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View Full Version : Why are the taxpayers, and not the developer, paying for the expansion of the village


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Velvet
10-06-2019, 11:38 AM
The strategy seems to be working quite well.

Advogado
10-06-2019, 12:29 PM
There are those who hate the Developer and the VHA. There are those who hate the POA. I think they create a balance in all things TV. Learn from both and draw your own conclusions.
I would not have a major problem with the Villages Homeowners Advocates if it would just change its name to: Villages-Developer Advocates. Its silence on the Developer's offloading his infrastructure costs on Sumter County taxpayers is deafening.

PrudentLifer
10-06-2019, 12:47 PM
Personally, I don't care if my taxes go up 300 bucks. Life sucks ya know. My challenge is timing this just right so I unload my house near it's peak, then move to an area which won't be as sensitive to the impending baby buster price decline. At that point I'll kick back. Too many people are getting their panties in a ruffle about a few bucks a year. Think how you'll feel down the road living in the worlds largest retirement shanty town. Not this guy.


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jellybeanrt
10-06-2019, 01:37 PM
As we do not have a Mayor in the Villages, can someone tell me how we can have commissioners in the Villages. ?

PrudentLifer
10-06-2019, 01:38 PM
As we do not have a Mayor in the Villages, can someone tell me how we can have commissioners in the Villages. ?



Village Community Development Districts (https://www.districtgov.org/)

Sumter County, FL - Official Website | Official Website (https://sumtercountyfl.gov/)

"The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears..."
George Orwell

CWGUY
10-06-2019, 03:46 PM
:ohdear: As I posted before "They have nothing to worry about.... their jobs are safe!" :popcorn:

I mean think about it..... how do you vote out a commissioner if you don't know you have one? :shrug:

OrangeBlossomBaby
10-06-2019, 07:51 PM
It is my understanding ( from an earlier post)that when the County gave the green light to continue building it was with the understanding that only if the County ( thus the tax payers) paid for all the road construction and road improvements that were needed. Thus the tax increase. The County probably doing the math with the increase knew they would be paid back big time with the additional tax dollars plus more commercial properties coming in time bringing their tax dollars also. Think it was a win win for both the County & The Developer plus ALL the jobs available to the trades performing the work. JMO

...and when the work is done, ALL of those people performing the work will be out of work, and collecting unemployment, and not paying taxes at all. Income tax? Nope. Property tax? Nope, they'll rent, so no property tax at all. Seasonal people don't buy homes in the places they are hired to perform seasonal work. They rent, and pay zero property taxes.

Wavy Chips
10-06-2019, 08:06 PM
It is my understanding ( from an earlier post)that when the County gave the green light to continue building it was with the understanding that only if the County ( thus the tax payers) paid for all the road construction and road improvements that were needed. Thus the tax increase. The County probably doing the math with the increase knew they would be paid back big time with the additional tax dollars plus more commercial properties coming in time bringing their tax dollars also. Think it was a win win for both the County & The Developer plus ALL the jobs available to the trades performing the work. JMO
The developer bluffed the county and won. If the county said no to paying for the roads/improvements, do you really think they would have walked away from the project? Hardly, they would have still moved forward, albeit maybe with the same or altered plan. I give the developer credit. They took a shot and won. Sumpter county has weak, unsophisticated commissioners and the taxpayers are paying the price.

JoMar
10-06-2019, 08:14 PM
Yawn

Polar Bear
10-06-2019, 08:50 PM
Yawn
Finally. A spot-on post that sums up this thread perfectly. :)

manaboutown
10-06-2019, 09:17 PM
The developer bluffed the county and won. If the county said no to paying for the roads/improvements, do you really think they would have walked away from the project? Hardly, they would have still moved forward, albeit maybe with the same or altered plan. I give the developer credit. They took a shot and won. Sumpter county has weak, unsophisticated commissioners and the taxpayers are paying the price.

Or commissioners affiliated with the developer...

Advogado
10-06-2019, 09:47 PM
The developer bluffed the county and won. If the county said no to paying for the roads/improvements, do you really think they would have walked away from the project? Hardly, they would have still moved forward, albeit maybe with the same or altered plan. I give the developer credit. They took a shot and won. Sumpter county has weak, unsophisticated commissioners and the taxpayers are paying the price.

When you have your own guys on the Commission, there is no need to bluff.

I think you misunderstand what happened. County Commissions are of crucial importance to any developer doing business in any county, and The Villages Developer has taken control of the Sumter County one--to his benefit and the detriment of Sumter County taxpayers.

skyking
10-06-2019, 10:11 PM
Being from Ohio I had never heard of impact fees. Doing a little research I found that they were declared illegal in 2012 by the state Supreme Court and considered a tax which had not been submitted to a vote. Roads and other infrastructure expenditures are paid for through realestate taxes as is done in Sumter County..

skip0358
10-06-2019, 10:41 PM
I never said the workers doing the construction. All I said was they were working which means their spending money while working which is good for whatever county or wherever they are living. Food. Beverages gas oil electric etc are being bought and will be for a good many years. There is NOTHING that can be done to stop what’s started at this point. Just pay the bill and hope for the best for next years tax bill. The county won higher taxes, more roads, more houses, hopefully more businesses moving in which means more commercial property and more jobs for those looking for work

Fredster
10-07-2019, 06:06 AM
Is there any state in the south that puts the needs of the worker bee ahead of its plantation owners? Florida is in transition, as a whole, eventually it will flip. But the plantation we live on, The Villages, will not.


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I sure hope The Villages won’t become like a lot of cities up north in my lifetime!

Advogado
10-07-2019, 07:10 AM
Being from Ohio I had never heard of impact fees. Doing a little research I found that they were declared illegal in 2012 by the state Supreme Court and considered a tax which had not been submitted to a vote. Roads and other infrastructure expenditures are paid for through realestate taxes as is done in Sumter County..

In Florida, Impact fees are alive and well. Go to the website of any county, and you’ll see what they are in that county.

JP
10-07-2019, 08:11 AM
Yawn

I agree and how about wah wah. Blah blah blah

PrudentLifer
10-07-2019, 08:15 AM
I sure hope The Villages won’t become like a lot of cities up north in my lifetime!



It won't. The family overseers will make sure of that.


"The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears..."
George Orwell

RosemarySoso
10-07-2019, 08:28 AM
Sounds like the Florida AG should take a look.

Fast Freddy
10-07-2019, 09:19 AM
Be pro-Active, contact them!

Altavia
10-07-2019, 10:48 AM
Do some developments that have impact fees also have Bonds?

njbchbum
10-07-2019, 11:08 AM
...and when the work is done, ALL of those people performing the work will be out of work, and collecting unemployment, and not paying taxes at all. Income tax? Nope. Property tax? Nope, they'll rent, so no property tax at all. Seasonal people don't buy homes in the places they are hired to perform seasonal work. They rent, and pay zero property taxes.

Well someone who buys those new houses will be paying the property taxes! And if they are smart landlords part of the rent that is charged will include and be set aside for payment of those property taxes for which they will be liable! No? And those renters will be contributing to the local economy. No? And unemployed workers - will they not just move on to the next area of development unless they have been able to establish roots in the area? It seems that there are many assumptions in the quoted post - no?

Goldwingnut
10-07-2019, 11:36 AM
...and when the work is done, ALL of those people performing the work will be out of work, and collecting unemployment, and not paying taxes at all. Income tax? Nope. Property tax? Nope, they'll rent, so no property tax at all. Seasonal people don't buy homes in the places they are hired to perform seasonal work. They rent, and pay zero property taxes.

The work won't be done for at least another 20 years, the workers know it and are pretty happy about the situation, job stability. I've spoken to many of the workers while out flying, some have been working with The Villages 15-20 years and love the job security that is here. And that's just the work that is foreseeable based on the land purchases that have been announced. One can be sure that there is more to come after that as long as the economy stays at least semi-stable and people keep growing older and want to retire.

And to think it all started with a trailer park and a dream...

PrudentLifer
10-07-2019, 11:50 AM
The work won't be done for at least another 20 years, the workers know it and are pretty happy about the situation, job stability. I've spoken to many of the workers while out flying, some have been working with The Villages 15-20 years and love the job security that is here. And that's just the work that is foreseeable based on the land purchases that have been announced. One can be sure that there is more to come after that as long as the economy stays at least semi-stable and people keep growing older and want to retire.

And to think it all started with a trailer park and a dream...



Not sustainable

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191007/11864e79511a532f5410bd7da7446368.jpg

Other variables such as the decimation of defined benefit plans, overall lower real wages, student loans etc. the Gen X's and Millenials, plus the current surge of returning to living in cities as a choice will weigh heavily on future retirement community construction. Here, much less age diversity within the "walls" than every other large housing area in the USA makes it much more vulnerable to the demographic swing.

I see a three year window of riding the price appreciation wave. IMHO


"The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears..."
George Orwell

Goldwingnut
10-07-2019, 12:46 PM
I guess I'm not as much of a pessimist as some.

While I may question of the thinking and actions of many of the Gen X and Millennials, many more have proven themselves quite resourcefully and levelheaded looking towards the future. While the BPK has taken a dip from time to time, the population has continued to have a net increase and will continue to for the foreseeable future, helping to ensure a continued market as word continues to spread about the many positive aspects of this community.

ColdNoMore
10-07-2019, 04:34 PM
Not sustainable

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191007/11864e79511a532f5410bd7da7446368.jpg

Immigration will make up the downturn in births, so that future 'old folks' will be supported by younger people working...just as we're being supported by them now.

PrudentLifer
10-07-2019, 04:38 PM
Immigration will make up the downturn in births, so that future 'old folks' will be supported by younger people working...just as we're being supported by them now.



Good point and yes I understand that when it comes to shoring up our SS system. What is fuzzy is how much immigration will add to the over 65 ranks over the next 20 years.


"The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears..."
George Orwell

superbat1
10-07-2019, 05:25 PM
Population in 1940 was 132 million now it is 329 million. The birth rate is down per 1000 but with so many more people the total births per year is about the same.

OrangeBlossomBaby
10-07-2019, 06:47 PM
It is my understanding ( from an earlier post)that when the County gave the green light to continue building it was with the understanding that only if the County ( thus the tax payers) paid for all the road construction and road improvements that were needed. Thus the tax increase. The County probably doing the math with the increase knew they would be paid back big time with the additional tax dollars plus more commercial properties coming in time bringing their tax dollars also. Think it was a win win for both the County & The Developer plus ALL the jobs available to the trades performing the work. JMO

I never said the workers doing the construction. All I said was they were working which means their spending money while working which is good for whatever county or wherever they are living. Food. Beverages gas oil electric etc are being bought and will be for a good many years. There is NOTHING that can be done to stop what’s started at this point. Just pay the bill and hope for the best for next years tax bill. The county won higher taxes, more roads, more houses, hopefully more businesses moving in which means more commercial property and more jobs for those looking for work

The people performing the work for the developer, during the developer's planned projects, will cease to perform that work when the projects are completed. The projects are - construction. Whether engineers, roofers, carpet-layers, or whatever else - they will not have those jobs once the jobs are completed.

My point - is that these people won't be contributing tax dollars after the work is done. Their contributions are temporary. That is WHY developers typically have to pay higher fees than the fee the Villages developers are paying, to build each house. Because any other contributions to the town that would typically cover the costs of the increased population using up all those town services, are temporary.

You bring in workers to build buildings, that some of them will live in, and they will rely on more buildings being built, so that they can continue to afford to live in the buildings their boss built. It's basically a snake eating its own tail. Eventually - it will be fully consumed.

Kenswing
10-07-2019, 06:52 PM
The people performing the work for the developer, during the developer's planned projects, will cease to perform that work when the projects are completed. The projects are - construction. Whether engineers, roofers, carpet-layers, or whatever else - they will not have those jobs once the jobs are completed.

My point - is that these people won't be contributing tax dollars after the work is done. Their contributions are temporary. That is WHY developers typically have to pay higher fees than the fee the Villages developers are paying, to build each house. Because any other contributions to the town that would typically cover the costs of the increased population using up all those town services, are temporary.

You bring in workers to build buildings, that some of them will live in, and they will rely on more buildings being built, so that they can continue to afford to live in the buildings their boss built. It's basically a snake eating its own tail. Eventually - it will be fully consumed.
With the acquisition of somewhere in the neighborhood of 26,000 acres the snake just got a whole lot longer. I think it'll be eating for a long time to come.. lol

skip0358
10-07-2019, 08:26 PM
Besides by the time they’re done building none of us will still be here and if we are we won’t remember this conversation. So all this back and forth is for nothing. Remember Key West is a long ways away and there’s a lot of open land between here and there. I’ll never see the end oh their building and J’m quite sure I’m not alone. As long as people are still coming they’ll keep building. My last post on this wage of time post. We’re beating a dead horse.

Advogado
10-07-2019, 08:38 PM
Besides by the time they’re done building none of us will still be here and if we are we won’t remember this conversation. So all this back and forth is for nothing. Remember Key West is a long ways away and there’s a lot of open land between here and there. I’ll never see the end oh their building and J’m quite sure I’m not alone. As long as people are still coming they’ll keep building. My last post on this wage of time post. We’re beating a dead horse.

The issue in this thread is not whether or not The Villages will massively expand. It will.

The issue here is whether or not the Developer will succeed in offloading the infrastructure costs of such massive expansion on to Sumter County taxpayers in the form of higher property taxes OR will bear those costs in the form of higher impact fees. It should be the latter approach, but the Developer's toadies on the County Commission have chosen the former-- to the detriment of all of us.

PrudentLifer
10-07-2019, 09:42 PM
The issue in this thread is not whether or not The Villages will massively expand. It will.



The issue here is whether or not the Developer will succeed in offloading the infrastructure costs of such massive expansion on to Sumter County taxpayers in the form of higher property taxes OR will bear those costs in the form of higher impact fees. It should be the latter approach, but the Developer's toadies on the County Commission have chosen the former-- to the detriment of all of us.


When the E-9 talked to me about "the powers that be" I knew to back off. Advogado, ain't nuttin' you or I can do about it.





"The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears..." [emoji527]
George Orwell

Advogado
10-07-2019, 09:55 PM
When the E-9 talked to me about "the powers that be" I knew to back off. Advogado, ain't nuttin' you or I can do about it.

"The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears..." [emoji527]
George Orwell

Let's try.

PrudentLifer
10-07-2019, 10:00 PM
Let's try.



Windmills man.


"The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears..." [emoji527]
George Orwell

Advogado
10-07-2019, 10:14 PM
Windmills man.

To continue your analogy: I hope that, in November 2020, you see three County Commissioner windmills tilted out of office. Get out and vote.

Advogado
10-08-2019, 02:17 PM
The ************** website has jumped in on this issue, pointing out in an October 5 editorial, "Anybody in their right mind knows the Developer should be paying for these infrastructure needs through higher impact fees."

PrudentLifer
10-08-2019, 02:41 PM
The ************** website has jumped in on this issue, pointing out in an October 5 editorial, "Anybody in their right mind knows the Developer should be paying for these infrastructure needs through higher impact fees."


**************, my go to source for noteworthy opinions.

geofitz13
10-09-2019, 09:38 AM
Don Wiley, in his most recent construction flyover post, explained this pretty well. The roads that the county is paying for are roads that existed long before the Villages were ever here. They are county roads, and as such, the county is responsible for upkeep and/or improvements to those roads. Morse Blvd, and Buena Vista did not exist before the villages, and therefore were built and paid for by the developer. What we have here is a problem with the county bragging about holding down taxes for 14 years, without any foresight or planning for future needs.

Velvet
10-09-2019, 09:43 AM
...

Advogado
10-09-2019, 11:37 AM
Another cause you can work on...……………………………
And a new conspiracy theory...………….
And what is your explanation for the tax increase in lieu of an increase in the Developer's impact fee?

PrudentLifer
10-09-2019, 11:55 AM
The corporatization of government officials is no secret. Therefore the "conspiracy theorist" hasn't uncovered anything we don't already know.


"The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears..."
George Orwell

Number 10 GI
10-09-2019, 04:24 PM
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PrudentLifer
10-09-2019, 04:55 PM
twilight zone intro by rod serling videos - Bing video (https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=twilight+zone+intro+by+rod+serling+videos&view=detail&mid=0E28553C31BEA57444320E28553C31BEA5744432&FORM=VIRE)



Lol, I just had to click your link.


"The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears..."
George Orwell