CDC release on breakthrough infections

[SkBlogW]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/context/cdc-breakthrough-infections/11fc6a11-20d7-466e-a654-c6bc8426f688/

a few excerpts:

Important to update communications describing breakthrough cases as
“rare” or as a “small percentage” of cases

Increasing percentage of vaccinated persons
among those hospitalized in COVID-NET

▪ Delta is different from previous strains
– Highly contagious
– Likely more severe
– Breakthrough infections may be as transmissible as unvaccinated cases
▪ Vaccines prevent >90% of severe disease, but may be less effective at preventing
infection or transmission
– Therefore, more breakthrough and more community spread despite
vaccination
▪ NPIs are essential to prevent continued spread with current vaccine coverage

[Bonnevie]

cue all the CDC and Fauci hating replies. no matter what the facts, many choose not to believe them. people fail to understand that a virus changes....so what was said a month ago may not be the same as today. the only way to get rid of it is to stop providing hosts.

[billethkid]

cue all the CDC and Fauci hating replies. no matter what the facts, many choose not to believe them. people fail to understand that a virus changes....so what was said a month ago may not be the same as today. the only way to get rid of it is to stop providing hosts.

Which means.................

[oldtimes]

Which means.................

Yet another virus thread, where the same people can say the sames things over and over again.

[HRDave]

Out of approximately 161 million vaccinated individuals in the US only 5900+ breakthrough cases. That’s .0037%. Only 19% of those died. That’s roughly 1200 people out of 161,000,000 vaccinated.
This pandemic surge is the unvaccinated’s problem. Let it burn through the unvaccinated population. If you’re vaccinated you have nothing to worry about. You have a higher chance of being struck by lightning than having a breakthrough case.
No mask needed.

[Bonnevie]

Which means.................

if I have to explain it, it's probably futile. It means get vaccinated and/or wear a mask. once the virus can not find more people to infect, it will subside. like chicken pox, measles, etc.

[roscoguy]

Out of approximately 161 million vaccinated individuals in the US only 5900+ breakthrough cases. That’s .0037%. Only 19% of those died. That’s roughly 1200 people out of 161,000,000 vaccinated.
This is outdated info that the CDC acknowledged was inaccurate even before they stopped counting breakthrough cases & instead tallying hospitalizations and deaths among the vaccinated.
You have a higher chance of being struck by lightning than having a breakthrough case.
No mask needed.
These are just flat out false. You really should read through the CDC's info in the link provided by the OP.

[graciegirl]

Which means.................

The scientific method, taught to me years ago, went like this;

Define the problem.

Gather facts on the problem.

Come to a trial conclusion.

Check the trial conclusion.

I am NOT a scientist, nor am I greatly educated, but I loved all the sciences taught to me in the Columbus Public Schools in the fifties; Botany, Zoology, Biology, Advanced Biology, (Didn't LOVE Chemistry) but passed it. I think it was a very good basis for other learnings in life. I also still really see the obvious truth in Darwin's Theory of Evolution and selective breeding. I wish that I understood Genetics better, because I truly think that the future of medicine rests on it.

[GrumpyOldMan]

The scientific method, taught to me years ago, went like this;

Define the problem.

Gather facts on the problem.

Come to a trial conclusion.

Check the trial conclusion.

I am NOT a scientist, nor am I greatly educated, but I loved all the sciences taught to me in the Columbus Public Schools in the fifties; Botany, Zoology, Biology, Advanced Biology, (Didn't LOVE Chemistry) but passed it. I think it was a very good basis for other learnings in life. I also still really see the obvious truth in Darwin's Theory of Evolution and selective breeding. I wish that I understood Genetics better, because I truly think that the future of medicine rests on it.

Interesting, you left off the part about scientists around the world working their entire lives in a field to become proficient in that field so they could lie to the American people.

( Sarcasm )

[SkBlogW]

The assertion that this is some sort of political stunt is laughable. Our government is not the only one on earth sounding the alarm

Here is a well written article about Israel, the most vaccinated country in the world, and it includes links to actual studies they are doing. Israel is reimposing indoor mask guidelines.

90255

COVID-19 Case Data in Israel: A Troubling Trend? (https://trialsitenews.com/covid-19-case-data-in-israel-a-troubling-trend/)

[golfing eagles]

The assertion that this is some sort of political stunt is laughable. Our government is not the only one on earth sounding the alarm

Here is a well written article about Israel, the most vaccinated country in the world, and it includes links to actual studies they are doing. Israel is reimposing indoor mask guidelines.

90255

COVID-19 Case Data in Israel: A Troubling Trend? (https://trialsitenews.com/covid-19-case-data-in-israel-a-troubling-trend/)

Since you thought your post was so profound that you needed to repeat it on multiple threads, I'll be happy to repeat the response:

Not a political "stunt" by any means. I suggested that the data can be presented in such a way as to bias the public toward a desired political agenda, or not. Let's see. Please read carefully, I admit that I sometimes write in such a way that not all can understand.

[billethkid]

if I have to explain it, it's probably futile. It means get vaccinated and/or wear a mask. once the virus can not find more people to infect, it will subside. like chicken pox, measles, etc.

Futile.....based a wrong conclusion.
I do not make assumptions.....also no reading between the lines....and no comprehension of oblique messages......hence say what is meant to be sure there are no errors in understanding!!!

[Art cov]

This is to be taken seriously as I know a fully vaccinated lady 67 who passed 2 days ago from covid However, I don’t understand how our citizens must wear mask and be vaccinated, while many, many people from countries around the world are coming into our country at the Mexican border that are not vaccinated or have no mask. Seems like nobody cares about this at all. They are not taking this seriously. Seems crazy to say come on in just the way you are but try to make an unvaccinated person that is a citizen of the U.S. be under a different standard. The problem will never be solved if millions of unvaccinated come into our country. Totally crazy!

[Irishmen]

if I have to explain it, it's probably futile. It means get vaccinated and/or wear a mask. once the virus can not find more people to infect, it will subside. like chicken pox, measles, etc.

We used to call this natural immunity....

[Bonnevie]

Futile.....based a wrong conclusion.
I do not make assumptions.....also no reading between the lines....and no comprehension of oblique messages......hence say what is meant to be sure there are no errors in understanding!!!

so here is my original that you find so oblique. cue all the CDC and Fauci hating replies. no matter what the facts, many choose not to believe them. people fail to understand that a virus changes....so what was said a month ago may not be the same as today. the only way to get rid of it is to stop providing hosts.

I point out there will be many replies expressing hatred of Fauci and CDC. which happened. many replies indicate that there are some people who won't believe the facts. check. viruses mutate all the time and the only way to ultimately stop it is to starve it of hosts.

I still fail to see what is confusing or oblique about that. but ok, I'll let you get the last word. fire away.

[Velvet]

Out of approximately 161 million vaccinated individuals in the US only 5900+ breakthrough cases. That’s .0037%. Only 19% of those died. That’s roughly 1200 people out of 161,000,000 vaccinated.
This pandemic surge is the unvaccinated’s problem. Let it burn through the unvaccinated population. If you’re vaccinated you have nothing to worry about. You have a higher chance of being struck by lightning than having a breakthrough case.
No mask needed.

Only 5900 hospitalized … so far… and increasing. As in Star Wars, “May the Force be with you.”

Florida 17,589 cases July 29/21 NYT

[billethkid]

so here is my original that you find so oblique. cue all the CDC and Fauci hating replies. no matter what the facts, many choose not to believe them. people fail to understand that a virus changes....so what was said a month ago may not be the same as today. the only way to get rid of it is to stop providing hosts.

I point out there will be many replies expressing hatred of Fauci and CDC. which happened. many replies indicate that there are some people who won't believe the facts. check. viruses mutate all the time and the only way to ultimately stop it is to starve it of hosts.

I still fail to see what is confusing or oblique about that. but ok, I'll let you get the last word. fire away.

To continue would be....futile.
The End!:)

[Bill14564]

The assertion that this is some sort of political stunt is laughable. Our government is not the only one on earth sounding the alarm

Here is a well written article about Israel, the most vaccinated country in the world, and it includes links to actual studies they are doing. Israel is reimposing indoor mask guidelines.

90255

COVID-19 Case Data in Israel: A Troubling Trend? (https://trialsitenews.com/covid-19-case-data-in-israel-a-troubling-trend/)

Am I the only one who finds this data a bit too perfect and hard to believe?

- The table shows 779 cases but both the JHU and WaPo sites show over 1400 cases (unfortunately, I cannot read the three sites provided in the article)

- The data is too perfect. Every group, with the exception of the 90+ group, is within 3% points. I would have to dig out some old college texts to figure the probability of that happening randomly.

- If the data is true, then the vaccine is doing absolutely nothing to slow infections. It was never said to be 100% effective, but absolutely 0?

- This data is not consistent with the (limited) data that has been presented from other countries. Only in Israel are the breakthrough cases in proportion to the number of people vaccinated.

Something is going on but the cleanliness of this data and the contrast with any other data set makes me skeptical.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Am I the only one who finds this data a bit too perfect and hard to believe?

- The table shows 779 cases but both the JHU and WaPo sites show over 1400 cases (unfortunately, I cannot read the three sites provided in the article)

- The data is too perfect. Every group, with the exception of the 90+ group, is within 3% points. I would have to dig out some old college texts to figure the probability of that happening randomly.

- If the data is true, then the vaccine is doing absolutely nothing to slow infections. It was never said to be 100% effective, but absolutely 0?

- This data is not consistent with the (limited) data that has been presented from other countries. Only in Israel are the breakthrough cases in proportion to the number of people vaccinated.

Something is going on but the cleanliness of this data and the contrast with any other data set makes me skeptical.

So, posts here constantly complain that no one agrees on any of the data, and now you complain that there is too much agreement. Okay....

[golfing eagles]

I do believe we have common ground on that! I agree.

Oh, no, not AGAIN:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

[coffeebean]

Out of approximately 161 million vaccinated individuals in the US only 5900+ breakthrough cases. That’s .0037%. Only 19% of those died. That’s roughly 1200 people out of 161,000,000 vaccinated.
This pandemic surge is the unvaccinated’s problem. Let it burn through the unvaccinated population. If you’re vaccinated you have nothing to worry about. You have a higher chance of being struck by lightning than having a breakthrough case.
No mask needed.

Agree that I have nothing to worry about because I'm vaccinated. I truly do believe that.

Agree I have extremely little chance of having a breakthrough case. I truly do believe that.

Agree. I do not need to mask up anywhere. I truly do believe that because anyone who is either not vaccinated for what ever their reason is, THEY can protect themselves with an N95 or equivalent mask when in public indoor spaces. Don't expect me to mask up forever to protect them.

Disagree that this pandemic surge is the un-vaccinated's problem. I truly believe this pandemic is everyone's problem for one reason and one reason only. The possibility of a variant that evades our current vaccines is very concerning. I can not even wrap my head around the logistics of what that could possibly mean for us.

We need more people to get themselves vaccinated to lessen the amount of hosts this virus need to perpetuate this pandemic. We certainly do not need to deal with any more variants, especially a variant that totally evades our vaccines.

[coffeebean]

if I have to explain it, it's probably futile. It means get vaccinated and/or wear a mask. once the virus can not find more people to infect, it will subside. like chicken pox, measles, etc.


Chicken pox and measles vaccines have kept these diseases at bay, nearly wiping them out. Yes, VACCINES. So glad people of previous generations did not snub vaccines the way our current generations do.

[HRDave]

On July 19th CDC reported that out of approximately 161 million vaccinated individuals in the US only 5900+ breakthrough cases reported. That’s .0037%. Only 19% of those died. That’s roughly 1200 people out of 161,000,000 vaccinated.
This pandemic surge is the unvaccinated’s problem. Let it burn through the unvaccinated population. If you’re vaccinated you have nothing to worry about. You have a higher chance of being struck by lightning than having a breakthrough case.
No mask needed

[jimjamuser]

Yet another virus thread, where the same people can say the sames things over and over again.
Why chit-chat about everyday things when there IS a REAL threat to US National Health and ultimately welfare and even national Defense looming over us today? Is that the "head in the sand" defense? I imagine that Russia and China just might be looking for US weaknesses!

[jimjamuser]

The CDC must believe that the Delta CV would "burn through" the UNvaccinated QUICKER and be more Deadly if they did NOT advise vaccinated AND UNvaccinated people to wear masks at crowded indoor gatherings. The CDC, apparently, believes that UNvaccinated people can be good people and productive citizens. The CDC must protect ALL citizens from the possible trauma caused to them when hospitals become FULL. The CDC is protecting ALL Americans against higher insurance costs and bankruptcy-closed hospitals from the VERY long and expensive stays of CV patients. The CDC is protecting Americans against problems caused by long-haul CV complications. Citizen protection is the goal of the CDC and more broadly ANY nation's democratic Government.

[Swoop]

Does anyone else find it strange that the CDC has no problem reporting the number of new Covid cases, but has given up reporting the number of breakthrough cases…

[jimjamuser]

This is to be taken seriously as I know a fully vaccinated lady 67 who passed 2 days ago from covid However, I don’t understand how our citizens must wear mask and be vaccinated, while many, many people from countries around the world are coming into our country at the Mexican border that are not vaccinated or have no mask. Seems like nobody cares about this at all. They are not taking this seriously. Seems crazy to say come on in just the way you are but try to make an unvaccinated person that is a citizen of the U.S. be under a different standard. The problem will never be solved if millions of unvaccinated come into our country. Totally crazy!
I agree! And the pressure for migration from the south is ALL around the globe. It is caused by Global Warming. Both migration pressure and warming will increase for the foreseeable future. The US is especially vulnerable because of our freedom-loving form of government, wealth, and just being too "NICE" for our own good.

[golfing eagles]

I agree! And the pressure for migration from the south is ALL around the globe. It is caused by Global Warming. Both migration pressure and warming will increase for the foreseeable future. The US is especially vulnerable because of our freedom-loving form of government, wealth, and just being too "NICE" for our own good.

Global warming???? OMG, what a joke!!!!
What do you think---they come here because we have better air conditioners?????

Maybe, just maybe it's all the "free stuff" we hand them
Maybe, just maybe it's because it is far better to be "poor" here than where they come from.

Meanwhile , some people who do not understand science or paleoclimatology continue to buy into this giant (and very expensive) hoax of global warming that certain segments want to shove down our throats.

[HRDave]

The CDC must believe that the Delta CV would "burn through" the UNvaccinated QUICKER and be more Deadly if they did NOT advise vaccinated AND UNvaccinated people to wear masks at crowded indoor gatherings. The CDC, apparently, believes that UNvaccinated people can be good people and productive citizens. The CDC must protect ALL citizens from the possible trauma caused to them when hospitals become FULL. The CDC is protecting ALL Americans against higher insurance costs and bankruptcy-closed hospitals from the VERY long and expensive stays of CV patients. The CDC is protecting Americans against problems caused by long-haul CV complications. Citizen protection is the goal of the CDC and more broadly ANY nation's democratic Government.

If you don’t want to get sick get vaccinated! If you don’t want to get vaccinated, get sick. It’s as simple as that.

If the unvaccinated do not care about their own health or the health of others who are unvaccinated stay out of the way of those who got the vaccine.

[TNLAKEPANDA]

If you are afraid just stay home. We can no lo trust what our Government tells us .. Those days are long gone!

[Lindsyburnsy]

Get vaccinated!

[HRDave]

Only 5900 hospitalized … so far… and increasing. As in Star Wars, “May the Force be with you.”

Florida 17,589 cases July 29/21 NYT

.0037% Basically zero percent.
1194 deaths in breakthrough cases out of 161 million vaccinated people = .00071%.
How close to zero do you need??

So it’s growing. It’s gonna take a lot of growing before it’s a significant number.
It’s GOT to burn through the unvaccinated population before it dies down. You can’t force those people to get vaccinated or you’re going to have a much larger problem than COVID-19 on your hands. The American people will not be tolerant of that.

CDC recently updated estimated infection fatality rates for COVID. Here are the updated survival rates by age group:

0-19: 99.997%
20-49: 99.98%
50-69: 99.5%
70+: 94.6%

I’m not going to live in fear. It’s absolutely ridiculous. Let the unvaccinated make their choice.
If you’re vaccinated you have nothing to fear, but fear itself!
Hey! I’ve heard that somewhere before! 😎

[HRDave]

Agree that I have nothing to worry about because I'm vaccinated. I truly do believe that.

Agree I have extremely little chance of having a breakthrough case. I truly do believe that.

Agree. I do not need to mask up anywhere. I truly do believe that because anyone who is either not vaccinated for what ever their reason is, THEY can protect themselves with an N95 or equivalent mask when in public indoor spaces. Don't expect me to mask up forever to protect them.

Disagree that this pandemic surge is the un-vaccinated's problem. I truly believe this pandemic is everyone's problem for one reason and one reason only. The possibility of a variant that evades our current vaccines is very concerning. I can not even wrap my head around the logistics of what that could possibly mean for us.

We need more people to get themselves vaccinated to lessen the amount of hosts this virus need to perpetuate this pandemic. We certainly do not need to deal with any more variants, especially a variant that totally evades our vaccines.

Thanks, but the virus is with us forever now. Just like Influenza & The Common Cold. It’s NOT going away. It will mutate until some medical miracle comes along & totally eradicated it. Corona viruses are programmed to mutate to survive. Just pray that the next virus that comes along isn’t more deadly. COVID-19 is nothing compared to what could be.
THAT’S what you need to fear.

[Swoop]

Thanks, but the virus is with us forever now. Just like Influenza & The Common Cold. It’s NOT going away. It will mutate until some medical miracle comes along & totally eradicated it. Corona viruses are programmed to mutate to survive. Just pray that the next virus that comes along isn’t more deadly. COVID-19 is nothing compared to what could be.
THAT’S what you need to fear.

Like the two prior Covid viruses, MERS & SARS…
Do a little research before presenting your “feelings” as facts…

[HRDave]

Like the two prior Covid viruses, MERS & SARS…
Do a little research before presenting your “feelings” as facts…

Those are still with us!

[HRDave]

COVID-19 is actually SARS-CoV-2

[heenables]

https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/21030483/outbreak-of-sars-cov-2-infections-including-covid-19-vaccine-breakthrough-infections-associated-with-large-public-gatherings-massachusetts-july-30-2021.pdf

Facts are facts... One could get upset with all the vaccinated spreading the virus. I personally don't care but if you think it's an unvaccinated spread well maybe you should think again. :ohdear:

[Swoop]

Those are still with us!

Again, do a little research. There hasn’t been a case of SARS since 2004…

[HRDave]

It’s still lurking 👀.
2012
October 5: The National Select Agent Registry Program declared SARS-coronavirus a select agent. A select agent is a bacterium, virus or toxin that has the potential to pose a severe threat to public health and safety.

[HRDave]

https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/21030483/outbreak-of-sars-cov-2-infections-including-covid-19-vaccine-breakthrough-infections-associated-with-large-public-gatherings-massachusetts-july-30-2021.pdf

Facts are facts... One could get upset with all the vaccinated spreading the virus. I personally don't care but if you think it's an unvaccinated spread well maybe you should think again. :ohdear:

We’re going to see clusters like that, but how many hospitalizations or fatalities came from that event?

[HRDave]

It’s still lurking 👀.
2012
October 5: The National Select Agent Registry Program declared SARS-coronavirus a select agent. A select agent is a bacterium, virus or toxin that has the potential to pose a severe threat to public health and safety.

“274 (79%) vaccinated patients with breakthrough infection were symptomatic. Among five COVID-19 patients who were hospitalized, four were fully vaccinated; no deaths were reported. “

[coffeebean]

You can’t force those people to get vaccinated or you’re going to have a much larger problem than COVID-19 on your hands. The American people will not be tolerant of that.



It is starting already.....................

Disney and Walmart mandates vaccines for all corporate employees - CNN (https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/30/business/walmart-mask-policy-delta-covid/index.html)

News Releases - Office of Public and Intergovernmental Affairs (https://www.va.gov/opa/pressrel/pressrelease.cfm?id=5696)

[heenables]

We’re going to see clusters like that, but how many hospitalizations or fatalities came from that event?
It's in the article.

[HRDave]

It is starting already.....................

Disney and Walmart mandates vaccines for all corporate employees - CNN (https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/30/business/walmart-mask-policy-delta-covid/index.html)

News Releases - Office of Public and Intergovernmental Affairs (https://www.va.gov/opa/pressrel/pressrelease.cfm?id=5696)

There will be lawsuits. My experience in Healthcare HR showed that the employer will have to prove a valid reason for compelling employees to submit to a vaccine that hasn’t been approved by the FDA yet. We tried to force hospital employees to take the Flu vaccine in Illinois & were overruled by a judge who said as long as there was an alternative way to protect patients from infection, ie an N-95 Mask, we could not use vaccination as a condition of employment.
That was with an approved vaccine.
We’ll see how that pans out in today’s world.

[HRDave]

It's in the article.


“274 (79%) vaccinated patients with breakthrough infection were symptomatic. Among five COVID-19 patients who were hospitalized, four were fully vaccinated; no deaths were reported. “ in the article.

Sounds like the vaccine is doing exactly what it is designed to do.

[John41]

Does anyone else find it strange that the CDC has no problem reporting the number of new Covid cases, but has given up reporting the number of breakthrough cases…

And no mention of cases at the southern border. iCE estimates 1.7 million illegal aliens will cross the southern border this year which is more than the state of Vermont. And Fauci says it’s not his problem.

[heenables]

“274 (79%) vaccinated patients with breakthrough infection were symptomatic. Among five COVID-19 patients who were hospitalized, four were fully vaccinated; no deaths were reported. “ in the article.

Sounds like the vaccine is doing exactly what it is designed to do.
It was designed to have major breakthrough and the same death rate as the unvaccinated? Sounds reasonable... Now the comments of well there will be clusters etc. It's one of the only studies that shows the facts as they really are and I don't think many people here want to hear how many people are vulnerable to breakthrough after being vaccinated. I think the more major point of this study is stop pointing fingers at the unvaccinated with no proof and be concerned about yourself. You don't need to worry about me because I'm surely not worried about you. Put your mask on and hide in your home because there is a miniscule chance that either jabbed or not you will die.

[Mrodmh]

74% of COVID-19 cases in Massachusetts outbreak involved fully vaccinated people, CDC says (https://www.q13fox.com/news/74-of-covid-19-cases-in-massachusetts-outbreak-involved-fully-vaccinated-people-cdc-says)

[Irishmen]

Our leaders are such hypocrites. Tell us to go sit in our house as they send millions of untested illegals to be spread throughout our country, all for their gain. Trust has gone.

This. Feel bad for millions of Americans who are starting to be evicted today because the govt, not the virus, shut our economy down while they sip on Margaritas in their mountain retreats.

[Bonnevie]

I'm so glad I watch Fox News occasionally so I can keep up with the latest pivots....I see the constant pivoting to immigration and I can almost hear Tucker, or Laura, or Sean.....it is not Fauci's job to handle immigration...it's his job to study the virus and report, BASED ON FACTS, his recommendations. Yes, immigration is a problem but it is separate from the rest of the country's problem with the virus. Florida and all the counties in the Villages have very high positivity rates. That is the problem that needs to be addressed. Although, since people are so upset about immigration, I can't help but notice all the Hispanics doing the roof replacements in our neighborhood for all the law and order conservatives basically defrauding their insurance companies by claiming "storm damage" on 15 year old roofs. Show me an American who wants to replace a roof when the feels like temperature is 104? so much hypocrisy. They may be here legally or not, but they are doing work no American wants to do and since it's benefiting the "Build the Wall" people then it's ok.

[roscoguy]

On July 19th CDC reported that out of approximately 161 million vaccinated individuals in the US only 5900+ breakthrough cases reported. That’s .0037%. Only 19% of those died. That’s roughly 1200 people out of 161,000,000 vaccinated.

No matter how many times you repeat it, this is still misinformation. Here's what the CDC actually says: "As of July 26, 2021, more than 163 million people in the United States had been fully vaccinated against COVID-19.
During the same time, CDC received reports from 49 U.S. states and territories of 6,587 patients with COVID-19 vaccine breakthrough infection who were hospitalized or died." COVID-19 Breakthrough Case Investigations and Reporting | CDC (https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/health-departments/breakthrough-cases.html)

They quit trying to count total breakthrough cases in April.

[graciegirl]

It was designed to have major breakthrough and the same death rate as the unvaccinated? Sounds reasonable... Now the comments of well there will be clusters etc. It's one of the only studies that shows the facts as they really are and I don't think many people here want to hear how many people are vulnerable to breakthrough after being vaccinated. I think the more major point of this study is stop pointing fingers at the unvaccinated with no proof and be concerned about yourself. You don't need to worry about me because I'm surely not worried about you. Put your mask on and hide in your home because there is a miniscule chance that either jabbed or not you will die.

Good morning to you too, neighbor and friend. Who ****ed in your Wheaties?

[roscoguy]

And no mention of cases at the southern border. iCE estimates 1.7 million illegal aliens will cross the southern border this year which is more than the state of Vermont. And Fauci says it’s not his problem.

Can you post a link to support this? The only things I could find say that ICE expects approximately 1.7m apprehensions or attempted illegal crossings in 2021. Also, while there are certainly many unvaccinated among these attempted illegal immigrants, there are over 150 million U.S. residents who are also unvaccinated, many by their own choice. Statistically speaking, who is the more likely culprit in spreading the virus?

[PugMom]

so here is my original that you find so oblique. cue all the CDC and Fauci hating replies. no matter what the facts, many choose not to believe them. people fail to understand that a virus changes....so what was said a month ago may not be the same as today. the only way to get rid of it is to stop providing hosts.

I point out there will be many replies expressing hatred of Fauci and CDC. which happened. many replies indicate that there are some people who won't believe the facts. check. viruses mutate all the time and the only way to ultimately stop it is to starve it of hosts.

I still fail to see what is confusing or oblique about that. but ok, I'll let you get the last word. fire away.

i can see your point, however, it's not that we HATE fauci. since his hacked emails were released, we know the extent of his truths & falsehoods. how can i possibly trust someone who has his own interests in mind? i don't come into things with preconceived notions, its the persons' behavior that leads me to suspicion

[Irishmen]

You are one ignoramus that can afford to get the virus. Last week had 4 friends from village club PREVIOUSLY VACCINATED that came down with covid. They were around me quite a while that day. I had a mask. I was vaccinated and was wearing a mask. I am ok, they are not.
The virus is a cool way of culling the herd of dim witted decision makers.
Get a good photo of yourself for the next of kin.

You cannot get the virus if you have been vaccinated. The ruling class said so.

[PugMom]

Global warming???? OMG, what a joke!!!!
What do you think---they come here because we have better air conditioners?????

Maybe, just maybe it's all the "free stuff" we hand them
Maybe, just maybe it's because it is far better to be "poor" here than where they come from.

Meanwhile , some people who do not understand science or paleoclimatology continue to buy into this giant (and very expensive) hoax of global warming that certain segments want to shove down our throats.

:mademyday:

[PugMom]

.0037% Basically zero percent.
1194 deaths in breakthrough cases out of 161 million vaccinated people = .00071%.
How close to zero do you need??

So it’s growing. It’s gonna take a lot of growing before it’s a significant number.
It’s GOT to burn through the unvaccinated population before it dies down. You can’t force those people to get vaccinated or you’re going to have a much larger problem than COVID-19 on your hands. The American people will not be tolerant of that.

CDC recently updated estimated infection fatality rates for COVID. Here are the updated survival rates by age group:

0-19: 99.997%
20-49: 99.98%
50-69: 99.5%
70+: 94.6%

I’m not going to live in fear. It’s absolutely ridiculous. Let the unvaccinated make their choice.
If you’re vaccinated you have nothing to fear, but fear itself!
Hey! I’ve heard that somewhere before! 😎

thank you for the open-minded approach!

[graciegirl]

Same govt who closed churches and small business only to let pot shops and strip clubs stay open. Same gov't who will be kicking out millions of people from their homes starting this weekend. You see we are the stupid people who hate science because we refuse to trust the people who have spent the last 18 months lying to us. Our ruling class is utterly corrupt and dishonest.

This post is all over the place. In Florida, Churches were not closed by any government directive, but many were closed out of an abundance of caution.

People may have lost their jobs and were unable to make their bills due to the pandemic and the falling employment for a variety of connected reasons. I truly thought I saw people who were elected TRYING to keep things afloat financially, but the ultimate financial security rests often with small and large decisions that people make daily. I was taught, being a child of parents who lived through the depression, that no matter how little you have, to save some of it for VERY hard times and reuse, recycle and repurpose so that someday you and your children will not be faced with eviction and hunger. Buy or rent a smaller home and put some in the bank. I know that that does not cover all evictions, but it does cover some.

We can't get carried away in blanket anger. We can't blame others for things we could prevent.

We can't throw the baby out with the bath water.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

.0037% Basically zero percent.
1194 deaths in breakthrough cases out of 161 million vaccinated people = .00071%.
How close to zero do you need??

So it’s growing. It’s gonna take a lot of growing before it’s a significant number.
It’s GOT to burn through the unvaccinated population before it dies down. You can’t force those people to get vaccinated or you’re going to have a much larger problem than COVID-19 on your hands. The American people will not be tolerant of that.

CDC recently updated estimated infection fatality rates for COVID. Here are the updated survival rates by age group:

0-19: 99.997%
20-49: 99.98%
50-69: 99.5%
70+: 94.6%

I’m not going to live in fear. It’s absolutely ridiculous. Let the unvaccinated make their choice.
If you’re vaccinated you have nothing to fear, but fear itself!
Hey! I’ve heard that somewhere before! 😎

Vaccine mandates eradicated smallpox. Americans DID put up with it then. What's changed?

The mindset of people who CAN vaccinate, refusing to vaccinate is foreign to me. That, to me, is the mindset of some unaware creature who is not self-realized, who doesn't understand its place in the world, that is not a sentient being at all. The one who says "we don't know if it's safe" is the one who lives under a rock and really should just stay under that rock until the vaccine blows over, to keep them from causing harm to anyone else.

The ones who say "well YOU are vaccinated, so I don't have to be" are the ones that annoy me the worst. They will rant and rave and rail against "socialism" but demand that everyone else keep them safe, as an entitlement, so they don't have to take pro-active measures to keep themselves safe. And of course they aren't required to help keep anyone else safe.

The only people who should not WANT to vaccinate, are people who are not eligible to vaccinate. Medically unable to handle it, and kids under 12. Everyone else should be lining up and eagerly taking the "jab," as the anti-vaxxer conspiracy theorists call it.

[Irishmen]

This post is all over the place. In Florida, Churches were not closed by any government directive, but many were closed out of an abundance of caution.

People may have lost their jobs and were unable to make their bills due to the pandemic and the falling employment for a variety of connected reasons. I truly thought I saw people who were elected TRYING to keep things afloat financially, but the ultimate financial security rests often with small and large decisions that people make daily. I was taught, being a child of parents who lived through the depression, that no matter how little you have, to save some of it for VERY hard times and reuse, recycle and repurpose so that someday you and your children will not be faced with eviction and hunger. Buy or rent a smaller home and put some in the bank. I know that that does not cover all evictions, but it does cover some.

We can't get carried away in blanket anger. We can't blame others for things we could prevent.

We can't throw the baby out with the bath water.


Charges dropped against Tampa pastor who held services during stay-at-home order (https://www.tampabay.com/news/health/2020/05/15/charges-dropped-against-tampa-pastor-who-held-services-during-stay-at-home-order/)

[kendi]

The scientific method, taught to me years ago, went like this;

Define the problem.

Gather facts on the problem.

Come to a trial conclusion.

Check the trial conclusion.

I am NOT a scientist, nor am I greatly educated, but I loved all the sciences taught to me in the Columbus Public Schools in the fifties; Botany, Zoology, Biology, Advanced Biology, (Didn't LOVE Chemistry) but passed it. I think it was a very good basis for other learnings in life. I also still really see the obvious truth in Darwin's Theory of Evolution and selective breeding. I wish that I understood Genetics better, because I truly think that the future of medicine rests on it.

Yes, I learned this as well. But what it fails to include is that the "scientists" are not flawless. They make mistakes, can have an agenda, can be biased (even if not conscious of it) and so on. Scientists are humans too and there is a lot of pressure politically on them today that there wasn't back then. Also a lot of pressure within the field itself.

Add to this the difficulty in doing a study. There are multiple factors that need to be controlled in order for the study to be credible. And as I mentioned above the individuals must be unbiased. Meaning they have to have an excellent sense of self awareness cause it it very easy for anyone to bring bias into a study. There are other factors to consider as well such as the length of the study, the number of subjects studied, cross section of the subjects being studied, etc, etc. It's really quite surprising how many people quote "studies" as being factual without ever looking into how the study was done and the many factors that may have skewed the study. Even what the CDC puts out needs to taken with a grain of salt. Esp since it's a government entity that is vulnerable to persuasion by the powers to be.

[Pat2015]

Agree!
“CDC recently updated estimated infection fatality rates for COVID. Here are the updated survival rates by age group:

0-19: 99.997%
20-49: 99.98%
50-69: 99.5%
70+: 94.6%”

Yet here we go again with vaccinated people masking up, discussions of schools possibly not opening up, and I guess next up are the business closures and churches again??? This is nuts!

[Spalumbos62]

You're correct. Immigration is not Fauci's responsibility. But if he was being honest, he'd certainly point to the mass migration occurring on the Southern border as being a huge problem as far as spreading the virus is concerned.

The government is sending these untested and unvaccinated people all over the country. At the same time, it's telling legal citizens they MUST wear masks and MUST get vaccinated. AND, it's telling the State of Texas, it's illegal for that State to stop the Feds from transporting these illegals to places unknown. AND, it has shut down the Northern border where the influx of illegals is practically nil.

The government is not looking out for the best interests of its citizens. It's all about power and control.


I can't tell what you are more mad at...the immigrants for coming in, or that they aren't vaccinated. Maybe they can't get the vaccine because they need to show proof of citizenship, which of course they don't have. The circle continues.
So maybe, instead of bit#$ing that they are here w/o a vaccine, yet happy they are doing the hot roofing jobs, the employer- and I use that term loosely- should provide the service of a vaccine. Of course there is just something not right about this suggestion, it would certainly solve the problem.

[John41]

Those are still with us!

I'm so glad I watch Fox News occasionally so I can keep up with the latest pivots....I see the constant pivoting to immigration and I can almost hear Tucker, or Laura, or Sean.....it is not Fauci's job to handle immigration...it's his job to study the virus and report, BASED ON FACTS, his recommendations. Yes, immigration is a problem but it is separate from the rest of the country's problem with the virus. Florida and all the counties in the Villages have very high positivity rates. That is the problem that needs to be addressed. Although, since people are so upset about immigration, I can't help but notice all the Hispanics doing the roof replacements in our neighborhood for all the law and order conservatives basically defrauding their insurance companies by claiming "storm damage" on 15 year old roofs. Show me an American who wants to replace a roof when the feels like temperature is 104? so much hypocrisy. They may be here legally or not, but they are doing work no American wants to do and since it's benefiting the "Build the Wall" people then it's ok.

So it’s OK for illegal aliens to take jobs from AMERICAN minorities so you can get an illegal to do your roof on the cheap.

[Pat2015]

Can you post a link to support this? The only things I could find say that ICE expects approximately 1.7m apprehensions or attempted illegal crossings in 2021. Also, while there are certainly many unvaccinated among these attempted illegal immigrants, there are over 150 million U.S. residents who are also unvaccinated, many by their own choice. Statistically speaking, who is the more likely culprit in spreading the virus?
The border should be closed with no one allowed in at this time! 13% is the positive rate for illegals and they are being released into our country. How about living in a border town where they are released being covid positive and they are staying in local hotels as reported in the news this week? It doesn’t take a genius to see that there is something very wrong here and why is this being allowed when we are struggling to get COVID under control with our own citizens?

[graciegirl]

[B]


Charges dropped against Tampa pastor who held services during stay-at-home order (https://www.tampabay.com/news/health/2020/05/15/charges-dropped-against-tampa-pastor-who-held-services-during-stay-at-home-order/)

Last paragraph of article you quoted;

"Staver contended that Howard-Browne’s arrest prompted Gov. Ron DeSantis to exempt churches, synagogue and other houses of worship in a statewide stay-at-home order released on April 1."

[Bill14564]

.0037% Basically zero percent.
1194 deaths in breakthrough cases out of 161 million vaccinated people = .00071%.
How close to zero do you need??

So it’s growing. It’s gonna take a lot of growing before it’s a significant number.
It’s GOT to burn through the unvaccinated population before it dies down. You can’t force those people to get vaccinated or you’re going to have a much larger problem than COVID-19 on your hands. The American people will not be tolerant of that.

CDC recently updated estimated infection fatality rates for COVID. Here are the updated survival rates by age group:

0-19: 99.997%
20-49: 99.98%
50-69: 99.5%
70+: 94.6%

I’m not going to live in fear. It’s absolutely ridiculous. Let the unvaccinated make their choice.
If you’re vaccinated you have nothing to fear, but fear itself!
Hey! I’ve heard that somewhere before! 😎

Agree!
“CDC recently updated estimated infection fatality rates for COVID. Here are the updated survival rates by age group:

0-19: 99.997%
20-49: 99.98%
50-69: 99.5%
70+: 94.6%”

Yet here we go again with vaccinated people masking up, discussions of schools possibly not opening up, and I guess next up are the business closures and churches again??? This is nuts!

Do either of you happen to have a link to where you found these numbers?

They don't appear to match the numbers from this CDC page with current counts (https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#demographics) or this CDC page with estimates for undercounts (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/cases-updates/burden.html). Perhaps there is a third CDC page?

(Note: the numbers are close to those on the estimates page - let's hope the estimates are correct?)

[coffeebean]

There will be lawsuits. My experience in Healthcare HR showed that the employer will have to prove a valid reason for compelling employees to submit to a vaccine that hasn’t been approved by the FDA yet. We tried to force hospital employees to take the Flu vaccine in Illinois & were overruled by a judge who said as long as there was an alternative way to protect patients from infection, ie an N-95 Mask, we could not use vaccination as a condition of employment.
That was with an approved vaccine.
We’ll see how that pans out in today’s world.

Employees wearing mandated N95 masks to protect themselves and their patients is an excellent option to mandated vaccines.

[Irishmen]

Last paragraph of article you quoted;

"Staver contended that Howard-Browne’s arrest prompted Gov. Ron DeSantis to exempt churches, synagogue and other houses of worship in a statewide stay-at-home order released on April 1."

I feel terrible for the good people of Australia under the gun of military now. The authoritism does not match

[HRDave]

It was designed to have major breakthrough and the same death rate as the unvaccinated? Sounds reasonable... Now the comments of well there will be clusters etc. It's one of the only studies that shows the facts as they really are and I don't think many people here want to hear how many people are vulnerable to breakthrough after being vaccinated. I think the more major point of this study is stop pointing fingers at the unvaccinated with no proof and be concerned about yourself. You don't need to worry about me because I'm surely not worried about you. Put your mask on and hide in your home because there is a miniscule chance that either jabbed or not you will die.

The vaccine, like the Flu vaccine, may not stop you from becoming infected. It’s a mitigation to prevent serious illness or death. The Massachusetts cluster demonstrates just that. 274 vaccinated people infected at a beach party & only 4 were hospitalized & zero deaths!

I’m not a mask wearer & I’m damn sure NOT afraid!😎

[jimjamuser]

It is starting already.....................

Disney and Walmart mandates vaccines for all corporate employees - CNN (https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/30/business/walmart-mask-policy-delta-covid/index.html)

News Releases - Office of Public and Intergovernmental Affairs (https://www.va.gov/opa/pressrel/pressrelease.cfm?id=5696)
Private companies are more nimble and flexible than the Federal Government. So, they can do the RIGHT thing and lead the way. "You can fool some of the people (like on a forum) ALL of the time". But, "you can't fool ALL of the people ALL of the time". Do the right thing, listen to the CDC, and get your shot. Lives are depending on you!

[jimjamuser]

There will be lawsuits. My experience in Healthcare HR showed that the employer will have to prove a valid reason for compelling employees to submit to a vaccine that hasn’t been approved by the FDA yet. We tried to force hospital employees to take the Flu vaccine in Illinois & were overruled by a judge who said as long as there was an alternative way to protect patients from infection, ie an N-95 Mask, we could not use vaccination as a condition of employment.
That was with an approved vaccine.
We’ll see how that pans out in today’s world.
It is simple logic.......a mask can help to prevent a small % of CV infections. But, vaccines prevent close to 100% of hospitalizations and deaths. Most Judges and even regular people and forum-dwellers will eventually figure that one out.

[HRDave]

We’ll see what happens as it plays out in the courts.

[Escape Artist]

The vaccine, like the Flu vaccine, may not stop you from becoming infected. It’s a mitigation to prevent serious illness or death. The Massachusetts cluster demonstrates just that. 274 vaccinated people infected at a beach party & only 4 were hospitalized & zero deaths!

I’m not a mask wearer & I’m damn sure NOT afraid!😎

You're correct about the hospitalizations and death. That's always been the endgame, IMO, and I recall the CDC and medical professionals saying as much even early on. They never said you can't get COVID if vaccinated but that the impact would be less. Also, they knew you could still carry the virus and shed it which is why they want as many people as possible to be vaccinated.

Even traditional vaccines for the seasonal flu and other viruses are not 100 percent effective. People still get the flu after they've had the flu shot! Every doctor will tell you that. But they also will say if you get it you will have a milder form and less likely to end up in the hospital or worse.

[Byte1]

New information is always interesting to me, BUT I would also appreciate it if they would give the positive along with the negative.
For instance, a friend of mine was about hysterical about the spike in Covid cases this month. I found it interesting, BUT since he seemed to be hyperventilating I decided to look up a figure that everyone should be able to appreciate. Turns out that the death rate in his state for the whole month was less than ONE DAY in the past Jan.
Maybe the Delta virus is less deadly.
Maybe the vaccination is making the virus less deadly.
Who knows? Instead of crying about how dark it is in the tunnel, how about thinking about that light that we can see at the end of the tunnel and keep on trucking towards it?

[Escape Artist]

New information is always interesting to me, BUT I would also appreciate it if they would give the positive along with the negative.
For instance, a friend of mine was about hysterical about the spike in Covid cases this month. I found it interesting, BUT since he seemed to be hyperventilating I decided to look up a figure that everyone should be able to appreciate. Turns out that the death rate in his state for the whole month was less than ONE DAY in the past Jan.
Maybe the Delta virus is less deadly.
Maybe the vaccination is making the virus less deadly.
Who knows? Instead of crying about how dark it is in the tunnel, how about thinking about that light that we can see at the end of the tunnel and keep on trucking towards it?

Yes, you're correct. The Delta variant is not as virulent/powerful but it is more contagious/easily spread. The scary variant, which apparently has been contained, is the South African variant, which had ravaged Brazil.

[coffeebean]

Good morning to you too, neighbor and friend. Who ****ed in your Wheaties?

Gracie....you are such a card! :)

[jimjamuser]

It was designed to have major breakthrough and the same death rate as the unvaccinated? Sounds reasonable... Now the comments of well there will be clusters etc. It's one of the only studies that shows the facts as they really are and I don't think many people here want to hear how many people are vulnerable to breakthrough after being vaccinated. I think the more major point of this study is stop pointing fingers at the unvaccinated with no proof and be concerned about yourself. You don't need to worry about me because I'm surely not worried about you. Put your mask on and hide in your home because there is a miniscule chance that either jabbed or not you will die.
There IS a simple PROOF about the difference in danger and risk of going UNvaccinated versus vaccinated. In the south-central US (aka land of the UNvaccinated), 99% of those people on ventilators and struggling to BREATHE are the UNvaccinated. Most of those near DEATH would like to be able to go back and take the vaccine - the nurses have quoted, "I am very sorry, but it is too late"! Reference Dr. Hoteze of Baylor U. and Dr. Vin Gupta and many other medical experts that have been interviewed about this subject for, at least, the last 2 weeks!

I don't understand the reluctance to accept Science and information that saves lives, both mine and yours. One Washington insider from the south-central US recently went so far as to laugh about Science in general. That could never have happened in the 1960s when Americans were PROUD that the US had caught up with the Russians in rocket and satellite launching. No one LAUGHED at Science then. Are there burkas in the future for all US women - back to the dark ages? What happened to America? Recently, America lost a Pentagon "war games" exercise to both Russia and China. When will the downside stop?

[Velvet]

New information is always interesting to me, BUT I would also appreciate it if they would give the positive along with the negative.
For instance, a friend of mine was about hysterical about the spike in Covid cases this month. I found it interesting, BUT since he seemed to be hyperventilating I decided to look up a figure that everyone should be able to appreciate. Turns out that the death rate in his state for the whole month was less than ONE DAY in the past Jan.
Maybe the Delta virus is less deadly.
Maybe the vaccination is making the virus less deadly.
Who knows? Instead of crying about how dark it is in the tunnel, how about thinking about that light that we can see at the end of the tunnel and keep on trucking towards it?

Yes, but what bothers me is not necessarily dying. Once you’re gone, you’re gone. It is the long Covid which can occur after mild illness too. Quality of life. That is what scares me.

[coffeebean]

Agree!
“CDC recently updated estimated infection fatality rates for COVID. Here are the updated survival rates by age group:

0-19: 99.997%
20-49: 99.98%
50-69: 99.5%
70+: 94.6%”

Yet here we go again with vaccinated people masking up, discussions of schools possibly not opening up, and I guess next up are the business closures and churches again??? This is nuts!

Simple solution......everyone eligible for vaccination should get themselves vaccinated. I would bet real money that if that were to be accomplished in this country, we would not be looking down the nose at lockdowns or masking for the masses. I blame the anti-vaxxers, hesitant- vaxxers and those fake religious exemptions vaxxers for this mess.

[coffeebean]

She IS superior (mentally)… even if she does come across a little ascorbic at times. Some people are born with more etc. than others…. LOL ….Been where you’re at though, I get it.

OBB has a way with words and can give it to the best of 'em. I LOVE her delivery, candor and most of her her exquisite sarcasm.

[coffeebean]

New information is always interesting to me, BUT I would also appreciate it if they would give the positive along with the negative.
For instance, a friend of mine was about hysterical about the spike in Covid cases this month. I found it interesting, BUT since he seemed to be hyperventilating I decided to look up a figure that everyone should be able to appreciate. Turns out that the death rate in his state for the whole month was less than ONE DAY in the past Jan.
Maybe the Delta virus is less deadly.
Maybe the vaccination is making the virus less deadly.
Who knows? Instead of crying about how dark it is in the tunnel, how about thinking about that light that we can see at the end of the tunnel and keep on trucking towards it?

WOW......such an upbeat sentiment from you. Thank you.

[coffeebean]

Yes, but what bothers me is not necessarily dying. Once you’re gone, you’re gone. It is the long Covid which can occur after mild illness too. Quality of life. That is what scares me.

Speaking of the Covid long haul side effects..........anyone know if fully vaccinated people who get infected then recover suffer long haul effects?

[Byte1]

Yes, but what bothers me is not necessarily dying. Once you’re gone, you’re gone. It is the long Covid which can occur after mild illness too. Quality of life. That is what scares me.

Tell me that you are not going to allow fear to rule your life this far into your tenure? There are too many "what if's" in this lifetime to bother wasting time on things that haven't happened yet. Do your best to prepare and leave the rest of the worrying up to GOD. Just my opinion.

[Byte1]

Speaking of the Covid long haul side effects..........anyone know if fully vaccinated people who get infected then recover suffer long haul effects?

Good question! And interesting, compared to all the hysteria we get on here every time some new information is presented. I wonder if maybe the "long haul effects" might be more serious in conjunction with how serious the infection suffered. Perhaps, the "effects" might be lighter or even non-existent in those that have been vaccinated and infected? Just my speculation. We seem to have a few "experts" on here that I am sure will enlighten us with their experience related to contagious diseases.

[John41]

I feel terrible for the good people of Australia under the gun of military now. The authoritism does not match

Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin

[Byte1]

Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin

That's a good reminder to all of those that wish our gov to mandate everything FOR us.

[Escape Artist]

Yes, but what bothers me is not necessarily dying. Once you’re gone, you’re gone. It is the long Covid which can occur after mild illness too. Quality of life. That is what scares me.

A lot of viruses "come back" like chicken pox/shingles. Many virus strains sequester in your body for many years and screw up your immune system like Guillan-Barre and Epstein-Barr syndromes, fibromyalgia, Lyme Disease (which they should hurry up and find a cure/prevention for because it has destroyed so many lives of people I know).

[kenoc7]

cue all the CDC and Fauci hating replies. no matter what the facts, many choose not to believe them. people fail to understand that a virus changes....so what was said a month ago may not be the same as today. the only way to get rid of it is to stop providing hosts.
A century ago, balancing the tension between individual liberties and public safety, the Supreme Court upheld the ability of state and local governments to enforce mandatory vaccination laws. “In every well-ordered society charged with the duty of conserving the safety of its members,” wrote Justice John Marshall Harlan, “the rights of the individual … may at times, under the pressure of great dangers, be subjected to such restraint, to be enforced by reasonable regulations, as the safety of the general public may demand.”

[jimjamuser]

I can't tell what you are more mad at...the immigrants for coming in, or that they aren't vaccinated. Maybe they can't get the vaccine because they need to show proof of citizenship, which of course they don't have. The circle continues.
So maybe, instead of bit#$ing that they are here w/o a vaccine, yet happy they are doing the hot roofing jobs, the employer- and I use that term loosely- should provide the service of a vaccine. Of course there is just something not right about this suggestion, it would certainly solve the problem.
I agree, but I would like to add. US citizens will do ANY job today - IF they are paid enough. Science is on the verge of having A.I. AND ROBOTICS that can do ANY dangerous or difficult job. ALL these legal AND illegal worker-type immigrants will be UNNEEDED and unemployed in 40 years. That will cause social problems then. Why is the US so BAD at long-term planning?

[Escape Artist]

A century ago, balancing the tension between individual liberties and public safety, the Supreme Court upheld the ability of state and local governments to enforce mandatory vaccination laws. “In every well-ordered society charged with the duty of conserving the safety of its members,” wrote Justice John Marshall Harlan, “the rights of the individual … may at times, under the pressure of great dangers, be subjected to such restraint, to be enforced by reasonable regulations, as the safety of the general public may demand.”

I suppose that's why public schools can mandate vaccines for students as a prerequisite for enrollment. Even before COVID, parents were skirting around the vaccination requirements claiming religious exemption. Some states tightened up their laws because they were seeing big outbreaks of whooping cough and measles, dangerous diseases for some, especially the former.

[jimjamuser]

Yes, you're correct. The Delta variant is not as virulent/powerful but it is more contagious/easily spread. The scary variant, which apparently has been contained, is the South African variant, which had ravaged Brazil.
The most recent CDC findings are that DELTA is likely MORE deadly than past US variants. That is the whole reason that they recommended increased mask-wearing indoors and outdoors if in large, close groups. It is affecting younger people more.

[Papa_lecki]

Agree!
“CDC recently updated estimated infection fatality rates for COVID. Here are the updated survival rates by age group:

0-19: 99.997%
20-49: 99.98%
50-69: 99.5%
70+: 94.6%”

Yet here we go again with vaccinated people masking up, discussions of schools possibly not opening up, and I guess next up are the business closures and churches again??? This is nuts!

And compare that to Smallpox, which has a 30% mortality rate

[jimjamuser]

Yes, but what bothers me is not necessarily dying. Once you’re gone, you’re gone. It is the long Covid which can occur after mild illness too. Quality of life. That is what scares me.
Agree that "Quality of Life" should be the yardstick for society. Public health is part of the quality of life and the CDC is an important part of public health.

[jimjamuser]

Speaking of the Covid long haul side effects..........anyone know if fully vaccinated people who get infected then recover suffer long haul effects?
Young children MIGHT (?) have long-term neurological problems since that has been established as a problem for children with symptomatic CV and may be worse with the Delta variant? There is probably continuing study about that possibility. I am SURE that vaccination makes that much less likely!

[Escape Artist]

The most recent CDC findings are that DELTA is likely MORE deadly than past US variants. That is the whole reason that they recommended increased mask-wearing indoors and outdoors if in large, close groups. It is affecting younger people more.

They said it's more transmissable and those who are diagnosed with it have higher viral loads but there is no evidence they get any sicker. At any rate, I'm sure there will be more variants coming down the pike. Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche, a leading European viriologist, warned against mass vaccinations in the middle of a pandemic because it would create dangerous variants.

[jimjamuser]

A lot of viruses "come back" like chicken pox/shingles. Many virus strains sequester in your body for many years and screw up your immune system like Guillan-Barre and Epstein-Barr syndromes, fibromyalgia, Lyme Disease (which they should hurry up and find a cure/prevention for because it has destroyed so many lives of people I know).
Good point.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

New information is always interesting to me, BUT I would also appreciate it if they would give the positive along with the negative.
For instance, a friend of mine was about hysterical about the spike in Covid cases this month. I found it interesting, BUT since he seemed to be hyperventilating I decided to look up a figure that everyone should be able to appreciate. Turns out that the death rate in his state for the whole month was less than ONE DAY in the past Jan.
Maybe the Delta virus is less deadly.
Maybe the vaccination is making the virus less deadly.
Who knows? Instead of crying about how dark it is in the tunnel, how about thinking about that light that we can see at the end of the tunnel and keep on trucking towards it?

There has always been a HUGE loud honking enormous obnoxiously sickly sweet overbearing positive, that has been utterly rejected by the anti-vaxxers and anti-maskers:

The vaccines, masks, hand-washing, and social distancing can all...
(say it with me, kids)
(drumroll)

REDUCE RISK.

That's right. These simple steps can reduce your risk of dying to a disease that causes you to choke to death on your own mucus.

But wait, there's more!

With these handy dandy steps, you will also reduce your risk of surviving that disease, but living with permanent lung and/or heart scarring for the rest of your life!

And that's not all!

Get these simple solutions now, and we'll toss in a reduced risk of spreading the disease to your loved ones, at no extra cost!


See? Awesome news. Now watch the deniers deny it, and blame politics.

[SkBlogW]

The only people who should not WANT to vaccinate, are people who are not eligible to vaccinate. Medically unable to handle it, and kids under 12. Everyone else should be lining up and eagerly taking the "jab," as the anti-vaxxer conspiracy theorists call it.

Whoa horsey

I think you are forgetting about 34 million Americans (plus millions more asymptomatics) who have had covid and have immunity which is possibly stronger and more lasting than that given by the vaccine. CDC states that reinfections are very rare. All the news seems to be about vaccinated people catching Delta, we are not hearing about lots of covid survivors catching Delta.

If I was younger and had no serious health problems and already had covid, I'd probably decline the shots, especially seeing that the Delta can breakthrough the vaccine. If I was older, had health problems and already had covid, I'd probably get the shots.

Lasting immunity found after recovery from COVID-19 | National Institutes of Health (NIH) (https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/lasting-immunity-found-after-recovery-covid-19)

[Two Bills]

There has always been a HUGE loud honking enormous obnoxiously sickly sweet overbearing positive, that has been utterly rejected by the anti-vaxxers and anti-maskers:

The vaccines, masks, hand-washing, and social distancing can all...
(say it with me, kids)
(drumroll)

REDUCE RISK.

That's right. These simple steps can reduce your risk of dying to a disease that causes you to choke to death on your own mucus.

But wait, there's more!

With these handy dandy steps, you will also reduce your risk of surviving that disease, but living with permanent lung and/or heart scarring for the rest of your life!

And that's not all!

Get these simple solutions now, and we'll toss in a reduced risk of spreading the disease to your loved ones, at no extra cost!


See? Awesome news. Now watch the deniers deny it, and blame politics.

Love it!:boxing2:

[Escape Artist]

I'm curious about something: if the study was done in Cape Cod after a super spreader event, i.e. a beach party, which is outdoors, and even those who had been vaccinated contracted the Delta variant of COVID, then are large outdoor gatherings risky even if they ask for proof of vaccinations and/or negative tests?

I thought the concern was over indoor events but this study seems to say that any large gathering of people is problematic. So does that mean those who attend a concert or sporting event, like a baseball game in a large stadium with people yelling and cheering in close proximity to one another, intermingling on the concourse, etc. should wear masks even though they are vaccinated and outdoors?

[jimjamuser]

They said it's more transmissable and those who are diagnosed with it have higher viral loads but there is no evidence they get any sicker. At any rate, I'm sure there will be more variants coming down the pike. Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche, a leading European viriologist, warned against mass vaccinations in the middle of a pandemic because it would create dangerous variants.
Today there are at least 3 other variants now in the US. One named "Columbian" is, I believe, in Miami. And one in California. And a 3rd in the US. And yes, I saw this from an expert epidemiologist on TV. And no sorry, I don't have a link for everything.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

I'm curious about something: if the study was done in Cape Cod after a super spreader event, i.e. a beach party, which is outdoors, and even those who had been vaccinated contracted the Delta variant of COVID, then are large outdoor gatherings risky even if they ask for proof of vaccinations and/or negative tests?

I thought the concern was over indoor events but this study seems to say that any large gathering of people is problematic. So does that mean those who attend a concert or sporting event, like a baseball game in a large stadium with people yelling and cheering in close proximity to one another, intermingling on the concourse, etc. should wear masks even though they are vaccinated and outdoors?

This is all about risk.

If you're up close and personal with someone, you have a higher risk of spreading the disease, or catching the disease, than if you are at a safe social distance.

Masks can reduce the risk further.

Vaccination, SO FAR, can reduce the risk further.

Having already had COVID-19, SO FAR - can reduce the risk further.

The "so far" is because we're dealing with "what is, currently." We are dealing with the delta version which is showing more contagious than the virus that the vaccine was designed to work against.

If there are more mutations, we have no way to predict what those mutations will do. They MIGHT be less powerful. Or they might become resistant completely to the vaccines, and kill millions. We just don't know.

That's why "risk reduction" is important. It's not prevention. It's reducing risk.

[jimjamuser]

i'm curious about something: If the study was done in cape cod after a super spreader event, i.e. A beach party, which is outdoors, and even those who had been vaccinated contracted the delta variant of covid, then are large outdoor gatherings risky even if they ask for proof of vaccinations and/or negative tests?

I thought the concern was over indoor events but this study seems to say that any large gathering of people is problematic. So does that mean those who attend a concert or sporting event, like a baseball game in a large stadium with people yelling and cheering in close proximity to one another, intermingling on the concourse, etc. Should wear masks even though they are vaccinated and outdoors?
yes!

[Topspinmo]

And no mention of cases at the southern border. iCE estimates 1.7 million illegal aliens will cross the southern border this year which is more than the state of Vermont. And Fauci says it’s not his problem.


And how many crossing that don’t get counted? IMO probably twice that amount?

[Topspinmo]

I'm curious about something: if the study was done in Cape Cod after a super spreader event, i.e. a beach party, which is outdoors, and even those who had been vaccinated contracted the Delta variant of COVID, then are large outdoor gatherings risky even if they ask for proof of vaccinations and/or negative tests?

I thought the concern was over indoor events but this study seems to say that any large gathering of people is problematic. So does that mean those who attend a concert or sporting event, like a baseball game in a large stadium with people yelling and cheering in close proximity to one another, intermingling on the concourse, etc. should wear masks even though they are vaccinated and outdoors?

They all went indoors at some point. Even using the John They had to touch door and anything else inside. Not to mention when somebody couched and it lingers in air in confined space?

[Velvet]

Tell me that you are not going to allow fear to rule your life this far into your tenure? There are too many "what if's" in this lifetime to bother wasting time on things that haven't happened yet. Do your best to prepare and leave the rest of the worrying up to GOD. Just my opinion.

Of course fear does not rule my life. That would be no fun!

But there are different kinds of fears, in my opinion. One is unjustified fear; fear of something not likely to happen, or something imagined, paranoia. Damnation is the fear of your own shadow. And the other is self preservation fear, rational fear, such as stepping out of the way of a charging bull.

[Topspinmo]

Does anybody know the village bubble vaccinated rate? I guessing is well above national average? Like in 80 to 90 precent range? Maybe some one should start poll who vaccinated and who’s not? That way if we know numbers stop throwing stones from one side to other?

[drducat]

They said it's more transmissable and those who are diagnosed with it have higher viral loads but there is no evidence they get any sicker. At any rate, I'm sure there will be more variants coming down the pike. Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche, a leading European viriologist, warned against mass vaccinations in the middle of a pandemic because it would create dangerous variants.

You mean this guy?

Expert in his field.....Not like Fauci at all.....

Vaccine Expert Gives "Final Warning" STOP All Mass COVID Vaccinations Immediately or face unleashing incurable, deadly, unstoppable wave of disease

Hal Turner Radio Show - Vaccine Expert Gives "Final Warning" STOP All Mass COVID Vaccinations Immediately or face unleashing incurable, deadly, unstoppable wave of disease (https://halturnerradioshow.com/index.php/en/news-page/world/vaccine-expert-gives-final-warning-stop-all-mass-covid-vaccinations-immediately-or-face-unleashing-incurable-deadly-unstoppable-wave-of-disease)

[Escape Artist]

yes!

Most stadiums are back to full capacity and I'm not sure governors in some states, even in places like CA, are going to be so quick to pull the trigger on this. California has already mandated masks for kids in school this fall but haven't heard anything about large gatherings of adults who are the ones that spread it the most.

[Escape Artist]

You mean this guy?

Expert in his field.....Not like Fauci at all.....

Vaccine Expert Gives "Final Warning" STOP All Mass COVID Vaccinations Immediately or face unleashing incurable, deadly, unstoppable wave of disease

Hal Turner Radio Show - Vaccine Expert Gives "Final Warning" STOP All Mass COVID Vaccinations Immediately or face unleashing incurable, deadly, unstoppable wave of disease (https://halturnerradioshow.com/index.php/en/news-page/world/vaccine-expert-gives-final-warning-stop-all-mass-covid-vaccinations-immediately-or-face-unleashing-incurable-deadly-unstoppable-wave-of-disease)

Well, if he's like Fauci it makes him and his warnings all the more believable. He's a prominent virologist and not an anti-vaxxer. He embraces the mRNA vaccines and thinks they are great, but should not be used in this manner. I think we are seeing his warnings, which he gave in the spring, come to fruition.

[drducat]

Well, if he's like Fauci it makes him and his warnings all the more believable. He's a prominent virologist and not an anti-vaxxer. He embraces the mRNA vaccines and thinks they are great, but should not be used in this manner. I think we are seeing his warnings, which he gave in the spring, come to fruition.

Agreed!:clap2:

[coffeebean]

Good question! And interesting, compared to all the hysteria we get on here every time some new information is presented. I wonder if maybe the "long haul effects" might be more serious in conjunction with how serious the infection suffered. Perhaps, the "effects" might be lighter or even non-existent in those that have been vaccinated and infected? Just my speculation. We seem to have a few "experts" on here that I am sure will enlighten us with their experience related to contagious diseases.

The reason I ask is because those who have been suffering from Covid long haul effects seem to have some, if not COMPLETE relief from those effects AFTER they get vaccinated. There are several articles that discuss this "phenomenon".

[coffeebean]

So you are thinking your mask protected YOU?????

And I thought that ship had sailed over a year ago.

Agree. Anyone at this point who honestly thinks their mask is protecting them has not been listening (for over a year) UNLESS their mask is an N95 or equivalent mask. In that case, anyone claiming their mask protects them should always include the type of protective mask they are wearing.

[coffeebean]

I suppose that's why public schools can mandate vaccines for students as a prerequisite for enrollment. Even before COVID, parents were skirting around the vaccination requirements claiming religious exemption. Some states tightened up their laws because they were seeing big outbreaks of whooping cough and measles, dangerous diseases for some, especially the former.

A bunch of hooey, if you ask me! AKA a crock of $h!t. (Yes, I'm from NY).

[coffeebean]

The most recent CDC findings are that DELTA is likely MORE deadly than past US variants. That is the whole reason that they recommended increased mask-wearing indoors and outdoors if in large, close groups. It is affecting younger people more.

That is what I'm hearing over and over and over on my MSM television news sources. Funny, that is NOT what I'm reading over and over and over on this and other forums. Hmmmmm..... what to believe???????

[coffeebean]

There has always been a HUGE loud honking enormous obnoxiously sickly sweet overbearing positive, that has been utterly rejected by the anti-vaxxers and anti-maskers:

The vaccines, masks, hand-washing, and social distancing can all...
(say it with me, kids)
(drumroll)

REDUCE RISK.

That's right. These simple steps can reduce your risk of dying to a disease that causes you to choke to death on your own mucus.

But wait, there's more!

With these handy dandy steps, you will also reduce your risk of surviving that disease, but living with permanent lung and/or heart scarring for the rest of your life!

And that's not all!

Get these simple solutions now, and we'll toss in a reduced risk of spreading the disease to your loved ones, at no extra cost!


See? Awesome news. Now watch the deniers deny it, and blame politics.

RIP, Ron Popeil.

[coffeebean]

I'm curious about something: if the study was done in Cape Cod after a super spreader event, i.e. a beach party, which is outdoors, and even those who had been vaccinated contracted the Delta variant of COVID, then are large outdoor gatherings risky even if they ask for proof of vaccinations and/or negative tests?

I thought the concern was over indoor events but this study seems to say that any large gathering of people is problematic. So does that mean those who attend a concert or sporting event, like a baseball game in a large stadium with people yelling and cheering in close proximity to one another, intermingling on the concourse, etc. should wear masks even though they are vaccinated and outdoors?

That is not what I'm seeing on my television when watching the MLB and other sports. I wonder if that is going to come to a screeching halt now that fans are allowed back in the stadiums and arenas.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Does anybody know the village bubble vaccinated rate? I guessing is well above national average? Like in 80 to 90 precent range? Maybe some one should start poll who vaccinated and who’s not? That way if we know numbers stop throwing stones from one side to other?

I have seen the number 70% tossed about here, but I have not verified it.

Frankly, I expected it to be lower than that. If it is 70% that is great, if more, as you suggest, that would be even better. In my not so humble opinion.

[coffeebean]

Does anybody know the village bubble vaccinated rate? I guessing is well above national average? Like in 80 to 90 precent range? Maybe some one should start poll who vaccinated and who’s not? That way if we know numbers stop throwing stones from one side to other?

Yet, that map that shows how high the transmission rate is has all of Florida's counties solid red, including Sumter County. I would think at least the county that has the most amount of seniors in the state of Florida wouldn't quite be solid red. I'm a bit disappointed in that map, to be honest. I've felt all along that we in The Villages are experiencing a higher vaccination rate than the rest of the state.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Agree. Anyone at this point who honestly thinks their mask is protecting them has not been listening (for over a year) UNLESS their mask is an N95 or equivalent mask. In that case, anyone claiming their mask protects them should always include the type of protective mask they are wearing.

Very true. And even then we have to be careful saying "the mask protects you". Since so many like to think/speak in absolutes. It does NOT absolutely protect you 100%. It helps.

Also, it is extremely important for the mask to fit properly to seal around the edges. Otherwise, no joy. But, even with a perfect fit, it is not perfect protection, it helps. But, every little bit helps.

[coffeebean]

You mean this guy?

Expert in his field.....Not like Fauci at all.....

Vaccine Expert Gives "Final Warning" STOP All Mass COVID Vaccinations Immediately or face unleashing incurable, deadly, unstoppable wave of disease

Hal Turner Radio Show - Vaccine Expert Gives "Final Warning" STOP All Mass COVID Vaccinations Immediately or face unleashing incurable, deadly, unstoppable wave of disease (https://halturnerradioshow.com/index.php/en/news-page/world/vaccine-expert-gives-final-warning-stop-all-mass-covid-vaccinations-immediately-or-face-unleashing-incurable-deadly-unstoppable-wave-of-disease)

I'm no expert but that makes absolutely no sense at all.

[coffeebean]

Well, if he's like Fauci it makes him and his warnings all the more believable. He's a prominent virologist and not an anti-vaxxer. He embraces the mRNA vaccines and thinks they are great, but should not be used in this manner. I think we are seeing his warnings, which he gave in the spring, come to fruition.
No, what we are seeing now is the anti-vaxxer movement not allowing enough people to get vaccinated and stop these variants. Again, I'm no expert but that just seems to make more sense to me. I still blame the anti-vaxxer movement for the mess we are all in.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Yet, that map that shows how high the transmission rate is has all of Florida's counties solid red, including Sumter County. I would think at least the county that has the most amount of seniors in the state of Florida wouldn't quite be solid red. I'm a bit disappointed in that map, to be honest. I've felt all along that we in The Villages are experiencing a higher vaccination rate than the rest of the state.

That is why in the other thread I said the news from the CDC was not as good as we (I) had hoped. There is evidence that the DELTA has a fairly high breakthrough rate. It appears from what I read at CDC that the vaccine is about 80% effective against DELTA. But, DELTA is a lot more contagious than the original, so that 20% not effective can result in a LOT of infections. But, the vaccination does reduce the chances of serious complications and/or having to go to the hospital.

Also, that 80% is based on a very limited sampling of data, and could change as more cases are reported and the CDC has more data to work with.

So, the vaccine is not as good against DELTA as the original, so a lot more cases showing up, but a lot better than nothing.

Also, a lot of people, like me got their vaccination 4 months ago or so, and so the effectiveness is starting to wane.

EDIT: Also, vaccinations are less effective in seniors than younger folks. This appears to be WRONG. A recent study in Israel shows that seniors are as protected as younger people by the vaccines.

So, seniors need to get boosters sooner and be more careful.

[GrumpyOldMan]

No, what we are seeing now is the anti-vaxxer movement not allowing enough people to get vaccinated and stop these variants. Again, I'm no expert but that just seems to make more sense to me. I still blame the anti-vaxxer movement for the mess we are all in.

Well, I will go a step further and say that the anti-vax'ers are part of a larger group that are anti-COVIDers. There is a large number of people that still say COVID is no worse than the flu. And refuse to wear masks, refuse to socially distance, and refuse to get vaccinated. Why they feel/believe this I can't say.

[NoMoSno]

Also, a lot of people, like me got their vaccination 4 months ago or so, and so the effectiveness is starting to wane.

Also, vaccinations are less effective in seniors than younger folks.

So, seniors need to get boosters sooner and be more careful.
Got a link to the CDC stating that?
Or is that your "expert" opinion?
Where are you getting your booster?

[drducat]

I'm no expert but that makes absolutely no sense at all.

It makes perfect sense....The vaccinated are contributing to the variants.....He said it along time ago and all his statements are falling true.

[stanley]

I'm no expert but that makes absolutely no sense at all.

Well it wouldn't to someone who's not a expert.
Does anyone ever hear themselves?

[GrumpyOldMan]

Got a link to the CDC stating that?
Or is that your "expert" opinion?
Where are you getting your booster?

I am not and never have claimed to be an expert, I read and post here what I consider to be valid information from what I believe to be credible sources. If I post something in error, and it is pointed out, I am the first to admit it and retract my post and apologize.

I got my vaccination from the VA in Gainesville. I am waiting to hear back from my PCP about when Boosters will be available.

Here is a Lancet article on vaccine effectiveness by age group, It does not support my claim that the vaccination is less effective in seniors: I apologize for that mistake:

Model is adjusted for age group (16–24, 25–34, 35–44, 45–54, 55–64, 65–74, 75–84, and ≥85 years) (https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(21)00947-8/fulltext#%20)

[GrumpyOldMan]

I'm no expert but that makes absolutely no sense at all.

I see no reason to even fact-check a poster that claims the government has approved a vaccine that will destroy our immune systems permanently. If that is TRUE, then we are all up the proverbial creek.

[NoMoSno]

I am not and never have claimed to be an expert, I read and post here what I consider to be valid information from what I believe to be credible sources. If I post something in error, and it is pointed out, I am the first to admit it and retract my post and apologize.

I got my vaccination from the VA in Gainesville. I am waiting to hear back from my PCP about when Boosters will be available.

Here is a Lancet article on vaccine effectiveness by age group, It does not support my claim that the vaccination is less effective in seniors: I apologize for that mistake:

Model is adjusted for age group (16–24, 25–34, 35–44, 45–54, 55–64, 65–74, 75–84, and ≥85 years) (https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(21)00947-8/fulltext#%20)
I was just wondering where you got your valid information from a credible source that your vaccine effectiveness is "waning" after 4 months.

[drducat]

I see no reason to even fact-check a poster that claims the government has approved a vaccine that will destroy our immune systems permanently. If that is TRUE, then we are all up the proverbial creek.

There is nothing to fact check...it is a letter from one of the top vaccine experts in the world.

Besides this poster (me) has never made the claim about our government.

[GrumpyOldMan]

There is nothing to fact check...it is a letter from one of the top vaccine experts in the world.

Besides this poster (me) has never made the claim about our government.

Did you post a post that said the vaccination would permanently destroy our immune systems? I am NOT saying you said it will, did you post a post saying that someone else, an expert, said it will?

[Escape Artist]

I'm no expert but that makes absolutely no sense at all.

The man has a heavy Dutch accent and is difficult to understand. W hat he's saying is that the virus will do what it takes to survive if a vaccine is suddenly introduced which means it will mutate into a new variant which can be even more deadly than the original COVID-19. I think we are seeing this now.

[drducat]

Did you post a post that said the vaccination would permanently destroy our immune systems? I am NOT saying you said it will, did you post a post saying that someone else, an expert, said it will?

I do not recall that....however whom ever did was most likely referring to ADE which is real...not what some fact checkers are saying. Your body over reacts to contacting covid19 and causes a Cytokine Storm....immune response is over reacting.

The letter from Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche is scary stuff and the vaccine was a risk to begin with. Once they found out it does not stay in the muscle of the injection site and it spreads all over, they should have stopped the jab.

[drducat]

The man has a heavy Dutch accent and is difficult to understand. W hat he's saying is that the virus will do what it takes to survive if a vaccine is suddenly introduced which means it will mutate into a new variant which can be even more deadly than the original COVID-19. I think we are seeing this now.

This also....:shocked:

[Escape Artist]

No, what we are seeing now is the anti-vaxxer movement not allowing enough people to get vaccinated and stop these variants. Again, I'm no expert but that just seems to make more sense to me. I still blame the anti-vaxxer movement for the mess we are all in.

There's no "anti-vaxxer movement" and no one is stopping anyone from getting the vaccine. I know people from different walks of life, race/ethnicity, religion, income level, political ideology who do not want to get the vaccine. They have nothing else in common, only that.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

You mean this guy?

Expert in his field.....Not like Fauci at all.....

Vaccine Expert Gives "Final Warning" STOP All Mass COVID Vaccinations Immediately or face unleashing incurable, deadly, unstoppable wave of disease

Hal Turner Radio Show - Vaccine Expert Gives "Final Warning" STOP All Mass COVID Vaccinations Immediately or face unleashing incurable, deadly, unstoppable wave of disease (https://halturnerradioshow.com/index.php/en/news-page/world/vaccine-expert-gives-final-warning-stop-all-mass-covid-vaccinations-immediately-or-face-unleashing-incurable-deadly-unstoppable-wave-of-disease)

This veterinarian's opinion was debunked last March.

Addressing Geert Vanden Bossche’s Claims — Deplatform Disease (https://www.deplatformdisease.com/blog/addressing-geert-vanden-bossches-claims)

I also checked with Snopes, because it's what I always do. I found a link to the letter he wrote, read the entire thing, and noticed he just very conveniently happens to mention that the only prevention for this virus is a vaccine that HE invented. How convenient is that?

Snake oil, meet your salesman.

[GrumpyOldMan]

I was just wondering where you got your valid information from a credible source that your vaccine effectiveness is "waning" after 4 months.

I didn't mean to imply that, I meant we got vaccinations around 4 or 5 month ago, and I do recall that there has been suggestions that we might need to get a booster at 6 months. I will find the article and post it here.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Well, if he's like Fauci it makes him and his warnings all the more believable. He's a prominent virologist and not an anti-vaxxer. He embraces the mRNA vaccines and thinks they are great, but should not be used in this manner. I think we are seeing his warnings, which he gave in the spring, come to fruition.

He's not a prominent virologist.

He's a veterinarian who received his PhD in virology. His actual medical doctorate is in veterinary medicine. He's also prominent only by way of self-promotion. He's not really known for much of anything. I mean he made a big deal about speaking at a LinkdIn event in Ohio. That's the medicine world's equivalent of a motivational speaker at a regional Tupperware meeting.

[GrumpyOldMan]

The man has a heavy Dutch accent and is difficult to understand. W hat he's saying is that the virus will do what it takes to survive if a vaccine is suddenly introduced which means it will mutate into a new variant which can be even more deadly than the original COVID-19. I think we are seeing this now.

I assume you know that explanation is totally nonsense.

Virus's are not sentient. They do not make decisions to suddenly mutate. Mutations are NOT conscious choices, they occur for a number of reasons none of them have to do with being in a hostile environment. Mutations naturally occur in ALL living things all the time.

[jimjamuser]

You mean this guy?

Expert in his field.....Not like Fauci at all.....

Vaccine Expert Gives "Final Warning" STOP All Mass COVID Vaccinations Immediately or face unleashing incurable, deadly, unstoppable wave of disease

Hal Turner Radio Show - Vaccine Expert Gives "Final Warning" STOP All Mass COVID Vaccinations Immediately or face unleashing incurable, deadly, unstoppable wave of disease (https://halturnerradioshow.com/index.php/en/news-page/world/vaccine-expert-gives-final-warning-stop-all-mass-covid-vaccinations-immediately-or-face-unleashing-incurable-deadly-unstoppable-wave-of-disease)
Not impressed!

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

I didn't mean to imply that, I meant we got vaccinations around 4 or 5 month ago, and I do recall that there has been suggestions that we might need to get a booster at 6 months. I will find the article and post it here.

I saw it too.

Here's Pfizer's press release in full:
https://cdn.pfizer.com/pfizercom/2021-07/Delta_Variant_Study_Press_Statement_Final_7.8.21.p df?IPpR1xZjlwvaUMQ9sRn2FkePcBiRPGqw

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Well, I will go a step further and say that the anti-vax'ers are part of a larger group that are anti-COVIDers. There is a large number of people that still say COVID is no worse than the flu. And refuse to wear masks, refuse to socially distance, and refuse to get vaccinated. Why they feel/believe this I can't say.

I can say it. And I do, often. Just not on this forum.

[Escape Artist]

He's not a prominent virologist.

He's a veterinarian who received his PhD in virology. His actual medical doctorate is in veterinary medicine. He's also prominent only by way of self-promotion. He's not really known for much of anything. I mean he made a big deal about speaking at a LinkdIn event in Ohio. That's the medicine world's equivalent of a motivational speaker at a regional Tupperware meeting.

Denigrate him all you want, and if you've looked at Fauci's resume, it's even less credible, but what he predicted came true. When he spoke about this there were no variants, only talk from the CDC about possibly needing a booster later in year if they vaccine's effects wore off.

[GrumpyOldMan]

I was just wondering where you got your valid information from a credible source that your vaccine effectiveness is "waning" after 4 months.

Okay, a little looking revealed that The vaccine company is recommending boosters, Israel is moving forward with boosters, here, we are still studying the idea.

Here is a link to a Yale Medicine article that discusses it, and an issue I had not thought about, the moral issue of should we vaccinate the rest of the world before providing boosters for people already vaccinated. I would prefer to get the rest of the world vaccinated before providing booster shots here. But, I will leave that decision to my PCP.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Denigrate him all you want, and if you've looked at Fauci's resume, it's even less credible, but what he predicted came true. When he spoke about this there were no variants, only talk from the CDC about possibly needing a booster later in year if they vaccine's effects wore off.

Okay, so I will show you Fauci's, you show the vets.

We will be waiting to hear from you.

Fauci Resume (https://www.niaid.nih.gov/about/director)

List of Awards and recognitions (https://www.niaid.nih.gov/director/awards)

[jimjamuser]

That is what I'm hearing over and over and over on my MSM television news sources. Funny, that is NOT what I'm reading over and over and over on this and other forums. Hmmmmm..... what to believe???????
Yes, today in a world overloaded with information sources. Each person must choose wisely where they get their information. it would be my advice that Facebook is the absolute worse place to go to be informed. Use Facebook ONLY for communicating with friends. It is well known that the Facebook software is designed to keep users on their site for as long as possible. FB moves vulnerable people off of a middle-of-the-road position slowly and surely towards the fringes of thought and society - it is like slumming or washing your hands in a sewer - ultimately a sewer of misinformation.

It would be nice if someone wrote a how-to book about a correct way to pick RELIABLE news sources. I feel that many people (as evidenced by this forum) have NOT chosen well.

And this brings us back to the CDC. Some people rail against it. Yet I find it very informative. I know enough Science to know Science changes. And then the CDC changes to give Americans the BEST AVAILABLE and current information. Life changes faster today than it did in the 1960s before information overload. WE older peons have to work harder to change and be open to finding good information. I advise trusting the CDC over trusting Facebook.

[coffeebean]

Very true. And even then we have to be careful saying "the mask protects you". Since so many like to think/speak in absolutes. It does NOT absolutely protect you 100%. It helps.

Also, it is extremely important for the mask to fit properly to seal around the edges. Otherwise, no joy. But, even with a perfect fit, it is not perfect protection, it helps. But, every little bit helps.

N95 masks, with a perfect fit around the face, is supposed to filter out 95% of airborne particles. That is pretty darn good protection.

[drducat]

Okay, a little looking revealed that The vaccine company is recommending boosters, Israel is moving forward with boosters, here, we are still studying the idea.

Here is a link to a Yale Medicine article that discusses it, and an issue I had not thought about, the moral issue of should we vaccinate the rest of the world before providing boosters for people already vaccinated. I would prefer to get the rest of the world vaccinated before providing booster shots here. But, I will leave that decision to my PCP.

And here is a list of possible side effects that can be derived from the vaccine.....Boost after talking to your DR.

[coffeebean]

There's no "anti-vaxxer movement" and no one is stopping anyone from getting the vaccine. I know people from different walks of life, race/ethnicity, religion, income level, political ideology who do not want to get the vaccine. They have nothing else in common, only that.

Believe what you like but there most certainly is an anti-vaxxer movement. This has been going on long before Covid arrived on the scene. Covid has given this anti-vaxxer movement a lot of publicity and it seems to be in our faces at this point.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Yes, today in a world overloaded with information sources. Each person must choose wisely where they get their information. it would be my advice that Facebook is the absolute worse place to go to be informed. Use Facebook ONLY for communicating with friends. It is well known that the Facebook software is designed to keep users on their site for as long as possible. FB moves vulnerable people off of a middle-of-the-road position slowly and surely towards the fringes of thought and society - it is like slumming or washing your hands in a sewer - ultimately a sewer of misinformation.

It would be nice if someone wrote a how-to book about a correct way to pick RELIABLE news sources. I feel that many people (as evidenced by this forum) have NOT chosen well.

And this brings us back to the CDC. Some people rail against it. Yet I find it very informative. I know enough Science to know Science changes. And then the CDC changes to give Americans the BEST AVAILABLE and current information. Life changes faster today than it did in the 1960s before information overload. WE older peons have to work harder to change and be open to finding good information. I advise trusting the CDC over trusting Facebook.

I use facebook primarily to communicate with friends and family. Also to watch cute animal videos.

[drducat]

N95 masks, with a perfect fit around the face, is supposed to filter out 95% of airborne particles. That is pretty darn good protection.

Have you ever used an N95....pretty hard to breath if your moving around much.

[coffeebean]

this veterinarian's opinion was debunked last march.

addressing geert vanden bossche’s claims — deplatform disease (https://www.deplatformdisease.com/blog/addressing-geert-vanden-bossches-claims)

i also checked with snopes, because it's what i always do. I found a link to the letter he wrote, read the entire thing, and noticed he just very conveniently happens to mention that the only prevention for this virus is a vaccine that he invented. How convenient is that?

Snake oil, meet your salesman.

rotflmao!!!

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

There's no "anti-vaxxer movement" and no one is stopping anyone from getting the vaccine. I know people from different walks of life, race/ethnicity, religion, income level, political ideology who do not want to get the vaccine. They have nothing else in common, only that.

OK now I know you are just punking this forum. No anti-vax movement? For serious? There has been a militant, dangerous anti-vax movement ever since there've been vaccinations.

Here's a primer, for those who have sincerely been living under a rock for the past 200 years.

[Escape Artist]

Okay, a little looking revealed that The vaccine company is recommending boosters, Israel is moving forward with boosters, here, we are still studying the idea.

Here is a link to a Yale Medicine article that discusses it, and an issue I had not thought about, the moral issue of should we vaccinate the rest of the world before providing boosters for people already vaccinated. I would prefer to get the rest of the world vaccinated before providing booster shots here. But, I will leave that decision to my PCP.

Boosters are going to be a hard sell here without strong evidence that their effectiveness has worn off. And what about the variants? They've had a hard enough time getting people to receive the three vaccines let alone booster shots!

[GrumpyOldMan]

Have you ever used an N95....pretty hard to breath if your moving around much.

It's even harder to breathe when you are dead.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Boosters are going to be a hard sell here without strong evidence that their effectiveness has worn off. And what about the variants? They've had a hard enough time getting people to receive the three vaccines let alone booster shots!

See, I can tell you don't bother to read provided links because your "questions" about booster are addressed in the Yale article. But, you aren't interested, are you?

[coffeebean]

Denigrate him all you want, and if you've looked at Fauci's resume, it's even less credible, but what he predicted came true. When he spoke about this there were no variants, only talk from the CDC about possibly needing a booster later in year if they vaccine's effects wore off.

Variants occur when there are hosts for the virus, not because of vaccinated people. This guy made a prediction that Americans would not get on the vaccine bandwagon, therefore providing this virus with LOTS of hosts. THAT is what has cause these variants, NOT vaccinated people. Sheesh.

[roscoguy]

i can see your point, however, it's not that we HATE fauci. since his hacked emails were released, we know the extent of his truths & falsehoods. how can i possibly trust someone who has his own interests in mind? i don't come into things with preconceived notions, its the persons' behavior that leads me to suspicion

Oh boy, more "hacked emails"!! Gimme!

[coffeebean]

I advise trusting the CDC over trusting Facebook.

A no brainer.

[coffeebean]

I use facebook primarily to communicate with friends and family. Also to watch cute animal videos.

I closed my Facebook account years ago. I actually never did use it. Don't ever go on it.

[coffeebean]

Have you ever used an N95....pretty hard to breath if your moving around much.

Nope, never have. Anyone who wants protection from this virus and does not want their breathing hampered by an N95 mask should get themselves vaccinated. No worries about not being able to breath!

[Escape Artist]

OK now I know you are just punking this forum. No anti-vax movement? For serious? There has been a militant, dangerous anti-vax movement ever since there've been vaccinations.

Here's a primer, for those who have sincerely been living under a rock for the past 200 years.

There's anti-vaxxers for regular vaccines (those who think they are filled with dangerous chemicals which will give their child allergies, autism, etc.) and those who are anti-COVID/gene therapy. Two different scenarios. The 2nd group is a much more diverse crowd, spanning age groups, income and education levels and race and ethnicity. For instance, Latinos are very anti-Covid vax but not for regular childhood vaccines. Something about the mRNA making men impotent or sterile...hmmmm.

[coffeebean]

It's even harder to breathe when you are dead.

You have a very good point there.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Variants occur when there are hosts for the virus, not because of vaccinated people. This guy made a prediction that Americans would not get on the vaccine bandwagon, therefore providing this virus with LOTS of hosts. THAT is what has cause these variants, NOT vaccinated people. Sheesh.

I totally disagree with the guy but I think the point is being misrepresented. If you are vaccinated against say the original virus. Then, your immune system will kill clones of the original virus, and any variants that are similar. That is what it is supposed to do.

So, what happens if there is a mutation, in your body, that your immune system doesn't recognize? Well, it will not get killed.

The problem is what happens next. I don't know. I am not an expert.

But, think about this.

Every year most (many?) people get influenza vaccinations. So, why are we not all dead from mutated mega influenza viruses resulting from being vaccinated?

Every year millions of children get vaccinated against various viruses. Why aren't we all dead from polio, chickenpox, etc. as a result of a mega monster mutating because of the vaccinations?

So, who do we believe, a Vet that says our entire immune system has been destroyed if we got vaccinated (which means EVERYONE that has been vaccinated will soon be DEAD - you can't live without an immune system outside of a sterile bubble).

Or scientists that have worked their entire lives in this field, and have minor achievements like eradicating polio, chickenpox, measle, et al.

Inquiring minds want to know...

[Escape Artist]

I totally disagree with the guy but I think the point is being misrepresented. If you are vaccinated against say the original virus. Then, your immune system will kill clones of the original virus, and any variants that are similar. That is what it is supposed to do.

So, what happens if there is a mutation, in your body, that your immune system doesn't recognize? Well, it will not get killed.

The problem is what happens next. I don't know. I am not an expert.

But, think about this.

Every year most (many?) people get influenza vaccinations. So, why are we not all dead from mutated mega influenza viruses resulting from being vaccinated?

Every year millions of children get vaccinated against various viruses. Why aren't we all dead from polio, chickenpox, etc. as a result of a mega monster mutating because of the vaccinations?

So, who do we believe, a Vet that says our entire immune system has been destroyed if we got vaccinated (which means EVERYONE that has been vaccinated will soon be DEAD - you can't live without an immune system outside of a sterile bubble).

Or scientists that have worked their entire lives in this field, and have minor achievements like eradicating polio, chickenpox, measle, et al.

Inquiring minds want to know...

Because maybe much is still unknown about this virus because it was made in a lab? That's why a traditional vaccine couldn't be created for it so they had to go the experimental route and take some chances. Maybe the virus won't behave in the same way a virus from a naturally occurring source would?

Actually, no maybes about it. Those are actual reasons why.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Because maybe much is still unknown about this virus because it was made in a lab? That's why a traditional vaccine couldn't be created for it so they had to go the experimental route and take some chances. Maybe the virus won't behave in the same way a virus from a naturally occurring source would?

Actually, no maybes about it. Those are actual reasons why.

Any proof, I don't think so. But, sure go for it, if that makes you feel good.

[Spalumbos62]

I totally disagree with the guy but I think the point is being misrepresented. If you are vaccinated against say the original virus. Then, your immune system will kill clones of the original virus, and any variants that are similar. That is what it is supposed to do.

So, what happens if there is a mutation, in your body, that your immune system doesn't recognize? Well, it will not get killed.

The problem is what happens next. I don't know. I am not an expert.

But, think about this.

Every year most (many?) people get influenza vaccinations. So, why are we not all dead from mutated mega influenza viruses resulting from being vaccinated?

Every year millions of children get vaccinated against various viruses. Why aren't we all dead from polio, chickenpox, etc. as a result of a mega monster mutating because of the vaccinations?

So, who do we believe, a Vet that says our entire immune system has been destroyed if we got vaccinated (which means EVERYONE that has been vaccinated will soon be DEAD - you can't live without an immune system outside of a sterile bubble).

Or scientists that have worked their entire lives in this field, and have minor achievements like eradicating polio, chickenpox, measle, et al.

Inquiring minds want to know...

I guess it really doesn't matter what happens next because as of tonight FL is at over 21,000 new cases today, up from 17,000 yesterday. Regardless what DeSantis says, Disney is asking people to mask, and making employees get the vac in order to work.... same with SeaWorld and just about all the major family fun spots in that area.
So thank God, even with all the whiners that say the government can't make me do it...
The people/business's have spoken...you do the right thing....or get out.....FINALLY!!!!

[GrumpyOldMan]

I guess it really doesn't matter what happens next because as of tonight FL is at over 21,000 new cases today, up from 17,000 yesterday. Regardless what DeSantis says, Disney is asking people to mask, and making employees get the vac in order to work.... same with SeaWorld and just about all the major family fun spots in that area.
So thank God, even with all the whiners that say the government can't make me do it...
The people/business's have spoken...you do the right thing....or get out.....FINALLY!!!!

Sadly, viruses grow at exponential rates, without intervention we will be back where we were six months ago soon. At some point all this BS being spewed will stop being free speech and start being "yelling fire in a theater". People are dying, at least partially because of the massive misinformation.

[Escape Artist]

I guess it really doesn't matter what happens next because as of tonight FL is at over 21,000 new cases today, up from 17,000 yesterday. Regardless what DeSantis says, Disney is asking people to mask, and making employees get the vac in order to work.... same with SeaWorld and just about all the major family fun spots in that area.
So thank God, even with all the whiners that say the government can't make me do it...
The people/business's have spoken...you do the right thing....or get out.....FINALLY!!!!

I don't know if they should tell their workers to get lost. It's hard to get low-wage employees nowadays. Maybe they should offer incentives and bonuses instead.

[Velvet]

Have you ever used an N95....pretty hard to breath if your moving around much.

I’ve always used N95 masks and the secret is good fit and comfort. Just tight enough. The materials used in N95 can vary too. That makes a difference in breathability. I came out of a store and waited for a friend outside. I noticed a few people looked at me. Then I realized I still had the mask on. I’m so used to it, I forgot.

[stanley]

Maybe they should offer incentives and bonuses instead.

That would never work, they need to compete with the government....more incentives not to work ya know.

[GrumpyOldMan]

That would never work, they need to compete with the government....more incentives not to work ya know.

it seems you are pretty much against anything and everything anyone suggests. What do you propose is a way forward?

[stanley]

it seems you are pretty much against anything and everything anyone suggests. What do you propose is a way forward?

Please provide proof that I'm "against anything and everything anyone suggests".
You don't know me to paint me with such a broad brush.

[Malsua]

Any proof, I don't think so. But, sure go for it, if that makes you feel good.

Actually, if you understand how gain of function research has occurred in the past, you would know that they insert a polybasic furin cleavage site into a virus. They do this so that a protease can come along and snip the receptor binding domain off the viral genome which allows the viral payload to be inserted into the cell.

There are 13 documented occurrences of this on various other viruses.

They used a polybasic furin cleavage site with a proline, two arginines and an Alanine. PRRA.

PRRA has high affinity for human tissues which is why it is a good insert for gain of function.

PRRA is not found in animal models like bats, pangolins or most of everything that isn't humanized because their systems don't code for a protease like humans do.

There are no bat ancestor genomes with a polybasic furin cleavage site with PRRA. In fact, that probably would not occur in nature because it would make it harder for the virus to propagate in bat tissues.

Sars-Cov2 has a polybasic furin cleavage site PRRA. Is that proof it came from a lab? without someone admitting they did that, no, not exactly. It's a smoking gun though.

It is the exact sequence used in gain of function. We know bat genomes were used at the Wuhan Institute of Virology. We know the Bat lady, Shi was using that exact sequence in gain of function research.

When you are in North America and you hear hoofbeats, you don't think zebras.

[Escape Artist]

Any proof, I don't think so. But, sure go for it, if that makes you feel good.

Swine Flu (H1N1) was declared a pandemic in the spring of 2009. By December of that year they had developed a traditional vaccine and were starting to administer it. That's because Swine Flu was related to other flus that humans get. It had the same components. Not so with COVID. They had to try something new. They're still figuring it out and you can see that in the CDC's backtracking, contradictions, corrections, and do-overs for the past year.

All this new study has done is create more uncertainty, confusion and distrust. Now the unvaccinated think, "why bother getting vaccinated if my old auntie is fully vaxxed and still got it anyway?"

[GrumpyOldMan]

Please provide proof that I'm "against anything and everything anyone suggests".
You don't know me to paint me with such a broad brush.

Just my opinion based on what I read you post. I don't recall very many positive posts. And I said, "pretty much", you left off the qualifier, making it sound worse, again a more negative connotation of what I said.

But, just my opinion, and you are right I don't know you at all, so I can only speak to what I read here. You could be the most positive upbeat person in TV as far as I know.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Swine Flu (H1N1) was declared a pandemic in the spring of 2009. By December of that year they had developed a traditional vaccine and were starting to administer it. That's because Swine Flu was related to other flus that humans get. It had the same components. Not so with COVID. They had to try something new. They're still figuring it out and you can see that in the CDC's backtracking, contradictions, corrections, and do-overs for the past year.

All this new study has done is create more uncertainty, confusion and distrust. Now the unvaccinated think, "why bother getting vaccinated if my old auntie is fully vaxxed and still got it anyway?"

You realize every thing you just wrote is supposition on your part.

I will still trust the experts that actually work in the field of pandemics (on humans) over some stranger on the internet that says every one of the experts is wrong.

[stanley]

You realize every thing you just wrote is supposition on your part.

I will still trust the experts that actually work in the field of pandemics (on humans) over some stranger on the internet that says every one of the experts is wrong.

What is the "supposition" on what was posted about H1N1?

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Please provide proof that I'm "against anything and everything anyone suggests".
You don't know me to paint me with such a broad brush.

Please provide proof that he doesn't know you to paint you with such a broad brush.
Please provide proof that he wants to paint you at all.
Please provide proof that he has a brush.

Your turn.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Swine Flu (H1N1) was declared a pandemic in the spring of 2009. By December of that year they had developed a traditional vaccine and were starting to administer it. That's because Swine Flu was related to other flus that humans get. It had the same components. Not so with COVID. They had to try something new. They're still figuring it out and you can see that in the CDC's backtracking, contradictions, corrections, and do-overs for the past year.

All this new study has done is create more uncertainty, confusion and distrust. Now the unvaccinated think, "why bother getting vaccinated if my old auntie is fully vaxxed and still got it anyway?"

Covid is not an influenza virus. "Flu" is short for "influenza virus." COVID-19 is short for "COronaVIrus Disease."

The veterinarian who wrote his treatise warning against the vaccine - if you were actually paying attention around the time that was written - was mostly referring to the concept that in order for a vaccine against COVID-19 to be effective, MOST people need to be vaccinated. There was no way to develop, AND test, AND manufacture, AND distribute a vaccine for COVID-19 in time for "most" people to be immunized.

That meant the virus would have had a LOT of time to mutate.

He was absolutely spot-on right, in that. But it wasn't because people COULDN'T vaccinate in time. It's because they CHOSE not to vaccinate in time.

The warnings were coming from everywhere - you get vaccinated as soon as you are eligible, as soon as the vaccine is available to you. If you don't, the virus can mutate.

Too many people said "screw that, I'll take my chances." And the virus did EXACTLY as predicted: it mutated.

If people took the "herd immunity" concept more seriously THEN, the virus wouldn't have had the opportunity to mutate NOW.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Covid is not an influenza virus. "Flu" is short for "influenza virus." COVID-19 is short for "COronaVIrus Disease."

The veterinarian who wrote his treatise warning against the vaccine - if you were actually paying attention around the time that was written - was mostly referring to the concept that in order for a vaccine against COVID-19 to be effective, MOST people need to be vaccinated. There was no way to develop, AND test, AND manufacture, AND distribute a vaccine for COVID-19 in time for "most" people to be immunized.

That meant the virus would have had a LOT of time to mutate.

He was absolutely spot-on right, in that. But it wasn't because people COULDN'T vaccinate in time. It's because they CHOSE not to vaccinate in time.

The warnings were coming from everywhere - you get vaccinated as soon as you are eligible, as soon as the vaccine is available to you. If you don't, the virus can mutate.

Too many people said "screw that, I'll take my chances." And the virus did EXACTLY as predicted: it mutated.

If people took the "herd immunity" concept more seriously THEN, the virus wouldn't have had the opportunity to mutate NOW.

Thank you, too bad it won't matter.

[Escape Artist]

Covid is not an influenza virus. "Flu" is short for "influenza virus." COVID-19 is short for "COronaVIrus Disease."

The veterinarian who wrote his treatise warning against the vaccine - if you were actually paying attention around the time that was written - was mostly referring to the concept that in order for a vaccine against COVID-19 to be effective, MOST people need to be vaccinated. There was no way to develop, AND test, AND manufacture, AND distribute a vaccine for COVID-19 in time for "most" people to be immunized.

That meant the virus would have had a LOT of time to mutate.

He was absolutely spot-on right, in that. But it wasn't because people COULDN'T vaccinate in time. It's because they CHOSE not to vaccinate in time.

The warnings were coming from everywhere - you get vaccinated as soon as you are eligible, as soon as the vaccine is available to you. If you don't, the virus can mutate.

Too many people said "screw that, I'll take my chances." And the virus did EXACTLY as predicted: it mutated.

If people took the "herd immunity" concept more seriously THEN, the virus wouldn't have had the opportunity to mutate NOW.

The common cold is also a coronavirus but I get your meaning. The way I understood his theory was that because the vaccine was specific to the spike protein in COVID the body's immune response would be vulnerable to not only the variants but other illnesses because the COVID vaccine is so powerful it overwhelms everything else. I don't think we've seen that yet, however, we aren't in cold and flu season.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

The common cold is also a coronavirus but I get your meaning. The way I understood his theory was that because the vaccine was specific to the spike protein in COVID the body's immune response would be vulnerable to not only the variants but other illnesses because the COVID vaccine is so powerful it overwhelms everything else. I don't think we've seen that yet, however, we aren't in cold and flu season.

The whole spike protein thing is overblown, and has been used as a political anti-vax conspiracy to cast blame and deflect. While I don't really understand about spike proteins, I do understand about checking out information sources. If credentialed, known, experienced, published, peer-reviewed, immunologists, virologists, research scientists who are respected *by their peers* all say "yeah that thing you heard? It's just more fox news nonsense" then I'm going to believe them, before I believe Tucker Carlson.

And by "by their peers" I am intentionally excluding people whose opinions of those scientists have no relevance. What a Tucker or Hannity or whoever is on CNN or main-stream-media or some alt-right or anarchy conspiracy website or Dr. Oz or even our President feels about a scientist is not relevant. I don't care about their feelings about science. I care about the respected opinions of respected scientists, about other respected scientists.

In other words, I believe in science, not editorials.

[Escape Artist]

Actually, if you understand how gain of function research has occurred in the past, you would know that they insert a polybasic furin cleavage site into a virus. They do this so that a protease can come along and snip the receptor binding domain off the viral genome which allows the viral payload to be inserted into the cell.

There are 13 documented occurrences of this on various other viruses.

They used a polybasic furin cleavage site with a proline, two arginines and an Alanine. PRRA.

PRRA has high affinity for human tissues which is why it is a good insert for gain of function.

PRRA is not found in animal models like bats, pangolins or most of everything that isn't humanized because their systems don't code for a protease like humans do.

There are no bat ancestor genomes with a polybasic furin cleavage site with PRRA. In fact, that probably would not occur in nature because it would make it harder for the virus to propagate in bat tissues.

Sars-Cov2 has a polybasic furin cleavage site PRRA. Is that proof it came from a lab? without someone admitting they did that, no, not exactly. It's a smoking gun though.

It is the exact sequence used in gain of function. We know bat genomes were used at the Wuhan Institute of Virology. We know the Bat lady, Shi was using that exact sequence in gain of function research.

When you are in North America and you hear hoofbeats, you don't think zebras.

You seem to have a lot of knowledge on the subject. As you probably know, Sars-Cov1 did have an animal intermediary, as did MERS. They've never found the animal this time even though the Chinese claimed they had only to be refuted and exposed by other scientists. The genome sequence needs to be almost as exact match and the closest they ever got was 96%.

The Chinese were present when they did the gain of function research at Univ. of North Carolina lab where they successfully infected HeLa cells (human cells) with horseshoe bat coronavirus. So the Chinese just continued on with it in Wuhan, along with other bioweapons research. Although virus escapes have happened, this was no accident. Not with the timing of it and then the elaborate cover up and lies by the Chinese. As late as mid-January, at least two months after the first COVID case, knowing full well what was happening in their country they still permitted travel abroad.

Nice "business partners", eh?

[GrumpyOldMan]

Round and round we go... back to bioweapons

[stanley]

Please provide proof that he doesn't know you to paint you with such a broad brush.
Please provide proof that he wants to paint you at all.
Please provide proof that he has a brush.

Your turn.

:blahblahblah::blahblahblah::blahblahblah::pray:

[GrumpyOldMan]

I see we hit a new record in Florida - 21,000 cases.

For those that like to use common sense, what does getting a record number of cases while performing half as many tests imply? (We are down from 90,000 tests to 48,000 tests per day)

[GrumpyOldMan]

The seven-day average Vaccines administered are up 26% over the past 3 weeks, according to headlines today. Some states are over double in the past three weeks.

This is good news.

[Swoop]

I see we hit a new record in Florida - 21,000 cases.

For those that like to use common sense, what does getting a record number of cases while performing half as many tests imply? (We are down from 90,000 tests to 48,000 tests per day)
Looks like we will be reaching herd immunity quicker…

[GrumpyOldMan]

Looks like we will be reaching herd immunity quicker…

Too bad so many will need to die to get there, that way.

The other news is vaccination rate is up, people are taking action and getting vaccinations, so you may be right.

[Malsua]

You seem to have a lot of knowledge on the subject. As you probably know, Sars-Cov1 did have an animal intermediary, as did MERS. They've never found the animal this time even though the Chinese claimed they had only to be refuted and exposed by other scientists. The genome sequence needs to be almost as exact match and the closest they ever got was 96%.

The Chinese were present when they did the gain of function research at Univ. of North Carolina lab where they successfully infected HeLa cells (human cells) with horseshoe bat coronavirus. So the Chinese just continued on with it in Wuhan, along with other bioweapons research. Although virus escapes have happened, this was no accident. Not with the timing of it and then the elaborate cover up and lies by the Chinese. As late as mid-January, at least two months after the first COVID case, knowing full well what was happening in their country they still permitted travel abroad.

Nice "business partners", eh?


Hanlon's razor is appropriate here. "never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity".

I think of the leak as stupidity and poor controls.

I think the coverup was malice. Not stopping international flights out of Wuhan, but stopping domestic flights? Malice. Taking the viral database offline? Malice. Lying to the WHO, Malice. Showing videos of people falling over in the street? Malice. etc.

They knew exactly where this came from and who did it and have spared no lives in making sure no one else figures it out. The problem with that is the genome is hard science. You can't fudge it, it's testable out of their control.

Now that it's passed to animals, they will probably deflect and suggest that the animal reservoirs were the source, rather than the other way around. White tail deer in Michigan? I read an article on that yesterday but I haven't run it down.

[John41]

Because maybe much is still unknown about this virus because it was made in a lab? That's why a traditional vaccine couldn't be created for it so they had to go the experimental route and take some chances. Maybe the virus won't behave in the same way a virus from a naturally occurring source would?

Actually, no maybes about it. Those are actual reasons why.

This virus was created in a lab using gain of function research funded by Fauci so its going be problematic. Fortunately there is a new technology being developed by last years Nobel prize winner and others that will be able to bypass the immune system antibody method and destroy the DNA of the virus directly.

[John41]

I see we hit a new record in Florida - 21,000 cases.

For those that like to use common sense, what does getting a record number of cases while performing half as many tests imply? (We are down from 90,000 tests to 48,000 tests per day)

They have been traced to people traveling back and forth from the Miami area to South America where Delta and the two new variants are from. This is the same region the 1 million illegal aliens have come from, unmasked and unvaxxed and ignored by some for PC reasons.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

The seven-day average Vaccines administered are up 26% over the past 3 weeks, according to headlines today. Some states are over double in the past three weeks.

This is good news.

It's a shame it's taken this long. Too many people just keep banging their heads against the wall, expecting the door to open. Eventually they learn - there's no door there. You need to first find a door.

That's what's happened with this vaccine and the virus. Wall = refusal to vaccinate. Door = the vaccine.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Hanlon's razor is appropriate here. "never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity".



This is a good one to use in the context of vaccine and virus deniers. They're not actually malicious. They're just stupid.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

This virus was created in a lab using gain of function research funded by Fauci so its going be problematic. Fortunately there is a new technology being developed by last years Nobel prize winner and others that will be able to bypass the immune system antibody method and destroy the DNA of the virus directly.

Here's a good explanation of the gain of function situation:

news observer article (https://www.newsobserver.com/news/coronavirus/article252922828.html)

Notice that this article doesn't make fun of, disparage, or even address the people themselves. It is an explanation of the actual science, the facts themselves. No accusations that one side is smarter/dumber than the other. No "what abouts." Just simple easy to understand information.

[PersonalChoice]

The CDC announced they will revoke the emergency use authorization of the PCR tests first introduced in February of 2020.

"CDC encourages laboratories to consider adoption of a multiplexed method that can facilitate detection and differentiation of SARS CoV-2 and influenza viruses."

Lab Alert: Changes to CDC RT-PCR for SARS-CoV-2 Testing (https://www.cdc.gov/csels/dls/locs/2021/07-21-2021-lab-alert-Changes_CDC_RT-PCR_SARS-CoV-2_Testing_1.html)

So, does this mean that the PCR test that was used during the "pandemic" could not differentiate between Sars CoV-2 and influenza?

[Bill14564]

They have been traced to people traveling back and forth from the Miami area to South America where Delta and the two new variants are from. This is the same region the 1 million illegal aliens have come from, unmasked and unvaxxed and ignored by some for PC reasons.

India, the UK, and several European countries had Delta before the US did. Were they impacted by the US southern border too?

We need to stop with the ridiculous attempts to find someone to blame other than the 40%ish of the country who have refused to get the vaccination. They are the ones predominately getting sick and filling the hospitals. They are the ones predominately spreading the virus. They are the ones who are driving the "need" for the new mask mandates. They, the unvaccinated, are the primary reason the virus is still spreading. Talking about the border is a distraction or a deflection - deal with the problem at hand.

Yes, there are some who legitimately cannot be vaccinated. Their need for special protection is due to the vaccine refusers as well.

[golfing eagles]

I see we hit a new record in Florida - 21,000 cases.

For those that like to use common sense, what does getting a record number of cases while performing half as many tests imply? (We are down from 90,000 tests to 48,000 tests per day)

My guess----it IMPLIES that 1/2 the population has been vaccinated and doesn't show up to get tested, leaving the unvaccinated in the test line----1/2 as many tests but many more positives..... Just a guess.

[Escape Artist]

India, the UK, and several European countries had Delta before the US did. Were they impacted by the US southern border too?

We need to stop with the ridiculous attempts to find someone to blame other than the 40%ish of the country who have refused to get the vaccination. They are the ones predominately getting sick and filling the hospitals. They are the ones predominately spreading the virus. They are the ones who are driving the "need" for the new mask mandates. They, the unvaccinated, are the primary reason the virus is still spreading. Talking about the border is a distraction or a deflection - deal with the problem at hand.

Yes, there are some who legitimately cannot be vaccinated. Their need for special protection is due to the vaccine refusers as well.

I hope these "travelers" don't have the dreaded South African variant which rampaged through Brazil. There could be new variants also, it's hard to keep up.

[coffeebean]

Covid is not an influenza virus. "Flu" is short for "influenza virus." COVID-19 is short for "COronaVIrus Disease."

The veterinarian who wrote his treatise warning against the vaccine - if you were actually paying attention around the time that was written - was mostly referring to the concept that in order for a vaccine against COVID-19 to be effective, MOST people need to be vaccinated. There was no way to develop, AND test, AND manufacture, AND distribute a vaccine for COVID-19 in time for "most" people to be immunized.

That meant the virus would have had a LOT of time to mutate.

He was absolutely spot-on right, in that. But it wasn't because people COULDN'T vaccinate in time. It's because they CHOSE not to vaccinate in time.

The warnings were coming from everywhere - you get vaccinated as soon as you are eligible, as soon as the vaccine is available to you. If you don't, the virus can mutate.

Too many people said "screw that, I'll take my chances." And the virus did EXACTLY as predicted: it mutated.

If people took the "herd immunity" concept more seriously THEN, the virus wouldn't have had the opportunity to mutate NOW.

Anti-vaxxers, hesitant-vaxxers, religious conscientious objector-vaxxers have their fingers in their ears while they chant la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la so loudly to drown out any information that they either do not agree with or are afraid of. You can't fix stupid. There, is said it finally. I've been waaaaaaaay too nice about this crap.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

My guess----it IMPLIES that 1/2 the population has been vaccinated and doesn't show up to get tested, leaving the unvaccinated in the test line----1/2 as many tests but many more positives..... Just a guess.

I haven't been tested at all, not from the day the first tests became available to the present.

I spent the entire last year just flat out assuming that I'd been exposed to it, due to the nature of my job at the time (working in Publix before masks were required, while masks were required but unenforceable by employees, and out in the parking lots where masks were also not required). No need to have proof that you were exposed to something, if you just go ahead and assume you were exposed to it.

I had no symptoms throughout so either I was never exposed and therefore not able to have caught COVID, or I was exposed and either didn't catch the disease, or was asymptomatic.

*I* wore a mask, so *I* did *my* part in minimizing the risk that everyone else might catch it from me, if I was actually infected but asymptomatic.

Now that the vaccine is here, I'm fully vaccinated and willing to get the booster if the CDC ends up recommending it. Hopefully they'll decide within the next couple of months so we can get it in time for it to be as effective as Pfizer says it should be.

[coffeebean]

I haven't been tested at all, not from the day the first tests became available to the present.

I spent the entire last year just flat out assuming that I'd been exposed to it, due to the nature of my job at the time (working in Publix before masks were required, while masks were required but unenforceable by employees, and out in the parking lots where masks were also not required). No need to have proof that you were exposed to something, if you just go ahead and assume you were exposed to it.

I had no symptoms throughout so either I was never exposed and therefore not able to have caught COVID, or I was exposed and either didn't catch the disease, or was asymptomatic.

*I* wore a mask, so *I* did *my* part in minimizing the risk that everyone else might catch it from me, if I was actually infected but asymptomatic.

Now that the vaccine is here, I'm fully vaccinated and willing to get the booster if the CDC ends up recommending it. Hopefully they'll decide within the next couple of months so we can get it in time for it to be as effective as Pfizer says it should be.

Bring on the booster. I want to cruise!

[Byte1]

Anti-vaxxers, hesitant-vaxxers, religious conscientious objector-vaxxers have their fingers in their ears while they chant la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la so loudly to drown out any information that they either do not agree with or are afraid of. You can't fix stupid. There, is said it finally. I've been waaaaaaaay too nice about this crap.

Sure, like that is going to convince anyone to get their vaccination.

[lkagele]

Anti-vaxxers, hesitant-vaxxers, religious conscientious objector-vaxxers have their fingers in their ears while they chant la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la so loudly to drown out any information that they either do not agree with or are afraid of. You can't fix stupid. There, is said it finally. I've been waaaaaaaay too nice about this crap.

Too judgmental, IMO. I chose to be vaccinated due to my age bracket. I don't really care about those choosing not to get the vaccine. Their choice and they will live with any adverse consequences. And, for younger generations, the risk of adverse consequences is minimal.

Have you ever considered that we might be the ones that turn out to be stupid. After all, the vaccines are still only experimental having only been approved for emergency use. No one yet knows if there are any long term effects. I'm hoping not but I still understand there's that risk.

[drducat]

Bring on the booster. I want to cruise!

:popcorn:

[Byte1]

Bring on the booster. I want to cruise!

No one is stopping you now. Cruise ships have been leaving port in Florida.

[GrumpyOldMan]

My guess----it IMPLIES that 1/2 the population has been vaccinated and doesn't show up to get tested, leaving the unvaccinated in the test line----1/2 as many tests but many more positives..... Just a guess.

So you are saying the tests are weighted to people that are not vaccinated, and that would account for the higher percentage of testing positive.

That is a very good answer. Thank you. I will have to scratch my head for a while to see if the bias adds up, but the first impression is you are right.

(Oh darn, sorry, I didn't mean to agree with you again - people are going to start taking!)

[CFrance]

So you are saying the tests are weighted to people that are not vaccinated, and that would account for the higher percentage of testing positive.

That is a very good answer. Thank you. I will have to scratch my head for a while to see if the bias adds up, but the first impression is you are right.

(Oh darn, sorry, I didn't mean to agree with you again - people are going to start taking!)
You two stop being so nice to each other.:boxing2:

[GrumpyOldMan]

Too judgmental, IMO. I chose to be vaccinated due to my age bracket. I don't really care about those choosing not to get the vaccine. Their choice and they will live with any adverse consequences. And, for younger generations, the risk of adverse consequences is minimal.

Have you ever considered that we might be the ones that turn out to be stupid. After all, the vaccines are still only experimental having only been approved for emergency use. No one yet knows if there are any long term effects. I'm hoping not but I still understand there's that risk.

Actually, no, I have my entire life put science first in my life. So, I put my trust in scientists that spend their lives learning about pandemics and doing that for that old fashion, an out-of-style thing called "helping mankind".

Sure there are some scientists that have sold their souls to big corporations and make statements like "Camel Cigarettes are GOOD for your cough". And they are part of the reason for the anti-science so prevalent today.

And then there are the charlatans that sell their snake oil to those that will buy it.

But, those down in the trenches, not looking for fame and riches, do doing the hard work and publishing in peer review journals. I trust them. I think NOT trusting them would be a bad idea.

[Byte1]

July had the lowest death rate by Covid in over a year, almost two years. In Florida, of the total deaths in July was less than 6% Covid related.
Most of those refusing the Covid vaccination are either young or minorities. That's a fact according to the demographics table on the CDC site.

[Escape Artist]

The whole spike protein thing is overblown, and has been used as a political anti-vax conspiracy to cast blame and deflect. While I don't really understand about spike proteins, I do understand about checking out information sources. If credentialed, known, experienced, published, peer-reviewed, immunologists, virologists, research scientists who are respected *by their peers* all say "yeah that thing you heard? It's just more fox news nonsense" then I'm going to believe them, before I believe Tucker Carlson.

And by "by their peers" I am intentionally excluding people whose opinions of those scientists have no relevance. What a Tucker or Hannity or whoever is on CNN or main-stream-media or some alt-right or anarchy conspiracy website or Dr. Oz or even our President feels about a scientist is not relevant. I don't care about their feelings about science. I care about the respected opinions of respected scientists, about other respected scientists.

In other words, I believe in science, not editorials.

Who or what determines "respectability"? Everything, including science, has become extremely politicized so it's almost impossible to be objective. Therefore, the general public will naturally be skeptical of the "experts" and take their "respected" opinions with a grain of salt.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

:popcorn:

Happy healthy children who were successfully inoculated against smallpox. Routine vaccination for smallpox ended in 1972, after smallpox was eradicated from the planet thanks to vaccinations.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Who or what determines "respectability"? Everything, including science, has become extremely politicized so it's almost impossible to be objective. Therefore, the general public will naturally be skeptical of the "experts" and take their "respected" opinions with a grain of salt.

When the choice is a medical conspiracy website that sells supplements that don't do anything, or Tucker Carlson, or Sean Hannity, or the President - who is also not a scientist or doctor of any kind...

I'll pick the actual scientists who have spent their lives studying virii for a living.

[Escape Artist]

When the choice is a medical conspiracy website that sells supplements that don't do anything, or Tucker Carlson, or Sean Hannity, or the President - who is also not a scientist or doctor of any kind...

I'll pick the actual scientists who have spent their lives studying virii for a living.

Ah, but they also are influenced by outside sources. You seem to want to deify scientists but they can be corrupt just like everyone else, haha.

My daughter was an immunologist - not a virologist, but close enough. She worked for research labs in the U.S. and Europe. She usually worked under the umbrella of a hospital or university so it depended on who was providing the funding for their research and that could skew results (especially if pharmaceutical companies were involved). Hate to burst your bubble!

[GrumpyOldMan]

Who or what determines "respectability"? Everything, including science, has become extremely politicized so it's almost impossible to be objective. Therefore, the general public will naturally be skeptical of the "experts" and take their "respected" opinions with a grain of salt.

Actually no, science has not become politicized. The mainstream scientists are still the same, are still publishing and being peer-reviewed, and still practicing science.

There certainly has been an attempt to politicize it, but for the most part that is not the case.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Ah, but they also are influenced by outside sources. You seem to want to deify scientists but they can be corrupt just like everyone else, haha.


See this doesn't help. No one is Deifying anyone. Scientists are human. Scientists make mistakes. Scientists can be influenced.

But, a Vet giving advice on Pandemics is not science. A politician saying they are smarter than scientists is not helpful.

Why does it seem it is always necessary to exaggerate the opposition's position to make ones point.

[GrumpyOldMan]

My daughter was an immunologist - not a virologist, but close enough. She worked for research labs in the U.S. and Europe. She usually worked under the umbrella of a hospital or university so it depended on who was providing the funding for their research and that could skew results (especially if pharmaceutical companies were involved). Hate to burst your bubble!

You aren't bursting my bubble. One example to pain all scientists seems a bit unfair.

Are you saying that unless all scientists are saints, that they are are unworthy?

[Escape Artist]

You aren't bursting my bubble. One example to pain all scientists seems a bit unfair.

Are you saying that unless all scientists are saints, that they are are unworthy?

My reply wasn't directed at you unless you and Orange Blossom Baby are one in the same. there's too much reliance on science as if it isn't fallible, especially regarding the vaccines which are new and experimental so its effects and results are still evolving and not engraved in stone.

And to say science hasn't become politicized is untrue. I can think of two glaring examples aside from COVID but don't want to veer off topic and get the thread closed down.

[coffeebean]

Sure, like that is going to convince anyone to get their vaccination.

Of course not. Because they have their fingers in their ears. LOL.

[coffeebean]

Too judgmental, IMO. I chose to be vaccinated due to my age bracket. I don't really care about those choosing not to get the vaccine. Their choice and they will live with any adverse consequences. And, for younger generations, the risk of adverse consequences is minimal.

Have you ever considered that we might be the ones that turn out to be stupid. After all, the vaccines are still only experimental having only been approved for emergency use. No one yet knows if there are any long term effects. I'm hoping not but I still understand there's that risk.

What time frame are people concerned about regarding "long term effects"? Is it one year, five years, 20 years? We know NOW what effects Covid causes and that includes those pesky long haul effects right up to death. Why worry about the unknown of a vaccine when it is very possible there will be no long term effects with the vaccines at all.

Vaccination history has proven that long term effects from any vaccine ever developed and used in humanity has not caused long term effects beyond the amount of time that has already lapsed for these mRNA vaccines that have already been administered. Very good chance there will not be long term effects from these Covid vaccines.

That seems to be the most popular excuse used by anti-vaxxers and hesitant vaxxers. They need to start singing a different tune if you ask me.

[coffeebean]

No one is stopping you now. Cruise ships have been leaving port in Florida.

I'm aware. I follow the Cruise Critic forums very closely. As avid cruisers, hubby and I are still waiting it out. Too many "surprises" going on with the protocols changing at the drop of a hat. This Delta variant is waaaay too contagious for us to get on a ship right now. Oh well.

[Escape Artist]

What time frame are people concerned about regarding "long term effects"? Is it one year, five years, 20 years? We know NOW what effects Covid causes and that includes those pesky long haul effects right up to death. Why worry about the unknown of a vaccine when it is very possible there will be no long term effects with the vaccines at all.

Vaccination history has proven that long term effects from any vaccine ever developed and used in humanity has not caused long term effects beyond the amount of time that has already lapsed for these mRNA vaccines that have already been administered. Very good chance there will not be long term effects from these Covid vaccines.

That seems to be the most popular excuse used by anti-vaxxers and hesitant vaxxers. They need to start singing a different tune if you ask me.

No one seems to know how long the immunity conveyed by the vaccines lasts. they estimate 6-12 months. They did the trails for the Pfizer in July 2020 and tested the participants in January 2021 and they still had strong antibodies. Maybe it never goes away? That wouldn't be a good thing, either. With traditional vaccines, they are broken down by your cells over time, but we don't know what to expect with these mRNA ones.

[GrumpyOldMan]

My reply wasn't directed at you unless you and Orange Blossom Baby are one in the same. there's too much reliance on science as if it isn't fallible, especially regarding the vaccines which are new and experimental so its effects and results are still evolving and not engraved in stone.

And to say science hasn't become politicized is untrue. I can think of two glaring examples aside from COVID but don't want to veer off topic and get the thread closed down.

Okay, you can think of Two examples. I said in my reply some have attempted to. I can provide literally thousands of examples of scientists that have not been politicized so, what does that prove?

[coffeebean]

No one seems to know how long the immunity conveyed by the vaccines lasts. they estimate 6-12 months. They did the trails for the Pfizer in July 2020 and tested the participants in January 2021 and they still had strong antibodies. Maybe it never goes away? That wouldn't be a good thing, either. With traditional vaccines, they are broken down by your cells over time, but we don't know what to expect with these mRNA ones.

My understanding with these mRNA vaccines is that they train the immune system to recognize the pathogen, this being the Covid virus spike protein. Even if antibodies have waned to an undetectable level, the body's immune system T Cells and B Cells will spring into action and neutralize the virus, thus stopping the infectious process in its tracks. That is where the protection is derived from the vaccine.

GE.......any comments? I think you already told me that this is a correct understanding of how these mRNA vaccines work. Do I have that right?

[drducat]

My understanding with these mRNA vaccines is that they train the immune system to recognize the pathogen, this being the Covid virus spike protein.


This gives no T cell immunity......not a sterilizing vaccine, just B cell. To go full T Cell immunity an actual virus (dead) needs to be used, not a shape protein. It is impossible to have T cell immunity....vaccine is just a band aid, no different from Tylenol....gives protection of symptoms only and not the virus . :MOJE_whot::MOJE_whot:

[jimjamuser]

There's no "anti-vaxxer movement" and no one is stopping anyone from getting the vaccine. I know people from different walks of life, race/ethnicity, religion, income level, political ideology who do not want to get the vaccine. They have nothing else in common, only that.
If someone REALLY wants to see the anti-vaxxer movement in operation. Just watch the 1st 5 minutes of the wonderful "Tuckums" show every night at 8 PM on conTV (con for conspiracy)!

[jimjamuser]

He's not a prominent virologist.

He's a veterinarian who received his PhD in virology. His actual medical doctorate is in veterinary medicine. He's also prominent only by way of self-promotion. He's not really known for much of anything. I mean he made a big deal about speaking at a LinkdIn event in Ohio. That's the medicine world's equivalent of a motivational speaker at a regional Tupperware meeting.
That post "cuts to the core". And drives away the clouds of MISINFORMATION that are sweeping through the US from the dark sections of the web.

[jimjamuser]

Fauci's resume is impeccable. He is a legend in his field. History will remember him, not that self-promoting VETERINARIAN!

[jimjamuser]

Swine Flu (H1N1) was declared a pandemic in the spring of 2009. By December of that year they had developed a traditional vaccine and were starting to administer it. That's because Swine Flu was related to other flus that humans get. It had the same components. Not so with COVID. They had to try something new. They're still figuring it out and you can see that in the CDC's backtracking, contradictions, corrections, and do-overs for the past year.

All this new study has done is create more uncertainty, confusion and distrust. Now the unvaccinated think, "why bother getting vaccinated if my old auntie is fully vaxxed and still got it anyway?"
We need a vaccine against conspiracy theories and misinformation Then maybe we could get a normal America back?

[drducat]

Fauci's resume is impeccable. He is a legend in his field. History will remember him, not that self-promoting VETERINARIAN!

It is not going to end well for Fauci....He is a phony hack.

[jimjamuser]

Covid is not an influenza virus. "Flu" is short for "influenza virus." COVID-19 is short for "COronaVIrus Disease."

The veterinarian who wrote his treatise warning against the vaccine - if you were actually paying attention around the time that was written - was mostly referring to the concept that in order for a vaccine against COVID-19 to be effective, MOST people need to be vaccinated. There was no way to develop, AND test, AND manufacture, AND distribute a vaccine for COVID-19 in time for "most" people to be immunized.

That meant the virus would have had a LOT of time to mutate.

He was absolutely spot-on right, in that. But it wasn't because people COULDN'T vaccinate in time. It's because they CHOSE not to vaccinate in time.

The warnings were coming from everywhere - you get vaccinated as soon as you are eligible, as soon as the vaccine is available to you. If you don't, the virus can mutate.

Too many people said "screw that, I'll take my chances." And the virus did EXACTLY as predicted: it mutated.

If people took the "herd immunity" concept more seriously THEN, the virus wouldn't have had the opportunity to mutate NOW.
The US blew a BIG opportunity to finish off or nearly finish off CV in the US in April and May. We could have then worked to help out the world by opening up more vaccine-producing facilities in the US and worldwide. US citizens worked basically toward one goal in WW2 - to save the world from tyranny. Now in World War CV (WWCV), as a country, we have NOT been EVEN able to SAVE ourselves (from ourselves). Today, we do NOT seem like The United States - we seem united in CHAOS only - multiple different factions and tribes are pulling the US apart, not together. How does this movie end? I wonder if the Roman Empire felt like this as it began to crumble. If a VIRUS were smart enough to laugh, it would mock our feeble attempts to irradicate it.

[Escape Artist]

If someone REALLY wants to see the anti-vaxxer movement in operation. Just watch the 1st 5 minutes of the wonderful "Tuckums" show every night at 8 PM on conTV (con for conspiracy)!

Oh, you mean the knuckle-dragging white supremacist hillbillies who call it a "plandemic" and think George Soros, Bill Gates and Obama are behind the whole thing at China's direction?

Well, you'd be wrong. Those refusing to get vaccinated are not right wing nutjobs nor Tucker Carlson/Fox News lovers but minorities - black and Latinos - who distrust the government that takes care of them, cradle to grave. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you!

These are supposed to be their peeps and they have pooped on their vaccination agenda! They've offered them money, incentives, in California the idiot governor is on TV spinning the lottery wheel where newly vaccinated folks are entered, they've done outreach, special vaccine clinics at parks and shopping malls. Latino men, still full of the old-school machismo, think it will make them impotent or sterile. Blacks think it's another Tuskegee experiment at their expense. And then there's the young. Well, they're supposed to be stupid, right? Full of bravado, thinking they're invincible and nothing can hurt them.

Maybe you shouldn't be so self-righteous, judgmental, sneering, and stereotyping, and realize this pandemic is all about FEAR. Fear of the virus, which I see plenty of on this forum, and fear of an experimental vaccine and its possible, unknown side effects. Both reactions are normal and human so stop trivializing and mocking other people's pain and anxiety.

[RICH1]

After almost 2 years , nobody really knows

[jimjamuser]

This virus was created in a lab using gain of function research funded by Fauci so its going be problematic. Fortunately there is a new technology being developed by last years Nobel prize winner and others that will be able to bypass the immune system antibody method and destroy the DNA of the virus directly.
I would read a link on that!

[jimjamuser]

Who or what determines "respectability"? Everything, including science, has become extremely politicized so it's almost impossible to be objective. Therefore, the general public will naturally be skeptical of the "experts" and take their "respected" opinions with a grain of salt.
It is still possible to be "objective". For example, 97% of all medical Doctors have received CV shots. That fact makes a BIG impression on me. Still, in today's strange, dark media mess, some are still shilling for no vaccines and no masks. Yes, I am looking at you........Tuckums.

[coffeebean]

This gives no T cell immunity......not a sterilizing vaccine, just B cell. To go full T Cell immunity an actual virus (dead) needs to be used, not a shape protein. It is impossible to have T cell immunity....vaccine is just a band aid, no different from Tylenol....gives protection of symptoms only and not the virus . :MOJE_whot::MOJE_whot:

According to this article, mRNA vaccines do induce memory T Cell response.......

Do mRNA-based COVID-19 vaccines induce memory T cell response similar to natural infection? (https://www.news-medical.net/news/20210719/Do-mRNA-based-COVID-19-vaccines-induce-memory-T-cell-response-similar-to-natural-infection.aspx)

[Escape Artist]

According to this article, mRNA vaccines do induce memory T Cell response.......

Do mRNA-based COVID-19 vaccines induce memory T cell response similar to natural infection? (https://www.news-medical.net/news/20210719/Do-mRNA-based-COVID-19-vaccines-induce-memory-T-cell-response-similar-to-natural-infection.aspx)

That's good news, if correct but it said the article hasn't been peer-reviewed yet.

[coffeebean]

Oh, you mean the knuckle-dragging white supremacist hillbillies who call it a "plandemic" and think George Soros, Bill Gates and Obama are behind the whole thing at China's direction?

Well, you'd be wrong. Those refusing to get vaccinated are not right wing nutjobs nor Tucker Carlson/Fox News lovers but minorities - black and Latinos - who distrust the government that takes care of them, cradle to grave. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you!

These are supposed to be their peeps and they have pooped on their vaccination agenda! They've offered them money, incentives, in California the idiot governor is on TV spinning the lottery wheel where newly vaccinated folks are entered, they've done outreach, special vaccine clinics at parks and shopping malls. Latino men, still full of the old-school machismo, think it will make them impotent or sterile. Blacks think it's another Tuskegee experiment at their expense. And then there's the young. Well, they're supposed to be stupid, right? Full of bravado, thinking they're invincible and nothing can hurt them.

Maybe you shouldn't be so self-righteous, judgmental, sneering, and stereotyping, and realize this pandemic is all about FEAR. Fear of the virus, which I see plenty of on this forum, and fear of an experimental vaccine and its possible, unknown side effects. Both reactions are normal and human so stop trivializing and mocking other people's pain and anxiety.

Here Are The Biggest Groups That Are Still Refusing The Covid-19 Vaccine, Poll Finds (https://www.forbes.com/sites/alisondurkee/2021/06/11/here-are-the-biggest-groups-that-are-still-refusing-the-covid-19-vaccine-poll-finds/?sh=5971ecc842cc)

EXCERPT.........Nearly half of unvaccinated respondents were Republicans (49% versus 29% Democrats), as opposed to 31% of vaccinated respondents who identified as Republicans and 59% Democrats.

[jimjamuser]

Ah, but they also are influenced by outside sources. You seem to want to deify scientists but they can be corrupt just like everyone else, haha.

My daughter was an immunologist - not a virologist, but close enough. She worked for research labs in the U.S. and Europe. She usually worked under the umbrella of a hospital or university so it depended on who was providing the funding for their research and that could skew results (especially if pharmaceutical companies were involved). Hate to burst your bubble!
Let us take what you said about University research into diseases and vaccines being CORRUPTIBLE by the Pharmaceutical Industry as a GIVEN - then, we have to acknowledge that in the 50s through the 70s the US government stimulated and paid for basic research at ALL Universities. After that, some legendary President that also was a cowboy actor pulled Federal funds for research from the Universities in order to free up funds for a tax cut. Then, the Universities had to go "hats in hand" out to industry and Corporations to secure research funds. Today, China graduates more Scientists and Engineers and places more emphasis and money into their research than the US does. So, there is a modern-day history behind the "corruption" of which you speak! US students go For Business degrees more than Science and Engineering TODAY. Now you know, "the rest of the story"!

[jimjamuser]

I'm aware. I follow the Cruise Critic forums very closely. As avid cruisers, hubby and I are still waiting it out. Too many "surprises" going on with the protocols changing at the drop of a hat. This Delta variant is waaaay too contagious for us to get on a ship right now. Oh well.
That IS a smart course of action!

[drducat]

Let us take what you said about University research into diseases and vaccines being CORRUPTIBLE by the Pharmaceutical Industry as a GIVEN - then, we have to acknowledge that in the 50s through the 70s the US government stimulated and paid for basic research at ALL Universities. After that, some legendary President that also was a cowboy actor pulled Federal funds for research from the Universities in order to free up funds for a tax cut. Then, the Universities had to go "hats in hand" out to industry and Corporations to secure research funds. Today, China graduates more Scientists and Engineers and places more emphasis and money into their research than the US does. So, there is a modern-day history behind the "corruption" of which you speak! US students go For Business degrees more than Science and Engineering TODAY. Now you know, "the rest of the story"!

All about the money........

UPDATE 2-Pfizer and Moderna raise prices for COVID-19 vaccines in EU- FT (https://finance.yahoo.com/news/1-pfizer-moderna-raise-prices-121400124.html)

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Ah, but they also are influenced by outside sources. You seem to want to deify scientists but they can be corrupt just like everyone else, haha.

My daughter was an immunologist - not a virologist, but close enough. She worked for research labs in the U.S. and Europe. She usually worked under the umbrella of a hospital or university so it depended on who was providing the funding for their research and that could skew results (especially if pharmaceutical companies were involved). Hate to burst your bubble!

Wow people are really having a lot of trouble comprehending my posts. Am I typing in a foreign language and not realizing it?

I'll say it again, differently. But it means the same:

If you put up a TV editorial personality, a conspiracy theory website written by conspiracy theorists and NOT scientists of any kind at all, the President of the United States (past, present, or future), and my next door neighbor who's a very very nice, smart, clever, fun woman...

against a scientist who has earned accolades from his own peers for the past 40-something years, has had hundreds of peer-reviewed studies and research that has resulted in groundbreaking data and health benefits to the entire world...

I'll take the scientist. Every single time. Even if he's accused of being a politician.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

All about the money........

UPDATE 2-Pfizer and Moderna raise prices for COVID-19 vaccines in EU- FT (https://finance.yahoo.com/news/1-pfizer-moderna-raise-prices-121400124.html)

It's not "all" about money. Price increases are about money of course. Otherwise they'd be an increase in elevation of their patio chairs. Or an increase in the height of the new roof. Or an increase in my waist after eating a box of Yodels.

Did you really expect these companies would be able to continue doing research, improving their product, and basically giving away the entire first batch of their vaccines, without recouping some of those expenses? They are for-profit corporations, not governmental social programs.

You want capitalism, but you don't want to pay for it?

[tvbound]

Oh, you mean the knuckle-dragging white supremacist hillbillies who call it a "plandemic" and think George Soros, Bill Gates and Obama are behind the whole thing at China's direction?

Well, you'd be wrong. Those refusing to get vaccinated are not right wing nutjobs nor Tucker Carlson/Fox News lovers but minorities - black and Latinos - who distrust the government that takes care of them, cradle to grave. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you!

These are supposed to be their peeps and they have pooped on their vaccination agenda! They've offered them money, incentives, in California the idiot governor is on TV spinning the lottery wheel where newly vaccinated folks are entered, they've done outreach, special vaccine clinics at parks and shopping malls. Latino men, still full of the old-school machismo, think it will make them impotent or sterile. Blacks think it's another Tuskegee experiment at their expense. And then there's the young. Well, they're supposed to be stupid, right? Full of bravado, thinking they're invincible and nothing can hurt them.

Maybe you shouldn't be so self-righteous, judgmental, sneering, and stereotyping, and realize this pandemic is all about FEAR. Fear of the virus, which I see plenty of on this forum, and fear of an experimental vaccine and its possible, unknown side effects. Both reactions are normal and human so stop trivializing and mocking other people's pain and anxiety.

"but minorities - black and Latinos - who distrust the government that takes care of them, cradle to grave."

Wow, just wow. No need to say more, as that's pretty self-explanatory - and there's even a word for it.

[John41]

Here Are The Biggest Groups That Are Still Refusing The Covid-19 Vaccine, Poll Finds (https://www.forbes.com/sites/alisondurkee/2021/06/11/here-are-the-biggest-groups-that-are-still-refusing-the-covid-19-vaccine-poll-finds/?sh=5971ecc842cc)

EXCERPT.........Nearly half of unvaccinated respondents were Republicans (49% versus 29% Democrats), as opposed to 31% of vaccinated respondents who identified as Republicans and 59% Democrats.

The poll you refer to is a Forbes article written as a hit piece on Republicans. It is not a poll but refers to a poll. That poll is by KFF and uses surveys and qualitative information. If you read it closely there is no mention of the actual sampling method, frame nor any of the typical statistics R2, t, F to determine statistical significance. Polls of Republicans typically have high bias of non response and how that is handled greatly influences the results as 2016 showed. The poll I remember found unvaccinated were about 50/50.

[drducat]

It's not "all" about money. Price increases are about money of course. Otherwise they'd be an increase in elevation of their patio chairs. Or an increase in the height of the new roof. Or an increase in my waist after eating a box of Yodels.

Did you really expect these companies would be able to continue doing research, improving their product, and basically giving away the entire first batch of their vaccines, without recouping some of those expenses? They are for-profit corporations, not governmental social programs.

You want capitalism, but you don't want to pay for it?

What are you talking about....The money to fund the vaccines came from you and me...our government funding.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

What are you talking about....The money to fund the vaccines came from you and me...our government funding.

The United States government did NOT fund the Pfizer vaccine.