Defense for anti-vaxxers hindering herd immunity?

[coffeebean]

Way to go! You are a good "KISS"er!!!!!!!!!!

I won't tell my husband you said that. LOL.

[Love2Swim]

I won’t sugar coat my stance. This is America and this medical bullying needs to stop. Let’s all make a list of medical necessessities WE think should be implemented and then work to have them enforced, right?

If you want the vaccine, get it. Leave those alone who have decided against it.

I have a feeling if we could all see the actual, individual cases of each person who has died from Covid only and not those who were at death’s door you would be stunned by the actual numbers.

Its not "medical bullying" when it is in the interests of public health. This has been discussed ad nauseam. The health of the country as a whole is more important than the wishes of individuals. I'm not going to sugar coat it. This incessant whining from individuals who won't wear masks and refuse to get vaccinated is really getting old. Look at the people all over the world who would give anything to be able to receive the vaccine. India comes to mind right now where hospitals have run out of beds and oxygen. And interestingly, according to polls, the anti vaccine people tend to be overwhelmingly a member of one political party. Wouldn't it figure.

[coffeebean]

I so want to trust the government too. But it's not easy. I worked for the federal government for 31 years and even I don't trust parts of it, considering our history of egregious "adventures." This makes getting an experimental, unapproved vaccine even more questionable, in my opinion. Maybe I'm just paranoid, but I don't think so (I wouldn't have been able to maintain my federal job if I were, for one thing):

Let’s not forget* the Swine flu vaccine debacle...or...
-The Tuskeegee experiments
-MK Ultra
-Dosing military recruits with LSD without knowledge or consent
-Experimental nuclear explosions in Nevada leading to thousands of cases of thyroid cancer and deaths
-Allowing thousands of people to die of AIDS before it was taken halfway seriously
-Selling bombs to Iran and drugs to American citizens to fund the Nicaraguan contras
-Dishonesty about why we invaded Iraq
-Other experiments on prisoners, the military, children (!), the mentally ill, and pregnant women

Hmmm. I was just reading about a current study investigating how and why people are overly trustful and willing to follow without question the orders of the "authorities." May or not be relevant here. Just sayin.'

*Sources available on request, or you can easily find
them yourself
I read about the Swine Flu vaccine debacle. Seems no one died; just that it was not necessary for the mass inoculation and was money wasted. No?

Agree, government hasn't always been on the "up and up' but still, to me, no reason not to trust our government. Our government is much more trustworthy than many other governments in the world. And that, you can take to the bank.

[coffeebean]

If you don’t believe it’s still a trial consider this:
How long will the vaccine protect you for - unknown
Will you require a booster shot - unknown
Will it protect you against variants - unknown
Will there be any long term side effects - unknown
That sounds like a trial to me...

Yes, there are unknowns. If you prefer to call this the trial period, so be it. I'll go with that. But, the vaccine having emergency authorization is good enough for me. I'm aware people are waiting for full FDA approval to feel safer to take the vaccine.

There are also unknowns about Covid and what damage the disease will offer in the years to come. We already know that Covid causes "long hauler" side effects and that is even to people who did not have symptoms of the disease when they were infectious. I'd rather risk the "unknown" from a vaccine than the devastating "knowns" from having Covid. But....that is just me. I don't expect everyone to rationalize as I do. The irony of these "long haul" side effects is that people have had relief from those long haul side effects after receiving the Covid vaccines. So, there is that.

Can Vaccination Improve Symptoms for People with Long COVID? (https://www.healthline.com/health-news/can-a-covid-19-vaccine-improve-symptoms-for-people-with-long-covid)

[coffeebean]

See, people who try to think things through, such as yourself, I respect your hesitation. I don't agree with it. But I absolutely respect it. Because we get differing information regularly from the CDC, because this IS a new thing, because the vaccine IS a new vaccine, because we know, that there's a lot we still DON'T know...you are hesitant. And I respect that.

I would ask you though, to consider the philosophical side of the equation, and put science vs. evidence aside for a minute. I'll talk about me. Feel free to fill it in with yourself, as applicable.

I'll be 60 next week. I have no children. I was a Girl Scout. I was taught that it is our duty as human beings to at least TRY to leave this world in a better place than we found it. Even if we fail, it's up to us to try.

My generation has done a bang-up job in helping and hindering the human race. We've thoroughly scorched it, and we've run ourselves ragged to heal it. Right now, we are faced with a quandry.

We can take what we _believe_ to be a very minimal risk, in order to eradicate a virus that has already killed around 3 million people worldwide in just one year, sent tens of millions to hospitals, put hundreds of millions out of work, and affected several billion families in one way or another. All in a single year. We can take a leap of faith that a vaccine will drastically reduce, if not completely eliminate, this particular threat against the next generations.

Or, we can take what we _believe_ to also be a somewhat minimal risk, and take a leap of faith that we won't get sick, and the virus won't mutate as a result of our lack of immunity, and that future generations won't be affected anyway.

I have no personal dog in the fight of future generations. Its not, as they say, my problem. But as a human being whose generation has created this and other traumas on this planet, I feel it my responsibility to choose the risk that is most likely to help the majority, rather than the risk that is most likely to help only myself.

Both are small risks. Both of these risks have unknown outcomes. The difference is that one might save millions in the future, and the other one might only save me.
All I can say is "WOW". OBB, you hit this one out of the park. Thank you so much for these eloquent words. You make me feel better about myself for taking the plunge and doing my part. You are my hero!

[Tmarkwald]

There is zero chance that I’d take any of the vaccines if I was pregnant.

Even though it has been documented that the mother passes the immunity to the child?

[Eg_cruz]

Anti-vaxxers only care about themselves. Its me, me, me. All your points are well taken.
What a dumb statement.......if I don’t want a foreign substance shot into my body because there not enough data to back it up....how is that selfish? What is selfish is people trying to push, demand, and shame people into doing something they feel is not healthy for them.
People get sick from the shot because you are putting a mRNA (foreign substance) into your body, your body rejects it and tries to fight it. now if that’s okay with you go get your shot and be happy.......but if it is not okay with you YOU HAVE A RIGHT TO SAY NO THANK YOU.
It has nothing with being selfish it has to do with doing what you feel is right for you. That beefing NO I am not getting the guinea pig shot and yes I practice the guidelines I wear my mask, I social distance and I wash my hand all day everyday. So I am doing my part to stay healthy for me and my family.
So stop calling people who have made a decision about their rights selfish is wrong and childish

[Eg_cruz]

So If I die after taking the vaccine, or one of children, grandchildren, or great grandchildren, are those that say we're being selfish, indeed selfish? This is still a vaccine that doesn't have FDA approval. It only has Emergency approval. What are the long term affects on children? What are the long term affects on child bearing women? Our immune systems are made to adapt to these viruses. Look at the numbers. Cities locked down the hardest are now experiencing a surge while those that opened up early are going down. The difference? Immune systems allowed to work. So your vaccine, do You now have life time, absolute immunity? So you rolled the dice and came up good. Are you willing to be responsible for those that die? It's a personal choice and should remain so.
Well said

[Tmarkwald]

If you don’t believe it’s still a trial consider this:
How long will the vaccine protect you for - unknown
Will you require a booster shot - unknown
Will it protect you against variants - unknown
Will there be any long term side effects - unknown
That sounds like a trial to me...

So, when you contract Covid and are hospitalized, you may have a different opinion.

There are millions in India right now who would love for the opportunity to get vaccinated so they won't die.

Not getting the vaccine is being extremely selfish.

[Eg_cruz]

Even though it has been documented that the mother passes the immunity to the child?
Even more of a reason. Because now the mom will pass a foreign mRNA ( messenger-ribonucleis acid) to her child .....no thank you

[coffeebean]

What a dumb statement.......if I don’t want a foreign substance shot into my body because there not enough data to back it up....how is that selfish? What is selfish is people trying to push, demand, and shame people into doing something they feel is not healthy for them.
People get sick from the shot because you are putting a mRNA (foreign substance) into your body, your body rejects it and tries to fight it. now if that’s okay with you go get your shot and be happy.......but if it is not okay with you YOU HAVE A RIGHT TO SAY NO THANK YOU.
It has nothing with being selfish it has to do with doing what you feel is right for you. That beefing NO I am not getting the guinea pig shot and yes I practice the guidelines I wear my mask, I social distance and I wash my hand all day everyday. So I am doing my part to stay healthy for me and my family.
So stop calling people who have made a decision about their rights selfish is wrong and childish
Medications are foreign substances too. Are you medication free? Please don't answer that, just think about it. RNA is part of every cell in our bodies so it is not foreign to our bodies. Personally, I have read up so much on the mRNA vaccines (Moderna and Pfizer) before I was vaccinated so I had an idea of what the technology was. I am thrilled that this technology exists and felt very safe receiving my vaccination.

This is information from the CDC (hope you trust the information from them) to get a better understanding of what this "foreign substance" actually is all about........

Understanding mRNA COVID-19 Vaccines | CDC (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different-vaccines/mRNA.html?s_cid=10506:covid-19%20vaccine%20mrna:sem.ga:p:RG:GM:gen:PTN:FY21)

[coffeebean]

Even more of a reason. Because now the mom will pass a foreign mRNA ( messenger-ribonucleis acid) to her child .....no thank you

Just wondering why do you believe a substance (RNA) that is part of every cell in our bodies is foreign? The messenger is just that....a messenger that is eliminated from the body once it gives instructions for our immune systems to launch a defense if it comes in contact with the Covid virus. This is the "beauty" if you will, of these mRNA vaccines. Why do you keep perpetuating the idea that RNA is foreign? I'd really like to know. Thanks.

[graciegirl]

Please explain how not getting the shot is self serving. You seem to want to became a nanny state.....no thank you
So you go sit down and shut up

Because Covid-19 does kill people. I don't know what a "Nanny State" means but it does sound like your resistance to being vaccinated has something to do with resisting government. I don't like big government or Federal and State government wasting money and being involved in secular decisions either.

I do know that we have willingly stuck out our arms before to put things like Polio and Smallpox in the past. This is the same thing. We save our lives and in so doing we protect others too. I was relieved to take the shot from Moderna. I was extremely happy to be protected against this disease that could have killed me and my precious husband and our daughter who is vulnerable because of congenital cardio-vascular issues. I can't imagine why people are believing false narratives about vaccination against Covid-19.

[Lindsyburnsy]

When I read these posts, it’s good to read that there are so many people in TV who listen to science.
Covid is a new flu that is more virulent and deadly (570,000 dead) than other flus. We will probably hv to add COVID flu shots to regular flu shots every year. I’ll wear a mask indoors as long as needed.

We will continue as we are for a long time, masks, distancing and who knows what else.

[Tmarkwald]

Even more of a reason. Because now the mom will pass a foreign mRNA ( messenger-ribonucleis acid) to her child .....no thank you

You do realize, of course that is absolutely impossible....

Messenger RNA has been studied and applied for decades - discovered I think 60 years ago. The ONLY problem that science and medical had? It degraded too fast to be used. That was the only issue.

[Tmarkwald]

Because Covid-19 does kill people. I don't know what a "Nanny State" means but it does sound like your resistance to being vaccinated has something to do with resisting government. I don't like big government or Federal and State government wasting money and being involved in secular decisions either.

I do know that we have willingly stuck out our arms before to put things like Polio and Smallpox in the past. This is the same thing. We save our lives and in so doing we protect others too. I was relieved to take the shot from Moderna. I was extremely happy to be protected against this disease that could have killed me and my precious husband and our daughter who is vulnerable because of congenital cardio-vascular issues. I can't imagine why people are believing false narratives about vaccination against Covid-19.

And yet there are people who simply don't care and selfishly refuse to get the vaccine, thereby increasing the infection number and keeping the virus alive and active by providing hosts.

The only good thing? Survival of the fittest - maybe this will cull people who have a predisposition to find a conspiracy under every rock from the ranks of humanity.

Good riddance...

[Swoop]

So, when you contract Covid and are hospitalized, you may have a different opinion.

There are millions in India right now who would love for the opportunity to get vaccinated so they won't die.

Not getting the vaccine is being extremely selfish.
As I have posted before, based on the statistics provided by the CDC, the chances of me being hospitalized with Covid are less than 4/100’s of 1%...
Those are odds I’m comfortable with...

[Tmarkwald]

As I have posted before, based on the statistics provided by the CDC, the chances of me being hospitalized with Covid are less than 4/100’s of 1%...
Those are odds I’m comfortable with...

And, you can get it, and give it, to someone with a compromised immune system and kill them.

Glad you can live with that.

I can't live with the thought that my own selfishness would result in someone else's death...

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

When I read these posts, it’s good to read that there are so many people in TV who listen to science.
Covid is a new flu that is more virulent and deadly (570,000 dead) than other flus. We will probably hv to add COVID flu shots to regular flu shots every year. I’ll wear a mask indoors as long as needed.

COVID-19 is not a flu of any kind. "Flu" is short for "influenza virus." "COVID-19" is short for "Corona VIrus Disease, 2019 version."

Influenza virus is not coronavirus. Two different virii. Sort of like the difference between water paint and oil paint. They're both paint but they are treated very differently.

[Tmarkwald]

Covid is a new flu that is more virulent and deadly (570,000 dead) than other flus.

Actually, it is related to the common cold, not a flu at all.

Coronaviruses are a group of related RNA viruses that cause diseases in mammals and birds.

In humans and birds, they cause respiratory tract infections that can range from mild to lethal.

Mild illnesses in humans include some cases of the common cold (which is also caused by other viruses, predominantly rhinoviruses), while more lethal varieties can cause SARS, MERS, and COVID-19.

[LiverpoolWalrus]

The other issue was partially resolved a week after the inauguration, the WHO and CDC both required changes in the testing because previously the false positives were as high as 60%. The change done January 2021 reduced that to far less than 20%, and good for thrm, they acknowledged the error, however the media still had not changed the reports.

The favorite TOTV response: "Source please"

I would love to believe this as I have suspected all along that the number of false positives was quite high. If it were true though, we would expect the positivity rate to come down considerably. According to Home | Florida Department of Health COVID-19 Outbreak (https://floridahealthcovid19.gov/), it has not. It is pretty stable and still hovering around 6-7%, where it's been since last fall.

If the charges are true that DeSantis is cooking the numbers, this would have been a perfect opportunity for him to lower the rate of positivity and instead the percent is staying basically flat.

[LiverpoolWalrus]

The irony of these "long haul" side effects is that people have had relief from those long haul side effects after receiving the Covid vaccines. So, there is that.

Can Vaccination Improve Symptoms for People with Long COVID? (https://www.healthline.com/health-news/can-a-covid-19-vaccine-improve-symptoms-for-people-with-long-covid)

In my opinion, this is a classic manifestation of the mind/body connection What is the Mind-Body Connection? - Dr. Lakshmi Menezes (https://www.floridamedicalclinic.com/blog/what-is-the-mind-body-connection/)

[Swoop]

I laugh at the people who were fighting and clawing to get ahead of each other to get the shot, so they could protect themselves, suddenly acting like getting it was a selfless act of heroism...

[coffeebean]

You do realize, of course that is absolutely impossible....

Messenger RNA has been studied and applied for decades - discovered I think 60 years ago. The ONLY problem that science and medical had? It degraded too fast to be used. That was the only issue.

The issue was solved with liposome encapsulated mRNA. This abstract explains it. The abstract is a lot to read (as with all scientific abstracts) so skip to the section entitled, "mRNA Based Vaccines" for the explanation.

[coffeebean]

As I have posted before, based on the statistics provided by the CDC, the chances of me being hospitalized with Covid are less than 4/100’s of 1%...
Those are odds I’m comfortable with...
I wish you good luck with that. There always is the possibility that you can become an asymptomatic carrier of the virus (like Typhoid Mary was) and you pass it on to loved ones or anyone else who is not protected by the vaccine. Hope you are resting well at night when you think about that.

[Swoop]

I wish you good luck with that. There always is the possibility that you can become an asymptomatic carrier of the virus (like Typhoid Mary was) and you pass it on to loved ones or anyone else who is not protected by the vaccine. Hope you are resting well at night when you think about that.
If I get Covid, don’t have symptoms, and pass it on, it will be to someone who also opted not to get the vaccine. Then I will have antibodies and we will all be one step closer to herd immunity...

[Tmarkwald]

The favorite TOTV response: "Source please"

I would love to believe this as I have suspected all along that the number of false positives was quite high. If it were true though, we would expect the positivity rate to come down considerably. According to Home | Florida Department of Health COVID-19 Outbreak (https://floridahealthcovid19.gov/), it has not. It is pretty stable and still hovering around 6-7%, where it's been since last fall.

If the charges are true that DeSantis is cooking the numbers, this would have been a perfect opportunity for him to lower the rate of positivity and instead the percent is staying basically flat.

If I get Covid, don’t have symptoms, and pass it on, it will be to someone who also opted not to get the vaccine. Then I will have antibodies and we will all be one step closer to herd immunity...

So, that's ok, since you survived the dice roll of life - to give someone else a chance for snake eyes?

Sounds like forced Russian Roulette with someone else's life...

[Tmarkwald]

I wish you good luck with that. There always is the possibility that you can become an asymptomatic carrier of the virus (like Typhoid Mary was) and you pass it on to loved ones or anyone else who is not protected by the vaccine. Hope you are resting well at night when you think about that.

yeah, frustrating isn't it?

[Swoop]

It is really funny that the same people who spent hours dialing multiple sites to get the vaccine as quickly as possible so they could protect their own asses are now trying to spin it as a humanitarian act on their part...

[Tmarkwald]

It is really funny that the same people who spent hours dialing multiple sites to get the vaccine as quickly as possible so they could protect their own asses are now trying to spin it as a humanitarian act on their part...

If you stay home, don't go out or see anyone to infect them, fine.

Yeah, we got vaccinated.

As you said 'to save our asses' and to slow the spread to morons who refuse the vaccine.

As far as a humanitarian act, that too. Just like going into military service to protect the people who hate the military.

You can't fix stupid.

[Swoop]

If you stay home, don't go out or see anyone to infect them, fine.

Yeah, we got vaccinated.

As you said 'to save our asses' and to slow the spread to morons who refuse the vaccine.

As far as a humanitarian act, that too. Just like going into military service to protect the people who hate the military.

You can't fix stupid.
Wow! You you made the decision that the vaccine was the right choice for you, and therefore it should be the right choice for everyone...
You chose to “protect” yourself and now suddenly it was all about the greater good...
I have no intention of staying home. I haven’t since the start of the Covid outbreak. If I am not vaccinated, I can only spread it to someone else who isn’t vaccinated. I know my odds. You don’t know how long your vaccine will last, or it will require booster shots, or if it will protect you against variants, or if you will have long term immunity issues.
You made the decision that was what you thought was best for you, now you’re trying to spin it into a selfless act of heroism. No one’s buying it, except the others with your same warped train of thought...

[SacDQ]

It’s an individual choice if their wrong in their decision they pay the price.

[Tmarkwald]

It’s an individual choice if their wrong in their decision they pay the price.

Yeah, my opinion is just mine. I won't associate with selfish people. But I truly feel sorry when a family loses a loved one because they simply won't help themselves or others.

Polio paralyzed the nation in the early parts of the 20th century, yet it killed less than 5% of the Covid-19 deaths.

The deadly polio epidemic and why it matters for coronavirus (https://news.yahoo.com/deadly-polio-epidemic-why-matters-122730886.html)

So, I have a difficult time understanding how our society has veered so far ..

Maybe the pandemic is what we need so that people take this stuff seriously. Maybe when your wife/husband/child/parent etc dies from Covid people will finally wise up.

I just have a hard time imagining someone wandering around NYC in the middle of the Polio epidemic yelling ' I refuse to be protected ' ..... when there is a preventative vaccine available.

I am an American. I fought for my country; I love my country.

But Americans are stupid, sad to say.

While the rest of the world dies in the tens of thousands, begging for a dose of vaccine, there are people who have the opportunity to be protected and refuse to do so, thinking they are special.

Unbelievable

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

It’s an individual choice if their wrong in their decision they pay the price.

This is only half-true.

If I'm wrong to vaccinate, *I* will pay the price. If someone is wrong about NOT vaccinating, everyone will pay the price.

[Byte1]

I get both sides of the argument. I was reluctant to get the shots but signed my spouse up and was given the opportunity for myself so I said, what the heck. I figured that once I got the shots, I could quit wearing the mask. Not that I wore it that much anyway, ha,ha. But, we have seen how that goes. The CDC does not have enough confidence in the vaccine to endorse the mask removal.
On the other hand, those that do not wish to get the shots have my understanding also. Why should they, if they have to continue to wear masks and social distance, etc? I do not subscribe to the idea that those that decline getting vaccinated are being selfish. That is just someone's attempt to shame someone else into getting the shots. The other poster is right, we are getting vaccinated to protect ourselves (and maybe family). The ones that do not get the shots are not being selfish. If anyone is in harms way, it will be the ones that don't get vaccinated. So, it will just be others that do not wish to get the shot. So, why bother attempting to shame them into changing their minds? Who knows, they may be right to worry about the vaccine. Shoot, I don't get the flu shot and haven't had it(flu shot) for at least 50 years, and never had the flu. Should I feel selfish because I do not get the flu shot? After all, flu shots are only 30-60% effective, depending on the year. Will I get a booster shot? Not if things stay the way they are now.
Now, do you see why others might be reluctant to get the vaccination, considering that NOTHING has changed? This is not a defense for the "anti-vaxxers" but just an empathetic explanation of how one might reason.
Many of you are not convincing at all. You attempt to threaten and shame those that don't agree with you. Telling someone that you or they are doing it for others is just plain B.S. and you know it. You are doing it for yourselves so just admit it. Or not, but you aren't fooling anyone. Be honest. For those not getting the shots, I understand your reasoning and I do not fault you for it. Personally, I am more pro vaccination for this particular virus, but if I was going to do it again I am not so sure. Nothing has changed. I still associate with friends without masks and I do not wear a mask around them. I ONLY wear a mask when shopping and there is a sign posted. Even then, I uncover my nose so I can breath better. I figured that if I am going to take the chance of getting the shots, then I should also put my faith in the ability of it to protect me from the evil Chinese virus.
If you are attempting to convince folks to get the vaccination, some of you are doing the opposite.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

I laugh at the people who were fighting and clawing to get ahead of each other to get the shot, so they could protect themselves, suddenly acting like getting it was a selfless act of heroism...

It must be nice up there on your high horse. Just watch that you don't get a nosebleed.

Meanwhile back in reality...

I wasn't in a rush to get the vaccine. In fact I was right there with you in the nosebleed section griping about people fighting and clawing to "get there first." I thought it was poor planning on the state's part to not require proof of Florida residency from the first moment of the first day of available vaccines, and have no problem attributing SOME of the blame for the initial roll-out on non-Floridians coming here to get the vaccine while so many Floridians weren't able to get an appointment.

However - I waited my turn. I wasn't eligible for months because I'm not 60, I'm not a medical worker, I'm not an at-risk patient. When they finally said 50+ was eligible I put my name on the waiting list, and was happy to get the vaccine whenever they could fit me in. Even if I had to wait another few weeks. As it was, I only had to wait 3 days for the appointment, which was set for the week after that.

There are MILLIONS of people who are in the same boat I'm in.

So keep laughing.

Humanity will survive, or not, despite your laughter.

[Swoop]

Yeah, my opinion is just mine. I won't associate with selfish people. But I truly feel sorry when a family loses a loved one because they simply won't help themselves or others.

Polio paralyzed the nation in the early parts of the 20th century, yet it killed less than 5% of the Covid-19 deaths.

The deadly polio epidemic and why it matters for coronavirus (https://news.yahoo.com/deadly-polio-epidemic-why-matters-122730886.html)

So, I have a difficult time understanding how our society has veered so far ..

Maybe the pandemic is what we need so that people take this stuff seriously. Maybe when your wife/husband/child/parent etc dies from Covid people will finally wise up.

I just have a hard time imagining someone wandering around NYC in the middle of the Polio epidemic yelling ' I refuse to be protected ' ..... when there is a preventative vaccine available.

I am an American. I fought for my country; I love my country.

But Americans are stupid, sad to say.

While the rest of the world dies in the tens of thousands, begging for a dose of vaccine, there are people who have the opportunity to be protected and refuse to do so, thinking they are special.

Unbelievable
Interesting that you chose the
Polio vaccine as an example. Polio effected everyone equally regardless of age or health. The Corona virus mainly impacts overweight people with preexisting health conditions. AIDS killed 700,000 Americans. If they had introduced an AIDS vaccine, would you have taken it?

[coffeebean]

If I get Covid, don’t have symptoms, and pass it on, it will be to someone who also opted not to get the vaccine. Then I will have antibodies and we will all be one step closer to herd immunity...

Well, that's one way to look at it. Thank you for doing your part.

[Tmarkwald]

The CDC does not have enough confidence in the vaccine to endorse the mask removal.

That's not true - at the level we are at right now, with less than 50% vaccinated, it has nothing to do with the vaccine and everything to do with herd immunity that the vaccine will help provide.

There are still people who are waiting to get the vaccine, and kids aren't approved yet. That will happen soon.

Personally, I see no reason to wear a mask any longer. Overwhelming evidence says that a fully immunized person in the 95th percentile cannot get nor give the virus to others.

I can reasonably assume I am in the 95th percentile as I have recovered from Covid and been vaccinated, as has my whole family. But I will continue to wear the mask out of a sense of public decency and responsibility.

Kinda interesting that the people who refuse to be vaccinated are the same people who refuse to wear the mask....

[coffeebean]

It is really funny that the same people who spent hours dialing multiple sites to get the vaccine as quickly as possible so they could protect their own asses are now trying to spin it as a humanitarian act on their part...

For me, it is no spin at all. All along, I knew the only way out of this mess we are in is to achieve herd immunity SAFELY. I have no doubt that many others realize this too. I do agree with you, however, that there are those who received the vaccine for one thing and one thing only.......because they don't want to die of Covid. That's OK too.

[Tmarkwald]

there are those who received the vaccine for one thing and one thing only.......because they don't want to die of Covid.

And that pretty much says it all.

[Byte1]

This is only half-true.

If I'm wrong to vaccinate, *I* will pay the price. If someone is wrong about NOT vaccinating, everyone will pay the price.

How does that happen? If you are right and vaccinated, how is "everyone" going to pay? If your vaccination is good then you and everyone else "protected" will be fine. If the UN-vaccinated is wrong, then the only folks in danger are the ones that are being ostracized on here, or wherever. Why do you insist on claiming that everyone is going to perish if some don't get vaccinated? You all keep suggesting that we can't gain herd immunity as long as this thing keeps mutating. Something that I don't completely agree with, but may be true. Who knows? But, the virus will eventually dissipate and folks will be able to breath a little while they wait for the next plague to arrive.
So, the point is that the UN-inoculated can only harm those that are UN-inoculated.

[stanley]

And that pretty much says it all.


I think over 300 replies has said it all..............over........and over........and over......................

[LiverpoolWalrus]

Polio paralyzed the nation in the early parts of the 20th century, yet it killed less than 5% of the Covid-19 deaths.

The deadly polio epidemic and why it matters for coronavirus (https://news.yahoo.com/deadly-polio-epidemic-why-matters-122730886.html)

I just have a hard time imagining someone wandering around NYC in the middle of the Polio epidemic yelling ' I refuse to be protected ' ..... when there is a preventative vaccine available.

Unbelievable

Believable. A lot of people here are making comparisons to the polio vaccine. The big difference is that by the time the polio vaccine was administered to the general public, it was NOT an experimental unapproved vaccine, like the Covid vaccines most certainly are. And there were no lingering concerns about potential deadly long term side effects like ADE which may or may not present with Covid vaccines (discussed here earlier).

From your link: "In 1954, the March of Dimes organized a national field trial of 1.8 million schoolchildren, the largest medical study in history. The data was processed and on April 12, 1955, six years from when Salk began his research, the Salk polio vaccine was declared “safe and effective.”

Refusal or indecision about the Covid vaccine may be a lot of things, but stupid it ain't (a reference to your previous posts citing "stupidity"). Not yet anyway. I have to question whether the people who make those kinds of judgments really know all they need to know before making such criticisms. And some people say that people who make uninformed criticisms are "stupid." I wouldn't say they're stupid, of course, and I'm not saying you are.

[Tmarkwald]

Fabulous article...

This was last year...


For decades, scientists have dreamed about the seemingly endless possibilities of custom-made messenger RNA, or mRNA.

The story of mRNA: From a loose idea to a tool that may help curb Covid (https://www.statnews.com/2020/11/10/the-story-of-mrna-how-a-once-dismissed-idea-became-a-leading-technology-in-the-covid-vaccine-race/)

[coffeebean]

Wow! You you made the decision that the vaccine was the right choice for you, and therefore it should be the right choice for everyone...
You chose to “protect” yourself and now suddenly it was all about the greater good...
I have no intention of staying home. I haven’t since the start of the Covid outbreak. If I am not vaccinated, I can only spread it to someone else who isn’t vaccinated. I know my odds. You don’t know how long your vaccine will last, or it will require booster shots, or if it will protect you against variants, or if you will have long term immunity issues.
You made the decision that was what you thought was best for you, now you’re trying to spin it into a selfless act of heroism. No one’s buying it, except the others with your same warped train of thought...

How in the world do you consider this "warped" train of thought? Herd immunity is nothing new. I learned about it many years ago in science class. Yes, there is that dirty word again......SCIENCE.

Your idea (I will not call it "warped", just misguided) not to be vaccinated and if you are asymptomatic, will pass Covid to someone who also made the choice not to be vaccinated. Do you realize this is exactly how the virus has the opportunity to mutate and create more variants? Do you realize that the millions of people in our country who have been vaccinated may not be protected long term because of all these newly created variants? Booster shots will be necessary simply because of those people who refuse to be vaccinated and stop this virus in its tracks.

The millions of people who received the vaccine have done a wonderful service for our country and that is to achieve a SAFE herd immunity. There is no denying that, even if many did it to "save their own asses" as you put it, the end justifies the means.

Those who have already had Covid, have also contributed to herd immunity. There is no denying that either. It is just that those people chose the UNSAFE way to do it and there will be more to come. Hopefully those people made the right decision for their health and well being and are not one of the unlucky healthy people that die from Covid.

[Byte1]

That's not true - at the level we are at right now, with less than 50% vaccinated, it has nothing to do with the vaccine and everything to do with herd immunity that the vaccine will help provide.

There are still people who are waiting to get the vaccine, and kids aren't approved yet. That will happen soon.

Personally, I see no reason to wear a mask any longer. Overwhelming evidence says that a fully immunized person in the 95th percentile cannot get nor give the virus to others.

I can reasonably assume I am in the 95th percentile as I have recovered from Covid and been vaccinated, as has my whole family. But I will continue to wear the mask out of a sense of public decency and responsibility.

Kinda interesting that the people who refuse to be vaccinated are the same people who refuse to wear the mask....

If your vaccination is as reported, then there is no reason for you to wear a mask. Ask any MD that isn't on the gov. payroll and they will tell you that if you are immune, you can't pass the virus on to someone else. The CDC does not have enough confidence in the vaccine, period.
And maybe those that refuse to wear a mask and not get vaccinated, feel they are safe without it. After all, we went a year without the vaccination. Some folks just use what they believe is common sense. They distance, do not cough on others and wash their hands. Even the CDC has said over and over again that if you maintain your distance, you are unlikely to be infected. They even said that even if you are close to an infected, it takes a few minutes of conversing with them in close proximity to be vulnerable to their infection. You know that drill. Besides, everyone knows that these cheap and homemade masks give little protection, and act more as a placebo.

[Tmarkwald]

How does that happen? If you are right and vaccinated, how is "everyone" going to pay? If your vaccination is good then you and everyone else "protected" will be fine. If the UN-vaccinated is wrong, then the only folks in danger are the ones that are being ostracized on here, or wherever. Why do you insist on claiming that everyone is going to perish if some don't get vaccinated? You all keep suggesting that we can't gain herd immunity as long as this thing keeps mutating. Something that I don't completely agree with, but may be true. Who knows? But, the virus will eventually dissipate and folks will be able to breath a little while they wait for the next plague to arrive.
So, the point is that the UN-inoculated can only harm those that are UN-inoculated.

You are saying the same thing. It's the double-negatives that confuses it a bit.

I think the intent was as you said, but the 'everyone' means everyone who is un-vaccinated is vulnerable.

[Tmarkwald]

Believable. A lot of people here are making comparisons to the polio vaccine. The big difference is that by the time the polio vaccine was administered to the general public, it was NOT an experimental unapproved vaccine, like the Covid vaccines most certainly are. And there were no lingering concerns about potential deadly long term side effects like ADE which may or may not present with Covid vaccines (discussed here earlier).

From your link: "In 1954, the March of Dimes organized a national field trial of 1.8 million schoolchildren, the largest medical study in history. The data was processed and on April 12, 1955, six years from when Salk began his research, the Salk polio vaccine was declared “safe and effective.”

Refusal or indecision about the Covid vaccine may be a lot of things, but stupid it ain't. Not yet anyway. I have to question whether the people who make those kinds of judgments really know all they need to know before making such criticisms. And some people say that people who make uninformed criticisms are "stupid." I wouldn't, and I'm not saying you are.

So, we should wait 6 years, 4 million dead or more, and then use the vaccine.

POLIO was only killing a FEW THOUSAND a year, not a half-MILLION

I'm not taking that chance with my health or my children and family.

The reason the vaccine was fast-tracked was because - it worked. And people were dying.

And, I won't bother commenting on your comment about the 'experimental unapproved; vaccine comment. That's been discussed and proven false ad nauseum on her and other posts. Research it. all the sources are stated earlier..

[LiverpoolWalrus]

Interesting that you chose the
Polio vaccine as an example. Polio effected everyone equally regardless of age or health. The Corona virus mainly impacts overweight people with preexisting health conditions. AIDS killed 700,000 Americans. If they had introduced an AIDS vaccine, would you have taken it?

Excellent point and I'm gonna start using it, if you don't mind. I don't know why I didn't think of it. If an AIDS vaccine were available, it's pretty clear many or most people would refuse it saying "I don't need it." And we would let them slide, even though AIDS is contagious. So why is saying "I don't need the Covid vaccine" (because of what you cite above and the 80-90% chance of having no or mild symptoms) any less valid?

[coffeebean]

yeah, frustrating isn't it?

Love the graphic. I love this quote too.......

"It's hard to win an argument with a smart person but damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person". - Bill Murray

[Gulfcoast]

The whole reasoning behind mask wearing, social distancing and shut downs was to prevent our medical facilities from being overrun. It seems that we have arrived at a place where our medical facilities are not in any danger of being overrun. We know a lot more about the virus now, initial data has been corrected to more accurately reflect infection/hospital/death rates, we have a vaccine and many people have been infected and now have natural immunity to this bug.

We are not going to eradicate this virus off of the planet nor has that ever been a goal or expectation. All of the hoops we have been jumping through this past year were meant to prevent our medical facilities from becoming overwhelmed. We appear to have accomplished the goal. If you are worried about catching Covid, get the shot.

[Tmarkwald]

E If an AIDS vaccine were available, it's pretty clear many or most people would refuse it saying "I don't need it." And we would let them slide, even though AIDS is contagious. So why is saying "I don't need the Covid vaccine" any less valid?


Because AIDS doesn't kill a half million a year and spread through the air.

If you don't engage in inappropriate behavior, you will not get AIDS. (excepting blood transfusions...)

Simple answer.

You are comparing apples to watermelons.

[Tmarkwald]

The whole reasoning behind mask wearing, social distancing and shut downs was to prevent our medical facilities from being overrun. It seems that we have arrived at a place where our medical facilities are not in any danger of being overrun. We know a lot more about the virus now, initial data has been corrected to more accurately reflect infection/hospital/death rates, we have a vaccine and many people have been infected and now have natural immunity to this bug.

We are not going to eradicate this virus off of the planet nor has that ever been a goal or expectation. All of the hoops we have been jumping through this past year were meant to prevent our medical facilities from becoming overwhelmed. We appear to have accomplished the goal. If you are worried about catching Covid, get the shot.

great comment

[golfing eagles]

I think over 300 replies has said it all..............over........and over........and over......................

And probably another 200+

Meanwhile, the CDC announced that fully vaccinated individuals no longer need to wear a mask outdoors when participating in sports, walking, cycling etc. Just a little late to the party (again). Nobody but the most paranoid covidiots have been wearing a mask when walking or cycling or sitting alone in their driveway, much less those that were driving alone in a car with a mask on. Now, let's see how many of them continue to wear a mask. (However DO NOT do as Tucker Carlson suggested last night)

[Bill14564]

Interesting that you chose the
Polio vaccine as an example. Polio effected everyone equally regardless of age or health. The Corona virus mainly impacts overweight people with preexisting health conditions. AIDS killed 700,000 Americans. If they had introduced an AIDS vaccine, would you have taken it?

Any chance at all you have a source for that 700,000 number?

According to Our World in Data (https://ourworldindata.org/hiv-aids), The US saw 511,000 deaths from AIDS between 1990 and 2017. The peak was 45,000 in 1995 and since 2014 the number has been about 7,000 per year. (Note: CDC information says 15,820 people diagnosed with HIV died in 2018 but is careful to say this is the number of deaths from any cause and not necessarily AIDS)

Compare that with a solid 400,000 in ONE YEAR ALONE for Covid. That's an average of 33,333 each month compared to 7,000 per year.

Covid may primarily affect those with preexisting conditions but as the list of preexisting conditions becomes large it approaches "everyone."

[LiverpoolWalrus]

And, I won't bother commenting on your comment about the 'experimental unapproved; vaccine comment. That's been discussed and proven false ad nauseum on her and other posts. Research it. all the sources are stated earlier..

Are you really saying it's untrue the Covid vaccines are unapproved and experimental and this has been "proven" false? Are you sure about that?

[Bill14564]

The whole reasoning behind mask wearing, social distancing and shut downs was to prevent our medical facilities from being overrun. It seems that we have arrived at a place where our medical facilities are not in any danger of being overrun. We know a lot more about the virus now, initial data has been corrected to more accurately reflect infection/hospital/death rates, we have a vaccine and many people have been infected and now have natural immunity to this bug.

We are not going to eradicate this virus off of the planet nor has that ever been a goal or expectation. All of the hoops we have been jumping through this past year were meant to prevent our medical facilities from becoming overwhelmed. We appear to have accomplished the goal. If you are worried about catching Covid, get the shot.

So we determine that a nice steady 800 or so deaths per day will not overwhelm our healthcare system and call that good enough? 300,000 additional deaths per year is a small price to pay to not have to wear a mask in Publix?

[coffeebean]

This is only half-true.

If I'm wrong to vaccinate, *I* will pay the price. If someone is wrong about NOT vaccinating, everyone will pay the price.

I penned a post stating the exact same thing but with a lot more words. I decided to delete said post and then I see this post from you. Thank you for your succinct way of saying what I wanted to say.

[Tmarkwald]

Any chance at all you have a source for that 700,000 number?

According to Our World in Data (https://ourworldindata.org/hiv-aids), The US saw 511,000 deaths from AIDS between 1990 and 2017. The peak was 45,000 in 1995 and since 2014 the number has been about 7,000 per year. (Note: CDC information says 15,820 people diagnosed with HIV died in 2018 but is careful to say this is the number of deaths from any cause and not necessarily AIDS)

Compare that with a solid 400,000 in ONE YEAR ALONE for Covid. That's an average of 33,333 each month compared to 7,000 per year.

Covid may primarily affect those with preexisting conditions but as the list of preexisting conditions becomes large it approaches "everyone."

I'm just trying to figure out how someone can get AIDS by just walking down the street or going to a restaurant.

An AIDS vaccines is appropriate to those that engage in behavior that puts them at risk.

The comparison is kinda amusing. If the only way you could get Covid was by sharing syringes and needles or putting an appendage in an inappropriate location I doubt we'd have a half million deaths...

[Tmarkwald]

So we determine that a nice steady 800 or so deaths per day will not overwhelm our healthcare system and call that good enough? 300,000 additional deaths per year is a small price to pay to not have to wear a mask in Publix?

300,000 is ten times the worse year ever for Polio. So, no, that isn't acceptable.

However, in life there are risks. How you deal with them is a personal matter AS LONG AS YOU DON'T CAUSE SOMEONE ELSE'S LIFE TO BE IN DANGER.

[coffeebean]

That's not true - at the level we are at right now, with less than 50% vaccinated, it has nothing to do with the vaccine and everything to do with herd immunity that the vaccine will help provide.

There are still people who are waiting to get the vaccine, and kids aren't approved yet. That will happen soon.

Personally, I see no reason to wear a mask any longer. Overwhelming evidence says that a fully immunized person in the 95th percentile cannot get nor give the virus to others.

I can reasonably assume I am in the 95th percentile as I have recovered from Covid and been vaccinated, as has my whole family. But I will continue to wear the mask out of a sense of public decency and responsibility.

Kinda interesting that the people who refuse to be vaccinated are the same people who refuse to wear the mask....

I'm not sure I would make that generalization. I've seen some folks say they refuse the vaccine but still continue to mask and social distance. At least those folks are smart enough to do what they can to keep themselves and their loved ones safe. Not being vaccinated certainly isn't going to do it.

[coffeebean]

How does that happen? If you are right and vaccinated, how is "everyone" going to pay? If your vaccination is good then you and everyone else "protected" will be fine. If the UN-vaccinated is wrong, then the only folks in danger are the ones that are being ostracized on here, or wherever. Why do you insist on claiming that everyone is going to perish if some don't get vaccinated? You all keep suggesting that we can't gain herd immunity as long as this thing keeps mutating. Something that I don't completely agree with, but may be true. Who knows? But, the virus will eventually dissipate and folks will be able to breath a little while they wait for the next plague to arrive.
So, the point is that the UN-inoculated can only harm those that are UN-inoculated.
No, I agree with OBB and have always had that mindset. Back in the day when all we had to discuss was masking (pre-vaccines). I, continually tried to relay to people that masking would help us to mitigate the virus and get back to what we once knew as "normal". Seems that didn't work at all because not enough people were on board with that mindset and just wore their masks over their mouths or directly on their chins or not at all. Can't mitigate anything THAT way. One down. One to go........

Now we have the vaccines to get us out of this mess of a pandemic. THIS is our salvation for our country to finally achieve herd immunity. NOT SO FAST. How can we get back to the normal we all know and not reach herd immunity? Quick answer......WE CANNOT. THIS is the reason the anti-vaxxers, the non-vaxxers, the hesitant vaxxers, the religious objector vaxxers and the medical issues non-vaxxers will effect EVERYONE.

I used the same mantra for the masks and I am now for the vaccines. Here I go AGAIN.............

How about filling the sports stadiums with asses in ALL seats? What about going to a full movie theater with a stranger actually sitting next to you? How about sending children to school for in person learning and the parents not being fearful their little one will come home with this deadly virus? How about filling cruise ships and enjoying cruising once again? How about filling churches and synagogues with no need to social distance? How about Broadway theaters opening up again so we can enjoy first class live theater? (I'm there in a heartbeat when that happens. I LOVE live theater). I could go on and on and on and on.

YUP.....same mantra I've been spouting for a year now. Hasn't changed and there are still people that prevent us from the normal lives we once took for granted.

Yup.....those folks who refuse vaccination most certainly effect EVERYONE!

[TNLAKEPANDA]

Some people have no desire to be Test Subjects! Very few people have done any research on these vaccines. The heard is all the people blindly linking up to get the jab. Others are a bit wiser. Just my opinion which I am entitled to... at least for now!

[Malsua]

much less those that were driving alone in a car with a mask on.


I saw a LOT of this. In fact on one of my NJ commutes a couple months back, a guy was alone with a mask on, driving like he'd been pithed.

Of course there's video :) Route 208 driver, driving like he's lacking oxygen - YouTube (https://youtu.be/ln08kuWGGac)

I haven't seen it as much in the last month we've been down here in TV, but I did see it a few times.

[Tmarkwald]

I'm not sure I would make that generalization. I've seen some folks say they refuse the vaccine but still continue to mask and social distance. At least those folks are smart enough to do what they can to keep themselves and their loved ones safe. Not being vaccinated certainly isn't going to do it.

I stand corrected - I should have said that some of most outspoken anti-maskers are anti-vaxxers.

[unialimon]

I will not sugar coat my stance........No defense at all for the anti-vaxxers. They are essentially clueless and heartless to the urgency of stopping this virus in its tracks. Anti-vaxxers will be THE reason our country cannot achieve SAVE herd immunity.

As an aside......I do not include those who can not be vaccinated due to medical issues. That is unfortunate for them that they can not achieve the protection the vaccines offer.

I have no patience for those who claim "religious reasons for not taking the vaccine". Religion should take a back seat to public safety. Sorry if that offends anyone.
Looking thru the depths of the internet on a desktop computer, I found this
"Funny how we were raised to not be peer pressured into taking experimental drugs and now we're being peer pressured into taking experimental drugs."

[Becca9800]

And then there's POTUS, about to announce the CDC's new rules re: the need for masks when outdoors. There he is, fully vaccinated, outdoors, by himself, walking to the podium, wearing a mask. What message does he send? His explanation.... so we could watch him take it off and not put it back on until he got inside.

[coffeebean]

Believable. A lot of people here are making comparisons to the polio vaccine. The big difference is that by the time the polio vaccine was administered to the general public, it was NOT an experimental unapproved vaccine, like the Covid vaccines most certainly are. And there were no lingering concerns about potential deadly long term side effects like ADE which may or may not present with Covid vaccines (discussed here earlier).

From your link: "In 1954, the March of Dimes organized a national field trial of 1.8 million schoolchildren, the largest medical study in history. The data was processed and on April 12, 1955, six years from when Salk began his research, the Salk polio vaccine was declared “safe and effective.”

Refusal or indecision about the Covid vaccine may be a lot of things, but stupid it ain't (a reference to your previous posts citing "stupidity"). Not yet anyway. I have to question whether the people who make those kinds of judgments really know all they need to know before making such criticisms. And some people say that people who make uninformed criticisms are "stupid." I wouldn't say they're stupid, of course, and I'm not saying you are.

According to this article....ADE is not an issue with the Covid vaccines, In fact the mRNA vaccines are actually safer than traditional vaccines regarding ADE .......

Why ADE Hasn't Been a Problem With COVID Vaccines | MedPage Today (https://www.medpagetoday.com/special-reports/exclusives/91648)

[coffeebean]

Fabulous article...

This was last year...


For decades, scientists have dreamed about the seemingly endless possibilities of custom-made messenger RNA, or mRNA.

The story of mRNA: From a loose idea to a tool that may help curb Covid (https://www.statnews.com/2020/11/10/the-story-of-mrna-how-a-once-dismissed-idea-became-a-leading-technology-in-the-covid-vaccine-race/)

I posted this article in another TOTV thread. Agree it is a great article and very inspirational.Thank you for posting it again.

[Gulfcoast]

So we determine that a nice steady 800 or so deaths per day will not overwhelm our healthcare system and call that good enough? 300,000 additional deaths per year is a small price to pay to not have to wear a mask in Publix?

It means that we have more information today about the virus than we did a year ago. A year ago people were told to wear masks, stay at home, social distance, distance learn, etc. At the time, we knew little about the virus, weren't sure how to treat it and had no vaccine available. There was concern that we had to slow the spread to prevent our healthcare system from becoming overwhelmed.

Today, a year later, we know much more about the virus, we know how to treat it and we have a vaccine. There is no longer great concern that the virus will overwhelm our healthcare system. If anything, it appears that the earlier mitigation efforts may have been overly cautious and not completely necessary.

Again, ridding the planet of Covid is not a realistic goal and it has never been the goal. Luckily, there is now a vaccine for those who are concerned about contracting this virus.

[Swoop]

I'm just trying to figure out how someone can get AIDS by just walking down the street or going to a restaurant.

An AIDS vaccines is appropriate to those that engage in behavior that puts them at risk.

The comparison is kinda amusing. If the only way you could get Covid was by sharing syringes and needles or putting an appendage in an inappropriate location I doubt we'd have a half million deaths...
We were well into the AIDS epidemic before they narrowed down the methods of transfer. And if you still believe you can get Covid “walking down the street” then you really are clueless...

[LiverpoolWalrus]

According to this article....ADE is not an issue with the Covid vaccines, In fact the mRNA vaccines are actually safer than traditional vaccines regarding ADE .......

Why ADE Hasn't Been a Problem With COVID Vaccines | MedPage Today (https://www.medpagetoday.com/special-reports/exclusives/91648)

I’m not dismissing this and l thank you for sharing it but, to paraphrase OBB, no matter what side you take, you can always find something (even reliable sources) on the internet to support it.

[coffeebean]

If your vaccination is as reported, then there is no reason for you to wear a mask. Ask any MD that isn't on the gov. payroll and they will tell you that if you are immune, you can't pass the virus on to someone else. The CDC does not have enough confidence in the vaccine, period.
And maybe those that refuse to wear a mask and not get vaccinated, feel they are safe without it. After all, we went a year without the vaccination. Some folks just use what they believe is common sense. They distance, do not cough on others and wash their hands. Even the CDC has said over and over again that if you maintain your distance, you are unlikely to be infected. They even said that even if you are close to an infected, it takes a few minutes of conversing with them in close proximity to be vulnerable to their infection. You know that drill. Besides, everyone knows that these cheap and homemade masks give little protection, and act more as a placebo.
Everyone actually knows these cheap home made masks do not offer much protection but they are very effective as source control. You have heard that. Right? Enough about masks. Been there. Done that. Got the T-shirt.

The CDC has plenty of confidence in the vaccine, however, they don't have confidence in human nature. They know that if they gave the guidance for vaccinated people to be able to not mask in indoor public spaces, then everyone will not wear a mask. They know that, I know that and I would imagine you are smart enough to realize that too.

So.....to keep our population safe, they have not yet given the guidance for vaccinated people to unmask in indoor spaces. I don't plan on tattooing my forehead to let everyone know I'm vaccinated and I doubt very many people want to do that either.

As an aside......there is "talk" about the CDC giving guidance that masking is not necessary OUTDOORS. That right there, is a sign that the vaccines are doing what they are supposed to do......to get us to a normal way of living. We are on our way, but not there yet.

[coffeebean]

I’m not dismissing this and l thank you for sharing it but, to paraphrase OBB, no matter what side you take, you can always find something (even reliable sources) on the internet to support it.

OK. I'll buy that. But can you find anything regarding ADE that supports ADE is a concern with the mRNA vaccines or any Covid vaccine for that matter?

[coffeebean]

No, I agree with OBB and have always had that mindset. Back in the day when all we had to discuss was masking (pre-vaccines). I, continually tried to relay to people that masking would help us to mitigate the virus and get back to what we once knew as "normal". Seems that didn't work at all because not enough people were on board with that mindset and just wore their masks over their mouths or directly on their chins or not at all. Can't mitigate anything THAT way. One down. One to go........

Now we have the vaccines to get us out of this mess of a pandemic. THIS is our salvation for our country to finally achieve herd immunity. NOT SO FAST. How can we get back to the normal we all know and not reach herd immunity? Quick answer......WE CANNOT. THIS is the reason the anti-vaxxers, the non-vaxxers, the hesitant vaxxers, the religious objector vaxxers and the medical issues non-vaxxers will effect EVERYONE.

I used the same mantra for the masks and I am now for the vaccines. Here I go AGAIN.............

How about filling the sports stadiums with asses in ALL seats? What about going to a full movie theater with a stranger actually sitting next to you? How about sending children to school for in person learning and the parents not being fearful their little one will come home with this deadly virus? How about filling cruise ships and enjoying cruising once again? How about filling churches and synagogues with no need to social distance? How about Broadway theaters opening up again so we can enjoy first class live theater? (I'm there in a heartbeat when that happens. I LOVE live theater). I could go on and on and on and on.

YUP.....same mantra I've been spouting for a year now. Hasn't changed and there are still people that prevent us from the normal lives we once took for granted.

Yup.....those folks who refuse vaccination most certainly effect EVERYONE!

Walrus.....I appreciate your "Thank You" to this post of mine. It means a lot.

[coffeebean]

I get both sides of the argument. I was reluctant to get the shots but signed my spouse up and was given the opportunity for myself so I said, what the heck. I figured that once I got the shots, I could quit wearing the mask. Not that I wore it that much anyway, ha,ha. But, we have seen how that goes. The CDC does not have enough confidence in the vaccine to endorse the mask removal.
On the other hand, those that do not wish to get the shots have my understanding also. Why should they, if they have to continue to wear masks and social distance, etc? I do not subscribe to the idea that those that decline getting vaccinated are being selfish. That is just someone's attempt to shame someone else into getting the shots. The other poster is right, we are getting vaccinated to protect ourselves (and maybe family). The ones that do not get the shots are not being selfish. If anyone is in harms way, it will be the ones that don't get vaccinated. So, it will just be others that do not wish to get the shot. So, why bother attempting to shame them into changing their minds? Who knows, they may be right to worry about the vaccine. Shoot, I don't get the flu shot and haven't had it(flu shot) for at least 50 years, and never had the flu. Should I feel selfish because I do not get the flu shot? After all, flu shots are only 30-60% effective, depending on the year. Will I get a booster shot? Not if things stay the way they are now.
Now, do you see why others might be reluctant to get the vaccination, considering that NOTHING has changed? This is not a defense for the "anti-vaxxers" but just an empathetic explanation of how one might reason.
Many of you are not convincing at all. You attempt to threaten and shame those that don't agree with you. Telling someone that you or they are doing it for others is just plain B.S. and you know it. You are doing it for yourselves so just admit it. Or not, but you aren't fooling anyone. Be honest. For those not getting the shots, I understand your reasoning and I do not fault you for it. Personally, I am more pro vaccination for this particular virus, but if I was going to do it again I am not so sure. Nothing has changed. I still associate with friends without masks and I do not wear a mask around them. I ONLY wear a mask when shopping and there is a sign posted. Even then, I uncover my nose so I can breath better. I figured that if I am going to take the chance of getting the shots, then I should also put my faith in the ability of it to protect me from the evil Chinese virus.
If you are attempting to convince folks to get the vaccination, some of you are doing the opposite.

How so? Am I guilty of this?

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

How does that happen? If you are right and vaccinated, how is "everyone" going to pay? If your vaccination is good then you and everyone else "protected" will be fine. If the UN-vaccinated is wrong, then the only folks in danger are the ones that are being ostracized on here, or wherever. Why do you insist on claiming that everyone is going to perish if some don't get vaccinated? You all keep suggesting that we can't gain herd immunity as long as this thing keeps mutating. Something that I don't completely agree with, but may be true. Who knows? But, the virus will eventually dissipate and folks will be able to breath a little while they wait for the next plague to arrive.
So, the point is that the UN-inoculated can only harm those that are UN-inoculated.

The general idea of anti-vaxxing with regards to the CV19 vaccine, is that we don't need vaccines to attain herd immunity, the vaccine might be unsafe, mutations will happen anyway, there's little risk of mutation, I haven't been sick yet so I don't have to worry about spreading the disease to anyone else, hardly anyone died, and it's all a hoax anyway. That covers just about the full gamut of "why I *should not* be vaccinated.

If that is wrong (the thing you're asking me about):

Then you DO need vaccines to attain herd immunity, the vaccine is not unsafe, the virus will absolutely mutate if we don't attain herd immunity, you might be sick and Typhoid Marying everyone you meet with the new strain/mutation, millions more will die, and it's not a hoax afterall.

That is what happens if the anti-vaxxers are WRONG.

I'd rather be wrong about taking a pro-active stance on vaccinating, than take an anti-vaxx stance on it.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

I saw a LOT of this. In fact on one of my NJ commutes a couple months back, a guy was alone with a mask on, driving like he'd been pithed.

Of course there's video :) Route 208 driver, driving like he's lacking oxygen - YouTube (https://youtu.be/ln08kuWGGac)

I haven't seen it as much in the last month we've been down here in TV, but I did see it a few times.

I still see people wearing masks in their own cars and golf carts. Heck, sometimes I forget to take MY mask off, even though I hate the damned things and would love nothing better than to toss my box of disposables in the trash. It doesn't bother me a bit. It doesn't make me laugh, it doesn't make me feel sorry for anyone, it doesn't stir up any emotion or trigger any response at all other than to acknowledge, "yup, that's a mask on his face alright."

I think anyone who gets triggered in ANY way by someone wearing a mask in their own vehicle needs a visit to the local memory care center, where there are a LOT of more significant issues to comment about. Like someone forgetting their name, or the fact that they're married, or how to communicate when they're hungry.

[coffeebean]

And probably another 200+

Meanwhile, the CDC announced that fully vaccinated individuals no longer need to wear a mask outdoors when participating in sports, walking, cycling etc. Just a little late to the party (again). Nobody but the most paranoid covidiots have been wearing a mask when walking or cycling or sitting alone in their driveway, much less those that were driving alone in a car with a mask on. Now, let's see how many of them continue to wear a mask. (However DO NOT do as Tucker Carlson suggested last night)

I'm with you.....have never ever worn a mask OUTDOORS and always distance from others but I'm a strong proponent of masking INDOORS.

As an aside....What did Carlson have to say. I didn't see it.

[GrumpyOldMan]

I still see people wearing masks in their own cars and golf carts. Heck, sometimes I forget to take MY mask off, even though I hate the damned things and would love nothing better than to toss my box of disposables in the trash. It doesn't bother me a bit. It doesn't make me laugh, it doesn't make me feel sorry for anyone, it doesn't stir up any emotion or trigger any response at all other than to acknowledge, "yup, that's a mask on his face alright."

I think anyone who gets triggered in ANY way by someone wearing a mask in their own vehicle needs a visit to the local memory care center, where there are a LOT of more significant issues to comment about. Like someone forgetting their name, or the fact that they're married, or how to communicate when they're hungry.

I agree, I often forget to take my mask off when I return to my car. It is just a habit. I just returned from Cuenca Ecuador where in 3 weeks I saw maybe one person without a mask. For me returning here and seeing half of the faces in
Publix bare is disconcerting.

I also have had both vaccine shots and in the last 4 weeks have tested negative 3 times, the tests were required for travel, and for a doctor's appointment this Friday.

Personally, I see no reason for anything less than an overabundance of caution, but until vaccination and masks are required people are free to do what they want.

[Love2Swim]

And meanwhile, Tucker Carlson on Fox News, said that if you see children wearing masks, you should call the police and report the parents for child abuse. He also urged viewers to harass strangers for wearing masks. And a private school in Miami is saying that it is now against school policy for teachers and/or students to get vaccinated. Yikes! The world is full of idiots.

[Gulfcoast]

I'm with you.....have never ever worn a mask OUTDOORS and always distance from others but I'm a strong proponent of masking INDOORS.



There have probably been people who have seen you outside without a mask on thinking: "Wow! Look at that reckless lady walking around outside without a mask! She's going to get us all infected!"

And there are probably people who haven't set foot outside since this whole Covid thing began thinking: "Wow! Look at all of those reckless people walking around outside acting like those masks are going to protect them!" These are the folks who still sanitize their mail and delivery orders before bringing them inside.

What is safe to you may not be safe to me or vice versa. That's why it's best to mitigate our own risks and let others do the same for themselves.

[golfing eagles]

I'm with you.....have never ever worn a mask OUTDOORS and always distance from others but I'm a strong proponent of masking INDOORS.

As an aside....What did Carlson have to say. I didn't see it.

I didn't see it because I'm not in love with Fox News ever since they booted O'reilly, but apparently he was encouraging people to "shame" parents who were watching their kids play outdoors with a mask on and with masks on their kids. He suggested calling police or children's services because he viewed it as a form of child abuse----no idea where he was coming from. But to balance it out, I heard a blurb on a liberal talk show this morning that suggested Carlson was trying to pave the way for fascism in America. I don't know which of them is more demented.

[golfing eagles]

There have probably been people who have seen you outside without a mask on thinking: "Wow! Look at that reckless lady walking around outside without a mask! She's going to get us all infected!"

And there are probably people who haven't set foot outside since this whole Covid thing began thinking: "Wow! Look at all of those reckless people walking around outside acting like those masks are going to protect them!" These are the folks who still sanitize their mail and delivery orders before bringing them inside.

What is safe to you may not be safe to me or vice versa. That's why it's best to mitigate our own risks and let others do the same for themselves.

Sorry, but what is safe IS safe. This is a black and white issue, there are no shades of gray and no room for personal opinion on the matter. From the beginning there have been unknowns, but outdoor mask wearing is no longer one of them

[Tmarkwald]

Very few people have done any research on these vaccines.

These 23 companies are working on coronavirus treatments or vaccines — here’s where things stand - MarketWatch (https://www.marketwatch.com/story/these-nine-companies-are-working-on-coronavirus-treatments-or-vaccines-heres-where-things-stand-2020-03-06)

Only 23 companies and thousands of scientists...

[golfing eagles]

These 23 companies are working on coronavirus treatments or vaccines — here’s where things stand - MarketWatch (https://www.marketwatch.com/story/these-nine-companies-are-working-on-coronavirus-treatments-or-vaccines-heres-where-things-stand-2020-03-06)

Only 23 companies and thousands of scientists...

But don't forget the millions of amateur physicians armed with google:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

[Bucco]

I didn't see it because I'm not in love with Fox News ever since they booted O'reilly, but apparently he was encouraging people to "shame" parents who were watching their kids play outdoors with a mask on and with masks on their kids. He suggested calling police or children's services because he viewed it as a form of child abuse----no idea where he was coming from. But to balance it out, I heard a blurb on a liberal talk show this morning that suggested Carlson was trying to pave the way for fascism in America. I don't know which of them is more demented.

In addition to suggesting that you should call Children's Service about children, he suggested that "we" " should ask people wearing masks outside to remove them". He also mentioned "having a child wear a mask is child abuse"

Full, unedited quote....on general mask wearing


"“They’re the aggressors,” Carlson said of people who wear masks during the segment. “It’s our job to brush them back and restore the society we were born in. So the next time you see someone in a mask on the sidewalk or on the bike path, do not hesitate. Ask politely but firmly, ‘Would you please take off your mask? Science shows there is no reason for you to be wearing it. Your mask is making me uncomfortable.’”"

[Bucco]

"Carlson also said “the only people who wear masks outside are zealots and neurotics” and said seeing a vaccinated person wear a mask outdoors was like “watching a grown man expose himself in public”.

“Your response when you see children wearing masks as they play should be no different from your response to seeing someone beat a kid in Walmart,” he said.

[Gulfcoast]

Sorry, but what is safe IS safe. This is a black and white issue, there are no shades of gray and no room for personal opinion on the matter. From the beginning there have been unknowns, but outdoor mask wearing is no longer one of them

Last week on Tuesday it was still not declared safe to be outside w/o a mask on. Apparently the powers that be have decided that TODAY it is safe to no longer wear a mask outside.

I have never worn a mask outside nor have I sanitized my mail. At one point, that was apparently a thing though.

Remember when they closed down the beaches?

We have also been told that homemade cloth masks are going to stop a killer virus from spreading. We've been told lots of stuff.

[golfing eagles]

Last week on Tuesday it was still not declared safe to be outside w/o a mask on. Apparently the powers that be have decided that TODAY it is safe to no longer wear a mask outside.

I have never worn a mask outside nor have I sanitized my mail. At one point, that was apparently a thing though.

Remember when they closed down the beaches?

We have also been told that homemade cloth masks are going to stop a killer virus from spreading. We've been told lots of stuff.

It certainly has been a moving target. What will tomorrow bring?

But I do wonder whether it was always safe to be outside without a mask----probably not in a crowd, but for all normal activity? And did CDC know this early on but had no good exit strategy from their original position?

[golfing eagles]

"Carlson also said “the only people who wear masks outside are zealots and neurotics” and said seeing a vaccinated person wear a mask outdoors was like “watching a grown man expose himself in public”.

“Your response when you see children wearing masks as they play should be no different from your response to seeing someone beat a kid in Walmart,” he said.

In addition to suggesting that you should call Children's Service about children, he suggested that "we" " should ask people wearing masks outside to remove them". He also mentioned "having a child wear a mask is child abuse"

Full, unedited quote....on general mask wearing


"“They’re the aggressors,” Carlson said of people who wear masks during the segment. “It’s our job to brush them back and restore the society we were born in. So the next time you see someone in a mask on the sidewalk or on the bike path, do not hesitate. Ask politely but firmly, ‘Would you please take off your mask? Science shows there is no reason for you to be wearing it. Your mask is making me uncomfortable.’”"

Amazing. Did he suggest bring a gun to emphasize that the mask was making him uncomfortable????
Even though he is basically correct in that outdoor masks are useless, child abuse???, confront the wearer????
I think his producers and writers went off the deep end on this one

[Bucco]

Amazing. Did he suggest bring a gun to emphasize that the mask was making him uncomfortable????
Even though he is basically correct in that outdoor masks are useless, child abuse???, confront the wearer????
I think his producers and writers went off the deep end on this one

It has become the norm the last few years.

If you disagree, be rude, meanspirited, mock personally, to get attention.

Making a point with facts is passé.

His associate, Gutfeld, a few days ago had the need to belittle others when he said,...."You should only wear a mask outside if you plan on robbing an ice cream truck"

Okay to disagree, but these folks make bullying a real art form.

Disagreeing and saying it with class is gone....insult, accuse is in with certain folks.

[Gulfcoast]

It certainly has been a moving target. What will tomorrow bring?

But I do wonder whether it was always safe to be outside without a mask----probably not in a crowd, but for all normal activity? And did CDC know this early on but had no good exit strategy from their original position?

I do not know what the CDC knew or didn't know. I can say that they are going to have some extreme credibility problems after all of this. "Don't mask! No, wait, Wear a mask! No, we mean Double Mask!!" Just make sure that they are homemade masks and not the good ones.

Sanitizing the cart handles, sanitize your mail, sanitize your groceries....but, wait, you don't really need to do that.

"Keep kids home from school" "No, wait, kids learn best at their physical schools. Send the kids to school!"

"Kids can't get the virus....but they have to wear masks and social distance...but they can't get the vaccine until we know it's safe"

Oh, and the beach is safe.

Head spinning lunacy.

[Bucco]

It certainly has been a moving target. What will tomorrow bring?

But I do wonder whether it was always safe to be outside without a mask----probably not in a crowd, but for all normal activity? And did CDC know this early on but had no good exit strategy from their original position?

My personal opinion based on experience is this....the Government will always err on the side of caution.

They are not speaking justto educated and sophisticated people like we think we are, but to a huge nation. We, whomever calls the government whatever name, are not the only folks on this planet, nor in this country.

Most intelligent people are listening, discussing and making reasonable decisions.

Used to be that way from coast to coast....now, all us smart A need to make fun, search for any false narrative we can, and the meaner and more personal the better.

Yet, we come on here and say "others" are irresponsible.

Sorry, maybe it's my age, but this condescending attitude as if the entire world revolved about our village just irks me. Hearing good people get mocked, called names, etc. simply because they are trying to do the right thing irks me.

Sound like the bully in elementary school ?

[Gulfcoast]

I think that people have been trying to say politely all along that it is fine for kids to be playing outside without masks on and that the chances of a kid picking the virus up on playground equipment was slim to none but - BAM! - that conversation would get shut down in a hurry by individuals who were trying to "Save Lives!!!!". It became impossible to have a well reasoned, rational conversation. At some point, people just chose their own corners and did things their own way. Some kids went to the playground and to sleepovers during the shutdowns and some kids stayed at home talking to their friends on social media.

[coffeebean]

I didn't see it because I'm not in love with Fox News ever since they booted O'reilly, but apparently he was encouraging people to "shame" parents who were watching their kids play outdoors with a mask on and with masks on their kids. He suggested calling police or children's services because he viewed it as a form of child abuse----no idea where he was coming from. But to balance it out, I heard a blurb on a liberal talk show this morning that suggested Carlson was trying to pave the way for fascism in America. I don't know which of them is more demented.

I just read in a post just above yours what Tucker Carlson had to say. Seriously???? Holy $h!tskies.

[coffeebean]

Sorry, but what is safe IS safe. This is a black and white issue, there are no shades of gray and no room for personal opinion on the matter. From the beginning there have been unknowns, but outdoor mask wearing is no longer one of them

From the very beginning of this pandemic, the CDC advised us that virus transmission was next to nil in OUTDOOR settings. I ran with that right from the beginning and did not ever mask up as long as I was distanced from anyone, including family. That was sooo easy to do.

I did not attend any rallies, I did not go to the town squares (when they were open) without sitting in our golf cart. I did not gather in any kind of crowd. Soooooo easy to do. Now they say it is safe. I knew that all along and did what I thought was best for me.

Must say, in the past couple of weeks since hubby is now fully vaccinated, we have gone to the town squares and enjoyed sitting in the chairs in the squares and are able to people watch. I'm so glad we can feel safe again doing that. Very thankful for the vaccines.

[Bucco]

I think that people have been trying to say politely all along that it is fine for kids to be playing outside without masks on and that the chances of a kid picking the virus up on playground equipment was slim to none but - BAM! - that conversation would get shut down in a hurry by individuals who were trying to "Save Lives!!!!". It became impossible to have a well reasoned, rational conversation. At some point, people just chose their own corners and did things their own way. Some kids went to the playground and to sleepovers during the shutdowns and some kids stayed at home talking to their friends on social media.

What you describe sounds like a normal day in America.

Now we seem to have agendas yelling and screaming for whatever reason that you are either too liberal (not the political kind) or too conservative (not the political kind).

I am a bit sensitive to this because the rhetoric is getting out of hand....not discussions on here, but the comments with agrndas that sway folks, not because those opinion "swayers" know more than the rest of us "schlubs" but has a need to protect his agenda

Some feel this virus is a joke, a hoax, whatever. Whatever, it strikes fear in millions and that needs to be respected, in my opinion. No need for a very rich reader to mock a parent or anyone. Just very disheartening

[coffeebean]

In addition to suggesting that you should call Children's Service about children, he suggested that "we" " should ask people wearing masks outside to remove them". He also mentioned "having a child wear a mask is child abuse"

Full, unedited quote....on general mask wearing


"“They’re the aggressors,” Carlson said of people who wear masks during the segment. “It’s our job to brush them back and restore the society we were born in. So the next time you see someone in a mask on the sidewalk or on the bike path, do not hesitate. Ask politely but firmly, ‘Would you please take off your mask? Science shows there is no reason for you to be wearing it. Your mask is making me uncomfortable.’”"
Speaking as a registered Republican, Carlson grates on my every nerve saying those things. The man is a dip$h!t!

[coffeebean]

"Carlson also said “the only people who wear masks outside are zealots and neurotics” and said seeing a vaccinated person wear a mask outdoors was like “watching a grown man expose himself in public”.

“Your response when you see children wearing masks as they play should be no different from your response to seeing someone beat a kid in Walmart,” he said.

Oh, please. This just gets worse and worse. No other words for this man. I agree with his POV but, he should NOT be saying those things on network TV. That is just wrong on every level.

[Gulfcoast]

What you describe sounds like a normal day in America.

Now we seem to have agendas yelling and screaming for whatever reason that you are either too liberal (not the political kind) or too conservative (not the political kind).

I am a bit sensitive to this because the rhetoric is getting out of hand....not discussions on here, but the comments with agrndas that sway folks, not because those opinion "swayers" know more than the rest of us "schlubs" but has a need to protect his agenda

Some feel this virus is a joke, a hoax, whatever. Whatever, it strikes fear in millions and that needs to be respected, in my opinion. No need for a very rich reader to mock a parent or anyone. Just very disheartening

I tried debating early on but people really have picked their corners and are doing what they see fit for themselves. Rather than try to sway anyone to my own view, I decided to just do what I thought was right and appropriate in my situation and let others do the same for themselves.

I didn't see the Tucker episode but the news people really seem to love to stir up controversies with their remarks. I'm not really seeing too many Fox viewers calling the cops or CPS on parents who keep masks on their kids outside but who knows what people are going to do.

This whole thing has been crazy. The virus is real it's the reaction to it that has been over the top in my own (sometimes unpopular) opinion.

[LiverpoolWalrus]

Walrus.....I appreciate your "Thank You" to this post of mine. It means a lot.

Nobody wants to resume concertgoing, theater, cruises, ALL activities right here in the Villages, etc. more than I do. And so the dilemma continues. Especially going to concerts. I'm about to go into withdrawals.

As for your earlier question about reports of potential long term adverse reactions to the vaccines, I've read a few over the last few weeks and they all, such as the one that follows, basically say we can't make a determination yet.

I'm also careful not to needlessly scare anyone who's been vaccinated. We've been scared enough over the last 14 months. We don't need people worrying over something just to find out the worry was in vain. That said, there is a good bit of gloom and doom on Youtube about the vaccines, but I don't know how reliable it is.

I came across an article a week or so ago from "A Reliable Source" and I regret I didn't save it. It talked about how the vaccine may cause an immune response that could damage vital organs if one is exposed to Covid post-inoculation. I'm not sure if that's the same as ADE. It would be great if one of the professionals on this board could weigh in on this claim.

The ADE article you posted was encouraging. It's articles like that that make the decision a little easier...that and thoughts of cruises and concerts on the horizon.

A perspective on potential antibody-dependent enhancement of SARS-CoV-2 - PubMed (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32659783/)

[Bucco]

For those of you who are Fox fans, you probably will not like this, but as an avid Fox watcher from the 90’s, and stopped watching because this was surely the future (facts is I was thrilled when the network began),
But Golfingeagles mentioned the producer, and this. May just be the games that started a few years ago on that network,.

This is part of an opinion piece from someone who was a regular on the network. Just a game to divide us, and keep everyone fighting.


The more likely scenario is that, like much of what Carlson says on Fox, this is itself a hoax, a trick played on his own viewers to see how gullible they are, and a ploy to see how outraged he can make the rest of us. Like I said, high-level trolling — just because he can.
Lest you doubt this interpretation, I remind you that Fox’s own lawyers have argued this — that Carlson says things that are intentionally false, and you, the viewer, should be able to tell that from the “general tenor” of the show.

As the U.S. District Judge Mary Kay Vyskocil wrote in an opinion dismissing a lawsuit against Carlson and Fox, “Fox persuasively argues, that given Mr. Carlson’s reputation, any reasonable viewer ‘arrive[s] with an appropriate amount of skepticism’ about the statements he makes.”
It’s a good warning, and one that should perhaps accompany every Carlson broadcast.

Tucker Carlson’s disgusting new low - New York Daily News (https://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/ny-oped-tucker-carlsons-disgusting-new-low-20210427-w47cwgqhv5fyff7c5mbdppky44-story.html)

[LiverpoolWalrus]

How so? Am I guilty of this?

No, you don't shame or call people names. Or make silly baseless claims.

[stanley]

No, you don't shame or call people names. Or make silly baseless claims.

Well in post 301...in a round about way, she did call those that don't agree with her...stupid

[LiverpoolWalrus]

I didn't see it because I'm not in love with Fox News ever since they booted O'reilly, but apparently he was encouraging people to "shame" parents who were watching their kids play outdoors with a mask on and with masks on their kids. He suggested calling police or children's services because he viewed it as a form of child abuse----no idea where he was coming from. But to balance it out, I heard a blurb on a liberal talk show this morning that suggested Carlson was trying to pave the way for fascism in America. I don't know which of them is more demented.

GE, you of all people are smart enough to know cable news is a commercial enterprise and they are giving the people exactly what they want. I'd go so far as to say the commentators don't even believe half of what they're saying. They're just pandering to their respective audiences and telling them what they want to hear.

If there's any blame to assign, unfortunately it goes to the millions of viewers.

[stanley]

GE, you of all people are smart enough to know cable news is a commercial enterprise and they are giving the people exactly what they want. I'd go so far as to say the commentators don't even believe half of what they're saying. They're just pandering to their respective audiences and telling them what they want to hear.

If there's any blame to assign, unfortunately it goes to the millions of viewers.

Hmmmmm....CNN....MSNBC..CBS...ABC..CBS

Just saying

And if "anyone's" wondering...I haven't had anything to do with FOX in a very long time

[coffeebean]

Nobody wants to resume concertgoing, theater, cruises, ALL activities right here in the Villages, etc. more than I do. And so the dilemma continues. Especially going to concerts. I'm about to go into withdrawals.

As for your earlier question about reports of potential long term adverse reactions to the vaccines, I've read a few over the last few weeks and they all, such as the one that follows, basically say we can't make a determination yet.

I'm also careful not to needlessly scare anyone who's been vaccinated. We've been scared enough over the last 14 months. We don't need people worrying over something just to find out the worry was in vain. That said, there is a good bit of gloom and doom on Youtube about the vaccines, but I don't know how reliable it is.

I came across an article a week or so ago from "A Reliable Source" and I regret I didn't save it. It talked about how the vaccine may cause an immune response that could damage vital organs if one is exposed to Covid post-inoculation. I'm not sure if that's the same as ADE. It would be great if one of the professionals on this board could weigh in on this claim.

The ADE article you posted was encouraging. It's articles like that that make the decision a little easier...that and thoughts of cruises and concerts on the horizon.

A perspective on potential antibody-dependent enhancement of SARS-CoV-2 - PubMed (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32659783/)


That sounds exactly like what was happening to many Covid Positive patients early on. Their immune systems launched an "over response" (if that is even a phrase but you get what I mean) to the pathogen and they were having multiple organ failures leading to their deaths. Hopefully, by now, there are treatments to prevent this from occurring but I really don't know that for sure.

As for getting back to our normal lives, hubby and I are looking forward to the day we step foot on a cruise ship again. We really miss cruising.

[coffeebean]

No, you don't shame or call people names. Or make silly baseless claims.

OK....good to know. Thanks.

[coffeebean]

Well in post 301...in a round about way, she did call those that don't agree with her...stupid

Yes, you are correct about that it being a "round about way". I never call out a specific individual with name calling. This is the quote I live by and that is not just on social media forums.........

"It's hard to win an argument with a smart person but damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person". - Bill Murray

Don't you just love this quote? Bill Murray has got it together!!!

[GrumpyOldMan]

There once upon a time used to be actual regulations, basically stating that news programs had to deliver actual news, information. This was one of those "deregulation" things that occurred several years ago, and why heavy right and heavy left political agenda are prevalent on news programs. This is also one of the reasons I no longer watch TV on a regular basis. I got tired of CNN-esque and Fox-ist "news" that was nothing but propaganda.

The problem started long before that. Once upon a time, we the people owned the airwaves (broadcast frequencies) and leased them to networks to use to broadcast their shows and make money selling ads. The lease agreement required a certain amount of broadcast time be of "public service", and for politicians equal time for both (all) parties.

News departments were cost centers that produced as inexpensively as possible the news, so it could be aired as a public service to meet their leasing requirements.

One day someone noticed that people were watching news shows, and sticking around for whatever show came after the news. News departments became profit centers and news became a money maker and not a public service. From there the spiral down into the quagmire we have today evolved. Anything for a click or a view - ANYTHING.

[Byte1]

Interesting that folks accept the wild comments and accusations from the "mainstream media" but nitpick every little comment that may be controversial on "certain" networks. I rarely watch Tucker on FOX so I did not catch what he actually said. That said, I do know that he often gets sarcastic or tongue in cheek in his comments. Since I know he is like that, I presume that he was being like that when he supposedly said stuff about calling the police or social services (whatever) for children made to play outside wearing masks. I also remember folks on here suggesting that one should approach anyone NOT wearing masks in a store or demanding that the Squares be shut down for those that are violating mask protocol. I am not concerned about Tucker's supposed statements, because he has never suggested following politicians into restaurants and disturbing their meals, or other violent actions that some folks have suggested, such as blowing up the White House or violence against the president-- (hollyweird elitists). Even though I did not hear Carlson's comments, knowing his past discussions, I find it easy to disregard what some accuse him of saying as off the cuff commentary. Kind of like disregarding those that accused a certain person of being a spy or traitor and demanding his impeachment. Not "political" just mentioning this as an example of irregular commentary on TV.
There are folks on here that demanded that the gov. get involved in mandatory mask wearing. I have seen comments about punishing those that refuse to wear masks and suggesting that they are dangerous to others. Some have suggested that the police give tickets/fines to those that refuse to wear masks. Is that any different than Tucker supposedly suggesting that folks be charged with child abuse for making their children play outside while wearing masks? Maybe some do not see it that way.
Just saying that what he supposedly said is trivial in my opinion. I doubt anyone would take it seriously.
I do believe that the subject of this thread is regarding the defense of "anti-vaxxers." Any chance of moving back to the subject?

[GrumpyOldMan]

And herein is a big part of the issue. If someone agrees in general with a media outlet's positions, they will overlook offensive or inaccurate remarks on that network. But, if they disagree in. general with the agenda of a media outlet then they have hair fires over every comment no matter what.

So, we end up in two different worlds and every day we are driven further apart by focusing on what "our guys are saying" as right, and what "THEIR guys are saying" as wrong. And we go to greater lengths to prove our positions.

[Gulfcoast]

Good comments Byte1 and I think you are right. I haven't watched the Tucker episode but it would make sense that he was using sarcasm based on other his other shows that I have watched.

As far as putting people on the defensive for not getting the vaccine, I don't think that's right at all. The vaccine is available now and it should be up to the individual whether or not to get it. There are people who have weighed the risks, pros and cons of getting the vaccine and have opted to either get it or not to do so. It's not up to me to second guess their personal health decision either way.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Neologism for 2021: propagainment

or if you prefer...enterganda

You saw it here first!

It is so obvious that's exactly what Tucker Carlson is about. And that Mark Levin guy too. Levin yells as he comments and he just can't pull it off, he's not a good actor - you just know he's not being authentic. It's not just that network, the lefty commentators are guilty of propagainment, too.

Yup. Morning Joe and Tucker Carlson both. Equally cringeworthy in their own way. However, there are people who will believe every word that comes out of their mouths. Because the law doesn't require either of them to tell the truth. About anything. At all.

[Byte1]

Good comments Byte1 and I think you are right. I haven't watched the Tucker episode but it would make sense that he was using sarcasm based on other his other shows that I have watched.

As far as putting people on the defensive for not getting the vaccine, I don't think that's right at all. The vaccine is available now and it should be up to the individual whether or not to get it. There are people who have weighed the risks, pros and cons of getting the vaccine and have opted to either get it or not to do so. It's not up to me to second guess their personal health decision either way.

Totally agree. It was a difficult decision for me to get the vaccination, considering the fact that I haven't had the flu shot in 50 years and never had the flu. I sincerely hope I made the right decision, based on available information and that I will not regret it later. Oh well, I think I still have about 20 years left, so if any repercussions occur after 21 years, I'm satisfied. I support getting vaccinated, but I also understand anyone being afraid to submit themselves to a gov. endorsed foreign substance injected into their bodies. My best advice (two cents worth) is to do diligent research and then weigh the odds of gaining protection for yourself and family, over the chance of deadly side effects. The second, not being proven to be a substantial risk---yet. I made a personal choice weighed heavily upon protecting my spouse. I do not demand others follow suit.

[Byte1]

Yup. Morning Joe and Tucker Carlson both. Equally cringeworthy in their own way. However, there are people who will believe every word that comes out of their mouths. Because the law doesn't require either of them to tell the truth. About anything. At all.

Why should the "law" require what some feel is the truth from Commentators? Kind of nice having the 1st Amendment, even if one does not agree with something someone says. The Gov. does not demand or mandate TV viewership....yet. I always considered commentary to be someone's personal opinion. Either agree with it or don't believe it. It's good to have that freedom to choose what one wishes to believe.

[Malsua]

That sounds exactly like what was happening to many Covid Positive patients early on. Their immune systems launched an "over response" (if that is even a phrase but you get what I mean) to the pathogen and they were having multiple organ failures leading to their deaths. Hopefully, by now, there are treatments to prevent this from occurring but I really don't know that for sure.
.

What you're looking for is cytokine storm or perhaps bradykinin storm. Both are cellular dysregulation where certain things are up-regulated or down-regulated way out of normal. It creates havoc and can damage organs.

In the original Sars and Mers, it was found that treatment with corticosteroids led pretty rapidly to death. Early in this pandemic, treating with corticosteriods was a big no-no. What was subsequently found is that corticosteroids help tremendously in treating covid19 but timing is critical. Once the viral phase of the disease is winding down, and the cytokine storm is ramping up or ground glass opacities are seen in the lungs on an Xray, treatment with methylprednisolone can safely begin.

[coffeebean]

What you're looking for is cytokine storm or perhaps bradykinin storm. Both are cellular dysregulation where certain things are up-regulated or down-regulated way out of normal. It creates havoc and can damage organs.

In the original Sars and Mers, it was found that treatment with corticosteroids led pretty rapidly to death. Early in this pandemic, treating with corticosteriods was a big no-no. What was subsequently found is that corticosteroids help tremendously in treating covid19 but timing is critical. Once the viral phase of the disease is winding down, and the cytokine storm is ramping up or ground glass opacities are seen in the lungs on an Xray, treatment with methylprednisolone can safely begin.
Yes, yes. I have heard of Cytokine Storm. Thank you for that easily understood explanation.

[Byte1]

Looks like a bunch of "anti-vaxxing" going on up in PA right now. News reports of one particular location that has 4,000 doses getting ready to expire because they can't get folks to stop by for a FREE vaccination. More wasted taxpayer money, if folks don't take advantage of the "freebies."
More information: Many(80+) fully vaccinated doctors in India have come down with Covid infection. Another new strain? Suggest closing borders until everyone gets a handle on this. I wonder which vaccine they had. I know that some countries are using the Russian Sputnik(?) vaccine.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Looks like a bunch of "anti-vaxxing" going on up in PA right now. News reports of one particular location that has 4,000 doses getting ready to expire because they can't get folks to stop by for a FREE vaccination. More wasted taxpayer money, if folks don't take advantage of the "freebies."
More information: Many(80+) fully vaccinated doctors in India have come down with Covid infection. Another new strain? Suggest closing borders until everyone gets a handle on this. I wonder which vaccine they had. I know that some countries are using the Russian Sputnik(?) vaccine.

It was a combination of things that created the tragedy that is India right now.
1. They assumed herd immunity because reported cases went down. They did not assume those cases went down because of vaccinations PLUS social distancing PLUS mask wearing PLUS semi-isolation of populations in dense population centers. And so...
2. They opened everything back up, which made everyone so happy that...
3. massive weddings and other gatherings, including political rallies and religious pilgrimages of outsiders into the country, attracted MILLIONS of people to congregate in close quarters, MOST of whom were not vaccinated. Of course that meant...
4. mutations were a no-brainer. Of course they happened. India had turned itself into a petri dish.

And now, they're in huge trouble because...
5. While they supply 60% of the WORLD's vaccines, they are running short on raw materials and don't have enough to vaccinate their OWN country's population anymore.

Unless all the countries that have benefited from India's vaccine supply start manufacturing their own and getting some over to India pronto, the situation is likely to get worse.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Interesting that folks accept the wild comments and accusations from the "mainstream media" but nitpick every little comment that may be controversial on "certain" networks.

Maybe some folks do, I certainly don't and no one I know does. I am very critical of all media.

I saw Tucker's comments and I don't think he was being sarcastic.

[jimjamuser]

If I get Covid, don’t have symptoms, and pass it on, it will be to someone who also opted not to get the vaccine. Then I will have antibodies and we will all be one step closer to herd immunity...
Strange logic. Enough anti-vaxxers equals NOT getting to "herd Immunity" or getting close to zero cases. The CV wins - not modern medicine in that case. It's like going back to 1940!

[jimjamuser]

Interesting that you chose the
Polio vaccine as an example. Polio effected everyone equally regardless of age or health. The Corona virus mainly impacts overweight people with preexisting health conditions. AIDS killed 700,000 Americans. If they had introduced an AIDS vaccine, would you have taken it?
Yes !

[jimjamuser]

If your vaccination is as reported, then there is no reason for you to wear a mask. Ask any MD that isn't on the gov. payroll and they will tell you that if you are immune, you can't pass the virus on to someone else. The CDC does not have enough confidence in the vaccine, period.
And maybe those that refuse to wear a mask and not get vaccinated, feel they are safe without it. After all, we went a year without the vaccination. Some folks just use what they believe is common sense. They distance, do not cough on others and wash their hands. Even the CDC has said over and over again that if you maintain your distance, you are unlikely to be infected. They even said that even if you are close to an infected, it takes a few minutes of conversing with them in close proximity to be vulnerable to their infection. You know that drill. Besides, everyone knows that these cheap and homemade masks give little protection, and act more as a placebo.
"After all, we went a year without vaccinations". True - time didn't stop. What stopped were the hearts of approximately 500,000 US citizens. It is estimated the 300,000 did NOT have to die if US people had taken the virus seriously. WE blew our response! 50 states went their own direction. Leaders were less than diligent and NOT looking out for US citizens. It was a cluster-frig. Average citizens were NOT patriotic - they listened to nobody or fools like Dr.Atlas. Looking back and forward we need LESS phony individual rights and MORE group consideration! It takes teamwork to beat a strong Pandemic enemy. Look at how India has had a backsliding on their approach to CV. Even in the US - "it is NOT over till it's over"!

[jimjamuser]

We were well into the AIDS epidemic before they narrowed down the methods of transfer. And if you still believe you can get Covid “walking down the street” then you really are clueless...
What if someone sneezed and the wind blew the droplets into your face? Sneezes can travel 15 ft!

[jimjamuser]

And meanwhile, Tucker Carlson on Fox News, said that if you see children wearing masks, you should call the police and report the parents for child abuse. He also urged viewers to harass strangers for wearing masks. And a private school in Miami is saying that it is now against school policy for teachers and/or students to get vaccinated. Yikes! The world is full of idiots.
You are right. I saw that show. It seemed designed to cause chaos and wedges between US citizens. I think that is unpatriotic.

[jimjamuser]

For those of you who are Fox fans, you probably will not like this, but as an avid Fox watcher from the 90’s, and stopped watching because this was surely the future (facts is I was thrilled when the network began),
But Golfingeagles mentioned the producer, and this. May just be the games that started a few years ago on that network,.

This is part of an opinion piece from someone who was a regular on the network. Just a game to divide us, and keep everyone fighting.


The more likely scenario is that, like much of what Carlson says on Fox, this is itself a hoax, a trick played on his own viewers to see how gullible they are, and a ploy to see how outraged he can make the rest of us. Like I said, high-level trolling — just because he can.
Lest you doubt this interpretation, I remind you that Fox’s own lawyers have argued this — that Carlson says things that are intentionally false, and you, the viewer, should be able to tell that from the “general tenor” of the show.

As the U.S. District Judge Mary Kay Vyskocil wrote in an opinion dismissing a lawsuit against Carlson and Fox, “Fox persuasively argues, that given Mr. Carlson’s reputation, any reasonable viewer ‘arrive[s] with an appropriate amount of skepticism’ about the statements he makes.”
It’s a good warning, and one that should perhaps accompany every Carlson broadcast.

Tucker Carlson’s disgusting new low - New York Daily News (https://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/ny-oped-tucker-carlsons-disgusting-new-low-20210427-w47cwgqhv5fyff7c5mbdppky44-story.html)
It's past time for government oversight on shows like that. If they can't stick to real facts then they are JUST propaganda. Propaganda could destroy America!

[GrumpyOldMan]

We seem to be way off topic and trending into politics.

A little more on topic, a repeating theme in this thread seems to be that people don't see a point in getting a vaccination since there is so little chance they will get it, and so little chance that they will die if they do get it.

I guess I have to ask, is that the same small chance the 550,000 that died had?

[jimjamuser]

Maybe some folks do, I certainly don't and no one I know does. I am very critical of all media.

I saw Tucker's comments and I don't think he was being sarcastic.
True. He was NOT being sarcastic.

[Bucco]

We seem to be way off topic and trending into politics.

A little more on topic, a repeating theme in this thread seems to be that people don't see a point in getting a vaccination since there is so little chance they will get it, and so little chance that they will die if they do get it.

I guess I have to ask, is that the same small chance the 550,000 that died had?

I contend that the entire vaccine debate is probably 75% political.

See if the next thing we are told to,"fear" is the vaccine "passport.

[Swoop]

We seem to be way off topic and trending into politics.

A little more on topic, a repeating theme in this thread seems to be that people don't see a point in getting a vaccination since there is so little chance they will get it, and so little chance that they will die if they do get it.

I guess I have to ask, is that the same small chance the 550,000 that died had?

Nope. Of those 550,000 87% were overweight or obese. Each had an average of 2.6 comorbidities. If you aren’t overweight or obese the chance of being hospitalized, at my age is 4/100’s of 1%. And since I don’t have heart disease, lung disease or diabetes it’s considerably lower than that...