtimesintv.

[kcrazorbackfan]

I'm still liking the idea of those opposed to the Second Amendment posting "No Gun Zone" on their residences, in order to protect themselves - and their neighbors - in the event of a terrorist strike or home invasion...

That's good, though I doubt those that have such an aversion to guns will ever go :loco: and post those signs on their homes. Those opposed to the 2nd amendment are the ones I referred to in a post of mine as a helpless blubbering heap on the floor begging for their life if the unthinkable ever happens to them.

I applaud what Sheriff Ivey in Brevard Co. is calling for - citizens that are "legal" (with their CCL), to become proficient with their weapons and stop this s**t that is going on.

[billethkid]

But this string is about the San Bernardino Shooting which is clearly an act of gun violence.

Your quoting alcohol deaths is just an attempt to deflect

This thread is about an act of terrorism!!!

The radical islamist terrorists used both guns and bombs to carry out their vows to kill the infidels!!

[DeanFL]

But this string is about the San Bernardino Shooting which is clearly an act of gun violence.

Your quoting alcohol deaths is just an attempt to deflect
-----------------------
So, when 'infadels heads are cut off (including Americans) - do you consider that "Knife violence"?
Hit and run= "Vehicle Violence"?
Drowning = "Water Violence"?
Choking = Chicken bone violence?
Holocaust = Gas violence?

I could go on - but you get the message.
In other words ---- THE resultant MESSAGE and ISSUE is the most important.

Like a 13 minute Oval Office speech where 1/2+ of the content was Political = guns and perceived Muslim 'protection'. As Rahm Emanuel stated during his tenure at the White House-Chief of Staff - "You never want a serious crisis to go to waste." And his old boss - ALWAYS follows that rule.

Sorry for the Left turn - but applies to the topic on this post.

[graciegirl]

This thread is about an act of terrorism!!!

The radical islamist terrorists used both guns and bombs to carry out their vows to kill the infidels!!



I agree and those who don't want to talk about the very serious issue keep changing the subject to Guns.


Cologal....What do you think about Islamic terrorists and do you think any of this country are in danger? If so how much? If so what should be done? Other than talk about guns?


We are all on board with truth, justice and the American way. We are not on board with being afraid of people with or without guns who are somewhere in a room right now in THIS country plotting to kill us because we don't espouse their religion and/or because people who they agree with are being bombed in the Mideast.


To remind you Cologal. I don't have a gun. No guns in our home. But I may change my mind.

[Justus]

But this string is about the San Bernardino Shooting which is clearly an act of gun violence.

Your quoting alcohol deaths is just an attempt to deflect

You have unwittingly validated the arguments of virtually all of the posters herein: Dogma is dogma, whether it be extremist islam or extremist anti-gun. Dogma needs no rationale to attract slavish adherents, because its basis is purely emotional. By its nature, dogma does not - and will not - respond to reason, even in the face of overwhelming evidence.

All You Need to Know about the Gun Debate in Two Charts | Power Line (http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2015/12/all-you-need-to-know-about-the-gun-debate-in-two-charts.php)

[Jimturner]

If you kill me, I will not be concerned if it was an Islamic terrorist or a redneck skinhead that clams to be a Christian living next door. I am a gun owner an I am positive that we need more gun control in this country.

[goodtimesintv]

You have unwittingly validated the arguments of virtually all of the posters herein:

Dogma is dogma, whether it be extremist islam or extremist anti-gun. Dogma needs no rationale to attract slavish adherents, because its basis is purely emotional.

By its nature, dogma does not - and will not - respond to reason, even in the face of overwhelming evidence.

All You Need to Know about the Gun Debate in Two Charts | Power Line (http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2015/12/all-you-need-to-know-about-the-gun-debate-in-two-charts.php)

THIS says it all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[tomwed]

You have unwittingly validated the arguments of virtually all of the posters herein: Dogma is dogma, whether it be extremist islam or extremist anti-gun. Dogma needs no rationale to attract slavish adherents, because its basis is purely emotional. By its nature, dogma does not - and will not - respond to reason, even in the face of overwhelming evidence.

All You Need to Know about the Gun Debate in Two Charts | Power Line (http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2015/12/all-you-need-to-know-about-the-gun-debate-in-two-charts.php)
I'm mixed up.
Isn't this story saying that the CDC has not done a study on this subject since 1996?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/storyline/wp/2015/01/14/why-the-cdc-still-isnt-researching-gun-violence-despite-the-ban-being-lifted-two-years-ago/

Yet the chart to your link indicates otherwise

[Justus]

I'm mixed up.
Isn't this story saying that the CDC has not done a study on this subject since 1996?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/storyline/wp/2015/01/14/why-the-cdc-still-isnt-researching-gun-violence-despite-the-ban-being-lifted-two-years-ago/

Yet the chart to your link indicates otherwise

Tom, I will answer at the risk of raising Gracie's ire, which I am loath to do...sorry, Gracie...

The study I cited was performed by Mark Perry, a well-known authority specializing in Military, Intelligence and Foreign Affairs analysis, who retrieved the data directly from the CDC.

The CDC stopped performing its "analyses" years ago after they were revealed as biased by several responsible national organizations. For reasons of additional funding, the CDC would like to resume their "analyses", ergo the piece by their advocate, the Washington Post.

Here is a link you should look at:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Perry_(author)

[outlaw]

But this string is about the San Bernardino Shooting which is clearly an act of gun violence.

Your quoting alcohol deaths is just an attempt to deflect

It wasn't my intent to deflect. It is my honest opinion.

[tomwed]

Tom, I will answer at the risk of raising Gracie's ire, which I am loath to do...sorry, Gracie...

The study I cited was performed by Mark Perry, a well-known authority specializing in Military, Intelligence and Foreign Affairs analysis, who retrieved the data directly from the CDC.

The CDC stopped performing its "analyses" years ago after they were revealed as biased by several responsible national organizations. For reasons of additional funding, the CDC would like to resume their "analyses", ergo the piece by their advocate, the Washington Post.

Here is a link you should look at:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Perry_(author)
The Post story indicated that no CDC studies on this subject have been done since 1996? Unless the Post is incorrect, how could Perry retrieve the data on a study that was never performed?

[graciegirl]

I am so confused trying to follow this . One link on Perry was a blank and the CDC is the Center for Disease Control.


I understand about Dogma. I am trying to avoid it in my argument that I believe that Extreme Islam has targeted the U.S. and now that we cannot unlock and decipher online messages we are at a loss to know what the communications are about plans of known terrorists. In fact daily we probably are losing grasp of who the terrorists are here in the U.S.


Having a gun and knowing how to use it may keep you alive for awhile, but knowing if your water is safe to drink is another issue. There are all kinds of ways that someone or some group who want to harm innocent people can do so.


I have always thought myself to be a fairly calm and rational person but I am so confused by people who seem to be unaware of current events in the world and feel it isn't helpful to know what is happening. I am curious and a reader and my mind can be changed. I have voted both sides and become more and more moderate as I age.


Why do people keep showing things that are nice but so beside the point like folks hugging a man with a scarf over his head and a sign that says he is a Muslim?


Anyway. Somebody smart solve this problem. Is it solvable? Will this country eventually lose it's freedom?

[Justus]

The Post story indicated that no CDC studies on this subject have been done since 1996? Unless the Post is incorrect, how could Perry retrieve the data on a study that was never performed?

Tom, It's raw data, and anyone can retrieve it. The CDC is simply a default repository for this type of data. They did not analyze it. You could conceivably take their data and analyze it if you chose. Perry simply quoted his source of the raw data on which he performed his brilliant analysis. Period.

[biker1]

It appears that the data excludes gun-related suicides.

Tom, It's raw data, and anyone can retrieve it. The CDC is simply a default repository for this type of data. They did not analyze it. You could conceivably take their data and analyze it if you chose. Perry simply quoted his source of the raw data on which he performed his brilliant analysis. Period.

[Walt.]

It's been a while now and I've yet to see any mention that San Bernardino is a "sanctuary city." With practically round-the-clock coverage I can't imagine that this didn't come up as a subject in some newsroom somewhere. I wonder if the folks in San Bernardino thought that they would get some kind of "pass" on terrorism when it came to America.

[graciegirl]

I think that a lot of our opinions on the subject of extremists is based on how much news we watch. Because I am retired, and Wednesday is an "at home" day for me except for Art Studio in the morning, I returned last Wednesday and the shootings in San Bernardino had just come on all channels...all regular channels.


I watched it unfold, well into the night and for several days. I think when you are watching something happen in real time, you have a better idea about it. First it was thought to be a work place anger issue and it was a total surprise to watch them pull the dead shooters from the van and be told in a few minutes one of them was a woman.


I have that luxury now that I am older to watch the news and change the channel frequently. I also am interested in ideas and ideologies and world events, much more than when I was younger. I am more interested in history than when I was younger and I have from observing more than seven decades a better idea of how people generally react.


Like most people who aren't impaired,(lol) I have my opinions.


But I think they are informed opinions. I very much dislike hearing the biased opinions from commentators on Fox or CNN or MSNBC. I wish that journalism, the reporting of the news and not opinions dominated the news services. Some commentators are worse than others and no network is without political opinions.


I still say with that figured in that older people who have the time to watch the news probably know more about the world situation than those who still work. Or those who still play a lot. Not that you shouldn't be doing these things.


Just sayin.

[Justus]

I am so confused trying to follow this . One link on Perry was a blank and the CDC is the Center for Disease Control.


I understand about Dogma. I am trying to avoid it in my argument that I believe that Extreme Islam has targeted the U.S. and now that we cannot unlock and decipher online messages we are at a loss to know what the communications are about plans of known terrorists. In fact daily we probably are losing grasp of who the terrorists are here in the U.S.


Having a gun and knowing how to use it may keep you alive for awhile, but knowing if your water is safe to drink is another issue. There are all kinds of ways that someone or some group who want to harm innocent people can do so.


I have always thought myself to be a fairly calm and rational person but I am so confused by people who seem to be unaware of current events in the world and feel it isn't helpful to know what is happening. I am curious and a reader and my mind can be changed. I have voted both sides and become more and more moderate as I age.


Why do people keep showing things that are nice but so beside the point like folks hugging a man with a scarf over his head and a sign that says he is a Muslim?


Anyway. Somebody smart solve this problem. Is it solvable? Will this country eventually lose it's freedom?

Gracie, I'll start again. The reason I originally directed an apology to you was that this has more to do with guns.

So I posted this link to a study performed using the CDC raw data. The CDC had absolutely NOTHING to do with the study. Nothing! Something that was not clear to Tom. So here is that link:

All You Need to Know about the Gun Debate in Two Charts | Power Line (http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2015/12/all-you-need-to-know-about-the-gun-debate-in-two-charts.php)

The Wiki link was simply identifying the credentials of the expert who designed the graphs:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Perry_(author)

I really don't understand any confusion...thought it was pretty straightforward. Hope this helps.

[graciegirl]

Gracie, I'll start again. The reason I originally directed an apology to you was that this has more to do with guns.

So I posted this link to a study performed using the CDC raw data. The CDC had absolutely NOTHING to do with the study. Nothing! Something that was not clear to Tom. So here is that link:

All You Need to Know about the Gun Debate in Two Charts | Power Line (http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2015/12/all-you-need-to-know-about-the-gun-debate-in-two-charts.php)

The Wiki link was simply identifying the credentials of the expert who designed the graphs:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Perry_(author)

I really don't understand any confusion...thought it was pretty straightforward. Hope this helps.



Old Yeller, Your Wikipedia link to Mark Perry had no information...and a disclaimer...Click on it. I don't know who Mark Perry is. I will look him up.


I did, got this; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Perry_(author) Interesting. My link is blank too, but it wasn't what I just read and linked to on Wikipedia. Hmmmm.

[Justus]

Old Yeller, Your Wikipedia link to Mark Perry had no information...and a disclaimer...Click on it. I don't know who Mark Perry is. I will look him up.


I did, got this; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Perry_(author) Interesting. My link is blank too, but it wasn't what I just read and linked to on Wikipedia. Hmmmm.

Gracie, WIKI shut it down. It was there yesterday. Please do look up Mark Perry on Bing; he is a brilliant man and an expert on Foreign Affairs, Terrorism, etc.

[graciegirl]

Gracie, WIKI shut it down. It was there yesterday. Please do look up Mark Perry on Bing; he is a brilliant man and an expert on Foreign Affairs, Terrorism, etc.



Why did Wiki shut it down?

[Justus]

Why did Wiki shut it down?

My non-cynical guess is that they had so many hits they couldn't handle it.

My guts say they realized to their horror that it didn't fit their agenda. WIKI is biased. That's just my guts based on past experience.

[graciegirl]

My non-cynical guess is that they had so many hits they couldn't handle it.

My guts say they realized to their horror that it didn't fit their agenda. WIKI is biased. That's just my guts based on past experience.


Good Lord. I hope you are wrong.

[Justus]

Good Lord. I hope you are wrong.

I have that same hope quite often lately...time will tell. BTW, you know much more than you give yourself credit for...Just an observation.

[Walt.]

... or that Muslims entering the country should be temporarily halted until they can be cleared properly.

Both examples are ugly and destructive to a unified populace, but at least people know what they're voting for in general election. And again, nobody is boosting Bernie to the top on his side, so they have an honest choice in Nov.

Maybe I'm missing something. What is "ugly and destuctive" about halting and clearing properly?

[goodtimesintv]

Maybe I'm missing something. What is "ugly and destuctive" about halting and clearing properly?

Nothing. But the opposition and the Media do not mention that clause when they pump keeping people out because of their religion (that is their theocracy-government). They only repeat the "keep them out because of religion", "religious test", ugly part.

I saw talking heads arguing last night that Trump's ban is "unconstitutional" because of Article 6 saying "no religious test". But this is wrong, because the Article refers to people seeking to hold public office, NOT foreign nationals entering the country:

"The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the members of the several state legislatures, and all executive and judicial officers, both of the United States and of the several states, shall be bound by oath or affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States."

[graciegirl]

Cops have an issue going into the South Bronx and Bed Sty also. Mostly Baptists, 7th day Adventists and such...



But those folks are shooting about drugs. Radical Islam does not use drugs or eat pork. At least that is what they are supposed to do.

[RickeyD]

But those folks are shooting about drugs. Radical Islam does not use drugs or eat pork. At least that is what they are supposed to do.


The 911 JV team partied like there would be no tomorrow before they boarded those planes. Sex, drugs & rock n roll was on their plate, not sure bout the bacon though.

[tomwed]

Tom, I will answer at the risk of raising Gracie's ire, which I am loath to do...sorry, Gracie...

The study I cited was performed by Mark Perry, a well-known authority specializing in Military, Intelligence and Foreign Affairs analysis, who retrieved the data directly from the CDC.

The CDC stopped performing its "analyses" years ago after they were revealed as biased by several responsible national organizations. For reasons of additional funding, the CDC would like to resume their "analyses", ergo the piece by their advocate, the Washington Post.

Here is a link you should look at:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Perry_(author)

Mark Perry is an author. This seems to be where he got his chart and data.
Gun homicides steady after decline in ’90s; suicide rate edges up
Gun homicides steady after decline in (http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/10/21/gun-homicides-steady-after-decline-in-90s-suicide-rate-edges-up/)

"The nation’s overall gun death rate has declined 30% since 1993. This total includes homicides and suicides, in addition to a smaller number of fatal police shootings, accidental shooting deaths and those of undetermined intent. For example, in 2013 there were 467 fatal police shootings, up from 333 in 2009. (Government data on fatal police shootings are also collected and reported by the FBI, though the agency acknowledges there are discrepancies between federal and local law enforcement counts.)"

I find that interesting.

I think I understand. Mark Perry got his data from the CDC who got it from the Pew Foundation that did the polling.

"The public has been divided on the issue of gun ownership in recent years. In our July survey, 50% said it is more important to control gun ownership and 47% said it is more important to protect the right of Americans to own guns. Support for controlling gun ownership has declined; throughout the 1990s and early 2000s, a majority of Americans said it was more important to control gun ownership."

It sounds like an even split of this subject. Why do the news sources make it so difficult to unravel?

[Johnd]

56655

[biker1]

As I recall from Engineering Statistics class a long time ago, correlation does not imply causation.


56655

[xcaligirl]

I heard the two handguns were obtained legally but never really heard that the other two guns that were used in the attack were "legally obtained". I heard several reports that he got them from a friend/old roommate. If that is true, that's no a legal purchase!

[graciegirl]

I heard the two handguns were obtained legally but never really heard that the other two guns that were used in the attack were "legally obtained". I heard several reports that he got them from a friend/old roommate. If that is true, that's no a legal purchase!



The friend obtained them legally. He was a friend from childhood and was in the process of becoming a Muslim. The two men had conspired about four years ago to "do something" but but decided against it. His friend is married to a Russian immigrant whose sister is married to Fyeed Farook's brother, also named Fyeed Farook.


The friend checked himself into a mental health facility on the day of the the attacks. He is now being questioned by authorities. Yesterday the FBI was searching a pond near the area of the shootings.


More coming you can bet.

[graciegirl]

56655



How many murders were instigated by drugs; taking them, buying them, selling them, not paying for them?


I would guess that those murders are by far the highest number and THOSE gun owners are to me, the most dangerous, well next to terrorists.


Remember, I don't have a gun and we aren't gunners. But I may change my mind. The second amendment is in place if I ever want to change my mind.

[Jimturner]

Let's issue guns to everyone qualified and put a bounty on proven terrorist and felons.