Not greedy, selfish or anti medical/health care reform

[Guest]

Those who prefer their politics left of center are eager to engage the party line sound bites to demonize and assault honest, hardworking patriots who don't fall in lock step with the Obama "share the wealth" agenda. Even on this board we have been called greedy, selfish, the party of "No", and worse. I can't speak for the vast number of Americans who don't like the way the medical/health reform push is being rushed and crammed down the collective throats of the taxpayers but, I have attended a tea party protest and spoke with a lot of salt of the earth American taxpayers.

Not one, I repeat, not one said that they didn't want to see medical/health care reform. They supported reform but wanted to see it done with thoughtful insight...not haste, waste and pork. They wanted it done right. I spoke to Republicans, Democrats, minorities, union members, farmers and business executives who attended the protest and stood together in opposition to the bills being fast tracked in Washington. They were concerned about the truthfulness or lack thereof coming from Congressional leadership and the White House about the plans.

Many seniors were upset about the government raiding anywhere from $400 billion to $700 billion for the "reform" on the backs of the Medicare they depend on. All the pieces fit to paint a picture of cutting care, treatments, and budgets for Medicare seniors, while encouraging the inevitable in an efficient, cost effective, evilly conceived notion that medical care capital is better spent on the young. Of course, the near bankrupt Social Security system would also benefit by the early demise of the elderly and infirmed. Obama in his encounter with Joe the Plumber admitted he advocated transferring the wealth from the rich to the poor. By extension, it appears he is a strong advocate of transferring the health from the old to the young as well. What a cold, mercenary concept.

There were over 3,000 "tea *******" in Toms River, N.J. when we attended. They were asked to raise their hands if this was the first protest anyone had attended. Astonishingly, well over 90% raised their hands. I spoke to one of the "roadie" support staff about the nationwide tour now appearing in Toms River. The bus would be in Washington the next day. They had crossed the country and he told me the response had been the same everywhere they went. There were no racists, no agitators and no unruly conduct. The signage was bountiful, but with one exception, proper and respectful. The people I met and observed were not greedy, selfish or radical.

I chatted with a soft spoken, elderly farmer's wife. She acknowledged why she came almost 100 miles to be at the tea party. Quietly, with a hint of apology in her voice, she told me it was her fault because she wasn't paying enough attention when she voted for Obama. Her husband agreed.

[Guest]

All that's missing, is the violins! The Health Reform bill will pass. Plain and simple. Also, if the Public Option is not in the first, there will be a loophole that if the insurance companies don't step up to the plate and do the right thing for once, instead of making people go to court for an order to be able to get a bone marrow transplant (as a friend of mind did) if they do not step up to the plate, the Public Option will kick in. Watch.

You people continually think you're dealing with idiots here. Not with this administration! :boxing2::)

[Guest]

Cabo like you I and every Republican and most Democrats are in favor of healthcare reform.

Any bill without Tort reform and allowing Insurance companies to compete in all 50 States is not Healthcare reform.

[Guest]

Even if it does pass, it doesn't take effect until 2013. After the 2012 elections of course... what a coincidence that is.

Once the Dem's get tossed out on their keesters in 2010 and BO looses the White House in 2012, watch how fast they start resending it. The mandate will be clear.

[Guest]

Those who prefer their politics left of center are eager to engage the party line sound bites to demonize and assault honest, hardworking patriots who don't fall in lock step with the Obama "share the wealth" agenda. Even on this board we have been called greedy, selfish, the party of "No", and worse. I can't speak for the vast number of Americans who don't like the way the medical/health reform push is being rushed and crammed down the collective throats of the taxpayers but, I have attended a tea party protest and spoke with a lot of salt of the earth American taxpayers.

Not one, I repeat, not one said that they didn't want to see medical/health care reform. They supported reform but wanted to see it done with thoughtful insight...not haste, waste and pork. They wanted it done right. I spoke to Republicans, Democrats, minorities, union members, farmers and business executives who attended the protest and stood together in opposition to the bills being fast tracked in Washington. They were concerned about the truthfulness or lack thereof coming from Congressional leadership and the White House about the plans.

Many seniors were upset about the government raiding anywhere from $400 billion to $700 billion for the "reform" on the backs of the Medicare they depend on. All the pieces fit to paint a picture of cutting care, treatments, and budgets for Medicare seniors, while encouraging the inevitable in an efficient, cost effective, evilly conceived notion that medical care capital is better spent on the young. Of course, the near bankrupt Social Security system would also benefit by the early demise of the elderly and infirmed. Obama in his encounter with Joe the Plumber admitted he advocated transferring the wealth from the rich to the poor. By extension, it appears he is a strong advocate of transferring the health from the old to the young as well. What a cold, mercenary concept.

There were over 3,000 "tea *******" in Toms River, N.J. when we attended. They were asked to raise their hands if this was the first protest anyone had attended. Astonishingly, well over 90% raised their hands. I spoke to one of the "roadie" support staff about the nationwide tour now appearing in Toms River. The bus would be in Washington the next day. They had crossed the country and he told me the response had been the same everywhere they went. There were no racists, no agitators and no unruly conduct. The signage was bountiful, but with one exception, proper and respectful. The people I met and observed were not greedy, selfish or radical.

I chatted with a soft spoken, elderly farmer's wife. She acknowledged why she came almost 100 miles to be at the tea party. Quietly, with a hint of apology in her voice, she told me it was her fault because she wasn't paying enough attention when she voted for Obama. Her husband agreed.

Cabo.... I have a couple of issues I would like to discuss.

Obama "share the wealth" agenda I think you know that in a rising tide all boats are lifted, to coin a phrase. Any time the pendulum swings to much in favor of one side the other is left out. During the last 8 years the middle class has been left out...Wall Street applauds restructuring and growth in job productivity but what those really mean is someone lost their job. I know in the last 5 years...this last year they told us if we accepted no raises then we would avert layoffs. Last week 280 more jobs were cut so far this year about 500-750 jobs have been lost. The middle class is hurting and needs help.

They supported reform but wanted to see it done with thoughtful insight...not haste, waste and pork. We have been waiting for healthcare reform for 30 years.... At this point, with some many people without healthcare something needs to be done.

Many seniors were upset about the government raiding anywhere from $400 billion to $700 billion for the "reform" on the backs of the Medicare they depend on. The Medicare they depend on is what they fear the most socialized single payer Health Insurance. The scare tactics that have been used on the elderly has gone beyond the pale. Death panels and thinning the herd...forcing electronic access to your bank accounts...none of this is true.
I am only 59 and I have a living will and medical directives not scary at all.

My last point is where were the Tea Party people when the last administration was running up the deficit? I have been told the real conservatives were outraged by the spending...but Bush still got a second term and I didn't see any tea parties. Now all of a sudden spending is out of control and the American Dream is dead. I really don't get it! (This is a question and not just Bush Bashing)

Hopefully we can all discuss this.....

PS ....no time for fishing yet.

[Guest]

instead of making people go to court for an order to be able to get a bone marrow transplant (as a friend of mind did)

I'm curious. when the government denies the bone marrow transplant because you are too old, too expensive or too whatever, who are you going to sue?

Right or wrong good or bad, private you have recourse. Government you have nothing.

[Guest]

All that's missing, is the violins! The Health Reform bill will pass. Plain and simple. Also, if the Public Option is not in the first, there will be a loophole that if the insurance companies don't step up to the plate and do the right thing for once, instead of making people go to court for an order to be able to get a bone marrow transplant (as a friend of mind did) if they do not step up to the plate, the Public Option will kick in. Watch.

You people continually think you're dealing with idiots here. Not with this administration! :boxing2::)

As a proud member of the "YOU PEOPLE" that you refer to nobody thinks that we ("YOU PEOPLE") are dealing with any such thing and wondering why you would even say such a thing.

The mood of your note is EXACTLY the sentiments of Pelosi...we won..live with it all "YOU PEOPLE"

[Guest]

COLOGAL

"Obama "share the wealth" agenda I think you know that in a rising tide all boats are lifted, to coin a phrase. Any time the pendulum swings to much in favor of one side the other is left out. During the last 8 years the middle class has been left out...Wall Street applauds restructuring and growth in job productivity but what those really mean is someone lost their job. I know in the last 5 years...this last year they told us if we accepted no raises then we would avert layoffs. Last week 280 more jobs were cut so far this year about 500-750 jobs have been lost. The middle class is hurting and needs help."

The figures below are from 2008 and thus do not reflect anything from the current administration, BUT with creation of jobs happening ONLY in the government sector they will get worse.

In 2008, the average salary for federal civilian workers was $79,197 while the average salary in the private sector was $50,028 and the difference is INCREASING.
When you add in benefits, federal civilian workers compensation was $119,982 versus for the private sector, $59,909 which means the total compensation was DOUBLE that of the private sector.

Do we scream about that or simply Wall St. ? No, we are giving much more strength to the federal unions and adding MUCHO to the number receiving this money.

http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/2009/08/24/federal-pay-continues-rapid-ascent/

COLOGAL

"They supported reform but wanted to see it done with thoughtful insight...not haste, waste and pork. We have been waiting for healthcare reform for 30 years.... At this point, with some many people without healthcare something needs to be done."

85%...EIGHTYFIVE PERCENT of all americans have insurance at present ! The large vast majority of them are happy with their insurance coverage.

The total number of uninsured keeps changing depending on what the WH would like to sell this week, but no matter the number, they keep using numbers that include illegal immigrants.

In the 15% that do not have insurance many of them can get it NOW for free but do not make the effort..of course now they MUST get it or pay a fine and they MUST pay for it.

All that aside....CABO said in his original post "Not one, I repeat, not one said that they didn't want to see medical/health care reform." READ THAT AGAIN....have you not learned from the "stimulus" bill which was called "for the economy" and WITH NO ARGUEMENT HAD 60% PORK.

COLOGAL

"Many seniors were upset about the government raiding anywhere from $400 billion to $700 billion for the "reform" on the backs of the Medicare they depend on. The Medicare they depend on is what they fear the most socialized single payer Health Insurance. The scare tactics that have been used on the elderly has gone beyond the pale. Death panels and thinning the herd...forcing electronic access to your bank accounts...none of this is true.
I am only 59 and I have a living will and medical directives not scary at all."


I ask you.....congress has said it is a fact that medicaire will take a cut. Congress also said the bill is too complicated to read. I am on medicaire and have no idea what all that means. Do you ? Of course not. You cant as congress cant even tell us and they are writing it.

Based on that, tell me why I should not be scared ?

[Guest]

I'm curious. when the government denies the bone marrow transplant because you are too old, too expensive or too whatever, who are you going to sue?

Right or wrong good or bad, private you have recourse. Government you have nothing.

Actually, in many cases you currently have no recourse...they just wait you out time is on their side.

[Guest]

When you get to the point where you have more people in the cart than are pulling the cart no longer have America. We are very close.

Obama wants everyone in the cart with government pulling.

Chles is correct on one thing. They are no idiots. Obama's plan from the very beginning was do decimate the private sector and replace it with government.

What they are doing, they are doing on purpose. That's why we continue to loose millions of jobs and he does nothing. The ONLY way to create jobs is to incentivise business. Obama is doing the exact opposite.

[Guest]

COLOGAL

"Obama "share the wealth" agenda I think you know that in a rising tide all boats are lifted, to coin a phrase. Any time the pendulum swings to much in favor of one side the other is left out. During the last 8 years the middle class has been left out...Wall Street applauds restructuring and growth in job productivity but what those really mean is someone lost their job. I know in the last 5 years...this last year they told us if we accepted no raises then we would avert layoffs. Last week 280 more jobs were cut so far this year about 500-750 jobs have been lost. The middle class is hurting and needs help."

The figures below are from 2008 and thus do not reflect anything from the current administration, BUT with creation of jobs happening ONLY in the government sector they will get worse.

In 2008, the average salary for federal civilian workers was $79,197 while the average salary in the private sector was $50,028 and the difference is INCREASING.
When you add in benefits, federal civilian workers compensation was $119,982 versus for the private sector, $59,909 which means the total compensation was DOUBLE that of the private sector.

Do we scream about that or simply Wall St. ? No, we are giving much more strength to the federal unions and adding MUCHO to the number receiving this money.

http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/2009/08/24/federal-pay-continues-rapid-ascent/

COLOGAL

"They supported reform but wanted to see it done with thoughtful insight...not haste, waste and pork. We have been waiting for healthcare reform for 30 years.... At this point, with some many people without healthcare something needs to be done."

85%...EIGHTYFIVE PERCENT of all americans have insurance at present ! The large vast majority of them are happy with their insurance coverage.

The total number of uninsured keeps changing depending on what the WH would like to sell this week, but no matter the number, they keep using numbers that include illegal immigrants.

In the 15% that do not have insurance many of them can get it NOW for free but do not make the effort..of course now they MUST get it or pay a fine and they MUST pay for it.

All that aside....CABO said in his original post "Not one, I repeat, not one said that they didn't want to see medical/health care reform." READ THAT AGAIN....have you not learned from the "stimulus" bill which was called "for the economy" and WITH NO ARGUEMENT HAD 60% PORK.

COLOGAL

"Many seniors were upset about the government raiding anywhere from $400 billion to $700 billion for the "reform" on the backs of the Medicare they depend on. The Medicare they depend on is what they fear the most socialized single payer Health Insurance. The scare tactics that have been used on the elderly has gone beyond the pale. Death panels and thinning the herd...forcing electronic access to your bank accounts...none of this is true.
I am only 59 and I have a living will and medical directives not scary at all."


I ask you.....congress has said it is a fact that medicaire will take a cut. Congress also said the bill is too complicated to read. I am on medicaire and have no idea what all that means. Do you ? Of course not. You cant as congress cant even tell us and they are writing it.

Based on that, tell me why I should not be scared ?

I am not sure what the salary of federal workers has to do with this....But you ignored most of my post so I will try one more time.....

Can we agree that the bill does not include, nor ever did, death panels?

You say that the bill is to complicated to read and yet I see post after post citing line numbers which then turn out NOT to be true. For example, the line number post stating the bill forced everyone to allow the government electronic access to the bank accounts. So the second one is:

Can we agree the bill never included a requirement for bank account access.

Many of us, including myself have health insurance...mine is tied to my continuing employment. 280 of my fellow employees lost their healthcare just last week. When will my time come? My company has no union.... My insurance has a lifetime cap so should I get cancer which requires chemo therapy I could be out of luck.

You are upset about the stimulus package.... I am upset about TARP, on Bush's watch, the unfunded Medicare Drug package, 2 unfunded 8 year wars and unfunded tax cuts for the rich. Why when these things happened were there no tea parties?

The president has said illegals will NOT have access to this but we pay for illegals now. Hospitals are NOT allowed to turn them away. As for the people who don't want insurance and who will be forced to get it. If they opt out of the program what happens when they get sick? Lets say they have a car accident what should we do. They didn't want health insurance....should we turn them away from the hospital? Deny them the emergency care they need?

If you think the healthcare bill is so bad how would you change it?

[Guest]

I am not sure what the salary of federal workers has to do with this....But you ignored most of my post so I will try one more time.....

Can we agree that the bill does not include, nor ever did, death panels?

You say that the bill is to complicated to read and yet I see post after post citing line numbers which then turn out NOT to be true. For example, the line number post stating the bill forced everyone to allow the government electronic access to the bank accounts. So the second one is:

Can we agree the bill never included a requirement for bank account access.

Many of us, including myself have health insurance...mine is tied to my continuing employment. 280 of my fellow employees lost their healthcare just last week. When will my time come? My company has no union.... My insurance has a lifetime cap so should I get cancer which requires chemo therapy I could be out of luck.

You are upset about the stimulus package.... I am upset about TARP, on Bush's watch, the unfunded Medicare Drug package, 2 unfunded 8 year wars and unfunded tax cuts for the rich. Why when these things happened were there no tea parties?

The president has said illegals will NOT have access to this but we pay for illegals now. Hospitals are NOT allowed to turn them away. As for the people who don't want insurance and who will be forced to get it. If they opt out of the program what happens when they get sick? Lets say they have a car accident what should we do. They didn't want health insurance....should we turn them away from the hospital? Deny them the emergency care they need?

If you think the healthcare bill is so bad how would you change it?

I did not mention death panels at all. I suggested that there are going to be massive cuts in medicaire. I am on Medicaire. The congress has said they WILL NOT read the bill and thus it concerns me.

I did not say the bill was too complicated. I suggested that what I read inthe news there is great debate in congress; seems the Democrats are opposed to posting it online to be read 72 hours in advance because it is too complicated.

I never brought up any bank account access.

As far as your insurance is concerned....with the health bill, you can probably be assured that your company will pay the fine for not covering you as it is cheaper than paying for the insurance. Good gain for you ?

By almost every crtieria and review the TARP funding saved our economy. Sen Obama supported it. Why are you upset ?

What does Bush and any of his unrelated programs have to do with the thread on health insurance ?

Not sure what your tirade on illegals is all about. I simply mentioned that the President uses double language to inflate the uninsured. 85% or more of all americans have insurance and are happy !

Oh, and the reason for the government worker info is this...you are always posting about Wall St...does not the inflated government payroll bother you at all ?

[Guest]

The tax increases and the cost of care increases are party insensitive.

Are you buying the notion that the waste in Medicare is going to fund the reform? You mean they are going to cut Medicare that is forecast to go belly up in less than 10 years?

How can anybody support a program that has yet to be defined? Has yet to have had a cost estimate done.

It seems like the emphasis is on getting it done no matter what is in it and along with that.....NO MATTER WHAT IT COSTS.

I find it particularly interesting how much so called knowledge is out there about where and how much the cost abuse is and where to go get it. If it is so obvious, why has nothing been done to date? What makes anybody think the politicians will miraculously go into a cost reducing mode when history documents they never have....never will.

We will all in the long run have fewer services and higher costs for those. Plus to supplement what will have been lost we will pay more to retain or get back coverage we have been used to or still want.

btk

[Guest]

I did not mention death panels at all. I suggested that there are going to be massive cuts in medicaire. I am on Medicare. The congress has said they WILL NOT read the bill and thus it concerns me.

I did not say the bill was too complicated. I suggested that what I read inthe news there is great debate in congress; seems the Democrats are opposed to posting it online to be read 72 hours in advance because it is too complicated.

I never brought up any bank account access.

As far as your insurance is concerned....with the health bill, you can probably be assured that your company will pay the fine for not covering you as it is cheaper than paying for the insurance. Good gain for you ?

By almost every crtieria and review the TARP funding saved our economy. Sen Obama supported it. Why are you upset ?

Oh, and the reason for the government worker info is this...you are always posting about Wall St...does not the inflated government payroll bother you at all ?[/

Not sure what your tirade on illegals is all about. I simply mentioned that the President uses double language to inflate the uninsured. 85% or more of all americans have insurance and are happy !

Oh, and the reason for the government worker info is this...you are always posting about Wall St...does not the inflated government payroll bother you at all ?

It makes no sense to try and discuss things with you....

I explain that we have to cover illegals now when they go to the emergency room. To you I went on a tirade.

The Bush administration was given a surplus and they ran up huge deficits.... I asked where were the tea party people then.....no answer from you.

The TARP was great and the stimulus PORK.....

You rant against the brainwashed Democrats but I suggest you should look in the mirror.

If you are on Medicare then you directly benefit from a socialist program.

That I find very humorous.....

[Guest]

All that's missing, is the violins! The Health Reform bill will pass. Plain and simple. Also, if the Public Option is not in the first, there will be a loophole that if the insurance companies don't step up to the plate and do the right thing for once, instead of making people go to court for an order to be able to get a bone marrow transplant (as a friend of mind did) if they do not step up to the plate, the Public Option will kick in. Watch.

You people continually think you're dealing with idiots here. Not with this administration! :boxing2::)

I never thought that this administration is idiots but I suspect that some may be domestic enemies ot the United Stated constitution.

Yoda

[Guest]

I never thought that this administration is idiots but I suspect that some may be domestic enemies ot the United Stated constitution.

Yoda

Isn't that just a bit dramatic! Domestic enemies of the Constitution. Fear, violence, hatred, fear, death panels, brain-washing, spying on us, fear, socialists, fascists, radicals, racists, fear, tea-*******, birthers, fear...

The common thread in all the right-wing rhetoric is FEAR! Yes, 9/11 shook us all to the core and all of this talk of FEAR is exactly what they (the real enemy) wanted. THEY (Al-Qaeda) changed the rules of the game -- and you're playing by them! And in case you don't think I have a dog in this fight, my step-son was in the third tower of the World Trade Center that collapsed. Thank God, everyone was evacuated by that time.

President Obama didn't sneak in the backdoor of the White House. He was voted in by the majority! The majority of Americans do not fear him or his administration. Do we have the right to critique, be watchful, ask questions??? Of course we do! But, these ridiculous smear fear campaigns fueled by the likes of Beck, Limbaugh and Fox Noise is beyond comprehension.

We are not the only game in town... and guess what....right now, we are not the best game in town! But I know we can be! I will support my President, my country, and our fighting forces with every fiber of my being.

Don't play into the real enemy's hands. Try taking the word fear out of your vocabulary and replacing it with support. Show a united front. The world is watching.

[Guest]

I never thought that this administration is idiots but I suspect that some may be domestic enemies ot the United Stated constitution.

Yoda

You may suspect that some are but we know that the former Administration, in fact, assulted the constitution.

Domestic spying under FISA....wiring tap calls at the branch.

[Guest]

You may suspect that some are but we know that the former Administration, in fact, assulted the constitution.

Domestic spying under FISA....wiring tap calls at the branch.

I dont understand how it always gets back to the Bush administration but it does...just a note...Sen Obama supported and voted fro FISA, and is continuning most of the repugnent Bush policies in this area !

[Guest]

Isn't that just a bit dramatic! Domestic enemies of the Constitution. Fear, violence, hatred, fear, death panels, brain-washing, spying on us, fear, socialists, fascists, radicals, racists, fear, tea-*******, birthers, fear...

The common thread in all the right-wing rhetoric is FEAR! Yes, 9/11 shook us all to the core and all of this talk of FEAR is exactly what they (the real enemy) wanted. THEY (Al-Qaeda) changed the rules of the game -- and you're playing by them! And in case you don't think I have a dog in this fight, my step-son was in the third tower of the World Trade Center that collapsed. Thank God, everyone was evacuated by that time.

President Obama didn't sneak in the backdoor of the White House. He was voted in by the majority! The majority of Americans do not fear him or his administration. Do we have the right to critique, be watchful, ask questions??? Of course we do! But, these ridiculous smear fear campaigns fueled by the likes of Beck, Limbaugh and Fox Noise is beyond comprehension.

We are not the only game in town... and guess what....right now, we are not the best game in town! But I know we can be! I will support my President, my country, and our fighting forces with every fiber of my being.

Don't play into the real enemy's hands. Try taking the word fear out of your vocabulary and replacing it with support. Show a united front. The world is watching.


I wont even comment on your continuing worry and angst over what the rest of the world thinks...will just say that I dont care what they think of this country...they are surely not my model for what I want to be !!!

I might add that despite your protestations about our country, I still consider us the best....not sure who you think is the best game in town !! I would assume your feeling that this country is not the best is fueled by our current administration !

You keep mentioning fear which is the common chant among Democrats....we should not live in fear and that the right is selling fear. I cannot disagree more.....fear is surely part of it...fear is a natural reaction,,if you read you will find that it is a natural human reaction to events, NOT as you suggest an unnatural feeling.

NOW...living IN fear is different, and nobody that I have ever heard of or listened to or read even suggests that although folks like you will always make that case.

What I feel and read and know is that if you know someone want to hurt you (in this case KILL), and they have already been successful and they spend their entire life on one thing....KILLING YOU. Well, it seems to me that you should be at least AWARE of that and allow that to enter into your thinking, instead of reckless abandon like a teenager who feels untouchable. That would be foolish !

[Guest]

I don't understand how it always gets back to the Bush administration but it does...just a note...Sen Obama supported and voted fro FISA, and is continuning most of the repugnent Bush policies in this area !

Bucco.....it gets back to the Bush Administration when someone says the Obama is assaulting the constitution. But you all won't look at that...thats in the past.

You are on Medicare and don't want it touched.....that is good. You like your Medicare the single payer healthcare program. This is simple...all we have to do is extend Medicare to everyone and things will be fixed.

[Guest]

in less than ten years to everybody and that will fix it?
How can we add more to the Medicare roles and have that be the solution when it is on it's way to the tank?

Without health care reform Medicare is headed for a bail out. Grow the ranks and the bail out comes sooner. The alternatives are reduced coverage...increased costs whether by taxation or health care premiums rising.

If you are contemplating the government going after the waste and fraud in the current Medicare to fund ANYTHING....look at history....it will not happen.

Less coverage and increased cost to all currently on Medicare....guaranteed on the way to your mail box as the politicians lull y'all to sleep with the usual BS!!!!

btk

[Guest]

in less than ten years to everybody and that will fix it?
How can we add more to the Medicare roles and have that be the solution when it is on it's way to the tank?

Without health care reform Medicare is headed for a bail out. Grow the ranks and the bail out comes sooner. The alternatives are reduced coverage...increased costs whether by taxation or health care premiums rising.

If you are contemplating the government going after the waste and fraud in the current Medicare to fund ANYTHING....look at history....it will not happen.

Less coverage and increased cost to all currently on Medicare....guaranteed on the way to your mail box as the politicians lull y'all to sleep with the usual BS!!!!

btk

So let me understand your position is:

Keep your hands off my Medicare....but be sure to fix it before it tanks. And the rest of us can just fend for ourselves until our retirement age which keeps going up.

Sound fair to me.

[Guest]

So let me understand your position is:

Keep your hands off my Medicare....but be sure to fix it before it tanks. And the rest of us can just fend for ourselves until our retirement age which keeps going up.

Sound fair to me.


WOW....Cologal...you sure put a lot of words in BTK's mouth that I sure didnt read !

[Guest]

My point is....was....has been....the system is not viable as it exists currently....the system may be what ever one cares to define it as based on their own experience.
Medicare, which works very well for most people is forecast to be insolvent in less than 10 years.
The current reform run away train is frought with cost increases....tax increases....diluted services....etc.....etc.

All of my posts on this subject have been about the complete disaster that is already in place and the new one being proposed....the cost and the subsequent impact on all it touches....the impact is party insensitive!!!!

Your interpretation of what I said is distorted and completely incorrect. However you conjured up your conclusion you are just simply wrong. I hate having to explain myself but I will not let anybody restate what I post to suit their own agenda or for what ever reason.

btk

[Guest]

My point is....was....has been....the system is not viable as it exists currently....the system may be what ever one cares to define it as based on their own experience.
Medicare, which works very well for most people is forecast to be insolvent in less than 10 years.
The current reform run away train is fraught with cost increases....tax increases....diluted services....etc.....etc.

All of my posts on this subject have been about the complete disaster that is already in place and the new one being proposed....the cost and the subsequent impact on all it touches....the impact is party insensitive!!!!

Your interpretation of what I said is distorted and completely incorrect. However you conjured up your conclusion you are just simply wrong. I hate having to explain myself but I will not let anybody restate what I post to suit their own agenda or for what ever reason.

btk

Assuming you are on Medicare...so you are ready to turn in your Medicare card because the system doesn't work.

Healthcare in the private sector is also in trouble. 52% of all bankruptcy's are medical cost related. Medical coverage is lost if you lose your job. Pre-existing conditions are NOT covered so in many cases one cannot get healthcare coverage. If you happen to get coverage the company can cancel the policy when you need it, like you get cancer. They often pour over you application trying find a mistake in your application to rescind the policy. Many policies have lifetime caps....those don't hold up if you have a major illness or trauma.

So we have a problem....how would you fix it. Leaving it the way it is ....is not an option.

[Guest]

You are entitled to your opinion, but please TRY to refrain from restating what others are posting in your own words to suit what ever purpose. And I am not going to go into explanation mode again to provide more fodder for mis-interpretation/misunderstanding.

btk

[Guest]

When you get to the point where you have more people in the cart than are pulling the cart no longer have America. We are very close.

Obama wants everyone in the cart with government pulling.

Chles is correct on one thing. They are no idiots. Obama's plan from the very beginning was do decimate the private sector and replace it with government.

What they are doing, they are doing on purpose. That's why we continue to loose millions of jobs and he does nothing. The ONLY way to create jobs is to incentivise business. Obama is doing the exact opposite.

Well said. I like the phrase that everybody will have to pay for Obamacare.
Unless one is low income and the Gov ( oops I meant Me ) will pay .:swear:

[Guest]

CBO says as much as $4000 per year more for a family. I can't afford it, can you?

He said the goal was to lower cost... again he lied. Nothing he's doing or ever will do will lower any cost cost for anyone. He is trying to drive the population at large so far under you have no choice but to turn to the government.

Add in his income tax increases, increased and forced health care premiums, cap-n-tax, probably a VAT among other things and you have a middle class that will fold under the pressure. All going according to plan.

[Guest]

CBO says as much as $4000 per year more for a family. I can't afford it, can you?

He said the goal was to lower cost... again he lied. Nothing he's doing or ever will do will lower any cost cost for anyone. He is trying to drive the population at large so far under you have no choice but to turn to the government.

Add in his income tax increases, increased and forced health care premiums, cap-n-tax, probably a VAT among other things and you have a middle class that will fold under the pressure. All going according to plan.

dklassen, you are succinctly on the mark. They are not idiots as someone pointed out. The White House and Washington are infested with capitalist and American exceptionalism hating radicals who only want to increase government's power and their own, at the expense of liberty and freedom. The destabilizing of our economy through wealth and health redistribution is the backbone of the plan.

[Guest]

of us your views regarding the prospect of substantial increases in taxes and costs for health care?

The question is: what are your views regarding the prospect of substantial increases in taxes and costs for health care?

btk

[Guest]

Assuming you are on Medicare...so you are ready to turn in your Medicare card because the system doesn't work.

Healthcare in the private sector is also in trouble. 52% of all bankruptcy's are medical cost related. Medical coverage is lost if you lose your job. Pre-existing conditions are NOT covered so in many cases one cannot get healthcare coverage. If you happen to get coverage the company can cancel the policy when you need it, like you get cancer. They often pour over you application trying find a mistake in your application to rescind the policy. Many policies have lifetime caps....those don't hold up if you have a major illness or trauma.

So we have a problem....how would you fix it. Leaving it the way it is ....is not an option.
I fully agree with you that the status quo is not acceptable. I proposed a simple two-part solution to the problem last month.

https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24528

(1) Extend existing Federal Employees health care programs to all Americans.
(2) Instituting real medical malpractice reform with a strong loser pays that applies both to the plaintiff and the law firm bringing the complaint.
These two steps achieve universal coverage availability, prevention of exclusion of pre-existing conditions, lifetime cap limits, and dropping already insured people and provide competition.

What’s wrong with this process?
A. It could take effect immediately, rather than waiting until 2013 as Obamacare requires before the first person can be added to those covered (no need to construct an entirely new government bureaucracy before anything can be done).
B. It eliminates entirely the need for a government option – which Barney Frank has correctly said is a Trojan horse for a single-payer system.
C. It hits back at the Democrats sacred cow, the trial lawyers.
D. It requires no new taxes, even those on ‘Cadillac’ health plans.
E. It eliminates the illegal alien problem. If they pay, they play.
In short, it largely solves the problems without further government intrusion into American lives. This is not acceptable to those who seek continually expansion of government and its accompanying control over our lives. It frustrates those who wish to have a ‘nanny’ state that outlaws trans fat and foie gras and taxes such things as soft drinks and juices.

[Guest]

I'm curious. when the government denies the bone marrow transplant because you are too old, too expensive or too whatever, who are you going to sue?

Right or wrong good or bad, private you have recourse. Government you have nothing.

There are too many cases of "Private" insurance plans doing those two things already, so to lay it on any "vast government conspiracy" is false, if not disingenuous.

1.) Anyone requiring a bone marrow transplant probably has a "pre-existing condition." Certainly, as a self-employed individual, my insurance would not cover such a procedure,since I would be dropped from coverage like a hot potato. As exposed last Spring, Assurant health issues only 1 year policies, therefore any condition occuring in the previous year, even if you had their policy the previous year is considered a "pre-existing" condition. Clever, huh!

2.) Insurance policies have bean-counters who can just as easily deny any surgery, as any Federal program would. But look at Medicare-have you heard of many denials? And there is no pre-existing clause. The appeal process is long and tedious, and set-up to work against the patient. How much energy can a person facing bone-marrow transplants really exert in challengin a multi-billion corporation? Beyond that, how long would a lawsuit against a denial take? The patient would be dead by the time the decsion came down. This has happened MANY times for many illnesses.

[Guest]

What's your point? Do you suggest these horrible things will not occur under a public, government option? Or perhaps, under a government option, with cold, calculating efficiency tempered with the politics in the equation, it will somehow be the better of two evils?

[Guest]

There are too many cases of "Private" insurance plans doing those two things already, so to lay it on any "vast government conspiracy" is false, if not disingenuous.


2.) Insurance policies have bean-counters who can just as easily deny any surgery, as any Federal program would. But look at Medicare-have you heard of many denials? And there is no pre-existing clause. The appeal process is long and tedious, and set-up to work against the patient. How much energy can a person facing bone-marrow transplants really exert in challengin a multi-billion corporation? Beyond that, how long would a lawsuit against a denial take? The patient would be dead by the time the decsion came down. This has happened MANY times for many illnesses.

When you say that insurance companies should not have a have a policy of denying pre-existing conditions, you are either uninformed or disingenuous and just trying to justify Socialized Medicine.

The purpose of health insurance is to share the risk. If you had your way, there would be a kiosk in front of every hospital so that you could buy insurance just before you were admitted. Wouldn't that be nice? The problem would be that there would be no insurance companies or the premium would be the cost of the operation plus a little profit. Nobody in their right mind would carry insurance if they could pick it up at the door.
If one maintains a continuity of insurance, pre-existing conditions are rarely a problem. I agree that the system needs some work but don't cut off your nose to spite your face.

Yoda

[Guest]

When you say that insurance companies should not have a have a policy of denying pre-existing conditions, you are either uninformed or disingenuous and just trying to justify Socialized Medicine.

The purpose of health insurance is to share the risk. If you had your way, there would be a kiosk in front of every hospital so that you could buy insurance just before you were admitted. Wouldn't that be nice? The problem would be that there would be no insurance companies or the premium would be the cost of the operation plus a little profit. Nobody in their right mind would carry insurance if they could pick it up at the door.
If one maintains a continuity of insurance, pre-existing conditions are rarely a problem. I agree that the system needs some work but don't cut off your nose to spite your face.

Yoda

But if the insurance companies only insure the "healthy" and can cancel a policy when someone gets sick with a major illness then there is NO or little risk sharing.

[Guest]

But if the insurance companies only insure the "healthy" and can cancel a policy when someone gets sick with a major illness then there is NO or little risk sharing.

All things being equal, taking on any risk at any time, without precondition limitations exposes insurance companies to high expenses from an insured who has never paid a premium. (Yoda's kiosk). On the other hand, we want insurance companies to cover pre-existing conditions. Why not a short, eg 60 day, waiting period?

[Guest]

All things being equal, taking on any risk at any time, without precondition limitations exposes insurance companies to high expenses from an insured who has never paid a premium. (Yoda's kiosk). On the other hand, we want insurance companies to cover pre-existing conditions. Why not a short, eg 60 day, waiting period?

I could agree on several of your points....tort reform should be a requirement especially at the state level. Most, if not all, malpractice suits are filed at the state level.

Lifetime caps are also a big problem which needs to be addressed

As for illegal aliens my plan would be, if they show up in an ER treat them, check for a green card and call ICE if needed.

Reasonable waiting period is fine with me.

[Guest]

When you say that insurance companies should not have a have a policy of denying pre-existing conditions, you are either uninformed or disingenuous and just trying to justify Socialized Medicine.

The purpose of health insurance is to share the risk. If you had your way, there would be a kiosk in front of every hospital so that you could buy insurance just before you were admitted. Wouldn't that be nice? The problem would be that there would be no insurance companies or the premium would be the cost of the operation plus a little profit. Nobody in their right mind would carry insurance if they could pick it up at the door.
If one maintains a continuity of insurance, pre-existing conditions are rarely a problem. I agree that the system needs some work but don't cut off your nose to spite your face.

Yoda

Right now the system is rigged not by health of the individual, or even the class of individual, but rather totally by the economy of scale that insurance companies use for corporate, union and government policies. As a self-employed individual, I have no chance to even ENTER those economies of scale.

Should I pay less for electricity because I live in The "Huge" Villages v. the smaller Water Oak? Should I be charged less for fire, police or other services supplied, incidentally, by our socialist government structures because I live in a larger development?

Why should I be charged more, if I am exactly as healthy as you, but you pay much less through your union plan or medicare plan? This is not a healthcare system, this is a profit system. It's time to make health care about health care- not about profit margins that are identical to profit margins for making widgets.

Providing for the common good is for the common good of the American people.

I love the brainiacs at ********* parties who say "Keep the Government out of my Medicare and Social Security" Duh!

[Guest]

But if the insurance companies only insure the "healthy" and can cancel a policy when someone gets sick with a major illness then there is NO or little risk sharing.

That is a rare thing but should be looked into within the system. Believe me they don't just insure healthy people. If I were to break continuity of coverage, I bet they'd love to dump me. I know the rules and play by them. I don't whine and try to beat them. I support trying to change the rules.

Millions of people are helped by insurance. Relatively few get screwed.

Yoda

[Guest]

That is a rare thing but should be looked into within the system. Believe me they don't just insure healthy people. If I were to break continuity of coverage, I bet they'd love to dump me. I know the rules and play by them. I don't whine and try to beat them. I support trying to change the rules.

Millions of people are helped by insurance. Relatively few get screwed.

Yoda

Yoda....you and me both. I had better keep my job cause there is no way an insurance company would extend me insurance. The scary part for me is last week 280 people were laid off by my company....this week 29 more...for the year we have to be up to 500. This after the plan explained to us was we don't get a raise this year which will save jobs.

I play by the rules and try to keep my head down.

[Guest]

Yoda....you and me both. I had better keep my job cause there is no way an insurance company would extend me insurance. The scary part for me is last week 280 people were laid off by my company....this week 29 more...for the year we have to be up to 500. This after the plan explained to us was we don't get a raise this year which will save jobs.

I play by the rules and try to keep my head down.

It is not quite as bad as all that. COBRA requires that your ex-employer or insurance company allow you to purchase, at group rates, the policy under which you had been covered. This goes for a period of 18-39 months depending upon the situation. After that you can apply for individual coverage w/o any preexisting condition disqualifications. The individual plans used to be quite bad, but BC/BS has stepped up with some highly competitive plans as more people are self-employed.

[Guest]

I hear the health bill just grew by almost 1000 pages behind locked doors. Anyone care to guess whats in it before they vote this week? I bet they don't even know.

[Guest]

If it was hard to read the 1200 page version, the 1,990 page version (according to a page count I've read in a couple of places on the net) means some 60% more legalese to wade through.

What fun!

NOT!

[Guest]

I could agree on several of your points....tort reform should be a requirement especially at the state level. Most, if not all, malpractice suits are filed at the state level.

Lifetime caps are also a big problem which needs to be addressed

As for illegal aliens my plan would be, if they show up in an ER treat them, check for a green card and call ICE if needed.

Reasonable waiting period is fine with me.

Cologal, Sure is nice to see that we do NOT disagree on everything. I like some of your thinking.:coolsmiley::coolsmiley:

[Guest]

I have to admit I'm a little creeped out by the thought of a triage nurse saying "Your papers, please" - but, in principle, I believ ethat *if* we are going to have public health care it should be a *privilege* of being an American Citizen or *legal* taxpaying resident.