The Stimulus Package

[Guest]

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=YjcyODIyZGM2MGU1ZDdkNDgxZDc3OTNjYjM4ZDY1ODI

[Guest]

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=YjcyODIyZGM2MGU1ZDdkNDgxZDc3OTNjYjM4ZDY1ODI
In the end, the only thing being "stimulated" is Special Interests which could not get a dime if their "requests" were given single-bill or single-amendment open scrutiny. However, with the administration trying to ramrod in one swoop all this kiss-butt spending - which we will be stuck with for many years once the "initial" funding goes in place - the middle class gets screwed again. Now we can see why there is such a rush to get this bill passed - as most of the money is nothing but payoffs and pork.

When you get your tax bill next year and subsequent years, remember who voted for this absurdity.....

[Guest]

I agree that some of the proposed expenditures are not worthwhile and would burden our society for years to come. What expenditures would be considered constructive and worthwhile?
Maybe we can start a list....

I would rank unemployment benefits a must. Designate money to repair our highways and rail systems, funding to retrain our job force, a tax cut for the middle class and lower business taxes.

[Guest]

pick those pork entities that have absolutely nothing to do with "stimulating" the economy. Foe example the millions earmarked for STD (sexually transmitted diseases). And many more obvious like it. It is business as usual in Washington, DC.
Obama says let's not waste time trying to get it perfect, just pass it!!
Now just where is the change in the processing of this piece of legislation? Don't strain the gray matter...there is none.
Business as usual and Obama is NOT edicting get the fluff out...only ram rodding, get it done.

How much more simple could it be than to stand tall and tell the insider cronies to cull out the pork that is totally, completely un related to stimulating the economy.

Another example of Washington insider practices being continued by a Washington insider administration....talking change....but walking same-o-same-o!!!!

New administration.....SOS...the polite version= same old stuff.

Too much of a hurry to do it right....really sends a message to the law makers eh? barf

BTK

[Guest]

pick those pork entities that have absolutely nothing to do with "stimulating" the economy. Foe example the millions earmarked for STD (sexually transmitted diseases). And many more obvious like it. It is business as usual in Washington, DC.
Obama says let's not waste time trying to get it perfect, just pass it!!
Now just where is the change in the processing of this piece of legislation? Don't strain the gray matter...there is none.
Business as usual and Obama is NOT edicting get the fluff out...only ram rodding, get it done.

How much more simple could it be than to stand tall and tell the insider cronies to cull out the pork that is totally, completely un related to stimulating the economy.

Another example of Washington insider practices being continued by a Washington insider administration....talking change....but walking same-o-same-o!!!!

New administration.....SOS...the polite version= same old stuff.

Too much of a hurry to do it right....really sends a message to the law makers eh? barf

BTK

Rep. Pelosi recently said that she estimates the number of people unemployed in the US at 11 million workers. Ironically, the number of illegal aliens in the US is estimated at between 15-20 million, and 2/3rd of them would be "workers."

So, it would seem a reasonable "stimulus" would be to remove/isolate illegal aliens from the workplace, and those jobs now being done by illegals would be available to US workers. Employers would have to pay competitive wages for the US workers, and the money would cycle within the US economy instead of a significant percentage leaving the US via foreign remittance.

There are no jobs Americans won't do, but the wage needs to be commensurate to the labor.

Continued condoning of illegal alien labor in any form is tantamount to condoning economic slavery.

Let's be clear - much of the world is dependent on US consumerism. Until we build our economy back, we can't assist the rest of the world in their economic recovery. So, let's stop encouraging illegal alien labor use, as it keeps Americans out of work and exploits peoples who further seek public assistance to remain and survive in the US.

Rep. Pelosi wants the US to borrow $900Billion to help employ a large percentage of the 11 million unemployed American workers AND keep the illegal alien population "employed" in slave-wage conditions as well AND fund a slew of feel-good special-interest programs.

That's a good deal ? ?

[Guest]

I thought that President Obama campaigned against what he called the "politics of fear"

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090205/ap_on_go_pr_wh/congress_stimulus_126

[Guest]

since winning the election.
He continues to headline how bad things are and how long it will take to fix.
Now being POTUS for all of two weeks he has the insight to make a statement that either give me my bill or we may never recover from recession! Wow what insight....counter to every historical record of recessions and recovery.
Another historic event in the making? The USA possibly never recovering from recession.
He is peddling fear as fast as his speech writers can put it to paper.
I am so anxious to see the miracle of this stimulous package. So far the fed sent out checks to all last year...result....zip!
The government bailout of $700 billion had to be passed quickly to get the US economy in recovery as fast as possible...result....zip.
Now the new administration is singing the same hymn from the political handbook, laced with fear of do this or else. New adminstration....same music...no change!!!!!
When they do pass it maybe we can all eat pork!!:1rotfl:

In my opinion, if this miracle threat bill does not show some improvement what could possibly be the next wishful act? The real fear should be if the miracle does not work....then what?
Eventually enough time will pass...the economy will begin to improve but not as a result of any of the rescues, bail outs or stimulations. It would have happened over time without all the political bluster and bull feces.

Time for some cheerleading and encouragement and hang up the hand wringing and the sky may fall rhetoric. It doesn't cost nearly as much.

BTK

[Guest]

The rest of the world has thought us stupid in recent years. And in November we proved it. We have employed the fox to govern the hen house, and the cost will be extreme. The founding fathers of this Republic must be spinning in their graves!

[Guest]

The rest of the world has thought us stupid in recent years. And in November we proved it. We have employed the fox to govern the hen house, and the cost will be extreme. The founding fathers of this Republic must be spinning in their graves!

And employing the Geezer and the Dingbat would have been somehow smart???:beer3:

[Guest]

And employing the Geezer and the Dingbat would have been somehow smart???:beer3:
Let's be realistic - the President is not the all-knowing guru on economics, but rather is the water-carrier for the Democratic Congress who is shoving the largest pork-pie in history at breakneck speed, and using the recession as the reason for avoiding scrutiny, to feather the party nest via special interest payoffs and "social" programs which could never stand public review otherwise.

To try to sneak in The great condom purchase, ACORN funding, increases to the National Endowment for the Arts, etc. at a time when many Americans are nervous about jobs, keeping their homes, etc is SICKENING as line items in an "economic stimulus" package, and the authors of those (and other similar) line items should be made public for the opportunists they are.

I'm surprised there is not a ground-swell of anger from average-American Democrats, because their party leadership has snookered them under the guise of bailouts to protect average Americans.

We can disagree on whether bailouts are necessary to prop up the economy, and disagree in good faith. However, this blatant budget expansion for pet projects and obvious payoffs to special interests has no place in a piece of legislation publicized as a life preserver for the economy.

Where's the hurry on Condom-Gate, NEA funding, ACORN funding, etc ? ? ? Why can't those items go through the regular legislative process? Who's kidding whom here !

[Guest]

"Who's kidding who here?" You're all kidding yourselves if you think anyone, ANYONE, can step into office and after only two weeks, clean up the putrid mess left by George Bush. :ohdear:

[Guest]

I certainly wish "There are no jobs Americans won't do," was true. The question is how well will they do those jobs? Many of our offspring have an incredible sense of entitlement. I still contend that a man/woman unwilling
to give you an honest days labor at a lower wage scale will not work any better at a higher wage. It's about work ethic and many Americans need a healthy dose. I am not painting all Americans with this brush. Many of us have worked exceptionally hard and have sacrificed to live the American dream. Many are still doing so. I just don't buy into the argument that all Americans are hardworking. I do know many Americans will not be willing to pay the price of goods if we get rid of all the alien laborers.




Rep. Pelosi recently said that she estimates the number of people unemployed in the US at 11 million workers. Ironically, the number of illegal aliens in the US is estimated at between 15-20 million, and 2/3rd of them would be "workers."

So, it would seem a reasonable "stimulus" would be to remove/isolate illegal aliens from the workplace, and those jobs now being done by illegals would be available to US workers. Employers would have to pay competitive wages for the US workers, and the money would cycle within the US economy instead of a significant percentage leaving the US via foreign remittance.

There are no jobs Americans won't do, but the wage needs to be commensurate to the labor.

Continued condoning of illegal alien labor in any form is tantamount to condoning economic slavery.

Let's be clear - much of the world is dependent on US consumerism. Until we build our economy back, we can't assist the rest of the world in their economic recovery. So, let's stop encouraging illegal alien labor use, as it keeps Americans out of work and exploits peoples who further seek public assistance to remain and survive in the US.

Rep. Pelosi wants the US to borrow $900Billion to help employ a large percentage of the 11 million unemployed American workers AND keep the illegal alien population "employed" in slave-wage conditions as well AND fund a slew of feel-good special-interest programs.

That's a good deal ? ?

[Guest]

I certainly wish "There are no jobs Americans won't do," was true. The question is how well will they do those jobs? Many of our offspring have an incredible sense of entitlement. I still contend that a man/woman unwilling
to give you an honest days labor at a lower wage scale will not work any better at a higher wage. It's about work ethic and many Americans need a healthy dose. I am not painting all Americans with this brush. Many of us have worked exceptionally hard and have sacrificed to live the American dream. Many are still doing so. I just don't buy into the argument that all Americans are hardworking. I do know many Americans will not be willing to pay the price of goods if we get rid of all the alien laborers.

I absolutely, completely and totally agree SamHass!!:agree::agree:

[Guest]

The criticism is of the time worn, accomplish nothing new, by the same old insiders.....which factually is the make up of the new administration.

The said in the campaign there shall be no pork in bills during his tenure. That is all that is being measured. As Barney Frank (:1rotfl:....sorry can't even say the name without breaking up) pontificates....well it is 25% less pork than usual and while not perfect is an improvement. And then Obama chides...let's not waste time on perfection.
Nothing aimed at whether accomplished or not in ONLY TWO WEEKS!!!
The methodology is same-o-same-o, business as usual by the same-o same-o insiders who were there for the 5 presidents...incompetent re-elected to office by both parties....lead by imcompetent, lack luster, same-o same-o, accomplish nothing performance. And now condoned by our new, self professed change agent POTUS Obama on supposedly "...survival of the USA if you don't approve..." legislation.
The question of the thread is what happened to doing it right? No pork?
And for those always insistent on measuring according to Bush...methodology wise....no change!!!!!BTK

[Guest]

"Who's kidding who here?" You're all kidding yourselves if you think anyone, ANYONE, can step into office and after only two weeks, clean up the putrid mess left by George Bush. :ohdear:


NOBODY is criticizing the President for what you so eloquently refer to. Where did you hear any criticism of results ? Please post a link !!!

Have you read the posts and the news lately ?

[Guest]

I certainly wish "There are no jobs Americans won't do," was true. The question is how well will they do those jobs? Many of our offspring have an incredible sense of entitlement. I still contend that a man/woman unwilling
to give you an honest days labor at a lower wage scale will not work any better at a higher wage. It's about work ethic and many Americans need a healthy dose. I am not painting all Americans with this brush. Many of us have worked exceptionally hard and have sacrificed to live the American dream. Many are still doing so. I just don't buy into the argument that all Americans are hardworking. I do know many Americans will not be willing to pay the price of goods if we get rid of all the alien laborers.

So then it is perfectly fine to:

1.pay people below minimum wage.
2.not pay FICA, state unemployment insurance and the employer pocket the money.
3. expect county indigent health care funds to cover the health coverage of these workers and their families
4. condone identity theft via phony SS Cards and other ID cards
5. keep factories and other such facilities at below-OSHA requirements because the labor won't complain out of fear of being deported
6. continue having more and more jobs get "demoted" in pay and working conditions because there's always an illegal willing to do the job at any money
7. turn a blind eye on the living conditions of most illegals who try to live on slave wages because "out of sight, oout of mind"
8. and tthe biggest of them all - ignore 1-7 above because I don't want the prices of my goods to go up, no matter who gets hurt along the way.

I understand the motivation of the illegal allien who will do anything to support his/her family. I also understand and have seen first-hand over-and-over-again the results of the employer extortion and exploitation of these people - all to lower overhead and rise profits - knowing full well that most American consumers don't care, as long as the price of lettuce doesn't go over $2 a head, meat doesn't cost more, the grass gets cut cheaper than the lawn service which pays its employees according to the law of the land, and all such situations.

It's amazing how we can complain when our jobs and benefits get leveled or reduced, but don't give a hoot about the REAL economic slavery going on all around us.

And Chels - all the Bush bashing in the world has nothing to do with sleight-of-hand funding for ACORN, NEA, condom delivery and the other pork products which have NOTHING to do with any economic stimulus. George Bush is out of office - get over it - and if Pres Obama delivers on his campaign promises, GOOD! So far, he has hedged and reneged on his "consensus with tthe people" and anti-pork rhetoric, and is a willing participant in getting special interests funded through buried line items in the DEMOCRATIC-WRITTEN stimulus bill. So far, he's just shown himself as the Reid/Pelosi cheerleader on party-partisan, budget-swelling, payback-to-special-interest legislation. I don't care if he has been in office two days or two years. You don't get a "breaking-in period" as President - and he and his party leadership know that.

Oh yeah - condom makers, "artists" funded by NEA and ACORN employees need their jobs protected, too. What a crock!

[Guest]

And employing the Geezer and the Dingbat would have been somehow smart???:beer3:

I am sure you must be alluding to US Senator John McCain and Gov. Sarah Palin with your comments.

My reply to your question would be YES !!!!

It was discussed many times on this board that the McCain/Palin ticket was not one to get excited about, but the alternative was worse and we are seeing the results ALREADY, which is what shocks me...the speed and shocking jamming down our throats.

During the campaign, many said we are electing someone who is schooled and knows only socialism and we will give him a congress that is extreme left and socialist. Now, we have a "stimulus plan" that is becoming a total spending binge to support anything and everything socialist and we are told we must do it NOW. The same man who was so vociferious about the "politics of fear" is doing the same thing.

I suppose those who supported him want this, although the polls seem to be switching but you and I and all of us know that congress does not care...no matter how much the polls reflect our fear of this plan, there is no consideration of that....fact is the leaders keep saying how much we want it and that isnt a fact !!!!!

[Guest]

Kyaker,

No, I don't the GOP ticket would have been "somehow smart". And if you took my comments as an endorsement of the GOP ticket, you are wrong and you missed the point.

Actually, I think there were better choices available to both parties, and they both sold us down the river with their respective nominees.:cus:

Have a nice day!

[Guest]

Kyaker,

No, I don't the GOP ticket would have been "somehow smart". And if you took my comments as an endorsement of the GOP ticket, you are wrong and you missed the point.

Actually, I think there were better choices available to both parties, and they both sold us down the river with their respective nominees.:cus:

Have a nice day!
:agree:

[Guest]

Kyaker,

No, I don't the GOP ticket would have been "somehow smart". And if you took my comments as an endorsement of the GOP ticket, you are wrong and you missed the point.

Actually, I think there were better choices available to both parties, and they both sold us down the river with their respective nominees.:cus:

Have a nice day!

I can't wait to see the next bailout of our banking sytem coming down down the road. :agree::agree:

[Guest]

Kyaker,
No, I don't the GOP ticket would have been "somehow smart". And if you took my comments as an endorsement of the GOP ticket, you are wrong and you missed the point.
Actually, I think there were better choices available to both parties, and they both sold us down the river with their respective nominees.:cus:
Have a nice day!
:agree:There were better choices available to the respective parties. But we have to play the hand they deal us.
It seems that the only choices for the voters were "Change", "More of the Same", or "Useless". "Change" won by a convincing majority.

[Guest]

you outlined.....NO MATTER WHO WINS THE ELECTION!!

Just look at the more of the same circus that is underway with the pork filled stimulous package.

The only change evident to date is the fact there is a new POTUS with a whole slew of appointed Washington insiders.

And that is all that has changed to date. Oooops I forgot the other evident change is the retraction by the now POTUS that promises made during the campaign will be difficult to deliver.

We are suffering from more of the same propelled by an on the job training POTUS.

BTK

[Guest]

to the fact the bill the POTUS is ranting about is not a real stimulus plan.

While this is only one take (of many) it is revealing enough that we the people should be writing to our representatives to squash it and go for a REAL program:

http://inhofe.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=PressRoom.PressReleases&ContentRecord_id=4e7169a4-802a-23ad-4415-a737ffca72f7

Where is the jobs opportunity?
Where is the energy independence plan, which by itself would open substantial opportunities for jobs?
The spending programs do none of the above. So why are we the people letting the likes of Pelosi and Obama run us in the wrong direction?

Obama has put a check mark in the box for closing Gitmo. Big deal. Wait till you see what it does not do. And how much it will cost to relocate the terrorists. As well as allow some to return to their task of killing Americans.

Obama is exhibiting frustration that the bill, which is minimally stimulus, over it not being passed. Why? Because he wants to get another box checked in the first 100 days....whether it does the job or not.

The forecast is to be worse off one year from now as a result.

What is it going to take? I for one am in favor of a revolution. Yes, all out war against the Washington gang, including Obama, that are not doing what is needed.

SPENDING WILL NOT MAKE IT HAPPEN!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wait until the terrorist attack happens. Wait until the oil supply to the USA is interrupted.

We can live here in TV and feel secure. Well if you haven't experienced shortages from the panic buying here, just wait. What has happenined to date is only a precursor to the future.

What is it going to take...for we the people to wake up? Before it is too late...if it isn't already!!

BTK

[Guest]

Sen Inhofe is against the stimulus plan?
All the more reason to be in favor of it.

[Guest]

All he had to do was to get impatient with his own congress. The executive right thing to do was to tell them to take the bill back....strip out the pork....because I the candidate said there would be no pork on his watch.

But no. Instead he elects to take those that are fighting the pork, to task. Hence condoning what the Queen of Pork (Pelosi) is ram rodding.

Is he telegraphing he really doesn't want to impose on her turf?

To challenge his Congress to do what he pledged to the people would have been the right thing to do. Instead he chose to take the same-o same-o political position of not rocking the party boat.
Too bad. Doing what he promised or doing what is right did not get ANT play in his decision making.
For those of us waiting to see if he does the right thing....it is a disappointment....not a surprise...a disappointment...no walking the talk....just another politician.

BTK

[Guest]

Reduce Corp income tax to lowest in the world.

Zero Corp Income tax for any new mfg operation. manufacturing in the United States.

No capital gains tax for 10 years.

Make the Bush tax breaks perm.

Give $10,000 to every American citizen age 18 or over.

Give $15,000 tword the purchase of a primary resident. Must reside in it for 5 years.

As far as roads and bridges go, we have been paying for these through our taxes already. They have been wasting the money elsewhere.

Oh, I almost forgot. QUIT BLAMING GEORGE BUSH! There is a new guy responsible now.

[Guest]

Oh, I almost forgot. QUIT BLAMING GEORGE BUSH! There is a new guy responsible now.

Yeah! After all, it's not like he dug the deep pit we find ourselves in now...........oh, wait.:pepper2:

[Guest]

Yeah! After all, it's not like he dug the deep pit we find ourselves in now...........oh, wait.:pepper2:

Your defense of President Obama is admirable, and there is much validity to your point about the previous administration, although I, personally, place much more blame on the congress than the President. I DO blame him for not handling the first TARP payment appropriately for sure..he and Paulson.

Having said that, these first few weeks have completely floored me, even though I totally expected much of what is going on, just not this quickly.

I am struck that he campaigned against what he called "politics of fear"...yet he is practicing the same thing now.

I am struck that a man who more than anyone in recent memory campaigned on ethics.....yet he publicly defended folks who had not paid taxes and he knew it at the time he was defending them...of course he said "my screwup" AFTER it was too late. He says he did not push them to drop out and I ask WHY DIDNT HE ?

I am struck that a man who preached over and over that there would be NO PORK, is allowing and pushing for a bill totally loaded with a ton of it, EVEN TO THE DISGUST OF fellow Democrats.

I spoke against his election....gave many many reasons during the campaign. I knew I would be shown to be correct (for once in my stupid life, this was a no brainer_, but actually held hope that perhaps I was wrong and he was actually different than I thought and different than what we have had but it sure appears that President Obama is not only the same but much much more scarier because he has the likes of Rep Pelosi and Sen Reid

[Guest]

I watched most of the debate on the "Stimulus" package on C-SPAN 2. The most articulate and thoughtful speaker was.....John McCain. What we ended up with is "More of the same, you can believe in."
So this stimulus package is polling at 37% approvel. Obama is currenlty polling at 61% approvel. Let's watch that number.

[Guest]

Making his case in the most dire terms, President Barack Obama said that "if Congress does not quickly pass an economic stimulus package, the nation will slip into a crisis so deep that "we may be unable to reverse it."

What a disgraceful self serving lie.

[Guest]

Making his case in the most dire terms, President Barack Obama said that "if Congress does not quickly pass an economic stimulus package, the nation will slip into a crisis so deep that "we may be unable to reverse it."

What a disgraceful self serving lie.
The last time I saw such a performance, it was Robert Preston stating, "There's trouble in River City...."

And they fell for it.

[Guest]

including today's market sell off after Gaithersburg's long awaited plan to turn the finances around is...OJT by ALL the newbies.
It is always easier to do the job from afar...comment why things don't work when one does not have the wheel....however, once in the shoes...they ALL have to learn what it is they cannot do. And what happens when they do what.

It is sort of like a pie pan full of marbles and then pushing one more in...of course it will go in....after another one some where else pops out. They are learning...not so quickly...it is easy to say put in the marbles...where or how many come out is not so easy.

Remember when throwing billions at the problems used to at least generate some positives? Now they are throwing trillions with no result.

Maybe....IF....and WHEN...any of the money ever gets to we the people then maybe there will be an impact.....MAYBE....

Until then, just watch 'em pushing in the $$$$$$$ (marbles) and hoping for the best.

What is the next order of magnitude after trillion????:a040:

BTK

[Guest]

including today's market sell off after Gaithersburg's long awaited plan to turn the finances around is...OJT by ALL the newbies.
It is always easier to do the job from afar...comment why things don't work when one does not have the wheel....however, once in the shoes...they ALL have to learn what it is they cannot do. And what happens when they do what.

It is sort of like a pie pan full of marbles and then pushing one more in...of course it will go in....after another one some where else pops out. They are learning...not so quickly...it is easy to say put in the marbles...where or how many come out is not so easy.

Remember when throwing billions at the problems used to at least generate some positives? Now they are throwing trillions with no result.

Maybe....IF....and WHEN...any of the money ever gets to we the people then maybe there will be an impact.....MAYBE....

Until then, just watch 'em pushing in the $$$$$$$ (marbles) and hoping for the best.

What is the next order of magnitude after trillion????:a040:

BTKa worthless dollar.

[Guest]

I agree that there is no guarantee that the stimulus package will work. But after doing much reading, its clear that all the economic gurus and experts say there must be one or things could be much, much worse. And most of them want more money thrown in the pot than was done. I doubt that they're even telling us how bad things really are, because it would cause widespread panic. The economic hole we are in is so deep, I don't know if there is a shovel big enough to get us out. It may just take time for the pendulum to swing the other way. But at this point, I think the new administration is doing the best it can, give the ball of wax it inherited.

[Guest]

When Jimmy Carter left office we had 10% or higher unemployment, double digit inflation, 18% + mortgage rates, gas lines, a bank bail out or two, declining military, etc, etc, etc.

No multi-trillion dollar pork package was needed to fix it. Reagan cut taxes among other things and the economy came back rather quickly.

1. The government didn't inherit this ball of wax, they caused it.
2. They say the worst economy since the great depression and the only way to fix it is massive spending. Big Fat Lie.
3. Wide spread panic? Obama is doing everything he can to cause wide spread panic. That's the only way they will get their money and thus a private sector take over.
4. The American people are being scammed.
5. They will come back for more money when this doesn't work.
6. When the economy does come back... in spite of what they are doing make no mistake about it, they will come after our tax $$ in a big way.
7. People better wake up and start cleaning house the next election cycles and that includes Obama and his crew.

[Guest]

Let us not jump to judement here, rather let us begin studying the Chinese, Japanese, or worse yet Russian languages because when one of these countries or another buys our debt and calls for it to be paid.........we are behind the eight ball for sure. The Obama nation and it's ring leaders Pelosi and Reid have sabotaged the American people beyond what we could have lost in a real war, and it was done to us without one casualty. I only ask one question.......how many Democrats even bothered to read the bill before passing it yesterday so that Princess Pelosi could jet across the Atlantic to see the Pope?

[Guest]

The level of dishonestly, hypocrisy, incompetence and irresponsibility in congress is absolutely mind boggling. What's even more mind boggling is we sit back as a nation and let them do it and in many cases with blessings from those who seek to be ruled.

[Guest]

I agree that there is no guarantee that the stimulus package will work. But after doing much reading, its clear that all the economic gurus and experts say there must be one or things could be much, much worse. And most of them want more money thrown in the pot than was done. I doubt that they're even telling us how bad things really are, because it would cause widespread panic. The economic hole we are in is so deep, I don't know if there is a shovel big enough to get us out. It may just take time for the pendulum to swing the other way. But at this point, I think the new administration is doing the best it can, give the ball of wax it inherited.

TAJ...there are hundreds of economists who feel just the opposite, but for arguements sake, let us assume that we did in fact need a stimulus package.

I dont think the unread bill just passed is a stimulus bill...it is a spending bill and there is a big difference !!!

[Guest]

For example just read something that indicates that Robert Rector, a senior research fellow at Heritage Foundation and an important part of President Clinton's team and a recognized expert on poverty says this "stimulus" bill will kill all the welfare reform that was attempted by Clinton and he says now the more folks that states put of welfare the more welfare money they will get, something that Clinton was trying to reverse.

He claims that President Obama neglected to tell us that ONE THIRD of the money in this bill is for welfare. Interesting read !!

http://www.onenewsnow.com/Politics/Default.aspx?id=418786

[Guest]

With so many people out of work, and no jobs available, I don't see welfare as a bad thing.

[Guest]

With so many people out of work, and no jobs available, I don't see welfare as a bad thing.

From what I have read it is not a matter of welfare in itself....it is the creation of a WELFARE STATE...in that the more a state spends the more they can get. The reading I have seen indicates that President Clinton was all for welfare but did not want to create a WELFARE STATE !

[Guest]

I believe there should be help of some form FOR THOSE WHO TRULY NEED IT....VS those who know well how to use the system for self indulgence....like a family on food stamps still managing to buy cigarettes and booze.

In our current age of entitlement it the hand outs are ecpected and abused.

Most of the programs have very weak, ambiguous threshold qualifications and follow up, hence abuse and longevity in the program.

Use some of the funding to provide JOBS to people to administer the billions being tossed into the wind.....nah that makes too much sense.

There should be an expectation of some sort of work to be done to get the benefit like the old WPA.....why not?

BTK

[Guest]

I believe there should be help of some form FOR THOSE WHO TRULY NEED IT....VS those who know well how to use the system for self indulgence....like a family on food stamps still managing to buy cigarettes and booze.

In our current age of entitlement it the hand outs are ecpected and abused.

Most of the programs have very weak, ambiguous threshold qualifications and follow up, hence abuse and longevity in the program.

Use some of the funding to provide JOBS to people to administer the billions being tossed into the wind.....nah that makes too much sense.

There should be an expectation of some sort of work to be done to get the benefit like the old WPA.....why not?BTK

Great question. While there are likely more people than not that do genuinely need assistance, as is usually the case those that abuse the system tend to color the majority that do not.
I am a great fan of doing at least SOME kind of work in exchange for public assistance. Those of able mind and body could provide a plethora of services that communities are in dire need of, perhaps decreasing the cost of state and local governments. I am not sure of all the reasons something like this is put in place, but I suspect it has a lot to do with generations of families having been raised with a sense of entitlement and some simply knowing no other way. If you are never taught or shown anything different it tremendously lessens the odds of breaking out of the cycle.
We as a nation have tolerated/allowed this to become what it is, our complacency as the programs grew and generations 3 and 4 joined the fray is certainly a culprit. We allowed our lawmakers on BOTH sides of the isle to continue with it as business as usual. Question is...will we demand and receive something different?

[Guest]

I'm not the best at saying things, but I'd like to add something to this. Our company at home tried to help some of the needy each Christmas with a big project they developed. When you work with something like that, you see it all. I agree with those who have problems with people on welfare still buying their cigarettes, magazines, booze, or continue to have a baby every 9 months. Some even have late model cars in the drive. It shouldn't be allowed to happen in the system. Another thing we saw that I have a very real problem with is the way the welfare system appeared to work then (it could have changed by now). One lady we helped, did not qualify for any assistance from the welfare system because she had a minimum wage part-time job. She had been married and had 2 small children. He did a disappearing act on them. She was going to school to try a get a decent paying job.
Why can't the system help those who are trying to help themselves?

[Guest]

I'm not the best at saying things, but I'd like to add something to this. Our company at home tried to help some of the needy each Christmas with a big project they developed. When you work with something like that, you see it all. I agree with those who have problems with people on welfare still buying their cigarettes, magazines, booze, or continue to have a baby every 9 months. Some even have late model cars in the drive. It shouldn't be allowed to happen in the system. Another thing we saw that I have a very real problem with is the way the welfare system appeared to work then (it could have changed by now). One lady we helped, did not qualify for any assistance from the welfare system because she had a minimum wage part-time job. She had been married and had 2 small children. He did a disappearing act on them. She was going to school to try a get a decent paying job.
Why can't the system help those who are trying to help themselves?


I do not believe that ANYONE is against welfare for those who need it.

Presidents Reagan and Clinton both worked hard to enure that welfare was for those who should get it but encouraged folks to get to work.

The point is that this stimulus bill ENCOURAGES folks to go on welfare...the more on welfare the more the states get.

A link from today...

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article5733499.ece

[Guest]

I do not believe that ANYONE is against welfare for those who need it.

Presidents Reagan and Clinton both worked hard to enure that welfare was for those who should get it but encouraged folks to get to work.

The point is that this stimulus bill ENCOURAGES folks to go on welfare...the more on welfare the more the states get.

A link from today...

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article5733499.ece
And the more who go on the dole, the more the shrinking number of taxpayers have to support - and that means higher taxes.

The societal problems which have led to multi-generational families on welfare, or always in line for Toys for Tots while on a cellphone/IPOD, or sporting a $100 set of painted nails, or recently decorated with $1,000 worth of body art, are not going to be corrected by making welfare a "right."

We complain that unemployment is rising, but we still have over 10 million "undocumented" workers - and if you replaced them with the current US citizens who are unemployed, we'd have a ZERO unemployment rate.

The stock market is back at the same level as when the Dot.Com's tanked. It hasn't gotten worse than that, and the world survived without the US going $1Trillion+ further in debt.

Helping those who have found themselves in dire straights is an American tradition. Subsidizing families for generations only because the agencies which dispense the money need to keep a case-rate at a certain high to justify the jobs of the case workers and the agency itself seems what has happened. And what is to insure that when the "problems" have dissipated, that the government agencies and workers put in place to dispense this generation of funds will ever go away. Or will we have more give-aways in the future because we can't get rid of the give-away staff?

[Guest]

“The wise man saves for the future, but the foolish man spends whatever he gets.”

Proverbs 21:20

Seems we are also spending all that we don't have as well. How foolish does that make us?

[Guest]

“The wise man saves for the future, but the foolish man spends whatever he gets.”

Proverbs 21:20

Seems we are also spending all that we don't have as well. How foolish does that make us?

We made a decision in November to go this way...the country did it with their eyes wide open. This, and all the other antics already (waiving ethics rules, etc,) are just the beginning. It was predictable !

[Guest]

It's kind of interesting, yet also quite predictable that many are pronouncing every problem every day as "Obama's" and occuring since November. Let's at least keep in perspective the fact that he walked into a mess set in motion by those in office long before him and some of the irresponsible public at large. No president in history has walked into a situation of this magnitude, with no prior "rules for repair" to glean from. It is so easy to pronounce the present administration a failure this early into the process. Most prudent people realize that whatever unfortunate soul walked into this mess would untimately face the rath of the other party, and any candidate would have ample ammunition already in place to castigate him, ammunition put in place by those before him. More useless posturing that gets us no further ahead.
I am puzzled that people on either side of our pitiful partisan arguments can be haughty enough to think they can be completely right or completely wrong with regard to solutions to our present economic catastrophe. Lots of pundits on either side are so concrete in their assessment what what is right and wrong about the present "stimulus package"...where were all these brilliant scholars over the last several years as we sank deeper and deeper into the situation we now find ourselves in?
Again, it really seems quite predictable that any candidiate from any party that "won" this election would be almost immediately be the subject of the blame game from the start with "opponents" lashing out at them from the beginning because it is so easy to do so. I happen to think it is important to remember what/who got us here and keep some fair perspective as we attempt to navigate in unknown waters.
I cannot pretend to know what parts of this will ultimately be successful, and with honesty not many others can either. There are certainly parts of polices that we will all disagree with, but to simply condem every single step of the way is unrealistic at this point. Further, no matter who would have won this election, 4 years down the road we would not be back in the promised land, but it will be so easy to condemn at that point. I am doing my best to learn, voice opposition to things I don't agree with, support the things I do, and avoid blanket condemnations based on personality and tired political ideaolgy that really doesn't fit the present situation any longer.
I hope and pray daily that we achieve a collection of souls with the knowledge,insight,and ability to listen that will help guide us through this. There is no way we will all be satisfied every step of the way but some compromise, support, and willingness to change seem to be absolutely necessary to hope to achieve some success.

[Guest]

It's kind of interesting, yet also quite predictable that many are pronouncing every problem every day as "Obama's" and occuring since November. Let's at least keep in perspective the fact that he walked into a mess set in motion by those in office long before him and some of the irresponsible public at large. No president in history has walked into a situation of this magnitude, with no prior "rules for repair" to glean from. It is so easy to pronounce the present administration a failure this early into the process. Most prudent people realize that whatever unfortunate soul walked into this mess would untimately face the rath of the other party, and any candidate would have ample ammunition already in place to castigate him, ammunition put in place by those before him. More useless posturing that gets us no further ahead.
I am puzzled that people on either side of our pitiful partisan arguments can be haughty enough to think they can be completely right or completely wrong with regard to solutions to our present economic catastrophe. Lots of pundits on either side are so concrete in their assessment what what is right and wrong about the present "stimulus package"...where were all these brilliant scholars over the last several years as we sank deeper and deeper into the situation we now find ourselves in?
Again, it really seems quite predictable that any candidiate from any party that "won" this election would be almost immediately be the subject of the blame game from the start with "opponents" lashing out at them from the beginning because it is so easy to do so. I happen to think it is important to remember what/who got us here and keep some fair perspective as we attempt to navigate in unknown waters.
I cannot pretend to know what parts of this will ultimately be successful, and with honesty not many others can either. There are certainly parts of polices that we will all disagree with, but to simply condem every single step of the way is unrealistic at this point. Further, no matter who would have won this election, 4 years down the road we would not be back in the promised land, but it will be so easy to condemn at that point. I am doing my best to learn, voice opposition to things I don't agree with, support the things I do, and avoid blanket condemnations based on personality and tired political ideaolgy that really doesn't fit the present situation any longer.
I hope and pray daily that we achieve a collection of souls with the knowledge,insight,and ability to listen that will help guide us through this. There is no way we will all be satisfied every step of the way but some compromise, support, and willingness to change seem to be absolutely necessary to hope to achieve some success.


Your points are well taken and I understand your feelings. HOWEVER...

I, and others, predicted BEFORE President Obama was even the nominee that should he be elected that we would have an administration/congress (the perfect storm) that despite all the pretty words would be ultra political (waiving of ethics, attempt to control the census, etc) ultra government (Nothing like the current doings in WASH) and would lead us down this socialist path. My words are not those of someone who didnt say it BEFORE he was nominated. If you did ANY research on his background you would find that he is and was always of this mind.

He and the congress have done nothing to change my mind in any way...fact is they are doing it quicker. Someday the pretty oratory will wear thin and folks will wake up !!!!

I also might add since you mentioned this...NEVER have I said anything about President Obama personally...NEVER. He is a smart and obviously articulate man but there is nothing in his background that would indicate he will be anything but what he is..a smart politician who believes in socialism !

I will say what I have been saying since the election...I pray I am wrong....do not think there is a chance I am...but if I am, I will be here saying mea culpa, but thus far not even a hint of anything that could not have been predicted !!!

[Guest]

Your points are well taken and I understand your feelings. HOWEVER...

I, and others, predicted BEFORE President Obama was even the nominee that should he be elected that we would have an administration/congress (the perfect storm) that despite all the pretty words would be ultra political (waiving of ethics, attempt to control the census, etc) ultra government (Nothing like the current doings in WASH) and would lead us down this socialist path. My words are not those of someone who didnt say it BEFORE he was nominated. If you did ANY research on his background you would find that he is and was always of this mind.

He and the congress have done nothing to change my mind in any way...fact is they are doing it quicker. Someday the pretty oratory will wear thin and folks will wake up !!!!

I also might add since you mentioned this...NEVER have I said anything about President Obama personally...NEVER. He is a smart and obviously articulate man but there is nothing in his background that would indicate he will be anything but what he is..a smart politician who believes in socialism !

I will say what I have been saying since the election...I pray I am wrong....do not think there is a chance I am...but if I am, I will be here saying mea culpa, but thus far not even a hint of anything that could not have been predicted !!!

Knowing how sensitive you are to perceived criticism I went out of my way to make sure I did not address you personally. Do me the same favor and save your pronouncements on your perception of my depth of research for those interested in them. You are not acurate in your prononucements no do I care to be caught up in petty personality issues.
Further your opinions on what "mind" Obama is of are just that..opinions, no more right or wrong than those with differing opinions.
Finally, I "NEVER" addressed anything you said or didn't personally say.."NEVER"...so leave me out of it.
I am looking for those thoughts that are open minded, challenging, and looking to participate in seeking a solution, whether they fit my ideology or not. Tired old partisan blame tactics and ideology will not fit or work in today's situation and I have decided to move beyond them in my thought process.

[Guest]

Knowing how sensitive you are to perceived criticism I went out of my way to make sure I did not address you personally. Do me the same favor and save your pronouncements on your perception of my depth of research for those interested in them. You are not acurate in your prononucements no do I care to be caught up in petty personality issues.
Further your opinions on what "mind" Obama is of are just that..opinions, no more right or wrong than those with differing opinions.
Finally, I "NEVER" addressed anything you said or didn't personally say.."NEVER"...so leave me out of it.
I am looking for those thoughts that are open minded, challenging, and looking to participate in seeking a solution, whether they fit my ideology or not. Tired old partisan blame tactics and ideology will not fit or work in today's situation and I have decided to move beyond them in my thought process.

Sorry dont meet your standards...I promise to work at it.

First of all, OF COURSE what I say is my opinion SAME AS WHAT YOU SAY is yours. Is that not what this board is about ?

I shared NO perception of your research and in fact didnt even think about YOU when I was typing. In rereading perhaps I offended you with my misuse of the caps and you took that personally.

I surely will "leave you out of it" as you say....didnt think I "brought you into it"......you said in your post "based on personality" and that small part of your post is what I addressed although at no time did I mention you or your post excecpt when I said your points were well taken.

You said "It's kind of interesting, yet also quite predictable that many are pronouncing every problem every day as "Obama's" and occuring since November". I ignored that since I have not seen that happen at all anywhere.....most of the discussion Ihave seen have been about his solutions.

To your comments....."You are not acurate in your prononucements no do I care to be caught up in petty personality issues. "......I never professed to being toally accurate in what you call my "pronouncements" BUT I did think this was a place to share opinions....and have no idea whatsoever what you mean by "petty personality issues" as again, my post began with "Your points are well taken and I understand your feeling...".......what did you want me to do if I disagree?

I DONT believe myself to be close minded as you suggest...perhaps those who say that are just a bit, dont you think ? I said and said it over and over again how I feel and that I will be the first in line to say I was wrong (done it many times)...perhaps you should open your mind a bit to other thoughts instead of condemning those who feel strongly the other way.

Your comment about "Tired old partisan blame tactics and ideology will not fit or work in today's situation" is confusing as I blamed NOBODY for anything...but your comment does sound like a sound bite from the campaign. If you disagree you are not open !!! Glad you are moving beyond those tired old partisan tactics as you say, but you obviously dont feel voting on a bill without reading it BECAUSE of party is a bad thing but I do, and feel just as strongly about those who voted against the bill because of party pollitics.

It is a two way street and to be so smitten with a policy because someone who is able to say things in such convincing manner tells you that this is bi partisan does not make it so. IF criticizing the current administration and congress is preceived to be "tired old partisan politics" even if the criticism is necessary or valid, then they have accomplished what they want !!!

[Guest]

Sorry dont meet your standards...I promise to work at it.

First of all, OF COURSE what I say is my opinion SAME AS WHAT YOU SAY is yours. Is that not what this board is about ?

I shared NO perception of your research and in fact didnt even think about YOU when I was typing. In rereading perhaps I offended you with my misuse of the caps and you took that personally.

I surely will "leave you out of it" as you say....didnt think I "brought you into it"......you said in your post "based on personality" and that small part of your post is what I addressed although at no time did I mention you or your post excecpt when I said your points were well taken.

You said "It's kind of interesting, yet also quite predictable that many are pronouncing every problem every day as "Obama's" and occuring since November". I ignored that since I have not seen that happen at all anywhere.....most of the discussion Ihave seen have been about his solutions.

To your comments....."You are not acurate in your prononucements no do I care to be caught up in petty personality issues. "......I never professed to being toally accurate in what you call my "pronouncements" BUT I did think this was a place to share opinions....and have no idea whatsoever what you mean by "petty personality issues" as again, my post began with "Your points are well taken and I understand your feeling...".......what did you want me to do if I disagree?

I DONT believe myself to be close minded as you suggest...perhaps those who say that are just a bit, dont you think ? I said and said it over and over again how I feel and that I will be the first in line to say I was wrong (done it many times)...perhaps you should open your mind a bit to other thoughts instead of condemning those who feel strongly the other way.

Your comment about "Tired old partisan blame tactics and ideology will not fit or work in today's situation" is confusing as I blamed NOBODY for anything...but your comment does sound like a sound bite from the campaign. If you disagree you are not open !!! Glad you are moving beyond those tired old partisan tactics as you say, but you obviously dont feel voting on a bill without reading it BECAUSE of party is a bad thing but I do, and feel just as strongly about those who voted against the bill because of party pollitics.

It is a two way street and to be so smitten with a policy because someone who is able to say things in such convincing manner tells you that this is bi partisan does not make it so. IF criticizing the current administration and congress is preceived to be "tired old partisan politics" even if the criticism is necessary or valid, then they have accomplished what they want !!!

I really had to think before replying to this, but I will, you are accountable for what you say.
"If you did ANY research on his background you would find that he is and was always of this mind." Your words. Your perception of my research.

"I also might add since you mentioned this...NEVER have I said anything about President Obama personally...NEVER. He is a smart and obviously articulate man but there is nothing in his background that would indicate he will be anything but what he is..a smart politician who believes in socialism !" I never said you did.
"perhaps you should open your mind a bit to other thoughts instead of condemning those who feel strongly the other way." I never condemned you or others for their opinion, and I submit that I am quite open minded, your judgement not withstanding.
"Your comment about "Tired old partisan blame tactics and ideology will not fit or work in today's situation" is confusing as I blamed NOBODY for anything...but your comment does sound like a sound bite from the campaign. ". It really shouldn't be confusing as it is a simple and straightfoward statement of opinion. You seem to have a penchant for turning things into some personal judgement of you...the statement was general. As for it sounding like like a sound bite from the campaign...that's kinda funny, but I feel safe in saying there are alot of people fed up with antiquated partisan bickering down lines drawn in an era that was much different than today's.
"but you obviously dont feel voting on a bill without reading it BECAUSE of party is a bad thing but I do, and feel just as strongly about those who voted against the bill because of party pollitics.". Again, how you can pronounce what I "obviously" feel is beyond me, and frankly innapropriate.

In essence I took the time to answer this because you should be held accountable for the things you say. I have no personal issues with you but will not be bullied or allow inaccurate statements about me to stand. This should be a place to exchange ideas and participate in healthy debate, not a place however where innacurate statements or accusations are allowed to stand. That is what drives so many from the forum.

[Guest]

Strictly my opinion, I think the only mistake that President Obama is making is to try the "high road" to bi-partisanship. Seriously, why bother. Listening to McCain and the rest was a joke. These are the same people that presided over and got us into the fragile place we are today. Ya, Like I'd really want their input. :yuck: They are showing themselves for what they are. "Fiscal Responsibility" HA! Don't make me laugh.

Let's keep our eye on the ball. This is a global crisis and not just an American crisis. And Bucco, if I'm understanding you correctly, and that's always a big "IF", one prediction of yours might be right. If I know my Chicago homies, and I think I do, there will come a time --- not far down the road, when President Obama will say "OK, I've tried. Enough! Let's get this done with or without you" (Referring to the ultra right conservatives.) The Republicans are taking a big gamble here. And I don't think they're going to win come election time. Yes, the American people would like the parties to work together, and Obama said "We will extend a hand, if you unclench your fist." He meant that for this country too, not just others. Well, he extended a hand and got it slapped. The great thing is, he will learn from this mistake. The Republicans did not unclench their fists. And now they can shove them where the sun don't shine, because President Obama is intelligent enough to now change his negotiating tactics. Just watch.

President Obama is looking ahead, far reaching. There are some on this board that are so myopic they cannot possibly find anything supportive to say about him. As I said on another board, you should be praying, PRAYING, that your President succeeds.

[Guest]

Simple solution for McCain and friends.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/02/16/begala.carolina/

[Guest]

Strictly my opinion, I think the only mistake that President Obama is making is to try the "high road" to bi-partisanship. Seriously, why bother. Listening to McCain and the rest was a joke. These are the same people that presided over and got us into the fragile place we are today. Ya, Like I'd really want their input. :yuck: They are showing themselves for what they are. "Fiscal Responsibility" HA! Don't make me laugh.

Let's keep our eye on the ball. This is a global crisis and not just an American crisis. And Bucco, if I'm understanding you correctly, and that's always a big "IF", one prediction of yours might be right. If I know my Chicago homies, and I think I do, there will come a time --- not far down the road, when President Obama will say "OK, I've tried. Enough! Let's get this done with or without you" (Referring to the ultra right conservatives.) The Republicans are taking a big gamble here. And I don't think they're going to win come election time. Yes, the American people would like the parties to work together, and Obama said "We will extend a hand, if you unclench your fist." He meant that for this country too, not just others. Well, he extended a hand and got it slapped. The great thing is, he will learn from this mistake. The Republicans did not unclench their fists. And now they can shove them where the sun don't shine, because President Obama is intelligent enough to now change his negotiating tactics. Just watch.

President Obama is looking ahead, far reaching. There are some on this board that are so myopic they cannot possibly find anything supportive to say about him. As I said on another board, you should be praying, PRAYING, that your President succeeds.

Well stated. I hate that it is so but I am not naive enough to think everyone is willing to set their own political/personal interests aside to some degree and compromise, although I will still hold out hope.

The myopic reference is quite aprapro, again though I would like to think that somehow there will be a meeting of the minds on what is best for our country long term (a tough thing to discern at this point) by well informed and concerned people. New times and new situations require innovative solutions and a willingness to change..on "both sides" such as they are. I am holding out hope and offering support to those that are willing to do the right thing for our country aside from personal gain or staunch idealogy.

[Guest]

Strictly my opinion, I think the only mistake that President Obama is making is to try the "high road" to bi-partisanship. Seriously, why bother. Listening to McCain and the rest was a joke. These are the same people that presided over and got us into the fragile place we are today. Ya, Like I'd really want their input. :yuck: They are showing themselves for what they are. "Fiscal Responsibility" HA! Don't make me laugh.

Let's keep our eye on the ball. This is a global crisis and not just an American crisis. And Bucco, if I'm understanding you correctly, and that's always a big "IF", one prediction of yours might be right. If I know my Chicago homies, and I think I do, there will come a time --- not far down the road, when President Obama will say "OK, I've tried. Enough! Let's get this done with or without you" (Referring to the ultra right conservatives.) The Republicans are taking a big gamble here. And I don't think they're going to win come election time. Yes, the American people would like the parties to work together, and Obama said "We will extend a hand, if you unclench your fist." He meant that for this country too, not just others. Well, he extended a hand and got it slapped. The great thing is, he will learn from this mistake. The Republicans did not unclench their fists. And now they can shove them where the sun don't shine, because President Obama is intelligent enough to now change his negotiating tactics. Just watch.

President Obama is looking ahead, far reaching. There are some on this board that are so myopic they cannot possibly find anything supportive to say about him. As I said on another board, you should be praying, PRAYING, that your President succeeds.Two brief points: 1) Those of us that venture into the political forum have vastly different definitions of "success" and 2) If Nancy Pelosi in any way is a representative for the Democratic Party and President Obama, she's never come close to an unclenched political fist. She is a political combatant.

If we get this passionate about our political views on this forum, imagine what it's like in the halls of Congress. Bi-partisan is an oxymoron.

[Guest]

It's kind of interesting, yet also quite predictable that many are pronouncing every problem every day as "Obama's" and occuring since November. Let's at least keep in perspective the fact that he walked into a mess set in motion by those in office long before him and some of the irresponsible public at large. No president in history has walked into a situation of this magnitude, with no prior "rules for repair" to glean from. It is so easy to pronounce the present administration a failure this early into the process. Most prudent people realize that whatever unfortunate soul walked into this mess would untimately face the rath of the other party, and any candidate would have ample ammunition already in place to castigate him, ammunition put in place by those before him. More useless posturing that gets us no further ahead.
I am puzzled that people on either side of our pitiful partisan arguments can be haughty enough to think they can be completely right or completely wrong with regard to solutions to our present economic catastrophe. Lots of pundits on either side are so concrete in their assessment what what is right and wrong about the present "stimulus package"...where were all these brilliant scholars over the last several years as we sank deeper and deeper into the situation we now find ourselves in?
Again, it really seems quite predictable that any candidiate from any party that "won" this election would be almost immediately be the subject of the blame game from the start with "opponents" lashing out at them from the beginning because it is so easy to do so. I happen to think it is important to remember what/who got us here and keep some fair perspective as we attempt to navigate in unknown waters.
I cannot pretend to know what parts of this will ultimately be successful, and with honesty not many others can either. There are certainly parts of polices that we will all disagree with, but to simply condem every single step of the way is unrealistic at this point. Further, no matter who would have won this election, 4 years down the road we would not be back in the promised land, but it will be so easy to condemn at that point. I am doing my best to learn, voice opposition to things I don't agree with, support the things I do, and avoid blanket condemnations based on personality and tired political ideaolgy that really doesn't fit the present situation any longer.
I hope and pray daily that we achieve a collection of souls with the knowledge,insight,and ability to listen that will help guide us through this. There is no way we will all be satisfied every step of the way but some compromise, support, and willingness to change seem to be absolutely necessary to hope to achieve some success.

Very well said.

[Guest]

Two brief points: 1) Those of us that venture into the political forum have vastly different definitions of "success" and 2) If Nancy Pelosi in any way is a representative for the Democratic Party and President Obama, she's never come close to an unclenched political fist. She is a political combatant.

If we get this passionate about our political views on this forum, imagine what it's like in the halls of Congress. Bi-partisan is an oxymoron.

I completely agree with you on Pelosi, she needs to be reigned in. Obama will get to it, just watch. ;)

[Guest]

Strictly my opinion, I think the only mistake that President Obama is making is to try the "high road" to bi-partisanship. Seriously, why bother. Listening to McCain and the rest was a joke. These are the same people that presided over and got us into the fragile place we are today. Ya, Like I'd really want their input. :yuck: They are showing themselves for what they are. "Fiscal Responsibility" HA! Don't make me laugh.

Let's keep our eye on the ball. This is a global crisis and not just an American crisis. And Bucco, if I'm understanding you correctly, and that's always a big "IF", one prediction of yours might be right. If I know my Chicago homies, and I think I do, there will come a time --- not far down the road, when President Obama will say "OK, I've tried. Enough! Let's get this done with or without you" (Referring to the ultra right conservatives.) The Republicans are taking a big gamble here. And I don't think they're going to win come election time. Yes, the American people would like the parties to work together, and Obama said "We will extend a hand, if you unclench your fist." He meant that for this country too, not just others. Well, he extended a hand and got it slapped. The great thing is, he will learn from this mistake. The Republicans did not unclench their fists. And now they can shove them where the sun don't shine, because President Obama is intelligent enough to now change his negotiating tactics. Just watch.

President Obama is looking ahead, far reaching. There are some on this board that are so myopic they cannot possibly find anything supportive to say about him. As I said on another board, you should be praying, PRAYING, that your President succeeds.

Looking for bipartisanship (for both Dems & Reps) has always been looking for partners in crime and blame downstream should **** hit the fan. When there were no Reps in the conference committees to resolve differences in the House and Senate bills, 'nuff said about bipartisanship.

There's clenched fists on both sides of the aisle, and most have the middle finger extended towards the taxpayer.

It's a global crisis only because most of the world relies on US consumerism, and when the US slows its buying, the rest of the world is impacted. Ironically, all of those outsourced jobs are the first to be affected, followed by cheap goods made in Communist countries which don't have any labor-protection standards and abysmal human rights records - and those nations seem to all have "favored nation trading partner" status - thanks to lobbyists who bankroll Dems and Reps alike.

The "Say something good about Pres. Obama" - the choice for Secretary of Homeland Security was excellent. Ms. Napolitano is the right person at the right time of DHS' history.

The prayers for Pres. Obama being successful are legion. However, many of the prayers are that he remains presidential versus pseudo-regal. There is quite a difference.

[Guest]

I really had to think before replying to this, but I will, you are accountable for what you say.
"If you did ANY research on his background you would find that he is and was always of this mind." Your words. Your perception of my research.

"I also might add since you mentioned this...NEVER have I said anything about President Obama personally...NEVER. He is a smart and obviously articulate man but there is nothing in his background that would indicate he will be anything but what he is..a smart politician who believes in socialism !" I never said you did.
"perhaps you should open your mind a bit to other thoughts instead of condemning those who feel strongly the other way." I never condemned you or others for their opinion, and I submit that I am quite open minded, your judgement not withstanding.
"Your comment about "Tired old partisan blame tactics and ideology will not fit or work in today's situation" is confusing as I blamed NOBODY for anything...but your comment does sound like a sound bite from the campaign. ". It really shouldn't be confusing as it is a simple and straightfoward statement of opinion. You seem to have a penchant for turning things into some personal judgement of you...the statement was general. As for it sounding like like a sound bite from the campaign...that's kinda funny, but I feel safe in saying there are alot of people fed up with antiquated partisan bickering down lines drawn in an era that was much different than today's.
"but you obviously dont feel voting on a bill without reading it BECAUSE of party is a bad thing but I do, and feel just as strongly about those who voted against the bill because of party pollitics.". Again, how you can pronounce what I "obviously" feel is beyond me, and frankly innapropriate.

In essence I took the time to answer this because you should be held accountable for the things you say. I have no personal issues with you but will not be bullied or allow inaccurate statements about me to stand. This should be a place to exchange ideas and participate in healthy debate, not a place however where innacurate statements or accusations are allowed to stand. That is what drives so many from the forum.

I sure dont want to get into a war of words with you !!! I began my response to you with the following words...."Your points are well taken and I understand your feelings." Anything that came after that was a result, IN MY OPINION of your sensitivites, not mine but I surely can apologize for anything you perceived as personal, but my post was not even remotely about YOU and my first sentence was to let you know that whatver I disagree with I do with respect, but you obviously did not see it that way !

I, and SIXTY MILLION OTHER AMERICANS, did not feel that President Obama was the answer for this country in November.

I opposed his nomination and his election openly from the very beginnning on this board. As a result of that, I was called on here and in PM's a racist (NOT even close), a neo con (NOT in the same world) and a Bushie or other remarks to denote the same thing (WAY WAY WAY out of my world), and I am not going to apologize for my opinion and feeling.

There are those on here who during the primary called him names (empty suit, etc) and now feel he is the best thing in the world.

If being close minded is the new racist, neo con, Bushie or whatever that means I must agree with everything he does or I am one of the above...sorry !

Thus far he has done nothing to change my mind in anyway about how I feel and I will add that during the campaign I said on a number of occassions that his election with this specific congress made it even worse and I still feel that way.

I sure wish that those who are on this board espousing holier than thou comments about bi partisanship and reaching across the aisle could have been saying this during the last 12 years or so, but it only seems the "thing to do" now.

[Guest]

"President Obama is looking ahead, far reaching. There are some on this board that are so myopic they cannot possibly find anything supportive to say about him. As I said on another board, you should be praying, PRAYING, that your President succeeds."
__________________________________________________ _____--


Here is my problem......If you have any criticisms of this adminstration already you hear how you are looking for problems, or you should be praying and praying and you should say nothing but good things about him.

I can find much to support about him but am I disqualified now to criticize him or I am (Fill in the adjective from A to Z) ?

I have never in my life bowed down to an administration and held back on criticizing them if I disagreed, but it seems that is what is being asked and frankly that simply validates my fears about this entire election.

[Guest]

"President Obama is looking ahead, far reaching. There are some on this board that are so myopic they cannot possibly find anything supportive to say about him. As I said on another board, you should be praying, PRAYING, that your President succeeds."
__________________________________________________ _____--


Here is my problem......If you have any criticisms of this adminstration already you hear how you are looking for problems, or you should be praying and praying and you should say nothing but good things about him.

I can find much to support about him but am I disqualified now to criticize him or I am (Fill in the adjective from A to Z) ?

I have never in my life bowed down to an administration and held back on criticizing them if I disagreed, but it seems that is what is being asked and frankly that simply validates my fears about this entire election.

Ditto. It is not unAmerican to criticize an administration, as most of those who criticized the previous administration always stated (and correctly so).

The beauty of this democratic republic is that one voice can speak freely in criticism, even if the entire population's voices sound in disagreement. The ability for lawful vigilance by that one is what protects the entire population from the government becoming "Of Itself" instead of "Of the People."

[Guest]

Here's more food for thought and basically what I've been saying all along. The scam he and his minions are pulling of is disgraceful and disgusting not to mention scary as hell.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123457303244386495.html

Pray that Obama succeeds?

If Oboma succeeds we'll be a european style socialist state with everyone depending on the government for their survival not to mention the bottomless pit of debt he is putting us in. I pray that he doesn't succeed and I pray he is sent packing in four years before he has a chance to finish off what's left of our founding fathers design for this country.

[Guest]

8 years of Bush got us into this mess. How about cutting off those wasted billions of $$ in Iraq not to mention the 4000+ lives, and just where are those nukes hiding and "the oil money will pay for this", "welcomed with flowers", etc., etc. You're taxes will be paying for the Iraq fiasco for the "next 100 years" to quote John McBush. Obviously, Bush/Cheney/Bill O'Reilly and the other flag huggers didn't learn any thing from the waste of lives and $$ in Viet Nam! Oops, sorry they were too busy letting others be "patriotic"!

[Guest]

You assume I'm a fan of GW? So let's say everything you say is true. Will piling on another couple trillion dollars of debt, government pork spending and socializing our private sector infrastructure help small business create more jobs? Hum...

Maybe if Obama really pours on the coal next week and tells everyone the great depression #2 is actually here maybe that will spur business to hire more people.

Sounds like a great plan to me. :a040:

Just keep printing that money and giving it to congress and everything will be alright.

[Guest]

Simple solution for McCain and friends.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/02/16/begala.carolina/

I think this was overlooked before, but I absolutely agree! If all the Republican Congressmen and Senators are so against this package they should NOT TAKE THE MONEY! Just simply refuse it. Go back to your constituents and explain it to them as you dodge tomatoes.

Let them sit on their high horses and look the man in the eye that can't feed his family. Let them tell the seniors that lost everything how we should just sit back and do nothing. Let them tell the couple with the sick or dying child, sorry, so sorry, but our ideology is so much more important.

HEY REPUBLICANS! JUST DON'T TAKE THE MONEY! DO NOTHING! PUT YOUR HEADS IN THE SAND AND DO NOTHING! YOU'RE VERY, VERY GOOD AT THAT!

But... somehow I don't think that's going to happen. They'll be the first in line with their grubby little paws out in hopes of getting re-elected. Mark my words. :ohdear:

[Guest]

Here's more food for thought and basically what I've been saying all along. The scam he and his minions are pulling of is disgraceful and disgusting not to mention scary as hell.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123457303244386495.html

Pray that Obama succeeds?

If Oboma succeeds we'll be a european style socialist state with everyone depending on the government for their survival not to mention the bottomless pit of debt he is putting us in. I pray that he doesn't succeed and I pray he is sent packing in four years before he has a chance to finish off what's left of our founding fathers design for this country.

This is a very sad statement. Shame on you. :ohdear:

[Guest]

Here's more food for thought and basically what I've been saying all along. The scam he and his minions are pulling of is disgraceful and disgusting not to mention scary as hell.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123457303244386495.html

Pray that Obama succeeds?

If Oboma succeeds we'll be a european style socialist state with everyone depending on the government for their survival not to mention the bottomless pit of debt he is putting us in. I pray that he doesn't succeed and I pray he is sent packing in four years before he has a chance to finish off what's left of our founding fathers design for this country.

It really defies all logic to me that the only eyes wide open in this country are those opposing the present administration. To infer that every person that supports our currently president is simply being scammed, that there are no cognisent people except those in opposition, is a blanket condemnation of a such a large cross section of our country that it loses credibility. There are great minds and intellects an both sides of the isle and to condemn such a large part of our population as basically lacking intelligence is not only illogical, it is completly unrealistic. Disagreement does confer gullibility.
And again, let's at least remember all of those that contributed to the start of this "socialism" that was placed before Obama.
I didn't "pray" Bush failed though many of his policies were deplorable and damaging...he was our leader and made his choices..that time/era is done now.

[Guest]

Since when has it been the governments job to give cradle to grave care to all who think they deserve it?

There’s this thing called the Constitution but let’s not let that get in the way. Where's the Constitutional power the government has to transfer money from one person to another or take over large segmanets of the private sector? That's exactly what Obama means to do in a big way.

How about the folks who are about to lose their homes. Some of our tax dollars in the form of stimulus is going to pay down their principle so they can keep their homes. A part of that will be coming out of my paycheck. Well hells bells, I want my principle paid down to. Where’s my cut?

Chelsea24, Here’s a direct question to you. Given the government only operates on taxes it collects from us, how much of what I earn belongs to you and why? How much of my paycheck each week should go to you… or anyone?

And you are absolutely correct. Anyone who takes us down the socialist government controlled road should be run out of town on a rail and I don't care who they are or what party they belong to Bush included.

It feels real good to get on a soap box and cry the blues for all the poor and downtrodden and how the government should do something… anything at any expense. It’s nothing but liberal pap. The outcome or consequences never really matter as long as it makes you feel good saying it. But let's all wish Mr. Obama nice nice because that makes us feel good and above the rest.

You think hammering republicans will get a rise out of people? Some of you seem to think that if you’re anti-Obama you’re automatically pro republican or pro Bush. Think again my friends.

And yes, A good portion of the American people have been scammed by a slick talking radical who cares little about the recovery and more about power and control. Do you honestly believe these trillions of government pork spending will help the economy? Wait a few years and we'll talk again.

You can turn your heads away and ignore the Constitution and every single principle our country was founded on but I never will.

Some of you may think I’m cruel. Well here’s a real zinger for you. Anyone who supports this ridiculous, irresponsible pork barrel, government takeover stimulus package is dropping this right on the backs of our children and grand children. Now that’s what I consider cruel. Shame on me?

[Guest]

Since when has it been the governments job to give cradle to grave care to all who think they deserve it?

There’s this thing called the Constitution but let’s not let that get in the way. Where's the Constitutional power the government has to transfer money from one person to another or take over large segmanets of the private sector? That's exactly what Obama means to do in a big way.

How about the folks who are about to lose their homes. Some of our tax dollars in the form of stimulus is going to pay down their principle so they can keep their homes. A part of that will be coming out of my paycheck. Well hells bells, I want my principle paid down to. Where’s my cut?

Chelsea24, Here’s a direct question to you. Given the government only operates on taxes it collects from us, how much of what I earn belongs to you and why? How much of my paycheck each week should go to you… or anyone?

And you are absolutely correct. Anyone who takes us down the socialist government controlled road should be run out of town on a rail and I don't care who they are or what party they belong to Bush included.

It feels real good to get on a soap box and cry the blues for all the poor and downtrodden and how the government should do something… anything at any expense. It’s nothing but liberal pap. The outcome or consequences never really matter as long as it makes you feel good saying it. But let's all wish Mr. Obama nice nice because that makes us feel good and above the rest.

You think hammering republicans will get a rise out of people? Some of you seem to think that if you’re anti-Obama you’re automatically pro republican or pro Bush. Think again my friends.

And yes, A good portion of the American people have been scammed by a slick talking radical who cares little about the recovery and more about power and control. Do you honestly believe these trillions of government pork spending will help the economy? Wait a few years and we'll talk again.

You can turn your heads away and ignore the Constitution and every single principle our country was founded on but I never will.

Some of you may think I’m cruel. Well here’s a real zinger for you. Anyone who supports this ridiculous, irresponsible pork barrel, government takeover stimulus package is dropping this right on the backs of our children and grand children. Now that’s what I consider cruel. Shame on me?If anyone has a desire to learn more about this political position I again recommend Ron Paul's book, Revolution.

BTW, at 9am today the Dow futures are down almost 200 points. The financial investment community has not responded in a positive way to the stimulus plan. Why?

[Guest]

Here's more food for thought and basically what I've been saying all along. The scam he and his minions are pulling of is disgraceful and disgusting not to mention scary as hell.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123457303244386495.html

Pray that Obama succeeds?

If Oboma succeeds we'll be a european style socialist state with everyone depending on the government for their survival not to mention the bottomless pit of debt he is putting us in. I pray that he doesn't succeed and I pray he is sent packing in four years before he has a chance to finish off what's left of our founding fathers design for this country.


You could not have said it better. :agree::agree:

[Guest]

Since when has it been the governments job to give cradle to grave care to all who think they deserve it?

There’s this thing called the Constitution but let’s not let that get in the way. Where's the Constitutional power the government has to transfer money from one person to another or take over large segmanets of the private sector? That's exactly what Obama means to do in a big way.

How about the folks who are about to lose their homes. Some of our tax dollars in the form of stimulus is going to pay down their principle so they can keep their homes. A part of that will be coming out of my paycheck. Well hells bells, I want my principle paid down to. Where’s my cut?

Chelsea24, Here’s a direct question to you. Given the government only operates on taxes it collects from us, how much of what I earn belongs to you and why? How much of my paycheck each week should go to you… or anyone?

And you are absolutely correct. Anyone who takes us down the socialist government controlled road should be run out of town on a rail and I don't care who they are or what party they belong to Bush included.

It feels real good to get on a soap box and cry the blues for all the poor and downtrodden and how the government should do something… anything at any expense. It’s nothing but liberal pap. The outcome or consequences never really matter as long as it makes you feel good saying it. But let's all wish Mr. Obama nice nice because that makes us feel good and above the rest.

You think hammering republicans will get a rise out of people? Some of you seem to think that if you’re anti-Obama you’re automatically pro republican or pro Bush. Think again my friends.

And yes, A good portion of the American people have been scammed by a slick talking radical who cares little about the recovery and more about power and control. Do you honestly believe these trillions of government pork spending will help the economy? Wait a few years and we'll talk again.

You can turn your heads away and ignore the Constitution and every single principle our country was founded on but I never will.

Some of you may think I’m cruel. Well here’s a real zinger for you. Anyone who supports this ridiculous, irresponsible pork barrel, government takeover stimulus package is dropping this right on the backs of our children and grand children. Now that’s what I consider cruel. Shame on me?
There's more people who agree with you than may say so out loud.

I want Pres. Obama to succeed, but for me "success" is to not commit high crimes and misdemeanors which lead to impeachment.

Regarding earlier posts in this string concerning Iraq and Vietnam, let me make myself perfectly clear:

- - - had not the Clinton administration, in its quest to cut budgets involved in American defense, slashed away the US intelligence effort which took generations to develop, there's a good chance that there may never have been a 9/11, as the bad guys would have been neutralized on the other side of the Atlantic - as we used to be able to do. For the Clintonites who want to ignore what their hero did to the US military and the intelligence community, you can "ostrich" on this all you want, or cry "foul" if you so choose. That doesn't change what occurred in the Clinton administration, whatever the reasons for doing so and whether the risk seemed worthwhile or not.

- - - the US actions in Iraq and Afghanistan have made it clear that if the international bullies want to swipe at the US, their world will get lit up big-time. Those brave men and women who serve and sacrifice in the "sandbox" are buying us time to rebuild our former capacity to keep the bad guys off our turf. We've made a lot of progress in that regard thanks to them, but that's the cost for previously reduced vigilance in exchange for more entitlement programs.

- - - As a Vietnam Vet I've heard too many times how we "lost the war" there, mainly from folk who have no idea what were the circumstances for the American involvement and what could be achieved in that environment. You can have any opinion you want - mine is at http://www.geocities.com/matlock.cvma/why-vietnam.htm

I'm reminding myself that the existing (and shrinking) pool of US taxpayers just found that each and every taxpayer is now tagged with another $9,000 more in future taxes due, plus interest, just to pay for this stimulus package. Some of us will pay our share and then some - some will pay little towards this levy. If you are filing "joint," then double the levy. So, what do you think you'll actually get for your $9000 (or $18,000 if filing jointly)? Or are you part of the herd which rides the coattails of others?

[Guest]

If anyone watched CNBC today around 4 pm.... ouch! The pundits described the bailout as the WORST thing that Washington could have done. They said the economy is (are you ready)--- PERMANENTLY,yes, PERMANENTLY damaged by this legislation.... gee, no wonder the DOW was down 4% (300 more points). Is CNBC an NBC news affialiate???? You know NBC, the prowd sponser of MSNBC and Keith "obsessed with Bill O" Oberman. Another barf by The Street

[Guest]

Yes. I hear now on the news that they may be coming back for yet another spending package on top of the one today. My God, when are people going to wake up to what's going on here.

[Guest]

No secret where I stand on this, but as I read the posts and recall the campaign I remember a quote from Saul Alinsky.....Alinsky the man who has been mentioned a few times on here and sort of mocked...the author of the bible for radicals, studied and supported strongly by our new President. A book by the way, dedicated to Satan !

The quote...

"A reformation means that masses of our people have reached the point of disillusionment with past ways and values. They don't know what will work but they do know that the prevailing system is self-defeating, frustrating, and hopeless. They won't act for change but won't strongly oppose those who do. The time is then ripe for revolution. "


Sort of November, 2008

[Guest]

8 years of Bush got us into this mess. How about cutting off those wasted billions of $$ in Iraq not to mention the 4000+ lives, and just where are those nukes hiding and "the oil money will pay for this", "welcomed with flowers", etc., etc. Your taxes will be paying for the Iraq fiasco for the "next 100 years" to quote John McBush. Obviously, Bush/Cheney/Bill O'Reilly and the other flag huggers didn't learn any thing from the waste of lives and $$ in Viet Nam! Oops, sorry they were too busy letting others be "patriotic"!:thumbup: I agree! Thank God someone on the forum has a grain of common sense. I was beginning to get worried.

[Guest]

:thumbup: I agree! Thank God someone on the forum has a grain of common sense. I was beginning to get worried.Obama ordered 17,000 Marines to Afghanastan today... Where is the angst about this decision???

[Guest]

:thumbup: I agree! Thank God someone on the forum has a grain of common sense. I was beginning to get worried.There are many RVN Vets reading this forum who do NOT take kindly to their fallen brothers and sisters being called a waste. Think seriously about your statement.

[Guest]

Obama ordered 17,000 Marines to Afghanastan today... Where is the angst about this decision???

I'm confused. What is your problem with this. This is where we should have been before Bush decided to fight Daddy's war. Iraq depleted us, ruined our reputation in the world and cost thousands of lives. And you're against Afganastan??? Do you remember 9/11? chilout

[Guest]

There are many RVN Vets reading this forum who do NOT take kindly to their fallen brothers and sisters being called a waste. Think seriously about your statement.
That is not what the statement said. When politicians are allowed to launch wars for ill-defined reasons, with vague exit strategies and ever-shifting criteria for success, you have a formula for tragedy. Every American life lost in Iraq is a waste of life. This does not dishonor or disparage the soldiers. He did not say the soldiers were a waste - he said that the death of the fallen soldiers was a waste of life. This means that he considers the lives of these soldiers to be extremely valuable and should not have been wasted on a war that should have never happened.

[Guest]

Did you see the other day when millions of free Iraqies dipped their finger in the ink well? I don't think any of them would consider the lives given for their freedom a waste nor do the loved one's of the people who willingly gave their lives for it.

Did you not see all the many stories about soldiers who even when they could have gone home reenlisted so they could stay and finish what they believed in?

Freedom and liberty is not a word Obama or most liberals fully understand especially when they seek to remove as much of it as possible from us all in the name of change... any change even if it's bad.

But none of it really matters. You all just keep dragging Bush through the mud for the next 20 years while right under your nose Obama is looting the store.

[Guest]

You all just keep dragging Bush through the mud for the next 20 years while right under your nose Obama is looting the store.

Sadly, the store had already been looted when President Obama took office.

[Guest]

You may be right in some ways but I can't for the life of me figure out why you all keep going back to Bush over and over and over and then you turn around and give Obama a free pass when he's doing the exact same thing times 10.

News flash! Bush is not President any more.

[Guest]

A simple observation is that the US got into the current problems because people were borrowing above their ability to pay. What does the Government do? They borrow more money..!! Is this nuts or what??
When you borrow money and it is hard to pay back you cut expenses and spending..If you continue to borrow beyond your means it is safe to guess that things will get worse. This is not "rocket science" economics..

[Guest]

Don't be afraid, his plan is working.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090218/ap_on_bi_st_ma_re/wall_street

[Guest]

A simple observation is that the US got into the current problems because people were borrowing above their ability to pay. What does the Government do? They borrow more money..!! Is this nuts or what??
When you borrow money and it is hard to pay back you cut expenses and spending..If you continue to borrow beyond your means it is safe to guess that things will get worse. This is not "rocket science" economics..

You are correct REH, but then that would not be good pollitics, would it ?

This President, IN ONE MONTH, had promised OPENNESS, but this stimulus bill was drafted behind CLOSED DOORS, and believe it or not lobbyists got copies before the lawmakers. And I suppose it was NOT politics that all Democrats voted for a bill they DID NOT EVEN READ. Look for the TV ads sponsored by Americans United for Change (a liberal group started for one purpose at the time...to stop Bush from any changes in SS programs) and the American Federation of State, County and Federal Employees to hit your television telling you how wonderful this stimulus bill is...wonder if THEY read it ?

They continue to try and wrest control over the decennial census to the WH....why ? Because if illegal aliens are counted several house seats would shift from Republican to Democrat. When this was brought out by the withdrawl of Mr Gregg, the WH said the resignation was part of the war against this administration, but they are using politics.

The setting of rules for ex lobbyists made headlines, but we forget they made a number of "exceptions" to this rule. Not political.

What happened to the promise of 5 days between passing a bill and signing it so that Americans could read it ? Well, it is not happening at all.

Just read today that after listening to President Obama and his supporters on this board and across the board, lambast the past administration for detaining terror suspects without charges that the nominees of President Obama support that and are for not changing that. What was all the rehtoric and thumping of chests about during the campaign ? Wonder if anyone will apologize for saying what they said if they continue down the same road ?

There is much more and all of it HAPPENED IN ONE MONTH !

People who supported President Obama said he would get away from the old political ways....seems he has perfected the old ways. People who suppported him said he would be more transparent....seems there is more behind closed doors and "ramming" than ever before.

This is TRUELY the most political machine oriented team I have ever seen in the WH in my lifetime, at least thus far. If only those blinded by the oratory would admit to that and allow themselves to see beyond all the symbolism that this President uses to sell.

[Guest]

Don't be afraid, his plan is working.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090218/ap_on_bi_st_ma_re/wall_street

A quote from Ron Paul...on the stimulus bill....

""We got into our mess by spending too much money, running up too much debt and printing too much money, and that's exactly what we're doing. We're printing money and running up debt,"

[Guest]

Three Big Fears Have Market on Edge

Housing Fix. Obama seems determined to help people who bought houses they can't afford and shaft everyone else--including homeowners who can still make their payments and renters who decided not to buy houses because they were too expensive. It will be interesting to see how effective this plan is and how it sits with the majority of the country--who won't get bailed out.

http://finance.yahoo.com/tech-ticker/article/183442/Three-Big-Fears-Have-Market-on-Edge?tickers=%5Edji,%5Egspc


Are you Obama supporters getting any of this? Do you see what's happening here? People aren't afraid of the bad economy, they are afraid of him.

[Guest]

You may be right in some ways but I can't for the life of me figure out why you all keep going back to Bush over and over and over and then you turn around and give Obama a free pass when he's doing the exact same thing times 10.

News flash! Bush is not President any more.

News flash! Bush was the major cause of it! And much, much more. No one is giving President Obama a free pass. They are giving him more than 3 weeks to try to cure a very diseased economy that was laid at his feet.

[Guest]

You are misinformed and not looking at the whole picture.

Some of you seem to like talking about Presidential history and how it relates to the current economic predicament we find ourselves in but you only like going back 8 years and blaming Bush for everything.

So lets go back a little farther shall we? Everyone pretty much knows this whole thing started with the housing crash. Did Bush cause the housing crash? I don’t think so.

While Bill Clinton was having extra marital affairs with White House interns, they were also forcing banks to make extremely risky home loans and loosen credit standards under the presumption that not enough “poor” people could buy homes.

You know the typical liberal line “It’s not fair that only rich people with good credit can get mortgages” which of course sent people on a home buying spree which of course drove home prices into space. Then congress told the banks not to worry about it because all the loans would be insured by Freddie and Fannie and the banks would be safe.

All through the Bush administration when warnings were given and concerns raised during the famous Freddie and Fannie hearings the democrats in control of congress repeatedly said during those hearings “THERE IS NO PROBLEM” and even accused republications of being on a witch hunt. (btw, anyone can watch the hearings on youtube) Read carefully, it was the Democrats not Bush who said there were no problems before all this mess started. It's the truth, go watch it yourself.

Two years later when people started defaulting on the loans (This by the way was when unemployment was still low about the same as under Bill C.) Freddie and Fannie went belly up along with the banks that made the original loans. After that a chain reaction started in the market and here we are.
So don’t blame everything under the sun on Bush. This started long before he was President.

GW inherited a few things himself, just like Obama did.

How about talking about what Obama is doing today and give some substance instead of just I hate Bush one liners?

[Guest]

Right on, DK...

[Guest]

OK, DK, if you want to rewind, let's go back to Reagan's famous "Trickle Down" theory. Not only did it NOT trickley down, it drowned the middle class! You can bet Katrina on that. :ohdear:

[Guest]

Amen, DK. Reagan policies did work. Clinton was the beneficiary. The economy was on the way up when he took office.

[Guest]

I'm game. I'll see your Reagan and raise you a Jimmy Carter. When Reagan took office from Carter we had double digit inflation, gas lines, 10% + unemployment, 18% home mortgages and our military was in shambles not to mention all the bank failures. That's what Reagan inherited. That's what Obama is going to leave us with again...

I can keep going.

I have a spreadsheet with all the economic numbers by year and by President going back 60 years. The numbers don't work to your favor Chels but it's still meaningless. Give us some substantive commentary on Obama's plans and how it will help our economy and pay down the national debt for our grand kids.

[Guest]

Ya, right! George Bush Senior called Reganomics "Voo Doo Economics" and one of Reagan's key ingredients was to reduce government regulation of the
economy. And you really think that didn't start this tangled up ball rolling???

"Reagan's tax policies were accused of pushing both the international transactions current account and the federal budget into deficit and led to a significant increase in public debt. Debt exploded from 900 billion dollars before Reagan's tenure to 2.8 trillion dollars after his tenure; an increase of over 200%."

Read it and weep.

[Guest]

Your leaving something out. The national debt started rising fairly dramatically going all the way back to Johnson. You are also not taking into account our military was in bad shape when Reagan took office.

He embarked on a pretty sizable rebuild of our military which ultimately won the cold war for the USA. Military spending is the one thing government is supposed to spend money on. One which I gladly pay my taxes for.

You seem to dislike national debt but your current leader is going to quadruple it or more on wasteful pork spending, bailing everyone and their mother out except of course the one's that play the rules, bank takeovers, etc. Bush is not much better quite honestly but Obama’s spending scheme makes Bush look a rank amateur.

Did you realize the Wells Fargo CEO and also one from another large bank just went public and turned down the bail out money because he said they were in good shape and didn't need it or want it? Do you also realize that Obama's Treasury Secretary forced them to take the money anyway? With strings attached of course.

Are you really keeping an eye on what’s going on here?

[Guest]

News flash! Bush was the major cause of it! And much, much more. No one is giving President Obama a free pass. They are giving him more than 3 weeks to try to cure a very diseased economy that was laid at his feet.


Gotta tell you...a claim like "Bush was the major cause of it! " is so very inaccurate and afar from the facts I would need you to make your case with some validation that Bush was the major cause.

You excuse so very many people over the last years with a statement like that so will look forward to your case to show that ex President Bush was the major cause of our economic situation !!

Nobody is blaming President Obama for the crisis...the criticism is that he is doing things, ramroding would be accurate, spending bills and calling them stimulus without even knowing for sure what is in them...certainly those who voted for it did nt know. You need to be an extremist to blame Bush as the major cause and totally ignore congress the last years along with many many others. You must have a picture of Nancy Pelosi on your wall !!!!

[Guest]

Reagan - Carter - Bush - Clinton - Bush - Obama

In the end, the question is a simple one: Is your standard of living better than your parents, and their parents before them, and their parents before them, and do your kids have more (of everything) than you did at their ages?

If the answer is YES, then all of this political finger-pointing means nothing, because IN SPITE OF all the "help" government has provided, we've done all right.

Will we do better in the future? Most likely YES, again IN SPITE OF the government meddling.

Agree?

[Guest]

I would tend to agree. However the actions we are seeing now from the government is at the very least unprecedented and out of control. And that scares the $#$% out of me.

I guess the bottom line is some see the government as our caretakers and some still wish to take care of themselves. The problem is you can only print money for so long and taking money from producers and giving it to non producers can only last for so long. Once you reach that point we'll turn from a productive society to an entitlement society where government picks the winners and losers. Some argue we are already there.

That house of cards will only hold for so long before the bottom falls out for everyone. How do I opt-out of that program?

[Guest]

I think if you go back to the start of record keeping there are always "recovery" periods followed by a "recession" with the depression being the result of a lack of controls. Recession have historically been 1/2 of the recovery period.
In 2005 and 6 I said (based on history) that we were heading for one heck of a recession and took actions to avoid being hit hard by it.. The reason being that both parties, (Clinton and Bush) embarked on programs to prevent a recession in their time..To do this they did a lot of things to prevent what should have been a natural recession and then back to recovery..At least 2 over the last few years. It was like a baloon being filled with air , sooner or later it will break if some is not allowed to escape and the amount managed properly.
Their actions were so severe that I am not sure how we can get out of it without some serious pain far beyond on what we have been experiencing.
The actions of these administrations have been so compex that simple steps of pumping more moeny into the system will not fix any problem. How will they address the impact of 11M+ people in the system who don't pay taxes but use the infrastructures, NAFTA where the US has become apart of the WW economy and part of the 3rd world systems and its problems (e.g. low labor out of India, etc.), trading with countries that can impact our system with just threats, (e.g. China trade, etc.), a generation that has developed personal habits of spending more than they can afford, (sense of entitlement), a current Government who's response was to borrow more funds, and head towards a socialistic form of government which is easier than addressing the problems by accepting the pain to get through it and save a democracy!
I know a lot of this sounds like doom and gloom which I would like to think and hope is an overstatement?
I hold Clinton or Bush Administrations individually and collectively responsible. I think both adminstrations got us here and unfortunately the current one is taking what is the easy way to look like they are doing something while taking the US to a Socialistic state. (I will not argue this point as each is entitled to their opinion. This is mine.)
At some point citizens will have to act to make the Government get back to being statesmen.

[Guest]

I think if you go back to the start of record keeping there are always "recovery" periods followed by a "recession" with the depression being the result of a lack of controls. Recession have historically been 1/2 of the recovery period.
In 2005 and 6 I said (based on history) that we were heading for one heck of a recession and took actions to avoid being hit hard by it.. The reason being that both parties, (Clinton and Bush) embarked on programs to prevent a recession in their time..To do this they did a lot of things to prevent what should have been a natural recession and then back to recovery..At least 2 over the last few years. It was like a baloon being filled with air , sooner or later it will break if some is not allowed to escape and the amount managed properly.
Their actions were so severe that I am not sure how we can get out of it without some serious pain far beyond on what we have been experiencing.
The actions of these administrations have been so compex that simple steps of pumping more moeny into the system will not fix any problem. How will they address the impact of 11M+ people in the system who don't pay taxes but use the infrastructures, NAFTA where the US has become apart of the WW economy and part of the 3rd world systems and its problems (e.g. low labor out of India, etc.), trading with countries that can impact our system with just threats, (e.g. China trade, etc.), a generation that has developed personal habits of spending more than they can afford, (sense of entitlement), a current Government who's response was to borrow more funds, and head towards a socialistic form of government which is easier than addressing the problems by accepting the pain to get through it and save a democracy!
I know a lot of this sounds like doom and gloom which I would like to think and hope is an overstatement?
I hold Clinton or Bush Administrations individually and collectively responsible. I think both adminstrations got us here and unfortunately the current one is taking what is the easy way to look like they are doing something while taking the US to a Socialistic state. (I will not argue this point as each is entitled to their opinion. This is mine.)
At some point citizens will have to act to make the Government get back to being statesmen.
Good reason to fire at least 75% of all congressional incumbents in 2010, no matter what party they belong to. If you vote for the incumbent, you are only asking for more of the same.