How likely are you to purchase an Electric Vehicle?

[Hardlyworking]

.....and making not a jot of difference to word price or supply.

Not the point. Seems a lot of people are confused about the Keystone pipeline and what was canceled and what is operating. Including you.

[MartinSE]

You can believe that bullroar if you want but the war in Ukraine has not created this problem.

It seems this discussion has devolved into childish personal insults. I guess it is time for the moderators to end it.

[retiredguy123]

Pease remind me to NEVER buy a used car that you have owned.
OK. LOL. I think that a lot of the things the manufacturer recommends are to cover harsh driving conditions like dirt roads, smog, etc., or to make money for the dealer. And, they expect the car to be driven 300K miles or so. But, I believe any car will easily go 100K miles without doing any of those maintenance things. Note that, when you trade in a car, the dealer doesn't verify what maintenance you have performed. I never change any fluids except the engine oil, and I don't replace air filters. I change the oil every 5K miles, but I even think that is way too often. If it's not broken, don't fix it. But, I do want good tires and brakes. I always buy the best tires and brakes they sell. If something major goes wrong, I will probably just buy a new car.

[MartinSE]

Not the point. Seems a lot of people are confused about the Keystone pipeline and what was canceled and what is operating. Including you.

Thank you for pointing out what all we don't understand without bothering to educate us, since you seem to think you know what really happened.

[MartinSE]

OK. LOL. I think that a lot of the things the manufacturer recommends are to cover harsh driving conditions like dirt roads, smog, etc., or to make money for the dealer. And, they expect the car to be driven 300K miles or so. But, I believe any car will easily go 100K miles without doing any of those maintenance things. Note that, when you trade in a car, the dealer doesn't verify what maintenance you have performed. I never change any fluids except the engine oil, and I don't replace air filters. I change the oil every 5K miles, but I even think that is way too often. If it's not broken, don't fix it. But, I do want good tires and brakes. I always buy the best tires and brakes they sell. If something major goes wrong, I will probably just buy a new car.


Well, actually the dealer may or may not verify it - I have never been a dealer so I can't speak to what they do. But I do verify both the accident/damage record and maintenance record. No recorded maintenance , no purchase. More and more people are doing that today, because too many people drive a car without maintaining it, then because it is all shiny they expect to get top dollar. Maintenance is recorded in a national database by all reputable mechanics now.

[Aces4]

It seems this discussion has devolved into childish personal insults. I guess it is time for the moderators to end it.


That’s the scope of your response? Facts matter, don’t they! Perhaps following your own byline would help.

"Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in a while, or the light won't come in." --- Isaac Asimov

[Hardlyworking]

Thank you for pointing out what all we don't understand without bothering to educate us, since you seem to think you know what really happened.

I wasn’t talking to you. I’m sure you can operate Google as well as I can.

[tophcfa]

Another thing that most people do not realize about an IC gasoline engine is that they do not like to idle - they are NOT efficient AT LOW RPMs. To idle slowly they must be run RICH (in gas to air ratio) - then they give off more pollution. So, traffic jams are bad for mph, mpg, and pollution per mile. Diesel engines are better than gas for idle efficiency. (that is why the truckers sleep with A/C or heaters on and engines running at rest stops) The Electric Vehicle motor has none of these problems.

In general, the time lost and extra energy for idling are the INCREASED costs of traffic jams that are increasing due to the lack of additional LANES, which appear to be held up by a lack of transportation funding. And the population growth is greater than the growth of road maintenance money. The US is being penny-wise and dollar-foolish!

When an ice engine idles it can run A/C or heat as needed without draining its power source. Much more efficient that trying to cool or heat an EV that is stuck in traffic not moving. And EV’s are a big problem when it comes to transportation funding since they don’t pay a fuel tax.

[Hardlyworking]

When an ice engine idles it can run A/C or heat as needed without draining its power source. Much more efficient that trying to cool or heat an EV that is stuck in traffic not moving. And EV’s are a big problem when it comes to transportation funding since they don’t pay a fuel tax.

Teslas use a heat pump to cool and heat the vehicle. Moving is not required.

[Spectreron]

When an ice engine idles it can run A/C or heat as needed without draining its power source. Much more efficient that trying to cool or heat an EV that is stuck in traffic not moving. And EV’s are a big problem when it comes to transportation funding since they don’t pay a fuel tax.

Simply not true. An EV can just use the heat pump for HVAC while the gasser must idle to run heat and air. The EV uses about 10% of charge overnight keeping the vehicle at a nice toasty 75 deg., while watching Netflix or playing video games until the road clears. What magic do you use to run the A/C or heat without draining a power source?

[44Apple]

There will be resistance to adoption of electric vehicles just like there was back in 1910 re motorcars. But we are finally moving away from extensive use of oil.

[Bay Kid]

When an ice engine idles it can run A/C or heat as needed without draining its power source. Much more efficient that trying to cool or heat an EV that is stuck in traffic not moving. And EV’s are a big problem when it comes to transportation funding since they don’t pay a fuel tax.

Don't worry there will be a special tax for these vehicles.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

I agree. Natural gas vehicles have been around for more than 20 years. When I had a Government job, I drove a Government owned car that used both natural gas and gasoline. When you ran out of natural gas, you pushed a button and switched to the gasoline tank and kept driving. I don't know why they haven't become popular.

The answer I got was that some billionaire owns most of the natural gas in this country and some people would be upset if he made a lot of money.

[retiredguy123]

Well, actually the dealer may or may not verify it - I have never been a dealer so I can't speak to what they do. But I do verify both the accident/damage record and maintenance record. No recorded maintenance , no purchase. More and more people are doing that today, because too many people drive a car without maintaining it, then because it is all shiny they expect to get top dollar. Maintenance is recorded in a national database by all reputable mechanics now.
I could not verify that there is a national database for vehicle maintenance. The service center where I have had my oil changes done has reputable mechanics, but the guy there didn't know anything about a national database.

What database are you referring to, and how do I access it?

[tophcfa]

Don't worry there will be a special tax for these vehicles.

Unfortunately, what will most likely happen is that there will be a tax on miles driven on all vehicles but the tax on gas won’t go away, double taxing gas and diesel vehicles. If the government wants us in electric vehicles, they will eventually find ways to make it prohibitively uneconomical for most people to do otherwise. In the new era of stressing equality, they are dumping inequalities on people who prefer a rural lifestyle, where driving range, 4WD, and towing capacity are important, driving lots of miles is a necessity, and public transportation is not available. In a way, EV’s are forcing more urbanization.

[MartinSE]

I could not verify that there is a national database for vehicle maintenance. The service center where I have had my oil changes done has reputable mechanics, but the guy there didn't know anything about a national database.

What database are you referring to, and how do I access it?

It took all of about 10 seconds to fund some of them, there are also free services available. Some do only accendents, some do maintenance.

AutoCheck.com (https://www.autocheck.com/vehiclehistory/?siteID=2191&WT.mc_id=2191&opCampaignSource=Cars&gclid=EAIaIQobChMItazb7dvB-QIVdAOzAB2SugnoEAAYAyAAEgL4YPD_BwE)


Online VIN Lookup | Vehicle Accident History Report | Car Title History Report (https://www.googleadservices.com/pagead/aclk?sa=L&ai=DChcSEwjvkqO-28H5AhUoyZQJHY8PBS0YABAFGgJ5bQ&ae=2&ohost=www.google.com&cid=CAASJeRopiNb7HAaeEYjxw3bSYG07BPXmH7Wfok8DVV2zg p6VAwG_hc&sig=AOD64_17ulahCjnpBQXerEqm5_dqjSinww&q&adurl&ved=2ahUKEwj59pq-28H5AhWXfzABHTDfCxsQ0Qx6BAgGEAE&nis=2&dct=1)

[retiredguy123]

It took all of about 10 seconds to fund some of them, there are also free services available. Some do only accendents, some do maintenance.

AutoCheck.com (https://www.autocheck.com/vehiclehistory/?siteID=2191&WT.mc_id=2191&opCampaignSource=Cars&gclid=EAIaIQobChMItazb7dvB-QIVdAOzAB2SugnoEAAYAyAAEgL4YPD_BwE)


Online VIN Lookup | Vehicle Accident History Report | Car Title History Report (https://www.googleadservices.com/pagead/aclk?sa=L&ai=DChcSEwjvkqO-28H5AhUoyZQJHY8PBS0YABAFGgJ5bQ&ae=2&ohost=www.google.com&cid=CAASJeRopiNb7HAaeEYjxw3bSYG07BPXmH7Wfok8DVV2zg p6VAwG_hc&sig=AOD64_17ulahCjnpBQXerEqm5_dqjSinww&q&adurl&ved=2ahUKEwj59pq-28H5AhWXfzABHTDfCxsQ0Qx6BAgGEAE&nis=2&dct=1)
Your post said that, "maintenance is recorded in a national database by all reputable mechanics now". That is not true. In The Villages, I have had my car maintained by both Firestone and Sumter Tire. Firestone has 1700 shops in the U.S., and Sumter Tire is well regarded for doing excellent work on cars. But, neither of these auto maintenance shops enters any data into that website or any other national database. So, I think that using that website to determine if a vehicle has been well maintained would be virtually worthless.

[jimjamuser]

When an ice engine idles it can run A/C or heat as needed without draining its power source. Much more efficient that trying to cool or heat an EV that is stuck in traffic not moving. And EV’s are a big problem when it comes to transportation funding since they don’t pay a fuel tax.
People will always find a factor that is better about the OLD and currently in place system versus a NEW SYSTEM just coming on the horizon. It was TRUE many years ago when someone said that the HORSE is much better than the automobile because it is QUIETER.

[jimjamuser]

When an ice engine idles it can run A/C or heat as needed without draining its power source. Much more efficient that trying to cool or heat an EV that is stuck in traffic not moving. And EV’s are a big problem when it comes to transportation funding since they don’t pay a fuel tax.
If you notice, that when a car is idling and you switch on the A/C, the engine must be sped up to prevent it from stalling. Which proves that idling is hard for any IC engine. The IC engine ONLY operates efficiently in a narrow RPM range., That's why a heavy and inefficient transmission must be used.

[jimjamuser]

The answer I got was that some billionaire owns most of the natural gas in this country and some people would be upset if he made a lot of money.
Natural gas like oil is a worldwide commodity on a worldwide exchange. It would be impossible for one rich American or ONE anybody to corner the natural gas market.

[jimjamuser]

Nope. You are making this crap up. If you are referring to the PVC valve, it is easily cleaned. Read your owner’s manual. I would love to be your mechanic - I could put my kids through Harvard fleecing you - LOL.
Think about this. If all you had to do was clean PC Valves, then WHY do people buy them at the Auto Parts Stores? Google a parts catalog and you will see them there. Google me this Batman!

[manaboutown]

Lots of you's and he's. Not sure who you are talking about.

I don't drive an EV our current cars are fine 11 year old Jaguar and 15 year old Lexus). Our next car will be an EV and will have FSD. As I have said every time this thread gets repeated and all the same nonsense arguments about EVs come out.

So,,,do as I say, not as I do?

[jimjamuser]

Unfortunately, what will most likely happen is that there will be a tax on miles driven on all vehicles but the tax on gas won’t go away, double taxing gas and diesel vehicles. If the government wants us in electric vehicles, they will eventually find ways to make it prohibitively uneconomical for most people to do otherwise. In the new era of stressing equality, they are dumping inequalities on people who prefer a rural lifestyle, where driving range, 4WD, and towing capacity are important, driving lots of miles is a necessity, and public transportation is not available. In a way, EV’s are forcing more urbanization.
"Forcing Urbanization"........that is a strange stretch resulting in a strange CONCLUSION - like bending facts to come to a preferred solution.

[jimjamuser]

EVs are the FUTURE. It might take 5 years. It might take 20 years. Much depends on Government help, indifference, or hindrance. Pollution can be better controlled at ONE location (the power plant) rather than multiple locations (moving vehicles) Less pollution leads to better health and air quality for our grandchildren. And more money in their pockets as opposed to Saudi Arabian pockets. To my eyes, that is a result that ALL US citizens today should STRIVE FOR.

It is an intergenerational win-win. I may have some T-shirts made up - saying, "Shed the past, forget BIG OIL, and lower world tensions........trade that ICE oil polluter for the clean air FUTURE of the EV....you go America Girl"

[MartinSE]

So,,,do as I say, not as I do?

All or nothing BS again. Seems to be a trait.

I have NEVER said anyone should run out and buy an EV. Buy it when it makes sense to you. They are far better purchase option NOW. But, why buy any new car when our are excellent?

Oh, I know, you knew better, and just like to argue

[MartinSE]

"Forcing Urbanization"........that is a strange stretch resulting in a strange CONCLUSION - like bending facts to come to a preferred solution.

It is only a stretch if you live in the real world. In some alternate universe, everything any one does that you don't agree with is FORCING their way on you. Sigh.

It's becoming more and more obvious that no one actually wants to discuss or debate anything on this forum. Just those out dog whistles and try to out zing each other.

Yeah, man, you owned that one - LOL!

ahem.

[Stu from NYC]

All or nightie BS again. Seems to be a trait.

I have NEVER said anyone should run out and buy an EV. Buy it when it makes sense to you. They are far better purchase option NOW. But, why buy any new car when our are excellent?

Oh, I know, you knew better, and just like to argue

Or discuss.

[manaboutown]

All or nightie BS again. Seems to be a trait.

I have NEVER said anyone should run out and buy an EV. Buy it when it makes sense to you. They are far better purchase option NOW. But, why buy any new car when our are excellent?

Oh, I know, you knew better, and just like to argue

:rolleyes:

[Byte1]

Not really interested in purchasing an EV. The last time I rode in one was when I rode a Street Car in D.C. in the '50's. When the 'lectric cars can be charged on the go, I will definitely think about purchasing one. Not likely between today and when I am cremated. I have no problem with folks wanting to go 'lectric. I saw a golf cart that almost flew past at a record 110mph on a drag strip. It was battery powered. I still think that talking about how much horsepower a muscle car can put out is more interesting than how many amps you can get in your battery car. Just my opinion. I have no problem with burning fossil fuel until it's gone. The air today is cleaner than the air in the '50's in the main cities. I lived in one country where many converted their vehicles to burn natural gas. The modification to the cars cost about $300 for the kit. And they had filling stations around the city to fill up the tanks they kept in the trunk. Just a consideration if folks are wanting cleaner air.

[jimjamuser]

Not really interested in purchasing an EV. The last time I rode in one was when I rode a Street Car in D.C. in the '50's. When the 'lectric cars can be charged on the go, I will definitely think about purchasing one. Not likely between today and when I am cremated. I have no problem with folks wanting to go 'lectric. I saw a golf cart that almost flew past at a record 110mph on a drag strip. It was battery powered. I still think that talking about how much horsepower a muscle car can put out is more interesting than how many amps you can get in your battery car. Just my opinion. I have no problem with burning fossil fuel until it's gone. The air today is cleaner than the air in the '50's in the main cities. I lived in one country where many converted their vehicles to burn natural gas. The modification to the cars cost about $300 for the kit. And they had filling stations around the city to fill up the tanks they kept in the trunk. Just a consideration if folks are wanting cleaner air.
In 1950 the population of the US was 150 million people. That is why the air was good compared to today. And the world's population has about doubled, or more, since 1950. If the population had stayed the same, then there would be no Global Warming or excess pollution to cause Global Warming. Some brilliant old time philosopher said that wars and pestilence keep population controlled. We have had our share of disease lately and Russia is trying its best to start an expanding war. And without Ukrainian wheat, many in Africa will die.

If someone could wave a magic wand and world population not increase or decrease, then we would NOT need EVs as badly as we do. And its just barbaric and neanderthal-like that we are NOT using electric riding lawnmowers. Where is the Elon Musk of electric lawn equipment????????

[Stu from NYC]

In 1950 the population of the US was 150 million people. That is why the air was good compared to today. And the world's population has about doubled, or more, since 1950. If the population had stayed the same, then there would be no Global Warming or excess pollution to cause Global Warming. Some brilliant old time philosopher said that wars and pestilence keep population controlled. We have had our share of disease lately and Russia is trying its best to start an expanding war. And without Ukrainian wheat, many in Africa will die.

If someone could wave a magic wand and world population not increase or decrease, then we would NOT need EVs as badly as we do. And its just barbaric and neanderthal-like that we are NOT using electric riding lawnmowers. Where is the Elon Musk of electric lawn equipment????????

Waterways not really good in the 1950's. Companies like GE north of NYC polluted the hudson river to the extent all fish in the river died. For that matter air quality not so great than either. Coal was used in huge quantities and scrubbers were not around.

[Hardlyworking]

Or discuss.

If you agree with him, you are discussing. If you state another opinion, you are arguing.

[DaveZ]

I've read all the comments and can only shake my head. So many misconceptions...
EVs are much less expensive per mile driven
A fully charged Tesla holds the energy equivalent of 4 gal. of gasoline but gets 250-300 miles on that charge.
Batteries are already being recycled by Redwood Materials and others. They discharge the batteries in liquid nitrogen, grind them up, recover all the pure minerals and return them to the supply chain. Musk calls it battery mining because you end up with new raw materials.
There are charging stations everywhere, especially Tesla. Waiting in line for a supercharger is very rare. Charging stations are growing many time faster than EVs. Doubling annually.
You can add 200 miles of range in 20 mins at a supercharger or other high speed charger.
A typical 1,000 mile trip takes 2 hrs longer in an EV, providing the gas car just fills up and goes without spending any additional time at the gas station. The EV driver plugs in, pees, grabs a snack, 20 mins later is on the road.
There is so much else that people have heard or read that gives them a false picture. It's coming folks, the Tesla Model Y will be the worlds #1 selling auto in 2023 (ice and EV).
I really don't give a rat's if you buy one or not, just do a little research before you make statements.
Most EVs are a blast to drive, I'm 70+ yrs old and plan to have fun on my way out!

Hahaha!! I’m with you! I have a Tesla M3 and LMAO at the folks in this thread that know so little but judge so big! Forced child labor, pollution, CEO, on and on. If anyone spent as much judgement on their Amazon purchase, their furniture, the paint and plastics in their own ICE, or anything else including the device their posting with they’d realize the emperor has no clothes.

Continue to love my EV and enjoy seeing that it’s worth much more used than I bought it for. Can’t say that about even the most expensive ICE out there no matter who the CEO is.

[Stu from NYC]

If you agree with him, you are discussing. If you state another opinion, you are arguing.

Do think you nailed it. Sad that people cannot discuss things in a civilized manner these days

[MartinSE]

If you agree with him, you are discussing. If you state another opinion, you are arguing.

Discussing is providing information that supports your point of view, drive by one liners is not discussion.

[MartinSE]

Hahaha!! I’m with you! I have a Tesla M3 and LMAO at the folks in this thread that know so little but judge so big! Forced child labor, pollution, CEO, on and on. If anyone spent as much judgement on their Amazon purchase, their furniture, the paint and plastics in their own ICE, or anything else including the device their posting with they’d realize the emperor has no clothes.

Continue to love my EV and enjoy seeing that it’s worth much more used than I bought it for. Can’t say that about even the most expensive ICE out there no matter who the CEO is.

I agree, except many of the ones that disagree simply listen to certain media outlets and hate any thing the "other side" (close to being banned) believes. PERIOD.

[jimjamuser]

Waterways not really good in the 1950's. Companies like GE north of NYC polluted the hudson river to the extent all fish in the river died. For that matter air quality not so great than either. Coal was used in huge quantities and scrubbers were not around.
That is all true and generally well know. My point was that suppose over time - scrubbers were used on power plants and they were converted from coal to natural gas. That would help the air. But, ALSO suppose that some attempt was made to control population.......like say limiting legal and illegal immigration. OR CHANGE THE TAX CODE so that people get a tax break for 1 or 2 children, but no break for any additional 3,4, or more children. Suppose that a tax principle like that and immigration laws (with teeth) had started in 1950. Then the US might have a population around say 200 million people and not be overpopulated like today and the road system would be adequate. The air and water would be MUCH cleaner.

Today our IC engine vehicles all have about $2,000 worth of smog control equipment and catalytic converters on them. Much of which would NOT be needed today if population was 200 million people. And with robotics and A.I. coming on strong in the next 5 years, the US does NOT need all these millions of people that it has accumulated since 1950. Switzerland controls its population, that is why each citizen there has greater wealth than the average US citizen. The Europeans tend to be TALLER than US citizens because they have better average healthcare. So, US overpopulation is NOT a good thing.

To KEEP America's air clean and healthy in spite of the excess population, America NEEDS to emphasize (through tax policy) ELECTRIC transportation vehicles. And even farm tractors and riding lawn mowers, lawn equipment, and golf carts. Incidentally, you can SMELL the pollution given off by ICE golf carts as they drive by you. That is OBVIOUSLY a easily corrected source of pollution. Just buy a EV golf cart next time......for the good of America!

[DaveZ]

That is all true and generally well know. My point was that suppose over time - scrubbers were used on power plants and they were converted from coal to natural gas. That would help the air. But, ALSO suppose that some attempt was made to control population.......like say limiting legal and illegal immigration. OR CHANGE THE TAX CODE so that people get a tax break for 1 or 2 children, but no break for any additional 3,4, or more children. Suppose that a tax principle like that and immigration laws (with teeth) had started in 1950. Then the US might have a population around say 200 million people and not be overpopulated like today and the road system would be adequate. The air and water would be MUCH cleaner.

Today our IC engine vehicles all have about $2,000 worth of smog control equipment and catalytic converters on them. Much of which would NOT be needed today if population was 200 million people. And with robotics and A.I. coming on strong in the next 5 years, the US does NOT need all these millions of people that it has accumulated since 1950. Switzerland controls its population, that is why each citizen there has greater wealth than the average US citizen. The Europeans tend to be TALLER than US citizens because they have better average healthcare. So, US overpopulation is NOT a good thing.

To KEEP America's air clean and healthy in spite of the excess population, America NEEDS to emphasize (through tax policy) ELECTRIC transportation vehicles. And even farm tractors and riding lawn mowers, lawn equipment, and golf carts. Incidentally, you can SMELL the pollution given off by ICE golf carts as they drive by you. That is OBVIOUSLY a easily corrected source of pollution. Just buy a EV golf cart next time......for the good of America!

Reducing the population could potentially solve almost all of our problems but if someone with this thinking were left with just me on the planet, I’d still have one.

It would sap my attention span at light speed trying to point out how much information your opinion has lacking on most of your points. I’ll just suggest you get some friends in the countries you mention and read something real (as in truth and data not opinion or talking points). I hope you change your mind.

[Bogie Shooter]

Interesting, top 5 posters have something to argue about… to replace mask debate.

[Jimbob the Newbie]

Hahaha!! I’m with you! I have a Tesla M3 and LMAO at the folks in this thread that know so little but judge so big! Forced child labor, pollution, CEO, on and on. If anyone spent as much judgement on their Amazon purchase, their furniture, the paint and plastics in their own ICE, or anything else including the device their posting with they’d realize the emperor has no clothes.

Continue to love my EV and enjoy seeing that it’s worth much more used than I bought it for. Can’t say that about even the most expensive ICE out there no matter who the CEO is.


MX owner here. I bought it because of the technology that drives it, technology the EV industry forced the ICE manufacturers to adopt. I DIDN'T purchase it to make a political statement, despite so many people trying to make the ownership of an EV into a reason to widen the divide.

This has been my Florida car for a couple of years, but when gas prices flew through the roof, it only made sense - for me - to take it up north. Normally I drive a Durango back and forth from IL to FL, and it takes 4 or 5 tankfuls of petrol to make the trip. I stopped a little more often to charge up my X, but my total supercharging costs were less than 1-1/2 tanks of gasoline.

You do you, I will do me.

[DaveZ]

MX owner here. I bought it because of the technology that drives it, technology the EV industry forced the ICE manufacturers to adopt. I DIDN'T purchase it to make a political statement, despite so many people trying to make the ownership of an EV into a reason to widen the divide.

This has been my Florida car for a couple of years, but when gas prices flew through the roof, it only made sense - for me - to take it up north. Normally I drive a Durango back and forth from IL to FL, and it takes 4 or 5 tankfuls of petrol to make the trip. I stopped a little more often to charge up my X, but my total supercharging costs were less than 1-1/2 tanks of gasoline.

You do you, I will do me.

Truth. No politics at all. Your MX demonstrates that American knowledge, spirit, grit, and sure can do isn’t only mighty enough to help stop powerful, evil armies in their tracks but is also sexy and smooth with great MPG.

[Brad-tv]

MX owner here. I bought it because of the technology that drives it, technology the EV industry forced the ICE manufacturers to adopt. I DIDN'T purchase it to make a political statement, despite so many people trying to make the ownership of an EV into a reason to widen the divide.

This has been my Florida car for a couple of years, but when gas prices flew through the roof, it only made sense - for me - to take it up north. Normally I drive a Durango back and forth from IL to FL, and it takes 4 or 5 tankfuls of petrol to make the trip. I stopped a little more often to charge up my X, but my total supercharging costs were less than 1-1/2 tanks of gasoline.

You do you, I will do me.


Is that the Mazda-MX-30?

[Stu from NYC]

That is all true and generally well know. My point was that suppose over time - scrubbers were used on power plants and they were converted from coal to natural gas. That would help the air. But, ALSO suppose that some attempt was made to control population.......like say limiting legal and illegal immigration. OR CHANGE THE TAX CODE so that people get a tax break for 1 or 2 children, but no break for any additional 3,4, or more children. Suppose that a tax principle like that and immigration laws (with teeth) had started in 1950. Then the US might have a population around say 200 million people and not be overpopulated like today and the road system would be adequate. The air and water would be MUCH cleaner.

Today our IC engine vehicles all have about $2,000 worth of smog control equipment and catalytic converters on them. Much of which would NOT be needed today if population was 200 million people. And with robotics and A.I. coming on strong in the next 5 years, the US does NOT need all these millions of people that it has accumulated since 1950. Switzerland controls its population, that is why each citizen there has greater wealth than the average US citizen. The Europeans tend to be TALLER than US citizens because they have better average healthcare. So, US overpopulation is NOT a good thing.

To KEEP America's air clean and healthy in spite of the excess population, America NEEDS to emphasize (through tax policy) ELECTRIC transportation vehicles. And even farm tractors and riding lawn mowers, lawn equipment, and golf carts. Incidentally, you can SMELL the pollution given off by ICE golf carts as they drive by you. That is OBVIOUSLY a easily corrected source of pollution. Just buy a EV golf cart next time......for the good of America!

Even if we did all that and do not think that is going to happen what are your plans for the rest of the world?

[Michael G.]

One thing I learn when shopping for anything electric, (maybe the same goes for EV cars when stating mileage).
I bought a electric self-propelled lawn mower, when run-time is stated at 1 hour, it's not the same as operating-time.

When I'm actually mowing my lawn, I'm lucky to get 1/2 that in mowing time.

With any EV, I would think temperature, load, speed would affect any mileage.

[JMintzer]

That is all true and generally well know. My point was that suppose over time - scrubbers were used on power plants and they were converted from coal to natural gas. That would help the air. But, ALSO suppose that some attempt was made to control population.......like say limiting legal and illegal immigration. OR CHANGE THE TAX CODE so that people get a tax break for 1 or 2 children, but no break for any additional 3,4, or more children. Suppose that a tax principle like that and immigration laws (with teeth) had started in 1950. Then the US might have a population around say 200 million people and not be overpopulated like today and the road system would be adequate. The air and water would be MUCH cleaner.

Today our IC engine vehicles all have about $2,000 worth of smog control equipment and catalytic converters on them. Much of which would NOT be needed today if population was 200 million people. And with robotics and A.I. coming on strong in the next 5 years, the US does NOT need all these millions of people that it has accumulated since 1950. Switzerland controls its population, that is why each citizen there has greater wealth than the average US citizen. The Europeans tend to be TALLER than US citizens because they have better average healthcare. So, US overpopulation is NOT a good thing.

To KEEP America's air clean and healthy in spite of the excess population, America NEEDS to emphasize (through tax policy) ELECTRIC transportation vehicles. And even farm tractors and riding lawn mowers, lawn equipment, and golf carts. Incidentally, you can SMELL the pollution given off by ICE golf carts as they drive by you. That is OBVIOUSLY a easily corrected source of pollution. Just buy a EV golf cart next time......for the good of America!

You mean, like in 1970 (when the US Population was 205 Million people), and the smog was so thick you could cut it with a knife?

BTW, what EV do you drive?

[Stu from NYC]

You mean, like in 1970 (when the US Population was 205 Million people), and the smog was so thick you could cut it with a knife?

BTW, what EV do you drive?

Why do you have to confuse me with facts?:bigbow:

[Jimbob the Newbie]

Is that the Mazda-MX-30?

Not even close. Tesla Model X.

[jimjamuser]

You mean, like in 1970 (when the US Population was 205 Million people), and the smog was so thick you could cut it with a knife?

BTW, what EV do you drive?
Total US pollution and smog EQUALS pollution produced by the average citizen TIMES the number of citizens.
.....Or P (total) = P (average) X N (US population) ......Therefore, total pollution may be LOWERED by either lowering the average citizen's pollution by smog controls on ICE vehicles or giving tax breaks for EVs .....OR preventing overpopulation. Incidentally..... I personally own an Ebike!

[Bay Kid]

Total US pollution and smog EQUALS pollution produced by the average citizen TIMES the number of citizens.
.....Or P (total) = P (average) X N (US population) ......Therefore, total pollution may be LOWERED by either lowering the average citizen's pollution by smog controls on ICE vehicles or giving tax breaks for EVs .....OR preventing overpopulation. Incidentally..... I personally own an Ebike!

But people still have debris burning all over the country. One good burn pollutes neighbors for miles. What does that do to the environment?

[MartinSE]

Even if we did all that and do not think that is going to happen what are your plans for the rest of the world?

We can only control what we do. We can encourage the rest of the world as we have always done through economic and political pressure.

MOST of the world are not Christian, so, should Christians stop?

Let's not forget that we (5% of the worlds population) generate 25% of the worlds carbon emissions. We were #1 in the world in emissions for a LONG time, but now China is competing for that position.

[MartinSE]

But people still have debris burning all over the country. One good burn pollutes neighbors for miles. What does that do to the environment?

There are not 300 million debris fires every day for hours.

It's a magnitude issue. There are a LOT of things we do that pollute. We can start at the top of the list and fix the most egregious sources first, and work our way down to barbecues and debris fires.

[JMintzer]

Total US pollution and smog EQUALS pollution produced by the average citizen TIMES the number of citizens.
.....Or P (total) = P (average) X N (US population) ......Therefore, total pollution may be LOWERED by either lowering the average citizen's pollution by smog controls on ICE vehicles or giving tax breaks for EVs .....OR preventing overpopulation. Incidentally..... I personally own an Ebike!

Word salad... YOU stated that everything was great when we had 200 Million people. No need for $2000 worth of pollution controls on cars.

I showed you where you were wrong about that...

And how in the hell can "tax breaks" lower pollution?

So you don't own a car at all?

[JMintzer]

We can only control what we do. We can encourage the rest of the world as we have always done through economic and political pressure.

MOST of the world are not Christian, so, should Christians stop?

Let's not forget that we (5% of the worlds population) generate 25% of the worlds carbon emissions. We were #1 in the world in emissions for a LONG time, but now China is competing for that position.

And the air and water in the US is cleaner than it has been in over 100 years...

People in China have been wearing masks for decades. Not due to any virus, but due to the pollution...

[Brad-tv]

Not even close. Tesla Model X.

Well that makes a heck of a lot more sense I saw MX and looked it up (100 mpc crazy) The model X is a beautiful piece of machinery/ technology That’s definitely on my bucket list but I have the M3 now and I love it!!

[jimjamuser]

But people still have debris burning all over the country. One good burn pollutes neighbors for miles. What does that do to the environment?
That IS a question worth answering. I am NOT an environmental engineer. So, hopefully someone else can come up with a better or more complete answer. But, I will spill out what I remember. It has to do with the OZONE layer that protects the earth from TOO MUCH solar radiation. For millions of years lightning caused fires and trees and shrubs would burn (like out west now). This TYPE of burning did NOT adversely affect the OZONE LAYER.

Now the burning of gasoline in a ICE DOES adversely affect the ozone layer. For some reason (?) maybe incomplete combustion the ICE produces carbon MONOXIDE. Whereas, the trees burning produces carbon DIOXIDE, which I believe gets RECYCLED by living trees. The carbon monoxide (CO) drifts upward to the ozone layer and messes it up.

In big cities and with inversion layers the exhaust of the ICE engine, which contains (CO) produces SMOG and makes peoples lungs and eyes ITCH. Inversion layers also trap heat in cities. Population comes into play because the US produced the MOST pollution up until a few years ago when China took over 1st place. And they have terrible SMOG. If the US controlled its population around 250 million people today, the world would be a better place for both the US and the world. Because we would be putting out less pollution and as an additional BENEFIT .....so would China because we are their main BUYER for their polluting industrial OUTPUT. .......... I tried my best to answer that difficult question.

[jimjamuser]

Word salad... YOU stated that everything was great when we had 200 Million people. No need for $2000 worth of pollution controls on cars.

I showed you where you were wrong about that...

And how in the hell can "tax breaks" lower pollution?

So you don't own a car at all?
Tax breaks for EVs lower TOTAL carbon emissions.

[Tvflguy]

Tax breaks for EVs lower TOTAL carbon emissions.

Can this statement be confirmed with facts. Both economic and scientific. From unbiased data?

[Dr.Butler]

Can this statement be confirmed with facts. Both economic and scientific. From unbiased data?

Define. Unbiased?
Data from the car manufactures? Data from scientists? Data from the government?

[Stu from NYC]

That IS a question worth answering. I am NOT an environmental engineer. So, hopefully someone else can come up with a better or more complete answer. But, I will spill out what I remember. It has to do with the OZONE layer that protects the earth from TOO MUCH solar radiation. For millions of years lightning caused fires and trees and shrubs would burn (like out west now). This TYPE of burning did NOT adversely affect the OZONE LAYER.

Now the burning of gasoline in a ICE DOES adversely affect the ozone layer. For some reason (?) maybe incomplete combustion the ICE produces carbon MONOXIDE. Whereas, the trees burning produces carbon DIOXIDE, which I believe gets RECYCLED by living trees. The carbon monoxide (CO) drifts upward to the ozone layer and messes it up.

In big cities and with inversion layers the exhaust of the ICE engine, which contains (CO) produces SMOG and makes peoples lungs and eyes ITCH. Inversion layers also trap heat in cities. Population comes into play because the US produced the MOST pollution up until a few years ago when China took over 1st place. And they have terrible SMOG. If the US controlled its population around 250 million people today, the world would be a better place for both the US and the world. Because we would be putting out less pollution and as an additional BENEFIT .....so would China because we are their main BUYER for their polluting industrial OUTPUT. .......... I tried my best to answer that difficult question.

Years ago there was a Star Trek episode about a world where they solved the problem of overpopulation by having people report for death station at a certain age. Is this where you got the idea of controlling population?

[tophcfa]

Tax breaks for EVs lower TOTAL carbon emissions.

Can this statement be confirmed with facts. Both economic and scientific. From unbiased data?

Nope

[Tvflguy]

Tax breaks for EVs lower TOTAL carbon emissions.

How about tax breaks for ranchers and farmers to kill 2/3 of their cattle/cows so their flatulence does not produce the HUGE amount of methane gas that pollutes the globe. An enormous problem per scientists.

What not attack this source of pollution too? Tongue in cheek but if they could they would.

[jimjamuser]

How about tax breaks for ranchers and farmers to kill 2/3 of their cattle/cows so their flatulence does not produce the HUGE amount of methane gas that pollutes the globe. An enormous problem per scientists.

What not attack this source of pollution too? Tongue in cheek but if they could they would.
Well,there are veggie burgers that are high in protein and taste good. Also, I read that some scientists are GROWING meat in vats indoors. Those 2 changes could decrease the demand for cattle beef. And IF, BIG IF, the US and world population does NOT increase, then total POLLUTION should drop as fewer cattle are needed. So, that source of POLLUTION CAN be attacked.

Fish would also have less flatulence than cattle and the protein is probably higher in fish - so, more demand for fish - and utilizing fish farms could cut down on POLLUTION.

Offsetting that, from what I understand, INDIA IS increasing in POPULATION. While the Russian initiated war with the Ukraine is lowering the world's POPULATION.

[Stu from NYC]

Well,there are veggie burgers that are high in protein and taste good. Also, I read that some scientists are GROWING meat in vats indoors. Those 2 changes could decrease the demand for cattle beef. And IF, BIG IF, the US and world population does NOT increase, then total POLLUTION should drop as fewer cattle are needed. So, that source of POLLUTION CAN be attacked.

Fish would also have less flatulence than cattle and the protein is probably higher in fish - so, more demand for fish - and utilizing fish farms could cut down on POLLUTION.

Offsetting that, from what I understand, INDIA IS increasing in POPULATION. While the Russian initiated war with the Ukraine is lowering the world's POPULATION.

Ever see a fish farm? Terrible life for the fish one on top of others. PETA would not be amused.

[JMintzer]

Tax breaks for EVs lower TOTAL carbon emissions.

I'll ask again...

What type of car DO YOU DRIVE?

It's a simple question that you will not answer...

[JMintzer]

Tax breaks for EVs lower TOTAL carbon emissions.

Care to offer proof of that claim?

[Stu from NYC]

Care to offer proof of that claim?

Some day the analysis will include where the electricity comes from to charge the battery and what are the effects of the materials used to make the battery and any pollution effects in the in the first place.

[billethkid]

EV are not a viable long range vehicle as there is insufficient infrastructure to support along the way charging stations.

Think about needing a charge, pulling into rest area and there are either no charge stations there yet, or the few there are all full!!!

Due to lack of infrastructure travel is restricted to mostly interstate/major roadways. Secondary road availability? Forget about it.

No Thanx!!!!!

[MartinSE]

EV are not a viable long range vehicle as there is insufficient infrastructure to support along the way charging stations.

Think about needing a charge, pulling into rest area and there are either no charge stations there yet, or the few there are all full!!!

Due to lack of infrastructure travel is restricted to mostly interstate/major roadways. Secondary road availability? Forget about it.

No Thanx!!!!!

I lived in a town of about 1000 in a county of 14000 before moving here. There was a supercharger at a truck stop just outside of town.

The Teslas will route you the most efficient way to make sure you have enough chargers, you don't "suddenly" find yourself stuck in the middle of nowhere. Well, if you decide to ignore all the features helping you, then yes, you can run out of charge, just like you can run out of gas.

The Tesla charging stations are spreading rapidly. The other types are struggling, but are coming. With adapters most car can charge at most stations, not all but most. And not the government is putting money into building out the charging infrastructure.

[Byte1]

In 1950 the population of the US was 150 million people. That is why the air was good compared to today. And the world's population has about doubled, or more, since 1950. If the population had stayed the same, then there would be no Global Warming or excess pollution to cause Global Warming. Some brilliant old time philosopher said that wars and pestilence keep population controlled. We have had our share of disease lately and Russia is trying its best to start an expanding war. And without Ukrainian wheat, many in Africa will die.

If someone could wave a magic wand and world population not increase or decrease, then we would NOT need EVs as badly as we do. And its just barbaric and neanderthal-like that we are NOT using electric riding lawnmowers. Where is the Elon Musk of electric lawn equipment????????

No, I disagree. The AIR WAS NOT AS GOOD AS IT IS TODAY in the cities. When you drove through D.C. you could not see the sky, it was so polluted. We used to get car sick because of the vehicle exhaust from all the oil burning engines in those days. We have come a long way at cleaning up the air and it is better now than then. Fear mongers can predict the end of the world all they wish, but it just ain't gonna happen within the next century, if at all. Besides, plants need CO2 to thrive and produce oxygen.

[tophcfa]

In an effort to try and slowly begin to embrace the changes being made, I bought my first electric razor after shaving with a traditional razor and cream for almost 60 years. After one shave I tossed the thing, it sucked. If I can’t stand a quick shave with an electric razor, imagine trying to drive an electric vehicle back and fourth between the Villages and Massachusetts three or four times per year. Not happening!

[B-flat]

In an effort to try and slowly begin to embrace the changes being made, I bought my first electric razor after shaving with a traditional razor and cream for almost 60 years. After one shave I tossed the thing, it sucked. If I can’t stand a quick shave with an electric razor, imagine trying to drive an electric vehicle back and fourth between the Villages and Massachusetts three or four times per year. Not happening!

We do a RI trip twice per year, it won't happen with an electric vehicle.

[Byte1]

One poster continues to suggest "tax breaks" as an incentive for one to purchase an EV. Explain to the rest of us how a "tax break" helps lower income folks that do not itemize their tax returns or even make enough income to make a "tax break" even feasible. How is a "tax break" really going to help those that WORK for a living pay for such an expense as an EV costs? Are you going to wave a magic wand and make EVs cheap?

[tophcfa]

One poster continues to suggest "tax breaks" as an incentive for one to purchase an EV. Explain to the rest of us how a "tax break" helps lower income folks that do not itemize their tax returns or even make enough income to make a "tax break" even feasible. How is a "tax break" really going to help those that WORK for a living pay for such an expense as an EV costs? Are you going to wave a magic wand and make EVs cheap?

There is no such thing as a tax break, only a tax shift. The revenue has to come from somewhere. The same people calling for tax breaks are the same ones who can’t comprehend the fact that the never ending budget deficits have lead to an unsustainable national debt.

[Tvflguy]

One poster continues to suggest "tax breaks" as an incentive for one to purchase an EV. Explain to the rest of us how a "tax break" helps lower income folks that do not itemize their tax returns or even make enough income to make a "tax break" even feasible. How is a "tax break" really going to help those that WORK for a living pay for such an expense as an EV costs? Are you going to wave a magic wand and make EVs cheap?

Totally absolutely and positively correct.

We are doing just fine financially. But fortunately we are in a low tax bracket and would not be able to take advantage of a federal tax credit, as the $7500 credit the year after buying as many EVs have or will.

So for us, we have the burden of all taxpayers to fund this (grrrr) but cannot use it. It would be like buying an EV but leaving $7500 on the table. Really????!!!!!

[jimjamuser]

Some day the analysis will include where the electricity comes from to charge the battery and what are the effects of the materials used to make the battery and any pollution effects in the in the first place.
I read that lithium may be able to be mined in Greenland. That could break China's monopoly plans for that material. And bring DOWN the PRICE !

[jimjamuser]

EV are not a viable long range vehicle as there is insufficient infrastructure to support along the way charging stations.

Think about needing a charge, pulling into rest area and there are either no charge stations there yet, or the few there are all full!!!

Due to lack of infrastructure travel is restricted to mostly interstate/major roadways. Secondary road availability? Forget about it.

No Thanx!!!!!
Taking a time machine way back, we find that there were SIMILAR complains about the TRANSITION from HORSE transportation to automobile transportation!

Many people complained, " I can feed my horse anywhere and conveniently on readily available GRASS. Where with one of those dag-gon, loud, stinky automotivebilly-things I would have to hunt all over for gas in its stupid tank !"

[vickersbond]

I think the electric cars will be similar to the Edsel but it will take a bit longer for folks to stop buying electric cars - except those who have no intention of making any long trips. Might become a glorified golf cart. Can't run out of juice and get a refill in a gas (oops) electric can. And you can't fill up in 5 minutes or less. Cost of batteries is scary and disposal of those batteries will be a major problem for years to come. I do plan to buy a Hybrid as my next vehicle.

[retiredguy123]

One poster continues to suggest "tax breaks" as an incentive for one to purchase an EV. Explain to the rest of us how a "tax break" helps lower income folks that do not itemize their tax returns or even make enough income to make a "tax break" even feasible. How is a "tax break" really going to help those that WORK for a living pay for such an expense as an EV costs? Are you going to wave a magic wand and make EVs cheap?
As I understand it, whether or not you itemize has nothing to do with the $7500 EV tax credit. It is a credit deducted directly from your total tax obligation. But, you must have a tax obligation for the year to get the credit. So, as long as you paid at least $7500 in Federal income tax, you will fully benefit from the credit. If your tax obligation is less than $7500, you can only claim the amount of your tax obligation. However, there is a possibility that the car manufacturers will price the vehicles higher because they are aware of the tax credit you will receive.

[jimjamuser]

No, I disagree. The AIR WAS NOT AS GOOD AS IT IS TODAY in the cities. When you drove through D.C. you could not see the sky, it was so polluted. We used to get car sick because of the vehicle exhaust from all the oil burning engines in those days. We have come a long way at cleaning up the air and it is better now than then. Fear mongers can predict the end of the world all they wish, but it just ain't gonna happen within the next century, if at all. Besides, plants need CO2 to thrive and produce oxygen.
It IS true that in major US cities the was dirty air. Particularly those cities with a lot of industrial production and smokestacks. Today the US has outsourced its dirty air to China. And Chinese bad air and pollution does NOT stop at the bortder of China - it travels around the world and the pollution affects the upper OZONE layer, which is NOT able to block solar radiation - as well as it did in the 1950s. India is overpopulated also and causing world pollution. Pollution leads to GLOBAL WARMING - which needs to be OFFSET by efforts like the US is doing to PROMOTE purchases of EVs by giving tax breaks.

As far as "fear mongering and disasters not happening in this century" I can DISAGREE with that and I would suggest that everyone read today's article in News Break that says, " Dangerous heat will impact Florida and much of the US over the next 50 years." Starting next year (not 100 years away) Florida will have TWICE as many over 100 heat index days as compared to recent years. Florida, Texas and even states ass far north as Wisconsin will begin to experience dangerous heat index days (some as high as 125)

Right now Florida and Texas are in the path of ORGANIC dust blown in from the Sahara desert due to global Warming. The Antartica has ice sheets dropping into the ocean much FASTER than most scientists expected. This is happening so fast that a young person would be stupid to buy BEACHFRONT property in Florida. The problem is that most people are living their lives while being ignorant or UNCARING about the future, but SOON approaching effects of Global Warming.

And the point is that it is becoming important and URGENT that people begin to switch from ICE vehicles to EVs. It IS important for the next generations. It can EVEN be thought of as PATRIOTIC to do so. Help your grandchildren and do the RIGHT thing. The US government is TRYING to help you!

[jimjamuser]

In an effort to try and slowly begin to embrace the changes being made, I bought my first electric razor after shaving with a traditional razor and cream for almost 60 years. After one shave I tossed the thing, it sucked. If I can’t stand a quick shave with an electric razor, imagine trying to drive an electric vehicle back and fourth between the Villages and Massachusetts three or four times per year. Not happening!
People tend to be adverse to change. Even for things like shaving. My advice........try a Norelco rotary.

[jimjamuser]

One poster continues to suggest "tax breaks" as an incentive for one to purchase an EV. Explain to the rest of us how a "tax break" helps lower income folks that do not itemize their tax returns or even make enough income to make a "tax break" even feasible. How is a "tax break" really going to help those that WORK for a living pay for such an expense as an EV costs? Are you going to wave a magic wand and make EVs cheap?
Chevrolet makes a EV for $ 40 K before everybody's favorite thing........"tax breaks" I am sure that most TV Landers can afford $ 40 K for a more reliable vehicle that pays for itself by eliminating EXPENSIVE and polluting gasoline, which makes SAUDI Arabia rich (see how PATRIOTIC that can be !). While it preserves the earth for their GRANDCHILDREN. Be good to the NEXT generation.........buy an electric vehicle. Even if it is just a golf cart or an E-bike. BE the GOOD in the world !!!!!!!

[jimjamuser]

There is no such thing as a tax break, only a tax shift. The revenue has to come from somewhere. The same people calling for tax breaks are the same ones who can’t comprehend the fact that the never ending budget deficits have lead to an unsustainable national debt.
The revenue benefit will come from NOT wasting money and making the Saudis rich. Cleaner AIR will let US citizens live longer and have longer PRODUCTIVE years. CLEANER AIR will increase average health and cut down on wasted time for patients being hospitalized.

[jimjamuser]

As I understand it, whether or not you itemize has nothing to do with the $7500 EV tax credit. It is a credit deducted directly from your total tax obligation. But, you must have a tax obligation for the year to get the credit. So, as long as you paid at least $7500 in Federal income tax, you will fully benefit from the credit. If your tax obligation is less than $7500, you can only claim the amount of your tax obligation. However, there is a possibility that the car manufacturers will price the vehicles higher because they are aware of the tax credit you will receive.
Good informative post. Kudos !

[Tvflguy]

Chevrolet make a EV for $ 40 K before everybody's favorite thing........"tax breaks" I am sure that most TV Landers can afford $ 40 K for a more reliable vehicle that pays for itself by eliminating EXPENSIVE and polluting gasoline, which makes SAUDI Arabia rich (see how PATRIOTIC that can be !). While it preserves the earth for their GRANDCHILDREN. Be good to the NEXT generation.........buy an electric vehicle. Even if it is just a golf cart or an E-bike. BE the GOOD in the world !!!!!!!

Yep this is the Bolt EV / EUV you’re referring to. This is the one that had battery fires and was banned from parking lots etc etc. I’m a member of their Facebook site since I may …possibly… buy an EV, prospect in the future. There are some other EVs, but more $$$ that are rated much better. The Bolt had that jellybean shape - uggg. And has its share of issues.

GM will be conducting a recall of Bolt EVs (2017-2022) and Bolt EUVs (2022) to address the risk of battery fires in these vehicles. Out of an abundance of caution, GM will replace defective lithium-ion battery modules in Chevrolet Bolt EVs and EUVs with new lithium-ion modules.

There are 7 fuel/propulsion system complaints, 5 powertrain complaints, 3 that relate to service brakes, and 2 to do with steering. Airbag, lane departure, suspension, tires, and vehicle speed control issues also feature.

Also, batteries catching on fire isn’t the only issue with batteries. Bradley Berman, who writes for Autoweek, says he leased a Bolt for three years. During that time, his battery pack was replaced three times due to cell failure. The car didn’t go up in flames, it simply stopped on the road leaving him stranded!

Oh by the way batteries come from China. So a purchase profits our ‘enemy’ and probably worker abuse etc etc. yes, be good to the next generation and fund China even more…

[billethkid]

Taking a time machine way back, we find that there were SIMILAR complains about the TRANSITION from HORSE transportation to automobile transportation!

Many people complained, " I can feed my horse anywhere and conveniently on readily available GRASS. Where with one of those dag-gon, loud, stinky automotivebilly-things I would have to hunt all over for gas in its stupid tank !"

Not a "complaint".
Very simple matter of fact resulting in a personal conclusion/decision.

[JMintzer]

It IS true that in major US cities the was dirty air. Particularly those cities with a lot of industrial production and smokestacks. Today the US has outsourced its dirty air to China. And Chinese bad air and pollution does NOT stop at the bortder of China - it travels around the world and the pollution affects the upper OZONE layer, which is NOT able to block solar radiation - as well as it did in the 1950s. India is overpopulated also and causing world pollution. Pollution leads to GLOBAL WARMING - which needs to be OFFSET by efforts like the US is doing to PROMOTE purchases of EVs by giving tax breaks.

As far as "fear mongering and disasters not happening in this century" I can DISAGREE with that and I would suggest that everyone read today's article in News Break that says, " Dangerous heat will impact Florida and much of the US over the next 50 years." Starting next year (not 100 years away) Florida will have TWICE as many over 100 heat index days as compared to recent years. Florida, Texas and even states ass far north as Wisconsin will begin to experience dangerous heat index days (some as high as 125)

Right now Florida and Texas are in the path of ORGANIC dust blown in from the Sahara desert due to global Warming. The Antartica has ice sheets dropping into the ocean much FASTER than most scientists expected. This is happening so fast that a young person would be stupid to buy BEACHFRONT property in Florida. The problem is that most people are living their lives while being ignorant or UNCARING about the future, but SOON approaching effects of Global Warming.

And the point is that it is becoming important and URGENT that people begin to switch from ICE vehicles to EVs. It IS important for the next generations. It can EVEN be thought of as PATRIOTIC to do so. Help your grandchildren and do the RIGHT thing. The US government is TRYING to help you!

Except Antarctic ice is actually growing...

Recent growth and sudden declines in Antarctic sea ice to be unique changes since the early 20th century: Research paints a dramatic first-ever picture for weather and climate implications on the world’s southernmost continent -- ScienceDaily (https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/01/220110114135.htm)

Oh, and I must have missed your answer to my question... What kind of car did you say you drove again?

[JMintzer]

As I understand it, whether or not you itemize has nothing to do with the $7500 EV tax credit. It is a credit deducted directly from your total tax obligation. But, you must have a tax obligation for the year to get the credit. So, as long as you paid at least $7500 in Federal income tax, you will fully benefit from the credit. If your tax obligation is less than $7500, you can only claim the amount of your tax obligation. However, there is a possibility that the car manufacturers will price the vehicles higher because they are aware of the tax credit you will receive.

Ford has just announced an increased in prices of up to $8500... Go figure..

[MartinSE]

Yep this is the Bolt EV / EUV you’re referring to. This is the one that had battery fires and was banned from parking lots etc etc. I’m a member of their Facebook site since I may …possibly… buy an EV, prospect in the future. There are some other EVs, but more $$$ that are rated much better. The Bolt had that jellybean shape - uggg. And has its share of issues.

GM will be conducting a recall of Bolt EVs (2017-2022) and Bolt EUVs (2022) to address the risk of battery fires in these vehicles. Out of an abundance of caution, GM will replace defective lithium-ion battery modules in Chevrolet Bolt EVs and EUVs with new lithium-ion modules.

There are 7 fuel/propulsion system complaints, 5 powertrain complaints, 3 that relate to service brakes, and 2 to do with steering. Airbag, lane departure, suspension, tires, and vehicle speed control issues also feature.

Also, batteries catching on fire isn’t the only issue with batteries. Bradley Berman, who writes for Autoweek, says he leased a Bolt for three years. During that time, his battery pack was replaced three times due to cell failure. The car didn’t go up in flames, it simply stopped on the road leaving him stranded!

Oh by the way batteries come from China. So a purchase profits our ‘enemy’ and probably worker abuse etc etc. yes, be good to the next generation and fund China even more…

I see so your argument is that since they had a problem, you will never buy one.

Battery fires a rare, GM ALREADY replaced ALL the defective batteries.

I have no idea where bolt batteries come from but I know that GM has announced a factory here in the states coming soon. Tesla batteries come from HERE in the US.

As always there is a certain segment of the population that loves to find anything that makes something less than perfect. I remember people saying they would never own. a cell phone - too unreliable. ahem...

[JMintzer]

Chevrolet makes a EV for $ 40 K before everybody's favorite thing........"tax breaks" I am sure that most TV Landers can afford $ 40 K for a more reliable vehicle that pays for itself by eliminating EXPENSIVE and polluting gasoline, which makes SAUDI Arabia rich (see how PATRIOTIC that can be !). While it preserves the earth for their GRANDCHILDREN. Be good to the NEXT generation.........buy an electric vehicle. Even if it is just a golf cart or an E-bike. BE the GOOD in the world !!!!!!!

When are you buying one?

[Tvflguy]

I see so your argument is that since they had a problem, you will never buy one.

Battery fires a rare, GM ALREADY replaced ALL the defective batteries.

I have no idea where bolt batteries come from but I know that GM has announced a factory here in the states coming soon. Tesla batteries come from HERE in the US.

As always there is a certain segment of the population that loves to find anything that makes something less than perfect. I remember people saying they would never own. a cell phone - too unreliable. ahem...


A “problem”??? Yikes these are very serious issues. BTW I am a proponent of EVs - just don’t force them down our throats. It should be a choice. I believe that EVs will become the majority of vehicles at some time in the next decade or so. But do not feel that those who do not move are Against that technology. But it must make financial sense for consumers. For us not yet. Period.

BTW just heard that the new Bill signed will provide EV buyers earning up to $250,000/ yr to get the $7500 tax credit. OMG.

BTW if we do go EV I would go to a plug in hybrid. Best of both worlds IMO. Most have EV/electric range at about 50 miles which would be perfect for us. That coupled with the gas engine would get a 400+ mile range and stop for gas on long trips. And or plug it in to get the Electric range too. The Hyundai Tucson is rated very highly and tops in the tech. Just sayin’

[MartinSE]

A “problem”??? Yikes these are very serious issues. BTW I am a proponent of EVs - just don’t force them down our throats. It should be a choice. I believe that EVs will become the majority of vehicles at some time in the next decade or so. But do not feel that those who do not move are Against that technology. But it must make financial sense for consumers. For us not yet. Period.

BTW just heard that the new Bill signed will provide EV buyers earning up to $250,000/ yr to get the $7500 tax credit. OMG.

BTW if we do go EV I would go to a plug in hybrid. Best of both worlds IMO. Most have EV/electric range at about 50 miles which would be perfect for us. That coupled with the gas engine would get a 400+ mile range and stop for gas on long trips. And or plug it in to get the Electric range too. The Hyundai Tucson is rated very highly and tops in the tech. Just sayin’

Fire were a problem with a few, so they replaced them all - yes, just a problem. Not to many years ago Ford and GM both had problems with gas tanks exploding when you got hit. Not one stopped buying ICE at that time. And as I said, fire per mile driven were much lower in EV than ICE.

I really don't understand the constant use of the word "force" when all that is happening is various economic incentives are being provided to ENCOURAGE people to move to EVs - make them more affordable (I think that was one of your criteria.)

GM has announced their new battery pack will have a range of (I think) 450 miles. I am passing on the hybrid, it WAS a good alternative. I do not think we will be replacing either of our cars within the next 2 to 5 years, but when we do replace it/them we will be going EV. 99.9% of our driving is within 200 miles - so, todays models will reach there, where we can eat, charge and drive back.

[Hardlyworking]

Hyundai has a recall on some of their ICE models. They recommend you park them outside in case of fire.

[MartinSE]

Hyundai has a recall on some of their ICE models. They recommend you park them outside in case of fire.

Safety regulators are making that requirement. The problem is not with the batteries, it is with the charge controller and a defective fuse. They are fixing that also, just like GM fixed theirs.

ICE vehicles has 35 million cars recalled from 1000 recalls last year.

[Bay Kid]

The revenue benefit will come from NOT wasting money and making the Saudis rich. Cleaner AIR will let US citizens live longer and have longer PRODUCTIVE years. CLEANER AIR will increase average health and cut down on wasted time for patients being hospitalized.

2 years ago we weren't making the Saudis rich, America was getting rich. The only thing getting cleaner is American's pockets.

[Tvflguy]

2 years ago we weren't making the Saudis rich, America was getting rich. The only thing getting cleaner is American's pockets.

Absolutely correct. And one reason why in prior posts I alluded that car owners are being pushed to go EV. Gas prices Would not be high as they are if we had policies as in the past. Putin no doubt would not have moved and we would be fulfilling our own energy needs. Then, at a proper pace, conversion to more Green energy without bankrupting our country, and watch other countries pump pollution into the atmosphere.

And $7500 EV rebate to folks earning $200-250K year. Funded by income taxes from more than 2/3 of the USA taxpayers whose income can’t come close to that….
As I had posted before at my tax rate I could NOT use even a small portion of that Credit if I buy an EV even though I’m paying taxes…

The rich get richer including those in charge of making the rules…

[MartinSE]

2 years ago we weren't making the Saudis rich, America was getting rich. The only thing getting cleaner is American's pockets.

Political comments are supposed to not be allowed.

Sorry you have been deceived

[Tvflguy]

Political comments are supposed to not be allowed.

Sorry you have been deceived

Political? C’mon give it a break.

[JMintzer]

Fire were a problem with a few, so they replaced them all - yes, just a problem. Not to many years ago Ford and GM both had problems with gas tanks exploding when you got hit.

"Not too many years ago"?

Wasn't that like 40-50 years ago? And didn't NBC "Dateline" get caught rigging those trucks to explode on impact?

NBC Admits It Rigged Crash, Settles GM Suit - Los Angeles Times (https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1993-02-10-mn-1335-story.html)

[Byte1]

Why is it that no one mentions how much it costs to charge these EV's on the go, away from home? Not sure if this is fact so I will caveat my next statement that this is third party word of mouth. A neighbor my wife spoke to said she traveled to another state in her EV to visit family lately and paid $48 to charge it up at one of the charging stations. She figured that it cost her the equivalent of $6.25 per gallon of gasoline. I have no idea what make and size EV she has so it's no use asking. I am just throwing this out there so someone with an EV can tell me how much they are paying on a trip and not using their home charger.
As for an answer to those suggesting that gas users are paying the Middle East for oil, it seems to me that not too long ago we were oil independent. Besides, what is the difference between paying a ME country and paying China?
I am not against EV's. I am against being FORCED or PUSHED into converting to EVs. They can coexist in this country just like the gas powered and battery powered golf carts do.
$7500 tax break is not going to help me or convince me to purchase an EV and I imagine that many low income workers feel the same. Right now, an EV is not a viable option for me.

[MartinSE]

Why is it that no one mentions how much it costs to charge these EV's on the go, away from home? Not sure if this is fact so I will caveat my next statement that this is third party word of mouth. A neighbor my wife spoke to said she traveled to another state in her EV to visit family lately and paid $48 to charge it up at one of the charging stations. She figured that it cost her the equivalent of $6.25 per gallon of gasoline. I have no idea what make and size EV she has so it's no use asking. I am just throwing this out there so someone with an EV can tell me how much they are paying on a trip and not using their home charger.
As for an answer to those suggesting that gas users are paying the Middle East for oil, it seems to me that not too long ago we were oil independent. Besides, what is the difference between paying a ME country and paying China?
I am not against EV's. I am against being FORCED or PUSHED into converting to EVs. They can coexist in this country just like the gas powered and battery powered golf carts do.
$7500 tax break is not going to help me or convince me to purchase an EV and I imagine that many low income workers feel the same. Right now, an EV is not a viable option for me.

Interesting, the following is for Tesla's, you didn't mention which EV they have:

Here are the calculations for two Tesla models:

Tesla Model Y

The Model Y features a 75 kWh battery. Multiply that by the average commercial cost of $0.22 per kWh, account for 95% charging efficiency, and you’re looking at a price of $17.21 to charge the Tesla on a Supercharger or DCFC equivalent.

Breaking it down in terms of mileage, the Long Range Model Y costs approximately $0.053 per mile or $5.28 per 100 miles.

On the other hand, a Performance Model Y will run you about $0.057 per mile and $5.68 for 100 miles of range.

Tesla Model 3

Moving on to the least expensive Tesla, the 50 kWh battery on the Standard Range Plus Model 3 will cost approximately $11.47 to fully charge, while the 82 kWh batteries on the other trims will run you about $18.82 each.

A Standard Range Plus Model 3 comes out to roughly $0.044 per mile and $4.38 for 100 miles of range. Meanwhile, the Performance Model 3 and its 315-mile range will cost about $0.060 per mile and around $5.97 for 100 miles.

Assuming $3.50/gal for gas, and 30mpg that comes out to about $12 per 100 miles. Or a little over twice the cost of the EV.

So, around $0.07/mile for EV and $0.17/mile for ICE based on total cost per mile for fuel and maintenance. (We would compare resell value, since at the moment used Teslas sell for more than new ones... ahem) That is $0.10/mile. If you drive 15,000 miles per year (low ball average) that saves you $1,500 per year in fuel and maintenance.

[MartinSE]

They can coexist in this country just like the gas powered and battery powered golf carts do.
$7500 tax break is not going to help me or convince me to purchase an EV and I imagine that many low income workers feel the same. Right now, an EV is not a viable option for me.

I agree they can and WILL coexist for decades. Replacing infrastructure and 300 million vehicles will take a while - I expect at least 30 years, assuming we don't have a major depression or recession that resets the clock for a decade.

I thoughtI read the Tax credit will be based on income? (I could be clueless on this, I have read the actually legislation) and you have two pay taxes to use the tax credit, so, if you don't pay at least $7500 in taxes you can't get the whole (or any) tax credit.

And finally, I don't consider incentives to be force. And 30 years is certainly long enough for it not to seriously impact any of us.

For my wife and myself we are happy with our current cars and have no plans to buy an EV soon. If one or both of those have to be replaced we will buy EV then. If full self driving becomes available, then we will probably purchase, since driving is becoming more and more stressful for us.

So, each has to make their own decision about if now is a good time to buy, or to wait. Our timeline (barring unexpected) is about 5 years before we purchase.

[retiredguy123]

The tax credit is an incentive to the buyer of an EV, but the taxpayers are forced to pay for the credit.

[Stu from NYC]

The tax credit is an incentive to the buyer of an EV, but the taxpayers are forced to pay for the credit.

The market should decide the winner of EV and internal combustion engines as long as we make the auto makers strive for cleaner emissions.

[Stu from NYC]

Political comments are supposed to not be allowed.

Sorry you have been deceived

Think you are stretching what political is allowed and what is not. On some level everything is political

[Altavia]

Has anyone here who has purchased an EV sold/traded it to switch back to gas?

[Jimbob the Newbie]

"There Are No Charging Stations Between Here and Where I Want to Go."

Take a quick look at this map. Those pretty yellow dots are not urban lights. Each one represents a charging station of one kind or another, all along the Eastern Seaboard. Range anxiety just isn't a thing anymore.

EV Range and Smart Route Planner (https://evnavigation.com/)

[jimjamuser]

Yep this is the Bolt EV / EUV you’re referring to. This is the one that had battery fires and was banned from parking lots etc etc. I’m a member of their Facebook site since I may …possibly… buy an EV, prospect in the future. There are some other EVs, but more $$$ that are rated much better. The Bolt had that jellybean shape - uggg. And has its share of issues.

GM will be conducting a recall of Bolt EVs (2017-2022) and Bolt EUVs (2022) to address the risk of battery fires in these vehicles. Out of an abundance of caution, GM will replace defective lithium-ion battery modules in Chevrolet Bolt EVs and EUVs with new lithium-ion modules.

There are 7 fuel/propulsion system complaints, 5 powertrain complaints, 3 that relate to service brakes, and 2 to do with steering. Airbag, lane departure, suspension, tires, and vehicle speed control issues also feature.

Also, batteries catching on fire isn’t the only issue with batteries. Bradley Berman, who writes for Autoweek, says he leased a Bolt for three years. During that time, his battery pack was replaced three times due to cell failure. The car didn’t go up in flames, it simply stopped on the road leaving him stranded!

Oh by the way batteries come from China. So a purchase profits our ‘enemy’ and probably worker abuse etc etc. yes, be good to the next generation and fund China even more…
OK. I can accept ALL the DETAILS of that post. Please accept that I wrote a GENERAL framework and philosophy of the BENEFITS of EV ownership, which I note you also see as a possible path forward. So, we agree about that GENERAL principle. Chevrolet has never (since 1957) been a PARAGON of quality control. After 1957 they decided that STYLE sold cars and since then I have realized that Japan and Germany produced better quality vehicles.

I merely said that the Chevrolet EV has a REASONABLE price or $ 40 K, which I believe is true. I have NOT myself been researching the details of ANY or all EVs. With my current budget, I have purchased an E-bike and I am considering buying an electric golf cart. I don't have the budget for a full size vehicle - if and when I do, I will research the full size EVs. EVs and their development are in their INFANCY - even some Teslas have exploded or caught fire - ICE vehicles catch fire often, also! There are many people in TV Land that can afford a Tesla or BMW or Japanese EV. Perhaps they should take the advice of the poster that recommends that Chevrolet EVs be avoided.

I stand by my post because it suggested that EVs, whether large or small or at whatever price point - are worth considering because of the general principles and advantages that I posted. EVs with their REVOLVING electric motors have theoretical and inherent advantages for RELIABILITY and LOWER operating costs over their RICIPROCATING piston ICE vehicles.

[jimjamuser]

2 years ago we weren't making the Saudis rich, America was getting rich. The only thing getting cleaner is American's pockets.
People can have different opinions. My opinion is that we have been making Saudi Arabia RICH for, at least, 80 years. The US has the most ICE vehicles in the world so we are the ones MOSTLY making them RICH. And they are NOT our allies. So, it is patriotic for the US to switch away from ICE vehicles and equipment and toward EV equipment. People can start small with electrical weed eaters, electrical lawn mowers, E riding mowers, E-golf carts, E-bikes and later work their way up to electrical cars and trucks.

That way we can eliminate oil dependence on the Middle East and lower the use of US oil, which can be used for a large list of commercial products. That would allow the US oil supply to last longer, while avoiding the entanglements of Middle East war potential and help Europe from being dependent on Russian oil.

All these international affairs are intertwined with the US's switch from ICE petroleum products to E-products.

[billethkid]

Think you are stretching what political is allowed and what is not. On some level everything is political

oh how so very true!!!

[loutapes]

With all the news re Electric vehicles, how likely are YOU to purchase one? If not, why not?

For me, our 5 year old gas vehicle is perfectly fine for many many years. And at our tax rate cannot use any Tax Credit to lower price. But if our situation changed I would consider.

Not remotely interested. I have a 2017 Caddy XT 5 Platinum edition with 30M miles on it with a 68M mil warranty. NO reason to buy a new car especially an electric car. I drive less than 10M a year

[MartinSE]

Political? C’mon give it a break.

Really, let’s see what could have happened about two years ago to change the source of oil, in some peoples minds, I know, it’s okay for those comments, as long as no one calls them out.

Yeah, so, give me a break

[MartinSE]

The tax credit is an incentive to the buyer of an EV, but the taxpayers are forced to pay for the credit.

Taxes and tax spending are and always have been a form of social engineering. Whether they are good or bad is a matter of opinion.

[MartinSE]

Think you are stretching what political is allowed and what is not. On some level everything is political

Sadly, true, very true. Guess I am a little sensitive since my last vacation only an even less political statement. But, I a, sure degree is in the eye of the beholder.

It was just annoying how a perfectly civil conversation of differing views was interrupted by something with little relavence.

[Spectreron]

As I understand it, whether or not you itemize has nothing to do with the $7500 EV tax credit. It is a credit deducted directly from your total tax obligation. But, you must have a tax obligation for the year to get the credit. So, as long as you paid at least $7500 in Federal income tax, you will fully benefit from the credit. If your tax obligation is less than $7500, you can only claim the amount of your tax obligation. However, there is a possibility that the car manufacturers will price the vehicles higher because they are aware of the tax credit you will receive.

The tax credit is a refundable credit, so you would get it all. The credit starting in 2024 will be applied directly at the dealer and will come off the bottom line. Manufacturers can't price the cars much higher, they are already close to the allowed price ceilings.

[Tvflguy]

Really, let’s see what could have happened about two years ago to change the source of oil, in some peoples minds, I know, it’s okay for those comments, as long as no one calls them out.

Yeah, so, give me a break

Yep, really. Just as some poster said a bit ago, almost anything can be termed political. Mention “oil” and a bit of history, and that’s taboo?

I’m glad the Mods let the leash slack a bit here and there. At least they’re not ultra-sensitive I guess.

I’m all for EVs and transitioning to Greener energy. We must do it wisely and methodically without SO negatively impacting our economic future in the USA. We will not be strong if we bankrupt ourselves. We need common sense on this and other critical issues. Issues such as giving so much of our core manufacturing strengths to many Asian countries, including some “enemies”. But I digress.

[MartinSE]

I think the villages are an excellent place for EVs to make an entry. With so many multimodal paths the potential for a low speed limited range vehicle for shopping and entertainment is pretty obvious.

Atomic is an example, but from my perspective a bit too expensive for what it is.

Something with 100 mile range, over night charging. Two seater, AC, radio, comfy seating, good ride and for maybe $10k. About the size of the Smartcar.

Also, I have heard, read rumors of a self driving taxi/Uber like service was supposed to be coming here. That also would seem to be an excellent idea. Pay $50/month and have a car on call arriving in 10 minutes after you summons it.

Lots of opportunities. But, I do think the idea of pay $40k for 4000 lbs of steel, $50/mth insurance, $600/mth maintenance for a car that goes 120 mph less than 1% of the time and takes up space sitting in a garage 95% of the time is a Dinosaur in need of being extinct.

[jimjamuser]

Think you are stretching what political is allowed and what is not. On some level everything is political
True, everything involves politics to some extent. We are ALL swimming in an ocean of it.It controls the water temperature and the water quality. It gives us our boundaries that we rely on.

[fdpaq0580]

I wonder, what would Jesus drive if he was alive today?

[jimjamuser]

I wonder, what would Jesus drive if he was alive today?
He/she would drive...........................AWAY

[billethkid]

changed my mind!

[Cobullymom]

Battery replacement is ridiculously high and they all end up in a toxic dump. When they give us all free solar panels to recharge, maybe I’ll consider it. They give away free to everyone, but the middle class citizens…



With all the news re Electric vehicles, how likely are YOU to purchase one? If not, why not?

For me, our 5 year old gas vehicle is perfectly fine for many many years. And at our tax rate cannot use any Tax Credit to lower price. But if our situation changed I would consider.

[billethkid]

He/she would drive...........................AWAY

Can only be viewed as BAIT!
----------------------------------------------------------------
:bowdown:

[MartinSE]

Battery replacement is ridiculously high and they all end up in a toxic dump. When they give us all free solar panels to recharge, maybe I’ll consider it. They give away free to everyone, but the middle class citizens…

Battery replacement costs seem high. When included in the total cost of ownership the cost of the EV is still less than half that of most comparable ICE - ie. Tesla Model 3 vs Toyota.

The batteries are warranted for 8 years or 150,000 miles. At that point the estimated range of the battery pack is 70% of the original. Of the owners reporting having driven that far, most are reporting significantly higher battery range than 70% of original. So, after 150,000 miles, your range on a 300 mile version is warrantied to be at least 210 miles.

Replacement cost TODAY is approximately $4,000 per battery pack, the depending on the model Tesla's have between 4 and 5 battery packs. So, a maximum cost to replaced all batteries is $16,000 to $20,000. Amortized over 150,000 miles a $20,000 battery replacement will comes to $0.13/mile. Adding in an average cost of $0.05/mile for electricity that comes to roughly $0.18/mile.

The average cost per mile to drive an ICE vehicle today is $0.16/mile ($4.00/gal @25 miles/gal) not including maintenance, so IF you had to replace the batteries today, the TCO (total cost of ownership) would be approximately equal (depending on gas price remaining less than $4.00/gal for the next 10 years (highly unlikely, it is predicted to go up significantly, we just had a surge to $6.00/gal due to global conditions) - ignoring the other savings in maintenance required by ICE vehicles that are not needed on EVs.

The costs in kilowatt-hours (kWh) of electric batteries has fallen by 89% over the past 10 years, from $1,191/kWh in 2010. If that same reduction in price of batteries continues the replacement cost of the batteries will be approximately $400 to $500, or a total of $2,500, bringing the total cost of ownership of the EV down to less than $0.02/mile plus the $0.05/mile for electricity (assuming electricity does not go down in cost as fossil fuels are replaced by less expensive solar/wind/hydro etc sources).

That results in $0.07/mile which is the "less than half" I stated above.

Over the Air updates keep Teslas "usable" for a much longer life, than ICE vehicles which begin falling behind the technology curve the moment they are produced.

Also, battery technology is advancing rapidly. I have given NO estimates of the expected range of a battery pack purchased 10 years from now, but some estimates of 2x to 4x of todays ranges are not uncommon as new, higher density cleaner battery chemistries are brought into production. GM in particular has designed a battery system that allows upgrading batteries with new technology. Tesla's may or may not be able to upgrade to newer technology in the future. At this point they can replace old batteries with newer technology I see no reason to think they will not continue this practice.

When you replace the engine in a ICE (200,000 miles? if maintained) you get the same engine with the same technology and can expect the same performance etc. With new batteries you can expect improved performance, ie. range, charging rate, performance etc.

The advancement in technology of the batteries is why I personally do not recommend anyone with a good serviceable ICE rush out and buy an EV right now. Things will get better while you wait. If you are in the market for a new car now, EVs can and DO compete with the cost of ICE and at the same time help reduce carbon footprints, encourage further development by manufacturers etc.

If your ICE is new (less than 2 or 3 years old) I would recommend driving it for another 5 years, and you will likely see EV cost drop significantly as auto manufactures around the world begin converting to EV. In that time frame it would not be surprising to see range go up by 50% to 70% (GM is already offering a new EV with 460 mile range - to be released soon), total battery mileage will likely go up over 200,000 miles and cost to replace the batteries likely be half what it is today ($8,000 to $10,000).

If you are a leading edge kind of person, it is safe to say that purchasing a Tesla (or Chevy Bolt EUV) today will have a TCO of less than the equivalent ICE today.

EDIT: I don't know where you read/heard that the batteries end up in a toxic waste dump. That is not true, the batteries are being recycled.

[Chi-Town]

At one time electric cars outnumbered gasoline powered cars 10 to 1. There were even charging stations available. 120 years later and history is repeating itself. And with the electricity infrastructure everywhere it looks like this will be no passing phase. Cash for clunkers may be just around the corner.

[Tvflguy]

And in the last couple weeks since the Green Bill was passed, many EV prices had been raised. Hmmm. Coincidence ???

More and more out of the financial range of average Americans???

[MartinSE]

And in the last couple weeks since the Green Bill was passed, many EV prices had been raised. Hmmm. Coincidence ???

More and more out of the financial range of average Americans???

EVs are still in the very early stages of development. As I have posted before, flat screen televisions (monitors) started retail life at about $16,000 for a 18 inch screen. Now it is hard to find a CRT. Early adopters are funding the development of EVs.

[dadspet]

With all the news re Electric vehicles, how likely are YOU to purchase one? If not, why not?

For me, our 5 year old gas vehicle is perfectly fine for many many years. And at our tax rate cannot use any Tax Credit to lower price. But if our situation changed I would consider.

94877

I wonder how many people taught gasoline autos would never replace horse carriages. Made sense, at first there where no gas stations and at first gas didn't even have a use except to convert it to kerosene for lights. I bet some of those same people wore suspenders and wouldn't buy a belt.(Ops I almost forgot I have suspenders on my TUX). My next car could very well be a Hybrid (haven't done the math yet) but my biggest worry now is how can I convert my V12 XKE Jag into electric. If anyone knows of a YOUTUBE video showing how please share it.

[retiredguy123]

94877

I wonder how many people taught gasoline autos would never replace horse carriages. Made sense, at first there where no gas stations and at first gas didn't even have a use except to convert it to kerosene for lights. I bet some of those same people wore suspenders and wouldn't buy a belt.(Ops I almost forgot I have suspenders on my TUX). My next car could very well be a Hybrid (haven't done the math yet) but my biggest worry now is how can I convert my V12 XKE Jag into electric. If anyone knows of a YOUTUBE video showing how please share it.
To me, it looks like an apples to oranges comparison. A car offers many obvious advantages over riding a horse. But, I don't see any obvious advantages to an electric vehicle over a gasoline vehicle. At least, not at this point.

[Caymus]

Battery prices keeps increasing. Big technology changes will be needed to make them affordable. Ford just announced a price increase.

Ford raises prices of F-150 Lightning electric truck by thousands of dollars, citing rising material costs. | Worldnewsera | xklsv (https://xklsv.com/ford-raises-prices-of-f-150-lightning-electric-truck-by-thousands-of-dollars-citing-rising-material-costs/worldnewsera/August-9th-2022/2274199#:~:text=Ford%20raises%20prices%20of%20F-150%20Lightning%20electric%20truck,popular%20F-150%20Lightning%20because%20of%20rising%20material s%20costs).

[Kdvmw]

Are there any charging stations in TV

[Oldragbagger]

We just got rid of a big gas guzzling truck in March, along with our RV, when we sold our home up north. We really wanted to reduce our carbon footprint for our move to TV. Along with our electric golf cart we wanted to buy a hybrid. We really, really wanted to. But there were none to be had in a price range we could afford. All incoming deliveries were presold. There were a few models on the lot if we wanted to spend in the $50k range. We didn’t. So we bought a little Hyundai Venue. We are averaging 37 mpg driving around locally, and 44 on the highway. Electric vehicle technology and support would need to improve greatly before we would ever consider it. Probably won’t happen in our lifetime. So, we drive our little electric cart when we can, and don’t feel bad about our very fuel efficient car the rest of the time.

[SusanKD]

I would never own one!

[Byte1]

I won't buy an electric car because they are not good for the environment. Oil is organic and has been used since man first burned it in their lamps. Maybe once they come out with a battery/storage that is made of something less hazardous than lithium, I will think about switching. Since the air is cleaner now than when I was a child, I am not overly concerned about the environment and I do not believe in man-made climate change. Although, man's application of science toward farming has eliminated the "dust bowl" effect, so I guess technically that is a positive effect of man-caused climate change, sort of. Personally, I enjoy the benefit of fossil fuel powered vehicles, especially the sound of a powerful motorcycle revving and powering down the highway, as well as old muscle cars.

[tophcfa]

Not to cross thread, but I would most likely take a trip to Sawgrass Grove and actually find nothing to criticize before buying an electric vehicle.

[laboutj]

Would I buy all-electric? No. But I did drive a hybrid for the first time from Lynk and Co as a rental while on vacation in Europe and was very impressed. Of course it's not available in North America but if it were I'd seriously consider it.

[Vermilion Villager]

26 pages of posts (opinions). I'd be curious to know how many of the people who are against an electric vehicle I've ever actually driven one?

[JMintzer]

26 pages of posts (opinions). I'd be curious to know how many of the people who are against an electric vehicle I've ever actually driven one?

I have. It drives just fine...But it's not about "how" it drives...

I still need a vehicle that I can go up and down the east coast (DC to TV).

For me, right now, an EV is not in the cards...

Now, It's certainly consider a hybrid when I replace my ICE vehicle, and once I move to TV full time, an EV would certainly be considered as a 2nd vehicle...

[Catalina36]

With all the news re Electric vehicles, how likely are YOU to purchase one? If not, why not?

For me, our 5 year old gas vehicle is perfectly fine for many many years. And at our tax rate cannot use any Tax Credit to lower price. But if our situation changed I would consider.

Electric Vehicles (cars)?? A lot of Villagers dumped their Electric Golf Carts and went over to Gas Golf Carts for the same reasons people are not buying EV's. EV's may be good for short trips and require less maintenance and only if you are charging them at home. In reality EV's are not for long distance driving. When was the last time you saw a charging station? By the way charging stations are not free!! I recently read that "you should not charge your EV in your garage" they are worried about a fire?? Do you have any idea how much electric it would take to do a quick charge on a EV. You would require a very high output charging station / cord using a lot of amps/watts. A small charger would takes hours of charging. Hope you dont need that vehicle in a hurry with a low charged battery? I could never understand why dont they install Solar Panels on these cars so when you are parked in a shopping center, driveway, or at the beach the batteries could be charging up?? I guess solar panels are not pretty.

[Bay Kid]

I have. It drives just fine...But it's not about "how" it drives...

I still need a vehicle that I can go up and down the east coast (DC to TV).

For me, right now, an EV is not in the cards...

Now, It's certainly consider a hybrid when I replace my ICE vehicle, and once I move to TV full time, an EV would certainly be considered as a 2nd vehicle...

Taxpayers are getting ready to build charging stations all over the country, hopefully where you need them.

I wonder if there will be a charge to fill her up?

Also different EVs take different chargers?

Will lounges be built also to be used while waiting your turn and while charging?

[tophcfa]

Taxpayers are getting ready to build charging stations all over the country, hopefully where you need them.

I would modify that statement to say that politicians are getting ready to use taxpayers money to build charging stations all over the country.

[retiredguy123]

26 pages of posts (opinions). I'd be curious to know how many of the people who are against an electric vehicle I've ever actually driven one?
I'm not against electric vehicles. But, I haven't heard a convincing argument as to why we should be spending trillions of dollars to transition to them. If they are better than gasoline vehicles, people will buy them. Driving an electric vehicle will not change my opinion about that.

[jebartle]

Yup, made the leap to electric 15 years ago.

[Michael G.]

Electrics are great for certain applications, but not for every day dependable vehicle transportation.

I see a real future for electrics in boat motors, motorcycles, golfcarts, lawn maintenance equipment, but not
were temperatures can drop below freezing for any length of time.

Unless of course there's a big breakthrough in battery's.

[rjm1cc]

I use an electric golf cart for probably 90+% of my local driving. My gas car sits in the garage but I will keep it for years as long as it is reliable. Since I have a second gas car I can see that I would replace one with electric that I intended to drive only in my hometown.
I think, because of the carbon associated with the manufacturing of the batteries and the carbon from the production of electric that my gas car would probably be responsible for less carbon than the new electric one. I would be driving less than 5000 miles a year.

[Vermilion Villager]

I use an electric golf cart for probably 90+% of my local driving. My gas car sits in the garage but I will keep it for years as long as it is reliable. Since I have a second gas car I can see that I would replace one with electric that I intended to drive only in my hometown.
I think, because of the carbon associated with the manufacturing of the batteries and the carbon from the production of electric that my gas car would probably be responsible for less carbon than the new electric one. I would be driving less than 5000 miles a year.
Those who go down the energy production route always seem to overlook the amount of energy used to produce a gallon of gasoline. It's massive! Plus your battery can be charged from multiple sources, including solar and wind, both which are low carbon. A gallon of gasoline only comes from one place…

[Byte1]

Those who go down the energy production route always seem to overlook the amount of energy used to produce a gallon of gasoline. It's massive! Plus your battery can be charged from multiple sources, including solar and wind, both which are low carbon. A gallon of gasoline only comes from one place…

And yet it only takes a few minutes to fill my gas tank. It takes HOURS to fill a battery to go a few miles. Good luck when paying for a full charge because the price of charging is higher than a tank of gas. Lithium is also dangerous and there is no where near enough to support an all EV world. Mining lithium? Before running totally toward electric power, we better figure out how to get more of it for use. We will still have to live with oil produced products, even if we get rid of gas powered vehicles. I think that Hydrogen power should be considered before electric powered vehicles.

[MorTech]

A lot Retirees in TV could benefit greatly with electric cars since most rarely drive a car long distance and EVs are basically maintenance free (Won't get ripped off at the car Stealerships). Costco is 120 mile RT...Orlando and Tampa airports are about 170 miles RT...Most EVs get realistically about 250 miles per charge. Just plug them into 120V plug and it will charge at about 4 miles per hour and cost about 4 cents a mile in electricity. The only real maintenance is tires and wiper blades.

Economic sense.....Not really.

[Nucky]

A couple weeks ago I ordered a 2023 BMW X5 M50i which should be delivered in two or three months so not for a while. I need range and quick refueling so I am sticking with gasoline for now. Hybrids are a great option IMHO. My brother has had a Lexus R450h for a few years. He and his wife reside in Arizona and take long road trips all over the western US so this vehicle works out very well for them.

Good luck with your purchase. We were passed by a X5 on our way home in Virginia. What a spectacular car. It was green but a beautiful shade of green!

Our son who owns the Plaid has had a few problems lately and needs new tires and he is upset because the car has about 17000 miles. It’s because he has a heavy foot and always smokes the tires. I think he’s past the novelty of The Tesla.

Anyway good luck and enjoy your purchase!

[positiveinlife]

Lithium extraction inevitably harms the soil and causes air contamination.
According to a report by Friends of the Earth (FoE), lithium extraction inevitably harms the soil and causes air contamination. As demand rises, the mining impacts are “increasingly affecting communities where this harmful extraction takes place, jeopardising their access to water,” says the report.

So much for ev's being GREEN .The mining of lithium is a large cause of pollution.

[Rainger99]

According to the census, the median household income was $67,521 in 2020 (before taxes), a decrease of 2.9 percent from the 2019 median of $69,560.

The average price for an electric car is $66,000.

Unless we are going to get a $30,000 to 40,000 tax credit, most Americans will not be able to afford it. However, if climate change is an existential threat to humanity and will destroy the planet in (is it 0, 8, or 10 years), we have no choice but to buy electric cars for everyone in the country - and probably the world!

[Tvflguy]

According to the census, the median household income was $67,521 in 2020 (before taxes), a decrease of 2.9 percent from the 2019 median of $69,560.

The average price for an electric car is $66,000.

Unless we are going to get a $30,000 to 40,000 tax credit, most Americans will not be able to afford it. However, if climate change is an existential threat to humanity and will destroy the planet in (is it 0, 8, or 10 years), we have no choice but to buy electric cars for everyone in the country - and probably the world!

I don’t know about y’all, but even a $7500 tax credit does not apply to me. Let alone many more thousands in Credit some are advocating …. for a year. Our finances are just fine and cozy but our annual fed tax bill is not close to $7500. So we would be leaving a bunch of bucks on the table if we’d ever buy an EV with the credit. BUT we are assuming some of the $$$ payout from our tax dollars to those who get and use those credits primarily the rich who can afford the average $66K EV. grrr

[Bay Kid]

Good luck with your purchase. We were passed by a X5 on our way home in Virginia. What a spectacular car. It was green but a beautiful shade of green!

Our son who owns the Plaid has had a few problems lately and needs new tires and he is upset because the car has about 17000 miles. It’s because he has a heavy foot and always smokes the tires. I think he’s past the novelty of The Tesla.

Anyway good luck and enjoy your purchase!

A couple weeks ago I ordered a 2023 BMW X5 M50i which should be delivered in two or three months so not for a while. I need range and quick refueling so I am sticking with gasoline for now. Hybrids are a great option IMHO. My brother has had a Lexus R450h for a few years. He and his wife reside in Arizona and take long road trips all over the western US so this vehicle works out very well for them.

I have a '23 BMW X5 M50i on order. Takes 4-6 weeks to build, then I'm taking delivery at the Performance School. You should give it a try. No extra charge and great fun. I also have a hybrid Avalon that is great. But I don't want an EV.

[Stu from NYC]

Lithium extraction inevitably harms the soil and causes air contamination.
According to a report by Friends of the Earth (FoE), lithium extraction inevitably harms the soil and causes air contamination. As demand rises, the mining impacts are “increasingly affecting communities where this harmful extraction takes place, jeopardising their access to water,” says the report.

So much for ev's being GREEN .The mining of lithium is a large cause of pollution.

People pushing EV's do not like to talk about stuff like this do they.

[Bay Kid]

People pushing EV's do not like to talk about stuff like this do they.

They don't want to talk about this but without oil there would be no EVs.

[JMintzer]

They don't want to talk about this but without oil there would be no EVs.

https://media1.giphy.com/media/Ow59c0pwTPruU/200.gif

[Babubhat]

Lithium price is up 400 percent this year and going higher. The yearly output only is enough for all of the UK. No idea how they will make them affordable without massive subsidy

[MorTech]

Less powerful than gasoline. I cannot remember the numbers but I recall that natural gas is only 80% as powerful as gasoline.

I am going to wait for Antimatter vehicles to become available...

Energy density - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density)

Lithium is a joke :)

[MorTech]

Hydrogen power would make some sense with nuclear power to crack it. Hydrogen gas is extremely volatile so it would make more sense to use nuclear power to synthesize liquid hydrocarbons (greater than C4 - Butane).

[MorTech]

Yes of course we all know that little dark-skinned kids wading in mudpuddles is how lithium and cobalt are mined...The mass media told us so.

[MorTech]

The entire "Climate Change" hoax is to get the little people to except nuclear power.

[MorTech]

Please define vicious push? There are incentives, there is NOTHING penalizing you for buying ICE.

Please correct me. Vicious - LOL! I rank this as the funniest comment in this thread.

CAFE Fines...Carbon Credits...Tax Credits....

Just to name a few.

Have you priced a new ICE pickup truck?

[MorTech]

At least learn to spell her name correctly. If feel sorry for you if a high school kid is your idol.

The mentally ill Swedish teenager is my authority on physical reality as well.

[MorTech]

Natural gas like oil is a worldwide commodity on a worldwide exchange. It would be impossible for one rich American or ONE anybody to corner the natural gas market.

How do you transport Natgas worldwide? It has to be contained in a pressurized pipe or liquified at -260F. Oil, being a liquid, you just transport in a big tub.

[MorTech]

Battery replacement costs seem high. When included in the total cost of ownership the cost of the EV is still less than half that of most comparable ICE - ie. Tesla Model 3 vs Toyota.

The batteries are warranted for 8 years or 150,000 miles. At that point the estimated range of the battery pack is 70% of the original. Of the owners reporting having driven that far, most are reporting significantly higher battery range than 70% of original. So, after 150,000 miles, your range on a 300 mile version is warrantied to be at least 210 miles.

Replacement cost TODAY is approximately $4,000 per battery pack, the depending on the model Tesla's have between 4 and 5 battery packs. So, a maximum cost to replaced all batteries is $16,000 to $20,000. Amortized over 150,000 miles a $20,000 battery replacement will comes to $0.13/mile. Adding in an average cost of $0.05/mile for electricity that comes to roughly $0.18/mile.

The average cost per mile to drive an ICE vehicle today is $0.16/mile ($4.00/gal @25 miles/gal) not including maintenance, so IF you had to replace the batteries today, the TCO (total cost of ownership) would be approximately equal (depending on gas price remaining less than $4.00/gal for the next 10 years (highly unlikely, it is predicted to go up significantly, we just had a surge to $6.00/gal due to global conditions) - ignoring the other savings in maintenance required by ICE vehicles that are not needed on EVs.

The costs in kilowatt-hours (kWh) of electric batteries has fallen by 89% over the past 10 years, from $1,191/kWh in 2010. If that same reduction in price of batteries continues the replacement cost of the batteries will be approximately $400 to $500, or a total of $2,500, bringing the total cost of ownership of the EV down to less than $0.02/mile plus the $0.05/mile for electricity (assuming electricity does not go down in cost as fossil fuels are replaced by less expensive solar/wind/hydro etc sources).

That results in $0.07/mile which is the "less than half" I stated above.

Over the Air updates keep Teslas "usable" for a much longer life, than ICE vehicles which begin falling behind the technology curve the moment they are produced.

Also, battery technology is advancing rapidly. I have given NO estimates of the expected range of a battery pack purchased 10 years from now, but some estimates of 2x to 4x of todays ranges are not uncommon as new, higher density cleaner battery chemistries are brought into production. GM in particular has designed a battery system that allows upgrading batteries with new technology. Tesla's may or may not be able to upgrade to newer technology in the future. At this point they can replace old batteries with newer technology I see no reason to think they will not continue this practice.

When you replace the engine in a ICE (200,000 miles? if maintained) you get the same engine with the same technology and can expect the same performance etc. With new batteries you can expect improved performance, ie. range, charging rate, performance etc.

The advancement in technology of the batteries is why I personally do not recommend anyone with a good serviceable ICE rush out and buy an EV right now. Things will get better while you wait. If you are in the market for a new car now, EVs can and DO compete with the cost of ICE and at the same time help reduce carbon footprints, encourage further development by manufacturers etc.

If your ICE is new (less than 2 or 3 years old) I would recommend driving it for another 5 years, and you will likely see EV cost drop significantly as auto manufactures around the world begin converting to EV. In that time frame it would not be surprising to see range go up by 50% to 70% (GM is already offering a new EV with 460 mile range - to be released soon), total battery mileage will likely go up over 200,000 miles and cost to replace the batteries likely be half what it is today ($8,000 to $10,000).

If you are a leading edge kind of person, it is safe to say that purchasing a Tesla (or Chevy Bolt EUV) today will have a TCO of less than the equivalent ICE today.

EDIT: I don't know where you read/heard that the batteries end up in a toxic waste dump. That is not true, the batteries are being recycled.

Nice!

If you limit Supercharging and charge at 0.1C you will almost certainly see better than 80% at 1000 charge cycles. Assuming 7.2kw level 2 on a 72kw battery you "should" see at least 250 of the 300 miles at 300,000 miles. The calendar life on these batteries "should" be at least 12 years and most likely 15 years if you charge slowly and to 90% max.

The new 4680 tabless cells are an improvement and should cost less than $10 each with fully scaled yield...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8c1cmttKpDs

Lithium batteries are recycled...They are frozen with liquid nitrogen and then pulverized and then processed. It's really just that simple.

[MorTech]

Lithium extraction inevitably harms the soil and causes air contamination.
According to a report by Friends of the Earth (FoE), lithium extraction inevitably harms the soil and causes air contamination. As demand rises, the mining impacts are “increasingly affecting communities where this harmful extraction takes place, jeopardising their access to water,” says the report.

So much for ev's being GREEN .The mining of lithium is a large cause of pollution.

Yes, Friends of the Earth - Brilliant Scientist - ALL!

I don't know how one could "harm soil" but I was harmed by soil many times when I played football.

[MorTech]

Villagers are paying $20K for gussied-up Quietechs so conceptually a $45K Ioniq 5 is peanuts :)

[Andyw]

With all the news re Electric vehicles, how likely are YOU to purchase one? If not, why not?

For me, our 5 year old gas vehicle is perfectly fine for many many years. And at our tax rate cannot use any Tax Credit to lower price. But if our situation changed I would consider.

No electric car for me. Can’t drive to sons house and back the same day which I can do with a hybrid or gas car

[Larry J]

[QUOTE=Tvflguy;2123743]With all the news re Electric vehicles, how likely are YOU to purchase one? If not, why not?



I will never own an Electric Vehicle. When I see Air Force One Fly As Electric Thousands of Miles at one Full Charge I May Consider It. This BS of electric, is pushing us back to stone age

[MorTech]

[QUOTE=Tvflguy;2123743]With all the news re Electric vehicles, how likely are YOU to purchase one? If not, why not?



I will never own an Electric Vehicle. When I see Air Force One Fly As Electric Thousands of Miles at one Full Charge I May Consider It. This BS of electric, is pushing us back to stone age

The climate change hoax will push the bottom 90% back into the stone age but that is separate from EVs that can make sense for some people.

[Jimbob the Newbie]

A friend calls conversations like this "Rarely right, but never uncertain."

r/confidentlyincorrect

[kcrazorbackfan]

With all the news re Electric vehicles, how likely are YOU to purchase one? If not, why not?

For me, our 5 year old gas vehicle is perfectly fine for many many years. And at our tax rate cannot use any Tax Credit to lower price. But if our situation changed I would consider.

Zero chance. Nada, never….

[JP]

I think this electric car baloney is temporary. The best vehicles are hybrids and would reduce pollution enough. Until they do something significant in China, India, Africa, etc. forget about any USA changes in CO2 production as essentially a drop in the bucket and unduly directed at the US consumer. The only thing keeping us going right now as a country is our ability to print money and this gravy train is going to end soon.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Not sure if I responded in this or not, and if I did, hopefully my opinion is the same or similar to a month ago. Over 20 pages and I'm too lazy to check.

I'd probably eventually get a hybrid, if charging stations were more plentiful and efficient on highways and even local municipalities.

I would definitely consider an electric golf cart IF I lived more central than I do now AND IF there were a few charging stations north and south of central.

Right now, the country hasn't caught up to the technology yet. In order to charge a fully electric (non-Tesla) vehicle on Florida's Turnpike, you have to let it sit a few HOURS before it's fully juiced up again. Compare to maybe 15 minutes tops if the line at the gas station is long that day at the rest area. If I'm travelling long distances or on the highway, the last thing I want is to be stuck at a rest area for hours on end just to charge some batteries.

Tesla is faster, they have their own charging stations. But it's still more than an hour.

[tuccillo]

Generally not true. Contemporary Tesla Superchargers will give you 200 miles in about 20 minutes. The charging rate is non-linear; the lower the starting SOC the faster the charging. Non-Tesla DC fast chargers can achieve similar rates. To suggest that "hours" is typical is incorrect.

Not sure if I responded in this or not, and if I did, hopefully my opinion is the same or similar to a month ago. Over 20 pages and I'm too lazy to check.

I'd probably eventually get a hybrid, if charging stations were more plentiful and efficient on highways and even local municipalities.

I would definitely consider an electric golf cart IF I lived more central than I do now AND IF there were a few charging stations north and south of central.

Right now, the country hasn't caught up to the technology yet. In order to charge a fully electric (non-Tesla) vehicle on Florida's Turnpike, you have to let it sit a few HOURS before it's fully juiced up again. Compare to maybe 15 minutes tops if the line at the gas station is long that day at the rest area. If I'm travelling long distances or on the highway, the last thing I want is to be stuck at a rest area for hours on end just to charge some batteries.

Tesla is faster, they have their own charging stations. But it's still more than an hour.

[MartinSE]

A friend calls conversations like this "Rarely right, but never uncertain."

r/confidentlyincorrect

Excellent post.

BTW, On the other board yesterday a poster mentioned a friend with an ICE vehicle running back up north from Florida before the hurricane gets here (tonight). They didn't make it - there was NO GAS to buy... ahem... Funny, an EV could park at a motel one night, plug in using an extension cord and get enough to go another hundred miles or more the next day - meanwhile lots of ICE are sitting waiting for gas to get delivered - during a hurricane...

How many times on this forum have we heard the complain that someone would never own a EV because in an emergency there would no where to charge. Ahem...

[TNLAKEPANDA]

With all the news re Electric vehicles, how likely are YOU to purchase one? If not, why not?

For me, our 5 year old gas vehicle is perfectly fine for many many years. And at our tax rate cannot use any Tax Credit to lower price. But if our situation changed I would consider.

I am guessing that a lot of people who live here would… but they are not really practice for the masses. The create way more pollution to manufacture than the might safe. Simply put we are not ready for EV yet. Better options would be hydrogen vehicles.

[TNLAKEPANDA]

Excellent post.

BTW, On the other board yesterday a poster mentioned a friend with an ICE vehicle running back up north from Florida before the hurricane gets here (tonight). They didn't make it - there was NO GAS to buy... ahem... Funny, an EV could park at a motel one night, plug in using an extension cord and get enough to go another hundred miles or more the next day - meanwhile lots of ICE are sitting waiting for gas to get delivered - during a hurricane...

How many times on this forum have we heard the complain that someone would never own a EV because in an emergency there would no where to charge. Ahem...

That is really FUNNY….

[JMintzer]

That is really FUNNY….

I'll take "Things that never happened for $800, Alex..."

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Excellent post.

BTW, On the other board yesterday a poster mentioned a friend with an ICE vehicle running back up north from Florida before the hurricane gets here (tonight). They didn't make it - there was NO GAS to buy... ahem... Funny, an EV could park at a motel one night, plug in using an extension cord and get enough to go another hundred miles or more the next day - meanwhile lots of ICE are sitting waiting for gas to get delivered - during a hurricane...

How many times on this forum have we heard the complain that someone would never own a EV because in an emergency there would no where to charge. Ahem...

When the power goes out because there's a hurricane, you're not going to charge your EV until the power is restored.

[2CopsMom]

With all the news re Electric vehicles, how likely are YOU to purchase one? If not, why not?

For me, our 5 year old gas vehicle is perfectly fine for many many years. And at our tax rate cannot use any Tax Credit to lower price. But if our situation changed I would consider.


Here in the Bluegrass State, we call those coal-fired cars.

[MorTech]

Generally not true. Contemporary Tesla Superchargers will give you 200 miles in about 20 minutes. The charging rate is non-linear; the lower the starting SOC the faster the charging. Non-Tesla DC fast chargers can achieve similar rates. To suggest that "hours" is typical is incorrect.

The sweet spot for rapid charging with minimal cell degradation in lithium chemistry is between 25%-75%...The middle of the cell. The key is to wick heat away from the cell as rapidly as possible. The new tabless 4680 cell is designed to do just that.

[MartinSE]

When the power goes out because there's a hurricane, you're not going to charge your EV until the power is restored.

It was not here. I agree, they had left (along with hundreds of thousands) and when they got someplace north of here, maybe Georgia the stations were sold out of gas. Which was my point. That is one of the exact senecios that has been repeatedly given for not buying an EV, so they would be able to get away when an emergency came up and EVs wouldn't because of the power outage.

[MartinSE]

When the power goes out because there's a hurricane, you're not going to charge your EV until the power is restored.

When the power goes out because of a hurricane, you are advised to NOT go out and drive around. Chances are if you charge at home, you EV will be fully charged and sit in the garage until power comes back on.

If you have a medical emergency, first you are not supposed to drive, you are supposed to call 911 and take a taxi. But, if you decide to drive to a hospital, the 200 mile range will probably get you to a hospital.

So, neither EV or ICE has an advantage in that scenario.

[Aces4]

When the power goes out because of a hurricane, you are advised to NOT go out and drive around. Chances are if you charge at home, you EV will be fully charged and sit in the garage until power comes back on.

If you have a medical emergency, first you are not supposed to drive, you are supposed to call 911 and take a taxi. But, if you decide to drive to a hospital, the 200 mile range will probably get you to a hospital.

So, neither EV or ICE has an advantage in that scenario.

What if the power is out for a week? I suppose one could buy a gas generator for back up charges…. :mornincoffee:

[MartinSE]

What if the power is out for a week? I suppose one could buy a gas generator for back up charges…. :mornincoffee:

Okay, I will bite, where are you going (200 to 250 mile range) if the power is out? Gas stations can't pump or charge you, grocery stores can't run the cash registers, banks are definitely not going to be open, etc.

So, let's accept that the situation occurs and both the EV and an ICE are full. The EV (current) has a 200 to 300 mile capacity, the ICE has a 400 mile capacity.

If you are going up north, are we assuming there is NO power for 200 miles north of here? That would be a pretty serious catastrophe.

52 weeks of 200 miles of driving comes out to 10K per year. That is more than I drive now without a power outage. My point here being I except 200 to 400 miles range is more than most people will need for a week without power.

Also, GM has already announced a 400 mile range (I think for next year). Others are doing the same.

MOST of the arguments I hear/read are saying why EVs won't work now. And I completely agree, if tomorrow we all woke up and found an EV had magically replaced our ICE vehicles, we would be in a world of hurts with circuit breakers popping on all the transmission grids. But that is not going to happen. It is not physically possible to replace 300 million ICE vehicles in even a decade. Even in 3 decades would be a push, that is 10 million cars a year for 30 years. We currently sell about 17 million cars and trucks per year. Converting all those factories to EV is going to take time, so some percentage of that 17 million will become EVs, but certainly not all any time soon. So, we have at least 30 years, probably more, to transition. Meaning improve infrastructure, improve battery technology, convert factories, etc, etc, etc. A lot of work.

Also, I really liked a comment by Jay Leno recently. He expects people to keep their ICE vehicles around for a long time - for those limited cases where the EV is just not appropriate. But the benefits of driving an EV all the other times (two miles to Publix from my house) far out weigh the negatives. So, he expects most people will have one of each for a while until we can transition.

[tuccillo]

There are actually two different chemistries in use by Tesla. Tesla recommends charging their NMC batteries to 80-90% on a regular basis and 100% only for long trips. Tesla recommends charging their LFP batteries to 100% routinely. I believe the 4680s are NMC. Problems with production at scale has limited their availability. Apparently, nearly 50% of Tesla batteries, on a world-wide basis, are LFP. I believe most of the US Teslas are using NMC.

The sweet spot for rapid charging with minimal cell degradation in lithium chemistry is between 25%-75%...The middle of the cell. The key is to wick heat away from the cell as rapidly as possible. The new tabless 4680 cell is designed to do just that.

[Aces4]

Okay, I will bite, where are you going (200 to 250 mile range) if the power is out? Gas stations can't pump or charge you, grocery stores can't run the cash registers, banks are definitely not going to be open, etc.

So, let's accept that the situation occurs and both the EV and an ICE are full. The EV (current) has a 200 to 300 mile capacity, the ICE has a 400 mile capacity.

If you are going up north, are we assuming there is NO power for 200 miles north of here? That would be a pretty serious catastrophe.

52 weeks of 200 miles of driving comes out to 10K per year. That is more than I drive now without a power outage. My point here being I except 200 to 400 miles range is more than most people will need for a week without power.

Also, GM has already announced a 400 mile range (I think for next year). Others are doing the same.

MOST of the arguments I hear/read are saying why EVs won't work now. And I completely agree, if tomorrow we all woke up and found an EV had magically replaced our ICE vehicles, we would be in a world of hurts with circuit breakers popping on all the transmission grids. But that is not going to happen. It is not physically possible to replace 300 million ICE vehicles in even a decade. Even in 3 decades would be a push, that is 10 million cars a year for 30 years. We currently sell about 17 million cars and trucks per year. Converting all those factories to EV is going to take time, so some percentage of that 17 million will become EVs, but certainly not all any time soon. So, we have at least 30 years, probably more, to transition. Meaning improve infrastructure, improve battery technology, convert factories, etc, etc, etc. A lot of work.

Also, I really liked a comment by Jay Leno recently. He expects people to keep their ICE vehicles around for a long time - for those limited cases where the EV is just not appropriate. But the benefits of driving an EV all the other times (two miles to Publix from my house) far out weigh the negatives. So, he expects most people will have one of each for a while until we can transition.

I don’t think Charlotte or Lee counties will have power for a while, sadly. Many people won’t be able to return home. In that situation, I’ll take ICE every time.

[JMintzer]

Okay, I will bite, where are you going (200 to 250 mile range) if the power is out? Gas stations can't pump or charge you, grocery stores can't run the cash registers, banks are definitely not going to be open, etc.

Many, if not most of those places have back up generators... Especially gas stations...

[MartinSE]

I don’t think Charlotte or Lee counties will have power for a while, sadly. Many people won’t be able to return home. In that situation, I’ll take ICE every time.

I understand completely, and we - you and I - have been around this tree many times. EVs are not for you - yet. And that is fine. I know I can come across and trying to convert people, but I am not, I am simply putting my opinion out there, and hoping to hear from people like you that disagree with me.

If no one disagrees with me on a subject it literally scares the bejeezus out of me.

Some will make the change some won't - that is why we have more than one product. Everyone gets to vote with their dollars.

[Jimbob the Newbie]

I understand completely, and we - you and I - have been around this tree many times. EVs are not for you - yet. And that is fine. I know I can come across and trying to convert people, but I am not, I am simply putting my opinion out there, and hoping to hear from people like you that disagree with me.

If no one disagrees with me on a subject it literally scares the bejeezus out of me.

Some will make the change some won't - that is why we have more than one product. Everyone gets to vote with their dollars.

There you go again, making sense and delivering a concise and cogent argument. How dare you???


:highfive:

[Aces4]

There you go again, making sense and delivering a concise and cogent argument. How dare you???


:highfive:

Argument? I thought we were having a discussion. Hmmm… I guess it depends on your mindset.chilout

[Bay Kid]

Many, if not most of those places have back up generators... Especially gas stations...

My Avalon has a range well over 500 miles averaging 50 MPG. I should find gas sooner or later before empty. Then off for another 500+ miles.

[Indy-Guy]

Why now is not the time to buy an electric vehicle. Click on video below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VX8eH1pEO6I

[MartinSE]

My Avalon has a range well over 500 miles averaging 50 MPG. I should find gas sooner or later before empty. Then off for another 500+ miles.

Yes, and I had twin side tanks on a pickup with we lived in the country and so, could go around 1,000 miles even at very poor gas mileage. It doesn't mean I would drive for 8 hours straight without a break, even though I could.

[MartinSE]

I think the point of electric today is what is most of the driving you do - do you drive 500 miles every day? Week? Month? What is your average trip? Doing a little looking the number varies - the average daily driving in the US is 35 miles per day.

Motor Trend did an excellent article comparing (even to the point of establishing average flow rate for the gas pumps vs charger rates for EVs) ICE vs EV and one section covers time to drive 1,000 miles.

To summarize:

ICE would take around 14.7 hours (16.5 for a BMW i3 because of its small tank requiring 12 stops.)

EV average over 52 available models is 15.3 hours for EV. The Mini Cooper SE taking 23.5 hours because of its very low top speed.

The comparison between EV and ICE on a 1,000 mile trip is about 1 hour difference depending of particular vehicle charge/pump rate, etc. (And of course driving style - ahem)

EV vs. Gas: Is 1,000 Miles LTS the Metric of the Future? (https://www.motortrend.com/features/1000-mile-legal-trip-speed-metric-ev-vs-gas/)

Cars are a very emotional subject - people form strong attachments to their cars, binding and even feeling the car reflects their "persona". Having a wide range of choices to fit everyones desires is one of the hurdles EVs have to overcome. Currently in the US there are over 50 models on sale to choose from. Personally, I would say those fall into 3 actually different models (ahem) so, that is certainly a real limitation. But, next year that number is going to explode (Ford F150 will be an EV even) as mainstream companies release many new models.

Personally I think the age of personal cars ownership is rapidly coming to an end. Paying $30K to $50K (I expect here in TV that number is higher) for a new car comes out to around $300/month (not including maintenance and insurance) over 10 years to have a vehicle sit in a garage/driveway 90% or more of the time. (Yes, you recover some of that cost when you sell or trade it - I will address that later - at recovering 50% of the initial cost - ahem, which is not likely for a 10 year old car. I drive an 11 year old Jaguar XF it sold for around $75K new, it will sell in excellent condition today for around $6K to $7K. Your recovery will vary.

What I see coming is time share vehicles.

A fleet of vehicles will operate in an area with full self driving and charging stations. When you want to go someplace you "summons" a car using you phone and within 5 to 10 minutes it arrives at your house. Takes you where you want to go, drops you off and leaves. Then when. you are ready to go someplace else (or home) you summons another ride. Cost will be based on usage with many "plans" to choose from - per ride, per mile, per month or per year. I expect the cost initially to be just "competitive - say around $150/mth for unlimited mileage, but that would cover insurance and maintenance, and reflect to cost of your vehicle recovered when you sell or trade it in after 10 years. Long range travel would likely be similar to one way car rental - higher per mile, but still less than owning and paying for fuel.

Look at the bright side, that garage you paid for can then be used for other things, boats, shops, sitting rooms, etc... or you could keep your favorite ICE parked in there for when you just feel like driving it.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

You would need equipment to compress the natural gas. Equipment to do this has been available for about 10 years but I don't see wide spread adoption. The decision that EVs are the future has already been made by virtually every car maker.

All of the gas company’s vehicles run on natural gas. Even if we couldn’t have hookups in our homes it would still be a simple thing to make it available at gas stations. It would certainly be easier than creating charging stations everywhere.
What I kep thinking about is how the power grid would handle so many electric vehicles, how much pollution is caused creating electricity, building batteries and mining lithium. I also understand that the supply of lithium is getting low.
And then there’s the fact that most fluorocarbon pollution comes from cargo ships. Changing all of cars to electric won’t make a dent in the overall amount of gasses released into the atmosphere.

[retiredguy123]

Timeshare vehicles? I think you need a different name. It may turn off a lot of people who got ripped off buying a condo timeshare.

[tuccillo]

A few thoughts:

1) It is easier to install EV charging stations at existing gas stations than some form of natural gas (LNG or CNG). All existing gas stations have power already in place. Not all existing gas stations have natural gas.

2) There is little work being done on natural gas powered passenger cars, either LNG or CNG, when compared to EVs. Yes, a few models exist but there is little infrastructure to support them. It does make sense for commercial vehicles that leave from and return to the same facility. It is the same issue as with hydrogen powered fuel cells in passenger cars. Hydrogen powered fuel cells certainly makes sense for commercial vehicles leaving from and returning to the same facility, if the cost of hydrogen comes down.

3) There is a substantial amount of money committed to building battery factories in the US. Most automakers have already committed to building only EVs by 2030 or 2035. A large amount of money has already been spent by Tesla on their Supercharger stations and EA on their DC fast chargers. The Federal Government is throwing a lot of money at the installation of EV charging stations. The die is cast.

4) With regard to CO2 emissions, transportation accounts for about 20% of global CO2 emissions. About half of that 20% is from cars and busses.



All of the gas company’s vehicles run on natural gas. Even if we couldn’t have hookups in our homes it would still be a simple thing to make it available at gas stations. It would certainly be easier than creating charging stations everywhere.
What I kep thinking about is how the power grid would handle so many electric vehicles, how much pollution is caused creating electricity, building batteries and mining lithium. I also understand that the supply of lithium is getting low.
And then there’s the fact that most fluorocarbon pollution comes from cargo ships. Changing all of cars to electric won’t make a dent in the overall amount of gasses released into the atmosphere.

[MartinSE]

Timeshare vehicles? I think you need a different name. It may turn off a lot of people who got ripped off buying a condo timeshare.

I completely agree. The name represents the idea, marketing will have to also be worked on - LOL!

[MartinSE]

A few thoughts:

1) It is easier to install EV charging stations at existing gas stations than some form of natural gas (LNG or CNG). All existing gas stations have power already in place. Not all existing gas stations have natural gas.

2) There is little work being done on natural gas powered passenger cars, either LNG or CNG, when compared to EVs. Yes, a few models exist but there is little infrastructure to support them. It does make sense for commercial vehicles that leave from and return to the same facility. It is the same issue as with hydrogen powered fuel cells in passenger cars. Hydrogen powered fuel cells certainly makes sense for commercial vehicles leaving from and returning to the same facility, if the cost of hydrogen comes down.

3) There is a substantial amount of money committed to building battery factories in the US. Most automakers have already committed to building only EVs by 2030 or 2035. A large amount of money has already been spent by Tesla on their Supercharger stations and EA on their DC fast chargers. The Federal Government is throwing a lot of money at the installation of EV charging stations. The die is cast.

4) With regard to CO2 emissions, transportation accounts for about 20% of global CO2 emissions. About half of that 20% is from cars and busses.

All very good points. Sadly the electricity at gas stations is probably not sufficient to put in more than one supercharger. But, the idea is sound. Even more important I think it would be a good idea to repurpose the existing stations. Whether or not it is less expensive to repurpose to LPG (large high pressure tanks) or electric (large high current service) is beyond my pay grade.

I personally hope before we invent too heavily into local charging stations (long distance I think will be needed under most possible futures) that we consider the retirement of personal vehicles. I know a LOT of people will be turned off by the idea, but shared vehicle pools would have a massive impact on pollution since far few vehicles would be needed. It would save on rare earth materials. It would massively reduce congestion on roads. And on and on.

But, it would require someone to get the ball rolling - that is big bucks. Tesla has indicated they are considering the idea.

[JMintzer]

I think the point of electric today is what is most of the driving you do - do you drive 500 miles every day? Week? Month? What is your average trip? Doing a little looking the number varies - the average daily driving in the US is 35 miles per day.

Motor Trend did an excellent article comparing (even to the point of establishing average flow rate for the gas pumps vs charger rates for EVs) ICE vs EV and one section covers time to drive 1,000 miles.

To summarize:

ICE would take around 14.7 hours (16.5 for a BMW i3 because of its small tank requiring 12 stops.)

EV average over 52 available models is 15.3 hours for EV. The Mini Cooper SE taking 23.5 hours because of its very low top speed. .

Who the hell needs to make 12 stops on a 1000 mile trip???

My wife and I drive from DC to TV in her Acura MDX, which is hardly a gas sipper (just over 850 miles) in one day and we make 3-4 stops...

We get just over 300 miles/tank. We leave with a full tank, fill up twice along the was (timing gas stops with BR and food breaks, plus one or two others, just in case) and arrive with about 1/4 tank...

[JMintzer]

All very good points. Sadly the electricity at gas stations is probably not sufficient to put in more than one supercharger. But, the idea is sound. Even more important I think it would be a good idea to repurpose the existing stations. Whether or not it is less expensive to repurpose to LPG (large high pressure tanks) or electric (large high current service) is beyond my pay grade.

I personally hope before we invent too heavily into local charging stations (long distance I think will be needed under most possible futures) that we consider the retirement of personal vehicles. I know a LOT of people will be turned off by the idea, but shared vehicle pools would have a massive impact on pollution since far few vehicles would be needed. It would save on rare earth materials. It would massively reduce congestion on roads. And on and on.

But, it would require someone to get the ball rolling - that is big bucks. Tesla has indicated they are considering the idea.

If people have those cars "sitting 90% of the time", how is ride sharing going to have a "massive impact on pollution"?

[Byte1]

Okay, I will bite, where are you going (200 to 250 mile range) if the power is out? Gas stations can't pump or charge you, grocery stores can't run the cash registers, banks are definitely not going to be open, etc.

So, let's accept that the situation occurs and both the EV and an ICE are full. The EV (current) has a 200 to 300 mile capacity, the ICE has a 400 mile capacity.

If you are going up north, are we assuming there is NO power for 200 miles north of here? That would be a pretty serious catastrophe.

52 weeks of 200 miles of driving comes out to 10K per year. That is more than I drive now without a power outage. My point here being I except 200 to 400 miles range is more than most people will need for a week without power.

Also, GM has already announced a 400 mile range (I think for next year). Others are doing the same.

MOST of the arguments I hear/read are saying why EVs won't work now. And I completely agree, if tomorrow we all woke up and found an EV had magically replaced our ICE vehicles, we would be in a world of hurts with circuit breakers popping on all the transmission grids. But that is not going to happen. It is not physically possible to replace 300 million ICE vehicles in even a decade. Even in 3 decades would be a push, that is 10 million cars a year for 30 years. We currently sell about 17 million cars and trucks per year. Converting all those factories to EV is going to take time, so some percentage of that 17 million will become EVs, but certainly not all any time soon. So, we have at least 30 years, probably more, to transition. Meaning improve infrastructure, improve battery technology, convert factories, etc, etc, etc. A lot of work.

Also, I really liked a comment by Jay Leno recently. He expects people to keep their ICE vehicles around for a long time - for those limited cases where the EV is just not appropriate. But the benefits of driving an EV all the other times (two miles to Publix from my house) far out weigh the negatives. So, he expects most people will have one of each for a while until we can transition.

I'm sure that all those blue collar working stiffs can afford one of each. Right......... Sorry, but EVs are not practical for those that are low to middle class with families to feed. Our air quality is much better now than when I was a kid......'50s. If you want to get serious about the pollution situation and transportation, then go with hydrogen cells. Hydrogen doesn't pollute unless you consider water as a pollutant. Probably the reason big business does not wish to invest in hydrogen is that producing hydrogen is cheap in comparison to other power sources. But, if one wishes to finance China and other countries by purchasing EV products, then go for it. I'm sure I won't be around to see the chaos created by those after us. Until then, how about we become fuel independent again like we were a couple years ago?
NO, I have no intention of purchasing an EV. I just purchased a 2022 fossil fuel burner and couldn't afford the luxury of bragging rights to having an EV even if I wanted one.

[tuccillo]

It isn't clear to me that is actually a problem. Power to a facility can be upgraded. Perhaps not all. I suspect we will see a gradual introduction of EV charging stations to existing gas stations. One of the advantage of existing gas stations is the convenience store and bathroom infrastructure is already in place.

All very good points. Sadly the electricity at gas stations is probably not sufficient to put in more than one supercharger. But, the idea is sound. Even more important I think it would be a good idea to repurpose the existing stations. Whether or not it is less expensive to repurpose to LPG (large high pressure tanks) or electric (large high current service) is beyond my pay grade.

I personally hope before we invent too heavily into local charging stations (long distance I think will be needed under most possible futures) that we consider the retirement of personal vehicles. I know a LOT of people will be turned off by the idea, but shared vehicle pools would have a massive impact on pollution since far few vehicles would be needed. It would save on rare earth materials. It would massively reduce congestion on roads. And on and on.

But, it would require someone to get the ball rolling - that is big bucks. Tesla has indicated they are considering the idea.

[CoachKandSportsguy]

Just a moment... (https://www.autoevolution.com/news/tesla-seems-to-consistently-believe-its-customers-are-gullible-as-fish-199888.html)

LOL!

[Caymus]

Just a moment... (https://www.autoevolution.com/news/tesla-seems-to-consistently-believe-its-customers-are-gullible-as-fish-199888.html)

LOL!

Well, they do sell a lot in California.:smiley:

[Stu from NYC]

We do have a few rather smart friends who love their Teslas

[MartinSE]

I'm sure that all those blue collar working stiffs can afford one of each. Right......... Sorry, but EVs are not practical for those that are low to middle class with families to feed. Our air quality is much better now than when I was a kid......'50s. If you want to get serious about the pollution situation and transportation, then go with hydrogen cells. Hydrogen doesn't pollute unless you consider water as a pollutant. Probably the reason big business does not wish to invest in hydrogen is that producing hydrogen is cheap in comparison to other power sources. But, if one wishes to finance China and other countries by purchasing EV products, then go for it. I'm sure I won't be around to see the chaos created by those after us. Until then, how about we become fuel independent again like we were a couple years ago?
NO, I have no intention of purchasing an EV. I just purchased a 2022 fossil fuel burner and couldn't afford the luxury of bragging rights to having an EV even if I wanted one.

So Blue Collar working stiffs ca afford to take 1000 mile trips every weekend.

EV are MORE practical to working stiffs since they have a lower cost of ownership. And the BLUE COLLAR working stiffs can't afford to miss work in order to buy medicine for their kids when the price of gas hits $6/gal. Blue collar working stiffs drive mostly all most exclusively back and forth to work and to local shopping.

So, I disagree with your premise from the beginning.

And if you can't afford an EV, then by all means don't buy one. I would never suggest someone buy something they don't want.

And I expect you have a phone, a car, and a TV - all of which your purchase financed China and other countries. We live in a WORLD market, and hit is not going to go away because of "buy America" bumper stickers. Americans are NOT going to give up going to Walmart. Get used to it. So, pretty lame argument there - I guess the point is, if you want it, then it I okay, and if you don't want it, then it is bad.

[CoachKandSportsguy]

EV are MORE practical to working stiffs since they have a lower cost of ownership.

LOL! um, negative ghostrider!

Including amortizing the cost of the car, higher insurance, maintenance,
and the cost of electricity in your home bill. . .

I don't think so. . .
Electric Vehicles vs. Gas Cars: Total Cost of Car Ownership | Money (https://money.com/electric-car-vs-gas-car-costs-biden/)

Overall, AAA estimates you'll spend $9,119 annually owning an electric vehicle that you drive for 15,000 miles in a given year. That figure includes costs related to power (electricity) and maintenance, as well as financing, registration, fees, insurance and depreciation, and it's based on fairly inexpensive EVs

while a small SUV would cost you $8,362, , think Subaru Outback or equivalent, which is most comparable to the size and capacity of the EV.

finance guy

[MartinSE]

It isn't clear to me that is actually a problem. Power to a facility can be upgraded. Perhaps not all. I suspect we will see a gradual introduction of EV charging stations to existing gas stations. One of the advantage of existing gas stations is the convenience store and bathroom infrastructure is already in place.

Possible, I don't know.

[MartinSE]

LOL! um, negative ghostrider!

Including amortizing the cost of the car, higher insurance, maintenance,
and the cost of electricity in your home bill. . .

I don't think so. . .
Electric Vehicles vs. Gas Cars: Total Cost of Car Ownership | Money (https://money.com/electric-car-vs-gas-car-costs-biden/)

Overall, AAA estimates you'll spend $9,119 annually owning an electric vehicle that you drive for 15,000 miles in a given year. That figure includes costs related to power (electricity) and maintenance, as well as financing, registration, fees, insurance and depreciation, and it's based on fairly inexpensive EVs

while a small SUV would cost you $8,362, , think Subaru Outback or equivalent, which is most comparable to the size and capacity of the EV.

finance guy

Funny, that contradicts EVER Tesla owner I have heard of read. And that article is over a year old. Things change

Try this:

https://nickelinstitute.org/media/8d993d0fd3dfd5b/tco-north-american-automotive-final.pdf

And this:

The Government Confirms Obvious: Electric Cars Cheaper to Maintain Than Internal Combustion Vehicles (https://www.motortrend.com/news/government-ev-ice-maintenance-cost-comparison/)

In fact MotorTrend has had numerous articles pointing out the difference and EV always wins.

[CoachKandSportsguy]

Funny, that contradicts EVER Tesla owner I have heard of read. And that article is over a year old. Things change

Try this:

https://nickelinstitute.org/media/8d993d0fd3dfd5b/tco-north-american-automotive-final.pdf

And this:

The Government Confirms Obvious: Electric Cars Cheaper to Maintain Than Internal Combustion Vehicles (https://www.motortrend.com/news/government-ev-ice-maintenance-cost-comparison/)

In fact MotorTrend has had numerous articles pointing out the difference and EV always wins.

Dude,

you don't understand finance. The first article has a plug, the plug is called "trade in value", in valuing a company, its called the terminal value, such that the future value inputs is indeterminate, and the future is so uncertain that all values are unknowable, so there is a plug value.

The Nickel institute TCO is missing the cost of insurance, but throws in a lot of other details to convince the reader of thoroughness, as well as missing the cost of battery replacement for the longer period of ownership.

Finally, adding the cost to no longer own it to the cost to own it, is very misleading, which is how they can get to the answer they want. Kind of like crashing the car when done to get the insurance cost of recovery. . . and picking the model comparisons has a lot to do with the outcome as well.

Likewise, the resale value of certain EVs are now plummeting because of the difficulty and cost of replacing the battery, and the more the battery is integrated into the chassis, the less resale value.
Costs of Electric Car Battery Replacement & Other EV Facts (https://www.recurrentauto.com/research/costs-ev-battery-replacement)
Current Automotive posted the 2020 receipt of one customer’s replacement of a remanufactured 75kWh battery in a Tesla Model 3:

Battery: $13,500
Labor $2,299.27
Total: $15,799.27

The Replacement Battery Costs for These Six Normal EVs Is Staggeringly High (https://www.thedrive.com/guides-and-gear/these-replacement-battery-costs-for-these-six-normal-evs-is-staggeringly-high)


Finally, did you see the excel model? or just believing the article? As a professional excel modeler from before it was called Excel, MS Multiplan, started on a Mac in 1982, I don't trust very many spreadsheet models. . . I have seen very, very few good ones.

As far as a government article, i don't believe much of any government analysis, as they always have an electorial bias.

So yeah, my point still stands. Ask your friends who focus only on costs they want to acknowledge to feel good, how much of their cost of ownership they add up is based upon the future resale value they don't have. Reality does get in the way of estimates. . .

[MartinSE]

Dude,

you don't understand finance. The first article has a plug, the plug is called "trade in value", in valuing a company, its called the terminal value, such that the future value inputs is indeterminate, and the future is so uncertain that all values are unknowable, so there is a plug value.

The Nickel institute TCO is missing the cost of insurance, but throws in a lot of other details to convince the reader of thoroughness, as well as missing the cost of battery replacement for the longer period of ownership.

Finally, adding the cost to no longer own it to the cost to own it, is very misleading, which is how they can get to the answer they want. Kind of like crashing the car when done to get the insurance cost of recovery. . . and picking the model comparisons has a lot to do with the outcome as well.

Likewise, the resale value of certain EVs are now plummeting because of the difficulty and cost of replacing the battery, and the more the battery is integrated into the chassis, the less resale value.
Costs of Electric Car Battery Replacement & Other EV Facts (https://www.recurrentauto.com/research/costs-ev-battery-replacement)
Current Automotive posted the 2020 receipt of one customer’s replacement of a remanufactured 75kWh battery in a Tesla Model 3:

Battery: $13,500
Labor $2,299.27
Total: $15,799.27

The Replacement Battery Costs for These Six Normal EVs Is Staggeringly High (https://www.thedrive.com/guides-and-gear/these-replacement-battery-costs-for-these-six-normal-evs-is-staggeringly-high)


Finally, did you see the excel model? or just believing the article? As a professional excel modeler from before it was called Excel, MS Multiplan, started on a Mac in 1982, I don't trust very many spreadsheet models. . . I have seen very, very few good ones.

As far as a government article, i don't believe much of any government analysis, as they always have an electorial bias.

So yeah, my point still stands. Ask your friends who focus only on costs they want to acknowledge to feel good, how much of their cost of ownership they add up is based upon the future resale value they don't have. Reality does get in the way of estimates. . .

So, you are basing cost to replace batteries into your TOC. And using todays cost assuming that it will remain the same for the next ten years. And then, you write of the entire cost of the batteries when they are warrantied to still have 80% of their capacity. Did you also write off the cost of replacing the engine in the ICE vehicle? Why not, in ten years it will have 150,000 to 200,000 miles - and I assume you just throw way an ICE engine when it is replaced - NOT.

You also make the assumption that the batteries will not be less expensive in 10 years, and nothing will be done in ten years to reduce the labor costs to replace the batteries, even though GM has already announced advances in those areas. But, here we are basing number ofnb a single maufactuer of batteries, and projecting that with every MFG in the world going EV NONE of those costs will go down.

Yeah, right. As almost ever argument against EVs todays costs are used, todays grid is used, todays electric generation cost are use. Because NOHTING is going to change in ten years.

I think it is sad so many people think nothing can change in 10 years. And instead of pushing to have the US be a lead in the field, they want to Hang onto the past.

I think it doesn't matter, you have made up your mind.

Actually I do understand finance, much of my career as a project manager at facilities like Palo Verde Nuclear power plant wa spent doing TOC of projects. And I have posted numerous times with complete break downs here.

Have a good life.

[Bay Kid]

Funny, that contradicts EVER Tesla owner I have heard of read. And that article is over a year old. Things change

Try this:

https://nickelinstitute.org/media/8d993d0fd3dfd5b/tco-north-american-automotive-final.pdf

And this:

The Government Confirms Obvious: Electric Cars Cheaper to Maintain Than Internal Combustion Vehicles (https://www.motortrend.com/news/government-ev-ice-maintenance-cost-comparison/)

In fact MotorTrend has had numerous articles pointing out the difference and EV always wins.

If EVs are so good why doesn't the government eliminate their large suvs for evs?

[Fltpkr]

What is your ‘66 if you don’t mind? Just a guess, and maybe I am totally wrong, but I think maybe a muscle car? Loved those cars when I was young!

[MartinSE]

If EVs are so good why doesn't the government eliminate their large suvs for evs?

Seriously? Maybe at least part are long term contracts, and another part is at the moment (last time I checked) used Teslas are selling for more than new ones - because they are back ordered as usual. So much demand they can't make the batteries fast enough to keep up.

Why did the CRTs keep selling when flat screens came out.
Why did people keep buying horses when cars came out

on and on and on.

As, always so many people that can tell us why something news is no good and will never work. Conserving the past - the future will not get better. ahem...

[Bay Kid]

Seriously? Maybe at least part are long term contracts, and another part is at the moment (last time I checked) used Teslas are selling for more than new ones - because they are back ordered as usual. So much demand they can't make the batteries fast enough to keep up.

Why did the CRTs keep selling when flat screens came out.
Why did people keep buying horses when cars came out

on and on and on.

As, always so many people that can tell us why something news is no good and will never work. Conserving the past - the future will not get better. ahem...

Okay

[Tvflguy]

Yet again, EV prices being raised even more and more. The new Ford F-150 Lightning just raised ANOTHER $5,000. All EVs have skyrocketed in price since introduction, at a much higher rate than ICE counterparts.

The mfrs know that tax breaks may soften the price a bit in buyers eyes. And of course their costs for producing EVs have increased greatly.

Guess who is paying for those state and federal tax breaks for EVs? Yep.

Not against EVs at all. But the Feds attempting to force change in a relatively short time is outrageous. Especially doing everything to raise gasoline and diesel prices to “incentivize” Buyers to go EV.

[Dotneko]

Yet again, EV prices being raised even more and more. The new Ford F-150 Lightning just raised ANOTHER $5,000. All EVs have skyrocketed in price since introduction, at a much higher rate than ICE counterparts.

The mfrs know that tax breaks may soften the price a bit in buyers eyes. And of course their costs for producing EVs have increased greatly.

Guess who is paying for those state and federal tax breaks for EVs? Yep.

Not against EVs at all. But the Feds attempting to force change in a relatively short time is outrageous. Especially doing everything to raise gasoline and diesel prices to “incentivize” Buyers to go EV.

Build it, show me the infrastructure is in place, make it affordable. Those things all need to be present for EVs to become more mainstream. They are going about this ass backwards.
I see nothing attractive to ME in electric vehicles. The tax break only helps those who might already have that amount in tax liability. I wouldnt be able to drive to Biloxi or Atlanta easily. I sure am not going to spend 60 grand on one.

[sowilts]

I am looking at a PHEV AWD Ford Maverick. Can go for a long way to play golf on battery power. Have gas when needed.

[Stu from NYC]

Road in a Tesla for the first time yesterday. What a fun and quiet car.

Was a 2022 with 9 cameras with great acceleration.

Greatly enjoyed the ride but still would not buy one.

[Byte1]

EVs are not for me. Since they are not yet ready for prime time yet, I will stick to the new car I purchased this year. My car will likely last me the rest of my life. So, why should I consider the expense of purchasing a 'lectric car? The tax break will give me absolutely nothing. The added expense to upgrade my electricity in my home would not be worth the hassle. By the time EVs are practical, I likely won't be driving, if alive at all. I have no problem with anyone that wishes to purchase one. Go for it. Great idea; novel idea. I have no intention on driving long distance, so that issue is not an issue for me. Right now, I don't trust the idea of charging LITHIUM in my garage but since I don't plan on owning an EV it's not an issue either. I would trade my battery powered golf cart for a fossil burner in a heartbeat. One of the reason I don't use it is because the batteries only get me so far, whereas a gas powered will get me five times as far on a tank of gasoline. Sure, it's an older model golf cart. I have no plan to purchase a new golf cart that costs as much as a car.
I'll stick to the fossil fuel burner, so NO I do not plan to purchase a battery powered car in the future. The air is cleaner now than when I was a kid, so I do not concern myself with pollution caused by my car. I have much more problems with pollution cause by all the pollen as a result of everyone constantly planting gardens that produce that irritant.

[Spectreron]

I don't understand the half cost for maintenance. The only maintenance I do on my car are oil changes, brakes, and tires. Oil changes are $40, and I assume that an electric vehicle needs tires and brakes. Also, can you get a brake job on an electric vehicle at a service station, or do you need to go to the dealer, and pay a lot more?

The only maintenance on a Tesla is tire rotation annually and a lube job every 100,000 miles. Brakes never wear out due to regenerative braking, and they are brakes...why couldn't a service station fix them?

[retiredguy123]

The only maintenance on a Tesla is tire rotation annually and a lube job every 100,000 miles. Brakes never wear out due to regenerative braking, and they are brakes...why couldn't a service station fix them?
Brakes last longer, but tires do not. I guess a service station could work on an electric vehicle but, I have asked a few, and they say that they will not. Regarding maintenance cost, here is what KBB says:

Total Cost of Owning and Maintaining a Tesla over Ten Years
Teslas will cost an average of $21,500 for maintenance and Tesla insurance. This is significantly more than the $14,700 that it would cost to maintain a standard ICE car over ten years according to KBB data (an analysis conducted by Kelly Blue Book).

[Viperguy]

Soon as they make one you can plug into a tree

[tophcfa]

Even though I don’t currently need either one, I just put in an order for a new Yamaha gas powered quiet tech and next year I’m going to get a new gas powered small SUV, either a Honda or Toyota. Fortunately, I have the garage space so both will go on mothballs until needed. Since the government is hell bent on phasing out ICE vehicles, and jamming electric down our throats, I don’t want to get caught not being able to find a new ICE vehicle (at a reasonable price) in the future. Between our current vehicles (Nissan Truck, Honda HRV, BMW 330CI, Yamaha EFI, and Club Car EFI) and the new ones in waiting, our transportation needs should be set for life.

[manaboutown]

Took delivery of a BMW X5 M50i in late September. I love it and will be driving it on road trips as I can refuel in five minutes.

[Hans53]

Lets get real on this. Where is the windmill to plug into. You charge an EV with fossil fuel generated electricity. If you want to buy one fine, but dont tell me you saving the environment.

[manaboutown]

Electric Vehicles Require Lots of Scarce Parts. Is the Supply Chain Up to It? - WSJ (https://www.wsj.com/articles/electric-vehicles-scarce-parts-supply-chain-11668206037?siteid=yhoof2)

[coralway]

Zero chance

[Bay Kid]

Took delivery of a BMW X5 M50i in late September. I love it and will be driving it on road trips as I can refuel in five minutes.

Love my new X5 M50i. Drove it 800 miles yesterday to VA. 2 quick gas stops and back on the road!

[B-flat]

Zero chance

Same here.

This climate crisis is all a scam anyway. They are trying to save the planet but in the meantime they spread Covid and since that didn't reduce the population as much as they hoped it became the vaccine aka kill shot that they are now back pedaling on. Read Robert F. Kennedy Jrs. book "The Real Anthony Fauci: Bill Gates, Big Pharma and the Global War on Democracy and Public Health."

[Fredman]

I wonder what the resale value is going to be for EV’s. The batteries do have shelf life and r very expensive to replace

[tuccillo]

It depends on the model. For example, first generation Nissan Leafs had a poorly designed battery temperature management system and consequently a short battery life and the resale values reflected that. Teslas, on the other hand, maintain their value because it is not unusual for a Tesla battery to last 300k miles. Tesla is aiming for power trains that will last 1 million miles.

I wonder what the resale value is going to be for EV’s. The batteries do have shelf life and r very expensive to replace

[Caymus]

Currently they are less reliable than ICE cars.

Access Denied (https://www.cnbc.com/2022/11/15/consumer-reports-new-technologies-make-evs-less-reliable.html)