Doctors kill more unarmed civilians than Police

[GoodLife]

So we had a black man who was killed during an arrest by Police. This led to huge protests/riots/arson.looting all over the country.

So I looked at the numbers, and thought, what other professions kill unarmed civilians, by mistake or on purpose?

According to the Washington Post database, a total of 41 unarmed people were shot and killed by US police in 2019. The racial composition of victims is:

White: 19
Black: 9
Hispanic: 6
Other: 4
Unknown: 3
Total 41

In some of these cases Police were charged and tried, others were ruled justifiable.

According to the DOJ Police have more than 50 million encounters with citizens every year, traffic stops, domestic violence, burglaries etc etc. Any of these encounters can turn violent. Of course you would like for the number to be zero, but Police killings of unarmed citizens are statistically insignificant compared to the number of encounters.

So chance of unarmed civilian being killed by Police = 41/50,000,000 = 0.00000082

In 1999, the Institute of Medicine published the famous “To Err Is Human” report, which dropped a bombshell on the medical community by reporting that up to 98,000 people a year die because of mistakes in hospitals. The number was initially disputed, but is now widely accepted by doctors and hospital officials — and quoted ubiquitously in the media. More recent studies estimate the number is now more than 200,000 per year.

How Many Die From Medical Mistakes in U.S. Hospitals? — ProPublica (https://www.propublica.org/article/how-many-die-from-medical-mistakes-in-us-hospitals)

Average number of hospitalizations per year in US is 36,000,000

so chance of being killed by medical error is 200,000/36,000,000 = 0.00555

A small chance, but much much larger than Police chance

You can say well Doctors don't kill people on purpose, these are mistakes. Same can be said for Police, in a few cases they might be convicted of murder, but mostly they are ruled as manslaughter or excessive use of force. If Police really wanted to kill a lot of people of any race they could, they are armed and good shots. The miniscule numbers of this actually happening are statistically insignificant.

Do Doctors ever kill on purpose? Unfortunately they do.

Ohio doctor charged with 25 counts of murdering patients with fatal doses of fentanyl.
His trial has been delayed because of covid, so we will see what a jury says about this.
That's just one Doctor who killed more than 50% of what Police did last year.

How many Doctors go to jail every year for malpractice or murder? Do they avoid prosecution because their insurance pays out large sums?

To err is human for some but not all?

[golfing eagles]

So we had a black man who was killed during an arrest by Police. This led to huge protests/riots/arson.looting all over the country.

So I looked at the numbers, and thought, what other professions kill unarmed civilians, by mistake or on purpose?

According to the Washington Post database, a total of 41 unarmed people were shot and killed by US police in 2019. The racial composition of victims is:

White: 19
Black: 9
Hispanic: 6
Other: 4
Unknown: 3
Total 41

In some of these cases Police were charged and tried, others were ruled justifiable.

According to the DOJ Police have more than 50 million encounters with citizens every year, traffic stops, domestic violence, burglaries etc etc. Any of these encounters can turn violent. Of course you would like for the number to be zero, but Police killings of unarmed citizens are statistically insignificant compared to the number of encounters.

So chance of unarmed civilian being killed by Police = 41/50,000,000 = 0.00000082

In 1999, the Institute of Medicine published the famous “To Err Is Human” report, which dropped a bombshell on the medical community by reporting that up to 98,000 people a year die because of mistakes in hospitals. The number was initially disputed, but is now widely accepted by doctors and hospital officials — and quoted ubiquitously in the media. More recent studies estimate the number is now more than 200,000 per year.

How Many Die From Medical Mistakes in U.S. Hospitals? — ProPublica (https://www.propublica.org/article/how-many-die-from-medical-mistakes-in-us-hospitals)

Average number of hospitalizations per year in US is 36,000,000

so chance of being killed by medical error is 200,000/36,000,000 = 0.00555

A small chance, but much much larger than Police chance

You can say well Doctors don't kill people on purpose, these are mistakes. Same can be said for Police, in a few cases they might be convicted of murder, but mostly they are ruled as manslaughter or excessive use of force. If Police really wanted to kill a lot of people of any race they could, they are armed and good shots. The miniscule numbers of this actually happening are statistically insignificant.

Do Doctors ever kill on purpose? Unfortunately they do.

Ohio doctor charged with 25 counts of murdering patients with fatal doses of fentanyl.
His trial has been delayed because of covid, so we will see what a jury says about this.
That's just one Doctor who killed more than 50% of what Police did last year.

How many Doctors go to jail every year for malpractice or murder? Do they avoid prosecution because their insurance pays out large sums?

To err is human for some but not all?

Sorry, but those medical mistake numbers are totally bogus. They are counting any death during a hospitalization that also had a "mistake" involved. Here's how it goes: The doctor ordered a patient to get Tylenol at 6 PM. The nurse needs to administer that dose between 5:30 and 6:30. It is given at 6:31-----MISTAKE!!!! The patient dies of his underlying malignancy 2 weeks later----guess what, it is counted in their bogus "death by mistake" tally. A classic case of post hoc ergo propter hoc (after this because of this, the sine qua non of faulty cause/effect reasoning). A pharmacist sends up an IV bag with 10 mg of solumedrol instead of the 20 ordered, the patient dies of an unrelated cardiac event a week later---same thing, death by MISTAKE!!!. Very few of these "mistakes" have anything to do with a patient death, and very few of those mistakes are made by the doctor. Now anyone who wants to argue, feel free, but be forewarned that I chaired the quality assurance committee of my hospital for 10 years, was chief of staff for 4 years and sat on the board of directors. These were the numbers and events that we were required to submit to the state health department, so the bean counters could make a big deal out of nothing, and then the media made an even bigger deal out of it.

[Stu from NYC]

So we had a black man who was killed during an arrest by Police. This led to huge protests/riots/arson.looting all over the country.

So I looked at the numbers, and thought, what other professions kill unarmed civilians, by mistake or on purpose?

According to the Washington Post database, a total of 41 unarmed people were shot and killed by US police in 2019. The racial composition of victims is:

White: 19
Black: 9
Hispanic: 6
Other: 4
Unknown: 3
Total 41

In some of these cases Police were charged and tried, others were ruled justifiable.

According to the DOJ Police have more than 50 million encounters with citizens every year, traffic stops, domestic violence, burglaries etc etc. Any of these encounters can turn violent. Of course you would like for the number to be zero, but Police killings of unarmed citizens are statistically insignificant compared to the number of encounters.

So chance of unarmed civilian being killed by Police = 41/50,000,000 = 0.00000082

In 1999, the Institute of Medicine published the famous “To Err Is Human” report, which dropped a bombshell on the medical community by reporting that up to 98,000 people a year die because of mistakes in hospitals. The number was initially disputed, but is now widely accepted by doctors and hospital officials — and quoted ubiquitously in the media. More recent studies estimate the number is now more than 200,000 per year.

How Many Die From Medical Mistakes in U.S. Hospitals? — ProPublica (https://www.propublica.org/article/how-many-die-from-medical-mistakes-in-us-hospitals)

Average number of hospitalizations per year in US is 36,000,000

so chance of being killed by medical error is 200,000/36,000,000 = 0.00555

A small chance, but much much larger than Police chance

You can say well Doctors don't kill people on purpose, these are mistakes. Same can be said for Police, in a few cases they might be convicted of murder, but mostly they are ruled as manslaughter or excessive use of force. If Police really wanted to kill a lot of people of any race they could, they are armed and good shots. The miniscule numbers of this actually happening are statistically insignificant.

Do Doctors ever kill on purpose? Unfortunately they do.

Ohio doctor charged with 25 counts of murdering patients with fatal doses of fentanyl.
His trial has been delayed because of covid, so we will see what a jury says about this.
That's just one Doctor who killed more than 50% of what Police did last year.

How many Doctors go to jail every year for malpractice or murder? Do they avoid prosecution because their insurance pays out large sums?

To err is human for some but not all?

Very interesting.

[dewilson58]

How many of those Doctor caused deaths were a result of the Doctor's slice vs. a hook???
That's what inquiring minds want to know.

[golfing eagles]

How many of those Doctor caused deaths were a result of the Doctor's slice vs. a hook???
That's what inquiring minds want to know.

I would suspect the "slice", especially in the OR. We haven't used hooks in a hundred years:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

PS--read post #2. Most of the "mistakes" are irrelevant, and probably less than 2% are committed by the doctor, so please don't refer to them as "doctor deaths" I think the term "bean counter's anomaly" describes it better

[GoodLife]

Sorry, but those medical mistake numbers are totally bogus. They are counting any death during a hospitalization that also had a "mistake" involved. Here's how it goes: The doctor ordered a patient to get Tylenol at 6 PM. The nurse needs to administer that dose between 5:30 and 6:30. It is given at 6:31-----MISTAKE!!!! The patient dies of his underlying malignancy 2 weeks later----guess what, it is counted in their bogus "death by mistake" tally. A classic case of post hoc ergo propter hoc (after this because of this, the sine qua non of faulty cause/effect reasoning). A pharmacist sends up an IV bag with 10 mg of solumedrol instead of the 20 ordered, the patient dies of an unrelated cardiac event a week later---same thing, death by MISTAKE!!!. Very few of these "mistakes" have anything to do with a patient death, and very few of those mistakes are made by the doctor. Now anyone who wants to argue, feel free, but be forewarned that I chaired the quality assurance committee of my hospital for 10 years, was chief of staff for 4 years and sat on the board of directors. These were the numbers and events that we were required to submit to the state health department, so the bean counters could make a big deal out of nothing, and then the media made an even bigger deal out of it.

I was assured by another Doctor on this forum that ProPublica.org was a very good source. :icon_wink: Their article quotes studies done by Institute of Medicine, Inspector General for Health and Human Services, and the Journal for Patient Safety.

Here's another one from John Hopkins. Are these guys bean counters too?

Study Suggests Medical Errors Now Third Leading Cause of Death in the U.S. Analyzing medical death rate data over an eight-year period, Johns Hopkins patient safety experts have calculated that more than 250,000 deaths per year are due to medical error in the U.S.

Study Suggests Medical Errors Now Third Leading Cause of Death in the U.S. - 05/03/2016 (https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/news/media/releases/study_suggests_medical_errors_now_third_leading_ca use_of_death_in_the_us)

So you are saying all these Doctor/hospital deaths are bogus? It's all the nurses fault?

Can you post a link to another unbiased source showing the true number? I think that some might think a source from Doctor organizations might be biased.

I'm not trying to knock Doctors down, several of them have saved my life, just comparing the death rates vs Police shootings of unarmed civilians. I can change the title to "medical error deaths" if that's more accurate.

[Two Bills]

Whatever the odds, I still prefer a doctor to cut me open, rather than a policeman!

[dewilson58]

I would suspect the "slice", especially in the OR. We haven't used hooks in a hundred years:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:




I would recommend a stronger grip.


:clap2:

[charlieo1126@gmail.com]

So we had a black man who was killed during an arrest by Police. This led to huge protests/riots/arson.looting all over the country.

So I looked at the numbers, and thought, what other professions kill unarmed civilians, by mistake or on purpose?

According to the Washington Post database, a total of 41 unarmed people were shot and killed by US police in 2019. The racial composition of victims is:

White: 19
Black: 9
Hispanic: 6
Other: 4
Unknown: 3
Total 41

In some of these cases Police were charged and tried, others were ruled justifiable.

According to the DOJ Police have more than 50 million encounters with citizens every year, traffic stops, domestic violence, burglaries etc etc. Any of these encounters can turn violent. Of course you would like for the number to be zero, but Police killings of unarmed citizens are statistically insignificant compared to the number of encounters.

So chance of unarmed civilian being killed by Police = 41/50,000,000 = 0.00000082

In 1999, the Institute of Medicine published the famous “To Err Is Human” report, which dropped a bombshell on the medical community by reporting that up to 98,000 people a year die because of mistakes in hospitals. The number was initially disputed, but is now widely accepted by doctors and hospital officials — and quoted ubiquitously in the media. More recent studies estimate the number is now more than 200,000 per year.

How Many Die From Medical Mistakes in U.S. Hospitals? — ProPublica (https://www.propublica.org/article/how-many-die-from-medical-mistakes-in-us-hospitals)

Average number of hospitalizations per year in US is 36,000,000

so chance of being killed by medical error is 200,000/36,000,000 = 0.00555

A small chance, but much much larger than Police chance

You can say well Doctors don't kill people on purpose, these are mistakes. Same can be said for Police, in a few cases they might be convicted of murder, but mostly they are ruled as manslaughter or excessive use of force. If Police really wanted to kill a lot of people of any race they could, they are armed and good shots. The miniscule numbers of this actually happening are statistically insignificant.

Do Doctors ever kill on purpose? Unfortunately they do.

Ohio doctor charged with 25 counts of murdering patients with fatal doses of fentanyl.
His trial has been delayed because of covid, so we will see what a jury says about this.
That's just one Doctor who killed more than 50% of what Police did last year.

How many Doctors go to jail every year for malpractice or murder? Do they avoid prosecution because their insurance pays out large sums?

To err is human for some but not all?2019 Washington post 999! People killed, since 2015 5400 killed Washington post , in 2019 1004 killed by police , so far in 2020, killed by police 172 white , 88 blacks,57 Hispanic , 14 other, and 98 race unknown , I guess there are still people who think no one knows how to google, you can see the breakdown of state s for those years , all I had was 3 minutes to find about 10 sites including FBI lol

[GoodLife]

2019 Washington post 999! People killed, since 2015 5400 killed Washington post , in 2019 1004 killed by police , so far in 2020, killed by police 172 white , 88 blacks,57 Hispanic , 14 other, and 98 race unknown , I guess there are still people who think no one knows how to google, you can see the breakdown of state s for those years , all I had was 3 minutes to find about 10 sites including FBI lol

The numbers I quote are from the Washington Post, and they are for UNARMED CIVILIANS killed by Police in 2019. Police shoot lots more ARMED CRIMINALS.

[Bikeracer2009]

I'm going out on a limb here but I'm guessing the OP is not black and has a very limited idea of what it's like being a black person?

I do understand the point being made. The facts are not lost on me.

Not that it matters but I did grow up very poor, had to work full time instead of going to high school and maybe about 20% of my friends were black. I'm only pointing out my background as a point of reference.

Having black friends really let's a person see what they see. I can honestly say that there was never a time when racism didn't get brought up. Some of the situations we discussed seemed more likely that racism wasn't actual but rather perceived. I could disagree with my friends and it didn't cause any problems most of the time. It was shocking that a friend thought I was being racist when one day I said "boy am I tired" as I let out a deep breath. My friend instantly wanted to fight over that statement. It actually took a rather uncomfortable amount of time to convince him I wasn't calling him a boy. Again, I'm pointing out how a friend perceived racism when it didn't exist. I do try to see things from a different perspective as a result of my experiences.

As far as the police are concerned, I could easily recount no less than a dozen times I was with my friends and the police harrassed us for no reason. It was brutal to witness the outright racism and be a white person.

I absolutely don't condone resisting arrest, attacking a police officer or even disrespecting law enforcement in any way. I wish it would stop because it's not helping.

Unfortunately fatherless families, gangs, welfare, anti-white peer pressure etc are underlying issues that possibly lead to anger and rebellion? I don't have the answers.

What I do know is that statistics don't give you a complete picture. They are indisputable when it comes to showing the results of a broken system but they don't give us a road map to the solution.

It's so easy to say stop breaking the law, finish school, get a job and don't have kids out of wedlock.

That's what I ended up doing.
But that didn't work for the young man walking home one night minding his own business. He was a shy, introverted 19 year old that was confronted by several officers for looking "suspicious". He was killed and it was all on police body cameras. He didn't resist, was handcuffed and laying face down saying he couldn't breath. 5 officers kept him pinned down and then they had medical personnel give a powerful sedative.

This shouldn't happen to anyone of any color.

I support the police and I support police reforms that weed out bad cops instead of protecting them. BLM doesn't mean white lives don't matter so stop being offended if that bothers you.

[GoodLife]

I'm going out on a limb here but I'm guessing the OP is not black and has a very limited idea of what it's like being a black person?

I do understand the point being made. The facts are not lost on me.

Not that it matters but I did grow up very poor, had to work full time instead of going to high school and maybe about 20% of my friends were black. I'm only pointing out my background as a point of reference.

Having black friends really let's a person see what they see. I can honestly say that there was never a time when racism didn't get brought up. Some of the situations we discussed seemed more likely that racism wasn't actual but rather perceived. I could disagree with my friends and it didn't cause any problems most of the time. It was shocking that a friend thought I was being racist when one day I said "boy am I tired" as I let out a deep breath. My friend instantly wanted to fight over that statement. It actually took a rather uncomfortable amount of time to convince him I wasn't calling him a boy. Again, I'm pointing out how a friend perceived racism when it didn't exist. I do try to see things from a different perspective as a result of my experiences.

As far as the police are concerned, I could easily recount no less than a dozen times I was with my friends and the police harrassed us for no reason. It was brutal to witness the outright racism and be a white person.

I absolutely don't condone resisting arrest, attacking a police officer or even disrespecting law enforcement in any way. I wish it would stop because it's not helping.

Unfortunately fatherless families, gangs, welfare, anti-white peer pressure etc are underlying issues that possibly lead to anger and rebellion? I don't have the answers.

What I do know is that statistics don't give you a complete picture. They are indisputable when it comes to showing the results of a broken system but they don't give us a road map to the solution.

It's so easy to say stop breaking the law, finish school, get a job and don't have kids out of wedlock.

That's what I ended up doing.
But that didn't work for the young man walking home one night minding his own business. He was a shy, introverted 19 year old that was confronted by several officers for looking "suspicious". He was killed and it was all on police body cameras. He didn't resist, was handcuffed and laying face down saying he couldn't breath. 5 officers kept him pinned down and then they had medical personnel give a powerful sedative.

This shouldn't happen to anyone of any color.

I support the police and I support police reforms that weed out bad cops instead of protecting them. BLM doesn't mean white lives don't matter so stop being offended if that bothers you.

Yes, you're the only one here who has ever had black friends. LOL I grew up in Chicago just for starters, played on a lot of sports teams that were mixed races. Lots of black friends.

I've been harassed by Police in groups of all whites, been tear gassed at Berkeley during People's Park, and was once pulled over by cops in California driving my girlfriends red mini cooper. They told me over their loudspeaker to get out of my car, hands raised and put them on the roof. As I looked back both cops were behind the doors of their cruiser with their guns aimed at me. I complied 100% They approached and as one officer patted me down, the other one stood 15 feet away with his gun pointed at me. Turns out, they heard of an armed car jacking on their radio, saw me and pulled me over. After seeing registration etc they apologized and told me what had happened.

There's no doubt that blacks as a whole are poorer, less educated than whites. But we've been throwing gobs of money at the problem, writing laws to prevent discrimination, etc for years. We had a black President for 8 years. Problems still exists with fatherless black families, high crime rates etc.

Why do other minorities exist like Asians, latinos etc that seem able to thrive in our system, schools, economy? Sooner or later we stop hearing the boy who cried wolf.

[Bikeracer2009]

You answered my first question. You do have limited knowledge of what it's like living as a black person.

You make a false statement to support your comment. You claimed I was the only one on this site that has ever had black friends. I never made such a claim.

You claimed to have had black friends but only state that you played sports on mixed raced teams.

You give an example of how rough life was for you as if your run-in with the cops compares to what black people go through. It was a mistake and the police apologized to you. Oh, you poor thing. How do you even sleep at night?

You state that blacks are more poorer and less educated despite gobs of money being thrown at the problem. Laws are written to prevent discrimination and Obama had 8 years to fix the problem but failed. Well, I guess we should throw in towel? After all there's a law against discrimination. Job well done if I do say so myself.

Why do other minorities thrive that were never slaves? That didn't have the same history?

Well done sir, I'm sure all your black friends agree with your assessment and you certainly know how it feels to be black.

It's funny that your comment will stand as the last word and mine will get deleted. Who says white privilege doesn't exist. Come to TV and see it for yourself.

[jacksonbrown]

Why do other minorities thrive that were never slaves?

So to which minorities are you referring?

The Irish, Italians, Orientals?

Maybe they would remind you of the potato famine, Roman and Mussolini rule, communist oligarths.

[Bikeracer2009]

I'm not going to address other races that have at some point in the worlds history, were enslaved by another race. I'm only sticking to the sufferage Black Americans endured after slavery ended. This is what is tearing America apart right now.

Some people in the black race feel that not enough has been done to address the inequities that they feel still exist in America.

Not all black people feel this way but that doesn't mean that the ones that do can't express their feelings for change. A lot of other races support the movement to rid our country of painful reminders of the past and a lot of companies are also supportive of this movement.

Unfortunately, other groups are hijacking this movement and promoting violence to further their agenda.

It's also unfortunate that the violence all too prevalent in the black race has giving opponents to this movement statistical ammunition to justify the status quo.

[2mnydogs]

Rather have doctors cutting you open vs. police is a very stupid comparison and makes no sense at all.

[jacksonbrown]

I'm not going to address other races that have at some point in the worlds history, were enslaved by another race. I'm only sticking to the sufferage (sic) Black Americans endured after slavery ended.

Sir / madam, you have conveniently disregarded my question. To wit, "Why do other minorities thrive that were never slaves?"

Anyway, you wrote "It's also unfortunate that the violence all too prevalent in the black race"

Now that's one sentiment upon which we both can agree.

Since LBJ, blacks have allowed their race to be "purchased" by those politicians who, instead of working towards normalization of economic opportunities, have thrown trillions at the problem, just to buy votes.

As a result, blacks, who once had an enviable and strong family construct, now, without fathers, place the burden of child-raising on working Moms.

And where do those children find their male roll models?

On the street, in prison, gangsters, foul-mouthed rappers, etc.

[Heyitsrick]

Sorry, but those medical mistake numbers are totally bogus. They are counting any death during a hospitalization that also had a "mistake" involved. Here's how it goes: The doctor ordered a patient to get Tylenol at 6 PM. The nurse needs to administer that dose between 5:30 and 6:30. It is given at 6:31-----MISTAKE!!!! The patient dies of his underlying malignancy 2 weeks later----guess what, it is counted in their bogus "death by mistake" tally. A classic case of post hoc ergo propter hoc (after this because of this, the sine qua non of faulty cause/effect reasoning). A pharmacist sends up an IV bag with 10 mg of solumedrol instead of the 20 ordered, the patient dies of an unrelated cardiac event a week later---same thing, death by MISTAKE!!!. Very few of these "mistakes" have anything to do with a patient death, and very few of those mistakes are made by the doctor. Now anyone who wants to argue, feel free, but be forewarned that I chaired the quality assurance committee of my hospital for 10 years, was chief of staff for 4 years and sat on the board of directors. These were the numbers and events that we were required to submit to the state health department, so the bean counters could make a big deal out of nothing, and then the media made an even bigger deal out of it.

Off-topic: I'm guessing you may agree that someone who tested positive for COVID-19 and subsequently died didn't necessarily die of COVID-19 effects at all, no? Let's say they already had high blood pressure, or diabetes or any number of underlying conditions. Yet, they tested positive for COVID-19. Bingo - there's a COVID-19 fatality, based on a positive test. Worse, even suspected COVID-19 fatalities (people never tested for COVID-19) are now being counted.

[Heyitsrick]

I was assured by another Doctor on this forum that ProPublica.org was a very good source. :icon_wink: Their article quotes studies done by Institute of Medicine, Inspector General for Health and Human Services, and the Journal for Patient Safety.

Here's another one from John Hopkins. Are these guys bean counters too?

Study Suggests Medical Errors Now Third Leading Cause of Death in the U.S. Analyzing medical death rate data over an eight-year period, Johns Hopkins patient safety experts have calculated that more than 250,000 deaths per year are due to medical error in the U.S.

Study Suggests Medical Errors Now Third Leading Cause of Death in the U.S. - 05/03/2016 (https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/news/media/releases/study_suggests_medical_errors_now_third_leading_ca use_of_death_in_the_us)

So you are saying all these Doctor/hospital deaths are bogus? It's all the nurses fault?

Can you post a link to another unbiased source showing the true number? I think that some might think a source from Doctor organizations might be biased.

I'm not trying to knock Doctors down, several of them have saved my life, just comparing the death rates vs Police shootings of unarmed civilians. I can change the title to "medical error deaths" if that's more accurate.

There's a paragraph in the Hopkins study that lends credence both to your primary point about medical errors numbers, and to Golfing Eagle's point about mistakenly laying this all off on doctors:


The researchers caution that most of medical errors aren’t due to inherently bad doctors, and that reporting these errors shouldn’t be addressed by punishment or legal action. Rather, they say, most errors represent systemic problems, including poorly coordinated care, fragmented insurance networks, the absence or underuse of safety nets, and other protocols, in addition to unwarranted variation in physician practice patterns that lack accountability.

[villageuser]

The numbers I quote are from the Washington Post, and they are for UNARMED CIVILIANS killed by Police in 2019. Police shoot lots more ARMED CRIMINALS.

Someone could have been walking down the street with a bat cause they were coming from the park, and be categorized as “armed”. Just because one is carrying or hiding a potentially lethal weapon does not mean it had anything to do with the police stop or the killing. Someone shot in the back while running away from the cop is still unjustifiable homicide.

All those scenarios would not be included under the category of “unarmed” but should be included if one is comparing pointless killings by cops versus deaths caused by medical incompetence.

[matandch]

Red herring, straw man arguments. You’re comparing apples and turtles.

[beachman46]

Great dialogue from both sides about race. There is hope..

[TomPerry]

One other fact contained the OP that has not been discussed yet - - - - Doctors Kill More People Than COVID-19!!!

[banjobob]

The BLM movement is a scam , if not what protests are there for all the black murders every week and in major cities. Namely Chicago anyone funding this charade is foolish.

[MandoMan]

I have huge respect for physicians—the vast majority who are good ones. Not for the bad ones. The worst are those selling pain pills of various sorts to drug addicts. These people make possible the deaths of many thousands of people a year. However, there are also many people who sue doctors because of a bad result, and there are thousands of lawyers who make their wealth trying to make doctors look guilty of things they didn’t do. I spent two years as an operating room scrub tech in top hospitals in Colorado and California. I scrubbed on over a thousand surgeries. I only recall seeing one case of malpractice (a general surgeon trying to do a hip pinning). (I’m not counting the famous gynecologist who, after a c-section, swing the placenta around his head by the umbilical cord as if it were a lariat, hollering like a cowboy, leaving a trail of blood on the walls around the room. The patient and anesthesiologist had already left, so no one was harmed.)

In 1974-75 I was an operating room supervisor in a hospital in Rwanda. I’ve written about it in my recent book “They Don’t Eat Missionaries Anymore.” One doctor I worked with sewed the intestines into the incision of two patients in six weeks without my noticing. The patients died after he left. Was it murder? Not really. Should he have noticed? Definitely. He now lives in south Florida, and according to the DEA, holds the U.S. record in most pain pills purchased for redistribution: 1,960,000 pills! So, have people died because of his prescriptions or pills sold to make him wealthy? I don’t know for sure, but I’d guess hundreds have died thanks to him. Are these lives that matter?

So we had a black man who was killed during an arrest by Police. This led to huge protests/riots/arson.looting all over the country.

So I looked at the numbers, and thought, what other professions kill unarmed civilians, by mistake or on purpose?

According to the Washington Post database, a total of 41 unarmed people were shot and killed by US police in 2019. The racial composition of victims is:

White: 19
Black: 9
Hispanic: 6
Other: 4
Unknown: 3
Total 41

In some of these cases Police were charged and tried, others were ruled justifiable.

According to the DOJ Police have more than 50 million encounters with citizens every year, traffic stops, domestic violence, burglaries etc etc. Any of these encounters can turn violent. Of course you would like for the number to be zero, but Police killings of unarmed citizens are statistically insignificant compared to the number of encounters.

So chance of unarmed civilian being killed by Police = 41/50,000,000 = 0.00000082

In 1999, the Institute of Medicine published the famous “To Err Is Human” report, which dropped a bombshell on the medical community by reporting that up to 98,000 people a year die because of mistakes in hospitals. The number was initially disputed, but is now widely accepted by doctors and hospital officials — and quoted ubiquitously in the media. More recent studies estimate the number is now more than 200,000 per year.

How Many Die From Medical Mistakes in U.S. Hospitals? — ProPublica (https://www.propublica.org/article/how-many-die-from-medical-mistakes-in-us-hospitals)

Average number of hospitalizations per year in US is 36,000,000

so chance of being killed by medical error is 200,000/36,000,000 = 0.00555

A small chance, but much much larger than Police chance

You can say well Doctors don't kill people on purpose, these are mistakes. Same can be said for Police, in a few cases they might be convicted of murder, but mostly they are ruled as manslaughter or excessive use of force. If Police really wanted to kill a lot of people of any race they could, they are armed and good shots. The miniscule numbers of this actually happening are statistically insignificant.

Do Doctors ever kill on purpose? Unfortunately they do.

Ohio doctor charged with 25 counts of murdering patients with fatal doses of fentanyl.
His trial has been delayed because of covid, so we will see what a jury says about this.
That's just one Doctor who killed more than 50% of what Police did last year.

How many Doctors go to jail every year for malpractice or murder? Do they avoid prosecution because their insurance pays out large sums?

To err is human for some but not all?

[rakopacz@comcast.net]

Doctors don’t go around deliberately seeking patients out to kill. Unfortunately many cops are racist and enjoy murdering blacks. There is a difference.

[GoodLife]

Doctors don’t go around deliberately seeking patients out to kill. Unfortunately many cops are racist and enjoy murdering blacks. There is a difference.

There's no proof of this in the actual numbers. Only 9 unarmed blacks were killed by Police last year. There are currently 700,000 law enforcement officers in USA. They must be really bad shots if they are so racist and "enjoy murdering blacks"

[tophcfa]

This is a ridiculous thread. How about all the lives both doctors and police officers save. There are a couple of doctors that saved my life who I will be eternally grateful to. Stay safe.

[roscoguy]

So we had a black man who was killed during an arrest by Police. This led to huge protests/riots/arson.looting all over the country.

So I looked at the numbers, and thought, what other professions kill unarmed civilians, by mistake or on purpose?

According to the Washington Post database, a total of 41 unarmed people were shot and killed by US police in 2019. The racial composition of victims is:

White: 19
Black: 9
Hispanic: 6
Other: 4
Unknown: 3
Total 41

In some of these cases Police were charged and tried, others were ruled justifiable.

According to the DOJ Police have more than 50 million encounters with citizens every year, traffic stops, domestic violence, burglaries etc etc. Any of these encounters can turn violent. Of course you would like for the number to be zero, but Police killings of unarmed citizens are statistically insignificant compared to the number of encounters.

So chance of unarmed civilian being killed by Police = 41/50,000,000 = 0.00000082

In 1999, the Institute of Medicine published the famous “To Err Is Human” report, which dropped a bombshell on the medical community by reporting that up to 98,000 people a year die because of mistakes in hospitals. The number was initially disputed, but is now widely accepted by doctors and hospital officials — and quoted ubiquitously in the media. More recent studies estimate the number is now more than 200,000 per year.

How Many Die From Medical Mistakes in U.S. Hospitals? — ProPublica (https://www.propublica.org/article/how-many-die-from-medical-mistakes-in-us-hospitals)

Average number of hospitalizations per year in US is 36,000,000

so chance of being killed by medical error is 200,000/36,000,000 = 0.00555

A small chance, but much much larger than Police chance

You can say well Doctors don't kill people on purpose, these are mistakes. Same can be said for Police, in a few cases they might be convicted of murder, but mostly they are ruled as manslaughter or excessive use of force. If Police really wanted to kill a lot of people of any race they could, they are armed and good shots. The miniscule numbers of this actually happening are statistically insignificant.

Do Doctors ever kill on purpose? Unfortunately they do.

Ohio doctor charged with 25 counts of murdering patients with fatal doses of fentanyl.
His trial has been delayed because of covid, so we will see what a jury says about this.
That's just one Doctor who killed more than 50% of what Police did last year.

How many Doctors go to jail every year for malpractice or murder? Do they avoid prosecution because their insurance pays out large sums?

To err is human for some but not all?

Your police shooting numbers seem to be taken from a source other than the Washington Post. According to their actual database, there were 55 police shootings of unarmed people in 2019. https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/police-shootings-database/
Then, there are other sources that are not limited to only shootings. According to Mapping Police Violence, there were as many as 114 deaths of unarmed people caused by police in 2019. National Trends — Mapping Police Violence (https://mappingpoliceviolence.org/nationaltrends)

I don't really understand the point of this thread. Maybe still trying to downplay the obvious police misconduct leading to George Floyd's death by comparing unrelated numbers of police shootings to medical errors? They both are preventable causes, but for the most part so are deaths from auto accidents, heart attacks, workplace accidents, strokes, drownings & lightning strikes. No real correlation that I can see.
Are you saying that the medical field needs to be held more accountable for accidental deaths? If that's it, then what would police-related deaths have to do with it? Puzzling... :shrug:

[theruizs]

“How many Doctors go to jail every year for malpractice or murder?” Likely not as many as there should be. But either way, these facts are no reason to ignore the problems with unnecessary police violence. Why use one problem to excuse another?

[golfing eagles]

I was assured by another Doctor on this forum that ProPublica.org was a very good source. :icon_wink: Their article quotes studies done by Institute of Medicine, Inspector General for Health and Human Services, and the Journal for Patient Safety.

Here's another one from John Hopkins. Are these guys bean counters too?

Study Suggests Medical Errors Now Third Leading Cause of Death in the U.S. Analyzing medical death rate data over an eight-year period, Johns Hopkins patient safety experts have calculated that more than 250,000 deaths per year are due to medical error in the U.S.

Study Suggests Medical Errors Now Third Leading Cause of Death in the U.S. - 05/03/2016 (https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/news/media/releases/study_suggests_medical_errors_now_third_leading_ca use_of_death_in_the_us)

So you are saying all these Doctor/hospital deaths are bogus? It's all the nurses fault?

Can you post a link to another unbiased source showing the true number? I think that some might think a source from Doctor organizations might be biased.

I'm not trying to knock Doctors down, several of them have saved my life, just comparing the death rates vs Police shootings of unarmed civilians. I can change the title to "medical error deaths" if that's more accurate.


The problem is not with your source, the problem is WHAT they are counting. In the example I gave, how can you possibly believe it was "the nurse's fault". The problem is that regulatory authorities have decided to count meaningless nonsense in the "death" statistics. My girlfriend is a nurse that works in informatics. They now want to count "near mistakes" What the heck is a "near mistake" ?

Now, there are some "bad" doctors out there, and there are mistakes they make that cause patient deaths. I could tell you stories that would scare you to "death". But the magnitude is nowhere near what these studies report, again, most of these "mistakes" are irrelevant.

[GoodLife]

Your police shooting numbers seem to be taken from a source other than the Washington Post. According to their actual database, there were 55 police shootings of unarmed people in 2019. https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/police-shootings-database/
Then, there are other sources that are not limited to only shootings. According to Mapping Police Violence, there were as many as 114 deaths of unarmed people caused by police in 2019. National Trends — Mapping Police Violence (https://mappingpoliceviolence.org/nationaltrends)

I don't really understand the point of this thread. Maybe still trying to downplay the obvious police misconduct leading to George Floyd's death by comparing unrelated numbers of police shootings to medical errors? They both are preventable causes, but for the most part so are deaths from auto accidents, heart attacks, workplace accidents, strokes, drownings & lightning strikes. No real correlation that I can see.
Are you saying that the medical field needs to be held more accountable for accidental deaths? If that's it, then what would police-related deaths have to do with it? Puzzling... :shrug:

Looks like WAPO updated their numbers. So in 2019 55 unarmed people were killed, 15 Black and 25 White. Doesn't matter, still a miniscule problem when you look at the millions of encounters Police have with civilians every year. In many of these cases, juries find Police not guilty of intentional murder. In many cases it is just human error in a split second decision.

WAPO also said

“The number of black and unarmed people fatally shot by police has declined since 2015." (by 60%)

“Fatal police shootings are relatively rare events in a country where nearly 40,000 people die from firearms each year. Hundreds of thousands of police officers work in America, most of whom will never fire their guns on duty.”

According to statistics reported to the FBI, 89 law enforcement officers were killed in line-of-duty incidents in 2019. Of these, 48 officers died as a result of felonious acts, and 41 officers died in accidents. Weapons. Offenders used firearms to kill 44 of the 48 victim officers. Four officers were killed with vehicles used as weapons.

15 of the LEOs killed in 2019 were killed by Blacks. Where's the big hubbub about that?

Every year 1000's of blacks are murdered by blacks. Where's the hubbub about that?

Black on white violent crime is much larger than white on black crime. No hubub

I'm pretty sure a jury will convict the Police of murder or something less in Floyd case. I don't have to downplay Police misconduct, the actual numbers show it's way less of a problem than Black on Black murders, and at least in 2019, no bigger a problem than Blacks murdering Police officers.

The point of this post is to show the scale of these issues. Whether it's Doctors or nurses etc, several well known entities like John Hopkins have found that over 200,000 die each year due to medical errors.

[golfing eagles]

The point of this post is to show the scale of these issues. Whether it's Doctors or nurses etc, several well known entities like John Hopkins have found that over 200,000 die each year due to medical errors.

Your a smart individual, why are you having trouble understanding this? 200,000 patients/year do not die DUE to medical errors, 200,000 people die and HAD a so called medical error during their hospital stay. There is no strong cause and effect correlation at work with these statistics. It's like getting your oil changed on Monday and dying in a car accident Friday----the oil change did not CAUSE the accident.

[GoodLife]

Your a smart individual, why are you having trouble understanding this? 200,000 patients/year do not die DUE to medical errors, 200,000 people die and HAD a so called medical error during their hospital stay. There is no strong cause and effect correlation at work with these statistics. It's like getting your oil changed on Monday and dying in a car accident Friday----the oil change did not CAUSE the accident.

What you say is probably true. Can you post a source for the true numbers? I assumed that these organizations like John Hopkins know what they are doing.

Besides, I can prove my point without the medical error deaths. I would bet Doctors Intentionally kill more people per year than Police kill unarmed civilians. The Ohio Dr is on trial for killing 25 with fentanyl, that's 50% of the Police total.

But I don't think Doctors are murdering Nazis because a few of them are bad. I play golf with several of them :icon_wink: Nor do I think Police are racists who kill blacks indiscriminately. The actual numbers are miniscule in relation to other stats.

[golfing eagles]

What you say is probably true. Can you post a source for the true numbers? I assumed that these organizations like John Hopkins know what they are doing.

Besides, I can prove my point without the medical error deaths. I would bet Doctors Intentionally kill more people per year than Police kill unarmed civilians. The Ohio Dr is on trial for killing 25 with fentanyl, that's 50% of the Police total.

But I don't think Doctors are murdering Nazis because a few of them are bad. I play golf with several of them :icon_wink: Nor do I think Police are racists who kill blacks indiscriminately. The actual numbers are miniscule in relation to other stats.

Unfortunately there is no source for "true" numbers, because the powers that be aren't interested in true numbers. NY State health dept. spends many millions of dollars to collect this data, so the last thing they want is for the data to show nothing of significance.

Perhaps our problem is that the comparison between medical "mistakes" and police deaths is apples and oranges. I agree with your point that the number of deaths caused by police is very small compared to the number of interactions the police have with citizens. And the media is quick to overlook that in the recent highly publicized deaths, the victims all were resisting arrest. If they had just followed the instructions of the LEO's, as they are required to do by law, they would be alive today. That's no excuse for the indifferent use of excessive force displayed by the officers involved in those cases, but if you don't go swimming in the ocean, you don't get eaten by sharks.

[Byte1]

So we had a black man who was killed during an arrest by Police. This led to huge protests/riots/arson.looting all over the country.

So I looked at the numbers, and thought, what other professions kill unarmed civilians, by mistake or on purpose?

According to the Washington Post database, a total of 41 unarmed people were shot and killed by US police in 2019. The racial composition of victims is:

White: 19
Black: 9
Hispanic: 6
Other: 4
Unknown: 3
Total 41

In some of these cases Police were charged and tried, others were ruled justifiable.

According to the DOJ Police have more than 50 million encounters with citizens every year, traffic stops, domestic violence, burglaries etc etc. Any of these encounters can turn violent. Of course you would like for the number to be zero, but Police killings of unarmed citizens are statistically insignificant compared to the number of encounters.

So chance of unarmed civilian being killed by Police = 41/50,000,000 = 0.00000082

In 1999, the Institute of Medicine published the famous “To Err Is Human” report, which dropped a bombshell on the medical community by reporting that up to 98,000 people a year die because of mistakes in hospitals. The number was initially disputed, but is now widely accepted by doctors and hospital officials — and quoted ubiquitously in the media. More recent studies estimate the number is now more than 200,000 per year.

How Many Die From Medical Mistakes in U.S. Hospitals? — ProPublica (https://www.propublica.org/article/how-many-die-from-medical-mistakes-in-us-hospitals)

Average number of hospitalizations per year in US is 36,000,000

so chance of being killed by medical error is 200,000/36,000,000 = 0.00555

A small chance, but much much larger than Police chance

You can say well Doctors don't kill people on purpose, these are mistakes. Same can be said for Police, in a few cases they might be convicted of murder, but mostly they are ruled as manslaughter or excessive use of force. If Police really wanted to kill a lot of people of any race they could, they are armed and good shots. The miniscule numbers of this actually happening are statistically insignificant.

Do Doctors ever kill on purpose? Unfortunately they do.

Ohio doctor charged with 25 counts of murdering patients with fatal doses of fentanyl.
His trial has been delayed because of covid, so we will see what a jury says about this.
That's just one Doctor who killed more than 50% of what Police did last year.

How many Doctors go to jail every year for malpractice or murder? Do they avoid prosecution because their insurance pays out large sums?

To err is human for some but not all?

Good facts and reasoning. Unfortunately, it does not help the anarchists intent on destroying the country.

[GoodLife]

Unfortunately there is no source for "true" numbers, because the powers that be aren't interested in true numbers. NY State health dept. spends many millions of dollars to collect this data, so the last thing they want is for the data to show nothing of significance.

Perhaps our problem is that the comparison between medical "mistakes" and police deaths is apples and oranges. I agree with your point that the number of deaths caused by police is very small compared to the number of interactions the police have with citizens. And the media is quick to overlook that in the recent highly publicized deaths, the victims all were resisting arrest. If they had just followed the instructions of the LEO's, as they are required to do by law, they would be alive today. That's no excuse for the indifferent use of excessive force displayed by the officers involved in those cases, but if you don't go swimming in the ocean, you don't get eaten by sharks.

Correct. I also think most of the armchair quarterbacks posting here about Police brutality have no idea what it is like to be one, especially in high crime areas.

[Byte1]

Y

Why do other minorities thrive that were never slaves? That didn't have the same history?

It's funny that your comment will stand as the last word and mine will get deleted. Who says white privilege doesn't exist. Come to TV and see it for yourself.

No one in the states has been a "slave" in America. Being black is not an excuse for failure. It's not a reason for failure. It is more like an accusation against others for their failure. I do not care if someone says they have friends that are black or that they had neighbors or coworkers that were black. Coming from a multi-ethnicity family, I don't make excuses for my failures and do not sympathize with anyone else in my family for their failures. A failure is something temporary whereas a loser is one that refuses to pick themselves back up when they have a momentary failure. History is full of those that failed and later became successful. Slavery is NOT an excuse for today's people.

"White privilege?" How does the Villages prove "white privilege?" There are a lot of folks in the Villages that are on a very limited and fixed income. Being "white" is not being "privileged." Making excuses for someone's failure to pick themselves up and better themselves does not help them. Throwing money at the situation does not solve the problem. One does not expect an opportunity to drop in their lap. One seeks the opportunity and proves they deserve or qualify for the opportunity.

Being "white" is not a privilege, it's a fact of genetics/DNA. Driving is a "privilege." To say that being "white" is special is being RACIST. Someone saying they lived near, with or as a black is presuming black is on a lower level than white and therefore is another indication of racism.

Jesus died on the cross so that ALL LIVES MATTER.

[Doc Akron]

What a really inane comparison. Use a little bit of common sense.

[LoisR]

You're just making excuses for abusive police. Even one aggressive bigoted cop is too many. Police need better training, need to hire college graduates only, realize that even one abusive or racist incident is grounds for termination, and limit those with famiy backgrounds in law enforcement.

[Byte1]

You're just making excuses for abusive police. Even one aggressive bigoted cop is too many. Police need better training, need to hire college graduates only, realize that even one abusive or racist incident is grounds for termination, and limit those with famiy backgrounds in law enforcement.

Yes, police always need better training. There is never ENOUGH training. Especially when it comes to choke holds. Choke holds have been used for decades and used successfully to subdue violent suspects. If done properly, they are safer than using a taser. Chokes are used in Judo competition, even in the Olympics. BUT, if one does it improperly it can be fatal. Personally, I do not like choke holds but then again I do not like to see officers of the law killed by violent suspects either. Since the ratio of abusive or bad cops to good cops is sooo small I see this only as another political push in an election year. It is NOT a racial thing or you would see many more incidents with minorities than whites. Many police departments DO require college studies for hiring or send their candidates to a local college for learning. But, there is also the point that police depts do not pay well enough to hire those with higher education. It is unfortunate that there are those officers that are abusive. That is not even close to the norm and should not be construed as such. Having family that is in or has been in law enforcement should have absolutely NO bearing on hiring.
Remember, you only get what you pay for.

[jacksonbrown]

Unfortunately many cops are racist and enjoy murdering blacks.

And, that's what we have come to expect from a newly registered member with two posts.

Fess up. What's your other User Name?

[roscoguy]

Looks like WAPO updated their numbers. So in 2019 55 unarmed people were killed, 15 Black and 25 White.
Just to be clear, 55 unarmed people were shot to death by police; there were 114 unarmed people killed in all.
WAPO also said

“The number of black and unarmed people fatally shot by police has declined since 2015." (by 60%)

Which is at least some sort of progress & there was relatively little hubbub until Floyd's death. The spark that lit this flame seems to be the attitude of Officer Chauvin shown in the video, plus the fact that he used the neck restraint for no good reason to begin with & then kept the pressure on until way after George Floyd quit breathing. It seems to me to be easy to understand why people were incensed by this video and how it reopened old wounds. (Once again: I am NOT justifying rioting or looting!)
The point of this post is to show the scale of these issues. Whether it's Doctors or nurses etc, several well known entities like John Hopkins have found that over 200,000 die each year due to medical errors.
It's an obvious tragedy that so many die from medical errors, but it's just not the same thing at all. You seem hellbent on denying or at least ignoring the racial/racist component of the whole George Floyd issue. This has been beaten around ad nauseum on numerous threads, many of which you've started and/or commented on. Why keep picking at the same scab, day after day after day?

[Byte1]

"You seem hellbent on denying or at least ignoring the racial/racist component of the whole George Floyd issue."

Is there evidence that the death was racially motivated? Isn't the presumption that it was racist by someone, make them the racist?

Booker T Washington:
“There is another class of coloured people who make a business of keeping the troubles, the wrongs, and the hardships of the Negro race before the public. Having learned that they are able to make a living out of their troubles, they have grown into the settled habit of advertising their wrongs — partly because they want sympathy and partly because it pays. Some of these people do not want the Negro to lose his grievances, because they do not want to lose their jobs.”

"There is a certain class of race problem-solvers who don't want the patient to get well, because as long as the disease holds out they have not only an easy means of making a living, but also an easy medium through which to make themselves prominent before the public."

[Bikeracer2009]

"Being black is not an excuse for being a failure" and "white privilege"

Looking at some numbers that tell a different story.

Facts come from sentencingproject.org

“The war on drugs and harsher sentencing policies, including mandatory minimum sentences, fueled a rapid expansion in the nation’s prison population beginning in the 80’s. The resulting burden on the public sector led to the modern emergence of for-profit private prisons in many states and at the federal level.”

The facts presented on this website state the following;

The United States has the largest private prison population.
This includes immigration detention facilities.
Private prisons pay far less, train less and have higher numbers of riots, deaths, contraband, lockdowns and discipline.
Recidivism is much higher with private prisons.
Profit seeking creates a race to the bottom to cut cost.
The two largest private prison corporations are Core Civic and GEO.
These two companies also own halfway houses, ankle bracelet monitoring company and prison healthcare services.
The Obama administration wanted to phase out private contracts which showed a modest decline in in private prison use however, in 2017 Jeff Sessions announced the reversal of this plan. This reversal was followed by prosecutors seeking tougher sentences.
Immigration detention centers are required to maintain 34,000 detainees. 2018 Trump asked Congress for $1.2 Billion to add another 15,000 beds
U.S. General Accounting Office study showed no substantial savings using private prisons.
In order to insure future profits, private prison companies have joined with lawmakers, corporations and interest groups to advocate for mandatory minimum sentences, three strikes laws and truth-in-sentencing, all of which contribute to higher prison populations.
GEO is the biggest contributor to Trump’s cash flow. I’m not attacking Trump. Many politicians are receiving cash payment from private prison companies.

40 years of unprecedented growth in our prison population, fracturing of low-income communities of color, laws meant to keep prison beds full, no incentive to rehabilitate prisoners and less chances of getting a good job after prison. This is the revolving door of our prison system.

Between 1980 and 2015 the number of people incarcerated in America increased from from roughly 500,000 to over 2.2 million.
21% of the world’s prison population is in America but America only has 5% of the world’s population.
1 in 37 adults is under correctional supervision.
Blacks and Hispanics are 56% of the prison population.
4 times as many whites use drugs than blacks but blacks have 6 times more drug charges.

Imagine being a poor black child in America. You’re told that the police want to put you in jail. The police presence in your neighborhood is much higher than in middle class white neighborhoods. When a white person sees a police car drive through his neighborhood he probably thinks it’s a good thing and when a black person sees a cop they think the cops are looking to round up some prisoner$$. Stop and frisk laws require citizens to stop and tell a police officer their name. Florida Statute 901.151 if you want to look it up. A cop can detain you if they believe you have committed a crime, was committing a crime or was about to commit a crime.

Now, imagine you’re a 23 year old black guy walking down the street in Aurora Colorado and you haven’t done anything wrong. The police stop you and ask for your identification. You ask why? You are now resisting and so the cop gets annoyed and this leads to him being a little heavy handed. It’s Obvious to you that this isn’t going to end well. You tell him you want to cooperate but just want to know why he stopped you. He grabs you and tries to take you to the ground. You tell him that you’re an introverted person, just different and just want to be left alone. The cop puts you in a chokehold as backup arrives. You tell them you can’t breathe as you lay there face down unable to move. They put you in handcuffs and called first responders to inject you with a ketamine. You suffer a heart attack on the way to the hospital and days later you are brain dead. Your name is Elijah McClain.

There's billions of dollars being made by putting people of all colors in prison and keeping them there for as long as possible, especially the black population.

Would you want to be a poor black person?

Being white has its privileges here in the villages. A person posted recently that a person came to her door selling roofing services. She stated that the person's race wasn't something she wanted to mention because of the political environment but we all knew what race she was talking about. This guy didn't do anything wrong according to her own story but she insisted he was a scammer! She told him to leave her property and followed him to the neighbors door where she advised her neighbor not to trust this person. As it turned out from the replies to her post, this young man was not a criminal but an honest guy just doing his job. The only thing this guy did wrong was being born black.

[Cybersprings]

You seem hellbent on denying or at least ignoring the racial/racist component of the whole George Floyd issue. This has been beaten around ad nauseum on numerous threads, many of which you've started and/or commented on. Why keep picking at the same scab, day after day after day?

Throughout this whole thing, I have missed the evidence that this was racist/racially motivated.
Can you please point me to anything that indicates this was a racist cop and not just a cop that used excessive force against someone?

[roscoguy]

"You seem hellbent on denying or at least ignoring the racial/racist component of the whole George Floyd issue."

Is there evidence that the death was racially motivated? Isn't the presumption that it was racist by someone, make them the racist?

Booker T Washington:
“There is another class of coloured people who make a business of keeping the troubles, the wrongs, and the hardships of the Negro race before the public. Having learned that they are able to make a living out of their troubles, they have grown into the settled habit of advertising their wrongs — partly because they want sympathy and partly because it pays. Some of these people do not want the Negro to lose his grievances, because they do not want to lose their jobs.”

"There is a certain class of race problem-solvers who don't want the patient to get well, because as long as the disease holds out they have not only an easy means of making a living, but also an easy medium through which to make themselves prominent before the public."

Come on, read what I say, not how you'd like to spin it. The "whole George Floyd issue" is NOT only about whether or not not his death was brought about by a racist cop. It is about police racism blacks experience in everyday life. The video of George Floyd's death, with the seemingly cavalier attitude of Officer Chauvin while George kept saying that he couldn't breathe & then calling for his mother were only the spark.

The 100+ year old quote means what exactly? That there is no such thing as racism in the 21st century? Booker T. Washington had many great, optimistic quotes attributed to him. He may well have had other thoughts had he lived through most of the Jim Crow days.

[roscoguy]

Throughout this whole thing, I have missed the evidence that this was racist/racially motivated.
Can you please point me to anything that indicates this was a racist cop and not just a cop that used excessive force against someone?

Sorry, I missed the part where I said that Officer Chauvin was a proven racist...

[Biggles]

The media story is that George Floyd died from asphyxiation—“I can’t breathe”—from a police officer’s knee on his neck. This story is not supported by the autopsy and toxicology reports.
The autopsy report says Floyd died of a heart attack and that no life-threatening injuries were inflicted by police restraint. The medical examiner found no physical evidence to “support a diagnosis of traumatic asphyxia or strangulation.” The toxicology report says that the concentration of Fentanyl in Floyd’s blood was more than three times the fatal dose. Fentanyl is a dangerous opioid. Reports that the coroner ruled Floyd’s death a homicide are incorrect. The word “homicide” does not appear in the report.
As for Floyd’s neck, the autopsy report states there are “no areas of contusion or hemorrhage . . . The cervical spinal column is palpably stable and free of hemorrhage.”
Excited Delirium Syndrome (EXD) typically results from fatal drug overdose. The condition results in breathing problems and cardiopulmonary arrest. These were the symptoms that Floyd showed.
The full Coroner Report can be found by clicking on the following link:
https://www.hennepin.us/-/media/hennepinus/residents/public-safety/documents/Autopsy_2020-3700_Floyd.pdf

[golfing eagles]

[QUOTE=Bikeracer2009;1795909

Now, imagine you’re a 23 year old black guy walking down the street in Aurora Colorado and you haven’t done anything wrong. The police stop you and ask for your identification. You ask why? You are now resisting and so the cop gets annoyed and this leads to him being a little heavy handed. It’s Obvious to you that this isn’t going to end well. You tell him you want to cooperate but just want to know why he stopped you. He grabs you and tries to take you to the ground. You tell him that you’re an introverted person, just different and just want to be left alone. The cop puts you in a chokehold as backup arrives. You tell them you can’t breathe as you lay there face down unable to move. They put you in handcuffs and called first responders to inject you with a ketamine. You suffer a heart attack on the way to the hospital and days later you are brain dead. Your name is Elijah McClain.

[/QUOTE]

How about you comply with the officer's instruction to show your ID, as required by law, instead of being a wise a$$. Then none of the subsequent events occur.

[Gulfcoast]

Come on, read what I say, not how you'd like to spin it. The "whole George Floyd issue" is NOT only about whether or not not his death was brought about by a racist cop. It is about police racism blacks experience in everyday life. The video of George Floyd's death, with the seemingly cavalier attitude of Officer Chauvin while George kept saying that he couldn't breathe & then calling for his mother were only the spark.

The 100+ year old quote means what exactly? That there is no such thing as racism in the 21st century? Booker T. Washington had many great, optimistic quotes attributed to him. He may well have had other thoughts had he lived through most of the Jim Crow days.

Anyone watching that video was appalled. I have yet to hear one person defend that officer's restraint method. Floyd was on drugs and had not been particularly cooperative with the officer. But more telling, and something that we did not know right away, is Chauvin had a second night job as a bouncer (I think) where Floyd was also employed and the two men did not like each other. So there was a personal level to this incident as well.

Again, no one is defending Chauvin kneeling on Floyd's neck like that for so long. That was outrageous and wrong. BUT, I also do not think that this incident is a matter of cut and dry racism, either, because Floyd had been somewhat resistant with the officer and these two men personally did not like each other.

Chauvin should have stepped aside and let the other officers handle Floyd's arrest.

[Gulfcoast]

Floyd had more than 3 times the lethal dose of Fentanyl in his blood. He was getting ready to drive off in a car when the officers ordered him out of his vehicle. He was absolutely a threat to not only himself but his 2 passengers and every other driver on the road. His arrest was absolutely justified. It was the type of restraint used by officer Chauvin that is in question.

[Moderator]

This thread has strayed far from the original topic. Please return to that topic or the thread will be closed.

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[Byte1]

Gotta say, this just sounds like more excuses for bad behavior.
A kid acts up at the dinner table in front of guests. The parent says "just ignore him, he's going through his terrible twos." A kid acts up at the table in front of guests and the parent says "ignore him, he's going through puberty." A kid acts up at school and the parent says "its the other kids that are a bad influence on him." A kid commits a crime and liberals say "he came from a ghetto and he is from a fatherless home." Who's fault is it? Is it the deviant or those that coddle and make excuses?
Then we start discussing prisons. How prisons are responsible for the "black plight" one can only imagine. Another excuse for bad behavior.
A statement that suggests that "laws were created to keep prison beds full" is irresponsible blather. Laws were made to inform citizens that bad behavior is not tolerated. Prisons would be empty if not for criminal activity. Making an irresponsible statement like that is the same as saying that hospitals were made to create more sick people.
Another statement that prisons are a "cash flow" for Trump makes it sound like Trump is profiting from prisons. I would be interested in seeing proof of such profiting, and do not consider campaign contributions to be "profiting."
I still have not seen any indication that being "white" in The Villages is an indication of "white privilege." Being born a particular color is not a "privilege." Perhaps someone needs to remind folks of definitions from time to time so that they do not get stuck in the habit of repeating popular misconceptions.
Privilege: a special right, advantage, or immunity granted or available only to a particular person or group.
In today's America, what "privilege" does a white person have that the black person does not? This is rhetorical question because the proper answer does not include IMPLIED privilege. There are minority residents in The Villages, so that kind of shuts down the argument that Villagers share "white privilege." I have seen nothing in writing the stipulates that The Villages is a "white" community or that there is a quota for minorities.
Living in The Villages does not make one a "racist." Are there racist living in The Villages? Probably. I have not seen anything denying residency in the Villages to racists.
Nope, misusing a race based term as a slur is irresponsible.
Last night, I was browsing YouTube and came across a video by Ms.Owens. She made an interesting statement that I believe is undeniable and very distressing. She said in a nutshell that the Black community protects, honors and martyrs criminal behavior by other blacks. She went on to say that NO other minority group or whites act like this, and actually ostracize criminal behavior. She said that the black community honors the lowest of character while the rest of the country honors the best, successful or highest character. Until the black community admits that it has a problem, no amount of money, special quotas or benefits are going to change those problems. And excuses aren't helping either.

"Being black is not an excuse for being a failure" and "white privilege"

Looking at some numbers that tell a different story.

Facts come from sentencingproject.org

“The war on drugs and harsher sentencing policies, including mandatory minimum sentences, fueled a rapid expansion in the nation’s prison population beginning in the 80’s. The resulting burden on the public sector led to the modern emergence of for-profit private prisons in many states and at the federal level.”

The facts presented on this website state the following;

The United States has the largest private prison population.
This includes immigration detention facilities.
Private prisons pay far less, train less and have higher numbers of riots, deaths, contraband, lockdowns and discipline.
Recidivism is much higher with private prisons.
Profit seeking creates a race to the bottom to cut cost.
The two largest private prison corporations are Core Civic and GEO.
These two companies also own halfway houses, ankle bracelet monitoring company and prison healthcare services.
The Obama administration wanted to phase out private contracts which showed a modest decline in in private prison use however, in 2017 Jeff Sessions announced the reversal of this plan. This reversal was followed by prosecutors seeking tougher sentences.
Immigration detention centers are required to maintain 34,000 detainees. 2018 Trump asked Congress for $1.2 Billion to add another 15,000 beds
U.S. General Accounting Office study showed no substantial savings using private prisons.
In order to insure future profits, private prison companies have joined with lawmakers, corporations and interest groups to advocate for mandatory minimum sentences, three strikes laws and truth-in-sentencing, all of which contribute to higher prison populations.
GEO is the biggest contributor to Trump’s cash flow. I’m not attacking Trump. Many politicians are receiving cash payment from private prison companies.

40 years of unprecedented growth in our prison population, fracturing of low-income communities of color, laws meant to keep prison beds full, no incentive to rehabilitate prisoners and less chances of getting a good job after prison. This is the revolving door of our prison system.

Between 1980 and 2015 the number of people incarcerated in America increased from from roughly 500,000 to over 2.2 million.
21% of the world’s prison population is in America but America only has 5% of the world’s population.
1 in 37 adults is under correctional supervision.
Blacks and Hispanics are 56% of the prison population.
4 times as many whites use drugs than blacks but blacks have 6 times more drug charges.

Imagine being a poor black child in America. You’re told that the police want to put you in jail. The police presence in your neighborhood is much higher than in middle class white neighborhoods. When a white person sees a police car drive through his neighborhood he probably thinks it’s a good thing and when a black person sees a cop they think the cops are looking to round up some prisoner$$. Stop and frisk laws require citizens to stop and tell a police officer their name. Florida Statute 901.151 if you want to look it up. A cop can detain you if they believe you have committed a crime, was committing a crime or was about to commit a crime.

Now, imagine you’re a 23 year old black guy walking down the street in Aurora Colorado and you haven’t done anything wrong. The police stop you and ask for your identification. You ask why? You are now resisting and so the cop gets annoyed and this leads to him being a little heavy handed. It’s Obvious to you that this isn’t going to end well. You tell him you want to cooperate but just want to know why he stopped you. He grabs you and tries to take you to the ground. You tell him that you’re an introverted person, just different and just want to be left alone. The cop puts you in a chokehold as backup arrives. You tell them you can’t breathe as you lay there face down unable to move. They put you in handcuffs and called first responders to inject you with a ketamine. You suffer a heart attack on the way to the hospital and days later you are brain dead. Your name is Elijah McClain.

There's billions of dollars being made by putting people of all colors in prison and keeping them there for as long as possible, especially the black population.

Would you want to be a poor black person?

Being white has its privileges here in the villages. A person posted recently that a person came to her door selling roofing services. She stated that the person's race wasn't something she wanted to mention because of the political environment but we all knew what race she was talking about. This guy didn't do anything wrong according to her own story but she insisted he was a scammer! She told him to leave her property and followed him to the neighbors door where she advised her neighbor not to trust this person. As it turned out from the replies to her post, this young man was not a criminal but an honest guy just doing his job. The only thing this guy did wrong was being born black.

[Bikeracer2009]

How about you comply with the officer's instruction to show your ID, as required by law, instead of being a wise a$$. Then none of the subsequent events occur.
“Comply with the police and stop being a wise a$$”

There’s a 3 hour video of the entire event from the time McClain purchased food while dressed for the cool late night Colorado weather. McClain was anemic, low body weight and was often cold. The 911 caller said that McClain had done nothing wrong but he looked suspicious wearing a mask. The police are dispatched and the video picks up from various police body cams.

McClain is seen walking with his grocies on the sidewalk holding his cellphone which is playing music. The video shows 3 officers run up to him saying “stop right there”. McClain lifts his phone to turn down the volume as the police office grabs his right arm which is holding the phone. McClain is heard saying “you have no right to stop me” “I was just turning down my music so I could hear you”. I guess this “wise a$$” has just earned a death sentence.

The officer later states that when he grabbed McClain “he tensed up and I told him to relax or I’m going to have to change this situation”. In the video McClain is complying and says “let go of me”. The office says “No, stop tensing up”. McClain says “I am an introvert, respect the boundaries I’m speaking”. “I was turning my music down so I could hear you.” They force him to the ground and repeatedly say “relax”, “stop dude”. You don’t see him but you hear him grunting as the police call in backup “Send more units, we’re fighting him!”. You can hear McCain sobbing as they cuff him. Begging them to stop, “I can’t breathe” and apologizing for not having an I.D. He tells them his full name and continues to beg them to stop while sobbing and struggling to breath. I guess struggling to breathe is also resisting arrest and being a wise a$$.

McClain was facing 5 years in prison and he knew it. Like most poor blacks know first-hand that when the police ask for backup the police also bring with them an a$$ whopping. The police supervisor is seen waving his arms around asking if McClain had done any other than being suspicious? The entire block is lit up with squad cars. A female cop calls the 911 caller back to ask what happened? The guy said McClain did nothing wrong but looked suspicious. The female cop and another cop look around and say “I think we have enough police on this call” and laugh.

It’s painfully obvious that McClain is a troubled young man as he lays on the ground sobbing and telling the police he’s not a bad person and that he just wanted to go home. You here the police talking about McClain going for an officer’s gun. You hear McClain say sorry I was just moving my arm so I could breathe as they talk about the charges they’re going to pin on him. You don’t see McClain but you hear a cop tell him as nothing seems to be going on that “if you keep messing around I’m going to bring my dog over here”. McClain responds struggling to say I can’t breathe”. The officers keep saying “stop fighting us” as McClain shifts around to breathe. Keep in mind there’s no noise of a struggle. The police are casually talking to other officers on the scene about the moves they put on him. A hammer lock and maybe they should put a figure 4 on him now. The female officer is heard saying “he just had a mask on and that’s it”

[dewilson58]

The media story is that George Floyd died from asphyxiation—“I can’t breathe”—from a police officer’s knee on his neck. This story is not supported by the autopsy and toxicology reports.
The autopsy report says Floyd died of a heart attack and that no life-threatening injuries were inflicted by police restraint. The medical examiner found no physical evidence to “support a diagnosis of traumatic asphyxia or strangulation.” The toxicology report says that the concentration of Fentanyl in Floyd’s blood was more than three times the fatal dose. Fentanyl is a dangerous opioid. Reports that the coroner ruled Floyd’s death a homicide are incorrect. The word “homicide” does not appear in the report.
As for Floyd’s neck, the autopsy report states there are “no areas of contusion or hemorrhage . . . The cervical spinal column is palpably stable and free of hemorrhage.”
Excited Delirium Syndrome (EXD) typically results from fatal drug overdose. The condition results in breathing problems and cardiopulmonary arrest. These were the symptoms that Floyd showed.
The full Coroner Report can be found by clicking on the following link:
https://www.hennepin.us/-/media/hennepinus/residents/public-safety/documents/Autopsy_2020-3700_Floyd.pdf


I may have missed it........it's been very quite........what did the family autopsy indicate.

(not that i'm relying on, just wondering what the paid doctor said)

[Byte1]

And your evidence is???? Sorry, but someone using racism out of context is the same as using sexism as an excuse for being fired for incompetence. That dog don't hunt.

Still, no evidence that this was anything more than excessive force by an over zealous COP. Considering the fact that out of four COPS on the scene, only two were white makes it interesting, no?


Come on, read what I say, not how you'd like to spin it. The "whole George Floyd issue" is NOT only about whether or not not his death was brought about by a racist cop. It is about police racism blacks experience in everyday life. The video of George Floyd's death, with the seemingly cavalier attitude of Officer Chauvin while George kept saying that he couldn't breathe & then calling for his mother were only the spark.

The 100+ year old quote means what exactly? That there is no such thing as racism in the 21st century? Booker T. Washington had many great, optimistic quotes attributed to him. He may well have had other thoughts had he lived through most of the Jim Crow days.

[Byte1]

I may have missed it........it's been very quite........what did the family autopsy indicate.

(not that i'm relying on, just wondering what the paid doctor said)

That Floyd was dead. I believe it was something like "suicide by COP."

[golfing eagles]

“Comply with the police and stop being a wise a$$”



McClain is seen walking with his grocies on the sidewalk holding his cellphone which is playing music. The video shows 3 officers run up to him saying “stop right there”. McClain lifts his phone to turn down the volume as the police office grabs his right arm which is holding the phone. McClain is heard saying “you have no right to stop me” “I was just turning down my music so I could hear you”. I guess this “wise a$$” has just earned a death sentence.



You just proved my point. He needed to stop and show his ID, NOT start a debate.

[blueash]

The media story is that George Floyd died from asphyxiation—“I can’t breathe”—from a police officer’s knee on his neck. This story is not supported by the autopsy and toxicology reports.
The autopsy report says Floyd died of a heart attack and that no life-threatening injuries were inflicted by police restraint. The medical examiner found no physical evidence to “support a diagnosis of traumatic asphyxia or strangulation.” The toxicology report says that the concentration of Fentanyl in Floyd’s blood was more than three times the fatal dose. Fentanyl is a dangerous opioid. Reports that the coroner ruled Floyd’s death a homicide are incorrect. The word “homicide” does not appear in the report.
As for Floyd’s neck, the autopsy report states there are “no areas of contusion or hemorrhage . . . The cervical spinal column is palpably stable and free of hemorrhage.”
Excited Delirium Syndrome (EXD) typically results from fatal drug overdose. The condition results in breathing problems and cardiopulmonary arrest. These were the symptoms that Floyd showed.
The full Coroner Report can be found by clicking on the following link:
https://www.hennepin.us/-/media/hennepinus/residents/public-safety/documents/Autopsy_2020-3700_Floyd.pdf

You did a great job of linking the autopsy report but not of understanding it. He did not have three times the fatal dose of fentanyl. I have no idea where you come up with that number but it is wrong. Your claim that the word homicide does not appear in the physical autopsy report is correct. That is a report of physical and lab findings. It is not the report of cause of death. As your entire premise is that he died from a drug overdose and heart attack and that the officers just happened to be there I offer you the actual image and link to the report, not from the private pathologist who did a second autopsy, but from the medical examiner's office who did the first one and to which you linked.. READ THIS (https://content.govdelivery.com/attachments/MNHENNE/2020/06/01/file_attachments/1464238/2020-3700%20Floyd,%20George%20Perry%20Update%206.1.2020 .pdf) For those who do not click on links I will post a snip of the highlight which lists the official cause of death of Mr. Lloyd.

Cause of death: Cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual,
restraint, and neck compression
Manner of death: Homicide [my font]

Note that the use of the term homicide by a medical examiner is not a legal finding but a medical one. That means Mr. Lloyd was killed, he did not die of natural causes or of a drug overdose. If you wish to educate yourself about excited delirium and how it does not apply to Mr. Lloyd, read THIS (https://www.medpagetoday.com/blogs/working-stiff/86913) from MedpageToday.com

[Byte1]

You did a great job of linking the autopsy report but not of understanding it. He did not have three times the fatal dose of fentanyl. I have no idea where you come up with that number but it is wrong. Your claim that the word homicide does not appear in the physical autopsy report is correct. That is a report of physical and lab findings. It is not the report of cause of death. As your entire premise is that he died from a drug overdose and heart attack and that the officers just happened to be there I offer you the actual image and link to the report, not from the private pathologist who did a second autopsy, but from the medical examiner's office who did the first one and to which you linked.. READ THIS (https://content.govdelivery.com/attachments/MNHENNE/2020/06/01/file_attachments/1464238/2020-3700%20Floyd,%20George%20Perry%20Update%206.1.2020 .pdf) For those who do not click on links I will post a snip of the highlight which lists the official cause of death of Mr. Lloyd.



Note that the use of the term homicide by a medical examiner is not a legal finding but a medical one. That means Mr. Lloyd was killed, he did not die of natural causes or of a drug overdose. If you wish to educate yourself about excited delirium and how it does not apply to Mr. Lloyd, read THIS (https://www.medpagetoday.com/blogs/working-stiff/86913) from MedpageToday.com

"How injury occurred: Decedent experienced a cardiopulmonary arrest while being restrained by law enforcement officer(s)
Other significant conditions: Arteriosclerotic and hypertensive heart disease; fentanyl intoxication; recent methamphetamine use"

Hmm, it does help to include pertinent information. Did anyone see anything in the report that indicates that the perp died from being choked to death?

"No life-threatening injuries identified
A.No facial, oral mucosal, or conjunctival petechiae
B.No injuries of anterior muscles of neck or laryngeal structures
C.No scalp soft tissue, skull, or brain injuries
D.No chest wall soft tissue injuries, rib fractures (other than a single rib fracture from CPR), vertebral column injuries, or visceral injuries
E.Incision and subcutaneous dissection of posterior and lateral neck, shoulders, back, flanks, and buttocks negative for occult trauma"

The video looks bad but there is no evidence that Floyd died from injuries sustained. Case closed.

[Moderator]

This thread remains off topic. It is now closed.

Moderator