End of the USA?

[samhass]

I have found this article several times and each time I read it I get infuriated and a little frightened.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123051100709638419.html

[TallerTrees]

Sam:

Just curious -- I can understand infuriated (to a lesser degree however), but why are you frightened?

[graciegirl]

We have been raised to believe in the omipotence of the United States. It is frightening to even READ of this wonderful country ever ending.

[samhass]

Tall, doesn't this remind you of the old days and the cold war? The
psychological warfare of the old days screams from that paper. Are we returning to the cold war or worse? Does the USA still have what it takes to be a superpower? Have we become undone by our greed and sense of entitlement?

[ConeyIsBabe]

THANKS for the heads-up on this issue. I read the article, well most of it; IMHO his prediction would make a very good sci-fi movie!!

The prediction does not scare me but perhaps that's because I'm clueless when it comes to politics/business/world trade/economics.

Food for thought, though :ohdear:

[TallerTrees]

Tall, doesn't this remind you of the old days and the cold war? The
psychological warfare of the old days screams from that paper. Are we returning to the cold war or worse? Does the USA still have what it takes to be a superpower? Have we become undone by our greed and sense of entitlement?
Yes to all of those Sam. The US can stay a superpower, but now from weakness. Peace through strength. Look at Israel -- the more land they gave to Palestians, the more rockets and no peace. Now that they are bombing Hamas to kingdom come, look at the world coming out and telling them to stop. Ridiculous.

I don't like Obama's Clintonistas. We've been there done that. I love this country, but if our corrupt leadership and ignorant citizens keep up this pace, I'm prepared to meet my maker.

[Belle]

I do believe we are in for a drastic change in our country, because of the greed and dishonesty among the higher powers in our government and businesses. We don't seem to be united in anything anymore and so divided that we don't know what this country really stands for. I love this country and think it's the best on this earth. I sincerely hope that things can turn around before it's too late. We, the people, are the only ones who can change things. We have to let our voice be heard.

[joannej]

U.S. troops are already being trained for civil unrest in the U.S. if an uprising takes place because of the economy. Surprised? Think about it. If one has no job, no home, no food, no water, and none of the necessities an individual works hard to achieve, there will be discontentment, perhaps in forms we never dreamed of. One only has to look at the past to learn for the future: Poland, E/Germany, Russia, and many other governments/civilizations that changed because people's basic needs were not met. We are not immune to change in the U.S. We can only hope and pray that our new President will be able to change the direction we were headed to in the past, and save our nation from greed for future generations. Now is the time to look beyond our pettiness and concentrate on what we can do individually to affect a better outcome for our country. Per the article, many other countries are looking at us in ways that should shock us out of our apathy. (NIMBY)

[SteveZ]

U.S. troops are already being trained for civil unrest in the U.S. if an uprising takes place because of the economy. Surprised? Think about it. If one has no job, no home, no food, no water, and none of the necessities an individual works hard to achieve, there will be discontentment, perhaps in forms we never dreamed of. One only has to look at the past to learn for the future: Poland, E/Germany, Russia, and many other governments/civilizations that changed because people's basic needs were not met. We are not immune to change in the U.S. We can only hope and pray that our new President will be able to change the direction we were headed to in the past, and save our nation from greed for future generations. Now is the time to look beyond our pettiness and concentrate on what we can do individually to affect a better outcome for our country. Per the article, many other countries are looking at us in ways that should shock us out of our apathy. (NIMBY)
I beg to differ. US troops today receive considerably more training than ever before on urban warfare and dealing with civil unrest - but not for action on US territory. The authorities and protections which severely restrict what US troops, even the National Guard, are legion, and they prescribe several legal steps which must be accomplished before any US troops can be used for a domestic incident, how the funding will be disbursed because troop commitments cost a lot of money and payment must be made by either the State(s) or the feds under tight scrutiny, and specifically what is to be done must be articulated in very specific form.

The U.S. Northern Command is responsible for when troops are used domestically, and NORTHCOM doesn't do anything without tremendous coordination with the Department of Homeland Security and the Department of Justice.

We're just not that bad off....

[joannej]

Steve Z,

Check out this article: http://bbvm.wordpress.com/2008/12/03/washington-post-20000-more-us-troops-to-be-deployed-for-“domestic-security”/

There are other articles about this subject on the web (just Goggle the subject matter).

[Sidney Lanier]

Steve Z,

Check out this article: http://bbvm.wordpress.com/2008/12/03/washington-post-20000-more-us-troops-to-be-deployed-for-“domestic-security”/

There are other articles about this subject on the web (just Goggle the subject matter).

Thank you, joannej, for posting this link. I was aware of some of the content but I had never seen it so clearly spelled out. And this in a solid, daily newspaper, not some over-the-edge online blog.

I am struck by the potential meaning of the following quote from a previous post: "We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm." We need to give some thought to who it is who potentially 'would do us harm.' Although it might be, is it necessarily the obvious? When the Murrah Building in Oklahoma City was bombed, many immediately jumped to the conclusion that somehow Islamic terrorists were responsible. Instead, it turned to be good old American, former U.S. Army, Timothy McVeigh, who got off easy via capital punishment instead of rotting in jail and counting his hours and days for the rest of his life.

What will motivate contemporary Americans to turn around from the apathy that's so prevalent today? Every election we hear cries of 'Throw the bums out of office!' and we proceed to reelect the incumbents. I've often said (granted a little cynically) that Americans would take to the streets if somehow television could be turned off nationwide for 72 hours, but somehow I don't think this is what is in mind relating to the article whose link joannej posted....

[SteveZ]

Steve Z,

Check out this article: http://bbvm.wordpress.com/2008/12/03/washington-post-20000-more-us-troops-to-be-deployed-for-“domestic-security”/

There are other articles about this subject on the web (just Goggle the subject matter).
Am familiar with the articles, the law involved, and the "domestic security" structure and response plans. Suffice to say that it's my business to understand this stuff.

NORTHCOM is not in the "military takeover of domestic security" business. The federal response to any emergency situation is formatted according to an orchestrated script based on situations and civilian authority. A lot of information on the Emergency Response System - how it's organized, who does what and when - is available at www.FEMA.gov within its "training" pages and is accessible by everyone.

To many who watch CNN, the federal response to anything seems disjointed, but that's mainly due to the reporters themselves not understanding (or ignoring) the process, the federal support hierarchies, what the Principal Federal Official (PFO) does, how a Common Operating Picture is maintained, how the various federal operations centers coordinate the support, and the fact that at all ttimes the Department of Justice (usually through the FBI) provides the Principal Law Enforcement Official to support the PFO in maintaining civilian control over the event.

We're just not in a "Seven Days in May" posture, and the checks and balances keep it from happening.

[Yoda]

Is it only boomers who are afraid?

I do not know anyone who is getting forclosed because they cannot pay the mortgage. Do you? I do know some who walked away from upside down mortgaes.

When the unemployment rate was 5% I did not know anyone who is unemployed, other than by choice. Now that it is 6.7%, I still don't.

Will times be different? Sure they will. I didn't have much fun in the 80's.

America as we know it will always be here. We will leave it to our kids.

Just some thoughts from a non-boomer (older)

God Bless America

[Sidney Lanier]

I do not know anyone who is getting forclosed because they cannot pay the mortgage. Do you? I do know some who walked away from upside down mortgaes.

When the unemployment rate was 5% I did not know anyone who is unemployed, other than by choice. Now that it is 6.7%, I still don't.

Yes, our home up north is in a rural area in New York State with low population density, and we know people in (so far) three homes being foreclosed. The daughter and son-in-law of close friends in New Hampshire were just foreclosed after they'd been unable to pay their mortgage for close to a year, due to loss of jobs.

We know a fair number of people (besides those in the homes being foreclosed, one of which also involves a serious illness) who are unemployed, including one of our sons. Another of our sons who works for one of the big national banks has a job that is very shaky (as well as three children and a mortgage). Ironically, our son with the most secure job is a grocery clerk. We have friends whose son in California created a business of emptying houses that have been walked away from by people who, presumably, at least for some, became unemployed and were consequently unable to pay their mortgages.

It's very easy for us relatively comfortable retired folk who drank the water, fell in love with the TV lifestyle, may or may not have 'suffered' paper losses in the stock market and 401K plans and the like, but who are living the good life to not notice what is happening in, for lack of a better phrase, 'the real world out there.' Reading The Daily Sun doesn't necessarily give us a true picture of life throughout the U.S.

In other words, yes, foreclosures in huge numbers are real, and an unemployment rate of no matter what the percentage is represents folks who are out of work. We can read/hear about 1,000 or whatever number laid off from this or that large company and it sounds like a number, but these are lives, these people have families, and even right here in TV we don't have to look further than Circuit City going into Chapter 11 and Linens & Things closing outright--and just prior to Christmas too. How insensitive or in denial can we continue to be?...

[Belle]

I agree with Sidney. My NY home is in the Hudson River Valley region that has seen a rapid growth after 9/11. However, I am hearing of more foreclosures in this area. I personally know of 2 very well educated young men who have lost their jobs. My son-in-law had to struggle to get his Masters in education so that he could have a more secure job. Now they struggle to meet their mortgage because income is lower. Most of my friends do not want to look at their 401K's. I have always been a conservative investor, so I still continue to earn on mine. I have been blest and am comfortable, but I see many around me suffering. It is time for us (who are secure) to help those who are in need. If you know of any food pantry in need of help, please let me know.

[Sidney Lanier]

I agree with Sidney. My NY home is in the Hudson River Valley region that has seen a rapid growth after 9/11. However, I am hearing of more foreclosures in this area. I personally know of 2 very well educated young men who have lost their jobs. My son-in-law had to struggle to get his Masters in education so that he could have a more secure job. Now they struggle to meet their mortgage because income is lower. Most of my friends do not want to look at their 401K's. I have always been a conservative investor, so I still continue to earn on mine. I have been blest and am comfortable, but I see many around me suffering. It is time for us (who are secure) to help those who are in need. If you know of any food pantry in need of help, please let me know.

We live right across the Hudson River from Belle. Our area may have seen growth since 9/11 because of its relative proximity to New York City (an approximately two plus hours commute), and perhaps that growth helped us forget the decimation of our area in the 1990s when, in an effort to maximize shareholder profits and continued enormous salaries and perks for high ranking officers, IBM laid off huge numbers of people worldwide, 25% of which were within 40 miles of where Belle and we live. For those who see unemployment figures as just that--meaningless figures--these numbers represent whole families AND the owners and their families of adjunct businesses (pizza places, dry cleaners, you name it). Countless foreclosures....

Belle, and others who feel as she and we do, please see my posts asking for small items as charitable donations in threads that include 'Post-Christmas' in their titles on the 'Wanted to Buy' forum. (The owners of this forum placed my request for charitable support in this seemingly unlikely forum....) One of the groups that our Classic Car Show has supported is the St. Charles Borromeo Food Pantry in Gardiner, NY. We give away countless door prizes, an enticement to spectators to attend, and (as requested in the 'Post-Christmas' post) if you've received little Christmas gifts that you have no use for and no one among your family and friends wants, PLEASE consider donating them to us. Our son who will be visiting in January will bring them back up north for us to be used in October 2009; otherwise we'll bring them when we snowbirds return to the Hudson Valley. Many thanks!

[Yoda]

I guess I have been sheltered or things are not as bad in Boston. I was not sheltered in the stock market. I didn't have paper loses they are real.

I still have faith in America and it's people.

[billethkid]

the media dwells only on the negative...

7% unemployment = 93% still working!!!!

foreclosures up 50% = less than 3% of all mortgages = 97% still happy.

It is in the best interest of the media and politicians to have you believe the sky is falling....it is so prevalent in our lives that if the media kept saying everyday the sky is falling like they talk about unemployment and foreclosures....there would be a lot of people outside looking to see if they could see the sky actually fall.

The more the media can get one to hover and hang on every word they speak the more control they have in what one believes....and when the media is one's major or only input there is no ability to differentiate....hence way toooooo many American continue to think things are much worse than they really are.

Most of us don't come in contact with those who are out of work or in foreclosure because (dare I say it?) they are in the minority.

Turn off the boob tube....do some research....but American (if you can find any)....always look at the bright side....and by all means do not listen to the politicians, the insecure you feel, the better they feel.

Happy New Year....it can still be a good day even when it is raining outside.!!

BTK

[Belle]

I agree with BTK, keep looking on the bright side. However, I feel that we must keep informed about what is going on. That's partly what got us here. We kept in our little corner with our heads in the sand while politicians did their thing with our money. Don't just watch one news station, watch them all to get a broader outlook on what's going on in this world. Take the facts and discard the newscasters opinion. Your opinion does count and you can make a difference. Let your politicians know what you think and support. I believe we can make a change.

As far as unemployment goes, I live on a road with 6 houses. Two of my neighbors have had to find other jobs. My one neighbor has been constantly getting new jobs because of companies in trouble. My friend who works for DHL and has a few years till retirement is wondering if he will have a job or even have the company retirement. Visit a food pantry and you'll see that there are many people hurting. The food pantries are running out of food. My mother told me that she and my father had jobs during depression and helped to feed the neighborhood. We can make it and become a better country, if we all pitch in and help others.

[Yoda]

the media dwells only on the negative...

Turn off the boob tube....do some research....but American (if you can find any)....always look at the bright side.....

Happy New Year....it can still be a good day even when it is raining outside.!!

BTK


Thank you for identifying my "problem." I am a sworn "Brightsider."

Any day on this side of the lawn can be a good day.

Yoda