Another mass shooting g

[MartinSE]

Between 70% and 90% of American favor universal background checks. And Congress won’t pass a law to require them.

[Taltarzac725]

Columnist: Stop using mental illness as scapegoat in mass shootings (https://www.caller.com/story/news/local/2022/05/30/uvalde-texas-stop-using-mental-illness-scapegoat-mass-shootings/9940213002/)

It is too simple to just point at mental health.

According to a statement by the National Alliance on Mental Illness (NAMI) Texas, the overwhelming majority of people with mental illness are not violent. In fact, people with mental illness are more likely to be the victims of violence, rather than the perpetrators. Less than 10 percent of shootings nationwide involved people with mental illness. When we rush to make a false correlation between mental illness and mass shootings, we’re actually keeping people from seeking much needed services and perpetuating stigma.

[jimjamuser]

I can relate. I was in Peoria, AZ (outside Phoenix) in the early 2000s. I was driving a cash register in a convenience store and frequently had the overnight shift. When someone came in openly carrying a gun it made more than my hair stand up. Our company had a policy if someone wanted to steal something, help them carry it out. Do not try to stop them. I never had to carry anything out, but a friend was shot and killed in another store because he tried to "protect" the company's money... he left a wife, and 2 grandchildren over $50 in the register.
Tough story. Perhaps the solution is that in the near future a convenience store will be operated by a ROBOTIC checkout clerk and a ROBOTIC stocking clerk. Perhaps no cash will be used, with every transaction by credit card in the future.
.....It's a problem needing a solution. I am sure that smart people are working on it. I saw somewhere that McDonalds was experimenting with stores without workers, 100% robotic.

[Stu from NYC]

Tough story. Perhaps the solution is that in the near future a convenience store will be operated by a ROBOTIC checkout clerk and a ROBOTIC stocking clerk. Perhaps no cash will be used, with every transaction by credit card in the future.
.....It's a problem needing a solution. I am sure that smart people are working on it. I saw somewhere that McDonalds was experimenting with stores without workers, 100% robotic.

Stopping gun violence by eliminating millions of jobs is not exactly a great idea.

[Kenswing]

Stopping gun violence by eliminating millions of jobs is not exactly a great idea.

It is if you're in favor of a nanny state like some around here seem to be.

[Normal]

Thank goodness Florida got on this issue after Parkland and passed much more rigorous laws for background checks and extended waiting to buy guns.

It would serve congress well to examine our laws. They are some of the strictest in the US and passed by a majority of conservatives and NRA members.

[jimjamuser]

Guns will never go away........93990
Guns need NOT go away. It doesn't have to be an "either / or" situation. There are fewer mass murders in the other G-7 countries than the US. The solution IS to have the PROPER guns in the hands of the military and the police. And a PROPER but different type of guns in CIVILIAN hands. The idea is to get the RIGHT mix and type of guns in the right hands.
.........People will remember Robb Elementary when it comes time to vote in November
........ Canada recently had a mass murder event. They are proposing eliminating all Civilian HANDGUNS and MILITARY STYLE long guns. That may or may not pass, but it shows that Canadians are FED UP with mass murders, school shootings, and gang-generated crime. It also shows that they are attacking the ROOT CAUSE of deadly crime.........the GUN. They are not FOOLED by politicians trying to DEFLECT the blame towards mental health and away from the GUN. They may not be as influenced by a gun lobby like the NRA in the US. I hope that they succeed like Australia, New Zealand, and other countries have in the past. Funny to see Canada being more innovative and seriously trying to seek a solution, while the US lags behind, acting like some 3rd world, violent, corrupt, and dead-end nation!

[jimjamuser]

Better dealing with bullying and cyberbullying.
Bullying and cyberbullying go on in all other G-7 nations, but only the US has so MUCH GUN related crime and mass murders. US children will be AFRAID to go to school because of gang violence and their mental images of Robb Elementary. The G-7 nations have the same amount of exposure to mental health problems. Video games are the same. All elements of life in G-7 countries are the SAME as the US. The main difference is that the US has MORE accessible GUNS and therefore MORE violent crime!

[Trayderjoe]

Between 70% and 90% of American favor universal background checks. And Congress won’t pass a law to require them.

Not sure where you get the range of “70-90%” are in favor of “universal background checks”.

Does everyone understand that these checks are meant for private sales? So tell me, since the present FEDERALLY REQUIRED background check system conducted by the FBI, doesn’t work properly, why not fix that system before adding more checks to a system that already doesn’t work?

I suppose this is in line with the “we need more gun laws” mantra. How about first ENFORCING the current laws?

Frankly I am tired of the, if “you” don’t support new gun laws then “you” and the NRA are condoning gun violence. If that is “your” mantra, then “you” must also accept that “you” support fentanyl drug abuse, human trafficking, 32 people per day (per the NHTSA (https://www.nhtsa.gov/risky-driving/drunk-driving)) killed from drunk driving crashes, etc. if “you” aren’t supporting the enforcement of ALL current laws.

How about locking up criminals, support law enforcement, and work on HIPAA and how to address juvenile records in the CURRENT background check system? Will this stop ALL gun related shootings? Reality says no. Would it be is a start to reducing the occurrence? Yes and I would hope EVERYONE would agree at least on that.

[jimjamuser]

In the end, gangbangers and other criminals will always have guns.
Why then are children SAFER in schools in other countries than the US. They are doing things right, we are doing things wrong!

[jimjamuser]

There are some of us who have lived and observed the period of destruction of our Society and the resultant Con regarding how to fixed it with a single act of change, e.g. gun control. We have seen the mental hospital's closed and the patients sent to the street., we have seen the church attendance significantly reduced, we have seen a tremendous growth in "entitlement" demands, we have seen people avoiding participation in work as they want needs given not earned, we have seen the Police and other authority groups, (e.g. teachers, etc) powers taken away, we have seen our children provided with electronic games which boast shootings, killings and the total disrespect for life, we have raised children who believe killing is a "game", we have made drugs legal or ignore their their use and effects on our lives, we have watched means of destroying total societies put in the hands of corrupt leaders, I am sure many more conditions can be identified by those who have also lived many many many years and are not fooled by the con that controlling guns will make our lives better. How many have heard a senior citizen say "I am glad I am living now as I would not want to be the children of today who have to deal with what we are leaving behind"? Let's not be fooled by the corrupt intellectuals who preach that gun controls will fix our problems but rather re-establish values that return us to a great society. :ohdear:
Wishful thinking will NOT drive the hands of time backward. We need to confront the problem as it exists today (Robb Elementry being an example). US gun ownership has gone up 30 % in the last 2 years. When we determine what is CAUSING that and DO SOMETHING about it, life will begin to return to the less violent 1950s days.
........Canada is TRYING to do something. The US is NOT trying.

[jimjamuser]

Stopping gun violence by eliminating millions of jobs is not exactly a great idea.
A.I. and Robotics are coming whether anyone likes it or NOT. SOCIETY must ADJUST. Just like society adjusted from the horse and buggy to the automobile.

[MartinSE]

Honestly? At this point I think you just like hearing yourself talk. If you can't get your point across with over 100 posts, you're just not going to. Now you're just trolling, throwing ridiculous things like plastic guns out there.

Thank you for your personal attack, in fact it was a pro-gun/anti-gun control poster that first brought up plastic guns as a way around gun controls. Funny how he was not accused of trolling.

So, I will just change plastic gun to bat or knife will get through which we have been assured are just as deadly as guns

[Number 10 GI]

Yes, agreed. How people vote determines very important directions taken by people and their countries. You can vote for a dictator or you can vote against them and keep them out of power. My main point is that SOMETHING is brewing up in the US right now. The BIG INCREASE in US GUN OWNERSHIP in the last 2 years has me WORRIED. There is NOT a big increase in deer hunters or target shooters - there is SOMETHING else going on here. And I worry that it is DARK and SINISTER!
..........At the January 6th attempted OVERTHROW of the US government, you could see many flags. One of the most prominent flags had an image of a military-style AR-15-looking rifle. This has become the defacto SYMBOL of the dark proud-boy-type anarchy-oriented sick insurrectionists. Jan 6th PORTENDS a situation where citizens will have to choose between having a DEMOCRACY and NOT a dictatorship - OR having a strict interpretation of the 2nd Amendment and LOVING the proud-boy-anarchist and their SYMBOL of HATE and children's blood.......the AR killing machine.
..........you decide!

Oh please, there is no revolution being planned!! It doesn't take a rocket scientist or an IQ above that of a stupid chimpanzee to figure out what is going on. People are scared about rising violent crime and the government's inability or intentional reluctance to prosecute criminals to fullest extent of the law.

[dewilson58]

Oh please, there is no revolution being planned!! It doesn't take a rocket scientist or an IQ above that of a stupid chimpanzee to figure out what is going on. People are scared about rising violent crime and the government's inability or intentional reluctance to prosecute criminals to fullest extent of the law.

:bigbow:

[MartinSE]

Tough story. Perhaps the solution is that in the near future a convenience store will be operated by a ROBOTIC checkout clerk and a ROBOTIC stocking clerk. Perhaps no cash will be used, with every transaction by credit card in the future.
.....It's a problem needing a solution. I am sure that smart people are working on it. I saw somewhere that McDonalds was experimenting with stores without workers, 100% robotic.

Agreed, And people robbing convince stores are so stupid. I was standing in front of almost $30K in cigarettes - that were not locked. But, they would ask for the cash in the drawer, even thought there are signs saying only $50 in the drawer.

Back up to the door, load up the truck and back seat and head for your local fence and make $10,000 easily. But, no kill a person instead over $50 cash.

[jdulej]

Oh please, there is no revolution being planned!! It doesn't take a rocket scientist or an IQ above that of a stupid chimpanzee to figure out what is going on. People are scared about rising violent crime and the government's inability or intentional reluctance to prosecute criminals to fullest extent of the law.

I agree with you about "the revolution" - that's just a right wing wet dream. But, just who is everyone afraid of? On my little 3 block street here in TV there are at least 75-100 AR15s sitting in people's closets. Very few who have one have just one. They take them down to Shooter's World and pay another small fortune to blast away for a while, so they are good and ready for something. They have been told that that TV is a "soft target" (whatever that means) - more like TV is full of gullible old fools.

[Kenswing]

I agree with you about "the revolution" - that's just a right wing wet dream. But, just who is everyone afraid of? On my little 3 block street here in TV there are at least 75-100 AR15s sitting in people's closets. Very few who have one have just one. They take them down to Shooter's World and pay another small fortune to blast away for a while, so they are good and ready for something. They have been told that that TV is a "soft target" (whatever that means) - more like TV is full of gullible old fools.

Or maybe for some of us shooting is simply a hobby. Some people enjoy knocking a little white ball into a cup, while others like to poke holes in paper. I know for some of you it’s hard to understand, but not everyone with a gun is crazy.

[jimjamuser]

Oh please, there is no revolution being planned!! It doesn't take a rocket scientist or an IQ above that of a stupid chimpanzee to figure out what is going on. People are scared about rising violent crime and the government's inability or intentional reluctance to prosecute criminals to fullest extent of the law.
There is some merit to that argument. My opinion is that RISING violent crime was happening in the 1990s and it is ONLY in the last 2 years that we have that 30% rise in GUN ownership. Something else is going on. Also, the court system has been jammed up since, at least, the 1990s. Also, the US has the world's MOST incarcerated % of people - that is not new.
........I put out my theory about the 30% GUN rise. Which is the EMOTIONAL PROPAGANDA linking the AR-15 style firearms as a SYMBOL STANDING for the HATRED and resentment fomented in the dark web to divide US Americans by race and economic standing. Russian and Chinese propaganda may have lit the spark for this resentment, but some of the sinister, unpatriotic US media has RUN with it and a large % of US citizens have bought it.
.........I am willing to entertain other theories for the big increase in the last 2 years. Many are unaware of that - it is NOT an insignificant situation.

[jdulej]

Or maybe for some of us shooting is simply a hobby. Some people enjoy knocking a little white ball into a cup, while others like to poke holes in paper. I know for some of you it’s hard to understand, but not everyone with a gun is crazy.
Fair enough. I did not mean to knock target shooting.

[jimjamuser]

Or maybe for some of us shooting is simply a hobby. Some people enjoy knocking a little white ball into a cup, while others like to poke holes in paper. I know for some of you it’s hard to understand, but not everyone with a gun is crazy.
I believe that there are a lot of sane gun owners. I have enjoyed hunting and shooting at targets (note......I would NEVER shoot at pictures of humans, always a bullseye only) That is NOT the problem. The problem is the type of rifle (something with a 30-round mag) and the sheer number of guns in civilian hands. And the strange recent increase.
........Canada is worried about itself (and its proximity to the US). Canada recognizes the problem. The US has become mentally deranged by the GUN manufacturers' propaganda and advertisements. The ads for the gun used by the shooter at Robb Elementary showed a 3 or 4-year-old seemingly desirous of their AR-15 clone. That is SICK!

[jimjamuser]

There is some merit to that argument. My opinion is that RISING violent crime was happening in the 1990s and it is ONLY in the last 2 years that we have that 30% rise in GUN ownership. Something else is going on. Also, the court system has been jammed up since, at least, the 1990s. Also, the US has the world's MOST incarcerated % of people - that is not new.
........I put out my theory about the 30% GUN rise. Which is the EMOTIONAL PROPAGANDA linking the AR-15 style firearms as a SYMBOL STANDING for the HATRED and resentment fomented in the dark web to divide US Americans by race and economic standing. Russian and Chinese propaganda may have lit the spark for this resentment, but some of the sinister, unpatriotic US media has RUN with it and a large % of US citizens have bought it.
.........I am willing to entertain other theories for the big increase in the last 2 years. Many are unaware of that - it is NOT an insignificant situation.
As to "no revolution planned"......many expert social scientists ARE worried about that - nations fall apart more internally than externally. I make the odds about 50 / 50 that the US survives as a Democracy over the next 6 years! Many experts on Dictatorships see worrying trends in the US. The Canadian government has set up a study to evaluate their risk IF the US would lose its Democracy.
.........Those "worrying trends" could be the reason for the recent increase of 30% in US GUN ownership.
..........Every US citizen should have their radar tuned into trends involving violent GUN crime and trends toward autocracy. There are no guarantees that a Democracy continue forever. World trends are in the opposite direction.

[MartinSE]

Better dealing with bullying and cyberbullying.

Better or not, this is An excellent suggestion. There is a strong correlation between shooter and being bullied.

[MartinSE]

As to "no revolution planned"......many expert social scientists ARE worried about that - nations fall apart more internally than externally. I make the odds about 50 / 50 that the US survives as a Democracy over the next 6 years! Many experts on Dictatorships see worrying trends in the US. The Canadian government has set up a study to evaluate their risk IF the US would lose its Democracy.
.........Those "worrying trends" could be the reason for the recent increase of 30% in US GUN ownership.
..........Every US citizen should have their radar tuned into trends involving violent GUN crime and trends toward autocracy. There are no guarantees that a Democracy continue forever. World trends are in the opposite direction.

Yes, and wouldn’t it be ironic if the very amendment intended to prevent an authoritarian government ended up aiding in its creation?

[MartinSE]

Not sure where you get the range of “70-90%” are in favor of “universal background checks”.

Does everyone understand that these checks are meant for private sales? So tell me, since the present FEDERALLY REQUIRED background check system conducted by the FBI, doesn’t work properly, why not fix that system before adding more checks to a system that already doesn’t work?

I suppose this is in line with the “we need more gun laws” mantra. How about first ENFORCING the current laws?

Frankly I am tired of the, if “you” don’t support new gun laws then “you” and the NRA are condoning gun violence. If that is “your” mantra, then “you” must also accept that “you” support fentanyl drug abuse, human trafficking, 32 people per day (per the NHTSA (https://www.nhtsa.gov/risky-driving/drunk-driving)) killed from drunk driving crashes, etc. if “you” aren’t supporting the enforcement of ALL current laws.

How about locking up criminals, support law enforcement, and work on HIPAA and how to address juvenile records in the CURRENT background check system? Will this stop ALL gun related shootings? Reality says no. Would it be is a start to reducing the occurrence? Yes and I would hope EVERYONE would agree at least on that.

Universal does mean private sales and all states.

One of the arguments against gun controls is the loopholes. This is an attempt to close loop holes. It does nothing to prevent responsible gun owners from buying or selling gu s, just reduces the ease of criminals buying guns - reduce, not eliminate .

I am all for your suggestion the juvenile records be open to background checks.

I don’t see how prosecuting will stop school shootings like this one, until the children are dead. We need to prevent children from dying needlessly, AND punish criminals.

[frose]

broken homes, no parental supervision, easy killing video games, internet, social media, what did i miss.. if the teachers were armed this would not have happened, if an armed officer was in the school this would not have happened, if the doors were closed and locked as required, this would not have happened. i will not get political, but dam, wake up!!!!!

[Number 10 GI]

I don't know what Root Cause Analysis and Six Sigma is. But I do know how to do a google search and check actual case law and state statutes and regulations.

Your information is correct ONLY as it applies to licensed firearms dealers. It doesn't apply to private sales, or gun shows in Texas. Anyone can buy a gun at a gun show, no background check, no license or ID necessary.

At gun shows the vast majority of sellers are federally licensed gun dealers and are required to follow federal law regarding background checks. There is absolutely no "loop hole" that allows them to not perform checks.

Yes, there are private individuals selling guns, from their private collection, at gun shows and under federal law are not required to do a background check. Also federal law makes it a felony for a prohibited person to purchase, own, or possess a firearm. So who is breaking the law, the private seller who is complying with federal law or the prohibited person who is illegally buying a firearm?

It is also illegal for a private seller to sell guns as a business without obtaining a federal license. They can legally sell private collection firearms, but when it goes beyond selling a gun or multiple guns in the collection to fund another gun for their collection, it becomes a business and violation of federal law.

Additionally, private individuals are not allowed access to the NICS federal database so how are they to perform a background check? Many licensed gun dealers aren't going to be willing to take their time to perform a background check for a private seller when the dealer will derive no revenue for the service.

I suppose a law could be drafted that would allow access to the NICS database but do you want any Tom, Dick and Harry to be able to do a background check on OBB? A law could be passed that requires licensed dealers to perform the check but who will set the price for that service? If the price is too high and too time consuming or icredibilly inconvenient, a lot of private sellers will ignore the check and just sell the firearm.

OBB, you need to do a deeper Google search for your information.

[Number 10 GI]

If she could have ONLY legally purchased a bolt action or single-shot rifle he could have killed fewer children before he was overpowered!

Who was going to overpower him in a classroom full of small children?

[Number 10 GI]

I don't think it is hypocrisy. The NRA as well as the attendees are not against guns being at the convention. I've been to NRA conventions myself and had not problem carrying my handgun. It is the Secret Service who is dictating that no guns be present. That is the case at every single event that a person attends who they are charged to protect. Where any former President speaks, it will have to be gun free. As we can see from the recent headline where some Iraqi's were conspiring to kill George W. Bush. They don't have to be a sitting President to be at risk and the Secret Service will reduce as much risk as possible.

In most cases it doesn't require the President or other such dignitary for an event to have a prohibition of firearms on the premises. Most of the NRA and other organizations that hold conventions do so in a public owned facility. It is the entity controlling/owning the facility that has the authority to ban firearms and most if not all have a ban against firearms.

[Number 10 GI]

Fire exits are locked to those on the outside. In case of emergency, you push the lever and the door opens. Emergency services have the ability to access the entrances also. However, a remote control from the office can be utilized if they wish to lock and unlock doors by use of a button. Many schools in the inner cities lock all doors to keep the drug pushers out during school session.

Prisons have heavily controlled ingress and egress and still are able to evacuate the facility in the event of fire. Just requires a plan and proper execution of the plan.

[Number 10 GI]

Very good points. As you have mentioned what changed? The society, culture and almost everything changed since 1907. We are not the same people whom we can trust with 1907 or M1 Carbine. Can we change us back to 1907? Maybe not. Then we should reconsider whether the current society can be trusted with 1907s and M1 Carbines safely..

SAD

I know, it is easier to follow the path of least resistance rather than take on deteriorating moral standards in society, so we just stick our fingers in our ears and yell, LaLaLaLaLa, I can't hear you! It requires brave action to take on the people who always find a contrived excuse for evil people and their actions. Evil people with a diabolical need to cause death and destruction will find a way to do so even in the absence of guns.

If we keep allowing immoral, violent and evil people to perform these deeds, without challenge, what do you think this world will devolve to? Burry our heads in the sand and pretend all is well.

That is what is SAD.

[jimjamuser]

Who was going to overpower him in a classroom full of small children?
At one point he exchanged gunfire with several of the local police officers. They felt outgunned so they fell back and waited. This was their mistake. My point is that IF there were only single shot or bolt action rifles available to mass murderers anywhere in the US, then they would be firing SLOWER and they could more EASILY be stopped a group of adults close by. There would be more time for potential victims to run or hide. And if magazines were limited to less than 5 rounds that would slow a mass murderer down.
........As the laws exist today, the would-be murderer can fire his semi-auto at about 1 round per second and for up to 30 rounds before a magazine change. Anything that can be done by a law change to slow him down, should be done. Also not allowing civilians to get body armor would help. Canada is contemplating changes right now.
.........If the current rate of mass murders continues, the US people might get so angry that they over-react on gun safety. I would rather end up like Australia than Japan as far as gun safety goes.
..........Open carry is a great example of over-reacting in the wrong direction. There is a great chance of that backfiring.

[Number 10 GI]

The Japanese play violent video games but it does not correlate to gun violence. They make it hard to get guns.They don't have a fraction of the guns we have.

In Japanese society there are no square pegs, only round pegs and round holes. Deviance from the established societal norm is viewed critically and those people are marginalized. That is one of the reasons for the extremely high suicide rate in their society. Unlike the U.S. and European countries, the Japanese society is pretty much only Japanese and not multicultural. They don't have to contend with cultural differences. I have also read that the Japanese judicial system, in the instances of a murder/suicide, count the victims as suicides. Gives the image of a lower homicide rate.

Do some research on Japanese prisons, they are extremely regimented and by most western standards, practice brutal control methods to maintain order. Accused and convicted and imprisoned criminals do not get to see an attorney when they want. The police/prison officials determine when a prisoner is allowed counsel. There is no Miranda Warning either. Coerced confessions are quite common and rarely challenged.

[jimjamuser]

Who was going to overpower him in a classroom full of small children?
If 30 small children threw objects at an adult with a bolt-action rifle, the children might get lucky and some escape.

[dewilson58]

If 30 small children threw objects at an adult with a bolt-action rifle, the children might get lucky and some escape.

:1rotfl::1rotfl:
& if he had a bow & arrow............

a shooter is not going to use a b-a rifle
:1rotfl::1rotfl:

[Topspinmo]

I can see I’m not going to get the last rant on this subject….:faint:

[Number 10 GI]

It is true that FUNCTUALLY the Winchester 1907 is similar to the AR 15 in that they are both semi-auto rifles. But, there are significant differences. The 1907 would be longer than an AR-15 clone and therefore harder to hide under a trench coat. The cartridge of the 1907 would produce MUCH more recoil than the 223 used in an AR-15. This low-recoil feature of the 223 cartridge allows AR-15 shooters to become more proficient killers because they don't have to worry about the affects of high recoil - like barrel rise and shooter flinching. Also, the 223 cartridge is smaller and lighter than the 351 caliber of the 1907 so a mass murder can carry more rounds. And the high velocity of the 223 causes the bullet to practically explode in human flesh as compared with the .351 low velocity round. So, there ARE significant differences.
.........And society has changed so much since we grew up in the 1950s that SOMETHING must be done about the MASS-MURDER problem. The EASIEST solution is to do what Australia and New Zealand did - eliminate semi-auto rifles from CIVILIAN hands.

In Viet Nam the infantry soldier had to hump for miles in sweltering jungle conditions carrying his ammo basic load, rifle and a rucksack loaded down with other necessities. In the Sand Box soldiers humped in temperatures like an oven, carrying even more equipment than the Viet Nam vets. Some rucksacks could top 80 lbs. in weight. This demonstrated the advantages of a lightweight rifle shooting a light caliber round.

All your points are germane to a soldier in combat. None of this provided an advantage in any the school shootings or other shootings involving the AR15. All of them simply walked in an unguarded, unwatched door from their parked vehicle. The difference in ammo weight means nothing either.

The round the Model 1907 uses is similar in capability to the venerable 30-30 Winchester but both are capable rounds for deer withing their range limitation. The recoil from a .351 and time needed to get back on target really causes no limitation in rate of fire when the shooter is in a small classroom with children huddled in a corner. The .351 will more than likely penetrate 2 or more small statured children where as the 5.56 will most likely be stopped by one body. The .351 will inflict much more grievous wounds than the AR15 bullet. Typical ammo for the .351 is soft nose hunting ammo that is designed to expand when it hits flesh or bone, creating a large wound channel to cause a quick bleed out and death. The 5.56 is an effective round but it doesn't "explode", that is urban myth and it cannot create the devastating wounds the .351 can cause.

These "significant differences" mean nothing outside of the combat environment.

[MartinSE]

I know, it is easier to follow the path of least resistance rather than take on deteriorating moral standards in society, so we just stick our fingers in our ears and yell, LaLaLaLaLa, I can't hear you! It requires brave action to take on the people who always find a contrived excuse for evil people and their actions. Evil people with a diabolical need to cause death and destruction will find a way to do so even in the absence of guns.

If we keep allowing immoral, violent and evil people to perform these deeds, without challenge, what do you think this world will devolve to? Burry our heads in the sand and pretend all is well.

That is what is SAD.

This is very true, but, do we need to make it easy for them.?

[Number 10 GI]

The "would be" government OVERTHROWERS did manage to injure about 200 Police officers and seriously wound several others. Some died later. We all saw the US Capital being overthrown and we saw the rioters beating a policeman's head while stuck in a door. We saw flag poes used as spears. Later we found out that the Proud Boys and the Oath Keepers had GUNS and a boat waiting across the Potomac River.
.........We know that they chanted,"hang Mike Pense" and we saw the noose. They were NOT singing nursery rhymes and inviting Pense to a game of checkers. That WAS a DEADLY insurrection.
..........One person brought a knife into Nancy Pelosi's room. On Jan 5th there was a discussion about bringing guns and a few were found in one truck outside the capital. The Jan 6th insurrection was a perfect example of the tension that exists today throughout society. You add tension with the easy Assessability to GUNS and you have the reason for our last 2 MASS MURDERS being only 10 days apart. The immediate future holds GREAT potential for even INCREASED mass murders. The SOLUTION is to look at what other democratic countries have done to SOLVE their GUN problems.

Why didn't you also mention the ANTIFA and BLM riots where over $2 Billion in destroyed property and a number of murders. Did they not take over police stations, a whole city block and vandalize office buildings of various levels of government? Were these not acts of anarchism and sedition.?

[MartinSE]

broken homes, no parental supervision, easy killing video games, internet, social media, what did i miss.. if the teachers were armed this would not have happened, if an armed officer was in the school this would not have happened, if the doors were closed and locked as required, this would not have happened. i will not get political, but dam, wake up!!!!!

A dozen armed officers did not stop the one shooter. Yet you expect a teacher to go head to head with a ten high on adrenaline, firing two semiautomatic, when the teach is armed with one.

Who do you think the shooter is going to target first. When the shoot comes into the room unexpected and fires as fire as possible at the teacher. Do you want to be standing at the black board with your back to the classroom door?

I expect the main result of arming teachers is most teacher will quit.

[Number 10 GI]

Agreed. There should be a single point of entry with security, Biometric ID checking, and metal detectors. Plastic guns would still get through, so, I am not sure how that can be handled properly and in a way that can be afforded. Remember there are 130,000 K-12 schools in the US.

"Plastic Guns":1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

You watch too much television. It will still require a steel barrel and other steel parts to safely fire a bullet, which any metal detector will pick up.

[Number 10 GI]

Between 70% and 90% of American favor universal background checks. And Congress won’t pass a law to require them.

Universal checks won't have any impact on criminals. For the most part they steal them, buy them from an illegal seller of guns or use a straw purchaser. A straw purchaser is usually a family member or significant other who isn't a prohibited person. This person legally buys the gun and completes a background check, takes possession of the gun and then gives it to the prohibited individual. How will a universal check counter that?

[affald]

One needs to truly understand the reasons that these crazy shooters slip thru the cracks, again and again.

Google things like.. The Continuing Need to Rethink Discipline

It's not rocket science or brain surgery.

[Number 10 GI]

Thank goodness Florida got on this issue after Parkland and passed much more rigorous laws for background checks and extended waiting to buy guns.

It would serve congress well to examine our laws. They are some of the strictest in the US and passed by a majority of conservatives and NRA members.

How would a waiting period have stopped the shooter in New Mexico? He purchased the rifles days before the shooting. I don't know of any school shootings where the shooter did his killing the same day as buying the gun.

[Number 10 GI]

Why then are children SAFER in schools in other countries than the US. They are doing things right, we are doing things wrong!

So what are the things they are doing in these other countries? Please don't say gun bans stop violence, there are still knives, bludgeons, fists, feet and any number of potential weapons. What are their assault rates with these weapons? If those rates are lower than ours, how does a gun ban cause that?

I guess removing the evil talisman guns also removes the evil spirits that force a sane person to become evil.

[dewilson58]

This is very true, but, do we need to make it easy for them.?

Fun Fact:

Of all our friends in prison, less than 2% purchased a gun from a retailer.

Less than 2%.

[Number 10 GI]

I agree with you about "the revolution" - that's just a right wing wet dream. But, just who is everyone afraid of? On my little 3 block street here in TV there are at least 75-100 AR15s sitting in people's closets. Very few who have one have just one. They take them down to Shooter's World and pay another small fortune to blast away for a while, so they are good and ready for something. They have been told that that TV is a "soft target" (whatever that means) - more like TV is full of gullible old fools.

Apparently you have been living in TV too long. There are neighborhoods in this country where people are afraid to walk the street due to gang wars, drug deals and prostitution. Unfortunately these gang wars have spread outside of the bad neighborhoods. Did you not see the news reports of shootings in downtown areas in broad daylight? There are home invasions and car jackings going on all the time in large and small cities.

[Number 10 GI]

I believe that there are a lot of sane gun owners. I have enjoyed hunting and shooting at targets (note......I would NEVER shoot at pictures of humans, always a bullseye only) That is NOT the problem. The problem is the type of rifle (something with a 30-round mag) and the sheer number of guns in civilian hands. And the strange recent increase.
........Canada is worried about itself (and its proximity to the US). Canada recognizes the problem. The US has become mentally deranged by the GUN manufacturers' propaganda and advertisements. The ads for the gun used by the shooter at Robb Elementary showed a 3 or 4-year-old seemingly desirous of their AR-15 clone. That is SICK!

Bludgeons are responsible for more deaths that rifles in this country.

[jimbomaybe]

Apparently you have been living in TV too long. There are neighborhoods in this country where people are afraid to walk the street due to gang wars, drug deals and prostitution. Unfortunately these gang wars have spread outside of the bad neighborhoods. Did you not see the news reports of shootings in downtown areas in broad daylight? There are home invasions and car jackings going on all the time in large and small cities.

Why I no longer live in Chicago

[jimjamuser]

In Viet Nam the infantry soldier had to hump for miles in sweltering jungle conditions carrying his ammo basic load, rifle and a rucksack loaded down with other necessities. In the Sand Box soldiers humped in temperatures like an oven, carrying even more equipment than the Viet Nam vets. Some rucksacks could top 80 lbs. in weight. This demonstrated the advantages of a lightweight rifle shooting a light caliber round.

All your points are germane to a soldier in combat. None of this provided an advantage in any the school shootings or other shootings involving the AR15. All of them simply walked in an unguarded, unwatched door from their parked vehicle. The difference in ammo weight means nothing either.

The round the Model 1907 uses is similar in capability to the venerable 30-30 Winchester but both are capable rounds for deer withing their range limitation. The recoil from a .351 and time needed to get back on target really causes no limitation in rate of fire when the shooter is in a small classroom with children huddled in a corner. The .351 will more than likely penetrate 2 or more small statured children where as the 5.56 will most likely be stopped by one body. The .351 will inflict much more grievous wounds than the AR15 bullet. Typical ammo for the .351 is soft nose hunting ammo that is designed to expand when it hits flesh or bone, creating a large wound channel to cause a quick bleed out and death. The 5.56 is an effective round but it doesn't "explode", that is urban myth and it cannot create the devastating wounds the .351 can cause.

These "significant differences" mean nothing outside of the combat environment.
The 223 is a high-velocity cartridge and with civilian lead soft-noes bullets would leave a large exit wound often described as "exploding". That's why the children's own parents could NOT recognize their faces. Their heads were pulverized. They had to use DNA identification. That's the reality, NOT an "urban legend". Brass covered military bullets poke holes and don't expand as per the Geneva convention.

[jimjamuser]

Why didn't you also mention the ANTIFA and BLM riots where over $2 Billion in destroyed property and a number of murders. Did they not take over police stations, a whole city block and vandalize office buildings of various levels of government? Were these not acts of anarchism and sedition.?
No, they were just greedy criminals acting spontaneously To take advantage of police not being able to be everywhere. Jan 6th was a PLANNED attempt at a US government TAKEOVER - a COMPLETELY different animal! In a few days, the Jan 6th Committee will PROVE that to all with a flexible, open mind.

[jimjamuser]

Why didn't you also mention the ANTIFA and BLM riots where over $2 Billion in destroyed property and a number of murders. Did they not take over police stations, a whole city block and vandalize office buildings of various levels of government? Were these not acts of anarchism and sedition.?
A perfect example of "whataboutism" normally used by children in the lower grades.

[jimjamuser]

How would a waiting period have stopped the shooter in New Mexico? He purchased the rifles days before the shooting. I don't know of any school shootings where the shooter did his killing the same day as buying the gun.
A waiting period is good because it allows the EMOTIONS OF THE MOMENT to settle down.

[jimjamuser]

Bludgeons are responsible for more deaths that rifles in this country.
Same for ANY country. We are trying to compare countries by their relevant factors here, not introduce extraneous factors to confuse the subject.

[Woodbear]

Thank you for your personal attack, in fact it was a pro-gun/anti-gun control poster that first brought up plastic guns as a way around gun controls. Funny how he was not accused of trolling.

So, I will just change plastic gun to bat or knife will get through which we have been assured are just as deadly as guns

You are in more danger of being killed by a knife, bat, fist or foot than being shot by ANY rifle, let alone a "scary black" one.

[jdulej]

Apparently you have been living in TV too long. There are neighborhoods in this country where people are afraid to walk the street due to gang wars, drug deals and prostitution. Unfortunately these gang wars have spread outside of the bad neighborhoods. Did you not see the news reports of shootings in downtown areas in broad daylight? There are home invasions and car jackings going on all the time in large and small cities.
You are correct, there are some areas (maybe 1 or 2% of the country, all in poor urban areas) that are like a war zone. I've yet to hear of a good guys save the day with AR-15s event in any of those.
There is zero chance of gang warfare breaking out in TV

[jdulej]

So what are the things they are doing in these other countries? Please don't say gun bans stop violence, there are still knives, bludgeons, fists, feet and any number of potential weapons. What are their assault rates with these weapons? If those rates are lower than ours, how does a gun ban cause that?

I guess removing the evil talisman guns also removes the evil spirits that force a sane person to become evil.
You miss the point that most of the mass killers are cowards. It would take a certain amount of nerve to wade into a crowd with just a club or a knife. Much easier and satisfying to stand back and blast away. All the advertising reminds these nuts that real men shoot guns!

[Normal]

How would a waiting period have stopped the shooter in New Mexico? He purchased the rifles days before the shooting. I don't know of any school shootings where the shooter did his killing the same day as buying the gun.
No law is 100 percent fool proof, so that can't and isn't the expectation. Obviously we have people who are crazy.

The schools need to be hardened just like the airports were. Times change. Whether it is 9/11 and Bin Laden or school shootings we evolve and learn.

[Caymus]

You are correct, there are some areas (maybe 1 or 2% of the country, all in poor urban areas) that are like a war zone. I've yet to hear of a good guys save the day with AR-15s event in any of those.
There is zero chance of gang warfare breaking out in TV

Try 10 or 20%.

[MartinSE]

Fun Fact:

Of all our friends in prison, less than 2% purchased a gun from a retailer.

Less than 2%.

Like this shooting, and let's see a few months ago some parents bought their son a gun?

And how many mass shooters survived and went to jail?

Or the Buffalo shooting a little while back that a dealer sold him the gun.

The only place I could find your 2% number of at the FBI site for 1996. For 2016 the number is similar but higher. But the numbers come from "ASKING" the prisoner how and where they got their guns. Not a very credible source.

From the FBI in 2016:

"Prisoners who reported that they had purchased a firearm from a licensed firearm dealer at a retail source were further asked whether they bought the firearm under their own name and whether they knew a background check was conducted. Among those who had possessed a firearm during the offense for which they were imprisoned, 7% of state and 8% of federal prisoners had purchased it under their own name from a licensed firearm dealer at a retail source, while approximately 1% of state and 2% of federal prisoners had purchased a firearm from a licensed dealer at a retail source but did not purchase it under their own name (not shown in table)."

15% from dealers and 1% to 2% under someone else's names.

Also, 2016 didn't summarize the other source, but 1996 did (not very good for today) but the other sources included private sales, shows, etc. Which don't do background checks.

You left those out:

Also, of "our friends in prison" over 60% were in prison for nonweapons-related charges (sex, robbery, and the BIG one drugs).

So, let's go with you, since criminals are getting guns in other places how do you propose we stop that?

[MartinSE]

Apparently you have been living in TV too long. There are neighborhoods in this country where people are afraid to walk the street due to gang wars, drug deals and prostitution. Unfortunately these gang wars have spread outside of the bad neighborhoods. Did you not see the news reports of shootings in downtown areas in broad daylight? There are home invasions and car jackings going on all the time in large and small cities.

And those gang wars are largely funded via sales of drugs and sex trafficking. Legalizing drugs would take away that source of funds (you know that pays for a 14-year-old drug deal to purchase an expensive weapon)

The post was about "revolution", and your post was about crime. Could you connect those two?

[MartinSE]

You are in more danger of being killed by a knife, bat, fist or foot than being shot by ANY rifle, let alone a "scary black" one.

So? really, we are talking about a significant rise in school shootings in the past couple of years. Knives, bats, fists, and feet are NOT used in mass murders.

Thank god I don't have to worry about mass murder by fists imagine killing 20 people in a class by beating them to death.

Thank you for the "what aboutism"

[MartinSE]

Try 10 or 20%.

Of the population, not of the country area/towns/cities, etc. And the posted agreed in big cities gangs are a problem.

[jebartle]

Unfortunately, statistics can say or not say whatever the poster wants to conclude. Sure hope gridlock is not the answer, and congress has a real solution.

[Normal]

Just ban humans, because there lies the problem. A gun would sit there without them.

[Sarah_W]

The 223 is a high-velocity cartridge and with civilian lead soft-noes bullets would leave a large exit wound often described as "exploding". That's why the children's own parents could NOT recognize their faces. Their heads were pulverized. They had to use DNA identification. That's the reality, NOT an "urban legend". Brass covered military bullets poke holes and don't expand as per the Geneva convention.

There is not such thing as a soft nosed .223 round.

[Sarah_W]

Unfortunately, I am forced to agree with you. There is enough of a base of unwavering 2nd amendment supporters to stop any serious change. To them, having a few hundred innocents slaughtered is worth it. They don't want to say it out loud, but the fact that they offer no solutions and are against any limitations or management of gun ownership (not getting anywhere near saying gun banning - that ship has sailed) leads me to that horrible statement above - they just don't care.
Most likely, we need to wait for the baby boomer generation to die out. The NRA is fading, thank god, due to massive corruption at the top, so they should not be much of a player in a few years. That leaves the manufacturers, some of whom use absolutely disgusting marketing and sales techniques.

How can you draw such conclusions? It is absolutely ridiculous to believe and suggest that law abiding gun owners are not concerned with murder victims. In my opinion, it is quite the opposite. I believe it is actually those who are ignorant of firearm ownership and safety that are the root cause of murder in our country. DA's in major blue cities not prosecuting crimes. Violent criminals being released to terrorize our cities. There is at least one mass shooting every single month in Chicago and the authorities there do nothing about it. The same can be said for Los Angeles, St. Louis, Baltimore, to name a few. These are issues that law abiding gun owners discuss at length but do not have the voting numbers to override the corrupt people elected to office in these cities.

I've offered solutions to school shootings at the most common response from our friends left of center is "we shouldn't have to send our kids to a "prison".". There are 63,000 schools in the U.S. If everyone did what a high school in Indiana did, there would be no more mass school shootings. Anyone who would like to see their solution go on YouTube and look for "Inside The Safest School in America". It cost $400K to retrofit that school. That equates to $20 billion to retrofit every school in America. That is how you stop mass shootings in school. That is half what we just sent to Ukraine for their "needs". The solution lies with our elected leaders so tell your Representative to support such an effort.

The problem is not Baby Boomers. They are not the killers. You're looking at the wrong generation.

The NRA is 5 million law abiding gun enthusiasts. Without people like me there is no NRA. The majority work done by the NRA revolves around gun safety programs and education. I'd love to hear what you think it is. Additionally, there are dozens of other non-profit gun rights organizations.

Point out the marketing techniques that you find so disturbing. There are no commercials on television advertising guns or ammo. They market in gun magazines and trade shows.

[MartinSE]

How can you draw such conclusions? It is absolutely ridiculous to believe and suggest that law abiding gun owners are not concerned with murder victims. In my opinion, it is quite the opposite. I believe it is actually those who are ignorant of firearm ownership and safety that are the root cause of murder in our country. DA's in major blue cities not prosecuting crimes. Violent criminals being released to terrorize our cities. There is at least one mass shooting every single month in Chicago and the authorities there do nothing about it. The same can be said for Los Angeles, St. Louis, Baltimore, to name a few. These are issues that law abiding gun owners discuss at length but do not have the voting numbers to override the corrupt people elected to office in these cities.

I've offered solutions to school shootings at the most common response from our friends left of center is "we shouldn't have to send our kids to a "prison".". There are 63,000 schools in the U.S. If everyone did what a high school in Indiana did, there would be no more mass school shootings. Anyone who would like to see their solution go on YouTube and look for "Inside The Safest School in America". It cost $400K to retrofit that school. That equates to $20 billion to retrofit every school in America. That is how you stop mass shootings in school. That is half what we just sent to Ukraine for their "needs". The solution lies with our elected leaders so tell your Representative to support such an effort.

The problem is not Baby Boomers. They are not the killers. You're looking at the wrong generation.

The NRA is 5 million law abiding gun enthusiasts. Without people like me there is no NRA. The majority work done by the NRA revolves around gun safety programs and education. I'd love to hear what you think it is. Additionally, there are dozens of other non-profit gun rights organizations.

Point out the marketing techniques that you find so disturbing. There are no commercials on television advertising guns or ammo. They market in gun magazines and trade shows.

Absolutely.

Law-abiding gun owners are not the problem. The liberals are not the problem either.

The NRA is borderline. It used to be about gun owners, I believe it has changed a lot in the last decade, and it is now more of a mouthpiece for the gun manufacturers. But, I could be wrong.

The problem is the extremists and the criminals.

Meantime we can be assured if we count on Congress to fix things, things will only get worse.

The SOLUTION is for "normal" law-abiding citizens to take action, find a solution we can live with, and save the next batch of children that will be murdered soon - despite everyone's "thoughts and prayers"

[Sarah_W]

When you're shooting into a crowd and hoping to hit as many people as possible with no singular target in mind, then accuracy doesn't matter much.

The more shots you can fire in a short period of time, the more likely you'll hit a lot of people. That's why these weapons are the weapons of choice for *mass shooters*. As opposed to - rocks, knives, single-shot rifles and pistols, 6-shooters, crossbows, baseball bats, a car, or a chainsaw (for example).

Your theory has already been debunked. A simple Google search would show you the weapon of choice for mass shooters and school shooters is a semi-auto handgun, NOT the AR platform that seems to scare the bejesus out of you. Since I know your Google Fu is top notch then must assume it was just laziness on your part, or a poor assumption as I did previously.

This killer in Uvalde locked himself in a classroom and killed the two adults and 19 children in that classroom. He did not need an AR to accomplish the same task. He could have used a 12 ga. pump shotgun and still massacred the same 21 victims in under 2 or 3 minutes. Whether you kill 21 people in 1 minute or 2 minutes the outcome is the same. As long as nobody engages the killer, the killing will continue until he is out of ammunition, offs himself, or someone else stops him. Unarmed victims will NEVER be able to stop an armed killer.

Ban AR's and determined killers will choose another weapon and achieve the same infamy they seek.

The percentage of households with firearms has been decreasing since 1972 when the data began to be collected. Simple logic dictates as our population increases the number of firearms will increase. The percentage of ownership however is decreasing.

Also, guns have been in common use in our country for over 300 years. But for the past 30 years we suddenly have a problem. Why?

[Normal]

The problem is not Baby Boomers. They are not the killers. You're looking at the wrong generation.

The NRA is 5 million law abiding gun enthusiasts. Without people like me there is no NRA. The majority work done by the NRA revolves around gun safety programs and education. I'd love to hear what you think it is. Additionally, there are dozens of other non-profit gun rights organizations.

Point out the marketing techniques that you find so disturbing. There are no commercials on television advertising guns or ammo. They market in gun magazines and trade shows.


SPOT ON...there are basic rules in this universe. You reap what you sew. A child who is raised by video games and movies that glorify murder finds enjoyment in them. Will they all carry that forward into pragmatism....probably not. Will some....probably.

[MartinSE]

Your theory has already been debunked. A simple Google search would show you the weapon of choice for mass shooters and school shooters is a semi-auto handgun, NOT the AR platform that seems to scare the bejesus out of you. Since I know your Google Fu is top notch then must assume it was just laziness on your part, or a poor assumption as I did previously.

This killer in Uvalde locked himself in a classroom and killed the two adults and 19 children in that classroom. He did not need an AR to accomplish the same task. He could have used a 12 ga. pump shotgun and still massacred the same 21 victims in under 2 or 3 minutes. Whether you kill 21 people in 1 minute or 2 minutes the outcome is the same. As long as nobody engages the killer, the killing will continue until he is out of ammunition, offs himself, or someone else stops him. Unarmed victims will NEVER be able to stop an armed killer.

Ban AR's and determined killers will choose another weapon and achieve the same infamy they seek.

The percentage of households with firearms has been decreasing since 1972 when the data began to be collected. Simple logic dictates as our population increases the number of firearms will increase. The percentage of ownership however is decreasing.

Also, guns have been in common use in our country for over 300 years. But for the past 30 years we suddenly have a problem. Why?

All, true, except you, left off a point. As the number of people that own guns have decreased (I think around 40% to around 30% of households since 1970?) the total number of guns has increased significantly. This means fewer people have more guns.

[Sarah_W]

All, true, except you, left off a point. As the number of people that own guns have decreased (I think around 40% to around 30% of households since 1970?) the total number of guns has increased significantly. This means fewer people have more guns.

That is totally correct. People buy multiple firearms for a variety of reasons. Personally, knowing that NATO rounds are the 9mm, .45acp, .223/5.56, .308/7.62 and 12ga shotgun, I have at least one of each. I have several for hunting, target shooting, self defense, and for the students I teach. Each has a different purpose. Then again, i don't think owning 20 guitars is a bad idea either.

[Lindsyburnsy]

19 innocent children, 2 dedicated teachers, lives lost, solution????? More guns, bigger prisons, NOT. Japan, no guns unless police and military, murder rate .3 percent per 100,000, America, 4.7 per 100,000. Mental health wake up call.
The solution is obvious to everyone but the people that can do something about it.

[Lindsyburnsy]

Romaine gets yanked because a few people got sick. Mass shooting and the answer is give more guns to people. Perfectly logical.

[MartinSE]

Romaine gets yanked because a few people got sick. Mass shooting and the answer is give more guns to people. Perfectly logical.

Romaine doesn’t kill, people kill. If no one ate it no one would die.

[jebartle]

The solution is obvious to everyone but the people that can do something about it.

50 senators represent 30% of the nation, but control 100% of gun control solutions.

[jimjamuser]

You are in more danger of being killed by a knife, bat, fist or foot than being shot by ANY rifle, let alone a "scary black" one.
That just proves that Canada is doing the RIGHT thing by wanting to ban all handguns AND MILITARY STYLE semi-auto rifles. Canadian citizens would still be able to hunt and defend their homes. I guess that Canada does not have the equivalence of the US NRA that would PREFER that every US citizen own a rifle with a 100-round banana mag and a grenade launcher. The "slippery slope" has somehow defied gravity in the US - it is a "slippery slope" upward and at Robb Elementry the bad guy was slipping on children's blood.

[jimjamuser]

Like this shooting, and let's see a few months ago some parents bought their son a gun?

And how many mass shooters survived and went to jail?

Or the Buffalo shooting a little while back that a dealer sold him the gun.

The only place I could find your 2% number of at the FBI site for 1996. For 2016 the number is similar but higher. But the numbers come from "ASKING" the prisoner how and where they got their guns. Not a very credible source.

From the FBI in 2016:

"Prisoners who reported that they had purchased a firearm from a licensed firearm dealer at a retail source were further asked whether they bought the firearm under their own name and whether they knew a background check was conducted. Among those who had possessed a firearm during the offense for which they were imprisoned, 7% of state and 8% of federal prisoners had purchased it under their own name from a licensed firearm dealer at a retail source, while approximately 1% of state and 2% of federal prisoners had purchased a firearm from a licensed dealer at a retail source but did not purchase it under their own name (not shown in table)."

15% from dealers and 1% to 2% under someone else's names.

Also, 2016 didn't summarize the other source, but 1996 did (not very good for today) but the other sources included private sales, shows, etc. Which don't do background checks.

You left those out:

Also, of "our friends in prison" over 60% were in prison for nonweapons-related charges (sex, robbery, and the BIG one drugs).

So, let's go with you, since criminals are getting guns in other places how do you propose we stop that?
I propose that the only way to stop a large percentage of mass murders is to reduce magazine capacity to 5 rounds and stop selling semi-auto rifles to civilians - BECAUSE that worked for Australia and New Zealand (mass murders went to almost ZERO.
.........And Canada now wants to do something about their mass murder and GUN crimes. They know that they can NOT change the number of people with mental problems (too ambiguous) or stop video games (NOT a factor in other countries). But, GUNS are a TANGIBLE problem that can be worked with, as other counties have (not including the US which IS the STUBBORN OUTLIER).

[jimjamuser]

Unfortunately, statistics can say or not say whatever the poster wants to conclude. Sure hope gridlock is not the answer, and congress has a real solution.
At best, I predict a small facsimile of a solution - maybe like more teeth in the Red Flag laws. I doubt they will be able to do something meaningful like reducing magazine capacity to 5 rounds. Washington will make a small change around the edges. Then pat themselves on the back for wonderfully working together in a non-partisan manner!
........And likely, as they celebrate, more mass murders will break out this summer. More funerals!

[jimjamuser]

There is not such thing as a soft nosed .223 round.
Winchester civilian brand......used to be called silver tips and Remington civilian brand....used to be called core-locks. Rut whatever they are called, they are designed for maximum expansion in small game and deer. In the Robb Elementary case, the small game was young children. That is why (like I said) those shot in the head could NOT be identified by their own parents. It IS gory to say, but the reality is that their poor little brains, head, and face were turned into unrecognizable mush. Therefore the need for DNA testing. High-velocity soft point civilian rifle ammo expand like an "explosion" in soft flesh!

[Sarah_W]

I propose that the only way to stop a large percentage of mass murders is to reduce magazine capacity to 5 rounds and stop selling semi-auto rifles to civilians - BECAUSE that worked for Australia and New Zealand (mass murders went to almost ZERO.
.........And Canada now wants to do something about their mass murder and GUN crimes. They know that they can NOT change the number of people with mental problems (too ambiguous) or stop video games (NOT a factor in other countries). But, GUNS are a TANGIBLE problem that can be worked with, as other counties have (not including the US which IS the STUBBORN OUTLIER).

I propose we stop all school shootings by implementing solutions similar to Southwestern High School in Indiana.

[jimjamuser]

How can you draw such conclusions? It is absolutely ridiculous to believe and suggest that law abiding gun owners are not concerned with murder victims. In my opinion, it is quite the opposite. I believe it is actually those who are ignorant of firearm ownership and safety that are the root cause of murder in our country. DA's in major blue cities not prosecuting crimes. Violent criminals being released to terrorize our cities. There is at least one mass shooting every single month in Chicago and the authorities there do nothing about it. The same can be said for Los Angeles, St. Louis, Baltimore, to name a few. These are issues that law abiding gun owners discuss at length but do not have the voting numbers to override the corrupt people elected to office in these cities.

I've offered solutions to school shootings at the most common response from our friends left of center is "we shouldn't have to send our kids to a "prison".". There are 63,000 schools in the U.S. If everyone did what a high school in Indiana did, there would be no more mass school shootings. Anyone who would like to see their solution go on YouTube and look for "Inside The Safest School in America". It cost $400K to retrofit that school. That equates to $20 billion to retrofit every school in America. That is how you stop mass shootings in school. That is half what we just sent to Ukraine for their "needs". The solution lies with our elected leaders so tell your Representative to support such an effort.

The problem is not Baby Boomers. They are not the killers. You're looking at the wrong generation.

The NRA is 5 million law abiding gun enthusiasts. Without people like me there is no NRA. The majority work done by the NRA revolves around gun safety programs and education. I'd love to hear what you think it is. Additionally, there are dozens of other non-profit gun rights organizations.

Point out the marketing techniques that you find so disturbing. There are no commercials on television advertising guns or ammo. They market in gun magazines and trade shows.
I already pointed out in an earlier post about a gun advertisement on TV that was inappropriate. The gun used by the Robb Elementary mass murderer is known to advertise to YOUNGER shooters. I saw one where their military-style rifle was placed upon the lap of about a 3 or 4-year-old boy (white race). he looked at it admiringly. They also included some dumb ___ verbiage about him growing up to be wonderful BECAUSE of the gun.
........Nobody is saying that legitimate gun-owning or owners are BAD. But, we have had TWO mass murders in the recent 10-day span. In both cases, the weapon of choice was a low-recoil, 223 cal semi-auto AR-15 style rifle with large-capacity magazines. I heard today that the last 10 mass shootings had a similar weapon of choice. The low recoil is a big factor that allows inexperienced young shooters to be able to KILL efficiently.
........A good compromise at this point would be requiring an age of 21 to purchase any firearms. And allowing no magazine with over 5 rounds to be sold to civilians.
.........At this point, it is compromise or live with the US being the country with the most firearms crimes and deaths in the 1st world - with children being afraid to go to school - with human, adult and children, having constant suffering.

[jimjamuser]

Absolutely.

Law-abiding gun owners are not the problem. The liberals are not the problem either.

The NRA is borderline. It used to be about gun owners, I believe it has changed a lot in the last decade, and it is now more of a mouthpiece for the gun manufacturers. But, I could be wrong.

The problem is the extremists and the criminals.

Meantime we can be assured if we count on Congress to fix things, things will only get worse.

The SOLUTION is for "normal" law-abiding citizens to take action, find a solution we can live with, and save the next batch of children that will be murdered soon - despite everyone's "thoughts and prayers"
Good post! Kudos.

[jimjamuser]

Your theory has already been debunked. A simple Google search would show you the weapon of choice for mass shooters and school shooters is a semi-auto handgun, NOT the AR platform that seems to scare the bejesus out of you. Since I know your Google Fu is top notch then must assume it was just laziness on your part, or a poor assumption as I did previously.

This killer in Uvalde locked himself in a classroom and killed the two adults and 19 children in that classroom. He did not need an AR to accomplish the same task. He could have used a 12 ga. pump shotgun and still massacred the same 21 victims in under 2 or 3 minutes. Whether you kill 21 people in 1 minute or 2 minutes the outcome is the same. As long as nobody engages the killer, the killing will continue until he is out of ammunition, offs himself, or someone else stops him. Unarmed victims will NEVER be able to stop an armed killer.

Ban AR's and determined killers will choose another weapon and achieve the same infamy they seek.

The percentage of households with firearms has been decreasing since 1972 when the data began to be collected. Simple logic dictates as our population increases the number of firearms will increase. The percentage of ownership however is decreasing.

Also, guns have been in common use in our country for over 300 years. But for the past 30 years we suddenly have a problem. Why?
I find fault with 2 of the statements. Unarmed victims DO often find ways to disable the shooter. Recently, in California, a shooter locked a door of a church in an Asian community. A clergy member hit him with a chair and captured him.
........My opinion is to SLOW DOWN the rate of fire of the mass murderer by making him reload small capacity magazines (like 5 rounds) - that gives people nearby time to throw rocks, or other objects at him and/or make their escape. I would sell only bolt-action rifles and pistols. Australia did that and it has prevented THEIR mass murders. Australia and New Zealand did NOT suddenly get taken over by criminals or commie leftists. It WOULD work in the US.
.........And things are very different today in the US than in the past. The last 2 years have seen a 30% increase in US civilian GUN ownership - these are not hunting and target guns. I have written my opinion as to the reason for this increase in my past posts. This IS a DRASTIC CHANGE that can't be ignored.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

The solution is obvious to everyone but the people that can do something about it.

The solution isn't obvious, because it's complex. However, it wouldn't matter because the people who can do something about it do not WANT to do something about it. The people who WANT to do something about it, who are in government, are hamstrung by the minority in government who block any attempt to make progress.

[Number 10 GI]

Trying to use logic with a person who only operates on emotion is like trying to carry on a conversation with a drunk. No critical thinking ability at all.

[jimjamuser]

All, true, except you, left off a point. As the number of people that own guns have decreased (I think around 40% to around 30% of households since 1970?) the total number of guns has increased significantly. This means fewer people have more guns.
The number of hunters has decreased. That's why the GUN manufacturers and their mouthpiece, the NRA, realized that MORE PROFITS were to be made by propagandizing Americans to THINK that they NEEDED military rifles to protect themselves. The paintball games got young people used to shooting at humans, the same for video games. The GUN makers got rich and more people died. In 1994, GUN laws were made more lenient to satisfy the GUN makers - the NRA owned Congress.
..........The best hope today is to limit MAGAZINE size and raise the age for GUN purchases. Ideally, the US should look to Australia for solutions. But, until enough people know someone in their own family that has died in a GUN crime, US people will continue on their bloody stubborn ways!

[jimjamuser]

That is totally correct. People buy multiple firearms for a variety of reasons. Personally, knowing that NATO rounds are the 9mm, .45acp, .223/5.56, .308/7.62 and 12ga shotgun, I have at least one of each. I have several for hunting, target shooting, self defense, and for the students I teach. Each has a different purpose. Then again, i don't think owning 20 guitars is a bad idea either.
Maybe then, the BEST situation would be to own a 9 mm semi-automatic guitar with a banana clip.

[Sarah_W]

Maybe then, the BEST situation would be to own a 9 mm semi-automatic guitar with a banana clip.

I've posted at least 3 times about Southwestern High school in Indiana which spent $400k to secure their school from a mass shooter being able to carry out such an event. We can retrofit all 63,000 schools in our country for $20billion. It is a solution that would stop all mass school shootings. That seems the best solution to me.

[jimjamuser]

I propose we stop all school shootings by implementing solutions similar to Southwestern High School in Indiana.
That would help ! The problem is to get ALL the PUBLIC school districts in ALL the US to be willing to INCREASE their property taxes enough to pay the costs of that "HARDENING" of schools. I would VOTE for that!

[Number 10 GI]

I've posted at least 3 times about Southwestern High school in Indiana which spent $400k to secure their school from a mass shooter being able to carry out such an event. We can retrofit all 63,000 schools in our country for $20billion. It is a solution that would stop all mass school shootings. That seems the best solution to me.

Sarah, read my post, #837.

[Sarah_W]

Sarah, read my post, #837.

Agreed.

It seems we have half our population who believe that majority rule should overrule minority rights. Our Founding Fathers were so much smarter than we are today. They created a system of self governance that didn't exist in their time. It was brilliant. Power Elites have been slowing dismantling it over generations. Remove one Liberty at a time and the People don't seem to notice. Franklin was correct.

[Normal]

If the question is actually “What percentage of criminals legally buy a gun and commit a crime with it,” the percentage is extremely small. The last data suggests that a fraction of one percent of those who commit a gun related crime will legally purchase a gun and then commit a crime with it. Most of those crimes are “crimes of domestic violence,” essentially crimes of passion, and the gun happened to be in the house. If no gun were present, some other weapon, knives, clubs, fists or something else, would have been used instead. While the overwhelming majority of professional criminals will use stolen “street guns” that are cheap but very definitely illegal.

However, if the question is “What percentage of crimes are committed with legally purchased guns” the answer is about six percent of murders – and very few other crimes. Amateurs buy guns at a dealers; which involves extensive paperwork, identification, FBI background checks, and so on. Pros buy guns on the street, where the only requirement is money – or other valuta.

The shooting in Uvalde was appalling. No one wants to see this repeated, but obviously the facts speak for themselves. The only solution is to harden soft targets like schools. I didn’t like the airport changes either, but I did get used to the TSA.

[coralway]

"Your dead kids don’t trump my constitutional rights" ............. .Joe the Plumber

[Number 10 GI]

"Your dead kids don’t trump my constitutional rights" ............. .Joe the Plumber

An example of my post #837

[jimbomaybe]

That would help ! The problem is to get ALL the PUBLIC school districts in ALL the US to be willing to INCREASE their property taxes enough to pay the costs of that "HARDENING" of schools. I would VOTE for that!

You seem very active on this subject, I have asked previously why years ago when you could buy semi auto rifles through the mail, no questions, mass shootings were very rare, what has changed?

[Number 10 GI]

No, they were just greedy criminals acting spontaneously To take advantage of police not being able to be everywhere. Jan 6th was a PLANNED attempt at a US government TAKEOVER - a COMPLETELY different animal! In a few days, the Jan 6th Committee will PROVE that to all with a flexible, open mind.

Remember the movie, A Few Good Men? "You can't handle the truth!" Jack Nicholson's character Colonel Nathan R. Jessep. Antifa is an anarchist organization whose intent is the destruction of our system of government. Have you been paying attention to the news reports on BLM's leadership? Brother of the leader of the organization being given lucrative security contracts worth huge money. The mansions they have bought, huge salaries, and luxurious living for the leadership using money donated to the organization. Sounds like a lot of greedy criminals to me!

[Number 10 GI]

So what are the things they are doing in these other countries? Please don't say gun bans stop violence, there are still knives, bludgeons, fists, feet and any number of potential weapons. What are their assault rates with these weapons? If those rates are lower than ours, how does a gun ban cause that?

I guess removing the evil talisman guns also removes the evil spirits that force a sane person to become evil.

(Tapping on my microphone) Testing, testing. Jim, Jim why haven't you answered my question?

[billethkid]

You seem very active on this subject, I have asked previously why years ago when you could buy semi auto rifles through the mail, no questions, mass shootings were very rare, what has changed?

We have become the permissive society!!!

Thou shalt not do or say anything to might upset anybody....taking action to do what is right or correct is just shy of no longer permissible.....regardless the impact/results!

The current wave of lawlessness and the drive to do away with the police being prime examples!

[jimjamuser]

You seem very active on this subject, I have asked previously why years ago when you could buy semi auto rifles through the mail, no questions, mass shootings were very rare, what has changed?
Life has changed. No one ever guaranteed us that everything would ALWAYS stay the same. When (maybe 1950 to 1970) you could buy mail-order guns the population of the US was about 150 million people. Today it is about 350 million. That is one big and powerful change. We did NOT outsource everything to China then. A lot of legal and illegal immigration has happened since then. Diversity is considered to be good, but when is diversity too much? When is population too much? When does too much population outgrow a nearly fixed road system? Just drive on I-75 anytime around Atlanta to answer that
.........Basically, ALL of society has changed since someone could buy a GUN with no questions asked by mail order. Around 1981 all federal mental health institutes were closed. That certainly didn't HELP keep society stable and mass murders down. It's hard to compare one time period that was 60 some years from today, with today, just NOT possible. Gang violence and drug violence barely existed in the era of mail-order guns. In 1981, public schools did NOT have 30 kids in one classroom. Today, the overcrowding prevents almost all of the teachers from keeping order and encouraging learning and success in their students. Most school districts won't raise property taxes to hire enough teachers and staff. The US had a strong middle class around the 1950s. Today the middle class barely exists.
.........There are MANY reasons why society has gotten MORE violent today. When you combine More violence with MORE AVAILABILITY OF guns, you get MORE mass murders. Society has changed and seems more WILLING to accept more Mass murders. I worry about this summer coming up!

[jimbomaybe]

Remember the movie, A Few Good Men? "You can't handle the truth!" Jack Nicholson's character Colonel Nathan R. Jessep. Antifa is an anarchist organization whose intent is the destruction of our system of government. Have you been paying attention to the news reports on BLM's leadership? Brother of the leader of the organization being given lucrative security contracts worth huge money. The mansions they have bought, huge salaries, and luxurious living for the leadership using money donated to the organization. Sounds like a lot of greedy criminals to me!
If I remember right at one time Antifa's own web site ID themselves as Marxist, "the gulag archipelago" has a line in it We knew we (Marxist) won when the person in the street no longer supported the police. The 6th of Jan group was hardly all a bunch of revolutionaries , certainly a small benighted number thought they could some how change things in the streets of Washington, the greatest numbers by far were upset with the election, but blowing it out of proportion make a better story and fits the narrative

[jimjamuser]

Remember the movie, A Few Good Men? "You can't handle the truth!" Jack Nicholson's character Colonel Nathan R. Jessep. Antifa is an anarchist organization whose intent is the destruction of our system of government. Have you been paying attention to the news reports on BLM's leadership? Brother of the leader of the organization being given lucrative security contracts worth huge money. The mansions they have bought, huge salaries, and luxurious living for the leadership using money donated to the organization. Sounds like a lot of greedy criminals to me!
Apparently, we watch different news channels. Remind me when BLM starts chanting "hang Mike Pense" and ALMOST succeeds in overthrowing the US government. Then, I will become seriously worried about BLM.

[Number 10 GI]

If I remember right at one time Antifa's own web site ID themselves as Marxist, "the gulag archipelago" has a line in it We knew we (Marxist) won when the person in the street no longer supported the police. The 6th of Jan group was hardly all a bunch of revolutionaries , certainly a small benighted number thought they could some how change things in the streets of Washington, the greatest numbers by far were upset with the election, but blowing it out of proportion make a better story and fits the narrative

The goal of Marxism is the overthrow of governments and the installation of communism. That is not revolution, that is sedition and treason. Antifa is hardly a group of revolutionaries, they are thugs. BLM has become a criminal enterprise siphoning money donated by fools.

[Reiver]

So? really, we are talking about a significant rise in school shootings in the past couple of years. Knives, bats, fists, and feet are NOT used in mass murders.

Thank god I don't have to worry about mass murder by fists imagine killing 20 people in a class by beating them to death.

Thank you for the "what aboutism"

What about this?

Mass Murder without Guns | National Review (https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/08/mass-murder-without-guns/)

Weapons That Are Most Commonly Used for Homicides (https://www.criminalattorneycolumbus.com/which-weapons-are-most-commonly-used-for-homicides/)

[jimjamuser]

The goal of Marxism is the overthrow of governments and the installation of communism. That is not revolution, that is sedition and treason. Antifa is hardly a group of revolutionaries, they are thugs. BLM has become a criminal enterprise siphoning money donated by fools.
I don't see much difference between Fascists and Marxists. They BOTH end up in a Dictatorship and suck the blood out of the middle class. I am a middle-classist - BOTH the far right and the far left are sickos to me!

[jimjamuser]

The goal of Marxism is the overthrow of governments and the installation of communism. That is not revolution, that is sedition and treason. Antifa is hardly a group of revolutionaries, they are thugs. BLM has become a criminal enterprise siphoning money donated by fools.
Antifa and BLM are basically figments of the imagination and exaggerations in the minds of white far-right conservatives that have bought into the FEAR ginned up by the channels and media that I DON'T watch!