FL school shooting - NON-POLITICAL

[DeanFL]

here we go, yet again. We live in a large free country with many diverse people, and some have serious mental or social issues. As is the case in this latest one.

I am a true Independent and believe in different sides of all issues facing us in the USA. But the gun issue is one that I have steadily moved to the "Something has GOT to be done" side. Seems as if the Gun Control laws in many areas such as Chicago do not work. Perhaps it's enforcement matter or simply the Black Market or purchasing elsewhere and bringing them into the 'war zone'.

What truly saddens me is the easy availability of semi-automatic weapons and mass lethal ammo. How these weapons can be obtained at gun shows etc without checks or such is maddening. No idea where this perp got his weapons - or how he afforded them. But he did and apparently many knew he had them.

Then we come to the Social ills. Mental issues. Little family structure. The violent video games. And more..

Apparently this young man has had multiple run-ins, friends knew of his issues, social media postings and such.

We can protect our schools and buildings just so much. If they want to get in they will. And now - the fire alarm matter - what to do now...how to have students obey an alarm or not??? How can students concentrate on classes?

Sad for our country and the people that were impacted by this and other events. But one thing for sure this will be a big topic for weeks....then a memory....then another. repeat - UNTIL SOME PEOPLE CAN MAKE REAL CHANGES THAT HAVE SOME IMPACT.

[Bogie Shooter]

here we go, yet again. We live in a large free country with many diverse people, and some have serious mental or social issues. As is the case in this latest one.

I am a true Independent and believe in different sides of all issues facing us in the USA. But the gun issue is one that I have steadily moved to the "Something has GOT to be done" side. Seems as if the Gun Control laws in many areas such as Chicago do not work. Perhaps it's enforcement matter or simply the Black Market or purchasing elsewhere and bringing them into the 'war zone'.

What truly saddens me is the easy availability of semi-automatic weapons and mass lethal ammo. How these weapons can be obtained at gun shows etc without checks or such is maddening. No idea where this perp got his weapons - or how he afforded them. But he did and apparently many knew he had them.

Then we come to the Social ills. Mental issues. Little family structure. The violent video games. And more..

Apparently this young man has had multiple run-ins, friends knew of his issues, social media postings and such.

We can protect our schools and buildings just so much. If they want to get in they will. And now - the fire alarm matter - what to do now...how to have students obey an alarm or not??? How can students concentrate on classes?

Sad for our country and the people that were impacted by this and other events. But one thing for sure this will be a big topic for weeks....then a memory....then another. repeat - UNTIL SOME PEOPLE CAN MAKE REAL CHANGES THAT HAVE SOME IMPACT.
Will be a topic for far less than weeks.........

[Madelaine Amee]

Will be a topic for far less than weeks.........


Unfortunately, so true. As a nation we have become immune to violence even when it comes to killing children! Sad commentary on our country!

[Polar Bear]

Unfortunately, so true. As a nation we have become immune to violence even when it comes to killing children! Sad commentary on our country!
I couldn’t disagree more.

No event stays in the forefront forever. That doesn’t mean it is forgotten. Our country sincerely grieves and mourns greatly every incident. And tries like heck to do something about it.

But it’s a very difficult problem with no easy solution. And no solution will eliminate all acts of senseless violence.

[graciegirl]

Unfortunately, so true. As a nation we have become immune to violence even when it comes to killing children! Sad commentary on our country!

I don't think any of us reading this have become immune to violence. WHAT to do about it? We cannot lock up all mentally ill people. If we start removing guns from people who own them, we would get those from people with ethics. Only.

I think assault rifles should not be sold anymore. There is NO WAY we can remove them from the hands of people who have them. As for mental illness? That is the hardest problem to solve, not only who are mentally ill, and how sick are they, but who are a potential threat and who are not. I find this man Nicholas Cruz had a lot of things unusual happen to him. He was put up for adoption by his birth mother and he and his biological brother were adopted by Roger and Lynda Cruz. They had just moved to Florida and never had children. Roger Cruz died when Nicholas was six and Lynda died just this past November from Pneumonia at 68. Nicholas had been identified with an Autism Spectrum disorder as a young child. In November Nicholas went to live with friends of his family and they were aware he had an assault weapon.

He will be held accountable by the law and he should be, in my opinion.. I wonder what could have been done to avert this disaster? What could we do differently? I think the answer lies in how and who are raising little humans and how they are doing it. People often turn over their children to people who they would not give their car keys to. Children are taught right and wrong when they are under the age of five, or they absorb it from the people who are with them. Parents are assuming the role of indulging grandparents because they are not with their children as much as our generation was.

But that is MY opinion and it is only one factor in this worrisome, heartbreaking mess.

[billethkid]

I personally believe we need to be more responsive to individuals who exhibit, or proclaim to commit violence.
As I read this morning the FBI was made aware of this individuals claim to become a professional school shooter....plus other inputs from students and teachers.

I also believe we have progressed to the point of being so litigious about anything and everything to a point where enforcement has far too much potential to become compromised as a result.

The issue is not just gun or mental illness... enforcement intimidation is a serious contributor.

[karostay]

When you look at ALL our politicians news media I mean all everyone.
They set no example for today's youth.
They conduct themselves like bullies with demeaning and demoralizing conduct and when an incident of this magnitude occurs they say .
They look at each other like deer in a headlight and say
What could possibly make an individual act in such a manor ?

[autumnspring]

I don't think any of us reading this have become immune to violence. WHAT to do about it? We cannot lock up all mentally ill people. If we start removing guns from people who own them, we would get those from people with ethics. Only.

I think assault rifles should not be sold anymore. There is NO WAY we can remove them from the hands of people who have them. As for mental illness? That is the hardest problem to solve, not only who are mentally ill, and how sick are they, but who are a potential threat and who are not. I find this man Nicholas Cruz had a lot of things unusual happen to him. He was put up for adoption by his birth mother and he and his biological brother were adopted by Roger and Lynda Cruz. They had just moved to Florida and never had children. Roger Cruz died when Nicholas was six and Lynda died just this past November from Pneumonia at 68. Nicholas had been identified with an Autism Spectrum disorder as a young child. In November Nicholas went to live with friends of his family and they were aware he had an assault weapon.

He will be held accountable by the law and he should be, in my opinion.. I wonder what could have been done to avert this disaster? What could we do differently? I think the answer lies in how and who are raising little humans and how they are doing it. People often turn over their children to people who they would not give their car keys to. Children are taught right and wrong when they are under the age of five, or they absorb it from the people who are with them. Parents are assuming the role of indulging grandparents because they are not with their children as much as our generation was.

But that is MY opinion and it is only one factor in this worrisome, heartbreaking mess.

Under our legal system, you cannot be arrested because someone thinks you might commit a crime. In this case the perpetrator was 18. Some of you seem to think we should arrest all 18 year olds. In reality, if I recall most violent crime is done by people under 25-an easy solution. YES, it does get ridiculous.

As to stated ASSAULT RIFLES. Sadly, this term is MISUSED by people lacking in knowledge. It is not the fault of the people but the fault of the press OK THE LIBERAL PRESS with an anti-gun bias. PLEASE LOOK IT UP. DO NOT TAKE MY WORD. An assault rifle, a word a phrase that many will parrot, is by definition an automatic weapon. You pull the trigger and it keeps shooting. IT IS ILLEGAL TO OWN ONE AND HAS BEEN SINCE ABOUT 1920.

We all, including me, have after the event from the safety of our homes have all kinds of suggestions. TRUTH is that it is after the fact in a state of safety. LIFE IS A RISK.
The good news is that the crime rate is actually down since the 1920's. The crime rate in the US is actually going down. Laughing a bit but since young people commit most violet crime, what we know is that our population is aging.

[Chi-Town]

Unfortunately, too many politicians are beholden to the NRA to make a needed change.

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[PersonalChoice]

These shootings happen in gun-free zones. Teachers and school staff should be allowed to conceal carry in schools, after they obtain the proper training. When seconds count, the police are minutes away. My thoughts and prayers are for all those affected by this horrific event in Broward County.

[fw102807]

This may not be a political post but this needs to be addressed to your politicians since they are the only ones who can do anything about it. We can discuss it ad nauseum but it is not going to change anything.

[Polar Bear]

...this needs to be addressed to your politicians since they are the only ones who can do anything about it...
Very debatable.
...We can discuss it ad nauseum but it is not going to change anything.
What’s your point?

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

These shootings happen in gun-free zones. Teachers and school staff should be allowed to conceal carry in schools, after they obtain the proper training. When seconds count, the police are minutes away. My thoughts and prayers are for all those affected by this horrific event in Broward County.

Making more laws is ineffective. Laws don't prevent crimes, they define crime and provide for punishment if the perpetrator is caught. This guy violated many laws including having a firearm on school property. Making the school a gun free zone did not stop this crime. More laws will not stop other crimes. Making it more difficult for law-abiding citizens to obtain firearms that they want to have for personal protection won't stop criminals from obtaining firearms illegally. Limiting magazine capacity won't do anything as mags can be changed in a second or less. Banning "assault weapons" was tried and was ineffective, especially since there is no real definition of an assault weapon. Should we ban all semi-automatic weapons? That would involve banning 95% of all the guns that are out there. Then criminals would find a way to get them illegally and law-abiding citizens would be at a disadvantage.

If these killers can't get a gun legally, they will get one illegally, If they can't get a gun, they will find a way to make homemade bombs.

My solution would be to make it mandatory that all teachers, be licensed, trained and armed while at work.

It's a requirement for the police who protect us elsewhere. Why not make it a requirement for those entrusted with protecting our children?

In the case of yesterday's shooting, there was an armed officer at the opposite end of the school. There is no way for one or two officers to be everywhere and it's not often not possible for them to get to a scene in time. In this case, the shooter was familiar with the school and might have selected the location because he knew that the officer would not be close by.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Unfortunately, too many politicians are beholden to the NRA to make a needed change.

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Semi-automatic handguns can also fire 45 rounds a minute. Should we ban those also?

It might help when talking about gun laws that one knows a bit about guns. Do you think that banning AR-15s will prevent criminals who want one from getting one?

[Bucco]

Reports in the last few hours indicate the shooter was involved with a white supremicist group.

Alleged Gunman Nikolas Cruz Was in White Supremacist Group | Time (http://time.com/5160819/parkland-shooter-nikolas-cruz-was-a-member-of-white-supremacist-group/)

Florida school shooter belonged to white supremacist group, leader claims | TheHill (http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/374050-white-supremacist-group-leader-claims-florida-school-shooter-was)

While I endorse making it more difficult to buy guns, I do agree that we should be looking more "inward" to address the hate that preoccupies our country, and certain of us that have a need to express our hate for groups, etc.

Social media is giving a platform to so many "haters" among us, who in a hateful manner simply reject other human beings. Many have, and will, take that hate to the next level.

Gun control..sure. Hate and visicious conversation is a refelection of what is happening in our country.

[Fredster]

Unfortunately, so true. As a nation we have become immune to violence even when it comes to killing children! Sad commentary on our country!

There has been immunity to violence around for a long time.
Many years ago I used to drive into Chicago from the suburbs daily.
I would listen to the news on my car radio,
and one monday morning a newscaster said there
were seven shooting deaths
over the weekend.
The thought occurred to me that this happened so often,
that people just accepted it as a way of life.
And sadly it still goes on!

[mscocco]

Sadly these types of incidents have been on the rise and I fear it will only continue to get worse. I see two key reasons that back up my statement. First off, these sick individuals are attracted to the possibility and power of inflicting mass casualties. Doing so gives them a very powerful feeling, gets more media coverage, makes a bigger impact, and drives their own infamy. Secondly, our lax gun laws essentially make it very easy for them to purchase the very tools needed - semi-automatic, fast firing weapons with high capacity magazines. Firing 45 rounds a minute has the potential to inflict much more damage than 6 or 8 rounds a minutes or a small clip that requires reloading after a few shots.

I question the real need in a public realm for semi-automatics (rifle OR handgun) and don't consider sensible limitations any infringement on 2nd amendment rights. It just seems that if you take away the ease with which someone can carry out a mass shooting then it's reasonable to think the number of these will go down. Could an alternate arise, such a s homemade bombs? Sure but I think this is harder to carry out and also the damage potential is likely more limited and may even be more likely they'd be caught before carrying it out.

We must put politics aside and in some case make compromises for consideration of safety in this crazy world. There are many, many responsible gun owners out there but availability and accessibility to these mass casualty weapons, to me, are a simple place we can start in trying to reduce the number of children and innocent people that are getting slaughtered. How those guns are restricted or limited is open for discussion but more guns doe not equal a safer world. It just doesn't work that way and countries all around the world have already proven that.

[fw102807]

Very debatable.

What’s your point?

OK so how do you feel that this can be resolved without legislation?

[graciegirl]

Reports in the last few hours indicate the shooter was involved with a white supremicist group.

Alleged Gunman Nikolas Cruz Was in White Supremacist Group | Time (http://time.com/5160819/parkland-shooter-nikolas-cruz-was-a-member-of-white-supremacist-group/)

Florida school shooter belonged to white supremacist group, leader claims | TheHill (http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/374050-white-supremacist-group-leader-claims-florida-school-shooter-was)

While I endorse making it more difficult to buy guns, I do agree that we should be looking more "inward" to address the hate that preoccupies our country, and certain of us that have a need to express our hate for groups, etc.

Social media is giving a platform to so many "haters" among us, who in a hateful manner simply reject other human beings. Many have, and will, take that hate to the next level.

Gun control..sure. Hate and visicious conversation is a refelection of what is happening in our country.

I have also read that he READ things from Militant Islamic groups too. I don't know if that means he was involved and I am not defending him.

I have never, ever, in my entire life met anyone who was a KKK supporter. The Southern Poverty Center says that there are less than 5000 of KKK people in the United States and that is 5000 too many.

When we exaggerate any fact, we add fuel to hatred and become part of the problems of the world.

[Bucco]

I have also read that he READ things from Militant Islamic groups too. I don't know if that means he was involved and I am not defending him.

I have never, ever, in my entire life met anyone who was a KKK supporter. The Southern Poverty Center says that there are less than 5000 of KKK people in the United States and that is 5000 too many.

When we exaggerate any fact, we add fuel to hatred and become part of the problems of the world.

Obviously I was not clear with my post.

While I read nothing about any Muslim groups ever...my post has NOTHING to do with Muslims or the KKK at all, as you turned it.

I simply was pointing out that our country is so involved in hate, no it matters not who you hate, but the key is our society has become...let's say..."NOT TOLERANT" of anyone who might not have the same feelings as others

Social platforms allow an outpouring of this hate, and if anyone is "on the edge", the constant "hatespeak" will effect them and perhaps move them to this kind of action.

My mind NEVER went to any specific group as yours did, and whether you were "defending" anyone or anything means little.

We are a country that just have stopped understanding or even trying. We just verbally show hate, and some WILL take it to more than just words.

That was not my point. Heck, more kids have been killed in school shootings than by terrorists, BY FAR. I am sure I am not verbally qualified to get my meaning across, but let's understand...our country is filled with hate...we need to recognize those who show signs of turning the hate into action.

Again, my entire purpose was to agree with those who say that reducing guns alone will not solve the problem. These are children....we, as adults should show some qualities that they should aspire to. These children have no knowledge of politics BUT they sure can identify hate.

[GoodLife]

Firing 45 rounds a second

Uh no

[EPutnam1863]

Nothing will change anything. Mental illnesses and mental disorders will never ever be erased from this earth. We cannot arrest anyone unless a crime is actually committed so identifying predictors would be only useless.

[fw102807]

Nothing will change anything. Mental illnesses and mental disorders will never ever be erased from this earth. We cannot arrest anyone unless a crime is actually committed so identifying predictors would be only useless.

Other countries have had good success with addiction, mental health and gun violence. But people in our country are more interested in rights than responsibilities.

[Bucco]

This thread should be closed..... to political and controversial

Obviously i disagree. Only one post even ventured near political talk.

Killing our children is NOT controversial, or at least I do not think so. If those who make the laws will not discuss it, and we are told it is "controversial" then where are we.

Some think is all about guns....others think it is all about mental health, and others, my self included, feel it is a combination of the two, but if where are going to ignore it and bury our heads, more children are destined to die.

Words will never solve this problem, but based on our history, once the words stop, it all stops.

Why even take a chance at having your grandchildren go through what those kids went through yesterday ?

Everyone gets all "bent out of shape" when americans take to the street to march for a cause yet they refuse to even entertain the idea of, in this case, a discussion of and modification of gun laws or mental health laws, BOTH OF WHICH by the way are overwhelmingly supported in all polls I have ever seen.

I still believe that our society has become blind and deaf to anything and any disagreements are not discussed but simply met with more "hate speech" defined as "speech expressing hatred of a particular group of people"

Our young kids deserve better. They look to adults to provide some kind of structure.

I, for one, am sick of seeing kids suffer like this. I think there should be a national conversation and if "gun control" is an offensive term to some, make it a conversation on "protecting our children from death AT school"

The frustration is building in this country. Lots of Americans are simply ignored and dismissed. This is an important issue in this country and to simply say, "lets not talk about it" is not something we want to pass on to our kids. The young kids will learn history in school. They look to the so called adults.

This can be discussed without poliltics and if it cannot then perhaps those who cannot should examine themselves just a bit.

Thus far this year, 18 school shootings and in this short century we have lost to bullets over 300 children simply because they went to school that day.

THAT is not political nor is it "controversial" in my opinion. Children, not at war....Children, not in a war zone....some how it seems we need to have this conversation.

I agree that perhaps TOTV is not the proper place, but it is NOT political and every forum in this country should be talking about it, not in a political way but with real feelings for our precious children.

[Bucco]

Other countries have had good success with addiction, mental health and gun violence. But people in our country are more interested in rights than responsibilities.

Philip Mudd, last night had to leave the set because of his tears.

He is former national director of the National Security Branch, and the first ever, and that only means he has "been around the block" a few times.

He said..."“A child of god is dead. Can not we acknowledge in this country that we can’t, we cannot accept this?”

"“We refuse to accept that we can learn from other countries,” he added. “It’s not that complicated.”

This is NOT political, or at least should not be, and again....I am not speaking of GUNS ALONE....but....

Protecting our children in school and help in providing example.

[bob47]

Sadly these types of incidents have been on the rise and I fear it will only continue to get worse. I see two key reasons that back up my statement. First off, these sick individuals are attracted to the possibility and power of inflicting mass casualties. Doing so gives them a very powerful feeling, gets more media coverage, makes a bigger impact, and drives their own infamy. Secondly, our lax gun laws essentially make it very easy for them to purchase the very tools needed - semi-automatic, fast firing weapons with high capacity magazines. Firing 45 rounds a minute has the potential to inflict much more damage than 6 or 8 rounds a minutes or a small clip that requires reloading after a few shots.

I question the real need in a public realm for semi-automatics (rifle OR handgun) and don't consider sensible limitations any infringement on 2nd amendment rights. It just seems that if you take away the ease with which someone can carry out a mass shooting then it's reasonable to think the number of these will go down. Could an alternate arise, such a s homemade bombs? Sure but I think this is harder to carry out and also the damage potential is likely more limited and may even be more likely they'd be caught before carrying it out.

We must put politics aside and in some case make compromises for consideration of safety in this crazy world. There are many, many responsible gun owners out there but availability and accessibility to these mass casualty weapons, to me, are a simple place we can start in trying to reduce the number of children and innocent people that are getting slaughtered. How those guns are restricted or limited is open for discussion but more guns doe not equal a safer world. It just doesn't work that way and countries all around the world have already proven that.

This sounds eminently logical to me. But the NRA will tell you that more guns in more hands will make us all safer. You can't predict when somebody who is OK today may go off the deep end in the future. That's why you have to be reasonable in what tools are available to the citizens to do harm.

The poster that shows how weapons have evolved over 200 years makes a good point. Add to that there are many more citizens now and we've become an urban society, and the situation is totally different than when the bill of rights was written. But I suppose we'll just continue to send our thoughts and prayers because that's easier than having a mature, logical analysis and perhaps making some changes.

[Abby10]

Obviously I was not clear with my post.

While I read nothing about any Muslim groups ever...my post has NOTHING to do with Muslims or the KKK at all, as you turned it.

I simply was pointing out that our country is so involved in hate, no it matters not who you hate, but the key is our society has become...let's say..."NOT TOLERANT" of anyone who might not have the same feelings as others

Social platforms allow an outpouring of this hate, and if anyone is "on the edge", the constant "hatespeak" will effect them and perhaps move them to this kind of action.

My mind NEVER went to any specific group as yours did, and whether you were "defending" anyone or anything means little.

We are a country that just have stopped understanding or even trying. We just verbally show hate, and some WILL take it to more than just words.

That was not my point. Heck, more kids have been killed in school shootings than by terrorists, BY FAR. I am sure I am not verbally qualified to get my meaning across, but let's understand...our country is filled with hate...we need to recognize those who show signs of turning the hate into action.

Again, my entire purpose was to agree with those who say that reducing guns alone will not solve the problem. These are children....we, as adults should show some qualities that they should aspire to. These children have no knowledge of politics BUT they sure can identify hate.

Seriously? You need to re-read your first post. (post#15) You specifically brought up white supremacists. That is a group, right? Unless you are referring to something else, your statement in bold above makes no sense.

To Gracie's point, I also read where the gunman's social accounts showed a fascination with Isis/Islamic extremism, but to be honest I just glossed over it because I don't believe enough evidence is available yet to prove anything regarding any affiliation with any group.

[ColdNoMore]

Obviously I was not clear with my post.

While I read nothing about any Muslim groups ever...my post has NOTHING to do with Muslims or the KKK at all, as you turned it.

I simply was pointing out that our country is so involved in hate, no it matters not who you hate, but the key is our society has become...let's say..."NOT TOLERANT" of anyone who might not have the same feelings as others

Social platforms allow an outpouring of this hate, and if anyone is "on the edge", the constant "hatespeak" will effect them and perhaps move them to this kind of action.

My mind NEVER went to any specific group as yours did, and whether you were "defending" anyone or anything means little.

We are a country that just have stopped understanding or even trying. We just verbally show hate, and some WILL take it to more than just words.

That was not my point. Heck, more kids have been killed in school shootings than by terrorists, BY FAR. I am sure I am not verbally qualified to get my meaning across, but let's understand...our country is filled with hate...we need to recognize those who show signs of turning the hate into action.

Again, my entire purpose was to agree with those who say that reducing guns alone will not solve the problem. These are children....we, as adults should show some qualities that they should aspire to. These children have no knowledge of politics BUT they sure can identify hate.

Well stated. :thumbup:

The other important thing that some people have a problem grasping is that the KKK is only one....of many hate/white supremacist groups.

In fact, the SPLC has identified almost 1,000 different 'hate' groups.

And the focus of these groups hate, runs the gamut from religion to skin color to yes...even politics (regardless of which side of the aisle one stands). :ohdear:


Hate Map | Southern Poverty Law Center (https://www.splcenter.org/hate-map)


In this latest atrocity, one has to ask how someone who is three years away from legally purchasing alcohol...can legally buy a weapon that is primarily meant for only one purpose? :shrug:

[Bogie Shooter]

One big roadblock to an honest discussion....NRA $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[ColdNoMore]

Firing 45 rounds a second

Uh no

Please point me to the post claiming..."45 rounds a second."

Thank you. :ho:

[Abby10]

Well stated. :thumbup:

The other important thing that some people have a problem grasping is that the KKK is only one....of many hate/white supremacist groups.

In fact, the SPLC has identified almost 1,000 different 'hate' groups.

And the focus of these groups hate, runs the gamut from religion to skin color to yes...even politics (regardless of which side of the aisle one stands). :ohdear:


Hate Map | Southern Poverty Law Center (https://www.splcenter.org/hate-map)


In this latest atrocity, one has to ask how someone who is three years away from legally purchasing alcohol...can legally buy a weapon that is primarily meant for only one purpose? :shrug:

And as you know, the same thing has been said about sending 18 year old's to war.

It is confounding - too young for one thing but not the other?

[Bucco]

Seriously? You need to re-read your first post. (post#15) You specifically brought up white supremacists. That is a group, right? Unless you are referring to something else, your statement in bold above makes no sense.

To Gracie's point, I also read where the gunman's social accounts showed a fascination with Isis/Islamic extremism, but to be honest I just glossed over it because I don't believe enough evidence is available yet to prove anything regarding any affiliation with any group.

My point was and still is, that blurb about that group shows interest in hate, and to me represents what is happening to our society. It could have been ANY HATE GROUP involved, but our children being interested into hating is, TO ME, symptomatic of the societal differences.

I never indicated anything else but his interest in hate groups.

You guys want to make politics...I want our children to be safe, and frankly how that happens, as long as it does, will be fine with me.

I certainly can pull my references if that would have people worry about the kids and drop the politics.

[ColdNoMore]

One big roadblock to an honest discussion....NRA $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

That is absolutely at the heart of the problem. :thumbup:


An old colleague that I am still in contact with on Facebook and whom I never realized felt so strongly on the matter until about 6 months ago...told me that he believes people should be allowed to own ANY weapon.

He specifically said..."even bazookas/RPG's/Etc."

The saddest part, is that he is far from alone in that view. :ohdear:

[Bucco]

I heard this today, not sure where....

If there were 18 Cessna plane accidents killing people since the beginning of the year, there would be instant investigation and discussion.

Why cannot adults talk about protecting children in school ? No finger pointing, no politics.

Why is that difficult ?

[Abby10]

My point was and still is, that blurb about that group shows interest in hate, and to me represents what is happening to our society. It could have been ANY HATE GROUP involved, but our children being interested into hating is, TO ME, symptomatic of the societal differences.

I never indicated anything else but his interest in hate groups.

You guys want to make politics...I want our children to be safe, and frankly how that happens, as long as it does, will be fine with me.

I certainly can pull my references if that would have people worry about the kids and drop the politics.

I think we're all worried about the kids. It doesn't have to be and shouldn't be about politics in any way, shape, or form. But unfortunately, because it deals with laws, that's where a discussion like this will probably end up. And I don't think either side of the debate is all right or all wrong. There is much to be considered along that line when terrible situations like this happen.

In the meantime, I think we can all agree that this gunman committed an evil act and he should be dealt with in the most severe manner possible.

[billethkid]

Unfortunately the subject cannot appropriately be addressed in full without airing the political impacts, that most definitely define where we are and are not on the subject of appropriate gun ownership and use.

Hence, confined to NO POLITICS...no real progress can be made in any discussion.

[Abby10]

Unfortunately the subject cannot appropriately be addressed in full without airing the political impacts, that most definitely define where we are and are not on the subject of appropriate gun ownership and use.

Hence, confined to NO POLITICS...no real progress can be made in any discussion.

To a large extent you are correct, but I just got to thinking what could be discussed is the heroes in all of this. As the story unfolds, we are learning more about the selfless acts of some real heroes.

Also found it interesting on one radio show that I was listening to this morning, the host of the show stated that he would not say the gunman's name. He said it was in an effort to NOT give him any publicity or notoriety on his show and that he would only be spoken of as the gunman who murdered 17 people today.

[Bucco]

To a large extent you are correct, but I just got to thinking what could be discussed is the heroes in all of this. As the story unfolds, we are learning more about the selfless acts of some real heroes.

Also found it interesting on one radio show that I was listening to this morning, the host of the show stated that he would not say the gunman's name. He said it was in an effort to NOT give him any publicity or notoriety on his show and that he would only be spoken of as the gunman who murdered 17 people today.

Two of the cable news networks will also not mention the shooters name.

[Abby10]

Two of the cable news networks will also not mention the shooters name.

I haven't gotten around to any television watching yet today so wasn't aware. Good to know - thanks.

[fw102807]

To a large extent you are correct, but I just got to thinking what could be discussed is the heroes in all of this. As the story unfolds, we are learning more about the selfless acts of some real heroes.

Also found it interesting on one radio show that I was listening to this morning, the host of the show stated that he would not say the gunman's name. He said it was in an effort to NOT give him any publicity or notoriety on his show and that he would only be spoken of as the gunman who murdered 17 people today.

Good for him. They should ignore the gunman and speak of the heroes. They are like piranhas dissecting every detail and sticking their microphones in the faces of those traumatized.

[Bucco]

I haven't gotten around to any television watching yet today so wasn't aware. Good to know - thanks.

Actually, that needs correction.

Two of the cable news networks have shows where they will not mention his name.

The NEWS IS THE NEWS, and certainly his name, whether like it or not IS THE NEWS.

But, while we conveniently forget....Cable NEWS Networks are less news and more commentary.

Thus certain shows will not say his name, but it certainly is in NEWS broadcasts.

[fw102807]

What US can learn from countries close to eliminating gun deaths - BI (http://www.businessinsider.com/gun-deaths-nearly-eliminated-in-countries-what-us-can-learn-2017-11)

[graciegirl]

What US can learn from countries close to eliminating gun deaths - BI (http://www.businessinsider.com/gun-deaths-nearly-eliminated-in-countries-what-us-can-learn-2017-11)

Ah yes Australia. I believe that is where you are required to have a job before you immigrate...and U.K.? They have bombs and lots of Muslim extremists who run over folks with trucks and Norway? Same there, They have a very difficult time with people moving in to get their social programs. Taxes are very high there as a result. Japan. I don't know. They have lots of rules and people seem to respect them. I like that.

[graciegirl]

What US can learn from countries close to eliminating gun deaths - BI (http://www.businessinsider.com/gun-deaths-nearly-eliminated-in-countries-what-us-can-learn-2017-11)

In Ohio we know that you can't close the barn door AFTER the horses get out.

[GoodLife]

Please point me to the post claiming..."45 rounds a second."

Thank you. :ho:

Copied and pasted from post #12 by mscocco, who editied his post after seeing mine. barf

Last edited by mscocco; Today at 04:01 PM.

[fw102807]

In Ohio we know that you can't close the barn door AFTER the horses get out.

So we just do nothing and watch people die

[kcrazorbackfan]

Banning assault weapons or implementing gun control will not stop these senseless, horrific shootings.

Training and arming teachers and administrators along with manning and securing entry points to where a person has to swipe an ID to enter will stop these mentally ill cowards from committing these horrific acts.

[Steve9930]

One of the things that always comes to the surface in these incidents is "Someone Knew". This case is no different and the other is there is more misinformation then truth used in the arguments. There is a lot of gut reaction to the incident which never arrives to a real solution. In this case we need to stick with the School Shooting. This evening Bill O'Reilly had three good points: 1) The legal age to buy any firearm should be 21 not 18. (There are brain development reasons why.), 2) We should have multiple security officers and locked doors during class. 3) There should be a watch list for people that have exhibited behavior such as this young man. I could not disagree on any of these points.

Something else he brought up. The number of shootings in a given year since 1999 has decreased dramatically. From over 600 thousand in 1999, to 70 thousand. Don't remember which year for the 70 thousand number. The facts are shootings have been decreasing many fold since 1999. So there is progress.

The main stream Media would make you believe there were 18 school shootings this year. When you analyze that data presented its misrepresented. They would also try to make you believe that the NRA gets its power from donations to Politicians. Another misconception. The NRA gets its power from its ability to mobilize the voters in the field. They don't give as much money to Washington then others would make you believe.

Bill also had a physiologist that was there on scene. He went over the trouble this young man had in his life. One Thing he said which I agree is, "Social Media is the Gasoline that lights the fire of these people".

Bill's podcast tonight was so right on target I've written him to ask if he would make it available to everyone not just premium members. I have also attached a link to the data on school shootings. These are facts that cover time, shooting, casualties, weapons used all the way back to the 1800s.

If you think guns will go away they will not. There will be no ban from Washington. However States do have the power to regulate weapons for public safety. You could see more state regulations. They do have the power and this is where the solutions should come. What ever these regulation criminals will always be armed. Its why they are criminals.

Here is the data on school shootings:
School shootings in the United States - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shootings_in_the_United_States)

[ColdNoMore]

Copied and pasted from post #12 by mscocco, who editied his post after seeing mine.

Last edited by mscocco; Today at 04:01 PM.

If that's what happened (without putting the post in quotes like I've just done, it's hard to tell for those of us who didn't see it in real time), then it was obviously a simple typo...as I seriously doubt they believed it was "per second."

Simple typos happen, like you saying it was post #12...when it was actually post #17. :shrug:

[ColdNoMore]

One of the things that always comes to the surface in these incidents is "Someone Knew". This case is no different and the other is there is more misinformation then truth used in the arguments. There is a lot of gut reaction to the incident which never arrives to a real solution. In this case we need to stick with the School Shooting. This evening Bill O'Reilly had three good points: 1) The legal age to buy any firearm should be 21 not 18. (There are brain development reasons why.), 2) We should have multiple security officers and locked doors during class. 3) There should be a watch list for people that have exhibited behavior such as this young man. I could not disagree on any of these points.

Something else he brought up. The number of shootings in a given year since 1999 has decreased dramatically. From over 600 thousand in 1999, to 70 thousand. Don't remember which year for the 70 thousand number. The facts are shootings have been decreasing many fold since 1999. So there is progress.

The main stream Media would make you believe there were 18 school shootings this year. When you analyze that data presented its misrepresented. They would also try to make you believe that the NRA gets its power from donations to Politicians. Another misconception. The NRA gets its power from its ability to mobilize the voters in the field. They don't give as much money to Washington then others would make you believe.

Bill also had a physiologist that was there on scene. He went over the trouble this young man had in his life. One Thing he said which I agree is, "Social Media is the Gasoline that lights the fire of these people".

Bill's podcast tonight was so right on target I've written him to ask if he would make it available to everyone not just premium members. I have also attached a link to the data on school shootings. These are facts that cover time, shooting, casualties, weapons used all the way back to the 1800s.

If you think guns will go away they will not. There will be no ban from Washington. However States do have the power to regulate weapons for public safety. You could see more state regulations. They do have the power and this is where the solutions should come. What ever these regulation criminals will always be armed. Its why they are criminals.

Here is the data on school shootings:
School shootings in the United States - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shootings_in_the_United_States)

I think it's pretty clear that the statement of 17 (revised from 18) "shootings" is factually correct...given that every firearm discharge could hurt someone.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/14/florida-school-shooting-brings-yearly-tally-to-18-in-2018.html

The attack on Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida, is the 17th U.S. school shooting within the first 45 days of the year, according to Everytown for Gun Safety, a gun control advocacy organization.

Everytown has been tracking shootings in schools and universities since 2013. It reports any time a firearm is discharged within a school building or on campus, whether accidentally or intentionally and whether or not anyone has been harmed.

[ColdNoMore]

If anyone is interested, here's the list of the "shootings" that are tracked.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/15/heres-how-everytowns-disputed-report-of-18-school-shootings-breaks-down.html

[GoodLife]

I think it's pretty clear that the statement of 17 (revised from 18) "shootings" is factually correct...given that every firearm discharge could hurt someone.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/14/florida-school-shooting-brings-yearly-tally-to-18-in-2018.html

Washington Post: No, there haven’t been 18 school shootings so far this year. That number is flat out wrong

Just five of Everytown’s 18 school shootings listed for 2018 happened during school hours and resulted in any physical injury. Another three appeared to be intentional shootings but didn’t hurt anyone. Two more involved guns — one carried by a school police officer and the other by a licensed peace officer who ran a college club — that were unintentionally fired and, again, led to no injuries. At least seven of Everytown’s 18 shootings took place outside normal school hours.

[GoodLife]

Well stated. :thumbup:

The other important thing that some people have a problem grasping is that the KKK is only one....of many hate/white supremacist groups.

In fact, the SPLC has identified almost 1,000 different 'hate' groups.

And the focus of these groups hate, runs the gamut from religion to skin color to yes...even politics (regardless of which side of the aisle one stands). :ohdear:


Hate Map | Southern Poverty Law Center (https://www.splcenter.org/hate-map)


In this latest atrocity, one has to ask how someone who is three years away from legally purchasing alcohol...can legally buy a weapon that is primarily meant for only one purpose? :shrug:

The SPLC Hate Map distorts reality by counting each individual chapter of a hate group, rather than just the collective organization, a practice first implemented in 1997 and which sends the tally upwards. The National Socialist Movement, for example, is listed 49 times in the SPLC’s 2015 Hate Map, rather than just once since the count includes each one of the NSM’s individual chapters.

Hate crimes plummeted 24% between 1998 and 2013, according to the FBI. Yet the SPLC claims the number of hate groups in the U.S. shot up by 75% during this same period.


And the “haters” on SPLC’s list are almost entirely on the right. “I think there’s a common misunderstanding about the way you get on our Hate List,” said Heidi Beirich, Intelligence Project director at SPLC. “We post groups on the basis of ideology, not whether they’re violent or not.

In early 2014, the FBI deleted the SPLC as a resource listed on its Hate Crime web page. It acted after 15 pro-family groups, including Liberty Counsel, notified Attorney General Eric Holder and FBI Director James Comey of the SPLC’s role in facilitating an act of domestic terrorism and urged them to distance the FBI from the group.

In 2016, the U.S. Department of Justice, under President Obama, sharply rebuked and reprimanded attorneys representing the SPLC and its allies for employing the SPLC's "hate group" label to denigrate a conservative advocacy group. A letter from the Justice Department’s Office of General Counsel concluded that employing the label against groups with which it disagrees "overstepped the bounds of zealous advocacy and was unprofessional." It continued that such behavior is "uncivil" and "constitutes frivolous behavior and does not aid the administration of justice.

"meant for one purpose" You don't know much about guns. Most popular round the AR 15 is chambered for is .223. Less powerful than a 30-06 and not even legal for hunting deer in some states. AR does not mean Assault Rifle, its from Armalite, the original designer. Hunters like the AR 15 because it is lightweight, easy to disassemble and clean, and very reliable. Yes they come in a black, scary tactical look but you can get them in pink as well. The M16 is military version, fully automatic, chambered in 5.56 and definitely designed with one purpose, killing enemy soldiers fast.

PS There are more than 16 million of them out there, good luck with outlawing them.

[ColdNoMore]

The SPLC Hate Map distorts reality by counting each individual chapter of a hate group, rather than just the collective organization, a practice first implemented in 1997 and which sends the tally upwards. The National Socialist Movement, for example, is listed 49 times in the SPLC’s 2015 Hate Map, rather than just once since the count includes each one of the NSM’s individual chapters.

Hate crimes plummeted 24% between 1998 and 2013, according to the FBI. Yet the SPLC claims the number of hate groups in the U.S. shot up by 75% during this same period.


And the “haters” on SPLC’s list are almost entirely on the right. “I think there’s a common misunderstanding about the way you get on our Hate List,” said Heidi Beirich, Intelligence Project director at SPLC. “We post groups on the basis of ideology, not whether they’re violent or not.

In early 2014, the FBI deleted the SPLC as a resource listed on its Hate Crime web page. It acted after 15 pro-family groups, including Liberty Counsel, notified Attorney General Eric Holder and FBI Director James Comey of the SPLC’s role in facilitating an act of domestic terrorism and urged them to distance the FBI from the group.

In 2016, the U.S. Department of Justice, under President Obama, sharply rebuked and reprimanded attorneys representing the SPLC and its allies for employing the SPLC's "hate group" label to denigrate a conservative advocacy group. A letter from the Justice Department’s Office of General Counsel concluded that employing the label against groups with which it disagrees "overstepped the bounds of zealous advocacy and was unprofessional." It continued that such behavior is "uncivil" and "constitutes frivolous behavior and does not aid the administration of justice.

"meant for one purpose" You don't know much about guns. Most popular round the AR 15 is chambered for is .223. Less powerful than a 30-06 and not even legal for hunting deer in some states. AR does not mean Assault Rifle, its from Armalite, the original designer. Hunters like the AR 15 because it is lightweight, easy to disassemble and clean, and very reliable. Yes they come in a black, scary tactical look but you can get them in pink as well.

PS There are more than 16 million of them out there, good luck with outlawing them.LOL

Here's the actual story.

No, The FBI Hasn't Ditched The Southern Poverty Law Center (https://www.mediamatters.org/blog/2014/03/27/no-the-fbi-hasnt-ditched-the-southern-poverty-l/198645)

But the claim that the FBI is ending its relationship, or even its website's relationship, with SPLC in response to right-wing outrage is false. As Good As You's Jeremy Hooper noted, the FBI continues to list SPLC as a partner in the fight against hate crimes on its website.

"Upon review, the Civil Rights program only provides links to resources within the federal government," an FBI spokesman told The Daily Caller. "While we appreciate the tremendous support we receive from a variety of organizations, we have elected not to identify those groups on the civil rights page."


And as far as 'hate groups' in general...the key word is 'group.'

In other words, it is just those people who have decided to get together with the like-minded...in a formal group.

It obviously doesn't take into account the multiples (thousands? tens of thousands? millions?) of those individuals who 'share that same hate'...but simply don't join a group. :ho:

[justjim]

One big roadblock to an honest discussion....NRA $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

There are estimated 5 million NRA members and they only represent about 7% of the gun owners in the country. Most gun owners could care less about the NRA. They control gun owners and politicians by FEAR and brainwashing gun owners to believe their guns are going to be confiscated by the Government if ANY guns such as AR-15 are no longer sold. Give the NRA credit....they have done a remarkable job getting their viewpoints across to the public.

School children and adults continue to die because a few control the actions (or non-Action) of the silent majority of gun owners in America. “However beautiful the strategy, occasionally you should look at the results”. Winston Churchill

[GoodLife]

Here's the actual story.

No, The FBI Hasn't Ditched The Southern Poverty Law Center

"we have elected not to identify those groups on the civil rights page."

[ColdNoMore]

There are estimated 5 million NRA members and they only represent about 7% of the gun owners in the country. Most gun owners could care less about the NRA. They control gun owners and politicians by FEAR and brainwashing gun owners to believe their guns are going to be confiscated by the Government if ANY guns such as AR-15 are no longer sold. Give the NRA credit....they have done a remarkable job getting their viewpoints across to the public.

School children and adults continue to die because a few control the actions (or non-Action) of the silent majority of gun owners in America. “However beautiful the strategy, occasionally you should look at the results”. Winston Churchill

No question about it, spreading fear (even if it's false)... works.

Whether it is about confiscating guns, or about others who look/pray/act/etc.....differently than ourselves.

[8notes]

Unfortunately, too many politicians are beholden to the NRA to make a needed change.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180215/d0e0949f25c7c698cfc3e32cc98bb79c.jpg

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk

Thank you. Good post. The problem is not the gun itself, its the high capacity magazines that allow the shooter to fire off 30 rounds and more without stopping. If you claim to need that type of setup for hunting you must be a really bad shot. Outlaw the high volume magazines, and you would automatically cut down on the number of people killed, because the shooter would have to stop more frequently to reload. The AR 15 used in this shooting is legal in Florida without even having a license, with no waiting period. That is insane. I'm a second amendments supporter but I think the existing laws are unreasonable.

[Bucco]

No question about it, spreading fear (even if it's false)... works.

Whether it is about confiscating guns, or about others who look/pray/act/etc.....differently than ourselves.

Yep...seems the only fear that does not incite action is the fear of children having their young bodies torn apart by an AR 15.

Then, despite all pleas...politics clicks in.

As I said yesterday.....we have had 18 shootings in just 2 months....nothing. If we had 18 Cessna's crash, special session, and an passionate speech., and aviation laws passed.

[fw102807]

People are more concerned about their individual rights than the greater good. The second amendment gives them a right to own a gun and so they are going to have one. The first amendment gives them a right to say hateful things and so they are going to do it. Americans are a very entitled people, just as we are viewed by the rest of the world. The only way this will change is if enough people contact their politicians and vote out those who are resistant. There is no logical reason for people to need an AR-15 other than ego or mayhem.

[Madelaine Amee]

The parents of these 17 beautiful children could be what we need to get the Politicians to do something.

Organize and the movement will grow and then the Politicians will have to pass laws to ban these assault weapons.

[Bucco]

Ah yes Australia. I believe that is where you are required to have a job before you immigrate...and U.K.? They have bombs and lots of Muslim extremists who run over folks with trucks and Norway? Same there, They have a very difficult time with people moving in to get their social programs. Taxes are very high there as a result. Japan. I don't know. They have lots of rules and people seem to respect them. I like that.

Not sure what immigration has to do with American kids killing American kids with assault weapons ? Those kind of deaths far, far out weigh any immigrant related killings...BY FAR.

[Wiotte]

The parents of these 17 beautiful children could be what we need to get the Politicians to do something.



Organize and the movement will grow and then the Politicians will have to pass laws to ban these assault weapons.



Look what MADD did for the public perception of drunken driving.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Bucco]

PLEASE BE AWARE, if you have not been paying attention the last few months.

Distribution of false info from the same old source continues unabated

Taking advantage of this horrible event.

After Florida school shooting, Russian bots push gun hashtags - CNET (https://www.cnet.com/news/russian-twitter-bots-seize-on-gun-hashtags-after-parkland/)

[fw102807]

Look what MADD did for the public perception of drunken driving.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The parents at Sandy Hook have not had much success.

[Bogie Shooter]

Not sure what immigration has to do with American kids killing American kids with assault weapons ? Those kind of deaths far, far out weigh any immigrant related killings...BY FAR.

I agree.

[Bogie Shooter]

PLEASE BE AWARE, if you have not been paying attention the last few months.

Distribution of false info from the same old source continues unabated

Taking advantage of this horrible event.

After Florida school shooting, Russian bots push gun hashtags - CNET (https://www.cnet.com/news/russian-twitter-bots-seize-on-gun-hashtags-after-parkland/)

But, but there was no Russian meddling.............

[Abby10]

If anyone is interested, here's the list of the "shootings" that are tracked.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/15/heres-how-everytowns-disputed-report-of-18-school-shootings-breaks-down.html

This list reminds me of when one lumps together stats for child molestation, with rape incidences, with people who are sexually harassed in a work place and/or engage in sexual acts to better their career and then call it rape.

Just my opinion, but it is mixing apples with oranges and attempts to negate the real horror of one situation over another. For example, a school yard fight where 2 sides knowingly engage and someone gets shot is not the same as innocent children being gunned down for no reason. They both are horrible for sure, but not the same on many fronts. To lump them together is an insult to the innocent.

[fw102807]

PLEASE BE AWARE, if you have not been paying attention the last few months.

Distribution of false info from the same old source continues unabated

Taking advantage of this horrible event.

After Florida school shooting, Russian bots push gun hashtags - CNET (https://www.cnet.com/news/russian-twitter-bots-seize-on-gun-hashtags-after-parkland/)

If you want to see just how effective the media can be in manipulating world events just read this book. It is fiction but the premise is very real.

David Baldacci The Whole Truth (https://davidbaldacci.com/book/the-whole-truth/)

[Madelaine Amee]

Ah yes Australia. I believe that is where you are required to have a job before you immigrate...and U.K.? They have bombs and lots of Muslim extremists who run over folks with trucks and Norway? Same there, They have a very difficult time with people moving in to get their social programs. Taxes are very high there as a result. Japan. I don't know. They have lots of rules and people seem to respect them. I like that.

Much of your information is incorrect! Please give the research sites you used to come to your conclusions. If you cannot do so I will give you some sites which might be of use to you in your quest for knowledge.

[biker1]

"AR-15 style" semi-automatic rifles are the most popular sporting rifle in America with about 60% of rifle sales. Ego and mayhem are not the reasons why a large number of people own this rifle. Identifying those with mental health problems and keeping all firearms (the vast majority of which are also semi-automatic) out of their hands is the real issue. Focusing on a "scary looking" semi-automatic rifle when the vast majority of all firearms are semi-automatic is ignoring the real problem. If we could magically make all AR-15 style rifles disappear tomorrow, another semi-automatic rifle would appear in the headlines. Also, as tragic and heart breaking as mass killings are, particularly when children are involved, they account for a small percentage of firearm related deaths. Approximately 60% of all gun deaths are suicide (about 33,000 gun deaths and about 22,000 are suicides). Again, we have a mental health issue. Another problem is mass killings capture all the headlines while one at a time killings are essentially ignored. What just happened in FL in one day happens in Chicago every week. The vast majority of firearm killings are with handguns. Rifles account for a very small percentage. The real issues are handguns and mental health. We should, as a nation, focus on that and provide better security in schools since they are vulnerable.

People are more concerned about their individual rights than the greater good. The second amendment gives them a right to own a gun and so they are going to have one. The first amendment gives them a right to say hateful things and so they are going to do it. Americans are a very entitled people, just as we are viewed by the rest of the world. The only way this will change is if enough people contact their politicians and vote out those who are resistant. There is no logical reason for people to need an AR-15 other than ego or mayhem.

[fw102807]

"AR-15 style" semi-automatic rifles are the most popular sporting rifle in America with about 60% of rifle sales. Ego and mayhem are not the reasons why a large number of people own this rifle. Identifying those with mental health problems and keeping all firearms (the vast majority of which are also semi-automatic) out of their hands is the real issue. Focusing on a "scary looking" semi-automatic rifle when the vast majority of all firearms are semi-automatic is ignoring the real problem. If we could magically make all AR-15 style rifles disappear tomorrow, another semi-automatic rifle would appear in the headlines. Also, as tragic and heart breaking as mass killings are, particularly when children are involved, they account for a small percentage of firearm related deaths. Approximately 60% of all gun deaths are suicide (about 33,000 gun deaths and about 22,000 are suicides). Again, we have a mental health issue. Another problem is mass killings capture all the headlines while one at a time killings are essentially ignored. What just happened in FL in one day happens in Chicago every week. The vast majority of firearm killings are with handguns. Rifles account for a very small percentage. The real issues are handguns and mental health. We should, as a nation, focus on that and provide better security in schools since they are vulnerable.

So we just go round and round and no one agrees on anything.

[biker1]

I mostly stated facts (with a few opinions tossed in). The facts don't have to be agreed on: they stand by themselves as the truth. My opinions are another issue. Unfortunately nothing will change.

So we just go round and round and no one agrees on anything.

[graciegirl]

So we just go round and round and no one agrees on anything.

I think everyone wishes that no one would use guns to harm others.

I think this issue boils down to realistic vs. unrealistic.

If we somehow disarmed every person in this country, (by the way we aren't gun owners) then within a few hours, the unscrupulous would be rearmed. We have laws against drugs and people are dying from Heroin overdoses on an epidemic level.

It isn't that we don't share the same goals, no one we know ever wants innocent people harmed, but what is realistic? I can't imagine how a law could be phrased or implemented; would they go in and search peoples homes?

I think we need to realize that the second amendment is gonna stay. I know that many older and sick people, especially those that have moved here from large metropolitan areas feel safer having a fire arm. Most law abiding people who own fire arms will never cause harm to another.

And the evil, bad people will continue to harm, kill, hurt, rob and shoot innocent people.

When I was small, mentally ill people were put into an asylum, locked up. That in itself is scary. Most of us know someone who has mental health issues and just how to identify someone who could cause potential harm to others is very difficult to define and difficult to act upon.

I think that the whole issue is complicated and the people who argue for stricter gun laws think it is doable. I don't.

Again. Growing up where we lived the only people who had guns were those who hunted. It has been an eye opener moving here.

People who grow older and can't run or fight like they used to fear home invasions. I understand that, and that is the reason they moved here to a low crime area.

Things could change and the second amendment makes it so that if a person feels they should own a gun, can.

I understand your feelings and your view. I am not a gun owner. It is just not realistic to try to disarm people now. Half the country owns guns

[billethkid]

In my opinion, not enough has been said about the reluctance of seeing something and saying something.

The reluctance is directly proportional to our much more permissive culture as well as the fear of retribution.

Hence nothing gets said/done. However, the post event commentary certainly corroborates that much was seen by many.

This situation, like the mental health issue is impeded by the current need for political identity and the obsession with individuals first and the greater good secondary.

[Abby10]

I think everyone wishes that no one would use guns to harm others.

I think this issue boils down to realistic vs. unrealistic.

If we somehow disarmed every person in this country, (by the way we aren't gun owners) then within a few hours, the unscrupulous would be rearmed. We have laws against drugs and people are dying from Heroin overdoses on an epidemic level.

It isn't that we don't share the same goals, no one we know ever wants innocent people harmed, but what is realistic? I can't imagine how a law could be phrased or implemented; would they go in and search peoples homes?

I think we need to realize that the second amendment is gonna stay. I know that many older and sick people, especially those that have moved here from large metropolitan areas feel safer having a fire arm. Most law abiding people who own fire arms will never cause harm to another.

And the evil, bad people will continue to harm, kill, hurt, rob and shoot innocent people.

When I was small, mentally ill people were put into an asylum, locked up. That in itself is scary. Most of us know someone who has mental health issues and just how to identify someone who could cause potential harm to others is very difficult to define and difficult to act upon.

I think that the whole issue is complicated and the people who argue for stricter gun laws think it is doable. I don't.

Again. Growing up where we lived the only people who had guns were those who hunted. It has been an eye opener moving here.

People who grow older and can't run or fight like they used to fear home invasions. I understand that, and that is the reason they moved here to a low crime area.

Things could change and the second amendment makes it so that if a person feels they should own a gun, can.

I understand your feelings and your view. I am not a gun owner. It is just not realistic to try to disarm people now. Half the country owns guns

Le me start with this - I don't think anyone is against the enforcement of laws that are currently on the books regarding ownership and carrying of guns. This should be step 1 to be sure they are being enforced. But your post brings up at least 4 issues in need of serious discussion before any laws are changed.

The whole concept of "let's just get rid of this or that" is just too simple and will not solve the real problems. In fact, it reminds me of those who go to the doctor and want the simple fix. Give me a medicine to take care of my problem, which often is just the easy way out. It's much harder to make lifestyle changes that may actually solve the problem, not just mask it. That's how I see this gun problem. Some just want what I see as a quick fix, others may want to do nothing, but many of us would rather address the real issues and see the hard work done in order to obtain long lasting and further reaching changes in our society.

[Psa1000]

I agree with you. Get the politics out of this issue and prevent this from happening again. No one needs a AR-15 - ban the sale of these weapons. Getting them off of the street, of course, is another obstacle. The Quick Fix, if there is one, would work for me. I have grandchildren that are at risk by just going to school.

[Bucco]

Le me start with this - I don't think anyone is against the enforcement of laws that are currently on the books regarding ownership and carrying of guns. This should be step 1 to be sure they are being enforced. But your post brings up at least 4 issues in need of serious discussion before any laws are changed.

The whole concept of "let's just get rid of this or that" is just too simple and will not solve the real problems. In fact, it reminds me of those who go to the doctor and want the simple fix. Give me a medicine to take care of my problem, which often is just the easy way out. It's much harder to make lifestyle changes that may actually solve the problem, not just mask it. That's how I see this gun problem. Some just want what I see as a quick fix, others may want to do nothing, but many of us would rather address the real issues and see the hard work done in order to obtain long lasting and further reaching changes in our society.

1. You are correct that simply getting rid of things with no discussion is not good. However, as I keep using as an example...if 18 Cessna planes went down since Jan 1, there would be hearings and public discussion about the Cessna. Yet, all we do on this area of discussions is make speeches to satisfy whatever constituency we want to speak to.....and then wait for the next time our children are killed.

2. There are common sense fixes that should be discussed and integrated. For example, while this had nothing to do with this shooting incident, we had an exec order to not allow recepiants of Social Security benefits who have been already judged not to have the mental capacity to handle their own affairs to get gun permits. That was somehow considered wrong and taken away.

We put people on the terrorists watch lists, YET adamantly defend them to have guns even though we judge them a terrorist threat.

We have open public hearings on many things but this does not seem to rise to the proper importance level and that makes no sense.

[fw102807]

I am not against people owning weapons but no one stands a chance against an AR-15 with a handgun and the destruction that they cause is always massive. There needs to be more control over these automatic weapons. I also agree that MUCH more needs to be done for the mentally ill and drug addicted.

[biker1]

An "AR-15 style" rifle is not an automatic weapon. Automatic weapons, with a few exceptions such as for collectors with a Federal permit, are illegal in the US. This is a common misconception by those with little knowledge of firearms and sometimes propagated by the media. An AR-15, as with the majority of firearms including handguns and rifles as well as many shotguns, is semi-automatic.


I am not against people owning weapons but no one stands a chance against an AR-15 with a handgun and the destruction that they cause is always massive. There needs to be more control over these automatic weapons. I also agree that MUCH more needs to be done for the mentally ill and drug addicted.

[biker1]

Are you proposing a ban on all semi-automatic firearms? Any meaningful discussion must start with an understanding of the facts.

I agree with you. Get the politics out of this issue and prevent this from happening again. No one needs a AR-15 - ban the sale of these weapons. Getting them off of the street, of course, is another obstacle. The Quick Fix, if there is one, would work for me. I have grandchildren that are at risk by just going to school.

[JimD215]

Can someone please define what an assualt weapon is?

[8notes]

We are a laughing stock to the rest of the world. The Sydney Herald had this to say:
"It is incomprehensible to us, as Australians, that a country so proud and great can allow itself to be savaged again and again by its own citizens. We cannot understand how the long years of senseless murder, the Sandy Hooks and Orlandos and Columbines, have not proved to Americans that the gun is not a precious symbol of freedom, but a deadly cancer on their society.
We point over and over to our own success with gun control in the wake of the Port Arthur massacre, that Australia has not seen a mass shooting since and that we are still a free and open society. We have not bought our security at the price of liberty; we have instead consented to a social contract that states lives are precious, and not to be casually ended by lone madmen. But it is a message that means nothing to those whose ideology is impervious to evidence."
• Demand background checks
• Demand a ban on assault weapons
• Demand a ban on all modifications to convert weapons to semi or fully automatic
• Demand accountability by the Senators and Representatives on the NRA payroll."

[JimD215]

An AR15 is just a scary looking rifle. Works the same as any other rifle. You pull the trigger every time you want to shoot it. The only difference is the capacity of rounds you put into a magazine. All rifles are assault weapons when they are used against someone. Makes no difference what they look like. A limit on magazine capacity may help but without a resistance people will be able to shoot lots of people no matter what weapon they use.

[Kenswing]

Can someone please define what an assualt weapon is?
A scary term made up by the media and politicians.

Rifles are broken down by function. There are muzzle loaders, there are bolt action rifles, there are semi-automatic rifles and there are automatic rifles.

The media and politicians would have you believe that any rifle that is black, has a pistol grip and can accept a magazine is an "Assault Weapon"..

[GoodLife]

can someone please define what an assualt weapon is?

Here is the Hello Kitty version

74043

[Psa1000]

No, I am not knowledgeable on guns - I am a Mom and my knowledge is from the heart. I would like those that are -- to do something rational based on our needs right now.

[biker1]

There are background checks. What we need is an ironclad national database that includes data on mental illness, HiPPA laws be damned.

There is no such thing as an "assault weapon" - it is a made up media term. The sooner people stop using that term the sooner rational discussions can proceed.

The majority of firearms are manufactured as semi-automatic and are legal. Automatic weapons, and anything converted to an automatic weapon, is already illegal.


• Demand background checks
• Demand a ban on assault weapons
• Demand a ban on all modifications to convert weapons to semi or fully automatic
• Demand accountability by the Senators and Representatives on the NRA payroll."

[Abby10]

1. You are correct that simply getting rid of things with no discussion is not good. However, as I keep using as an example...if 18 Cessna planes went down since Jan 1, there would be hearings and public discussion about the Cessna. Yet, all we do on this area of discussions is make speeches to satisfy whatever constituency we want to speak to.....and then wait for the next time our children are killed.

2. There are common sense fixes that should be discussed and integrated. For example, while this had nothing to do with this shooting incident, we had an exec order to not allow recepiants of Social Security benefits who have been already judged not to have the mental capacity to handle their own affairs to get gun permits. That was somehow considered wrong and taken away.

We put people on the terrorists watch lists, YET adamantly defend them to have guns even though we judge them a terrorist threat.

We have open public hearings on many things but this does not seem to rise to the proper importance level and that makes no sense.

I concur with what you say here, again, as long as the law is followed and not abused painting any specific group with a broad brush. It's important that the right to gun ownership only be taken away on an individual basis after careful scrutiny of facts.

The importance of a discussion on these issues is a no brainer - can't imagine why someone would want to shut that process down and yet they will. :ohdear:

[fw102807]

An "AR-15 style" rifle is not an automatic weapon. Automatic weapons, with a few exceptions such as for collectors with a Federal permit, are illegal in the US. This is a common misconception by those with little knowledge of firearms and sometimes propagated by the media. An AR-15, as with the majority of firearms including handguns and rifles as well as many shotguns, is semi-automatic.

You are correct, I did not know this but still believe that there needs to be tighter control over who can own one as it is till a dangerous weapon.

[Bogie Shooter]

Do you have the feeling that you have read all these posts before? You are right!
https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/villages-florida-non-villages-discussion-93/tragedy-connecticut-65869/?highlight=sandy+hook+shootings

[JimD215]

Is this your idea of an assault weapon? Looks like a semi-automatic weapon to me.

[Abby10]

There are background checks. What we need is an ironclad national database that includes data on mental illness, HiPPA laws be damned.

There is no such thing as an "assault weapon" - it is a made up media term. The sooner people stop using that term the sooner rational discussions can proceed.

The majority of firearms are manufactured as semi-automatic and are legal. Automatic weapons, and anything converted to an automatic weapon, is already illegal.

This post deserves a repeat especially since I noticed you edited and added some additional statements worth being seen.

Thanks for the common sense post.

[fw102807]

Do you have the feeling that you have read all these posts before? You are right!
https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/villages-florida-non-villages-discussion-93/tragedy-connecticut-65869/?highlight=sandy+hook+shootings

Yup, and we'll go through it all again the next time it happens

[Psa1000]

I agree with what you are saying. I guess what I am proposing would be a better handle on the mental health aspect...a better database. Of course there are always going to be illegal transactions going on behind the scenes. It seems to be a vicious circle that no matter what good ideas are presented - there are never any sure ways to prevent these events from happening. In this recent school shooting, this child grew up without any positive direction. Perhaps the answer lies within this aspect. They used to say that it took a village to bring up a child - now it seems as though the village has turned their heads and have looked the other way. It is rare to really know your neighbor these days in Small Town USA. The answers may be right in front of our eyes.

[8notes]

An AR15 is just a scary looking rifle. Works the same as any other rifle. You pull the trigger every time you want to shoot it. The only difference is the capacity of rounds you put into a magazine. All rifles are assault weapons when they are used against someone. Makes no difference what they look like. A limit on magazine capacity may help but without a resistance people will be able to shoot lots of people no matter what weapon they use.

The issue is twofold - the size of the magazine is really important. NY and California have laws limiting magazine sizes to 10 rounds, but the Las Vegas shooter had a magazine that held 50-100 rounds. Why does anyone even legally need 10 rounds? And yes, shooters may still shoot people but if the magazine is smaller, they have to reload more frequently so not as many people die. The other issue is automatic vs. semi-automatic. The use of bump stocks to make a weapon virtually automatic is not illegal, and it is easy to add one on to a weapon. These are just 2 things that need to be looked at. You can't just keep on allowing people to do anything they want. We have to balance the gun owners' rights with public safety.

[graciegirl]

The issue is twofold - the size of the magazine is really important. NY and California have laws limiting magazine sizes to 10 rounds, but the Las Vegas shooter had a magazine that held 50-100 rounds. Why does anyone even legally need 10 rounds? And yes, shooters may still shoot people but if the magazine is smaller, they have to reload more frequently so not as many people die. The other issue is automatic vs. semi-automatic. The use of bump stocks to make a weapon virtually automatic is not illegal, and it is easy to add one on to a weapon. These are just 2 things that need to be looked at. You can't just keep on allowing people to do anything they want. We have to balance the gun owners' rights with public safety.

Evil people will find a way to kill. Bombs come to mind. As I have said before, when we are frightened we want to blame someone. DO something. This is a very, very complex issue. Those who are taught that killing is wrong, would only kill to protect their own life or to protect others. Or are gravely mentally ill.

[fw102807]

Evil people will find a way to kill. Bombs come to mind. As I have said before, when we are frightened we want to blame someone. DO something. This is a very, very complex issue. Those who are taught that killing is wrong, would only kill to protect their own life or to protect others. Or are gravely mentally ill.

Yes we should definitely do nothing and just wait for the next mass murder to happen so we can have this discussion again.

[graciegirl]

Yes we should definitely do nothing and just wait for the next mass murder to happen so we can have this discussion again.

I remember a couple of weeks ago when we two discussed the time it takes to release a person from the hospital. That too is complex, and if it were easily solved it would be solved, because the issue has been going on for decades. You insisted there is an answer and people can get released from the hospital faster than we have had happen. What we want to happen sometimes can be solved easily and sometimes the facts are such that it cannot be solved, easily or with great input.

It boils down to whether people are realistic or unrealistic. It is a democracy. The majority rules. Right or wrong. You see an answer. I don't see an answer. There are laws that make use of street drugs illegal. People still get them and use them. If we did that with guns, now that so many people have them, people would still get them and use them. It is sad, but very, complex.

[fw102807]

I remember a couple of weeks ago when we two discussed the time it takes to release a person from the hospital. That too is complex, and if it were easily solved it would be solved, because the issue has been going on for decades. You insisted there is an answer and people can get released from the hospital faster than we have had happen. What we want to happen sometimes can be solved easily and sometimes the facts are such that it cannot be solved, easily or with great input.

It boils down to whether people are realistic or unrealistic. It is a democracy. The majority rules. Right or wrong. You see an answer. I don't see an answer. There are laws that make use of street drugs illegal. People still get them and use them. If we did that with guns, now that so many people have them, people would still get them and use them. It is sad, but very, complex.

What I said in both cases is that people need to not give up trying find a way to make it better and not just throw up their hands and say oh well that's just how it is. No progress ever gets made with that attitude. We should always be trying to make things better and willing to listen to ideas.

[Polar Bear]

All we need to do is study the periods in history when there were zero instances of random acts of senseless violence. Then we can just mimick what they did to...oh wait...wait...there never has been such a period!

Of course we need to do what we can. But those who think it can be totally stopped by doing one thing or another are dreaming.

[fw102807]

All we need to do is study the periods in history when there were zero instances of random acts of senseless violence. Then we can just mimick what they did to...oh wait...errrr...there NEVER has been such a period!

Of course we need to do what we can. But those who think it can be totally stopped by doing one thing or another are dreaming.

Totally agree

[JimD215]

The issue is twofold - the size of the magazine is really important. NY and California have laws limiting magazine sizes to 10 rounds, but the Las Vegas shooter had a magazine that held 50-100 rounds. Why does anyone even legally need 10 rounds? And yes, shooters may still shoot people but if the magazine is smaller, they have to reload more frequently so not as many people die. The other issue is automatic vs. semi-automatic. The use of bump stocks to make a weapon virtually automatic is not illegal, and it is easy to add one on to a weapon. These are just 2 things that need to be looked at. You can't just keep on allowing people to do anything they want. We have to balance the gun owners' rights with public safety.

Only takes a second to drop one mag out and put in another. May save a life but not many. 10 rounds is fine with me but it really doesn’t matter to someone who is hell bent on taking people out.

[Kenswing]

The issue is twofold - the size of the magazine is really important. NY and California have laws limiting magazine sizes to 10 rounds, but the Las Vegas shooter had a magazine that held 50-100 rounds. Why does anyone even legally need 10 rounds? And yes, shooters may still shoot people but if the magazine is smaller, they have to reload more frequently so not as many people die. The other issue is automatic vs. semi-automatic. The use of bump stocks to make a weapon virtually automatic is not illegal, and it is easy to add one on to a weapon. These are just 2 things that need to be looked at. You can't just keep on allowing people to do anything they want. We have to balance the gun owners' rights with public safety.In the case of an untrained person magazine size and reloading might make a difference. Anyone that has trained at all can reload rather quickly. I can change a magazine in a pistol or rifle in under a second. Granted I have had extensive training. How many people do you imagine are standing around just waiting for the shooter to reload so they can attack him? Chaos rules in a shooting situation. People by instinct are running away from not toward the shooter.

[graciegirl]

What I said in both cases is that people need to not give up trying find a way to make it better and not just throw up their hands and say oh well that's just how it is. No progress ever gets made with that attitude. We should always be trying to make things better and willing to listen to ideas.

I agree. And since the gun issue does not seem likely to be solved at once, then I think we need turn attention to the school's being made safer with new ideas not used before. There are businesses that offer seminars to corporations to make their facilities safer from attacks like these. They teach people to break windows and run. They teach people to throw things and they teach people how to save their lives. We need to be open to that as well.

Saying that something is complex and does not have an easy answer does not mean that nothing can be done. We need to realistically assess what we can do and be open to new ideas. Teachers and staff who are willing to be armed is another thought not previously considered.

[fw102807]

I agree. And since the gun issue does not seem likely to be solved at once, then I think we need turn attention to the school's being made safer with new ideas not used before. There are businesses that offer seminars to corporations to make their facilities safer from attacks like these. They teach people to break windows and run. They teach people to throw things and they teach people how to save their lives. We need to be open to that as well.

Saying that something is complex and does not have an easy answer does not mean that nothing can be done. We need to realistically assess what we can do and be open to new ideas. Teachers and staff who are willing to be armed is another thought not previously considered.

Yes exactly we cannot just stand by and do nothing. We need to discuss options and then lobby our politicians to try them. Although putting guns in schools except for in the hands of guards does not seem like a good idea. If the kids want them they will get them.

[AJ32162]

I agree. And since the gun issue does not seem likely to be solved at once, then I think we need turn attention to the school's being made safer with new ideas not used before. There are businesses that offer seminars to corporations to make their facilities safer from attacks like these. They teach people to break windows and run. They teach people to throw things and they teach people how to save their lives. We need to be open to that as well.

Saying that something is complex and does not have an easy answer does not mean that nothing can be done. We need to realistically assess what we can do and be open to new ideas. Teachers and staff who are willing to be armed is another thought not previously considered.

This seems to be a logical approach to the problem:

Israel Figured Out How to Prevent School Shootings 40 Years Ago-It's Time the US Followed Suit - Lawrence Meyers (https://townhall.com/columnists/lawrencemeyers/2018/02/15/president-trump-have-education-department-mandate-active-shooter-protocols-n2449726)

[Boomer]

I have been around TOTV far too long, but I keep on tuning in. I have been watching this thread and I must say that I am a bit impressed as to how the discussion is going because, for the most part, posters are sharing their own thinking in their own words. This thread is not all full of links. YAY!

Unless I missed something, I have seen only one link to one of those “Choose Your News” sites (or networks) that permeate our culture with the sole purpose of keeping viewers angry and paranoid and hopelessly divided.

We see leaders who show nothing but contempt for the American people. They must laugh in private at how easy it has been to manipulate for the sake of gaining power. Keep ‘em paranoid and angry — way too easy. Good old divide and conquer tactics — as anyone ever involved in contract negotiations should be able to recognize immediately.

There are now families and friendships and probably even marriages that are being damaged — some beyond repair — because of so many who are willing to abdicate their own thinking to the big, manipulative screen. Actual discussion of different ideas is now often impossible.

But I must say that it is interesting to see that most posters here are sharing their own thinking rather than simply signing up to be a part of the Regurgitation Nation. I might not agree with some, but I certainly can respect original thinking so, at least, it is a start.

I hope the thread continues in this way, but my guess is someone will jump the track and get the thread closed.

PS:

Dear Bucco,

Will you be my new best friend.

Sincerely,
Boomer

[Abby10]

This seems to be a logical approach to the problem:

Israel Figured Out How to Prevent School Shootings 40 Years Ago-It's Time the US Followed Suit - Lawrence Meyers (https://townhall.com/columnists/lawrencemeyers/2018/02/15/president-trump-have-education-department-mandate-active-shooter-protocols-n2449726)

This is a good article. Hope others read it as well. The writer states, upfront and very clearly, the problem that has hung over our country regarding this issue before going on to propose a solution. My only argument would be that it can't stop there. Although it would provide much needed security immediately, we still need to continue to work on the societal issues which cause people to carry out such horrific acts. It is a complex matter indeed, but the immediate danger could be curtailed with the placement of proper security at schools.

[GoodLife]

FBI got tip on Florida shooter Nikolas Cruz in January, but didn’t ‘follow protocols’

PARKLAND, Fla. — Less than six weeks before Nikolas Cruz committed one of the deadliest school shootings in American history, someone who knew him called an FBI tip line to complain about him, the agency revealed on Friday.
But no one followed up.

FBI got tip on Florida shooter Nikolas Cruz in January, but didn'''t '''follow protocols''' - NBC News (https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/fbi-got-tip-parkland-shooter-nikolas-cruz-january-didn-t-n848681)

[JayChica]

i agree on all counts. something must be done.

[graciegirl]

This is a good article. Hope others read it as well. The writer states, upfront and very clearly, the problem that has hung over our country regarding this issue before going on to propose a solution. My only argument would be that it can't stop there. Although it would provide much needed security immediately, we still need to continue to work on the societal issues which cause people to carry out such horrific acts. It is a complex matter indeed, but the immediate danger could be curtailed with the placement of proper security at schools.

I agree. You are a realistic thinker IMHO.

[Steve9930]

I think it's pretty clear that the statement of 17 (revised from 18) "shootings" is factually correct...given that every firearm discharge could hurt someone.

Florida school shooting brings yearly tally to 17 in 2018 (https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/14/florida-school-shooting-brings-yearly-tally-to-18-in-2018.html)

Check the real data. Its not correct.

[Bucco]

FBI got tip on Florida shooter Nikolas Cruz in January, but didn’t ‘follow protocols’

PARKLAND, Fla. — Less than six weeks before Nikolas Cruz committed one of the deadliest school shootings in American history, someone who knew him called an FBI tip line to complain about him, the agency revealed on Friday.
But no one followed up.

FBI got tip on Florida shooter Nikolas Cruz in January, but didn'''t '''follow protocols''' - NBC News (https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/fbi-got-tip-parkland-shooter-nikolas-cruz-january-didn-t-n848681)

Bad stuff and should be part of the discussion. A person taking tips did not forward to the Miami bureau and that is on them.

It is not good, but I submit it is a fact that they have prevented many many more than this by great and quick response.

That does not mitigate the mistake in any way. Would it have stopped the shooting...who knows but maybe is close enough. They owned up within 24 hours and began their own investigation.

[GoodLife]

Bad stuff and should be part of the discussion. A person taking tips did not forward to the Miami bureau and that is on them.

It is not good, but I submit it is a fact that they have prevented many many more than this by great and quick response.

That does not mitigate the mistake in any way. Would it have stopped the shooting...who knows but maybe is close enough. They owned up within 24 hours and began their own investigation.

This was the 2nd tip the FBI got, the first one I can let slide, they did not have verifiable ID on the guy, this one was a direct tip, who the guy was, where he was located. See something say something only works if the tip is seriously investigated.

[Steve9930]

I agree with you. Get the politics out of this issue and prevent this from happening again. No one needs a AR-15 - ban the sale of these weapons. Getting them off of the street, of course, is another obstacle. The Quick Fix, if there is one, would work for me. I have grandchildren that are at risk by just going to school.

You can make your own Ar-15. The technology has pasted that hurtle. Its pretty easy. You can also 3d Print high capacity magazines. Both are easily done.

[Steve9930]

The issue is twofold - the size of the magazine is really important. NY and California have laws limiting magazine sizes to 10 rounds, but the Las Vegas shooter had a magazine that held 50-100 rounds. Why does anyone even legally need 10 rounds? And yes, shooters may still shoot people but if the magazine is smaller, they have to reload more frequently so not as many people die. The other issue is automatic vs. semi-automatic. The use of bump stocks to make a weapon virtually automatic is not illegal, and it is easy to add one on to a weapon. These are just 2 things that need to be looked at. You can't just keep on allowing people to do anything they want. We have to balance the gun owners' rights with public safety.

High capacity magazines are easily made with a 3D Printer,

[Bucco]

This was the 2nd tip the FBI got, the first one I can let slide, they did not have verifiable ID on the guy, this one was a direct tip, who the guy was, where he was located. See something say something only works if the tip is seriously investigated.

You can go off on the FBI all you want. The terrorists and mass shootings they have PREVENTED over many years are what I remember and while it certainly may have stopped it, and it makes me unhappy, the FBI is almost the very best friend this country has.

Read the indictments today for example......We will find out all the details because they do not hide anything and "fessed" up immediately that it appears the tip was not forwarded to Miami.

[Steve9930]

Twitter and Facebook should be shutdown. Its full of erroneous information. Its also not helping the kids. These social websites are part of the problem. We also need to harden the Security of our schools. Not just because of the child on child violence, but because there are other threats. The law needs to be changed so as you need to be 21 to buy any firearm. We need to add more resources to support the teachers, more counselors, smaller class sizes, more discipline, more mental guidance. Parents need to be parents again. Guide your children. Your their parent not their friend. Just today another could have been incident. 18 year old was going to use explosives to attack his school. The Grandmother got wind of this and turned him into the FBI and he was arrested. There is a problem here and its not guns. We need to keep these children away from these violent games they play. You see enough of this and you get desensitized. Its time to fix the Gun Data Base and background check system. Its time to get serious about this problem.

[cologal]

These shootings happen in gun-free zones. Teachers and school staff should be allowed to conceal carry in schools after they obtain the proper training. When seconds count, the police are minutes away. My thoughts and prayers are for all those affected by this horrific event in Broward County.

On the news tonight it was confirmed an armed guard was present at the school.

The high school was NOT a gun free zone!

[graciegirl]

On the news tonight it was confirmed an armed guard was present at the school.

The high school was NOT a gun free zone!

Should have been, Read this;

Florida school shooting: How was killer able to get around school security? - Sun Sentinel (http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/broward/parkland/florida-school-shooting/fl-florida-school-shooting-20180215-story.html)

[Polar Bear]

Twitter and Facebook should be shutdown. Its full of erroneous information...
With all due respect, it would be more useful to consider options that actually have a chance of happening.

[ColdNoMore]

Twitter and Facebook should be shutdown. Its full of erroneous information....

LOL

Applying that criteria across the board and equitably, there would be no such thing as television/newspaper/internet news...or even TOTV for that matter. :oops:

[Abby10]

With all due respect, it would be more useful to consider options that actually have a chance of happening.

LOL

Applying that criteria across the board and equitably, there would be no such thing as television/newspaper/internet news...or even TOTV for that matter. :oops:

In all fairness, that wasn't the only thing the poster suggested and some of his ideas were pretty good.

I have to agree with him though in that I think social networking sites have done more harm than good where our children are concerned and in more ways than one.

[Bucco]

LOL

Applying that criteria across the board and equitably, there would be no such thing as television/newspaper/internet news...or even TOTV for that matter. :oops:

You're right.

It is what it is.

It is not the sites. It is people who read it and believe what they read. It's Facebook, get your news from real news.

The sites do not make you believe the trite you read there. Putin is laughing his backside off realizing how easily Americans are duped.

I have always said, and certainly not just me, but on the internet, you keep looking you will find a site to validate what you WANT it to say.

If you are an American and you believed supposed "news" from other than recognized news sites, you re the butt of jokes in the Kremlin.

Don't take them down, but how about educating ourselves.

Why people go to bizarre extremist sites and then accept it because they want to, and then stupidly...and sorry, but it is stupid, repeat it should be, and must be the theme of many writings

I go back to my original thought on this thread. Our society is so tuned into "getting others", "counter punching" etc, and will go where that "hate" takes them to "prove" their point. Truth does not enter the picture.

That thirst to find heir particular truth leads them to believe things from odd websites, from email mailings most always crammed with lies.

Now that affects voters as we know, but some get incredibly involved with this hateful feeling and cannot handle it. Then they lose all touch with truth and reality.

That detachment from real facts is spreading, and I really believe is at the root of much of our problems. You can laugh at me, but the political "discussions" are more loud and violence from politics is more prevelant.

Kids hear this stuff...they copy us...I am not saying this kid falls into this category because I don't know. I have apologized for linking in my first post, but haven't changed my mind about an anger that is growing in this country and the feeling that it is ok because if you think you are right, then you are.

Mental problems are a bigger issue than ever, and we need to recognize that if we will allow assault weapons to be sold. But, we wont

[graciegirl]

You're right.

It is what it is.

It is not the sites. It is people who read it and believe what they read. It's Facebook, get your news from real news.

The sites do not make you believe the trite you read there. Putin is laughing his backside off realizing how easily Americans are duped.

I have always said, and certainly not just me, but on the internet, you keep looking you will find a site to validate what you WANT it to say.

If you are an American and you believed supposed "news" from other than recognized news sites, you re the butt of jokes in the Kremlin.

Don't take them down, but how about educating ourselves.

Why people go to bizarre extremist sites and then accept it because they want to, and then stupidly...and sorry, but it is stupid, repeat it should be, and must be the theme of many writings

Most people I know do not. They watch NBC, CBS and ABC, all left leaning. They Watch MSNBC AND CNN, both left leaning and Fox, Right leaning. They read Time, Newsweek, New York Times, Washington Post, mostly left leaning and Reuters, Guardian, and Vox not exactly the unbiased journalism we used to have but a little more like it.

They read and hear some news, but mostly opinions and some outright untruths on News Stations and News Services (AP wire) we used to be able to take to the bank.

[Bucco]

Most people I know do not. They watch NBC, CBS and ABC, all left leaning. They Watch MSNBC AND CNN, both left leaning and Fox, Right leaning. They read Time, Newsweek, New York Times, Washington Post, mostly left leaning and Reuters, Guardian, and Vox not exactly the unbiased journalism we used to have but a little more like it.

They read and hear some news, but mostly opinions and some outright untruths on News Stations and News Services (AP wire) we used to be able to take to the bank.

Grace, with all due respect....NEWS IS NEITHER LEFT LEANING OR RIGHT LEANING.

Commentary can be, but we are hearing it the way we THINK IT IS. If a news report is true, but not complimentary, we now suddenly say it's not true...we ignore all the facts, call it either left or riggt leaning.

News broadcasts are closely edited and scrutinized.

The media does NOT distort facts. You are calling a lot of great reporters liars, and it is just not true.

In addition, if you are not delving into topics, then, in my opinion, you lose the right to condemn others. This charge you are making is absolutely not true.

You should look into what it takes relative to validating facts before you can write anything, for example, in the Washington Post or the Times.

Today's indictments and the detail involved actually proves my point. We are very easily duped into accepting lies or misstatements.

[Polar Bear]

Grace, with all due respect....NEWS IS NEITHER LEFT LEANING OR RIGHT LEANING.

Commentary can be, but we are hearing it the way we THINK IT IS. If a news report is true, but not complimentary, we now suddenly say it's not true...we ignore all the facts, call it either left or riggt leaning.

News broadcasts are closely edited and scrutinized.

The media does NOT distort facts...
I keep wondering if you’re making these comments tongue-in-cheek. You can’t possibly believe this, can you? I think even most left and right leaning politically savvy folks would disagree with you.

I’m not saying all news sources or reporters are dishonest or bad. But many, including major ‘news’ sources, do try to pass off opinion and distortion as fact...in support of their political agenda.

[ColdNoMore]

Grace, with all due respect....NEWS IS NEITHER LEFT LEANING OR RIGHT LEANING.

Commentary can be, but we are hearing it the way we THINK IT IS. If a news report is true, but not complimentary, we now suddenly say it's not true...we ignore all the facts, call it either left or riggt leaning.

News broadcasts are closely edited and scrutinized.

The media does NOT distort facts. You are calling a lot of great reporters liars, and it is just not true.

In addition, if you are not delving into topics, then, in my opinion, you lose the right to condemn others. This charge you are making is absolutely not true.

You should look into what it takes relative to validating facts before you can write anything, for example, in the Washington Post or the Times.

Today's indictments and the detail involved actually proves my point. We are very easily duped into accepting lies or misstatements.

Dead on.

What a lot of people can't seem to discern these days, is actual news (facts)...versus opinion presented as news.

The Russian indictments today should put a quick end to those who believe certain people saying, that Russia didn't try to meddle in our democracy...but I'll bet it doesn't. :ohdear:

[Polar Bear]

Dead on.

What a lot of people can't seem to discern these days, is actual news (facts)...versus opinion presented as news...
Apparently.

[Polar Bear]

...You should look into what it takes relative to validating facts before you can write anything, for example, in the Washington Post...
Imo, possibly the most biased “news” source in the country. Even on those occasions when they do report something resembling the facts, it is absurdly biased and skewed in an effort to advance their own all-too-obvious political agenda.

[fw102807]

It is very scary how easy it is to manipulate people. That is why so many scams are so successful. All of those cute puppies and 100 yr old people and wounded vets on FB are just "like farming" sites to accumulate likes and shares for their pages. You can google this.

[Psa1000]

Steve9930 - I totally agree with your input.

[Bucco]

I keep wondering if you’re making these comments tongue-in-cheek. You can’t possibly believe this, can you? I think even most left and right leaning politically savvy folks would disagree with you.

I’m not saying all news sources or reporters are dishonest or bad. But many, including major ‘news’ sources, do try to pass off opinion and distortion as fact...in support of their political agenda.

All, everybody, are words I try not to use in any situation.

But, will ask for an example as I always do. Discerning NEWS seems to be difficult for some. Reading instead of listening seems to be difficult for some.

The detail in the indictments from yesterday show how "lazy" we really are and how we believe what we WANT to believe...much easier

[Bucco]

Imo, possibly the most biased “news” source in the country. Even on those occasions when they do report something resembling the facts, it is absurdly biased and skewed in an effort to advance their own all-too-obvious political agenda.

Example please

[Moderator]

This thread is about the recent school tragedy. It has veered off topic into a discussion of news reporting bias/accuracy. Please return to the topic or the thread will be closed.

Moderator

[graciegirl]

An unimaginable tragedy has occurred. Beautiful children and dedicated teachers have died. Life is over in many ways for their families forever.

No matter how we try to prevent things like this from happening, they will, and many think that if their ideas and views were heard and used, that would put an end to it.

Society has changed. People have changed. People ridicule others for sending "thoughts and prayers", people overlook "small thefts". It is more important to too many to have a successful career than to stay with a child during the early formative years, the same amount of time it takes to get a college degree. Many of us have lost our way. Many people leave people to die after a hit and run.

I don't know the answers. I don't even know the right questions.

[fw102807]

The point is that we all keep trying to find a way to protect these kids. Obviously there were measures in place that failed on several levels. Hopefully next time they will do better. People who have ideas or who know of things have worked elsewhere need to contact their legislators and plead with them to do something.

[Taltarzac725]

The kids involved in the Parkland mass shooting are working on changing the system and they may well do it. I do have to write that I am so crushed that this happened yet again. We can do something but there are no easy answers but there are complicated ones.

Let us just concentrate on the victims and their families and friends and their corresponding communities and hope they can heal from this tragedy.

17 killed in mass shooting at high school in Parkland, Florida - NBC News (https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/police-respond-shooting-parkland-florida-high-school-n848101)

I want to put out a metaphor-- if you faucet sink is leaking and flooding your house you try every thing you can to stop the deluge. And as quickly as possible. And to make sure that it does not start filling the house with water yet again. You use any tool that works and/or call anyone who is able to fix the problem.

[graciegirl]

Let us try for realistic solutions that can be used rather than trying to change the prevailing majority opinion.

It again boils down to what we can hope to accomplish and what is realistic and what is unrealistic.

I think that is making schools safer with training to save lives if a shooting begins, how to break windows and escape rather than stay like sitting ducks. Maybe have safe rooms installed in schools.

Maybe retired volunteers with lifelong security clearance such as retired secret service or CIA people or retired Law Enforcement Officers who are licensed and trained to carry being used for added security.

Let's focus on what realistically can happen rather than what probably won't happen. Please keep in mind we don't have guns in our family. We don't belong to the NRA, but there are many decent, calm, people who feel safer owning a gun as they get older and can't run fast or fight hard. This is something I discovered after moving to The Villages that have people from across the country here. We must deal with the reality that gun laws will NOT be changed much or at all.

[fw102807]

Let us try for realistic solutions that can be used rather than trying to change the prevailing majority opinion.

It again boils down to what we can hope to accomplish and what is realistic and what is unrealistic.

I think that is making schools safer with training to save lives if a shooting begins.

Maybe retired volunteers with lifelong security clearance such as retired secret service or CIA people or retired Law Enforcement Officers who are licensed and trained to carry being used for added security.

Let's focus on what realistically can happen rather than what probably won't happen.

Just read this very depressing article about how training failed

Why active shooter drills didn’t help in the Florida high school shooting (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/why-active-shooter-drills-didn%e2%80%99t-help-in-the-florida-high-school-shooting/ar-BBJe7bc?li=BBnb7Kz)

[Taltarzac725]

Just read this very depressing article about how training failed

Why active shooter drills didn’t help in the Florida high school shooting (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/why-active-shooter-drills-didn%e2%80%99t-help-in-the-florida-high-school-shooting/ar-BBJe7bc?li=BBnb7Kz)

We do need to do better for all our grandkids, nieces, nephews, friends' grandkids, etc.

Lots of wisdom here in the Villages. We do need to start applying it.

This could be turning point in the problem of gun violence in America affecting schools. The Parkland kids and their loved ones are very determined to do something to stop these tragedies. Or, at least, weaken the probability of these occurring.

[graciegirl]

Just read this very depressing article about how training failed

Why active shooter drills didn’t help in the Florida high school shooting (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/why-active-shooter-drills-didn%e2%80%99t-help-in-the-florida-high-school-shooting/ar-BBJe7bc?li=BBnb7Kz)

So. Safe rooms? Breaking windows? Getting people with life long security clearance to help who are now retired and have a carry permit? As YOU say, keep thinking of ways.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Just read this very depressing article about how training failed

Why active shooter drills didn’t help in the Florida high school shooting (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/why-active-shooter-drills-didn%e2%80%99t-help-in-the-florida-high-school-shooting/ar-BBJe7bc?li=BBnb7Kz)

There was one armed police officer at that school and he was hundreds of yards away in another part of the school when the shooting began.

What is needed is well trained armed people in every other classroom. I like Gracie's idea, but I don't know if you'd ever get enough people volunteer and the cost would be too high. I believe that it should be a requirement of the job that teachers be licensed, trained and armed when at school.

If teachers are not willing to do this, then they are not willing to protect the children whose lives that they are entrusted.

And what author of this article failed to see is that the active shooter drills may have saved many lives. We'll never know for certain, but without those procedures in place, the death toll might have been much higher. In one case, a teacher was shot and killed as he was blocking a doorway. Students were crouched behind his desk and the shooter didn't enter the room after shooting the teacher. One student who was in that room said that she though that he didn't come in because he didn't think that there would be anyone in the room. Of course, we don't know for sure, but the lives of those students might have been saved by the active shooter policies put in place.

[fw102807]

So. Safe rooms? Breaking windows? Getting people with life long security clearance to help who are now retired and have a carry permit? As YOU say, keep thinking of ways.

Cameras?

[fw102807]

There was one armed police officer at that school and he was hundreds of yards away in another part of the school when the shooting began.

What is needed is well trained armed people in every other classroom. I like Gracie's idea, but I don't know if you'd ever get enough people volunteer and the cost would be too high. I believe that it should be a requirement of the job that teachers be licensed, trained and armed when at school.

If teachers are not willing to do this, then they are not willing to protect the children whose lives that they are entrusted.

I personally would not be willing to carry a firearm so I think a lot of the teachers would balk at this.

[graciegirl]

There was one armed police officer at that school and he was hundreds of yards away in another part of the school when the shooting began.

What is needed is well trained armed people in every other classroom. I like Gracie's idea, but I don't know if you'd ever get enough people volunteer and the cost would be too high. I believe that it should be a requirement of the job that teachers be licensed, trained and armed when at school.

If teachers are not willing to do this, then they are not willing to protect the children whose lives that they are entrusted.

I don't think anyone should be expected or forced to carry a gun as a requirement to teach children.

Yes Pay the people who have life long permits to carry.

I am a frugal person, always careful with money, quick to vote down tax increases but I have always voted for school levies.

[Bucco]

My suggestion is to contact your legislator because the Secy of Education has called for hearings on school shootings, and in my opinion, having seen the speed in which we conduct hearings in the past, why not THIS....NOW.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/education/wp/2018/02/16/betsy-devos-and-democrats-call-for-congressional-hearings-in-wake-of-florida-school-shooting/?utm_term=.e5f83a053d0a

Best laid plans on TOTV will change nothing.

Public hearings on specifically protecting our children at school is the way to go.

[fw102807]

My suggestion is to contact your legislator because the Secy of Education has called for hearings on school shootings, and in my opinion, having seen the speed in which we conduct hearings in the past, why not THIS....NOW.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/education/wp/2018/02/16/betsy-devos-and-democrats-call-for-congressional-hearings-in-wake-of-florida-school-shooting/?utm_term=.e5f83a053d0a

Best laid plans on TOTV will change nothing.

Public hearings on specifically protecting our children at school is the way to go.

Good suggestion.

[Taltarzac725]

Many kids getting into the movement for change will have an impact. Hopefully us seniors or near seniors will get involved with supporting what they would like to see change.

It should be a many pronged response to change things. Approach it from every angle.

[Boomer]

This thread is about the recent school tragedy. It has veered off topic into a discussion of news reporting bias/accuracy. Please return to the topic or the thread will be closed.

Moderator


Good morning, Moderator,

May I respectfully request that this thread not be closed because the topic has veered into a discussion of the bias of “news.” Everybody is being nice, even though there are disagreements. There has been no name-calling. No ugly cartoons. Nobody is hurling anything.

News = Who? What? When? Where? Why? How? — It scares me to see how many intelligent, kind people seem to no longer be able to look for the Why?

In 1984 Orwell’s 1984 was part of the curriculum for my class. In the book, the Proles were constantly manipulated by propaganda until they could no longer think for themselves. The language was policed. Word meanings were changed. People were dehumanized. Violent movies as entertainment were a part of the propaganda so that the Proles would become immune to violence. That immunity allowed the government of Oceania to do whatever those who held the power wanted to do and to never be questioned by the brainwashed Proles. (Guns are political and lobbyists line pockets in DC. People are made paranoid that their guns will be taken away. Think about it. That cannot possibly happen. But we have to find a way to stop arming monsters.)

I hope this thread can continue. Even though some posters might be made uncomfortable by having their opinions and “news” sources questioned, that’s OK — as long as we remain civil. (Besides all that, good discussions cause people to think and that is what broadens the original topic.)

Please do not be so quick to shut this thread down. This discussion is important. We all need to look at the “Why?” that is loaded into the “news” while we still know how to think for ourselves and to question — and to discuss in a civilized manner.

[Taltarzac725]

The Parkland kids will keep fighting until change happens is the impression I get. We need to start helping them or continue to do so if we have been.

[graciegirl]

Good morning, Moderator,

May I respectfully request that this thread not be closed because the topic has veered into a discussion of the bias of “news.” Everybody is being nice, even though there are disagreements. There has been no name-calling. No ugly cartoons. Nobody is hurling anything.

News = Who? What? When? Where? Why? How? — It scares me to see how many intelligent, kind people seem to no longer be able to look for the Why?

In 1984 Orwell’s 1984 was part of the curriculum for my class. In the book, the Proles were constantly manipulated by propaganda until they could no longer think for themselves. The language was policed. Word meanings were changed. People were dehumanized. Violent movies as entertainment were a part of the propaganda so that the Proles would become immune to violence. That immunity allowed the government of Oceania to do whatever those who held the power wanted to do and to never be questioned by the brainwashed Proles.

I hope this thread can continue. Even though some posters might be made uncomfortable by having their opinions and “news” sources questioned, that’s OK — as long as we remain civil.

Please do not be so quick to shut this thread down. This discussion is important. We all need to look at the “Why?” that is loaded into the “news” while we still know how to think for ourselves and to question — and to discuss in a civilized manner.

Long live the First Amendment. May those who insist we use only politically correct speech wane.

[Boomer]

Long live the First Amendment. May those who insist we use only politically correct speech wane.

Hey, Gracie, you quoted me before I added a couple of thoughts about how we have to find a way to stop arming monsters and how powerful lobbies are lining pockets in DC and how language is being loaded to make law-abiding gun owners think the government is going to get their guns — not gonna happen.

And before somebody says I am a commie pinko or whatever, huh-uh, I am truly a moderate. I believe the answers are in the middle. We have to figure out this mess we are in.

[Taltarzac725]

Hey, Gracie, you quoted me before I added a couple of thoughts about how we have to find a way to stop arming monsters and how powerful lobbies are lining pockets in DC and how language is being loaded to make law-abiding gun owners think the government is going to get their guns — not gonna happen.

And before somebody says I am a commie pinko or whatever, huh-uh, I am truly a moderate. I believe the answers are in the middle. We have to figure out this mess we are in.

Very true especially when all this hits very close to home. I should not say any more at this trying time. I do think many Villagers will be looking at this tragic Parkland shooting differently in the upcoming months. Respecting privacy though of survivors is very important. I probably should not have written this but there is a thread now about this horrifying shooting.

If you figure this out I hope you also respect the privacy of the people in question.

[Bucco]

Good morning, Moderator,

May I respectfully request that this thread not be closed because the topic has veered into a discussion of the bias of “news.” Everybody is being nice, even though there are disagreements. There has been no name-calling. No ugly cartoons. Nobody is hurling anything.

News = Who? What? When? Where? Why? How? — It scares me to see how many intelligent, kind people seem to no longer be able to look for the Why?

In 1984 Orwell’s 1984 was part of the curriculum for my class. In the book, the Proles were constantly manipulated by propaganda until they could no longer think for themselves. The language was policed. Word meanings were changed. People were dehumanized. Violent movies as entertainment were a part of the propaganda so that the Proles would become immune to violence. That immunity allowed the government of Oceania to do whatever those who held the power wanted to do and to never be questioned by the brainwashed Proles. (Guns are political and lobbyists line pockets in DC. People are made paranoid that their guns will be taken away. Think about it. That cannot possibly happen. But we have to find a way to stop arming monsters.)

I hope this thread can continue. Even though some posters might be made uncomfortable by having their opinions and “news” sources questioned, that’s OK — as long as we remain civil. (Besides all that, good discussions cause people to think and that is what broadens the original topic.)

Please do not be so quick to shut this thread down. This discussion is important. We all need to look at the “Why?” that is loaded into the “news” while we still know how to think for ourselves and to question — and to discuss in a civilized manner.

I concur totally.

This morning, because of this discussion, I insured that I visited each of the 3 major cable news networks and read them on line.

It was as if we were in different countries, the "news" being covered and the commentary added. Actually, it was totally as if I had access to different countries versions of everything.

You know, I suggested early on to ignore the cable news channels totally and this will allow me to reinforce that.

Mr. Moderator, you have been more than nice in allowing this thread to continue, but to support this post from BOOMER I can only say in reading yesterdays indictments and reading, we are not even discussing the same "facts" and that is scary.

[Bucco]

I endorse everyone reading the indictments handed down yesterday and how we were taken advantage of and also endorse everyone to start READING instead of watching and having someone tell you how to feel.

[Taltarzac725]

I concur totally.

This morning, because of this discussion, I insured that I visited each of the 3 major cable news networks and read them on line.

It was as if we were in different countries, the "news" being covered and the commentary added. Actually, it was totally as if I had access to different countries versions of everything.

You know, I suggested early on to ignore the cable news channels totally and this will allow me to reinforce that.

Mr. Moderator, you have been more than nice in allowing this thread to continue, but to support this post from BOOMER I can only say in reading yesterdays indictments and reading, we are not even discussing the same "facts" and that is scary.

I read many sources for current events. Even FOX on occasion. For a laugh usually. Been doing lot of crying as well because of the Parkland shooting but not as much as some other Villagers I know quite well. :(

I do hope that the Parkland students will really change things and from what I have seen on Facebook believe they will.

If you can read between these lines remember to respect the privacy of the people in question. Do not post names, etc., until they are OK with it and have had time to grieve. I feel a little uncomfortable even writing this.

[Bucco]

I betcha most of us can figure out how you voted.;)

Not sure how anyone voted pertains to either these children killed or insuring we know facts. How anyone voted seems pretty darn unimportant.

[Taltarzac725]

Not sure how anyone voted pertains to either these children killed or insuring we know facts. How anyone voted seems pretty darn unimportant.

Me too. Remember that Villagers can have grandkids anywhere. I should not say anymore than that because of respect for the privacy of those involved in this matter. I will say that the Valentine's Day massacre in Parkland hit and still does extremely close to home to some Villagers. With the murder of one of these 17 kids especially but all of them are important in so many ways.

The Villages Daily Sun might do a story on this Villages' connection at some point but it is way too early for that and they would need to talk to the people involved.

Just show some sensitivity in case they read Talk of the Villages. I mean the grandparents not so much The Villages Daily Sun even if a story like this would be hard on the journalist(s) and photographer as well.

[Boomer]

In the last years of my 35 years in secondary ed, I had to think about how I would protect those dear teenagers who were in my classes. I always felt responsible for them. But in the last years — Where would we hide? Where would we run? Nothing in my own education prepared me for that.

[Bucco]

In the last years of my 35 years in secondary ed, I had to think about how I would protect those dear teenagers who were in my classes. I always felt responsible for them. But in the last years — Where would we hide? Where would we run? Nothing in my own education prepared me for that.

I understand. Watching my wife nurture these kids for over 30 years and knowing the emotions she had and has on protecting children, I can relate.

I keep saying it and get rebuffed, but in addition to common sense on guns, we have a "mean spirited" attitude spreading through this country like I have never seen, and I do not know how that is resolved.

[GoodLife]

Lets see

Broward County Sheriff’s Office were called to this this kid's home 39 times in 7 years, included “mentally ill person,” “child/elderly abuse,” “domestic disturbance” and “missing person,”

He posts photos of himself with guns and knives on Instagram, makes threats

FBI gets tipped on him twice, youtube comment "I'm going to be a professional school shooter." Uses real name. 2nd time they were notified exactly who he is, The FBI acknowledged that a person close to Cruz had called in warning about Cruz's desire to kill. FBI does not follow up.

We don't need better gun laws, we need better law enforcement.

[fw102807]

Good morning, Moderator,

May I respectfully request that this thread not be closed because the topic has veered into a discussion of the bias of “news.” Everybody is being nice, even though there are disagreements. There has been no name-calling. No ugly cartoons. Nobody is hurling anything.

News = Who? What? When? Where? Why? How? — It scares me to see how many intelligent, kind people seem to no longer be able to look for the Why?

In 1984 Orwell’s 1984 was part of the curriculum for my class. In the book, the Proles were constantly manipulated by propaganda until they could no longer think for themselves. The language was policed. Word meanings were changed. People were dehumanized. Violent movies as entertainment were a part of the propaganda so that the Proles would become immune to violence. That immunity allowed the government of Oceania to do whatever those who held the power wanted to do and to never be questioned by the brainwashed Proles. (Guns are political and lobbyists line pockets in DC. People are made paranoid that their guns will be taken away. Think about it. That cannot possibly happen. But we have to find a way to stop arming monsters.)

I hope this thread can continue. Even though some posters might be made uncomfortable by having their opinions and “news” sources questioned, that’s OK — as long as we remain civil. (Besides all that, good discussions cause people to think and that is what broadens the original topic.)

Please do not be so quick to shut this thread down. This discussion is important. We all need to look at the “Why?” that is loaded into the “news” while we still know how to think for ourselves and to question — and to discuss in a civilized manner.

Scary how relevant this book is

[ColdNoMore]

Or at least should be....

[Bucco]

Lets see

Broward County Sheriff’s Office were called to this this kid's home 39 times in 7 years, included “mentally ill person,” “child/elderly abuse,” “domestic disturbance” and “missing person,”

He posts photos of himself with guns and knives on Instagram, makes threats

FBI gets tipped on him twice, youtube comment "I'm going to be a professional school shooter." Uses real name. 2nd time they were notified exactly who he is, The FBI acknowledged that a person close to Cruz had called in warning about Cruz's desire to kill. FBI does not follow up.

We don't need better gun laws, we need better law enforcement.

You certainly have the right to throw blame for this on the FBI. They sure did screw up, and if you feel this is on them, so be it.

I look at the FBI as extremely brave hero's in this country.

I would not consider demeaning a police officer, a department of law enforcement for human error. This was a terrible oversight it appears....admitted to and investigation begun.

I will still think of our FBI as hero's who have deterred so many terrorist attacks or shootings, without even a blip in the news.

They are still, without a doubt, my heroes.

[ColdNoMore]

You certainly have the right to throw blame for this on the FBI. They sure did screw up, and if you feel this is on them, so be it.

I look at the FBI as extremely brave hero's in this country.

I would not consider demeaning a police officer, a department of law enforcement for human error. This was a terrible oversight it appears....admitted to and investigation begun.

I will still think of our FBI as hero's who have deterred so many terrorist attacks or shootings, without even a blip in the news.

They are still, without a doubt, my heroes.

Exactly.

While it is definitely appropriate to do an in-depth analysis on what went wrong in this case, the plethora of attacks/atrocities that the FBI has quietly thwarted...cannot be overlooked.

The real problem is what can be done with/to someone like this, before they've actually done anything illegal...without violating their rights?

THAT conundrum...will be the hardest to solve. :ohdear:

[autumnspring]

These shootings happen in gun-free zones. Teachers and school staff should be allowed to conceal carry in schools, after they obtain the proper training. When seconds count, the police are minutes away. My thoughts and prayers are for all those affected by this horrific event in Broward County.

Some YOU,suggest teachers should be armed.

I DON'T KNOW but were it to be implemented. What would that teach the kids. Some people posting on this thread would object to it. Even if it was put into effect, would a teacher be prepared to pull the trigger or would they assume if they pull out a gun the perpetrator would after shooting some people, some kids, simply give up.

For that matter, in what just happened. Does anyone believe the shooter would not have grabbed a kid and used him as a shield?.

As stated, a simple solution does not exist.

I expect the defense will argue the shooter is insane. He is 19. We will need to keep him in prison for as long as 80 years at a current cost of ????? 100,000 a year.

Can we, can I, accept that a sane person is capable of this unfathomable act?

[GoodLife]

You certainly have the right to throw blame for this on the FBI. They sure did screw up, and if you feel this is on them, so be it.

I look at the FBI as extremely brave hero's in this country.

I would not consider demeaning a police officer, a department of law enforcement for human error. This was a terrible oversight it appears....admitted to and investigation begun.

I will still think of our FBI as hero's who have deterred so many terrorist attacks or shootings, without even a blip in the news.

They are still, without a doubt, my heroes.

Try selling that to the parents of dead kids. I expect we will be hearing about some lawsuits shortly.

This isn't the first mass shooter the FBI has missed in Florida.

[Bucco]

Some YOU,suggest teachers should be armed.

I DON'T KNOW but were it to be implemented. What would that teach the kids. Some people posting on this thread would object to it. Even if it was put into effect, would a teacher be prepared to pull the trigger or would they assume if they pull out a gun the perpetrator would after shooting some people, some kids, simply give up.

For that matter, in what just happened. Does anyone believe the shooter would not have grabbed a kid and used him as a shield?.

As stated, a simple solution does not exist.

I expect the defense will argue the shooter is insane. He is 19. We will need to keep him in prison for as long as 80 years at a current cost of ????? 100,000 a year.

Can we, can I, accept that a sane person is capable of this unfathomable act?

Certainly would change the curriculum for teacher education.

I still think the politics should go away, and there should be a public congressional hearing on any practical gun law solutions, and also the handling of these mental problems within the schools, which is probably the most difficult to solve of the two.

I realize the long arm of NRA money and influence...that is why PUBLIC hearings are important. Allow everyone to see and hear.

[Bucco]

Try selling that to the parents of dead kids. I expect we will be hearing about some lawsuits shortly.

This isn't the first mass shooter the FBI has missed in Florida.

You know, your issue with the FBI is noted. I will look for your comments on any individual police error that occurs, and check with you as the FBI saves so many lives. This, to me, is more political than anything.

I assure you...it was a serious admission....it has been admitted to and not covered....seemed to have identifies the WHY, and there will be consequences.

Would it not be great if all aspects of the government were that open, honest and straight forward ?

[GoodLife]

You know, your issue with the FBI is noted. I will look for your comments on any individual police error that occurs, and check with you as the FBI saves so many lives. This, to me, is more political than anything.

I assure you...it was a serious admission....it has been admitted to and not covered....seemed to have identifies the WHY, and there will be consequences.

Would it not be great if all aspects of the government were that open, honest and straight forward ?

Your issue with defending the FBI no matter how grave their errors is also duly noted. The facts are is that about one month before the massacre, somebody who knew Cruz called the FBI to report "Cruz’s gun ownership, desire to kill people, erratic behavior, and disturbing social media posts, as well as the potential of him conducting a school shooting."

You can't get a better tip than that. They were handed this guy on a platter.

[Bucco]

Your issue with defending the FBI no matter how grave their errors is also duly noted. The facts are is that about one month before the massacre, somebody who knew Cruz called the FBI to report "Cruz’s gun ownership, desire to kill people, erratic behavior, and disturbing social media posts, as well as the potential of him conducting a school shooting."

You can't get a better tip than that. They were handed this guy on a platter.

I have never defended this error, so insure when you put words in mouth, you are accurate.

I, and everyone else acknowledge the mistake, including the FBI..in less than 24 hour...facts is they were on the phone to the person who reported the incident within hours. They admitted it openly and publicly.....they are doing thourough investigation.

I suppose they could have called the report a hoax, and attacked those reporting it, but they didn't.

Someone will pay. They are still my hero and you cannot diminish that because...well, you just cannot.

[ColdNoMore]

Your issue with defending the FBI no matter how grave their errors is also duly noted. The facts are is that about one month before the massacre, somebody who knew Cruz called the FBI to report "Cruz’s gun ownership, desire to kill people, erratic behavior, and disturbing social media posts, as well as the potential of him conducting a school shooting."

You can't get a better tip than that. They were handed this guy on a platter.

And besides knocking on his door and talking to him, the FBI could have legally done what...that would have stopped him from doing what he did?

[Moderator]

This thread has persisted in turning into a discussion of news reporting bias/accuracy. If you wish to discuss that topic, without political comments or references, you must start a new thread on that topic. This thread is to discuss the school shooting and potential solutions to safeguard citizens from such violence. Further off topic posts will cause this thread to be closed. It’s up to you whether it stays open or not.

Moderator

[fw102807]

Perchance, the moderator will allow a conversation on factual reporting, I would like to add this as a result of analyzing the indictments of the Russians. These are not my words, but those of Evan Osnos who wrote a great pice in the New Yorker on these indictments and their meaning...
---------------------
"The power of news illiteracy. At the heart of the Russian fraud is an essential, embarrassing insight into American life: large numbers of Americans are ill-equipped to assess the credibility of the things they read. The willingness to believe purported news stories, often riddled with typos or coming from unfamiliar outlets, is a liability of today’s fragmented media and polarized politics. Even the trolls themselves were surprised at what Americans would believe. According to the indictment, in September, 2017, once U.S. authorities had begun to crack down on the fraud, one of the defendants, Irina Viktorovna Kaverzina, e-mailed a family member, saying, “We had a slight crisis here at work: the FBI busted our activity (not a joke). So, I got preoccupied with covering tracks together with the colleagues.” She went on, “I created all these pictures and posts, and the Americans believed that it was written by their people.”
-----------------------
We Americans seem to simply accept what we want to accept and the truth of the matter, or validity of facts is ignored.

Then to know these same people are entering into the fray concerning our children dying.

It has been chilling to hear so called Americans discussing what these indictments actually mean...the simply reinforce what the Russians already know about us.

I would once again urge people to read "The Whole Truth" by David Baldacci which illustrates just how easy it is to pass off fake news and have it be entirely credible and believable to the point of starting another cold war. It was a very chilling and enlightening book.

[fw102807]

Sorry Moderator, I posted this before your post appeared on my page.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Some YOU,suggest teachers should be armed.

I DON'T KNOW but were it to be implemented. What would that teach the kids. Some people posting on this thread would object to it. Even if it was put into effect, would a teacher be prepared to pull the trigger or would they assume if they pull out a gun the perpetrator would after shooting some people, some kids, simply give up.

For that matter, in what just happened. Does anyone believe the shooter would not have grabbed a kid and used him as a shield?.

As stated, a simple solution does not exist.

I expect the defense will argue the shooter is insane. He is 19. We will need to keep him in prison for as long as 80 years at a current cost of ????? 100,000 a year.

Can we, can I, accept that a sane person is capable of this unfathomable act?

What it teaches the kids is that we have to be responsible for protecting ourselves. It also shows that the teachers care enough about them to be willing to protect them. There is an armed officer assigned to Parkland High School but was on the other side of the school when this event took place. It's likely that this shooter knew where the officer would be.

I would actually make it a requirement of the job that teachers and administrators be trained, licensed and armed when on school property. What that would do is discourage most people who have any idea of shooting up a school from actually acting on that idea. It would also minimize the damage should someone try.

Yes, it's possible that the shooter could grab a kid and use him as a shield. Would that be any worse than what happened? Nothing is perfect, but we see what happens in gun free zones when a person decides to kill people. At least with armed school employees, there would be a chance.

You can talk about banning guns all you want. It'snot going to happen. You can talk about changing the culture, good luck with that. You can have all the drills you want, but they're not going to prevent anyone from doing what this guy did. You can encourage "if you see something, say something" all day long. It's not a bad thing, but as we saw Wednesday, a lot of people saw something and said something and nothing was done about it.

We have armed police protecting our citizens. We have armed guards protecting our money. We have armed secret service agents protecting our politicians, but evidently, for some people, our children are not important enough to have armed people protecting.

I doubt that the perpetrator will use the insanity defense. His lawyer already said that he knew what he was doing and is remorseful. In order to prove insanity, it has to be demonstrated that the defendant was not aware of the results of his actions or that he didn't know right from wrong. This guy knew what he was doing and hopefully will get a needle in the arm soon. I understand that he plans to plead guilty in order to avoid the death penalty. If I were the prosecutor, I wouldn't accpet that deal.

[billethkid]

And besides knocking on his door and talking to him, the FBI could have legally done what...that would have stopped him from doing what he did?

Hence a need for change is required to meet the times!!

[ColdNoMore]

What it teaches the kids is that we have to be responsible for protecting ourselves. It also shows that the teachers care enough about them to be willing to protect them. There is an armed officer assigned to Parkland High School but was on the other side of the school when this event took place. It's likely that this shooter knew where the officer would be.

I would actually make it a requirement of the job that teachers and administrators be trained, licensed and armed when on school property. What that would do is discourage most people who have any idea of shooting up a school from actually acting on that idea. It would also minimize the damage should someone try.

Yes, it's possible that the shooter could grab a kid and use him as a shield. Would that be any worse than what happened? Nothing is perfect, but we see what happens in gun free zones when a person decides to kill people. At least with armed school employees, there would be a chance.

You can talk about banning guns all you want. It'snot going to happen. You can talk about changing the culture, good luck with that. You can have all the drills you want, but they're not going to prevent anyone from doing what this guy did. You can encourage "if you see something, say something" all day long. It's not a bad thing, but as we saw Wednesday, a lot of people saw something and said something and nothing was done about it.

We have armed police protecting our citizens. We have armed guards protecting our money. We have armed secret service agents protecting our politicians, but evidently, for some people, our children are not important enough to have armed people protecting.

Or mebbe not.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

A scary term made up by the media and politicians.

Rifles are broken down by function. There are muzzle loaders, there are bolt action rifles, there are semi-automatic rifles and there are automatic rifles.

The media and politicians would have you believe that any rifle that is black, has a pistol grip and can accept a magazine is an "Assault Weapon"..

Actually, the term assault rifle refers to fully automatic rifles which are so heavily regulated that they might as well be banned.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Or mebbe not.

Like I said, nothing's perfect but arming teachers and administrators would reduce the risk significantly.

[ColdNoMore]

Hence a need for change is required to meet the times!!

A change like this?

[ColdNoMore]

Like I said, nothing's perfect but arming teachers and administrators would reduce the risk significantly.

In your opinion.


I absolutely, totally, wholly and unequivocally...disagree.

[billethkid]

Some YOU,suggest teachers should be armed.

I DON'T KNOW but were it to be implemented. What would that teach the kids. Some people posting on this thread would object to it. Even if it was put into effect, would a teacher be prepared to pull the trigger or would they assume if they pull out a gun the perpetrator would after shooting some people, some kids, simply give up.

For that matter, in what just happened. Does anyone believe the shooter would not have grabbed a kid and used him as a shield?.

As stated, a simple solution does not exist.

I expect the defense will argue the shooter is insane. He is 19. We will need to keep him in prison for as long as 80 years at a current cost of ????? 100,000 a year.

Can we, can I, accept that a sane person is capable of this unfathomable act?

YES!
The insanity defense is nothing more....NOTHING MORE....than a legal tactic that triggers certain attitudes within the "letter of the law".
A killer like the current school shooter won't know he is "insane" until he meets a defending attorney.
The attorney's task is to create doubt using the letter of the law.
Using the letter of the law means using it, abusing it or hiding behind it....which ever gets the verdict being sought for their client.
Does not mean or imply or guarantee truth...just create doubt. With doubt comes no conviction!!!!

[Polar Bear]

In your opinion.

I absolutely, totally, wholly and unequivocally...disagree.
Wow. We agree again, CNM. :)

[GoodLife]

And besides knocking on his door and talking to him, the FBI could have legally done what...that would have stopped him from doing what he did?

School Shooting threats now a felony
Oct 5, 2016

School shooting threats now a felony (http://lakerlutznews.com/lln/?p=39737)

You might want to look up the law before making comments.

[ColdNoMore]

Wow. We agree again, CNM. :)

Stop it! :mad:



:D

[ColdNoMore]

School Shooting threats now a felony
Oct 5, 2016

School shooting threats now a felony (http://lakerlutznews.com/lln/?p=39737)

You might want to look up the law before making comments.

And you might want to reread my post. ;)

Putting aside the fact that the law you linked is a state law, not federal, here is something you should read...in regards to what actions can actually be taken in such instances.

Could a tip to the FBI have stopped the Florida shooting? | PBS NewsHour (https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/could-a-tip-to-the-fbi-have-stopped-the-florida-shooting)


But hey, I'm all for a federal law that allows locking up...those who verbally advocate violence toward others.

If that were in effect, we would currently have a totally different national scenario. :D

[graciegirl]

But back to the thread. I am all for trying something new if it will work. I think people don't want to get rid of guns simply because they are afraid, and rightfully so. I am 78. I don't recall hearing about anyone who I knew in the area I lived growing up being murdered. There was domestic violence and drunks. Some people would say if they took booze away that would stop. I think they did, prohibition happened before I was born and people still beat their wives. Now people hit someone in their car and leave them by the side of the road. Maybe if we caught them and took away their drivers license that would stop. And then there is drugs. Every day people are dying from Heroin and since we can't seem to stop that by passing legislation we are trying to get everyone educated about Narcan and are working to have it everywhere it is needed. Some support drugs being made legal. Maybe that would work.

What happened to that cold feeling we all had when we knew in our gut something was wrong?

[Taltarzac725]

Going to school should not turn into a death sentence, but this is America | Miami Herald (http://www.miamiherald.com/opinion/opn-columns-blogs/carl-hiaasen/article200659634.html)

This is a good article by Carl Hiaasen.

I have great respect for the FBI. They monitor Facebook and many other places for terrorists both domestic and foreign. They do miss things as they are humans.

[Bucco]

And you might want to reread my post. ;)

Putting aside the fact that the law you linked is a state law, not federal, here is something you should read...in regards to what actions can actually be taken in such instances.

Could a tip to the FBI have stopped the Florida shooting? | PBS NewsHour (https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/could-a-tip-to-the-fbi-have-stopped-the-florida-shooting)


But hey, I'm all for a federal law that allows locking up...those who verbally advocate violence toward others.

If that were in effect, we would currently have a totally different national scenario. :D

The poster you are educating is simply following what he/she believes are orders from on high..nothing more. Has not offered a shred of condolances or ideas on this terrible thing..simply playing the politics of attack.

In any case, the more I read, the more I still feel OPEN and PUBLIC hearings broadcast at prime time on SCHOOL SHOOTINGS and what to do is in order.

This must be aired in public..and have those who are simply pro NRA on the record as well as those who might be anti. A serious discussion to see and hear our folks in action.

This hearing should include discussions on guns and mental health issues. Many think all of this is simply and it is not, but our children deserve a serious discussion on all of it.

I am appalled that the sheer power that the NRA seems to have, but not anti gun at all. I feel that the problem is a combination of both potential gun regulations and the due process of identifying and processing mental health concerns.

Despite the poster who simply attacks the FBI they have dealt with thousands of calls, etc and can speak to the obstacles that they have in handling such calls.

It should NOT be a hearing on the 2nd amendment in anyway but a specific hearing to determine the best action to protect our children while they are at school.

While you and I agree a lot on this, I will say this.....I do not know what could have been done had this been referred to the Miami FBI office as the link you gave addressed the first warning signal that was almost impossible to trace and work on, but had the Miam office been alerted....who knows.

I also think that local law enforcement who KNEW of this kid for quite some time should respond, not on the defensive, but as for the good of knowing what can and cannot be done and be whom. Police and FBI do an outstanding job but are human and restricted by law.

[Bucco]

Going to school should not turn into a death sentence, but this is America | Miami Herald (http://www.miamiherald.com/opinion/opn-columns-blogs/carl-hiaasen/article200659634.html)

This is a good article by Carl Hiaasen.

I have great respect for the FBI. They monitor Facebook and many other places for terrorists both domestic and foreign. They do miss things as they are humans.

Many many people are alive today because of their intervention...this was a breech for sure and requires accountability and I think they have stepped up far more than other branches of government FOR SURE.

FBI are true heroes.....I say that from reading and personal experience albeit many years ago

[graciegirl]

When our kids were at home and invited to spend the night at a new friends home, I would call the parents and ask them if they kept guns in their house and if they did, I wouldn't let kids spend the night.

I am not a gun owner or an NRA advocate, and I don't look at either as loathsome. I am a realist.

If half the country does not want to give up guns or have them further controlled, all the rhetoric in the world, the best debaters, the finest arguments are not going to change their minds.

So I say; What else do we have to protect children who are going to go and enter school buildings nine months out of every year until they are eighteen?

[GoodLife]

And you might want to reread my post. ;)

Putting aside the fact that the law you linked is a state law, not federal, here is something you should read...in regards to what actions can actually be taken in such instances.

Could a tip to the FBI have stopped the Florida shooting? | PBS NewsHour (https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/could-a-tip-to-the-fbi-have-stopped-the-florida-shooting)


But hey, I'm all for a federal law that allows locking up...those who verbally advocate violence toward others.

If that were in effect, we would currently have a totally different national scenario. :D

Good try but your PBS link only addresses the first tip FBI got in which they could not find out who he was, the 2nd tip was from someone who knew Cruz, where he lived, threats made etc etc.

Cruz committed a Felony under Florida state law, so federal law not relevant, many students in many states have been arrested and prosecuted for making school shooting threats. FBI and LEOs blew it and could have stopped a massacre.

[Bucco]

When our kids were at home and invited to spend the night at a new friends home, I would call the parents and ask them if they kept guns in their house and if they did, I wouldn't let kids spend the night.

I am not a gun owner or an NRA advocate, and I don't look at either as loathsome. I am a realist.

If half the country does not want to give up guns all the rhetoric in the world, the best debaters, the finest arguments are not going to change their minds.

So I say; What else do we have to protect children who are going to go and enter school buildings nine months out of every year until they are eighteen?

I have not heard one single person advocate "giving up guns" at any time.

That is political rhetoric who see it as a platform on which to get elected.

Guns need to be controlled in my opinion. I apply simple common sense as I see it. AR15's simply rip folks body to shreds and thus I have not been satisfied that a weapon like that is necessary.

I understand hunters, personal protection, hobbyists, etc.

Then if we as a country want so many guns, then lets at least scrutinize who has them. Not allowing social security recipients who have been judged to not be able to handle their own affairs by reason of sub par mental capacity should not have guns in my opinion.

This is for smarter and more "gun educated" folks than me, but seems the question is ......can we get our "leaders" to even talk about it.

Republican seem to be loathe to admit any failings with guns and I mention them specifically because they have ALL the control and there will no hearings or action without their support

[Bucco]

Good try but your PBS link only addresses the first tip FBI got in which they could not find out who he was, the 2nd tip was from someone who knew Cruz, where he lived, threats made etc etc.

Cruz committed a Felony under Florida state law, so federal law not relevant, many students in many states have been arrested and prosecuted for making school shooting threats. FBI and LEOs blew it and could have stopped a massacre.

So you advocate shutting down the FBI and erasing that defense from the country ?

Or do you advocate a public flogging ?

Or maybe what ????

They go it....they admitted an error was made and did it without calling anyone names....the began their investigation immediately and will take action. If other government agencies and people would do as much we would be much better off

What do you want ?

And do you completely exonerate the local police who visited that house something like 38/39 times over the years ? Police, including the FBI who you feel such disdain for, have a rough job.....lots of tough decisions to make. I blame the shooter for the deaths

[graciegirl]

So you advocate shutting down the FBI and erasing that defense from the country ?

Or do you advocate a public flogging ?

Or maybe what ????

They go it....they admitted an error was made and did it without calling anyone names....the began their investigation immediately and will take action. If other government agencies and people would do as much we would be much better off

What do you want ?

What a response........... AND....I don't think public meetings have ever solved a damn thing. This is back to one of your many posts. It is hard to keep up with you.

I don't care what the FBI does, I certainly don't idolize them as a group or vilify them either. We have had some holes shot in our previous beliefs in those G men we so counted on...but the FBI... we could use some retired ones, it would be nice to have someone who has had a life long carry permit to possibly guard our kids in school.

It gets real tricky when some are suggesting all people with mental illness need to do this or that. That is what is hard. WHO is sick enough to be dangerous? Should mental health counselors be designated reporters? Or are they now?

[Bucco]

What a response........... AND....I don't think public meetings have ever solved a damn thing.

I don't care what the FBI does, I certainly don't idolize them as a group or vilify them either. We have had some holes shot in our previous beliefs in those G men we so counted on...but the FBI... we could use some retired ones, it would be nice to have someone who has had a life long carry permit to possibly guard our kids in school.

It gets real tricky when some are suggesting all people with mental illness need to do this or that. That is what is hard. WHO is sick enough to be dangerous?

Got it....screw it and the FBI. No hearings, no nothing. Just attack the FBI or some other agency instead of the guy who killed these kids. Next time a kid gets shot down, tell them we are sorry, but hearings never work (although factually those based on the country and not politics ACTUALLY DO WORK)

Not sure who in government service you idolize but if it is not the FBI, I am sure curious as they have a record of service that cannot be dismissed by you or others. They take attacks and simply continue to do their jobs. One year of attacks, one networks life work and they still continue to tick..the detail on the indictments of the Russians was awesome and scary but that does not seem to count. AND we have yet to hear a factual critique

And as we try to be honest....NO HOLES have been punched in the FBI....numerous, almost daily charges and that is it....ALL of them in the political spectrum, NONE...NONE ever shown to be true in any way except to those on a certain spectrum of politics, BUT NEVER EVER shown to be factual.

And amid daily terrible personal attacks on them, knowing they did nothing wrong, they continue to march on and protect us.

When something factual about them is produced, as it appears the error in not calling Miami, they stand up tall and admit it openly.

Tell me what other government person does that ?

Whomever you idolize in this country, simply compare their resumes. I do resent your implication about we need some FBI to retire which is a political mantra of course, and I challenge you to tell us why they should retire but do it with facts, and not the vicious personal innuendo we hear every night and when we check twitter

[fw102807]

I think this post has finally gotten beat down into the ground I hope they have the hearings. I hope they do more to protect the victims and less restrictions in investigating the suspected perpetrators. Somebody correctly asked what the FBI could legally do. They tread a fine line between investigating these suspects and violating their rights. I am just depressed right now since I have a young grandson just starting out in school and it should be a safe place.

[ColdNoMore]

I think this post has finally gotten beat down into the ground I hope they have the hearings. I hope they do more to protect the victims and less restrictions in investigating the suspected perpetrators. Somebody correctly asked what the FBI could legally do. They tread a fine line between investigating these suspects and violating their rights. I am just depressed right now since I have a young grandson just starting out in school and it should be a safe place.

:agree:

[DeanFL]

I'm the OP. Fascinating how the ToTV folks here took part in a lively discussion - with few antagonistic offshoots to politics or flogging others. A few more of my thoughts after post #1.

1. I am completely sick re these latest events. Personally enough is enough and SOMETHING substantial (whatever can help) MUST be done. These events simply should not continue on in this country. They will NEVER be eradicated, but that should not stop sane caring people to come together and put forth changes.

2. The horses ARE out of the barn, but this continual supply of easily available heavy armament and ammo can be making matters worse. Gun control will never be passed but some type of civil enforcement should be attained. Not a gun owner, but I have always said that if we lived in Orlando or such, I would be... RE gun control - remember the 'bump stock' from Vegas shooter... what happened in DC on that? zip.

3. Imagine if gun control was tightened and limited. A crazed person could simply run a truck down the sidewalk near a school and wipe out 20 kids as well. Or a box cutter at school - carnage too. Crazed will tend to adjust the weapons of choice.

4. Mental issues - a tough nut to crack. What level is enough to hold and question or put away. Is a voiced threat enough? Something must be done to ID the potential crazed, but laws get in the way.

5. Say something... yep. Need a very effective process by law agencies to address this. Admin and funding will be roadblocks.

6. Armed guards at schools, ID cards etc. Nothing will ever be perfect, or even close - but we must have impediments in place.

7. Social media and extreme gaming. The way our society is going this will be a tough nut to crack. No easy answers.

Since 2001 we have done a pretty OK job airport security-wise in the US - but we have been mighty lucky as well. We need international experts (like from Israel) to assess and assist. Anything we do in the country to bolster school security etc will cost bundles of $$$. With all our other budget issues, will our determination stick?

But I do like hearing that THIS school shooting may be the tipping point and pressures on our leaders/lawmakers will be strong.

[EPutnam1863]

Re: killers...if there is a will, there is a way - in spite of the safety measures we undertake.

[fw102807]

Re: killers...if there is a will, there is a way - in spite of the safety measures we undertake.

True but we still have to try. It should definitely not be that easy.

[Schaumburger]

I'm the OP. Fascinating how the ToTV folks here took part in a lively discussion - with few antagonistic offshoots to politics or flogging others. A few more of my thoughts after post #1.

1. I am completely sick re these latest events. Personally enough is enough and SOMETHING substantial (whatever can help) MUST be done. These events simply should not continue on in this country. They will NEVER be eradicated, but that should not stop sane caring people to come together and put forth changes.

2. The horses ARE out of the barn, but this continual supply of easily available heavy armament and ammo can be making matters worse. Gun control will never be passed but some type of civil enforcement should be attained. Not a gun owner, but I have always said that if we lived in Orlando or such, I would be... RE gun control - remember the 'bump stock' from Vegas shooter... what happened in DC on that? zip.

3. Imagine if gun control was tightened and limited. A crazed person could simply run a truck down the sidewalk near a school and wipe out 20 kids as well. Or a box cutter at school - carnage too. Crazed will tend to adjust the weapons of choice.

4. Mental issues - a tough nut to crack. What level is enough to hold and question or put away. Is a voiced threat enough? Something must be done to ID the potential crazed, but laws get in the way.

5. Say something... yep. Need a very effective process by law agencies to address this. Admin and funding will be roadblocks.

6. Armed guards at schools, ID cards etc. Nothing will ever be perfect, or even close - but we must have impediments in place.

7. Social media and extreme gaming. The way our society is going this will be a tough nut to crack. No easy answers.

Since 2001 we have done a pretty OK job airport security-wise in the US - but we have been mighty lucky as well. We need international experts (like from Israel) to assess and assist. Anything we do in the country to bolster school security etc will cost bundles of $$$. With all our other budget issues, will our determination stick?

But I do like hearing that THIS school shooting may be the tipping point and pressures on our leaders/lawmakers will be strong.

I would like to think the school shooting in Parkland is the tipping point, but I don't know. If the 27 students and teachers murdered at Sandy Hook Elementary School in 2012 couldn't spur action, will this be able to?

As I told one of my coworkers who moved to the US a few years ago, it wasn't always this way in the schools in this country. When I was in elementary and high school in the 1960's-1970's, fearing that one of your classmates would shoot up the school was not even thought of.

Unfortunately, I think it's not a matter of if a similar situation at a school will occur again, but when and where, and that really saddens me.

[Taltarzac725]

I would like to think the school shooting in Parkland is the tipping point, but I don't know. If the 27 students and teachers murdered at Sandy Hook Elementary School in 2012 couldn't spur action, will this be able to?

As I told one of my coworkers who moved to the US a few years ago, it wasn't always this way in the schools in this country. When I was in elementary and high school in the 1960's-1970's, fearing that one of your classmates would shoot up the school was not even thought of.

Unfortunately, I think it's not a matter of if a similar situation at a school will occur again, but when and where, and that really saddens me.

The kids want to change things and seem determined to do so. Unfortunately, there will be more shootings but this will only make these children more determined to stop things as much as they can.

Many seem to want to help them too.

Does a Celebration of Life for a 14 year old make much sense??? That is what a pair of Villagers grandparents are attending or will within a week or so.

[DeanFL]

SOMETHING must be done. Some measures must be taken by our leaders. Pressure must be put on them to address key issues. Complacency and doing nothing will ensure continuance of these horrible events.

I am heartened that some of our youth has spoken and perhaps will create a groundswell of pressure. It seems to me that this age 15-30 population has the will and energy to organize and put extreme pressure on the folks in charge to actually make changes. They will be/are a large voting group as well - which is key. I personally am not one that condones walkouts, marches etc - BUT... whatever it takes. This issue will never be completely erased from our open free society, but doing NOTHING ensures it can and will continue.

Hope they don't just focus solely on guns - but ALL the elements that impact this scourge of violence. Here's a few paragraphs from an interesting article>



"We are the students, we are the victims, we are change, fight gun violence now!" student organizers wrote for one of the planned events. "High School students across the U.S.A, the way to fight back is here. There has been too much complacency on the part of politicians when it comes to gun violence. The time to act is now!"

We will be the last mass shooting': Florida students want to be tipping point in gun debate


The first event is planned for March, 14, which would mark one month since the South Florida shooting. It's being planned in part by the Women's March organizers to protest inaction from lawmakers on gun-control legislation.

"We are not safe at school. We are not safe in our cities and towns," the Facebook event reads. "Congress must take meaningful action to keep us safe and pass federal gun reform legislation that address the public health crisis of gun violence."

The event calls for students and teachers to walk out of their schools at 10 a.m. local time for 17 minutes, to honor the 17 lives lost in Florida.

Another walkout is planned on April 20, which will mark the 19th year since the Columbine High School massacre in Colorado that left 13 dead.

[Taltarzac725]

There is an interesting article in the other site about a man who lives in the Villages and was a school administrator when a flight with 16 kids and their 5 adult chaperones went down. They were from his school.

His nightmare is not due to a deranged killer, but from the explosion and crash of Trans World Airlines’ Flight 800 over the Atlantic, about 12 minutes after takeoff from New York’s Kennedy International Airport, July 17, 1996. All 230 people on-board perished in America’s third-deadliest aviation accident.

As many know my high school English teacher's daughter, Michelle Mitchell, was murdered on my birthday (2-24) when I was a Junior at Earl Wooster High School in Reno, Nevada in 1976. I was a favorite of the teacher and that family gave me very small Memorial Scholarship in her name. I had been taking correspondence courses to skip my Senior year so I used that small scholarship at the University of Nevada, Reno for my Freshmen year. You never get over traumatic experiences especially ones that are repeated in the media for years. And the murder occurred on my birthday which also made and makes it very hard to just push aside.

I did get four degrees though and helped maybe 40 prisoners with their legal matters as a student then Student Co-Director at Legal Assistance to Minnesota Prisoners (LAMP) Minnesota Correctional Facility--Stillwater so this baggage did not slow me down all that much. It actually made me more determined to be objective about things and dig into matters as well as I could given the resources available. Law school trained me to be critical. And try to look at things from many perspectives. I was at the U of MN while in LAMP.

The community's need for closure did lead to the wrongful conviction of a paranoid schizophrenic woman, Cathy Woods, who had confessed falsely to the murder of Michelle Mitchell. She did at this at the time to get a better room in the mental institution she was in located in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. This was around 1979.

I had immersed myself in reading Philosophy and History as well as great literature during my stay at the University of Nevada, Reno while getting BAs in each of these.

I have been contacting through Facebook the last four years or so some of the former students from Wooster High School from around this time and some have prospered.

I hope that the students affected by the Valentine's Day shooting can use this terrible tragedy to make the changes needed. The solutions probably will be very complicated if they are to work but I hope that the wisdom you see in many Villagers can be applied.

[billethkid]

As long as political identity continues to be the priority, there will be no more done after this shooting fades, than there has been for all the others.

The political agendas, special interests and minority priorities are all stacked against making any progress.
Until or unless that changes, there will be no progress made. It is the elephant in the room that everybody pretends is not there.

[Madelaine Amee]

As long as political identity continues to be the priority, there will be no more done after this shooting fades, than there has been for all the others.

The political agendas, special interests and minority priorities are all stacked against making any progress.
Until or unless that changes, there will be no progress made. It is the elephant in the room that everybody pretends is not there.

:agree: Politics and money $$$$$$$$$

[Bucco]

When you look at ALL our politicians news media I mean all everyone.
They set no example for today's youth.
They conduct themselves like bullies with demeaning and demoralizing conduct and when an incident of this magnitude occurs they say .
They look at each other like deer in a headlight and say
What could possibly make an individual act in such a manor ?

THANK YOU.

Glad someone agrees with me.

We live in a time where being mean spirited is considered a good thing, where being immoral and offensive is defended.

We attack, not listen and be empathetic and appreciative. We simply will not acknowledge bad behavior. This thread has shown that side far too many times. And reading the indictments against the Russians makes the point....they know how we are and play to it and we keep on allowing it.

This is our society now, and I see no movement other than it getting worse after the last 24 hours.

Kids learn from listening and watching and they will emulate.

These kids are now demonstrating but my guess it is falling on deaf ears. It does no serve our elected officials to be empathetic. It is a terrible terrible tragedy and as I was told clearly yesterday on here.....making our elected officials speak up in a public hearing will do not good.

There are so many sides to this story...the fall down by the FBI, the fall down by various Florida agencies, by the school officials but all we hear is the politics of it.

With the discussion on news yesterday, I did a quick survey of my own last night and this morning....on network doing montages of the victims....on network discussing the politics of gun control and one networks sounded like RT.

Our children deserve so much better....so very much better.

May God protect all our future leaders who today are children...may they shed the bad actions of those passing them selves as role models and find a role model that will lead them to good and positive things. I always prefer to see the good and those kids speaking on behalf of the others are potential leaders are GOOD. May they find a way to turn this tragedy into a good thing

[Taltarzac725]

As long as political identity continues to be the priority, there will be no more done after this shooting fades, than there has been for all the others.

The political agendas, special interests and minority priorities are all stacked against making any progress.
Until or unless that changes, there will be no progress made. It is the elephant in the room that everybody pretends is not there.

Parkland is a rather well off place from what I gather that has people with a lot of connections. I still think this will be an important development with the kids, teachers and others getting involved with marches. And it looks like it is international thanks to Facebook, Tweeter and whatever the kids in 2018 are using to communicate with one another. They seem to find something new quite often.

The lobbyists are always a problem. But then something happens like with the tobacco lobby. Tobacco politics - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tobacco_politics) They have had quiet victories though after various defeats.

[graciegirl]

Giving your views to other people and marching never changes a damn thing other than ****ing off people who will never agree with you.. You can be an example of your beliefs and you can vote. Oh, And you can decide where to spend your money.

[Bucco]

Giving your views to other people and marching never changes a damn thing other than ****ing off people who will never agree with you.. You can be an example of your beliefs and you can vote. Oh, And you can decide where to spend your money.

Those who now have equal rights (like using bathrooms etc) or women who now can vote are two quick examples that show how this country has had marches and it successfully worked.

This is not a kingdom.

And if we find a way, or even just DISCUSS how to protect our precious voting, that might help, but those who can call it fake.

Exchanging views, and protesting with free speech USED TO BE SOMETHING REAL AMERICANS treasured.

[Taltarzac725]

How Marches in Washington Have Shaped America - The New York Times (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/21/us/marches-in-washington-american-history.html)

These Parkland kids will try marches and if that does not work, something else.

Marches have played a very important role in US society.

[Taltarzac725]

We will see if there is any change from the efforts of the Parkland kids, their teachers and I assume the many celebrities and politicians who will get involved with this. The media will also play a very important role on how they cover these marches.

Marching is probably one of the most important rights of the average American.

[Bucco]

Giving your views to other people and marching never changes a damn thing other than ****ing off people who will never agree with you.. You can be an example of your beliefs and you can vote. Oh, And you can decide where to spend your money.

Got it...you said it twice.

Do not express your views....do not march or express those views in public.

Voting is ok, but that is a bit tainted by a foreign government interfering in that process.

I think these kids, and grieving parents have a right to "express their views to other people" and certainly to march and utilize free speech

[DeanFL]

As I said before, I am NOT a proponent of marches or boycotts... BUT in this case... I DO agree that ANYTHING to get our 'Leaders" attention to act, hopefully in a righteous manner, will be a positive thing. I think that this will gather huge momentum among impressionable <20 youth and 20-30 age group, and spread to colleges as well. And kids will probably implore to their parents, and build onward. Bottom line - this could grow to a huge VOTING block in 2018 and 2020 and the DC, State, and Local folks will HAVE TO take notice and do something. Hopefully NOT simply ongoing investigations, committees, meetings, and delays.
We already know 3 important facts from this event>
1. The FBI requires a systemic improvement and closed-loop systems for "say something" escalated to them. They CANNOT allow 'slip-thru-the-cracks and errors.
2. Same as #1 for Schools, Local, and State agencies.
3. He bought the weapon LEGALLY even with suspect background/behaviors.

I do not see this one slipping away from the forefront as in the past. momentum will/should continue to ensure some proper action to close holes in the system. Again, noting will be 100%, but minimize the chances of copycats et al.

[graciegirl]

Got it...you said it twice.

Do not express your views....do not march or express those views in public.

Voting is ok, but that is a bit tainted by a foreign government interfering in that process.

I think these kids, and grieving parents have a right to "express their views to other people" and certainly to march and utilize free speech

DO NOT PARAPHRASE WHAT I WROTE!

I do not believe that any post on this thread has changed anyone's mind or their views about anything. It may have reinforced views they had and made them more outraged about the short sightedness of others. I think marching makes the marcher feel better but it doesn't sway the non marcher.

The freedom of speech is important and sacred to all of us. The Pen is mightier than the sword. Part of grieving is anger. For many thinkers, who and what to be angry at is the issue. One person caused this horrible thing to happen and I know not one person who would have enabled him.

[Bucco]

As I said before, I am NOT a proponent of marches or boycotts... BUT in this case... I DO agree that ANYTHING to get our 'Leaders" attention to act, hopefully in a righteous manner, will be a positive thing. I think that this will gather huge momentum among impressionable <20 youth and 20-30 age group, and spread to colleges as well. And kids will probably implore to their parents, and build onward. Bottom line - this could grow to a huge VOTING block in 2018 and 2020 and the DC, State, and Local folks will HAVE TO take notice and do something. Hopefully NOT simply ongoing investigations, committees, meetings, and delays.
We already know 3 important facts from this event>
1. The FBI requires a systemic improvement and closed-loop systems for "say something" escalated to them. They CANNOT allow 'slip-thru-the-crack's and errors.
2. Same as #1 for Schools, Local, and State agencies.
3. He bought the weapon LEGALLY even with suspect background/behaviors.

I do not see this one slipping away from the forefront as in the past. momentum will/should continue to ensure some proper action to close pen holes in the system. Again, noting will be 100%, but minimize the chances of copycats et al.

Good post

[fw102807]

I have nothing against peaceful demonstrations but the way they have gone lately is sideways and end up with violence and destruction. There now has to be a large police presence at each. Some of the major contributors have started threatening to withdraw donations and if enough people contacted their legislators and expressed their views it would be far more effective. We somehow have to make it painful for our politicians to do nothing and worrisome that they will not get re-elected.

[Bucco]

DO NOT PARAPHRASE WHAT I WROTE!

I do not believe that any post on this thread has changed anyone's mind or their views about anything. It may have reinforced views they had and made them more outraged about the short sightedness of others. I think marching makes the marcher feel better but it doesn't sway the non marcher.

The freedom of speech is important and sacred to all of us. The Pen is mightier than the sword. Part of grieving is anger. For many thinkers, who and what to be angry at is the issue. One person caused this horrible thing to happen and I know not one person who would have enabled him.

I hope expression of views of national or international issues are simply not aimed at TOTV for some reason other than the reason for the forum.

Marching has a tremendous effect, and always had through history. Ignoring them has an effect also.

Sorry if I misunderstood...I certainly did not paraphrase anything you said.

One thing I agree with is the vote. I hope SOON, we will "counterattack" the attack on our voting by Russians. Reading the indictments, which are simply a precursor to many more, was chilling. Voting is our way of showing our preferences.

But it is in deep jeopardy because, while 99% of this country (elected and non elected) agree we need to protect it, those who count don't think there was a problem. Thus, while younare correct, it is the way, nothing is being done at all, or even being discussed, to protect it.

The children should march, protest, scream and whatever. Someday...someone will assign responsibility and our leaders will openly be required to take a stand on guns, mental health, and things like protecting our country from foreign powers interfering with that voting you speak of. Now we have nothing but Twitter and daily doses.

This gun issue is not new, just ignored. Same goes for many others, including mental health. I was honored to play a role in the Mental Health/Mental Retardation movement in Pennsylvania which resulted in the act pass in 1966, and we still don't get it.

I will not believe our country is numb to all of this.

Let those children raise hell

[fw102807]

If you read the indictments, and every American should, opposing rallies arranged in the same place at the same time, and duped Americans went along.

I fear for this country....we are being played and being split


Exactly, this is why I fear for the safety of these kids since there are so many mentally unstable individuals wanting to do harm and staging counter rallies is a fine way to do it. People get fueled by the crowd mentality and things get out of hand.

[Bucco]

Exactly, this is why I fear for the safety of these kids since there are so many mentally unstable individuals wanting to do harm and staging counter rallies is a fine way to do it. People get fueled by the crowd mentality and things get out of hand.

You make a valid point.

It takes guts to be "out there" for something you believe in.

I just want my country to wake up and admit we are and have been under attack and stop helping those who are successfully tearing us apart from afar.

We sometimes seem to use their own tactics on our own country.
Look, it's not just me...the world sees it. This country is on edge almost daily....one side says nothing is happening and attacks those who feel we are under attack and who want to defend us,
.

That has an effect on the people who live in this country.

But the issue are these children and I think they need to be heard.

I also add, and mostly criticized for, saying it needs to be PUBLIC hearings....we and they need to hear from people not reading from scripts and hopefully capture how they really feel.

If the NRA is this powerful, we need to bottle that power. I do not own a gun....I do not understand guns much, and "have no dog in the fight", but these kids and parents have a right to ask people questions and get answers.

If not, clock ticks until the next person sneaks under the State, FBI, etc net which is largely and thankfully successful in stopping these things , and away we will go with more of what I am beginning to think is intentional dragging of feet

[cologal]

I like a movement that has started after this shooting.

People are sending checks to the politicians which are made out with THOUGHTS AND PRAYERS instead of money.

[ColdNoMore]

Those who now have equal rights (like using bathrooms etc) or women who now can vote are two quick examples that show how this country has had marches and it successfully worked.

This is not a kingdom.

And if we find a way, or even just DISCUSS how to protect our precious voting, that might help, but those who can call it fake.

Exchanging views, and protesting with free speech USED TO BE SOMETHING REAL AMERICANS treasured.

Might I also add, that no one has the right...to not be ****ed off.

And your point about how peaceful marches have righted wrongs in this country a number of times...is dead on. :ho:

[Madelaine Amee]

I like a movement that has started after this shooting.

People are sending checks to the politicians which are made out with THOUGHTS AND PRAYERS instead of money.

Oh I would like to shake her hand: Quote:

Amid endless calls for “thoughts and prayers” instead of legislative action in response to mass shootings, a woman in Michigan decided to take matters into her own hands.

After Wednesday's mass shooting in Parkland, Florida, Fern Malila mailed a letter and a check in the amount of "thoughts and prayers" to Representative Jack Bergman, a Michigan legislator.

“Dear Rep. Bergman,” she wrote, “since you and your colleagues in Congress seem to feel that this is the solution to mass murder, please accept this contribution.”

Maybe, just maybe, we could start a letter writing campaign along those lines!

[fw102807]

Might I also add, that no one has the right...to not be ****ed off.

And your point about how peaceful marches have righted wrongs in this country a number of times...is dead on. :ho:

Yes peaceful marches have changed things in the past but things are very different now. I am as ****ed off as anyone but I am also fearful of large gatherings.

[fw102807]

Oh I would like to shake her hand: Quote:

Amid endless calls for “thoughts and prayers” instead of legislative action in response to mass shootings, a woman in Michigan decided to take matters into her own hands.

After Wednesday's mass shooting in Parkland, Florida, Fern Malila mailed a letter and a check in the amount of "thoughts and prayers" to Representative Jack Bergman, a Michigan legislator.

“Dear Rep. Bergman,” she wrote, “since you and your colleagues in Congress seem to feel that this is the solution to mass murder, please accept this contribution.”

Maybe, just maybe, we could start a letter writing campaign along those lines!

Love it

[graciegirl]

Most of us use the term "thoughts and prayers" kindly, as an expression of understanding and an outreach of love and compassion. We have all used it at a time when there are no words to use that will alleviate the grief and pain another is suffering.

I am afraid that it isn't the thoughts that are now being held in disparagement, but the prayers.

And that is troubling and heartbreaking for many sincere and good people who are innocent of any wrong doing and have no intentions of harm.

[fw102807]

Most of us use the term "thoughts and prayers" kindly, as an expression of understanding and an outreach of love and compassion. We have all used it at a time when there are no words to use that will alleviate the grief and pain another is suffering.

I am afraid that it isn't the thoughts that are now being held in disparagement, but the prayers.

And that is troubling and heartbreaking for many sincere and good people who are innocent of any wrong doing and have no intentions of harm.

No one is questioning this but I believe what this woman did was send a symbolic message that we will no longer support legislators who refuse to take action.

[Madelaine Amee]

You will not change anyone's mind by sending a check written out to "thoughts and prayers" but you will **** off a lot of people.

I totally disagree with you - of course! Who would be p****d off by sending such checks?

If this became a National movement I believe enough politicians in this country would sit up and take notice! There is real power in people when they band together to get something done - you only have to look back in history to the Freedom Marchers to see how much difference can be made. There is an anger in this country that I have never seen before.

The only thing better would be using the Voting Booth to make ones feelings known.

[fw102807]

You can vote.

You can decide where to spend your money.


Yes and what she is doing is telling her legislators that she will not send them money or vote for them until they do their job. These politicians need to know that we are unhappy with them and their lack of action and that their chances of re-election are not good if they do not do something.

[graciegirl]

Yes and what she is doing is telling her legislators that she will not send them money or vote for them until they do their job. These politicians need to know that we are unhappy with them and their lack of action and that their chances of re-election are not good if they do not do something.

Some do not blame the legislators. Some think the shooter was to blame. Or the shooters mother. Or genetics that caused his illness. Or the FBI who didn't act on the tip.

I willsay it again. Minds are not changed by arguing and fighting. Things in this country are changed by voting. Or how we spend our money.

[Bucco]

Some do not blame the legislators. Some think the shooter was to blame. Or the shooters mother. Or genetics that caused his illness. Or the FBI who didn't act on the tip.

I willsay it again. Minds are not changed by arguing and fighting. Things in this country are changed by voting. Or how we spend our money.

The blame is the shooter, nobody else....To even venture to, or to list as an option the FBI is just plain ludicrious and very political

[Boomer]

Some do not blame the legislators. Some think the shooter was to blame. Or the shooters mother. Or genetics that caused his illness. Or the FBI who didn't act on the tip.

I willsay it again. Minds are not changed by arguing and fighting. Things in this country are changed by voting. Or how we spend our money.


Actually, Gracie, most of what you say here is tragically true.

But I would say “arguing” with some people will not change their minds. There are those who cannot bear to acknowledge reality because then they would have to deal with it so it is easier to allow themselves to be pawns. But I am seeing others who are waking up, looking around, and paying attention — and looking between the lines.

And — about that “how we spend our money” thing you said — right, right , right. But, you see, those young people who have witnessed unspeakable horror don’t have any money. Lobbyists have money. Lots and lots of money. And money talks.

But, for the first time, in nearly two decades of school shootings — the slaughter of innocents — I am hopeful because I have seen those thinking, articulate young people commit themselves to the future of our country. They might not have money, but they have power — and they cannot be bought.

And, yeah, this old high school teacher stands beside those kids.

[graciegirl]

Actually, Gracie, most of what you say here is tragically true.

But I would say “arguing” with some people will not change their minds. There are those who cannot bear to acknowledge reality because then they would have to deal with it so it is easier to allow themselves to be pawns. But I am seeing others who are waking up, looking around, and paying attention, and looking between the lines.

And — about that “how we spend our money” thing you said — right, right , right. But, you see, those young people who have witnessed unspeakable horror don’t have any money. Lobbyists have money. Lots and lots of money. And, yeah, money talks.

But, for the first time, in nearly two decades of school shootings — the slaughter of innocents — I am hopeful because I have seen those thinking, articulate young people commit themselves to the future of our country. They might not have money, but they have power — and they cannot be bought.

And, yeah, this old high school teacher stands beside those kids.

WE ALL STAND BESIDE THOSE KIDS. THAT IS THE POINT. We each BELIEVE WE have the answer and think we are changing other people's minds. WE ARE NOT. We each have one vote. All we do is aggravate each other. None of us killed those children and none of us want any more dead from guns, knives, airplanes, bombs, poison in our water, thugs, thieves, or mentally sick people. I don't think teaching young children to hate in any form is good stuff.

[ColdNoMore]

Actually, Gracie, most of what you say here is tragically true.

But I would say “arguing” with some people will not change their minds. There are those who cannot bear to acknowledge reality because then they would have to deal with it so it is easier to allow themselves to be pawns. But I am seeing others who are waking up, looking around, and paying attention — and looking between the lines.

And — about that “how we spend our money” thing you said — right, right , right. But, you see, those young people who have witnessed unspeakable horror don’t have any money. Lobbyists have money. Lots and lots of money. And money talks.

But, for the first time, in nearly two decades of school shootings — the slaughter of innocents — I am hopeful because I have seen those thinking, articulate young people commit themselves to the future of our country.

They might not have money, but they have power — and they cannot be bought.

And, yeah, this old high school teacher stands beside those kids.


:bigbow::bigbow:

[cologal]

Most of us use the term "thoughts and prayers" kindly, as an expression of understanding and an outreach of love and compassion. We have all used it at a time when there are no words to use that will alleviate the grief and pain another is suffering.

I am afraid that it isn't the thoughts that are now being held in disparagement, but the prayers.

And that is troubling and heartbreaking for many sincere and good people who are innocent of any wrong doing and have no intentions of harm.

Gracie, this movement is in response the Congressmen and Senators who take money from the NRA. Then when another one of these mass shooting all they say is "our thoughts and prayers". Its long past time for action in regard to the AR15.

[Kenswing]

Gracie, this movement is in response the Congressmen and Senators who take money from the NRA. Then when another one of these mass shooting all they say is "our thoughts and prayers". Its long past time for action in regard to the AR15.

Should we also take action in regard to the Mini-14?

[DeanFL]

WE ALL STAND BESIDE THOSE KIDS. THAT IS THE POINT.


In my 69 years, I have never (or wanted to) taken part in a march, boycott, public demonstration, or anything like those. Sure I have been mad about civil rights, Vietnam, corruption, etc etc. But - I let others handle (or not...) those issues.

Now, might be old age or time on my hands - if our TV Charter School formed a march or such on this issue....I would join them. I'd make my own sign -unknown what I would actually say on it...) and proudly walk along to support those kids and their families. No idea what defensive/safety measures the TV school has taken, but I would bet it's above average to others. Of course from what I read the FL Douglas HS was pretty well prepped.

I have 6.5 g-kids across the USA and they will be/are facing this tough issue every school day. I can only imagine sitting in a classroom with this on your mind. I will not simply sit on my hands if I'm made aware of a march or such. And my intent to join would be simply to be part of the force for intelligent change. And, not focusing on our school or local gvt.

[fw102807]

Gracie, this movement is in response the Congressmen and Senators who take money from the NRA. Then when another one of these mass shooting all they say is "our thoughts and prayers". Its long past time for action in regard to the AR15.

They need to do something whether it is gun control or more help for mental illness or more power for the FBI to do something about potential risks or more security in the schools or something else but they are doing nothing but wringing their hands and offering platitudes. Yes I blame the politicians that is their job.

[Carl in Tampa]

Making more laws is ineffective. Laws don't prevent crimes, they define crime and provide for punishment if the perpetrator is caught. This guy violated many laws including having a firearm on school property. Making the school a gun free zone did not stop this crime. More laws will not stop other crimes. Making it more difficult for law-abiding citizens to obtain firearms that they want to have for personal protection won't stop criminals from obtaining firearms illegally.

Limiting magazine capacity won't do anything as mags can be changed in a second or less. Banning "assault weapons" was tried and was ineffective, especially since there is no real definition of an assault weapon. Should we ban all semi-automatic weapons? That would involve banning 95% of all the guns that are out there. Then criminals would find a way to get them illegally and law-abiding citizens would be at a disadvantage.

If these killers can't get a gun legally, they will get one illegally, If they can't get a gun, they will find a way to make homemade bombs.

My solution would be to make it mandatory that all teachers, be licensed, trained and armed while at work.

It's a requirement for the police who protect us elsewhere. Why not make it a requirement for those entrusted with protecting our children?

In the case of yesterday's shooting, there was an armed officer at the opposite end of the school. There is no way for one or two officers to be everywhere and it's not often not possible for them to get to a scene in time. In this case, the shooter was familiar with the school and might have selected the location because he knew that the officer would not be close by.

I spent a significant portion of my working life administering security at the White House. I also set up temporary security measures for the President when he traveled. One of my associates was selected to design security measures at the Capitol. My organization provided the first Sky Marshals. I have spent my life working on physical security issues.

With that background, I state confidently that there is no conceivable gun control law that will prevent mass shootings or shootings in schools.

Even in the Secret Service, with physical barriers, video cameras with motion detectors, metal detectors, smoke detectors, nuclear radiation detectors, and door and window alarms, the final defense against intruders and attackers was a trained, armed person.

Thus it must be with schools. They must be enclosed by physical barriers, with access limited to identified people, who go through metal detectors. The access point must be attended by armed security personnel. Other armed personnel must be distributed through the school; they would best be school administrators and teachers who have undergone firearms training and want to be armed. Doing these things is called "hardening the target."

Even this is no guarantee against attacks. Even the White House is periodically assaulted. I have been to the scene where White House Police Officers have had to kill armed intruders.

No gun ban can be fully effective. There are too many guns of all types already in circulation to think that they can all be retrieved and destroyed. Ban a gun and its price goes up on the Black Market.

Quit thinking that a ban on high capacity magazines would help. You can argue back and forth that fewer people would be killed if the shooter had to reload more often, but keep this in mind: Sgt. York killed 25 armed German soldiers in one encounter with a bolt action rifle. And the rifle had to be reloaded after every five rounds.

Forget Australia as a model. We have about three hundred million more people than Australia, and many of those people have multiple guns. You will never get all the guns confiscated.

Don't get hung up on the AR-15. The gun used in the worst mass murder in a school in America was a Glock handgun, with multiple ordinary magazines.

In summary: Harden the target.

[graciegirl]

Gracie, this movement is in response the Congressmen and Senators who take money from the NRA. Then when another one of these mass shooting all they say is "our thoughts and prayers". Its long past time for action in regard to the AR15.

You aren't listening. I don't belong to the NRA or have a gun. But there are plenty decent citizens who do. It is too late to remove guns and probably even if there was legislation to not allow sales of weapons, the cartels would be here selling them to the thugs.

The NRA isn't to blame for these deaths. I would like the option open to buy a gun a learn how to use it if the country continues to encourage hatred. I can't run and I can't fight. I am old.

AGAIN. WHAT is realistic and what is just a lot of talk and movement is two different things. You believe that you are right. I believe that I am right. Neither of us have ever killed or thought to kill in our lives. Encouraging hatred is wrong.

[Kenswing]

I spent a significant portion of my working life administering security at the White House. I also set up temporary security measures for the President when he traveled. One of my associates was selected to design security measures at the Capitol. My organization provided the first Sky Marshals. I have spent my life working on physical security issues.

With that background, I state confidently that there is no conceivable gun control law that will prevent mass shootings or shootings in schools.

Even in the Secret Service, with physical barriers, video cameras with motion detectors, metal detectors, smoke detectors, nuclear radiation detectors, and door and window alarms, the final defense against intruders and attackers was a trained, armed person.

Thus it must be with schools. They must be enclosed by physical barriers, with access limited to identified people, who go through metal detectors. The access point must be attended by armed security personnel. Other armed personnel must be distributed through the school; they would best be school administrators and teachers who have undergone firearms training and want to be armed. Doing these things is called "hardening the target."

Even this is no guarantee against attacks. Even the White House is periodically assaulted. I have been to the scene where White House Police Officers have had to kill armed intruders.

No gun ban can be fully effective. There are too many guns of all types already in circulation to think that they can all be retrieved and destroyed. Ban a gun and its price goes up on the Black Market.

Quit thinking that a ban on high capacity magazines would help. You can argue back and forth that fewer people would be killed if the shooter had to reload more often, but keep this in mind: Sgt. York killed 25 armed German soldiers in one encounter with a bolt action rifle. And the rifle had to be reloaded after every five rounds.

Forget Australia as a model. We have about three hundred million more people than Australia, and many of those people have multiple guns. You will never get all the guns confiscated.

Don't get hung up on the AR-15. The gun used in the worst mass murder in a school in America was a Glock handgun, with multiple ordinary magazines.

In summary: Harden the target.

Amen!

[fw102807]

I spent a significant portion of my working life administering security at the White House. I also set up temporary security measures for the President when he traveled. One of my associates was selected to design security measures at the Capitol. My organization provided the first Sky Marshals. I have spent my life working on physical security issues.

With that background, I state confidently that there is no conceivable gun control law that will prevent mass shootings or shootings in schools.

Even in the Secret Service, with physical barriers, video cameras with motion detectors, metal detectors, smoke detectors, nuclear radiation detectors, and door and window alarms, the final defense against intruders and attackers was a trained, armed person.

Thus it must be with schools. They must be enclosed by physical barriers, with access limited to identified people, who go through metal detectors. The access point must be attended by armed security personnel. Other armed personnel must be distributed through the school; they would best be school administrators and teachers who have undergone firearms training and want to be armed. Doing these things is called "hardening the target."

Even this is no guarantee against attacks. Even the White House is periodically assaulted. I have been to the scene where White House Police Officers have had to kill armed intruders.

No gun ban can be fully effective. There are too many guns of all types already in circulation to think that they can all be retrieved and destroyed. Ban a gun and its price goes up on the Black Market.

Quit thinking that a ban on high capacity magazines would help. You can argue back and forth that fewer people would be killed if the shooter had to reload more often, but keep this in mind: Sgt. York killed 25 armed German soldiers in one encounter with a bolt action rifle. And the rifle had to be reloaded after every five rounds.

Forget Australia as a model. We have about three hundred million more people than Australia, and many of those people have multiple guns. You will never get all the guns confiscated.

Don't get hung up on the AR-15. The gun used in the worst mass murder in a school in America was a Glock handgun, with multiple ordinary magazines.

In summary: Harden the target.

I'm fine with that I just want to see them do something.

[Sandtrap328]

There is no need for citizens to own AR-15 rifles. They are not hunting guns.

[Carl in Tampa]

There is no need for citizens to own AR-15 rifles. They are not hunting guns.

You show your ignorance of the facts. Some states prohibit their use to hunt deer, thinking the projectile carries too little energy for a sure kill. Other states do not.

In addition, they are often equipped with telescopic sights and used as "varmint guns." (Coyotes are one of the frequently targeted varmints.)

And there is a whole class of people who use them to simply punch holes in paper. Target shooting has a long history.

[ColdNoMore]

There is no need for citizens to own AR-15 rifles. They are not hunting guns.

Florida School Shooting: Why Civilians Started Buying AR-15s | Time (http://time.com/5162573/ar-15-history-mass-shootings/)

This semiautomatic version of the U.S. military’s M-16 infantry rifle and similar weapons have been used in most of the deadliest mass shootings in the last decade, including the one at Sandy Hook Elementary School. In some states like Florida, they’re easier to buy than a handgun.

[Abby10]

I spent a significant portion of my working life administering security at the White House. I also set up temporary security measures for the President when he traveled. One of my associates was selected to design security measures at the Capitol. My organization provided the first Sky Marshals. I have spent my life working on physical security issues.

With that background, I state confidently that there is no conceivable gun control law that will prevent mass shootings or shootings in schools.

Even in the Secret Service, with physical barriers, video cameras with motion detectors, metal detectors, smoke detectors, nuclear radiation detectors, and door and window alarms, the final defense against intruders and attackers was a trained, armed person.

Thus it must be with schools. They must be enclosed by physical barriers, with access limited to identified people, who go through metal detectors. The access point must be attended by armed security personnel. Other armed personnel must be distributed through the school; they would best be school administrators and teachers who have undergone firearms training and want to be armed. Doing these things is called "hardening the target."

Even this is no guarantee against attacks. Even the White House is periodically assaulted. I have been to the scene where White House Police Officers have had to kill armed intruders.

No gun ban can be fully effective. There are too many guns of all types already in circulation to think that they can all be retrieved and destroyed. Ban a gun and its price goes up on the Black Market.

Quit thinking that a ban on high capacity magazines would help. You can argue back and forth that fewer people would be killed if the shooter had to reload more often, but keep this in mind: Sgt. York killed 25 armed German soldiers in one encounter with a bolt action rifle. And the rifle had to be reloaded after every five rounds.

Forget Australia as a model. We have about three hundred million more people than Australia, and many of those people have multiple guns. You will never get all the guns confiscated.

Don't get hung up on the AR-15. The gun used in the worst mass murder in a school in America was a Glock handgun, with multiple ordinary magazines.

In summary: Harden the target.

Thank you, Carl. Your wisdom and experience are always appreciated by many of us on TOTV.