Vaccine "Passports"?

[LiverpoolWalrus]

I'd like to respectfully throw something out there for discussion and perhaps we can learn a bit from each other.

Our governor has said he will prohibit vaccine passports which would require us to prove we've been vaccinated in order to gain access to some businesses, offices, or restaurants.

I find it interesting because it speaks to how we all want the best for our country; we just approach it in different ways. Conservatives are not fond of government interference in general, but they support this proposal to ban vaccine passports. Liberals are generally okay with government regulation but do indeed want a vaccine passport which DeSantis is opposing, and as such, DeSantis is in favor of imposing government regulation.

Just goes to show modern American life is not all cut and dried. We all have to give a little.

If you want to respond but feel the need to be belligerent or snarky, please move on to the next thread. Thanks.

Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis Says He'll Ban Vaccine Passports (https://www.businessinsider.com/florida-governor-ron-desantis-will-ban-vaccine-passports-2021-3)

[John41]

How do you deal with people that have not been vaccinated but have herd immunity or have recovered from COVID 19.. Just testing them once for COVID 19 would not be enough.

[C. C. Rider]

The idea of "vaccine passports" is contradictory with what the vaccine advocates contend is true. They contend that people who get the vaccine will be safe from catching and transmitting the virus. If this premise is true, then they should have no worry about being around someone who hasn't had the vaccine. Perhaps the person had the virus and recovered with no problems... in which case, their immunity is probably as good as someone who had the vaccine. Even if they haven't had the virus, the unvaccinated person is the one at greater risk by being there than the vaccinated person, so why should they be prohibited from any public place?

[C. C. Rider]

To expand on what I said above, if an individual feels that they are particularly vulnerable to the virus, then why wouldn't it be THEIR responsibility to stay out of public places or take extra precautions such as double masking in order to protect themselves? Why should someone whose personal risk level from the virus is way less than 1% be prohibited from being in a public place just because some particularly vulnerable person doesn't feel safe?

Shouldn't self protection be the primary responsibility of the individual rather than placing the burden upon society to protect them by giving up their own freedoms?

[golfing eagles]

To expand on what I said above, if an individual feels that they are particularly vulnerable to the virus, then why wouldn't it be THEIR responsibility to stay out of public places or take extra precautions such as double masking in order to protect themselves? Why should someone whose personal risk level from the virus is way less than 1% be prohibited from being in a public place just because some particularly vulnerable person doesn't feel safe?

Shouldn't self protection be the primary responsibility of the individual rather than placing the burden upon society to protect them by giving up their own freedoms?

If this was just an individual issue, I would agree with you. However, all these policies and procedures were instituted to minimize a worldwide pandemic that could have killed hundreds of millions. There is a huge difference between public health measures and individual health.

[G.R.I.T.S.]

I'd like to respectfully throw something out there for discussion and perhaps we can learn a bit from each other.

Our governor has said he will prohibit vaccine passports which would require us to prove we've been vaccinated in order to gain access to some businesses, offices, or restaurants.

I find it interesting because it speaks to how we all want the best for our country; we just approach it in different ways. Conservatives are not fond of government interference in general, but they support this proposal. Liberals are generally okay with government regulation but do indeed want a vaccine passport which DeSantis is opposing.

Just goes to show modern American life is not all cut and dried. We all have to give a little.

If you want to respond but feel the need to be belligerent or snarky, please move on to the next thread. Thanks.

Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis Says He'll Ban Vaccine Passports (https://www.businessinsider.com/florida-governor-ron-desantis-will-ban-vaccine-passports-2021-3)

I foresee vaccine passports for more than just covid. Yes, children are required to be vaccinated to enter school, but what about for HPV? Flu? Shingles? I'm sure there's more. Where is the line drawn? No, I'm not a supporter.

[EdFNJ]

I foresee vaccine passports for more than just covid. Yes, children are required to be vaccinated to enter school, but what about for HPV? Flu? Shingles? I'm sure there's more. Where is the line drawn? No, I'm not a supporter.
Puhleeese! The "line is to be drawn" would be at COVID and only COVID which is currently the ONLY international pandemic still spreading worldwide and the only one in 100 years. None of your other examples are even close to what is happening.

In any case, my opinion to the question asked is I don't care either way whether they do or don't. Not really a BFD. All our personal information is available everywhere with just a little effort so this wouldn't matter 1 iota.

[Tmarkwald]

I foresee vaccine passports for more than just covid. Yes, children are required to be vaccinated to enter school, but what about for HPV? Flu? Shingles? I'm sure there's more. Where is the line drawn? No, I'm not a supporter.

naw, you are missing the point. Covid, a worldwide pandemic, has killed more people in 12 months than HPV, Flu, Shingles, etc has in 50 years.

And many countries will require it anyway - plus airlines, cruiseships, etc...

Reality is, I'm a fan of the Governor, but this policy - having the vaccine and the passport - is the fastest way to get the world on track

[blueash]

How do you deal with people that have not been vaccinated but have herd immunity or have recovered from COVID 19.. Just testing them once for COVID 19 would not be enough.

Nobody has herd immunity. The only way the herd is immune is when enough people have been immunized or have natural immunity from having been infected. Those are the only two options. As of today no one knows how long the protection from infection or immunization lasts. No one knows how well infection or immunization will protect against the mutations which are continuously emerging. But knowing the patient has been vaccinated is the best indicator we have at this point that the person is not likely to become ill or infectious. So if the public health goal is to minimize further spread of Covid and we are going to place large numbers of people in situations where we know spread is accelerated [ships, airplanes, gyms] then having a way to document who is as safe as possible to in those environments is a good public health measure.

If we had a way to produce a certificate that accurately said "This person is a reliable hand washer and will not likely spread E. coli or Hepatitis A" it would be a reasonable requirement to demand for a restaurant worker. A Covid passport would be a certificate that says "this person is unlikely to spread Covid to others" Public health does trump personal "freedom". This is the 100th anniversary of the case of Mary Mallon losing her freedom for the safety of the public.

[Tmarkwald]

Nobody has herd immunity. The only way the herd is immune is when enough people have been immunized or have natural immunity from having been infected. Those are the only two options. As of today no one knows how long the protection from infection or immunization lasts. No one knows how well infection or immunization will protect against the mutations which are continuously emerging. But knowing the patient has been vaccinated is the best indicator we have at this point that the person is not likely to become ill or infectious. So if the public health goal is to minimize further spread of Covid and we are going to place large numbers of people in situations where we know spread is accelerated [ships, airplanes, gyms] then having a way to document who is as safe as possible to in those environments is a good public health measure.

If we had a way to produce a certificate that accurately said "This person is a reliable hand washer and will not likely spread E. coli or Hepatitis A" it would be a reasonable requirement to demand for a restaurant worker. A Covid passport would be a certificate that says "this person is unlikely to spread Covid to others" Public health does trump personal "freedom". This is the 100th anniversary of the case of Mary Mallon losing her freedom for the safety of the public.

And mandatory vaccination have been upheld several times by the Supreme Court in the interest of public safety.

[Vikingjunior]

Walmart, Publix, Panera etc. can't even enforce their mask requirements, do you really think these businesses are going to check everybody's papers. Vaccine Passports are a pipe dream, it's never going to happen move on.

[LiverpoolWalrus]

Great responses so far but none are getting to the heart of what I intended to be the matter. And that is...in this case conservatives are supporting government regulation. And government regulation is contradictory to their guiding principles.

On the other hand, liberals, who don't mind government regulation and expect a lot of it, ironically are against this proposed government regulation.

The point is there is no black and white. Both sides want the best for our country, but we approach it differently. This is proof we overlap.

This wasn't intended to be about the pros and cons of a vaccine passport, but carry on as you wish.

[Kenswing]

Great responses so far but none are getting to the heart of what I intended to be the matter. And that is...in this case conservatives are supporting government regulation. And government regulation is contradictory to their guiding principles.

On the other hand, liberals, who don't mind government regulation and expect a lot of it, ironically are against this proposed government regulation.

The point is there is no black and white. Both sides want the best for our country, but we approach it differently. This is proof we overlap.

This wasn't intended to be about the merits, or lack of merits, of a vaccine passport.What you're looking for is a political answer in which most of us have learned our lessons by way of infractions. :1rotfl:

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Let's see if I've got this correct. We can't keep illegals from flooding into this country by the tens of thousands every day or keep the uninsured drivers off our streets and highways, but we're going to check the ID and Vaccine Passport of every person who goes into Walmart or Ace Hardware to buy some flashlight batteries or fertilizer for his lawn???? :1rotfl: :1rotfl: :1rotfl:

I guess that if a person didn't have a Vaccine Passport, they wouldn't be allowed in the grocery stores either. Guess they'd just have to go starve to death somewhere. And of course they wouldn't be allowed in the drug store to get medicine for their sick kid.

Got it. Now all we need is the Vaccine Police. :police: :clap2:

No, you do not "have it correct."

This is no different from the vaccine cards many international travelers already have, in order to do that travelling. There are countries that require you to have proof of immunity or vaccination to specific illnesses, before they'll let you in.

That's what this is about. It's about travel to and from the USA. It could also be very useful for kids going to public school - since proof of immunization is required in public school systems all over the country anyway. Might as well keep it all on one simple coded card that you can just scan whenever necessary and they'd know immediately you're not Typhoid Mary Version 2021.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Great responses so far but none are getting to the heart of what I intended to be the matter. And that is...in this case conservatives are supporting government regulation. And government regulation is contradictory to their guiding principles.

On the other hand, liberals, who don't mind government regulation and expect a lot of it, ironically are against this proposed government regulation.

The point is there is no black and white. Both sides want the best for our country, but we approach it differently. This is proof we overlap.

This wasn't intended to be about the merits, or lack of merits, of a vaccine passport.

I'm a social liberal, fiscal conservative. I'm pro-capitalism. And I think vaccine passports are an excellent idea. I'd sign up to get one if it meant a shorter wait time at the airport or at the cruise ship pre-boarding process hall.

[EdFNJ]

Vaccine Passport doesn't seem much different than TSA PreCheck, Global Entry or Clear. All their purposes are to get you through a specific point faster, more conveniently and before others without the right paperwork. I'll bet if the government charged $100 for a Vaccine Passport you'd be waiting in line for hours to get one so you can beat the wait to get on a plane or boat or bus. :1rotfl:.

[John41]

Vaccine Passport doesn't seem much different than TSA PreCheck, Global Entry or Clear. All their purposes are to get you through a specific point faster, more conveniently and before others without the right paperwork. I'll bet if the government charged $100 for a Vaccine Passport you'd be waiting in line for hours to get one so you can beat the wait to get on a plane or boat or bus. :1rotfl:.

Vaccine passport to go shopping is a whole different ballgame.

[C. C. Rider]

As of today no one knows how long the protection from infection or immunization lasts. No one knows how well infection or immunization will protect against the mutations which are continuously emerging.


Yet large numbers of people are willing to trample on and diminish EVERYONE'S liberty and freedom based on a vaccine of unproven durability and because of fear of something that at worst has taken the lives of about two-tenths of one percent of the population of this country... mostly consisting of the elderly with several comorbidities, about half of which were already in nursing homes.

How quickly and easily we give up that which so many of our ancestors fought and died to preserve. Very sad. :cry: :cry:

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Vaccine passport to go shopping is a whole different ballgame.

Vaccine passport to go shopping is only a thing invented by fringe alt-I-don't-even-know-which-end to scare people into thinking the concept of vaccine cards, WHICH ALREADY EXIST, is evil and needs to be rejected.

It's not a thing. It's fake news conspiracy nonsense.

[John41]

Let's see if I've got this correct. We can't keep illegals from flooding into this country by the tens of thousands every day or keep the uninsured drivers off our streets and highways, but we're going to check the ID and Vaccine Passport of every person who goes into Walmart or Ace Hardware to buy some flashlight batteries or fertilizer for his lawn???? :1rotfl: :1rotfl: :1rotfl:

I guess that if a person didn't have a Vaccine Passport, they wouldn't be allowed in the grocery stores either. Guess they'd just have to go starve to death somewhere. And of course they wouldn't be allowed in the drug store to get medicine for their sick kid.

Got it. Now all we need is the Vaccine Police. :police: :clap2:

And we still have to wear masks according to Fauci.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Yet large numbers of people are willing to trample on and diminish EVERYONE'S liberty and freedom based on a vaccine of unproven durability and because of fear of something that at worst has taken the lives of about two-tenths of one percent of the population of this country... mostly consisting of the elderly with several comorbidities, about half of which were already in nursing homes.

How quickly and easily we give up that which so many of our ancestors fought and died to preserve. Very sad. :cry: :cry:

It's not everyone's liberty and freedom. The vaccine cards ALREADY EXIST. Many international travelers ALREADY have them, for other vaccines. If you want to go THERE, then THOSE PEOPLE THERE want proof that you won't spread a deadly illness in their direction. You're welcome to stay where you are, no one is forcing you to go there. THEY have the freedom to say "you're not invited." So stop trying to jump on their freedom.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

And we still have to wear masks according to Fauci.

No, we don't "have to" wear masks. He recommends it. But we don't have to. Although businesses might require you to anyway. And here's the fun part: even if Fauci says "you know what - it's time. Everyone remove your masks!" businesses can STILL require that you wear them.

The State of Florida has never mandated masks. Even while Fauci urged everyone to wear them.

[EdFNJ]

And we still have to wear masks according to Fauci. As well as hundreds (thousands?) of other virologists and scientists. If you have cable TV there is more than 1 channel to watch ... and as OBB said "he doesn't and didn't say you HAVE to."

[C. C. Rider]

No, you do not "have it correct."

This is no different from the vaccine cards many international travelers already have, in order to do that travelling. There are countries that require you to have proof of immunity or vaccination to specific illnesses, before they'll let you in.

That's what this is about. It's about travel to and from the USA. It could also be very useful for kids going to public school - since proof of immunization is required in public school systems all over the country anyway. Might as well keep it all on one simple coded card that you can just scan whenever necessary and they'd know immediately you're not Typhoid Mary Version 2021.

That may be YOUR understanding of "Vaccine Passports", but it clearly isn't the topic of this thread as clearly stated by the OP when he wrote "Our governor has said he will prohibit vaccine passports which would require us to prove we've been vaccinated in order to gain access to some businesses, offices, or restaurants."

So what part of "businesses, offices, or restaurants" do you think pertains to international travel? I don't think the OP or the governor were talking about international flight... but feel free to change the subject if you like.

[LiverpoolWalrus]

Oh please, that a load of fake news. Sounds like Facebook trash.

Interesting that you say that. That's why I come to TOTV - usually, the discussion here is a bit more erudite than Facebook, that is, when people are not being condescending or snarky here. Facebook, on the other hand, is getting intolerable, imo.

That's the tradeoff as I see it. The discussions here are usually more intellectual and better written and thought out, but they are often more negative, insulting, snarky and condescending than most of what I see on Facebook.

[blueash]

The Miami Heat NBA team has proposed having two kinds of seating areas. One where all the fans have been vaccinated where seating will not be spaced out, and another area for non-vaccinated people where social distancing will be required. This plan allows a private business to increase its income and at the same time reduce risk of Covid spread in the arena. This is exactly the kind of thing DeSantis wants to prohibit and is asking for the GOP controlled legislature to make Florida law beyond his planned executive order. He also plans to prohibit any local government from having a passport plan because in this situation he doesn't believe in local control. He also will prohibit airlines from requiring a passport to fly. Flights to many destinations including Hawaii already require a negative recent Covid PCR test to fly. Nobody asked DeSantis's permission to create that requirement.

Gov. Ron DeSantis said Monday that he plans to issue an executive order banning the use of so-called “vaccine passports” by businesses or local governments.

The governor is also pressing the legislature to take a more permanent measure against any requirements that would force someone to show proof of vaccination before entering a business or traveling.

So that's where we are now in Florida.

[Dotneko]

It's not everyone's liberty and freedom. The vaccine cards ALREADY EXIST. Many international travelers ALREADY have them, for other vaccines. If you want to go THERE, then THOSE PEOPLE THERE want proof that you won't spread a deadly illness in their direction. You're welcome to stay where you are, no one is forcing you to go there. THEY have the freedom to say "you're not invited." So stop trying to jump on their freedom.

Seems to me, when I applied for my passport 40 years ago, I was not required to show anything save proof of citizenship. I can present my passport and fly to the Caribbean or Europe if the borders to that country are open. I am not required to show proof of any immunizations. I can fly anywhere within THIS country without proof of immunization.
Vaccine passports are an absurd overreaction to covid19.

[Two Bills]

The European Union is going to introduce some sort of passport for aproved vaccines and free travel in Europe.

[Girlcopper]

The idea of "vaccine passports" is contradictory with what the vaccine advocates contend is true. They contend that people who get the vaccine will be safe from catching and transmitting the virus. If this premise is true, then they should have no worry about being around someone who hasn't had the vaccine. Perhaps the person had the virus and recovered with no problems... in which case, their immunity is probably as good as someone who had the vaccine. Even if they haven't had the virus, the unvaccinated person is the one at greater risk by being there than the vaccinated person, so why should they be prohibited from any public place?
Because the unvaccinated person may come into contact with another unvaccinated person. Thats why. Plus, some people have medical reasons why they cant get the vaccine and the uvaccinated may come into contact with them. Theres many many reasons. And besides, whats the big deal getting the vaccine. There are mandatory vaccines for kids entering school so why is a vaccine for a world pandemic not a reason to get it

[Girlcopper]

To expand on what I said above, if an individual feels that they are particularly vulnerable to the virus, then why wouldn't it be THEIR responsibility to stay out of public places or take extra precautions such as double masking in order to protect themselves? Why should someone whose personal risk level from the virus is way less than 1% be prohibited from being in a public place just because some particularly vulnerable person doesn't feel safe?

Shouldn't self protection be the primary responsibility of the individual rather than placing the burden upon society to protect them by giving up their own freedoms?
Because wearing a mask doesnt protect the wearer! It protects others from them. This has been explained since the start of the pandemic

[jswirs]

I'd like to respectfully throw something out there for discussion and perhaps we can learn a bit from each other.

Our governor has said he will prohibit vaccine passports which would require us to prove we've been vaccinated in order to gain access to some businesses, offices, or restaurants.

I find it interesting because it speaks to how we all want the best for our country; we just approach it in different ways. Conservatives are not fond of government interference in general, but they support this proposal. Liberals are generally okay with government regulation but do indeed want a vaccine passport which DeSantis is opposing.

Just goes to show modern American life is not all cut and dried. We all have to give a little.

If you want to respond but feel the need to be belligerent or snarky, please move on to the next thread. Thanks.

Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis Says He'll Ban Vaccine Passports (https://www.businessinsider.com/florida-governor-ron-desantis-will-ban-vaccine-passports-2021-3)

Well, conservatives supporting the vaccine ID cards is news to me. I'm conservative, and most of my friends are as well, and none of us support the vaccine ID cards. My guess is that MOST, but not all, conservatives would NOT agree with such a proposal.

[golfing eagles]

Vaccine Passport doesn't seem much different than TSA PreCheck, Global Entry or Clear. All their purposes are to get you through a specific point faster, more conveniently and before others without the right paperwork. I'll bet if the government charged $100 for a Vaccine Passport you'd be waiting in line for hours to get one so you can beat the wait to get on a plane or boat or bus. :1rotfl:.

Is that all it means?????

Because all the buzz is that you will be REQUIRED to have one to travel, go to stadiums, restaurants etc---which IMHO is a violation of the first amendment and probably the 4th, 9th, and 10th as well

[Tmarkwald]

I'm a social liberal, fiscal conservative. I'm pro-capitalism. And I think vaccine passports are an excellent idea. I'd sign up to get one if it meant a shorter wait time at the airport or at the cruise ship pre-boarding process hall.

Agreed

And I'd be mighty irritated if my vacation was impacted by somebody who refused to get a vaccine and then got sick.

100% proof of vaccination or you don't travel. Very Simple.

[Tmarkwald]

Is that all it means?????

Because all the buzz is that you will be REQUIRED to have one to travel, go to stadiums, restaurants etc---which IMHO is a violation of the first amendment and probably the 4th, 9th, and 10th as well

Doesn't matter - it's a public health risk - hence the Supreme Count ruling thath a vaccine can be made mandatory.

[Tmarkwald]

And we still have to wear masks according to Fauci.

They want us to protect those who aren't vaccinated, in case we can carry the virus.

[Shoogley]

Wear the mask
Vaccinated or not
Till the Covid virus is no longer with us.
Work diligently at vaccinating any one who wants it.
Spoke to someone in Canada yesterday.
She will not vaccinate because it is aborted babies stuff to change our DNA.
Absolute nonsense from a very good friend.
Mask up at all times
get vaccinated or not
and shut up about it.
I'd like to respectfully throw something out there for discussion and perhaps we can learn a bit from each other.

Our governor has said he will prohibit vaccine passports which would require us to prove we've been vaccinated in order to gain access to some businesses, offices, or restaurants.

I find it interesting because it speaks to how we all want the best for our country; we just approach it in different ways. Conservatives are not fond of government interference in general, but they support this proposal. Liberals are generally okay with government regulation but do indeed want a vaccine passport which DeSantis is opposing.

Just goes to show modern American life is not all cut and dried. We all have to give a little.

If you want to respond but feel the need to be belligerent or snarky, please move on to the next thread. Thanks.

Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis Says He'll Ban Vaccine Passports (https://www.businessinsider.com/florida-governor-ron-desantis-will-ban-vaccine-passports-2021-3)

[Cobullymom]

I absolutely do not agree that we should be required to have vaccine passports for everyday life. Period we have had many viruses and contagions over the years and NEVER have we required this and I will not start now! I have worked all along through this without a vaccine and never got Covid. If a mask protects you, then why the vaccine and if the vaccine protects you why the mask. This is getting ridiculous for a virus that has a 98% survival rate.

[Cobullymom]

Doesn't matter - it's a public health risk - hence the Supreme Count ruling thath a vaccine can be made mandatory.
There is public health risks every day and has been since the beginning of time, It’s unbelievable how people have become so gullible, you could have been standing in an elevator with someone who had TB 5 years ago. It’s called brainwashed.

[Cobullymom]

Agreed

And I'd be mighty irritated if my vacation was impacted by somebody who refused to get a vaccine and then got sick.

100% proof of vaccination or you don't travel. Very Simple.
If your protected by the vaccine then why do you care? Apparently you don’t trust it..

[golfing eagles]

Agreed

And I'd be mighty irritated if my vacation was impacted by somebody who refused to get a vaccine and then got sick.

100% proof of vaccination or you don't travel. Very Simple.

Idiotic idea-----Very Simple

Why?????
Because even those that are vaccinated may be in the 5% that do not acquire immunity (or 20+% with J&J or Astra-Zeneca), and then there is the question of how long that immunity lasts. So someone gets the vaccine, gets the "passport", and then we still don't know if they are any different than the unvaccinated. And they are certainly less protected than those who had COVID and recovered, but not vaccinated.
How long is the "passport" good for? Renew every what? 3 months,6 months, year? How do you get "100% proof" that a person previously vaccinated is still immune? The "experts" tell us that the antibody test is not valid for that purpose, it is only a marker of previous infection or vaccination. (If it is like most antibody tests, immunity would be dependent upon the titer, usually a 1:32 dilution is adequate, but this is a novel virus and I don't think this has been studied)

So playing out this "passport" scenario, it would be entirely possible, even likely, that someone who has been vaccinated (but did not acquire immunity), has the paperwork to travel, shop, eat out , etc. , while the person next to him in line without the "passport" but is totally immune by virtue of previous infection is denied those privileges. Same with someone whose did acquire immunity, has the "passport", but enough time has passed that their immunity has faded.

Add to the ineffectiveness of such a "passport" plan is the enormous task of actually enforcing it. Most retail stores that currently REQUIRE a mask do not challenge customers who are not wearing one. Imagine the difficulty with something as invasive as a vaccine?

[Cobullymom]

Well, conservatives supporting the vaccine ID cards is news to me. I'm conservative, and most of my friends are as well, and none of us support the vaccine ID cards. My guess is that MOST, but not all, conservatives would NOT agree with such a proposal.
Absolutely agree, I will not be forced to get a vaccine card...never..

[Tmarkwald]

There is public health risks every day and has been since the beginning of time, It’s unbelievable how people have become so gullible, you could have been standing in an elevator with someone who had TB 5 years ago. It’s called brainwashed.

Gullible isn't the right word. Concerned citizen, maybe. For a virus that has killed millions, it's intelligent, not gullible..

[Cobullymom]

Idiotic idea-----Very Simple

Why?????
Because even those that are vaccinated may be in the 5% that do not acquire immunity (or 20+% with J&J or Astra-Zeneca), and then there is the question of how long that immunity lasts. So someone gets the vaccine, gets the "passport", and then we still don't know if they are any different than the unvaccinated. And they are certainly less protected than those who had COVID and recovered, but not vaccinated.
How long is the "passport" good for? Renew every what? 3 months,6 months, year? How do you get "100% proof" that a person previously vaccinated is still immune? The "experts" tell us that the antibody test is not valid for that purpose, it is only a marker of previous infection or vaccination. (If it is like most antibody tests, immunity would be dependent upon the titer, usually a 1:32 dilution is adequate, but this is a novel virus and I don't think this has been studied)

So playing out this "passport" scenario, it would be entirely possible, even likely, that someone who has been vaccinated (but did not acquire immunity), has the paperwork to travel, shop, eat out , etc. , while the person next to him in line without the "passport" but is totally immune by virtue of previous infection is denied those privileges. Same with someone whose did acquire immunity, has the "passport", but enough time has passed that their immunity has faded.

Add to the ineffectiveness of such a "passport" plan is the enormous task of actually enforcing it. Most retail stores that currently REQUIRE a mask do not challenge customers who are not wearing one. Imagine the difficulty with something as invasive as a vaccine?
Thank you...there is absolutely no logic in any of this nonsense...

[Cobullymom]

If this was just an individual issue, I would agree with you. However, all these policies and procedures were instituted to minimize a worldwide pandemic that could have killed hundreds of millions. There is a huge difference between public health measures and individual health.
And the flu has killed hundreds of millions over the years and none of this nonsense....

[golfing eagles]

Gullible isn't the right word. Concerned citizen, maybe. For a virus that has killed millions, it's intelligent, not gullible..

This not the first infectious disease that has killed millions, and it won't be the last. But it is the first where governments have stepped in and closed down world economies, limited individual rights such as travel and freedom of assembly, and dictated personal choices such as mask wearing and now vaccines. And this is what is being called "intelligent"?????

[Cobullymom]

naw, you are missing the point. Covid, a worldwide pandemic, has killed more people in 12 months than HPV, Flu, Shingles, etc has in 50 years.

And many countries will require it anyway - plus airlines, cruiseships, etc...

Reality is, I'm a fan of the Governor, but this policy - having the vaccine and the passport - is the fastest way to get the world on track
And the flu has killed hundreds of millions over the years and none of this nonsense....bull..

[crash]

How do you deal with people that have not been vaccinated but have herd immunity or have recovered from COVID 19.. Just testing them once for COVID 19 would not be enough.

If you have had COVID you would have immunity just like getting the vaccine so your passport would say that. Many parts of the world are already doing this and it is a way to get started faster instead of waiting for herd immunity.

[Cobullymom]

Yet large numbers of people are willing to trample on and diminish EVERYONE'S liberty and freedom based on a vaccine of unproven durability and because of fear of something that at worst has taken the lives of about two-tenths of one percent of the population of this country... mostly consisting of the elderly with several comorbidities, about half of which were already in nursing homes.

How quickly and easily we give up that which so many of our ancestors fought and died to preserve. Very sad. :cry: :cry:
Yes it is, people....I will not give up my freedom for this..Thank You Governor!

[golfing eagles]

And the flu has killed hundreds of millions over the years and none of this nonsense....

True, but only at a rate of 35-70,000/year. This is different.

Of course, pneumonic plague killed half of Europe

[golfing eagles]

If you have had COVID you would have immunity just like getting the vaccine so your passport would say that. Many parts of the world are already doing this and it is a way to get started faster instead of waiting for herd immunity.

And just how would it show that???? How are you going to prove it???? The antibody test is not valid for the purpose of determining immunity, at least not yet.

[crash]

This not the first infectious disease that has killed millions, and it won't be the last. But it is the first where governments have stepped in and closed down world economies, limited individual rights such as travel and freedom of assembly, and dictated personal choices such as mask wearing and now vaccines. And this is what is being called "intelligent"?????

Not true the Spanish flu of 1918 was worse then this and had all the same issues with mask wearing and travel restrictions. You think we would of learned something but I guess not. Thank goodness that at least science has advanced.

[thevillages2013]

They want us to protect those who aren't vaccinated, in case we can carry the virus.

Vaccine ID’s should be fairly easy to fake just ask any 18-20 year old

[Cobullymom]

It's not everyone's liberty and freedom. The vaccine cards ALREADY EXIST. Many international travelers ALREADY have them, for other vaccines. If you want to go THERE, then THOSE PEOPLE THERE want proof that you won't spread a deadly illness in their direction. You're welcome to stay where you are, no one is forcing you to go there. THEY have the freedom to say "you're not invited." So stop trying to jump on their freedom.
And I’ve worked through this entire time to keep you cared for and your not going to tell me that now I cannot have any freedom to go anywhere because you were scared. If your vaccinated what are you afraid of???

[Tmarkwald]

And the flu has killed hundreds of millions over the years and none of this nonsense....

Yes, it has - over the years. 30K in a year doesn't compare to 700K in a year.

[Eg_cruz]

I'd like to respectfully throw something out there for discussion and perhaps we can learn a bit from each other.

Our governor has said he will prohibit vaccine passports which would require us to prove we've been vaccinated in order to gain access to some businesses, offices, or restaurants.

I find it interesting because it speaks to how we all want the best for our country; we just approach it in different ways. Conservatives are not fond of government interference in general, but they support this proposal. Liberals are generally okay with government regulation but do indeed want a vaccine passport which DeSantis is opposing.

Just goes to show modern American life is not all cut and dried. We all have to give a little.

If you want to respond but feel the need to be belligerent or snarky, please move on to the next thread. Thanks.

Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis Says He'll Ban Vaccine Passports (https://www.businessinsider.com/florida-governor-ron-desantis-will-ban-vaccine-passports-2021-3)
I am sorry but, I am not one that is jumping on the “Shot that has no long term study band wagon” everyone has the right to choose what the think is best for them. For 20 years I have been leery of vaccines so, to have one without really knowing the true How, What and When is confusing to me. I am a very low risk because of my lifestyle so why should I have to be forced to get something that goes against my beliefs because something may or may not work?

Here’s the big question people have been getting very sick from this shots......has anyone ask Why, it’s not because it has the virus in it so why are some sick for 6-7 days, Why are people getting fevers and nerve pain. Unlike the flu shot where it has the viruses in it the Covid-19 does not so then why (other then egg allergy ) people getting sick? Does that not brother anyone?
I am happy that our governor is not jumping on the crazy vaccine passport.

[maggie1]

The idea of "vaccine passports" is contradictory with what the vaccine advocates contend is true. They contend that people who get the vaccine will be safe from catching and transmitting the virus. If this premise is true, then they should have no worry about being around someone who hasn't had the vaccine. Perhaps the person had the virus and recovered with no problems... in which case, their immunity is probably as good as someone who had the vaccine. Even if they haven't had the virus, the unvaccinated person is the one at greater risk by being there than the vaccinated person, so why should they be prohibited from any public place?

I don't know if a person is immune from catching the virus again after they've already had it, but I agree with the rest of what you've said. Personally, I think it's ridiculous to continue wearing a mask after we've been vaccinated. The purpose of the mask was to prevent the spread of, and from receiving the virus, so if I'm protected how is it my fault to worry about someone else who refuses to get the vaccine? It;s up to them to continue wearing a mask, not me.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

I'd like to respectfully throw something out there for discussion and perhaps we can learn a bit from each other.

Our governor has said he will prohibit vaccine passports which would require us to prove we've been vaccinated in order to gain access to some businesses, offices, or restaurants.

I find it interesting because it speaks to how we all want the best for our country; we just approach it in different ways. Conservatives are not fond of government interference in general, but they support this proposal. Liberals are generally okay with government regulation but do indeed want a vaccine passport which DeSantis is opposing.

Just goes to show modern American life is not all cut and dried. We all have to give a little.

If you want to respond but feel the need to be belligerent or snarky, please move on to the next thread. Thanks.

Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis Says He'll Ban Vaccine Passports (https://www.businessinsider.com/florida-governor-ron-desantis-will-ban-vaccine-passports-2021-3)

I don't know how the government can tell private businesses that they can't require proof in order to enter their premises. The same goes for masks. A business has the right to either require or request that you wear a mask or allow people without masks to enter. The public has a right to choose whether or not they want to do business with those businesses under the terms that they set.

[Tmarkwald]

This not the first infectious disease that has killed millions, and it won't be the last. But it is the first where governments have stepped in and closed down world economies, limited individual rights such as travel and freedom of assembly, and dictated personal choices such as mask wearing and now vaccines. And this is what is being called "intelligent"?????

Spanish flu was the last time there was a pandemic and the governments responded similarly, except there never was a vaccine, and millions perished.

[golfing eagles]

I am sorry but, I am not one that is jumping on the “Shot that has no long term study band wagon” everyone has the right to choose what the think is best for them. For 20 years I have been leery of vaccines so, to have one without really knowing the true How, What and When is confusing to me. I am a very low risk because of my lifestyle so why should I have to be forced to get something that goes against my beliefs because something may or may not work?

Here’s the big question people have been getting very sick from this shots......has anyone ask Why, it’s not because it has the virus in it so why are some sick for 6-7 days, Why are people getting fevers and nerve pain. Unlike the flu shot where it has the viruses in it the Covid-19 does not so then why (other then egg allergy ) people getting sick? Does that not brother anyone?
I am happy that our governor is not jumping on the crazy vaccine passport.

Sorry, but there is so much wrong with this post that I wouldn't know where to begin, nor do I have the time to sort it out.

[Stuholden]

The idea of "vaccine passports" is contradictory with what the vaccine advocates contend is true. They contend that people who get the vaccine will be safe from catching and transmitting the virus. If this premise is true, then they should have no worry about being around someone who hasn't had the vaccine. Perhaps the person had the virus and recovered with no problems... in which case, their immunity is probably as good as someone who had the vaccine. Even if they haven't had the virus, the unvaccinated person is the one at greater risk by being there than the vaccinated person, so why should they be prohibited from any public place?

This is not binary - if you have the vaccine you are not 100% immune as all vaccines have a percentage effectiveness. If you have had covid you are not immune to reinfection. There are varients and mutations which are arising the more infections there are in the community.
Vaccine passports will allow groups to form that have lowered risk, but not 100% safe.

[Tmarkwald]

I don't know how the government can tell private businesses that they can't require proof in order to enter their premises. The same goes for masks. A business has the right to either require or request that you wear a mask or allow people without masks to enter. The public has a right to choose whether or not they want to do business with those businesses under the terms that they set.

Yeah, that is true. A business can choose to allow or not allow someone in their establishment or business. That choice is not protected by Federal Law.

[crash]

And just how would it show that???? How are you going to prove it???? The antibody test is not valid for the purpose of determining immunity, at least not yet.

What is not determined is how long the immunity lasts. Just like the vaccine, having COVID develops antibodies that prevent disease. This is how covalence plasma treatment works. Your immunity will last the same amount of time whether from disease or vaccine.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

I don't know if a person is immune from catching the virus again after they've already had it, but I agree with the rest of what you've said. Personally, I think it's ridiculous to continue wearing a mask after we've been vaccinated. The purpose of the mask was to prevent the spread of, and from receiving the virus, so if I'm protected how is it my fault to worry about someone else who refuses to get the vaccine? It;s up to them to continue wearing a mask, not me.

Masks primarily protect those around the wearer. Since many people have not been able to get the vaccine as of this time, I'll continue to wear a mask indoors in public places out of respect for my fellow humans.

I've had both doses but from what I understand, I can still contract the virus and pass it on to others. Once everyone in the state of Florida that wants to be vaccinated has been, I will stop wearing a mask. At that point, as you say, people have made a choice it is not my responsibility to protect them.

[dewilson58]

I am happy that our governor is not jumping on the crazy vaccine passport.
Of he did, he is protecting Florida $$$$, as he should.
It won't matter what he wants.

[golfing eagles]

Spanish flu was the last time there was a pandemic and the governments responded similarly, except there never was a vaccine, and millions perished.

From the Baltimore Sun:

"“It was called the Spanish flu. But that was only because Spain, which was not at war, allowed the press to report on it openly. Unlike here. ... The nation wasn’t told.

“A year earlier, President Woodrow Wilson had rammed through Congress the Sedition Act, making it a crime to say or publish anything negative that would affect the war effort.”

According to Barry, “Wilson created what was called the Committee for Public Information. The architect of that committee said, 'Truth and falsehood are arbitrary terms. The force of an idea lies in its inspirational value. It matters very little if it is true or false.'"

"In the United States, you had national public health leaders saying such things as ‘This is ordinary influenza by another name.’ At the local level the same kind of thing was occurring. With deadly consequences. ... No more so than in Philadelphia, which went ahead with a huge war bond parade in the fall of 1918 when the virus was at its most virulent. Newspapers killed stories quoting the medical community saying don’t do it.

"So, 48 hours later, influenza exploded around the city," Barry said. "The result is, it's one of the hardest-hit cities in the world, and the mass graves being dug by steam shovels and so forth." The death toll in Philadelphia was about 14,500.

The 1918 flu epidemic and the end of World War 1 marked the beginning of a complicated social, political and economic matrix of events that continue to have an impact to this day."

[Tmarkwald]

Here’s the big question people have been getting very sick from this shots......has anyone ask Why, it’s not because it has the virus in it so why are some sick for 6-7 days, Why are people getting fevers and nerve pain. Unlike the flu shot where it has the viruses in it the Covid-19 does not so then why (other then egg allergy ) people getting sick? Does that not brother anyone?
I am happy that our governor is not jumping on the crazy vaccine passport.

There is no egg in the vaccine, and less than 1 in 10,000 has gotten seriously ill, and there have been no deaths .

Not Sure About the COVID-19 Vaccine? Get the Facts, Then Decide (https://healthblog.uofmhealth.org/wellness-prevention/not-sure-about-covid-19-vaccine-get-facts-then-decide#sideeffects)

[golfing eagles]

What is not determined is how long the immunity lasts. Just like the vaccine, having COVID develops antibodies that prevent disease. This is how covalence plasma treatment works. Your immunity will last the same amount of time whether from disease or vaccine.

Are you asking me or telling me?????

Not to question your "expertise", but that would be "convalescent plasma"

[Tmarkwald]

I don't know if a person is immune from catching the virus again after they've already had it, but I agree with the rest of what you've said. Personally, I think it's ridiculous to continue wearing a mask after we've been vaccinated. The purpose of the mask was to prevent the spread of, and from receiving the virus, so if I'm protected how is it my fault to worry about someone else who refuses to get the vaccine? It;s up to them to continue wearing a mask, not me.

I agree -

[Pat2015]

The big deal about these vaccines is that they are not FDA approved and there’s no data about long term effects. That’s why some people are opting not to get them at this time which is their right.

[golfing eagles]

The big deal about these vaccines is that they are not FDA approved and there’s no data about long term effects. That’s why some people are opting not to get them at this time which is their right.

Unfortunately, the "pro vaccine passport" crowd want to limit your other rights if you exercise that one.

[Pat2015]

I don’t see where something that isn’t even FDA approved can be mandated by any court.

[MandoMan]

I'd like to respectfully throw something out there for discussion and perhaps we can learn a bit from each other.

Our governor has said he will prohibit vaccine passports which would require us to prove we've been vaccinated in order to gain access to some businesses, offices, or restaurants.

I find it interesting because it speaks to how we all want the best for our country; we just approach it in different ways. Conservatives are not fond of government interference in general, but they support this proposal. Liberals are generally okay with government regulation but do indeed want a vaccine passport which DeSantis is opposing.

Just goes to show modern American life is not all cut and dried. We all have to give a little.

If you want to respond but feel the need to be belligerent or snarky, please move on to the next thread. Thanks.

Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis Says He'll Ban Vaccine Passports (https://www.businessinsider.com/florida-governor-ron-desantis-will-ban-vaccine-passports-2021-3)

It’s interesting that to a substantial extent, the people who want people to be able to get vaccine passports don’t want voters to have to show ID before voting, while many people who oppose vaccine passports because of “personal freedom” want to require official ID for voters.

I favor both! I also favor mandatory vaccination, with those who refuse the vaccine required to pay for all their own medical bills if they get COVID-19 and have to be hospitalized.

[golfing eagles]

I don’t see where something that isn’t even FDA approved can be mandated by any court.

It has emergency approval, eventually the FDA will have to consider full, unconditional approval. This is not unusual.

[Pat2015]

But meanwhile everyone taking the vaccine is a guinea pig in the study that everyone is participating in where it is thought that you maybe you can still get Covid (no research on that), and the long term effects are unknown. I don’t fault those who are opting out of getting the vaccine as that’s their right, and some people can not take the vaccines being offered for various reasons so what’s to be done about them?

[Fairway Cruises]

This is becoming a controversial subject and causing disagreement with friends, neighbors and the family. many are acting like sheep. Sad it has come to this. But the research and good strong information is there for all to find. Truth is never in the media, remember that, it's just not. It's either told with a bias or told (be it TV or the press etc) by many less educated to tell the truth than we are.
There is confusion everywhere you look, even the government (federal and local) tell different stories. You have to decide for yourself when you look at the evidence.
So let me throw in my 10 pennyworth...
The Oxford Astra Zenica Vaccine largely manufactured in the UK and some in Holland is actually and effectively 'gene therapy'. It involves protiens that attach to your gene's before falling away harmlessly. The effect of this is to 'boost' your immune system reaction to fight any virus. The result as has been said by the science, is that you won't get as sick as you otherwise could have and so prevent you from terrible illness, or even in some cases death. Important to note that it has been said the innoculation does not protect you from getting the virus (to do that you would need the vaccine to contain a bit of the virus, like an annual flu shot) It also does not stop you spreading the virus. The pharma companies obtained their own indemnity from adverse side effects, and prosecution as a condition of getting the drug out quickly. It has had little trial, and it is not known how the drug will react on people. Indeed, there are enough stories out there that relate to some serious side effects for the unlucky few. Death being one. The drug is not licenced, and governments are only allowing it's use under emergency covid legislation.
We are told it's a golden ticket out of this wild lockdown life. Many would argue that false, as herd immunity has worked as well in many countries where a vaccine was never used or lockdowns. Finally the virus as we now know by the data is for the most part effecting the over 80's, where most of the deaths and illnesses have come from. Some 98.6% (that number varies) of the population are not seriously effected in any way, and many simply are unaware they have had it. People vulnerable are the aged, overweight or with a precondition (many with preconditions they did not know they had).
So you decide - has this been a huge 'virtual' signal by panicked governements, helped along by agenda's and a desire to use as a means to change laws (remember the patriot act?) or is this just a genuine effort to save the population? History shows us many horrible viruses and plagues existed that populations recovered from without any vaccines, even as recently as SARS. Our immunity needs to be exposed to life's viruses or we would continue to get sick. It's how we build our immunities. Locking us down and hiding can only be dangerous for us, we just get sick when exposed again. Not to mention the issues it casues in mental health, hospitals postponing cancer treaments and many other health issues producing early deaths. It has certainly split and divided us more than ever, which can't be a good thing.
Well you make up your own mind but know the facts first.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

The big deal about these vaccines is that they are not FDA approved and there’s no data about long term effects. That’s why some people are opting not to get them at this time which is their right.

Ummm.... they are indeed FDA approved. That is why we had to wait for the J&J one shot vaccine and that is why we don't have the AstraZeneca vaccine now.

[larbud]

Hell

[dlspiess]

I foresee vaccine passports for more than just covid. Yes, children are required to be vaccinated to enter school, but what about for HPV? Flu? Shingles? I'm sure there's more. Where is the line drawn? No, I'm not a supporter.

Not all states require children to be vaccinated for school anymore. Don’t get me wrong, I do believe in child vaccinations but it is the new trend. It is my opinion that this van will be like the flu shot, yearly. I don’t agree with a vaccine passport.

[Autodeals]

Scary times we are living in with so much division between people. We need to respect others choices in life & the governor is allowing people to continue to have the freedom to choose what medical intervention they wish to select for their well being.

[bonrich]

So, as I understand it, if now before the vaccine passport, two of us walk into a store, wearing masks, distancing, one vaccinated, the other not, shop, then leave, following guidelines, all is good. Or both vaccinated, wearing masks, social distancing, shop and leave unscathed. Or both wearing masks, socially distancing, shop, but neither one vaccinated, leave not spreading the virus. In all instances the two parties are following the guidelines set out by the powers to be, and what we have been doing for the past year, what has been gained? Businesses may still require masks to shop or dine, we have been doing the mask thing for so long now, it is easier to get into line, just like wearing seat belts and how hard it was to get used to them, now buckle up automatically.
Now, travel on airlines, that is another animal. What have the airlines been doing now? Has there been outbreaks of COVID with increased air travel that has been traced? It will be interesting to read about the aftermath of Spring Break! Looking for numbers.

[Pat2015]

They are not FDA approved as they are being offered only under an emergency authorization which is not the same thing.

[Tmarkwald]

The big deal about these vaccines is that they are not FDA approved and there’s no data about long term effects. That’s why some people are opting not to get them at this time which is their right.

Urban legend. The vaccine has been around for over 10 years - it was developed for SARS and MERS. Which is what Covid is a derivative of. Plenty of testing.

[golfing eagles]

This is becoming a controversial subject and causing disagreement with friends, neighbors and the family. many are acting like sheep. Sad it has come to this. But the research and good strong information is there for all to find. Truth is never in the media, remember that, it's just not. It's either told with a bias or told (be it TV or the press etc) by many less educated to tell the truth than we are.
There is confusion everywhere you look, even the government (federal and local) tell different stories. You have to decide for yourself when you look at the evidence.
So let me throw in my 10 pennyworth...
The Oxford Astra Zenica Vaccine largely manufactured in the UK and some in Holland is actually and effectively 'gene therapy'. It involves protiens that attach to your gene's before falling away harmlessly. The effect of this is to 'boost' your immune system reaction to fight any virus. The result as has been said by the science, is that you won't get as sick as you otherwise could have and so prevent you from terrible illness, or even in some cases death. Important to note that it has been said the innoculation does not protect you from getting the virus (to do that you would need the vaccine to contain a bit of the virus, like an annual flu shot) It also does not stop you spreading the virus. The pharma companies obtained their own indemnity from adverse side effects, and prosecution as a condition of getting the drug out quickly. It has had little trial, and it is not known how the drug will react on people. Indeed, there are enough stories out there that relate to some serious side effects for the unlucky few. Death being one. The drug is not licenced, and governments are only allowing it's use under emergency covid legislation.
We are told it's a golden ticket out of this wild lockdown life. Many would argue that false, as herd immunity has worked as well in many countries where a vaccine was never used or lockdowns. Finally the virus as we now know by the data is for the most part effecting the over 80's, where most of the deaths and illnesses have come from. Some 98.6% (that number varies) of the population are not seriously effected in any way, and many simply are unaware they have had it. People vulnerable are the aged, overweight or with a precondition (many with preconditions they did not know they had).
So you decide - has this been a huge 'virtual' signal by panicked governements, helped along by agenda's and a desire to use as a means to change laws (remember the patriot act?) or is this just a genuine effort to save the population? History shows us many horrible viruses and plagues existed that populations recovered from without any vaccines, even as recently as SARS. Our immunity needs to be exposed to life's viruses or we would continue to get sick. It's how we build our immunities. Locking us down and hiding can only be dangerous for us, we just get sick when exposed again. Not to mention the issues it casues in mental health, hospitals postponing cancer treaments and many other health issues producing early deaths. It has certainly split and divided us more than ever, which can't be a good thing.
Well you make up your own mind but know the facts first.

Well you make up your own mind but know the facts first.

Yes, you should know the FACTS, but those posted are not them.

The Oxford Astra Zenica Vaccine largely manufactured in the UK and some in Holland is actually and effectively 'gene therapy'.

gene therapy
[jēn ˈTHerəpē]
NOUN
the transplantation of normal genes into cells in place of missing or defective ones in order to correct genetic disorders.

So, none of the VACCINES are "gene therapy"

Important to note that it has been said the innoculation does not protect you from getting the virus (to do that you would need the vaccine to contain a bit of the virus, like an annual flu shot) It also does not stop you spreading the virus.

Again, this MYTH keeps showing up day after day. The whole purpose of a vaccine is to prevent those who have been inoculated from catching and spreading the disease. This MYTH had its origins an a medical article that stated it is unknown whether or not a person who was vaccinated could temporarily acquire enough virus in their nasopharynx to immediately spread it after a cough or sneeze. Barring that unlikely scenario, a vaccinated individual can neither catch the disease or spread it, assuming they are in the 95% that acquired immunity

[Tmarkwald]

So, as I understand it, if now before the vaccine passport, two of us walk into a store, wearing masks, distancing, one vaccinated, the other not, shop, then leave, following guidelines, all is good. Or both vaccinated, wearing masks, social distancing, shop and leave unscathed. Or both wearing masks, socially distancing, shop, but neither one vaccinated, leave not spreading the virus. In all instances the two parties are following the guidelines set out by the powers to be, and what we have been doing for the past year, what has been gained? Businesses may still require masks to shop or dine, we have been doing the mask thing for so long now, it is easier to get into line, just like wearing seat belts and how hard it was to get used to them, now buckle up automatically.
Now, travel on airlines, that is another animal. What have the airlines been doing now? Has there been outbreaks of COVID with increased air travel that has been traced? It will be interesting to read about the aftermath of Spring Break! Looking for numbers.

Not shopping - travel; air and sea at least. Already been announced that effective in June vaccine will be required to travel to Europe. Until now, with the vaccine in short supply, negative test is required.

Once we hit June, everyone will have had the opportunity to get the vaccine. No vaccine - no travel.

[golfing eagles]

Not shopping - travel; air and sea at least. Already been announced that effective in June vaccine will be required to travel to Europe. Until now, with the vaccine in short supply, negative test is required.

Once we hit June, everyone will have had the opportunity to get the vaccine. No vaccine - no travel.

All that proves is that the Europeans remain stupid, and it is highly likely, that as with most bad European ideas, we will follow suit.

[Tmarkwald]

They are not FDA approved as they are being offered only under an emergency authorization which is not the same thing.

What is an Emergency Use Authorization (EUA)?
An Emergency Use Authorization (EUA) is a mechanism to facilitate the availability and use of medical countermeasures, including vaccines, during public health emergencies, such as the current COVID-19 pandemic. Under an EUA, FDA authorizes unapproved uses of approved medical products in an emergency to diagnose, treat, or prevent serious or life-threatening diseases or conditions when certain statutory criteria have been met, including that there are no adequate, approved, and available alternatives. Taking into consideration input from the FDA, manufacturers decide whether and when to submit an EUA request to FDA.

Once submitted, FDA will evaluate an EUA request and determine whether the relevant statutory criteria are met, taking into account the totality of the scientific evidence about the vaccine that is available to FDA.

Are the COVID-19 vaccines rigorously tested?
Yes. Clinical trials are evaluating investigational COVID-19 vaccines in tens of thousands of study participants to generate the scientific data and other information needed by FDA to determine safety and effectiveness. These clinical trials are being conducted according to the rigorous standards set forth by the FDA.

Source: FDA

[Tmarkwald]

I don’t see where something that isn’t even FDA approved can be mandated by any court.

I've responded too many times already. But since you keep spouting the same nonsense, here it is again .. Please read the authorization.

What is an Emergency Use Authorization (EUA)?
An Emergency Use Authorization (EUA) is a mechanism to facilitate the availability and use of medical countermeasures, including vaccines, during public health emergencies, such as the current COVID-19 pandemic. Under an EUA, FDA may allow the use of unapproved medical products, or unapproved uses of approved medical products in an emergency to diagnose, treat, or prevent serious or life-threatening diseases or conditions when certain statutory criteria have been met, including that there are no adequate, approved, and available alternatives. Taking into consideration input from the FDA, manufacturers decide whether and when to submit an EUA request to FDA.

Once submitted, FDA will evaluate an EUA request and determine whether the relevant statutory criteria are met, taking into account the totality of the scientific evidence about the vaccine that is available to FDA.

Are the COVID-19 vaccines rigorously tested?
Yes. Clinical trials are evaluating investigational COVID-19 vaccines in tens of thousands of study participants to generate the scientific data and other information needed by FDA to determine safety and effectiveness. These clinical trials are being conducted according to the rigorous standards set forth by the FDA.

[Tmarkwald]

All that proves is that the Europeans remain stupid, and it is highly likely, that as with most bad European ideas, we will follow suit.

Most countries will require it - and it is possible that the US may make it impossible to get or renew a passport without getting vaccinated.

Could COVID-19 vaccines become mandatory in the U.S.? | Hub (https://hub.jhu.edu/2020/11/20/could-coronavirus-vaccines-become-mandatory/)

... the federal government has some ways to get people to vaccinate, imposing it as a condition of getting a passport, for example.....

Will the COVID-19 vaccine be mandatory? What the law says (https://www.today.com/health/will-covid-19-vaccine-be-mandatory-t190838)

[Uncle Pepe]

It seems that the freedoms we have enjoyed for most of our lives has become a burden. I for one do not believe in life without freedom. The idea of "vaccine passports" is not so different than wearing a scarlet letter or a yellow star of David. We take our lives in our hands every day by whatever lifestyle we may enjoy. We drive our cars amongst others whose driving habits put us at risk. We eat food from restaurants that are not checked very often. We go on social media sites without knowing for sure if our identities are fully protected. These are our choices. This is just my opinion.

I don't believe in labeling people for any reason. I follow Christ and the constitution and treat all with love.

[mrf6969]

How do you deal with people that have not been vaccinated but have herd immunity or have recovered from COVID 19.. Just testing them once for COVID 19 would not be enough.
If you test them for COVID then you realize that you too must be tested as your not immune from getting COVID in fact you can still be a carrier.

[jamorela]

“ I also favor mandatory vaccination, with those who refuse the vaccine required to pay for all their own medical bills if they get COVID-19 and have to be hospitalized”

Wow! That’s all I can say to that response!

[Beyond The Wall]

And mandatory vaccination have been upheld several times by the Supreme Court in the interest of public safety.

And the Supreme Court is always right:shrug::shrug:

[Tmarkwald]

I'll just say this - nobody is, or intends to, wear a mask at the squares in an effort to protect the anti-vaxxers from contracting the virus.

That is blatantly obvious. If you refuse to get vaccinated, then be prepared for the possible consequences. I saw a friend die from lung cancer at 60. He asked me if I had quit smoking, which I had 20 years earlier. He said he wished he had quit as well.

I couldn't get him to quit, the same way I can't get an anti-vaxxer to get a vaccine.

So, there will be people, anti-vaxxers - on their death beds wishing they'd made different choices in life.

IMHO

[Debbraham]

The idea of "vaccine passports" is contradictory with what the vaccine advocates contend is true. They contend that people who get the vaccine will be safe from catching and transmitting the virus. If this premise is true, then they should have no worry about being around someone who hasn't had the vaccine. Perhaps the person had the virus and recovered with no problems... in which case, their immunity is probably as good as someone who had the vaccine. Even if they haven't had the virus, the unvaccinated person is the one at greater risk by being there than the vaccinated person, so why should they be prohibited from any public place?

I would like to be able to show a vaccine passport in order to fly back into the country without having to have mandatory test. Seems like if you are vaccinated you shouldn’t have to still have a test.

[Swoop]

Urban legend. The vaccine has been around for over 10 years - it was developed for SARS and MERS. Which is what Covid is a derivative of. Plenty of testing.

You need to stop posting this. It is absolutely untrue. There has never been a vaccine for either SARS or MERS. There were attempts to create a vaccine for them, but they were unsuccessful. It is true that both SARS and MERS were Coronaviruses, but it is also true that without a vaccine SARS lasted less than 2 years and the MERS outbreak lasted less than 3 years...

[jbrown132]

I'd like to respectfully throw something out there for discussion and perhaps we can learn a bit from each other.

Our governor has said he will prohibit vaccine passports which would require us to prove we've been vaccinated in order to gain access to some businesses, offices, or restaurants.

I find it interesting because it speaks to how we all want the best for our country; we just approach it in different ways. Conservatives are not fond of government interference in general, but they support this proposal. Liberals are generally okay with government regulation but do indeed want a vaccine passport which DeSantis is opposing.

Just goes to show modern American life is not all cut and dried. We all have to give a little.

If you want to respond but feel the need to be belligerent or snarky, please move on to the next thread. Thanks.

Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis Says He'll Ban Vaccine Passports (https://www.businessinsider.com/florida-governor-ron-desantis-will-ban-vaccine-passports-2021-3)

In this case I totally support what the Governor says. Every time the government does something like this we give up some of our freedoms. It allows the government to track out movements and infringes on doctor patient confidentiality. What’s next, a flu passport, a polio passport, a measles passport for kids to go to school etc. Enough is enough.

[Andyb]

Wrong, it is an individual issue.

[jamorela]

For those of you who feel no one should be allowed to travel without the vaccine... I got the first shot. Had an allergic reaction (immediate rash on face and arms.). I have had an anaphylactic response to a drug in the past. Three doctors and a nurse recommended that I do not get the second shot because “it is not worth the risk!” So, I didn’t. So, should I not be allowed to do something I love? PS: My cheeks and chin have a permanent rosy color to them since that shot on January 4. It’s like they have been permanently burned.

[Tmarkwald]

I would like to be able to show a vaccine passport in order to fly back into the country without having to have mandatory test. Seems like if you are vaccinated you shouldn’t have to still have a test.

agreed!

[maggie1]

Masks primarily protect those around the wearer. Since many people have not been able to get the vaccine as of this time, I'll continue to wear a mask indoors in public places out of respect for my fellow humans.

I've had both doses but from what I understand, I can still contract the virus and pass it on to others. Once everyone in the state of Florida that wants to be vaccinated has been, I will stop wearing a mask. At that point, as you say, people have made a choice it is not my responsibility to protect them.

My point, exactly, but then you have the following post by someone who believes the vaccine will change DNA, and is responsible for other maladies.


Originally Posted by Eg_cruz View Post
I am sorry but, I am not one that is jumping on the “Shot that has no long term study band wagon” everyone has the right to choose what the think is best for them. For 20 years I have been leery of vaccines so, to have one without really knowing the true How, What and When is confusing to me. I am a very low risk because of my lifestyle so why should I have to be forced to get something that goes against my beliefs because something may or may not work?

Here’s the big question people have been getting very sick from this shots......has anyone ask Why, it’s not because it has the virus in it so why are some sick for 6-7 days, Why are people getting fevers and nerve pain. Unlike the flu shot where it has the viruses in it the Covid-19 does not so then why (other then egg allergy ) people getting sick? Does that not brother anyone?
I am happy that our governor is not jumping on the crazy vaccine passport.

[Tmarkwald]

For those of you who feel no one should be allowed to travel without the vaccine... I got the first shot. Had an allergic reaction (immediate rash on face and arms.). I have had an anaphylactic response to a drug in the past. Three doctors and a nurse recommended that I do not get the second shot because “it is not worth the risk!” So, I didn’t. So, should I not be allowed to do something I love? PS: My cheeks and chin have a permanent rosy color to them since that shot on January 4. It’s like they have been permanently burned.

So, they are required to ask you if you've had an anaphylactic response in the past.. If you have, then you get the J&J vaccine. Only the Moderna and Pfizer give that response.

So, you didn't mention that to them when they asked? It is right on the paper they gave you with your card as well..

[Tmarkwald]

“ I also favor mandatory vaccination, with those who refuse the vaccine required to pay for all their own medical bills if they get COVID-19 and have to be hospitalized”

Wow! That’s all I can say to that response!

Absolutely! You've got a vaccine that mitigates the risk. You should shoulder 100% of the costs. Definately! Otherwise it's people like us busting our tails to send money to the irresponsible liberal states to spend.

[Tmarkwald]

You need to stop posting this. It is absolutely untrue. There has never been a vaccine for either SARS or MERS. There were attempts to create a vaccine for them, but they were unsuccessful. It is true that both SARS and MERS were Coronaviruses, but it is also true that without a vaccine SARS lasted less than 2 years and the MERS outbreak lasted less than 3 years...

Coronavirus vaccine development: from SARS and MERS to COVID-19

Coronavirus vaccine development: from SARS and MERS to COVID-19 - PubMed (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33341119/)

[SusanKD]

I’m against having to carry a proof vaccination. Next thing you know their will be other restrictions on where we allow to go or do base on government decision not our own.

[Bay Kid]

Don't worry, if you come across the southern border you are free to do whatever. No vaccine or 6' distance necessary, mask maybe if in a group of 6 or less. If sick free medical care. Come on in.

[DeeCee Dubya]

I am much more afraid of the eagerness of citizens all over the world to blindly and unquestionably bow to government bureaucrats than I am of any virus.

Also consider this; if you know anything about biology you’ll know that viruses constantly mutate and adapt to threats ie. Vaccines. And COVID-19 will be no different. So you better get ready for re-vaccinations about every flu season from now on.

This is nothing more than a garden-variety flu virus which many healthcare experts confirm. It has been used as a proxy for government to control every aspect of human life and justify their own parasitic existence. People wake up please.

[JMintzer]

Great responses so far but none are getting to the heart of what I intended to be the matter. And that is...in this case conservatives are supporting government regulation. And government regulation is contradictory to their guiding principles.

On the other hand, liberals, who don't mind government regulation and expect a lot of it, ironically are against this proposed government regulation.

The point is there is no black and white. Both sides want the best for our country, but we approach it differently. This is proof we overlap.

This wasn't intended to be about the pros and cons of a vaccine passport, but carry on as you wish.

Um, I do believe you have this completely backwards...

The GOP is against the Vaccine Passport. In fact, DeSantis is passing a law specifically denying it's use in Florida...

[Mike193534]

Because wearing a mask doesnt protect the wearer! It protects others from them. This has been explained since the start of the pandemic

I don’t understand this. If I have covid and wear a mask, you don’t have covid and don’t wear a mask is my mask protecting you? If this is true does this mean if I have covid and don’t wear a mask and you don’t have covid and wear a mask the mask is NOT protecting you? How is the mask only keeping covid inside mask but it allows covid to enter a mask? Are these masks one-way?

[Tmarkwald]

Don't worry, if you come across the southern border you are free to do whatever. No vaccine or 6' distance necessary, mask maybe if in a group of 6 or less. If sick free medical care. Come on in.

Oh, and if you have kids? In - person schooling! And free T-Shirts that say 'Biden - Let me in!' to send to your family!!

[JMintzer]

Vaccine Passport doesn't seem much different than TSA PreCheck, Global Entry or Clear. All their purposes are to get you through a specific point faster, more conveniently and before others without the right paperwork. I'll bet if the government charged $100 for a Vaccine Passport you'd be waiting in line for hours to get one so you can beat the wait to get on a plane or boat or bus. :1rotfl:.

It's not about doing anything "faster"...

It's about being allowed to do something or being denied the very same activity...

[Tmarkwald]

This is nothing more than a garden-variety flu virus

uh..what?

[JMintzer]

It's not everyone's liberty and freedom. The vaccine cards ALREADY EXIST. Many international travelers ALREADY have them, for other vaccines. If you want to go THERE, then THOSE PEOPLE THERE want proof that you won't spread a deadly illness in their direction. You're welcome to stay where you are, no one is forcing you to go there. THEY have the freedom to say "you're not invited." So stop trying to jump on their freedom.

"Those people there" don't have a little piece of paper called The Constitution...

THEY can do whatever they like...

[JMintzer]

No, we don't "have to" wear masks. He recommends it. But we don't have to. Although businesses might require you to anyway. And here's the fun part: even if Fauci says "you know what - it's time. Everyone remove your masks!" businesses can STILL require that you wear them.

The State of Florida has never mandated masks. Even while Fauci urged everyone to wear them.

Biden is now calling on Governors to re-instate or start a "mask mandate"...

So yeah, he want's us to HAVE to wear masks... For how long? No one knows...

[Pat2015]

“No COVID-19 vaccines have been approved. Approval means the FDA has officially decided that a product is safe and effective for its designated use. The process for approval involves rigorous reviews of all available data on the product and can take several months. They are instead emergency use authorizations that have been issued.”

[doodles]

The bottom line is if the airline, cruise ship, amusement park or office etc require proof of vaccine for you to enter it is their right the same as they have a right to require a mask.

[Pat2015]

I’m not spouting any nonsense by pointing out that the vaccines are not FDA approved but are being offered under an emergency usage authorization. That’s a fact, not nonsense.

[jh214]

Funny how the Dems want a vaccine passport, but do not want an ID to vote. How in the world can a person not have an ID? Do they never go to a bank, take a flight, get a hotel, or go to a doctor? You and I both know why they don't want voters to not have to show an ID.

[Tmarkwald]

"Those people there" don't have a little piece of paper called The Constitution...

THEY can do whatever they like...

And that's why THEY can say NO when you want to travel to THEIR country.

That's the entire point of all this.

Our constitution rights END at our borders. THEIR country, THEIR rules. I do a LOT of international travel - have been doing do for 40 years. So, yeah, you've got to learn that we have to abide by THEIR rules.

If THEY say 'thou must haveth a Vaccine Passport to pass into our lands', then, by God, you'll have one or you'll stay right here.

I get the sentiment, though!

[JMintzer]

Wear the mask
Vaccinated or not
Till the Covid virus is no longer with us.

The fact that you think that this virus will ever go away is hysterical...

[Tmarkwald]

"Those people there" don't have a little piece of paper called The Constitution...

THEY can do whatever they like...

It's not about doing anything "faster"...

It's about being allowed to do something or being denied the very same activity...

So, if the airlines mandate it, what then?

[Tmarkwald]

Um, I do believe you have this completely backwards...

The GOP is against the Vaccine Passport. In fact, DeSantis is passing a law specifically denying it's use in Florida...

True, but many people would like to travel beyond Florida.....

[Spalumbos62]

Gullible isn't the right word. Concerned citizen, maybe. For a virus that has killed millions, it's intelligent, not gullible..

I agree, but really isn't it common sense?
Think about it, you got the vaccine, you HAVE the card, just show it. Almost like getting proofed at a bar....prove your status.
But then there is the issue of losing the card, damage etc. ( I'm sorry, but whomever designed it wasn't thinking straight)...won't fit in my wallet, now thats going to lead to curled edges, putting it into pants pocket, purse pouch, all which will increase damage to it, or leaving on dresser etc,etc...all because of design. Maybe it should of been laminated like our licenses?
Better yet, maybe we all should be tattooed!!!!!
(Talk about stirring a pot)

Anyway, got my vaccine, got my card...I'm proud and if you wanna see it, I'd be happy to flash you.������

[meridian5850]

I'd like to respectfully throw something out there for discussion and perhaps we can learn a bit from each other.

Our governor has said he will prohibit vaccine passports which would require us to prove we've been vaccinated in order to gain access to some businesses, offices, or restaurants.

I find it interesting because it speaks to how we all want the best for our country; we just approach it in different ways. Conservatives are not fond of government interference in general, but they support this proposal. Liberals are generally okay with government regulation but do indeed want a vaccine passport which DeSantis is opposing.

Just goes to show modern American life is not all cut and dried. We all have to give a little.

If you want to respond but feel the need to be belligerent or snarky, please move on to the next thread. Thanks.

Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis Says He'll Ban Vaccine Passports (https://www.businessinsider.com/florida-governor-ron-desantis-will-ban-vaccine-passports-2021-3)

The FEDERAL gov't is floating the idea of vaccine passports and a STATE gov't is saying "no, not here".

[Tmarkwald]

I agree, but really isn't it common sense?
Think about it, you got the vaccine, you HAVE the card, just show it. Almost like getting proofed at a bar....prove your status.
But then there is the issue of losing the card, damage etc. ( I'm sorry, but whomever designed it wasn't thinking straight)...won't fit in my wallet, now thats going to lead to curled edges, putting it into pants pocket, purse pouch, all which will increase damage to it, or leaving on dresser etc,etc...all because of design. Maybe it should of been laminated like our licenses?
Better yet, maybe we all should be tatoo!!!!!
(Talk about stirring a pot)

Anyway way, got my vaccine, got my card...I'm proud and if you wanna see it, I'd be happy to flash you.😁

Love it... HAHAHAHA:coolsmiley::coolsmiley:

[Bill14564]

I am much more afraid of the eagerness of citizens all over the world to blindly and unquestionably bow to government bureaucrats than I am of any virus.

Also consider this; if you know anything about biology you’ll know that viruses constantly mutate and adapt to threats ie. Vaccines. And COVID-19 will be no different. So you better get ready for re-vaccinations about every flu season from now on.

This is nothing more than a garden-variety flu virus which many healthcare experts confirm. It has been used as a proxy for government to control every aspect of human life and justify their own parasitic existence. People wake up please.

Those particular healthcare "experts" need to have their licenses revoked (if they even have a license).

The "garden-variety" flu is estimated to cause 35,000 US deaths per year. Covid is known to have caused nearly 500,000 deaths last year over and above the normal number of deaths expected in a single year. Whatever Covid is, it is NOT a garden-variety flu.

[donfey]

To expand on what I said above, if an individual feels that they are particularly vulnerable to the virus, then why wouldn't it be THEIR responsibility to stay out of public places or take extra precautions such as double masking in order to protect themselves? Why should someone whose personal risk level from the virus is way less than 1% be prohibited from being in a public place just because some particularly vulnerable person doesn't feel safe?

Shouldn't self protection be the primary responsibility of the individual rather than placing the burden upon society to protect them by giving up their own freedoms?

Personal responsibility: what a concept!

[Bill14564]

“No COVID-19 vaccines have been approved. Approval means the FDA has officially decided that a product is safe and effective for its designated use. The process for approval involves rigorous reviews of all available data on the product and can take several months. They are instead emergency use authorizations that have been issued.”

I’m not spouting any nonsense by pointing out that the vaccines are not FDA approved but are being offered under an emergency usage authorization. That’s a fact, not nonsense.

Yes, the vaccines are allowed to be used under an emergency use authorization. But to imply that they are unsafe or that they have not undergone testing and review *is* nonsense.

[Mimarsha]

I definitely support showing vaccines were given! Just like a Drivers License or Village ID but saving lives at least for the next 6-9 months. This thing is NOT over yet!

[Andyw]

Today vaccination passport Tomorrow passport to leave your home. Too much government control.

[Gray lady of the sea]

I totally agree with our governor’s decision

[Waltdisney4life]

When do people take responsible for themselves and quit pointing fingers it must make people sleep better at night when they can blame others for this and that and feel fully justified with their hate and anger.

[Pat2015]

Yes, the vaccines are allowed to be used under an emergency use authorization. But to imply that they are unsafe or that they have not undergone testing and review *is* nonsense.
I never said they were unsafe or implied anything I simply corrected the statement that the vaccines are FDA approved, as they are not and that is not “nonsense!”

[dtennent]

If the Governor prohibits any business from requiring a vaccine passport, will the cruise industry find ports outside of Florida to base their cruises? After seeing what happened on the Princess ship last year, I am a proponent of showing proof that you have had the vaccine before getting on a ship. BTW, I have traveled to all 7 continents and have had a yellow vaccination record for the past 45 years showing my vaccinations against typhus, typhoid, cholera, yellow fever, tetanus, etc. I think the only vaccination I haven't gotten is for rabies - though I am beginning to have second thoughts after seeing some of the rabid responses here.

[Gray lady of the sea]

Thank you

[Proveone]

Your "information" is incorrect. Where did you get it? The medical experts (not the pillow guy or Scott Atlas, a radiologist) have said that the vaccine effectiveness will protect you from being seriously ill or hospitalized. They state that it is too early to say that people who have contracted Covid 19 will not pass it to someone else. Florida governor (aka Mini Me) as usual doesn't know what he is talking about. How is a vaccine verification card different than having a passport or driver's license?

[Dantes]

Yes we need travel documents to go state to state can’t wait until we change our flag to USSA United Socialist State’s of American
Not!

[allsport]

They need the vaccine also because their immunity is short lived while the vaccine works longer.

[allsport]

The joke is that he wants the cruise industry back and they require the vaccine. Oxymoron or just plain old moron?

[jbrown132]

So, if the airlines mandate it, what then?

You will probably be doing a lot of driving as they will probably put themselves out of business.

[Bigmo93]

I am totally opposed to vaccine passports. While we can’t control what other countries may require, we can in this country. It is against our God given rights guaranteed in the Constitution, to force individuals to put a chemical in their bodies just to be able to move around the country. I don’t want to be the Guinea Pig for a new and unproven technology. The simple fact is, if you take the vaccine you’re protected. If you don’t, then it’s your problem if you get sick and potentially die. However, the government has no right to force this decision. We are already moving way too fast to be the next Soviet Union.

[JMintzer]

So, if the airlines mandate it, what then?

Someone will sue, it'll go to SCOTUS, where it will most likely be found to be unconstitutional...

[JMintzer]

True, but many people would like to travel beyond Florida.....

DeSantis' mandate is for use in Florida... Not "beyond Florida"...

[bfarmer3]

I'd like to respectfully throw something out there for discussion and perhaps we can learn a bit from each other.

Our governor has said he will prohibit vaccine passports which would require us to prove we've been vaccinated in order to gain access to some businesses, offices, or restaurants.

I find it interesting because it speaks to how we all want the best for our country; we just approach it in different ways. Conservatives are not fond of government interference in general, but they support this proposal. Liberals are generally okay with government regulation but do indeed want a vaccine passport which DeSantis is opposing.

Just goes to show modern American life is not all cut and dried. We all have to give a little.

If you want to respond but feel the need to be belligerent or snarky, please move on to the next thread. Thanks.

Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis Says He'll Ban Vaccine Passports (https://www.businessinsider.com/florida-governor-ron-desantis-will-ban-vaccine-passports-2021-3)

You are definitely off base here. I am conservative and do not want the government or anyone else to stick their nose into my business. The idea of a vaccine passport is Orwellian. If you have your shot why do you care if I have one or not? It's none of your business.

[JMintzer]

I agree, but really isn't it common sense?
Think about it, you got the vaccine, you HAVE the card, just show it. Almost like getting proofed at a bar....prove your status.
But then there is the issue of losing the card, damage etc. ( I'm sorry, but whomever designed it wasn't thinking straight)...won't fit in my wallet, now thats going to lead to curled edges, putting it into pants pocket, purse pouch, all which will increase damage to it, or leaving on dresser etc,etc...all because of design. Maybe it should of been laminated like our licenses?
Better yet, maybe we all should be tatoo!!!!!
(Talk about stirring a pot)

Anyway way, got my vaccine, got my card...I'm proud and if you wanna see it, I'd be happy to flash you.😁

PLEASE NO! ;)

Those cardboard cards will be forged in record time...

[stanley]

Someone will sue, it'll go to SCOTUS, where it will most likely be found to be unconstitutional...

Let's hope so!

[JMintzer]

Those particular healthcare "experts" need to have their licenses revoked (if they even have a license).

The "garden-variety" flu is estimated to cause 35,000 US deaths per year. Covid is known to have caused nearly 500,000 deaths last year over and above the normal number of deaths expected in a single year. Whatever Covid is, it is NOT a garden-variety flu.

500K people died "with" Covid, not "due to" Covid...

[Just jimmy]

People are already forging vaccine cards and negative COVID tests. The passports will be the same. Don’t kid yourself.

[JMintzer]

I definitely support showing vaccines were given! Just like a Drivers License or Village ID but saving lives at least for the next 6-9 months. This thing is NOT over yet!

You really think it will only be required for the "next 6-9 months"?

Once you give up a freedom, try getting it back...

[kenoc7]

naw, you are missing the point. Covid, a worldwide pandemic, has killed more people in 12 months than HPV, Flu, Shingles, etc has in 50 years.

And many countries will require it anyway - plus airlines, cruiseships, etc...

Reality is, I'm a fan of the Governor, but this policy - having the vaccine and the passport - is the fastest way to get the world on track
How can anyone be a "fan" of DeathSantis?

[nick demis]

Wasn't there a country that required papers to move around their country in the late thirties and early forties?
No thank you, I like my independence and freedom.

[LiverpoolWalrus]

Well, conservatives supporting the vaccine ID cards is news to me. I'm conservative, and most of my friends are as well, and none of us support the vaccine ID cards. My guess is that MOST, but not all, conservatives would NOT agree with such a proposal.

Read it again, Jswirs... "Conservatives are not fond of government interference in general, but they support this proposal" <to ban vaccine passports>. That's the whole point of this thread.

In other words, conservatives are supporting the government interfering with restaurants, offices and other businesses by not letting them have the freedom to choose who they serve. This is contrary to basic conservative ideals.

[lem001]

Puhleeese! The "line is to be drawn" would be at COVID and only COVID which is currently the ONLY international pandemic still spreading worldwide and the only one in 100 years. None of your other examples are even close to what is happening.

In any case, my opinion to the question asked is I don't care either way whether they do or don't. Not really a BFD. All our personal information is available everywhere with just a little effort so this wouldn't matter 1 iota.



and what happens when a new strain is identified - do we go through the same process?

[gidget72]

I like what you had to say..thanks

[SacDQ]

Based on the never ending news we’re told the minority population of color are not stepping up for a vaccine. Forcing vaccine passports will create yet another issue impacting their life’s.

What’s next numbers tattooed on our foreheads

[JMintzer]

How can anyone be a "fan" of DeathSantis?

Oh, I dunno... Maybe because he prioritized protecting the most vulnerable in his state and has a much better outcome than either NY or CA?

[Lisanp@aol.com]

You can choose to get vaccinated or not - do as you choose. However, you will be required to show proof of vaccination to travel internationally (and probably to cruise too). So, even if the "passport" does not gain enough support domestically to come to fruition, it absolutely will internationally (and probably at Disney too). Thus, you may be required to get a vaccine to do something that you want to do - whether you support the vaccine or not. Again, an individual choice - get a vaccine or don't go on that European adventure - your choice. This is NOT new BTW - you are required to get (and show proof of) certain vaccines to enter many countries already! Parents are required to show proof of vaccination to enroll their children in school or camp, and this vaccine will just be one more added to that already long list. I don't understand why this is such a heated and political issue - when your doctor says you need to get your Shingles vaccine or your Pneumococcal vaccine you just go to the front desk to make an appointment...

[MFNOWLIN52]

From what I have read, in the future we are going to need proof of vaccination for travel purposes - especially out of the USA. It is what it is. I'd rather Desantis focus on more serious concerns!

[Buckeye Bleau]

naw, you are missing the point. Covid, a worldwide pandemic, has killed more people in 12 months than HPV, Flu, Shingles, etc has in 50 years.

And many countries will require it anyway - plus airlines, cruiseships, etc...

Reality is, I'm a fan of the Governor, but this policy - having the vaccine and the passport - is the fastest way to get the world on track

Great point but the facts are a little lacking.

Let us use CDC’s own numbers back in 8/2020. It had been reported that about 165,000 people in the USA expired from COVID-19. CDC admitted that the tabulation criteria were wrong and only about 6% of those were C-19 deaths. The remainder were folks who died and the pathogen was found in their blood. So the number was actually less than 10,000.
Now coupled that with testing that had up to 40% false positives and if further reduces the number. Don’t believe it? Well a week after the inauguration the CDC and the WHO recommended changes in the testing to reduce the number of false positives in the interest of improved accuracy.
You don’t hear much of that in the mass media do you?

You see they are using numbers from an inaccurate testing system and they purposely utilize the wrong words. They should be using “died WITH C-19 in their system” NOT “died FROM C-19”. There is a difference and they know it.
EVEN WITH THE BAD TESTS, 99% of those who contract it, recover, conclusion, we surrendered our freedom, our rights and our economy for something with less than 1% fatality rate AND that is IF you get this 5% contagion pathogen.

The Office of Management & Budget has investigated the CDC reporting anc found ghat they created their own reporting system for C-19 which is a violation of at least two legislative acts and this is why the CDC since late last year has been revising the numbers. But still the media is not covering those releases.

[coffeebean]

Is that all it means?????

Because all the buzz is that you will be REQUIRED to have one to travel, go to stadiums, restaurants etc---which IMHO is a violation of the first amendment and probably the 4th, 9th, and 10th as well

How about another amendment for upholding the safety and Public Health of citizens during a global pandemic?

[LiverpoolWalrus]

Don't worry, if you come across the southern border you are free to do whatever. No vaccine or 6' distance necessary, mask maybe if in a group of 6 or less. If sick free medical care. Come on in.

Hey Bay, why are you spreading that propaganda and hyperbole here? You've been on TOTV long enough to know 2 things:

1. We talk endlessly about how the media spews misinformation to try to brainwash us.

2. TOTV readers are exceptionally gullible (which might have something to do with how easy it is for the media to brainwash some of us). Some even believe gullible is not in the dictionary, or try to refute it that it is not.

[Spalumbos62]

“ I also favor mandatory vaccination, with those who refuse the vaccine required to pay for all their own medical bills if they get COVID-19 and have to be hospitalized”

Wow! That’s all I can say to that response!

I don't understand the "wow"
Vaccine is basically proven to prevent, getting covid with hospital stay cost insurance thousands. So why should insurance company pay for the whiners that " don't wanna get it".
Unless you have a medical reason for not getting this vaccine that could prevent......well, I say, you are on your own sister.
Ps...same should go for smokers

[Alana33]

The big deal about these vaccines is that they are not FDA approved and there’s no data about long term effects. That’s why some people are opting not to get them at this time which is their right.

FDA Issues Emergency Use Authorization for Third COVID-19 Vaccine | FDA (https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-issues-emergency-use-authorization-third-covid-19-vaccine)

[coffeebean]

If your protected by the vaccine then why do you care? Apparently you don’t trust it..

Take a look at the Cruise Critic members discussing this very issue. You will get your answer. Go on the Royal Caribbean forum for some very lively discussion. I'm not a Carnival cruiser at all but there is also extremely interesting discussion on that forum too.

[coffeebean]

Absolutely agree, I will not be forced to get a vaccine card...never..

Actually, what you are really saying is that you will not be forced to get a vaccine. Isn't that right? The card has nothing to do with it, really. Isn't that right?

[Swoop]

Spanish flu was the last time there was a pandemic and the governments responded similarly, except there never was a vaccine, and millions perished.

And yet in under two years it virtually ceased to exist...
SARS - no vaccine and virtually gone in under two years...
MERS - no vaccine and the outbreak lasted less than 3 years...
SARS & MERS were both Coronaviruses.

[Michiganders]

So true how you replied. I should have a say what chemical is put into my body without being labeled with a scarlet letter because I choose not to have the vaccine at this time. Our country fought for these freedoms to have them taken away. With all the people vaccinated already the possitive covid count should be going down drastically. If a person chooses to have the vaccine, I respect your decision, that is your right.

[Swoop]

I don't understand the "wow"
Vaccine is basically proven to prevent, getting covid with hospital stay cost insurance thousands. So why should insurance company pay for the whiners that " don't wanna get it".
Unless you have a medical reason for not getting this vaccine that could prevent......well, I say, you are on your own sister.
Ps...same should go for smokers
So do you also feel the same way about people who are overweight. That causes many complications that require medical care. Should we also include them in your “group”? Just wondering...

[coffeebean]

And I’ve worked through this entire time to keep you cared for and your not going to tell me that now I cannot have any freedom to go anywhere because you were scared. If your vaccinated what are you afraid of???

Hand raised>>>>>>>>>>>>>>May I answer that? I'm afraid we will not reach herd immunity the safe way with the vaccines. That is my concern. Not afraid for my own health because I feel pretty damn safe at this point.

[Jhnidy]

How did you determine the positions of conservatives and liberals?

[Roron123]

I’m with DeSantis we do not need a “passport” to prove we’ve had the vaccine! Carry the card that they give you on completion is enough or take a photo of it!

[Spalumbos62]

So do you also feel the same way about people who are overweight. That causes many complications that require medical care. Should we also include them in your “group”? Just wondering...

Oh, trust me...I see the problem, you are right, weight, drug use etc,etc.

But we can't expect our premiums to stay constant while we continue to stretch their bottom line, especially when it only takes a vaccine to avoid, which btw, they are paying for.
So, I guess I'm saying we have to stop this whining and try and turn things around.

[dewilson58]

I’m with DeSantis we do not need a “passport” to prove we’ve had the vaccine! Carry the card that they give you on completion is enough or take a photo of it!


We are getting closer & closer to getting microchips in our butts.
The chip could be loaded with the following information:
=Vaccine
=Repub or Demo or Indep
=TV hater or TV lover
=Glass 1/2 full or 1/2 empty person
=Impact Fee care or don't care
=Owner of pooping dog
=Cubs vs Cards
=Golf cart speeder vs 19.9
=Thin crust or Thick crust pizza lover


The list is endless. Then when you approach a person, just read their chip on your phone.


:ho:

[Alana33]

It's sad and distressing to see so many refusing to wear masks in public places and refuse to be vaccinated for the common good of all mankind.
This is a new disease that is constantly evolving with variant strains. We're lucky that science has evolved to produce a vaccination so quickly that protects against the original strain that cost so many lives in the U.S. and worldwide.
Will it protect against contracting variants?
Will we need booster shots? Who knows!
I've had both vaccinations but I'll continue to wear a mask in public.

As for vaccination passports, what's the big deal?
If you wish to travel, you'll need one.
Many countries and Caribbean destinations require negative test to enter, a test upon entry, 4 day quarantine with a location tracking app, until negative test returned and testing prior to departure plus wear masks in all public places.
They've worked hard to protect their citizens and their medical and healthcare infrastructures from being overwhelmed. They're going to continue to do so, whether antimaskers and antivaccers like it or not. We are nowhere near herd immunity in the U.S.

Cayman Islands, for instance, is not allowing any airline, yacht, nor cruise ships entry until 80% of their population is vaccinated. Smart move.

DeSantis can gripe all he wants but vaccination passports will be required as they should be whether he or you like it or not.

[stevesliders]

naw, you are missing the point. Covid, a worldwide pandemic, has killed more people in 12 months than HPV, Flu, Shingles, etc has in 50 years.

And many countries will require it anyway - plus airlines, cruiseships, etc...

Reality is, I'm a fan of the Governor, but this policy - having the vaccine and the passport - is the fastest way to get the world on track

Why would anyone support a person who has no regard for your health and well being.

[stevesliders]

Why would anyone support a person who has no regard for your health and well being.

[Tmarkwald]

People have lost their minds! The government controlling who travels and where? Are you a bunch of Nazi’s? You give up your freedoms so easily. No wonder crazy people get into high office, stupid people put them there, acting like sheep.


Nobody is controlling where you go!

Where did you get that idea?

Of course, you may not be able to get a passport or travel internationally or even on an aircraft. You DO have all your freedoms, and other countries have to decide whether to let you in or not. You don't a RIGHT of entry go to a foreign country

[Tmarkwald]

Yes we need travel documents to go state to state can’t wait until we change our flag to USSA United Socialist State’s of American
Not!

Nobody has suggested that. Chill out with the wierdness please...

[Topspinmo]

I'd like to respectfully throw something out there for discussion and perhaps we can learn a bit from each other.

Our governor has said he will prohibit vaccine passports which would require us to prove we've been vaccinated in order to gain access to some businesses, offices, or restaurants.

I find it interesting because it speaks to how we all want the best for our country; we just approach it in different ways. Conservatives are not fond of government interference in general, but they support this proposal. Liberals are generally okay with government regulation but do indeed want a vaccine passport which DeSantis is opposing.

Just goes to show modern American life is not all cut and dried. We all have to give a little.

If you want to respond but feel the need to be belligerent or snarky, please move on to the next thread. Thanks.

Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis Says He'll Ban Vaccine Passports (https://www.businessinsider.com/florida-governor-ron-desantis-will-ban-vaccine-passports-2021-3)


IMO it should mandatory in United States a Nd to kill two birds with one stone add voter ID to it.

[drducat]

This is something to be asked of citizens of China...the CCP are experts at taking away human rights.

[Tmarkwald]

Based on the never ending news we’re told the minority population of color are not stepping up for a vaccine.

Really wrong

KFF COVID-19 Vaccine Monitor Dashboard | KFF (https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/dashboard/kff-covid-19-vaccine-monitor-dashboard/?gclid=CjwKCAjwu5CDBhB9EiwA0w6sLRcsN2BBEcqkxQEZrG2 jNLB2YrwzyAK-SNkB4EHCy5mBgc5lbMC1YxoCgAEQAvD_BwE)

[Tmarkwald]

As far as vaccine cards?

You can buy fake cards for $5 online. That proves nothing...

[MrWilson]

Businesses and govt forcing a citizen to ingest any chemical, drug or chip is wrong.
When do individuals get their “ inalienable right” to be free.
Govt telling us to drug up is bad , businesses are intolerable

[Astron]

Vaccine passport to go shopping is a whole different ballgame.
I am very surprised by the Governor extending the passport ban to private businesses. The traditional conservative mantra is to let the market decide. If Publix wants to require a vaccination to shop there, shouldn’t the conservative position be to let them. If people stop shopping there, they will remove the requirement, if people feel safer there, their business will increase. Let the market decide.

[allenpegg1@gmail.com]

Forced vaccine passports? This leads the way for IMPLANTING CHIPS!!!

[FromNY]

I think it is important that our paid elected people have the ability to not be sheep to their party. That if something conservative does not feel right they are able to Think and change the policies. It is suppose to be for the Well being of ALL the people .Not for can I get reelected... This pandemic has brought firth more than a lifetimes share of pain and frustrations. No matter what political stand how about giving a damn about the people and our lives. Currently the governor wants to groom to be president or at least get reelected as governor. Personally I do not care. I want to see our state get more easily accessible vaccines. Masks and hand washing to continue until hospital care can recuperate from the past year. This pandemic is not over and as long as 50 different political motivated governors do their own thing for their own benefit we all lose.
Would be nice if even for a few months everyone could sacrifice their egos and be on the same page.

[LiverpoolWalrus]

Um, I do believe you have this completely backwards...

The GOP is against the Vaccine Passport. In fact, DeSantis is passing a law specifically denying it's use in Florida...

Um, read my original post again, jmintzer. The GOP supports the ban on vaccine passports, thereby tolerating the government's interference in the freedom of offices, restaurants and businesses to decide whom they want to serve. This is contrary to conservative principles.

Sorry you misunderstood.

[Tmarkwald]

Forced vaccine passports? This leads the way for IMPLANTING CHIPS!!!

I think you are reading too much in this. Majority of it is purely political to elicit responses just like yours. No brick and mortar business is going to require people to carry a vaccine passport around with this, It is simply a non starter.

However, it is entirely likely that air travel, cruise travel, and most international travel will require the passport.

I'm sure 100 years ago when people were forced to get driver's licenses they had the same reactions!

[Heyitsrick]

Nobody is controlling where you go!

Where did you get that idea?

Of course, you may not be able to get a passport or travel internationally or even on an aircraft. You DO have all your freedoms, and other countries have to decide whether to let you in or not. You don't a RIGHT of entry go to a foreign country

I've read your prolific posts here on this subject, and you seem to have this notion that the value of a traveler to a destination is all one-sided. In other words, if the destination country lays down some rules and the traveler can't/won't meet them, the only one who loses is the would-be traveler. Really?

So, the business $$ a traveler would spend at the destination mean nothing? The social media (or other) presumably positive comments a traveler would make after an enjoyable trip promoting the destination to friends/relatives/internet mean nothing?

Countries can make whatever rules they want about tourists and protecting their citizens, as is their right. But a complete discussion would acknowledge what they - and the businesses in their respective countries that depend on this tourism - stand to lose, as well.

Don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying one shouldn't get vaccinated (I have). This discussion is about digital vaccination passports.

It's the data, and who has access to it, in my book. We've become so cavalier about sharing personal data. There's very little trust in how government utilizes such.

Here's a snippet from an article about the "New York Excelsior Pass" digital passport:



According to one expert that Gothamist/WNYC interviewed, the app's privacy policy doesn't state how the data is tracked or kept safe.

But one expert contends that the platform's privacy policy fails to outline how secure the app really is.

Essentially, there are no guarantees in the terms of service that say whether the information won't be accessed by police departments or the Immigration or Customs Enforcement agency, said Albert Fox Cahn, an attorney and the founder of Surveillance Technology Oversight Project, an advocacy group ensuring privacy rights are upheld.

"I have more detailed technical documentation about the privacy impact of nearly every app on my phone than I do for this health pass," he told them. "IBM and the governor are using lots of buzzwords, but they're not explaining their cryptographic model. They're not explaining the security, implementation. And on top of it, the pass itself is incredibly revealing, disclosing not only people's health status, and name but their date of birth."

[LiverpoolWalrus]

Those particular healthcare "experts" need to have their licenses revoked (if they even have a license).

The "garden-variety" flu is estimated to cause 35,000 US deaths per year. Covid is known to have caused nearly 500,000 deaths last year over and above the normal number of deaths expected in a single year. Whatever Covid is, it is NOT a garden-variety flu.

Just astonishing that people are STILL having to say this a year later.

[Rooklift]

Show your evidence that conservatives are for a vaccine id card. I disagree with your claim.


I'd like to respectfully throw something out there for discussion and perhaps we can learn a bit from each other.

Our governor has said he will prohibit vaccine passports which would require us to prove we've been vaccinated in order to gain access to some businesses, offices, or restaurants.

I find it interesting because it speaks to how we all want the best for our country; we just approach it in different ways. Conservatives are not fond of government interference in general, but they support this proposal. Liberals are generally okay with government regulation but do indeed want a vaccine passport which DeSantis is opposing.

Just goes to show modern American life is not all cut and dried. We all have to give a little.

If you want to respond but feel the need to be belligerent or snarky, please move on to the next thread. Thanks.

Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis Says He'll Ban Vaccine Passports (https://www.businessinsider.com/florida-governor-ron-desantis-will-ban-vaccine-passports-2021-3)

[LiverpoolWalrus]

Today vaccination passport Tomorrow passport to leave your home. Too much government control.

See what I mean? (Yet?!?)

The government, via DeSantis, is trying to control businesses' freedom to choose whom they serve.

[Heyitsrick]

I think you are reading too much in this. Majority of it is purely political to elicit responses just like yours. No brick and mortar business is going to require people to carry a vaccine passport around with this, It is simply a non starter.

However, it is entirely likely that air travel, cruise travel, and most international travel will require the passport.

I'm sure 100 years ago when people were forced to get driver's licenses they had the same reactions!

How would you know whether retail establishments wouldn't require these? Do they not already require masking? Why would you think this only a "travel" thing?

This is what NY's Excelsior Pass is meant to do:

The Excelsior Pass app, which launched Friday, shares vaccination and negative test results with art and entertainment venues and businesses (including major stadiums and arenas, wedding receptions and catered events above the social gathering limit) by using a QR code that these places scan.

(emphasis mine)

[RodSheets]

My medical status is protected by law. I’m one who wants to keep that protection.

[Tmarkwald]

I've read your prolific posts here on this subject, and you seem to have this notion that the value of a traveler to a destination is all one-sided. In other words, if the destination country lays down some rules and the traveler can't/won't meet them, the only one who loses is the would-be traveler. Really?

So, the business $$ a traveler would spend at the destination mean nothing? The social media (or other) presumably positive comments a traveler would make after an enjoyable trip promoting the destination to friends/relatives/internet mean nothing?

Countries can make whatever rules they want about tourists and protecting their citizens, as is their right. But a complete discussion would acknowledge what they - and the businesses in their respective countries that depend on this tourism - stand to lose, as well.

Don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying one shouldn't get vaccinated (I have). This discussion is about digital vaccination passports.

It's the data, and who has access to it, in my book. We've become so cavalier about sharing personal data. There's very little trust in how government utilizes such.

Here's a snippet from an article about the "New York Excelsior Pass" digital passport:

Great comments - I'm more about the leisure traveler. Business travel is a different animal entirely. A long discourse on that is pointless, I suppose since international business will continue regardless of any restrictions on travel. Any business that can be conducted remotely will probably continue after a year of doing so.

However, the leisure traveler will certainly not be spending the $$ in the destination since they won't be there. But I doubt that the impact to the economy will be greater than if unvaccinated travelers show up and then a population center gets a Covid-19 breakout.

So, my assumption is that, at least for the foreseeable future, restricting travel only to those who can unequivocally prove they are inoculated is the safest way to keep any outbreaks from occurring. Everyone is running scared right now...

[drstevens]

Some people can't get these experimental vaccines because of health issues, allergies, chemotherapy drugs, etc. IMHO This would create another documentation issue and more regulation.

[LiverpoolWalrus]

You are definitely off base here. I am conservative and do not want the government or anyone else to stick their nose into my business. The idea of a vaccine passport is Orwellian. If you have your shot why do you care if I have one or not? It's none of your business.

Yet another misread, God love us! Let's FOCUS!

Read my original post, bfarmer... "Conservatives are not fond of government interference in general, but they support this proposal" <to ban vaccine passports>. That's the whole point of this thread.

In other words, conservatives are supporting the government interfering with restaurants, offices and other businesses by not letting them have the freedom to choose who they serve. This is contrary to basic conservative ideals.

Sorry you misunderstood.

[Rooklift]

How can your vacation be ruined by someone getting sick? If you are vaccinated then there is no issue. Stop trying to impose your will on me.

[Heyitsrick]

See what I mean? (Yet?!?)

The government, via DeSantis, is trying to control businesses' freedom to choose whom they serve.

Funny thing, that "freedom to choose whom they serve" notion. You must mean it's ok for a company to enforce a policy such as "we don't serve Englishmen here" or some such, right? That's the "freedom" you're referring to?

[Sailohio]

I'd like to respectfully throw something out there for discussion and perhaps we can learn a bit from each other.

Our governor has said he will prohibit vaccine passports which would require us to prove we've been vaccinated in order to gain access to some businesses, offices, or restaurants.

I find it interesting because it speaks to how we all want the best for our country; we just approach it in different ways. Conservatives are not fond of government interference in general, but they support this proposal. Liberals are generally okay with government regulation but do indeed want a vaccine passport which DeSantis is opposing.

Just goes to show modern American life is not all cut and dried. We all have to give a little.

If you want to respond but feel the need to be belligerent or snarky, please move on to the next thread. Thanks.

Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis Says He'll Ban Vaccine Passports (https://www.businessinsider.com/florida-governor-ron-desantis-will-ban-vaccine-passports-2021-3)

I think our governor is being consistent with Republicans restricting government control by opposing Covid passports. He would be supporting government control if he allowed our state to require them.

[LiverpoolWalrus]

How did you determine the positions of conservatives and liberals?

The observations I made in my original post are common general knowledge and pretty universally accepted political doctrine. You think I would dare stick my neck out on this board if they weren't ironclad? If you disagree, please sing out!

[Heyitsrick]

Great comments - I'm more about the leisure traveler. Business travel is a different animal entirely. A long discourse on that is pointless, I suppose since international business will continue regardless of any restrictions on travel. Any business that can be conducted remotely will probably continue after a year of doing so.

However, the leisure traveler will certainly not be spending the $$ in the destination since they won't be there. But I doubt that the impact to the economy will be greater than if unvaccinated travelers show up and then a population center gets a Covid-19 breakout.

So, my assumption is that, at least for the foreseeable future, restricting travel only to those who can unequivocally prove they are inoculated is the safest way to keep any outbreaks from occurring. Everyone is running scared right now...

I wasn't talking about "business travel". I mean everyday people going on vacations. To an entity that depends upon tourism, every individual visitor counts.

Why would someone need to show or present a digital-based card to prove they've been vaccinated? So now the CDC paper cards people are given post vaccination(s) are already obsolete?

[Tmarkwald]

How can your vacation be ruined by someone getting sick?

How can you even address this...

hmmm, you're at a resort. Some unvaccinated person causes an outbreak amongst other nonvaccinated and you go on lockdown;

You're on a 14 night cruise and on day 3 someone gets sick and you are confined to your cabin for the rest of the trip - or quarantined in a foreign port.

You're on one of those 15 hour flights to Asia/Africa and someone gets very ill on the flight and is taken off - spot check reveals Covid. You're escorted in a quarantine hotel ..

Get the picture? What gives anyone the right to recklessly endanger someone else's livelihood or leisure time?

[LiverpoolWalrus]

Businesses and govt forcing a citizen to ingest any chemical, drug or chip is wrong.
When do individuals get their “ inalienable right” to be free.
Govt telling us to drug up is bad , businesses are intolerable

Okay, but aren't restaurants, offices and businesses also free to determine who they wish to serve? Otherwise we're interfering with their freedom, which is a conservative no no.

[LiverpoolWalrus]

I am very surprised by the Governor extending the passport ban to private businesses. The traditional conservative mantra is to let the market decide. If Publix wants to require a vaccination to shop there, shouldn’t the conservative position be to let them. If people stop shopping there, they will remove the requirement, if people feel safer there, their business will increase. Let the market decide.

THANK YOU!!! Finally someone gets the essence of my original post!!!

Muhammad has come to the mountain!

[Tmarkwald]

Okay, but aren't restaurants, offices and businesses also free to determine who they wish to serve? Otherwise we're interfering with their freedom, which is a conservative no no.


Yes, they have the right to refuse service for sure..

"Can airlines, restaurants, stores and stadiums make the vaccine a condition of doing business with you?

Yes, within the anti-discrimination laws.

“They can decide to refuse service to you for pretty much any reason,” "most shoppers are already familiar with: no shirt, no shoes, no service."

People who are covered by anti-discrimination laws can’t just demand a business let them do whatever they want.

The company just has to give you a reasonable accommodation, so a store might refuse you entry but offer curbside pick-up of groceries.

source: Will the COVID-19 vaccine be mandatory? What the law says (https://www.today.com/health/will-covid-19-vaccine-be-mandatory-t190838)

[blueash]

Idiotic idea-----Very Simple

Why?????
Because even those that are vaccinated may be in the 5% that do not acquire immunity (or 20+% with J&J or Astra-Zeneca), and then there is the question of how long that immunity lasts. So someone gets the vaccine, gets the "passport", and then we still don't know if they are any different than the unvaccinated. And they are certainly less protected than those who had COVID and recovered, but not vaccinated.
How long is the "passport" good for? Renew every what? 3 months,6 months, year? How do you get "100% proof" that a person previously vaccinated is still immune? The "experts" tell us that the antibody test is not valid for that purpose, it is only a marker of previous infection or vaccination. (If it is like most antibody tests, immunity would be dependent upon the titer, usually a 1:32 dilution is adequate, but this is a novel virus and I don't think this has been studied)

So playing out this "passport" scenario, it would be entirely possible, even likely, that someone who has been vaccinated (but did not acquire immunity), has the paperwork to travel, shop, eat out , etc. , while the person next to him in line without the "passport" but is totally immune by virtue of previous infection is denied those privileges. Same with someone whose did acquire immunity, has the "passport", but enough time has passed that their immunity has faded.

Add to the ineffectiveness of such a "passport" plan is the enormous task of actually enforcing it. Most retail stores that currently REQUIRE a mask do not challenge customers who are not wearing one. Imagine the difficulty with something as invasive as a vaccine?

I am disappointed and expect better from you. No vaccine is 100% effective. Nonetheless children cannot go to school without proof of immunization. You know that and I think you support that. No school would claim that having their students immunized totally guarantees that those particular illnesses will never be spread in the school. But requiring proof of immunization is the best a school can do, so that is what the law requires. Might some parent forge a vaccine certificate, sure.

All those countries that require proof of Yellow Fever vaccination. Are you going to tell them what a foolish idea that is as the vaccine likely has a failure rate as well or do you think that is a reasonable precaution against a disease that kills about 50,000 a year? Over time, if we get a requirement for a Covid passport, the issues of how recent a booster is needed for the passport to be valid will be answered. You know that.

Arguing that a vaccine passport is not perfect is not a reason to reject the idea. No public health measure is perfect. No vaccine is perfect. Don't let perfect be the enemy of the good. You know that too.

[LiverpoolWalrus]

Show your evidence that conservatives are for a vaccine id card. I disagree with your claim.

And another misread.

Read my original post, Rook..."Conservatives are not fond of government interference in general, but they support this proposal" <to ban vaccine passports>. That's the whole point of this thread.

In other words, conservatives are supporting the government interfering with restaurants, offices and other businesses by not letting them have the freedom to choose who they serve. This is contrary to basic conservative ideals.

Sorry you misunderstood.

HEY MOD - how about retiring this thread? Too many are not getting it. And others are talking about something else.

Only one person in 14 pages got my point about the governor going against conservative principles. Everything else that can be said tangentially has been said.

[Tmarkwald]

I am disappointed and expect better from you. No vaccine is 100% effective. Nonetheless children cannot go to school without proof of immunization. You know that and I think you support that. No school would claim that having their students immunized totally guarantees that those particular illnesses will never be spread in the school. But requiring proof of immunization is the best a school can do, so that is what the law requires. Might some parent forge a vaccine certificate, sure.

All those countries that require proof of Yellow Fever vaccination. Are you going to tell them what a foolish idea that is as the vaccine likely has a failure rate as well or do you think that is a reasonable precaution against a disease that kills about 50,000 a year? Over time, if we get a requirement for a Covid passport, the issues of how recent a booster is needed for the passport to be valid will be answered. You know that.

Arguing that a vaccine passport is not perfect is not a reason to reject the idea. No public health measure is perfect. No vaccine is perfect. Don't let perfect be the enemy of the good. You know that too.

Remember Polio? Well, thanks to anti-vaxxers, it's coming back....

In 2019, some humans have continued to spew anti-vaccination propaganda not backed by scientific evidence, claiming that vaccine-preventable diseases are not that serious and that stuff like supplements can replace vaccinations. This has essentially served as good PR for the polio viruses, hindering efforts to vaccinate people around the world.

Fighting Polio: What Happened In 2019 And What Is Next (https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucelee/2020/01/12/fighting-polio-what-happened-in-2019-and-what-is-next/?sh=989d1e8743c8)

[Spalumbos62]

Businesses and govt forcing a citizen to ingest any chemical, drug or chip is wrong.
When do individuals get their “ inalienable right” to be free.
Govt telling us to drug up is bad , businesses are intolerable

I really feel some people have a mental block or lack of reasoning.
No one is saying you must get vaccinated, you must then carry your card to " come aboard"
They are saying...if you want to enter and eat at MY restaurant, you need a vaccine and mask. You want to ride my boat....again vaccine/proof and mask. Etc,etc
You and I have all these wonderful rights.....but there are rules. There is no malice toward you...just safety rules.
No pouting,or crying or acting like a child is gonna change it.
So please stop.

[LiverpoolWalrus]

Funny thing, that "freedom to choose whom they serve" notion. You must mean it's ok for a company to enforce a policy such as "we don't serve Englishmen here" or some such, right? That's the "freedom" you're referring to?

So what's your position, Rick? Should businesses be free to choose? If so, that's a classic conservative position. If not free to choose whom they serve, well, that's DeSantis' proposal.

Me, no, I don't believe businesses have the right to deprive people of basic human rights. And I don't care if they are "private." The Supreme Court has ruled that corporations are "people" because individual humans are behind corporate decisions to grant or withhold equal treatment.

[Tmarkwald]

Me, no, I don't believe businesses have the right to deprive people of basic human rights. And I don't care if they are "private." The Supreme Court has ruled that corporations are "people" because individual humans are behind corporate decisions to grant or withhold equal treatment.

I don't believe anyone has the right to deprive people of basic human rights. But going to McDonalds or shopping at Wal-Mart is not a basic human right.

And a business has the right to choose who they cater to. This is a capitalist country, so the 'no shirt, no shoes, no service' rules are understood. In the same way, 'no mask, no service' has been the norm for nearly a year. And that is perfectly understood.

Notice I said understood - not agreeing with it, but it's a small price to pay when we see the light at the end of the tunnel.

So, proving vaccination? Well, I can see the issue that would cause. Tough one there...

[LiverpoolWalrus]

I think our governor is being consistent with Republicans restricting government control by opposing Covid passports. He would be supporting government control if he allowed our state to require them.

Two sides to the coin and that's what I meant by political overlap and no cut and dried answers in modern American policy. I'm glad you see the conundrum.

Yes, vaccine passports undermine freedom. The challenge is deciding who's more adversely affected - the individual, or businesses? Interfering in the freedom of either is anathema to conservative principles.

Nothing is easy in politics so we might as well get used to living together as harmoniously as possible.

[GeriS]

I'd like to respectfully throw something out there for discussion and perhaps we can learn a bit from each other.

Our governor has said he will prohibit vaccine passports which would require us to prove we've been vaccinated in order to gain access to some businesses, offices, or restaurants.

I find it interesting because it speaks to how we all want the best for our country; we just approach it in different ways. Conservatives are not fond of government interference in general, but they support this proposal. Liberals are generally okay with government regulation but do indeed want a vaccine passport which DeSantis is opposing.

Just goes to show modern American life is not all cut and dried. We all have to give a little.

If you want to respond but feel the need to be belligerent or snarky, please move on to the next thread. Thanks.

Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis Says He'll Ban Vaccine Passports (https://www.businessinsider.com/florida-governor-ron-desantis-will-ban-vaccine-passports-2021-3)
Who says conservatives approve of a vaccine passport? Might as well wear a gold star. Do you really want to go down that road for something that has a 99.xxx% recovery rate? Don't you get what has been pushed on us? Keep everyone afraid. If it's so bad wear are all of the dead people who never wore masks?

[chrissy52]

They should not required vaccinations for everything that should be a person's choice we open up the borders everybody comes in they do not get vaccinated you're not even tested why should us American have to follow some rules by the government that should be uncalled for

[Heyitsrick]

So what's your position, Rick? Should businesses be free to choose? If so, that's a classic conservative position. If not free to choose whom they serve, well, that's DeSantis' proposal.

Me, no, I don't believe businesses have the right to deprive people of basic human rights. And I don't care if they are "private." The Supreme Court has ruled that corporations are "people" because individual humans are behind corporate decisions to grant or withhold equal treatment.

Actually, it was your question to answer. And now we see that you mean "they should be free to choose (well, except when there are exceptions, that is)".

See, the problem you have is that you want to paint DeSantis with this broad brush, claiming he's being anti-conservative somehow. But he doesn't see this as a "freedom to choose for businesses" issue. He sees it as a governmental intrusion issue on the people. DeSantis was elected by the people of Florida, not the private businesses of Florida. He's saying the people have the right to choose, unencumbered by other concerns.

You're free to disagree with his point of view, of course. But it's a little odd that not requiring his state's residents to have to show a vaccination passport is somehow anti-conservative. Well, that is unless you buy into the notion that conservative folks only care about businesses and not individuals.

Side note: your note to the mods to retire this thread because people aren't getting it is due to the way you wrote part of the post:

Conservatives are not fond of government interference in general, but they support this proposal.

What proposal? Having a vaccine passport? Yes, we know now you actually meant DeSantis's "proposal" to prohibit requiring a vaccine passport in the state. You've had to clarify what you meant more than once, when simply editing the original post could have sufficed.

[Tmarkwald]

If it's so bad wear are all of the dead people who never wore masks?

You mean the 2,821,235 worldwide or just the 564,399 from the US?

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Is that all it means?????

Because all the buzz is that you will be REQUIRED to have one to travel, go to stadiums, restaurants etc---which IMHO is a violation of the first amendment and probably the 4th, 9th, and 10th as well

It's only a violation of those amendments if the government forces businesses to require and enforce those restrictions.

Businesses have the right to require and enforce those restrictions if they choose to already. I mean heck - in some states, a business is allowed to refuse service to a homosexual, on the grounds that their sexual preference violates the business owner's freedom of religion.

But go ahead and tell us all about how bad it is for Publix to make you show the vaccine card you ALREADY GOT when you got vaccinated, violates your freedoms.

(clue: it doesn't. You still have the freedom to go to Winn Dixie, where they don't check those cards. Or to Walmart, where you could show them the 8 of Clubs and they'll nod it through. Or Amazon, where they have no way of checking anyway)

[petiteone]

The idea of "vaccine passports" is contradictory with what the vaccine advocates contend is true. They contend that people who get the vaccine will be safe from catching and transmitting the virus. If this premise is true, then they should have no worry about being around someone who hasn't had the vaccine. Perhaps the person had the virus and recovered with no problems... in which case, their immunity is probably as good as someone who had the vaccine. Even if they haven't had the virus, the unvaccinated person is the one at greater risk by being there than the vaccinated person, so why should they be prohibited from any public place?

From the Medical Journals I've read - At this stage it is stated that the vaccine doesn't protect one from getting COVID, it is effective in preventing vaccinated individuals dying from it. How much or how long a person vaccinated or one recovering from Covid is protected long term is still unknown. (I'm a retired MD)

[LiverpoolWalrus]

Who says conservatives approve of a vaccine passport? Might as well wear a gold star. Do you really want to go down that road for something that has a 99.xxx% recovery rate? Don't you get what has been pushed on us? Keep everyone afraid. If it's so bad wear are all of the dead people who never wore masks?

Unbelievable. Geri, please scroll up and see where the other misunderstandings have been been put straight. Thank you.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Agreed

And I'd be mighty irritated if my vacation was impacted by somebody who refused to get a vaccine and then got sick.

100% proof of vaccination or you don't travel. Very Simple.

If your protected by the vaccine then why do you care? Apparently you don’t trust it..

For easier comprehension on your behalf, Co Bully Mom:

Let's say you book a 12-day cruise. Let's say a few people who refused vaccines, get sick on the ship. Now you end up with a cruise ship with people who are sick, and spreading disease to all the other passengers, some of whom might also not be vaccinated. You won't be able to dock anywhere, no one at any port will allow anyone to debark. Everyone will be quarantined.

That is what he means by "impact." Not that he himself personally will get sick, but the entire vacation will be impacted by people who are in the same hotel, on the same airplane, on the same cruise ship, who have refused to vaccinate and are showing symptoms of COVID.

[Tmarkwald]

For easier comprehension on your behalf, Co Bully Mom:

Let's say you book a 12-day cruise. Let's say a few people who refused vaccines, get sick on the ship. Now you end up with a cruise ship with people who are sick, and spreading disease to all the other passengers, some of whom might also not be vaccinated. You won't be able to dock anywhere, no one at any port will allow anyone to debark. Everyone will be quarantined.

That is what he means by "impact." Not that he himself personally will get sick, but the entire vacation will be impacted by people who are in the same hotel, on the same airplane, on the same cruise ship, who have refused to vaccinate and are showing symptoms of COVID.

It's almost like 'guilt by association'. We may not be guilty(infected), but we're on the same plane, ship, resort,,,, as people whom become infected, so we are affected as well.

[donassaid]

Requiring people to have an "experimental" vaccine that has caused thousands to get sick and dozens to die is irresponsible and unconstitutional. All this for a virus with over a 99% survival rate.

[donassaid]

The Constitution guarantees the rights of individuals, not businesses.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

I don't believe anyone has the right to deprive people of basic human rights. But going to McDonalds or shopping at Wal-Mart is not a basic human right.

And a business has the right to choose who they cater to. This is a capitalist country, so the 'no shirt, no shoes, no service' rules are understood. In the same way, 'no mask, no service' has been the norm for nearly a year. And that is perfectly understood.

Notice I said understood - not agreeing with it, but it's a small price to pay when we see the light at the end of the tunnel.

So, proving vaccination? Well, I can see the issue that would cause. Tough one there...

My personal thoughts on this (up until now I have been arguing a point, not offering my feelings about it):

When we get vaccinated, we get a card. This is the current situation. I wish the card was smaller, business-card sized so it could be laminated if someone wanted to do so, and kept in a wallet without folding it.

I would be FINE with having to present it for travel over the north or south border by car, or anywhere by boat or airplane. I would also be FINE with people being told they cannot board the ship/plane without a match of that card to their ID.

I would ALSO be FINE with a stamp added to actual normal passports, to show that a person has received that (or any other) vaccine, so that no one would need that smaller card as long as they bring their passport - which also serves as identification, AND as - well - a passport.

I would be fine with any business having a policy: You may either enter and shop here wearing a mask, OR you may enter and shop here without one if you show us your card proving you were vaccinated. You may do either one.

I personally would love to go shopping without a mask on. I look forward to the day when it's considered acceptable to do it again. But I also enjoy the freedom I feel in knowing that I am immunized against the virus. As someone who is now free to enjoy my immunization, I have absolutely positively zero problem with showing anyone who wants to see it, that card. In fact I posted it on my facebook account, which is open to the public.

I can't imagine why anyone would have a problem with showing their covid vaccine card. You can even cover up the ID number with a little post-it strip so they can see your name and the clinic's official stamp and the dates of whichever vaccine you had, but not your personally-identifying ID number.

It's really not a big deal, except to people who are choosing to make it one.

[donassaid]

Well said.

[Tmarkwald]

Requiring people to have an "experimental" vaccine that has caused thousands to get sick and dozens to die is irresponsible and unconstitutional. All this for a virus with over a 99% survival rate.

OK, let's see - EXPERIMENTAL VACCINE? Nope, not even close

KFF COVID-19 Vaccine Monitor Dashboard | KFF (https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/dashboard/kff-covid-19-vaccine-monitor-dashboard/?gclid=CjwKCAjwu5CDBhB9EiwA0w6sLeylsOPaSvzC61Vl3n4 H-7-hJQjJFSoZ4rFkCLpMdmYH5P6xjhFHbRoCMRAQAvD_BwE)
Coronavirus vaccine development: from SARS and MERS to COVID-19 - PubMed (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33341119/)


'THOUSANDS GET SICK? Nope again!

Myths and Facts about COVID-19 Vaccines | CDC (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/facts.html)


People dying by the dozens from the vaccine? TRIFECTA! Wrong on all THREE !

No detected patterns in cause of death that would indicate a safety problem with COVID-19 vaccines.

Selected Adverse Events Reported after COVID-19 Vaccination | CDC (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/adverse-events.html)

Ok, YOUR turn to source where your 'facts' are coming from....

[Tmarkwald]

My personal thoughts on this (up until now I have been arguing a point, not offering my feelings about it):

When we get vaccinated, we get a card. This is the current situation. I wish the card was smaller, business-card sized so it could be laminated if someone wanted to do so, and kept in a wallet without folding it.

I would be FINE with having to present it for travel over the north or south border by car, or anywhere by boat or airplane. I would also be FINE with people being told they cannot board the ship/plane without a match of that card to their ID.

I would ALSO be FINE with a stamp added to actual normal passports, to show that a person has received that (or any other) vaccine, so that no one would need that smaller card as long as they bring their passport - which also serves as identification, AND as - well - a passport.

I would be fine with any business having a policy: You may either enter and shop here wearing a mask, OR you may enter and shop here without one if you show us your card proving you were vaccinated. You may do either one.

I personally would love to go shopping without a mask on. I look forward to the day when it's considered acceptable to do it again. But I also enjoy the freedom I feel in knowing that I am immunized against the virus. As someone who is now free to enjoy my immunization, I have absolutely positively zero problem with showing anyone who wants to see it, that card. In fact I posted it on my facebook account, which is open to the public.

I can't imagine why anyone would have a problem with showing their covid vaccine card. You can even cover up the ID number with a little post-it strip so they can see your name and the clinic's official stamp and the dates of whichever vaccine you had, but not your personally-identifying ID number.

It's really not a big deal, except to people who are choosing to make it one.

excellent comment. makes perfect sense.

[Swoop]

I'd like to respectfully throw something out there for discussion and perhaps we can learn a bit from each other.

Our governor has said he will prohibit vaccine passports which would require us to prove we've been vaccinated in order to gain access to some businesses, offices, or restaurants.

I find it interesting because it speaks to how we all want the best for our country; we just approach it in different ways. Conservatives are not fond of government interference in general, but they support this proposal. Liberals are generally okay with government regulation but do indeed want a vaccine passport which DeSantis is opposing.

Just goes to show modern American life is not all cut and dried. We all have to give a little.

If you want to respond but feel the need to be belligerent or snarky, please move on to the next thread. Thanks.

Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis Says He'll Ban Vaccine Passports (https://www.businessinsider.com/florida-governor-ron-desantis-will-ban-vaccine-passports-2021-3)

If you open your link it states: “Vaccine passports are being developed or introduced in dozens of countries around the world and have been touted as a means for businesses that were shut during the pandemic to reopen safely.”
Thanks to our governor, our state hasn’t been shutdown. Unlike states that had oppressive mandates, we have remained mostly open and have faired as well or better than those states with oppressive mandates. Are you really trying to spin the idea that if a state like Pennsylvania, with oppressive mandates, used a vaccine passport to reopen, it would constitute less government regulation than Florida’s policy?!? The concept you are trying to spin is truly absurd.

[Bill14564]

My personal thoughts on this (up until now I have been arguing a point, not offering my feelings about it):


.....

I can't imagine why anyone would have a problem with showing their covid vaccine card. You can even cover up the ID number with a little post-it strip so they can see your name and the clinic's official stamp and the dates of whichever vaccine you had, but not your personally-identifying ID number.

It's really not a big deal, except to people who are choosing to make it one.

That sounds a lot like, "if you have nothing to hide then you won't mind allowing the police to search your house." No, it's not the same level of intrusion but it is still an intrusion.

My personal opinion is I've seen enough and experienced enough that I value my freedom and my privacy; I want to protect mine and protect others as well. What frightens me is the argument that I should be willing to give up my freedom and privacy because someone else is willing to give up theirs.

[Bertram00]

Walmart, Publix, Panera etc. can't even enforce their mask requirements, do you really think these businesses are going to check everybody's papers. Vaccine Passports are a pipe dream, it's never going to happen move on.

They can but they won't because they are really only concerned with one thing - the bottom line, and don't want to alienate the anti-maskers who claim their "Rights" are being infringed (the same folks who had no problem with the freedoms they lost after 9/11 with the Patriot Act because it was them there darn A-rabs!).

[Tbrazie]

naw, you are missing the point. Covid, a worldwide pandemic, has killed more people in 12 months than HPV, Flu, Shingles, etc has in 50 years.

And many countries will require it anyway - plus airlines, cruiseships, etc...

Reality is, I'm a fan of the Governor, but this policy - having the vaccine and the passport - is the fastest way to get the world on track

Flu about 60,000 a year since 2010. Not saying that Covid is not a huge pandemic, but keep to the facts as reported by CDC. Also keep in mind that every Covid death is reported. The Flu data is estimated. Still, don't downplay the flu. Just saying.

[lpkruege1]

I can't believe that we would put something so racist into existence. Your poorer communities may not have the funds for the vaccine and now you want them to carry a card for travel, to be employed, to go to the grocery store, or possibly community events? Isn't that the argument people use for against an ID to vote? or Maybe we should put a picture on it, a state stamp, a magnetic code and use it as your ID to vote too. Just saying.

[Bill14564]

I can't believe that we would put something so racist into existence. Your poorer communities may not have the funds for the vaccine and now you want them to carry a card for travel, to be employed, to go to the grocery store, or possibly community events? Isn't that the argument people use for against an ID to vote? or Maybe we should put a picture on it, a state stamp, a magnetic code and use it as your ID to vote too. Just saying.

The vaccine is being paid for and provided by the US Government, there is no cost for the vaccine.

There are groups that a vaccine passport would discriminate against but none of them are based on race.

[golfing eagles]

From the Medical Journals I've read - At this stage it is stated that the vaccine doesn't protect one from getting COVID, it is effective in preventing vaccinated individuals dying from it. How much or how long a person vaccinated or one recovering from Covid is protected long term is still unknown. (I'm a retired MD)

Come on, as a MD you have to know better than that. What is the point of a worldwide vaccination program that does not curb the spread of disease. Are we just protecting individuals one at a time??? What kind of vaccine raises antibodies to a virus but the person can still catch the disease and spread it??? Again, it seems to come down to one article that questioned whether a vaccinated individual could temporarily harbor enough virus in their nasopharynx to spread COVID for a short time. And the authors were simply questioning it and suggested more research is needed.

But the reasons I oppose a "vaccine passport" were listed explicitly in a previous post

[LiverpoolWalrus]

Actually, it was your question to answer. And now we see that you mean "they should be free to choose (well, except when there are exceptions, that is)".

See, the problem you have is that you want to paint DeSantis with this broad brush, claiming he's being anti-conservative somehow. But he doesn't see this as a "freedom to choose for businesses" issue. He sees it as a governmental intrusion issue on the people. DeSantis was elected by the people of Florida, not the private businesses of Florida. He's saying the people have the right to choose, unencumbered by other concerns.

You're free to disagree with his point of view, of course. But it's a little odd that not requiring his state's residents to have to show a vaccination passport is somehow anti-conservative. Well, that is unless you buy into the notion that conservative folks only care about businesses and not individuals.

Side note: your note to the mods to retire this thread because people aren't getting it is due to the way you wrote part of the post:



What proposal? Having a vaccine passport? Yes, we know now you actually meant DeSantis's "proposal" to prohibit requiring a vaccine passport in the state. You've had to clarify what you meant more than once, when simply editing the original post could have sufficed.

You're right, Rick. When I said this in the original post:

"Our governor has said he will prohibit vaccine passports... Conservatives are not fond of government interference in general, but they support this proposal."...

I thought readers would know the proposal is to prohibit vaccine passports, not require them, because the proposal is described in a preceding sentence. But I get it, we all read social media quickly... because there's so darn much of it... that we sometimes don't get the whole picture. I'm guilty of it too. And the fact that the title of the thread is "Vaccine Passports?" might lead some to believe that that is the proposal in question.

Thanks for pointing that out. I have made the revision accordingly in my original post.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

That sounds a lot like, "if you have nothing to hide then you won't mind allowing the police to search your house." No, it's not the same level of intrusion but it is still an intrusion.

My personal opinion is I've seen enough and experienced enough that I value my freedom and my privacy; I want to protect mine and protect others as well. What frightens me is the argument that I should be willing to give up my freedom and privacy because someone else is willing to give up theirs.

It's not like that at all. It's more like: if you're not planning on robbing the bank or passing a bad check, you won't have any problem with showing your ID when you get to the teller.

What happens in YOUR house - is between you and your household.

You can't have it both ways. You can say "this baker can refuse service to a customer because of the baker's religious beliefs" but you can't turn around and then say "this baker can refuse to allow you into the building without a mask or proof of immunity."

Businesses have the right to refuse service to anyone, as long as it doesn't violate the customers' civil rights (except in the case of that baker and his religious beliefs, apparently). But if you come knocking at my door, and I tell you that you can't come in unless you show me your ID, you have the right to refuse to show it. And I have the right to refuse to allow you in.

Easy peasy.

[LiverpoolWalrus]

The concept you are trying to spin is truly absurd.

Hi Swoop, and thanks for weighing in with your unique perspective!

I am not spinning any concept at all. Where have I expressed my opinion on the pros and cons of banning or allowing a vaccine passport? In fact in a follow up to my original post I emphasized that the point of the thread is not the pros and cons of a vaccine passport. It's about conservative/liberal values, overlap of those values, and the need to work together.

But I forgive your insulting comment that my writing is absurd. I realize you misunderstood. Bless your heart.

[Swoop]

Hi Swoop, and thanks for weighing in with your unique perspective!

I am not spinning any concept at all. Where have I expressed my opinion on the pros and cons of banning or allowing a vaccine passport? In fact in a follow up to my original post I emphasized that the point of the thread is not the pros and cons of a vaccine passport. It's about conservative/liberal values, overlap of those values, and the need to work together.

But I forgive your insulting comment that my writing is absurd. I realize you misunderstood. Bless your heart.
Somehow you are trying to represent the governor’s position against a vaccine passport as more government interference as opposed to less. That is the spin I am referring to. I did not comment on the pros or cons of a vaccine passport, just on your assertion that the governor’s stance is somehow more government regulation...

[sloanst]

Let each business make their own requirements. If you enter a business that requires a immunization passport and you don't care for that, then you can go elsewhere. Vice Versa as well. Each business and individual can make their own decision and suffer the consequences.

[Swoop]

Let each business make their own requirements. If you enter a business that requires a immunization passport and you don't care for that, then you can go elsewhere. Vice Versa as well. Each business and individual can make their own decision and suffer the consequences.
You do that and you’ve started down a slippery slope. You are are referring to private businesses that are open to the general public, not private clubs that control who their members are and what they can do.
So what would be the justification for discriminating against those without a passport? Safety of others or to punish those who choose not to get the vaccine? Because either way, you are opening up Pandora’s Box...

[Chi-Town]

If there is a Disney vaccine passport that allows you to walk around outside without a mask I'm all in. Can't imagine wearing a mask in 90 degree weather.

[Happinow]

Naomi Wolf - Why vaccine passports equal slavery forever. (https://www.facebook.com/Naomirwolf/videos/960699208032434/)

[coffeebean]

You need to stop posting this. It is absolutely untrue. There has never been a vaccine for either SARS or MERS. There were attempts to create a vaccine for them, but they were unsuccessful. It is true that both SARS and MERS were Coronaviruses, but it is also true that without a vaccine SARS lasted less than 2 years and the MERS outbreak lasted less than 3 years...

It looks to me that mRNA vaccines have been in development at least since 1990. This is an excerpt from the linked article below. What do you think?........

The first report of the successful use of in vitro transcribed (IVT) mRNA in animals was published in 1990, when reporter gene mRNAs were injected into mice and protein production was detected5.

mRNA vaccines — a new era in vaccinology | Nature Reviews Drug Discovery (https://www.nature.com/articles/nrd.2017.243)

[Tmarkwald]

I can't believe that we would put something so racist into existence. Your poorer communities may not have the funds for the vaccine

Bull - the vaccine is totally free. No excuses.

[coffeebean]

In this case I totally support what the Governor says. Every time the government does something like this we give up some of our freedoms. It allows the government to track out movements and infringes on doctor patient confidentiality. What’s next, a flu passport, a polio passport, a measles passport for kids to go to school etc. Enough is enough.

I do not agree with you or our governor. Public Health is at the helm of these vaccine passports for a disease that has caused a 100 year global pandemic. Enough is enough with this talk about showing proof of vaccination is infringement on our freedoms. Hogwash!

All my opinion, of course.

[coffeebean]

For those of you who feel no one should be allowed to travel without the vaccine... I got the first shot. Had an allergic reaction (immediate rash on face and arms.). I have had an anaphylactic response to a drug in the past. Three doctors and a nurse recommended that I do not get the second shot because “it is not worth the risk!” So, I didn’t. So, should I not be allowed to do something I love? PS: My cheeks and chin have a permanent rosy color to them since that shot on January 4. It’s like they have been permanently burned.

Just wondering if Epinephrine was administered to you. Sorry you are suffering with this adverse reaction.

[Tmarkwald]

Flu about 60,000 a year since 2010. Not saying that Covid is not a huge pandemic, but keep to the facts as reported by CDC. Also keep in mind that every Covid death is reported. The Flu data is estimated. Still, don't downplay the flu. Just saying.

CDC says about half that - but you're right, it's an estimate and I believe that some flu is being reported as Covid as well..

Past Seasons Estimated Influenza Disease Burden | CDC (https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/past-seasons.html)

[coffeebean]

So, they are required to ask you if you've had an anaphylactic response in the past.. If you have, then you get the J&J vaccine. Only the Moderna and Pfizer give that response.

So, you didn't mention that to them when they asked? It is right on the paper they gave you with your card as well..

Very true.....I was asked if I have allergies to any medication or vaccines before I was given the Moderna vaccine.

[coffeebean]

I’m against having to carry a proof vaccination. Next thing you know their will be other restrictions on where we allow to go or do base on government decision not our own.

I have an inkling that you are also against vaccination for Covid-19. Am I right?

[coffeebean]

I am much more afraid of the eagerness of citizens all over the world to blindly and unquestionably bow to government bureaucrats than I am of any virus.

Also consider this; if you know anything about biology you’ll know that viruses constantly mutate and adapt to threats ie. Vaccines. And COVID-19 will be no different. So you better get ready for re-vaccinations about every flu season from now on.

This is nothing more than a garden-variety flu virus which many healthcare experts confirm. It has been used as a proxy for government to control every aspect of human life and justify their own parasitic existence. People wake up please.
I don't buy in to conspiracy theories. Which quack health care experts are you referring to? Is Scott Altas one of those "experts"?