Go to College

[retiredguy123]

When a person graduates from high school, my advice to them is to go to college and get a 4-year degree. Anyone can get a degree, even those who are not very intelligent. And with proper planning, you don't need to go deeply into debt. But recently, some people are promoting the idea to skip college and to learn a trade, like welding or plumbing. It is interesting that most of these people already have college degrees, like Mike Rowe, who is always promoting trade schools. I don't have anything against Mike Rowe, but he has a net worth of $30 million, that he didn't earn by being a welder. With a college degree, you will always have more opportunities to get a higher paying job, that does not require hard work, than someone with no degree. Just my opinion.

[Kenswing]

When a person graduates from high school, my advice to them is to go to college and get a 4-year degree. Anyone can get a degree, even those who are not very intelligent. And with proper planning, you don't need to go deeply into debt. But recently, some people are promoting the idea to skip college and to learn a trade, like welding or plumbing. It is interesting that most of these people already have college degrees, like Mike Rowe, who is always promoting trade schools. I don't have anything against Mike Rowe, but he has a net worth of $30 million, that he didn't earn by being a welder. With a college degree, you will always have more opportunities to get a higher paying job, that does not require hard work, than someone with no degree. Just my opinion.
Who is this post targeted at? 99% of the people reading this have already completed their careers. I doubt any of us are worried about our future job prospects.

[manaboutown]

When a person graduates from high school, my advice to them is to go to college and get a 4-year degree. Anyone can get a degree, even those who are not very intelligent. And with proper planning, you don't need to go deeply into debt. But recently, some people are promoting the idea to skip college and to learn a trade, like welding or plumbing. It is interesting that most of these people already have college degrees, like Mike Rowe, who is always promoting trade schools. I don't have anything against Mike Rowe, but he has a net worth of $30 million, that he didn't earn by being a welder. With a college degree, you will always have more opportunities to get a higher paying job, that does not require hard work, than someone with no degree. Just my opinion.

This is the same message I have given my teenage grandchildren.

I admonished them to major in something useful, not underwater basket weaving or the like.

Before ‘Dirty Jobs,’ Mike Rowe Was Actually A Professional Opera Singer – Country Music Nation (https://countrymusicnation.com/before-dirty-jobs-mike-rowe-was-actually-a-professional-opera-singer?a=JH&var=DirtyJobs-RELOAD&utm_campaign=dirtyjobs&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_term=author-jh-posted_by-md-reload&utm_content=blank&fbclid=IwAR2I8P8g_peX7U4ny0iH_y1sX1OHwiQDbwb5dKUeG dyaOZ0ZBMjE65yIsr0)

[oldtimes]

When a person graduates from high school, my advice to them is to go to college and get a 4-year degree. Anyone can get a degree, even those who are not very intelligent. And with proper planning, you don't need to go deeply into debt. But recently, some people are promoting the idea to skip college and to learn a trade, like welding or plumbing. It is interesting that most of these people already have college degrees, like Mike Rowe, who is always promoting trade schools. I don't have anything against Mike Rowe, but he has a net worth of $30 million, that he didn't earn by being a welder. With a college degree, you will always have more opportunities to get a higher paying job, that does not require hard work, than someone with no degree. Just my opinion.

So if everybody goes to college who is going to do the hard work?

[Stu from NYC]

Lots of jobs out there for people without college degrees that pay well. Not sure that everyone should go to college, some people not cut out to be students but have other god given abilities.

[Rainger99]

When a person graduates from high school, my advice to them is to go to college and get a 4-year degree. Anyone can get a degree, even those who are not very intelligent. And with proper planning, you don't need to go deeply into debt. But recently, some people are promoting the idea to skip college and to learn a trade, like welding or plumbing. It is interesting that most of these people already have college degrees, like Mike Rowe, who is always promoting trade schools. I don't have anything against Mike Rowe, but he has a net worth of $30 million, that he didn't earn by being a welder. With a college degree, you will always have more opportunities to get a higher paying job, that does not require hard work, than someone with no degree. Just my opinion.

I was at Buc-ee's recently and they had a help wanted sign out. For low level positions, pay started at $17 an hour (for cashier, maintenance, grocery stocker) plus great benefits (3 Weeks Paid Time Off (USE IT, CASH IT, ROLL IT), Medical - Dental - Vision, and 401K with a 100% Match up to 6%). $17 an hour is $34,000 a year.

Assistant Manager was posted at $100,000+, Car Wash Manager was posted at $125,000+, and the General Manager was posted at $150,000-$225,000+.

For the management positions, I thought that they might require a college degree but for the Assistant General Manager position, their website says college Degree from college or university or 1-2 years or more related experience and/or training; or equivalent combination of education and experience in job related field.

A lot of my work colleagues had more than $100,000 in student debt and they were not making $100,000 a year!

[Michael G.]

With a college degree, you will always have more opportunities to get a higher paying job, that does not require hard work, than someone with no degree.

Not a good idea for those that thrive on hard work first
and high paying job second.

Some advice I heard once:
"Find yourself a career that you like it so much, you would it for free".

Far fitch from the: "How much does it pay generation of 2023".

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

When a person graduates from high school, my advice to them is to go to college and get a 4-year degree. Anyone can get a degree, even those who are not very intelligent. And with proper planning, you don't need to go deeply into debt. But recently, some people are promoting the idea to skip college and to learn a trade, like welding or plumbing. It is interesting that most of these people already have college degrees, like Mike Rowe, who is always promoting trade schools. I don't have anything against Mike Rowe, but he has a net worth of $30 million, that he didn't earn by being a welder. With a college degree, you will always have more opportunities to get a higher paying job, that does not require hard work, than someone with no degree. Just my opinion.

That was great advice in the late 1970's, when colleges and universities were affordable, you could get guaranteed student loans from the government and start paying monthly a full year after you graduated, and were allowed to defer your loan if you fell on hardships.

It was great, back when your earnings with that college degree, were typically enough to cover the cost of those loans (perhaps with a year or two deferral over the course of a 10-year loan).

Here's the costs for FSU:

$23,486 is the "full tuition" which most people don't ever have to pay. That's their MSRP. The "overcharge" they impose so they can pretend you're getting a great discount if you aren't paying full price.

The most anyone actually pays is $16,126, if their household income is over $110,001 per year.

If you're living in poverty and your household is pulling in less than $30,000/year you only have to pay $4,950 per year to attend, after you get all your aid and scholarships and grant money.

But wait - if your parents are only earning $30,000 per year - where is that $4950 coming from to pay the annual expense of going to college?

Even more - if you don't live near that college, you will need to pay for an apartment, or room/board in a dorm. That's extra. Who's paying for that? If you commute, who's buying you your car and paying for the insurance and gas? Remember if you come from poverty, it's not likely your parents have ever had enough money for an extra vehicle for their kid(s).

Compare with community college - I checked North Florida College, a 2-year school. Their "price that no one actually ever pays" is $12,754/year. If you earn more than $110,001 and get all the aid available, you only pay $6,401/year. If you live in poverty with household income under $30k, your cost after aid is only $1206/year. That - you can easily save up working part time weekends during your 4 years of high school at Burger King so your parents don't have to inconvenience themselves by going without such luxuries as - food - to pay for Johnny to get an Associates degree in something.

[John Mayes]

That was great advice in the late 1970's, when colleges and universities were affordable, you could get guaranteed student loans from the government and start paying monthly a full year after you graduated, and were allowed to defer your loan if you fell on hardships.

It was great, back when your earnings with that college degree, were typically enough to cover the cost of those loans (perhaps with a year or two deferral over the course of a 10-year loan).

Here's the costs for FSU:

$23,486 is the "full tuition" which most people don't ever have to pay. That's their MSRP. The "overcharge" they impose so they can pretend you're getting a great discount if you aren't paying full price.

The most anyone actually pays is $16,126, if their household income is over $110,001 per year.

If you're living in poverty and your household is pulling in less than $30,000/year you only have to pay $4,950 per year to attend, after you get all your aid and scholarships and grant money.

But wait - if your parents are only earning $30,000 per year - where is that $4950 coming from to pay the annual expense of going to college?

Even more - if you don't live near that college, you will need to pay for an apartment, or room/board in a dorm. That's extra. Who's paying for that? If you commute, who's buying you your car and paying for the insurance and gas? Remember if you come from poverty, it's not likely your parents have ever had enough money for an extra vehicle for their kid(s).

Compare with community college - I checked North Florida College, a 2-year school. Their "price that no one actually ever pays" is $12,754/year. If you earn more than $110,001 and get all the aid available, you only pay $6,401/year. If you live in poverty with household income under $30k, your cost after aid is only $1206/year. That - you can easily save up working part time weekends during your 4 years of high school at Burger King so your parents don't have to inconvenience themselves by going without such luxuries as - food - to pay for Johnny to get an Associates degree in something.

Excellent post.

[John Mayes]

Lots of jobs out there for people without college degrees that pay well. Not sure that everyone should go to college, some people not cut out to be students but have other god given abilities.

Completely agree.

[shut the front door]

I was at Buc-ee's recently and they had a help wanted sign out. For low level positions, pay started at $17 an hour (for cashier, maintenance, grocery stocker) plus great benefits (3 Weeks Paid Time Off (USE IT, CASH IT, ROLL IT), Medical - Dental - Vision, and 401K with a 100% Match up to 6%). $17 an hour is $34,000 a year.

Assistant Manager was posted at $100,000+, Car Wash Manager was posted at $125,000+, and the General Manager was posted at $150,000-$225,000+.

For the management positions, I thought that they might require a college degree but for the Assistant General Manager position, their website says college Degree from college or university or 1-2 years or more related experience and/or training; or equivalent combination of education and experience in job related field.

A lot of my work colleagues had more than $100,000 in student debt and they were not making $100,000 a year!

Totally agree. My DIL has a Bachelors and post grad degrees, no student loan because it was all scholarship. She makes 32K per year. She took 1 year off from college to work and save money. During that year, she made 75k waiting tables at a high end restaurant.

[Stu from NYC]

Totally agree. My DIL has a Bachelors and post grad degrees, no student loan because it was all scholarship. She makes 32K per year. She took 1 year off from college to work and save money. During that year, she made 75k waiting tables at a high end restaurant.

Interesting that kids will go get a degree, run up huge college loans in an area that has no market to offer degree holders.

Would be nice if universities would point this out to them early on.

[Number 10 GI]

If a college degree is a sure route to success and fortune, why do we hear so many stories of college graduates working in labor jobs or can't find a job at all. There are stories all over the place about college educated mid-level management people being laid off. Just like the market place can be over saturated with a certain product which causes the demand and price to fall, the same can be with too many college graduates. More grads than jobs.

My nephew makes $100K+ as an auto mechanic and has no school loan debt. It is very possible that had he gone to college and chose a degree with a future he would probably be making more money, but he had no desire for further education. If a person has a skill in a trade with a demand for workers, you can make good money.

[tuccillo]

What you study matters. For example, science, engineering, and math degrees may provide better employment opportunities than many liberal arts degrees. Regarding your mechanic nephew, he likely had some additional education in order to become a mechanic or he served some sort of apprenticeship. He may have some mechanic's certifications such as ASE, which required some education.

For me, undergraduate and graduate school were "trade schools" where I went to learn the hard science that I practiced for 40 years. There was essentially no access to the information other than universities. Also, without the university degrees, I would not be hired.

If a college degree is a sure route to success and fortune, why do we hear so many stories of college graduates working in labor jobs or can't find a job at all. There are stories all over the place about college educated mid-level management people being laid off. Just like the market place can be over saturated with a certain product which causes the demand and price to fall, the same can be with too many college graduates. More grads than jobs.

My nephew makes $100K+ as an auto mechanic and has no school loan debt. It is very possible that had he gone to college and chose a degree with a future he would probably be making more money, but he had no desire for further education. If a person has a skill in a trade with a demand for workers, you can make good money.

[manaboutown]

Back when I started elementary school in 1948 the relatively small grade school I attended drew from a diverse neighborhood, not so much racially (although I did learn to cuss in Spanish from a couple classmates) but socioeconomically. In particular I remember our teacher divided our reading out loud sessions into three groups, redbirds, bluebirds and yellowbirds. It was quite apparent which group comprised the best and which the worst readers. By third grade the differences in reading skill levels astonished me. Some could barely read "Run Spot Run" whereas others read at the 8th grade level and possibly beyond. I remember at least once being lined up according to reading skill level and our teacher announcing standardized test results, something that would never happen today - shudder.

It seems to me a track system such as in Germany produces the best all around results.

"Although most Germans claim to be against elitism and favoring any social class, their entire educational system is basically a three-class system that divides students into three different tracks: (1) Gymnasium for bright students headed for college, (2) Realschule for the next step down, kids headed for average or better white-collar positions, and (3) Hauptschule for the bottom tier, generally aimed at the trades and blue-collar jobs. By the age of 10 most pupils in Germany have been put on one of these three educational tracks. But it has become easier to switch tracks, and this is now more common in Germany than it used to be."

https://www.german-way.com/history-and-culture/education/the-german-school-system/

[BrianL99]

Who is this post targeted at? 99% of the people reading this have already completed their careers. I doubt any of us are worried about our future job prospects.


Just another Troll post. Consider the source.

[badkarma318]

Starbucks locations throughout the country are overflowing with baristas who have college degrees.

Meanwhile, I know people who attended various trade schools (or apprenticed at an established company), and made $75k+ 1st year.

[rsmurano]

This original post is very outdated. I know many people that went to college and majored in social studies and all they could get is an unemployment check so they can pay their student loan. I know more people that didn’t go to a 4 year college or did a trade and make anywhere from $100k to $1M a year. I know people that install car stereos that make over $100k a year.
What’s more important than going to college is somebody that wants to work, put in the effort to keep learning on the job to get better and the ability to change with the times so your skills don’t get outdated. They don’t teach these traits in colleges.

[Two Bills]

I haven't a single educational qualification, but necessity at a young age taught me hard work keeps a table with food.
Stuck with that ethos all my working life.
My wife had the brains, I supplied the brawn.
Gave us a wonderful life and retirement.

[Santiagogirl]

My advice: develop some marketable skill that can keep you consistently employed and on an upward path over a long timeline, & don't be afraid to switch or blend career paths if something better presents. Colleges & trade schools are great, but don't overlook other options like the military or trade union apprentice programs. Remember that you will become older & that health issues or injuries are more likely to limit or end a more physically demanding job, so always have a fallback plan. Being an unskilled laborer for more than a short time is a lousy plan - it's a hard life & is getting harder in this country. Also, God willing, most young people today will live to be retired. A career that comes with a pension is not to be sneezed at.

[seecapecod]

Interesting that kids will go get a degree, run up huge college loans in an area that has no market to offer degree holders.

Would be nice if universities would point this out to them early on.

Or maybe their parents should help guide them to a career and associates degree for a viable field of study.

[spinner1001]

When a person graduates from high school, my advice to them is to go to college and get a 4-year degree. Anyone can get a degree, even those who are not very intelligent. And with proper planning, you don't need to go deeply into debt. But recently, some people are promoting the idea to skip college and to learn a trade, like welding or plumbing. It is interesting that most of these people already have college degrees, like Mike Rowe, who is always promoting trade schools. I don't have anything against Mike Rowe, but he has a net worth of $30 million, that he didn't earn by being a welder. With a college degree, you will always have more opportunities to get a higher paying job, that does not require hard work, than someone with no degree. Just my opinion.

A growing trend of people do not believe in the _value_ of a college degree that university is worth it. A recent survey shows 56% of people do not believe it is worth the cost. The skepticism is strongest in 18-34 year olds. Reasons are complicated. And things are different now compared to when we went to university decades ago; so our experience may have little relevance to what is occurring now. Regardless of your opinion, these current widespread beliefs in younger people will cause significant changes in higher education (e.g., declining enrollment and funding) and employer hiring (e.g., no college degree required) in years to come.

The plot here is derived from surveys of the Wall Street Journal and NORC at the University of Chicago.

Americans Are Losing Faith in College Education, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds - WSJ (https://www.wsj.com/articles/americans-are-losing-faith-in-college-education-wsj-norc-poll-finds-3a836ce1?st=jk9rn6tjnwofh27&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink)

[spinner1001]

That was great advice in the late 1970's, when colleges and universities were affordable, you could get guaranteed student loans from the government and start paying monthly a full year after you graduated, and were allowed to defer your loan if you fell on hardships.

It was great, back when your earnings with that college degree, were typically enough to cover the cost of those loans (perhaps with a year or two deferral over the course of a 10-year loan).

Here's the costs for FSU:

$23,486 is the "full tuition" which most people don't ever have to pay. That's their MSRP. The "overcharge" they impose so they can pretend you're getting a great discount if you aren't paying full price.

The most anyone actually pays is $16,126, if their household income is over $110,001 per year.

If you're living in poverty and your household is pulling in less than $30,000/year you only have to pay $4,950 per year to attend, after you get all your aid and scholarships and grant money.

But wait - if your parents are only earning $30,000 per year - where is that $4950 coming from to pay the annual expense of going to college?

Even more - if you don't live near that college, you will need to pay for an apartment, or room/board in a dorm. That's extra. Who's paying for that? If you commute, who's buying you your car and paying for the insurance and gas? Remember if you come from poverty, it's not likely your parents have ever had enough money for an extra vehicle for their kid(s).

Compare with community college - I checked North Florida College, a 2-year school. Their "price that no one actually ever pays" is $12,754/year. If you earn more than $110,001 and get all the aid available, you only pay $6,401/year. If you live in poverty with household income under $30k, your cost after aid is only $1206/year. That - you can easily save up working part time weekends during your 4 years of high school at Burger King so your parents don't have to inconvenience themselves by going without such luxuries as - food - to pay for Johnny to get an Associates degree in something.

And these costs do not include the opportunity cost of time.

[Remembergoldenrule]

My home state ha FREE tuition to tech schools for high school graduates. I know people who have gone and become a full range of jobs - hospital machine mechanics, MRI techs, dental hygienist, LPN, welders- all ended up making more than I did with my four year degree as a teacher and I made more than my friend the four year degree social worker. None of the tech people had deal with irate people or take work home after hours or on weekends. We need all levels of education and all types of skills. There is a lot to be said if you you enjoy your job you never have to go to work.

[banjobob]

Your comments have some merit , however in my opinion college is not the total answer. A degree does not guarantee a career you may be happy in ,more importantly is a lifelong occupation you enjoy when it is fun to go to work.

[retiredguy123]

My home state ha FREE tuition to tech schools for high school graduates. I know people who have gone and become a full range of jobs - hospital machine mechanics, MRI techs, dental hygienist, LPN, welders- all ended up making more than I did with my four year degree as a teacher and I made more than my friend the four year degree social worker. None of the tech people had deal with irate people or take work home after hours or on weekends. We need all levels of education and all types of skills. There is a lot to be said if you you enjoy your job you never have to go to work.
It's interesting that 4 of the 5 jobs you cited are in the medical field, where medical insurance drives up the cost of everything. But, in the medical field, those with a college degree make more money than the technicians.

[VickiF]

When a person graduates from high school, my advice to them is to go to college and get a 4-year degree. Anyone can get a degree, even those who are not very intelligent. And with proper planning, you don't need to go deeply into debt. But recently, some people are promoting the idea to skip college and to learn a trade, like welding or plumbing. It is interesting that most of these people already have college degrees, like Mike Rowe, who is always promoting trade schools. I don't have anything against Mike Rowe, but he has a net worth of $30 million, that he didn't earn by being a welder. With a college degree, you will always have more opportunities to get a higher paying job, that does not require hard work, than someone with no degree. Just my opinion.

Totally disagree

[srswans]

When a person graduates from high school, my advice to them is to go to college and get a 4-year degree…

I respectfully disagree. Less than half of the Americans go to college and end up with a 4-year degree. While there is nothing wrong with college, a blanket statement saying that everyone one should go is doing a disservice. My kids’ high school counselors made this mistake too.

[Wilson02852]

Next time your toilet doesn't flush call your college graduate. The education system in this country is mostly a total failure. What happened to "comprehensive " high schools? Those Phds in education sure know how to screw things up. They are not much better then the law school mill graduates.

[MandoMan]

When a person graduates from high school, my advice to them is to go to college and get a 4-year degree. Anyone can get a degree, even those who are not very intelligent. And with proper planning, you don't need to go deeply into debt. But recently, some people are promoting the idea to skip college and to learn a trade, like welding or plumbing. It is interesting that most of these people already have college degrees, like Mike Rowe, who is always promoting trade schools. I don't have anything against Mike Rowe, but he has a net worth of $30 million, that he didn't earn by being a welder. With a college degree, you will always have more opportunities to get a higher paying job, that does not require hard work, than someone with no degree. Just my opinion.

As a retired university professor, I would say that while you are close to right in saying that at some schools (including mine), [almost] anyone can get a degree, despite a lack of intelligence, people like that often get what they deserve—low level jobs suitable for their ability that may make much less money than does a good plumber or electrician. A college degree DOES NOT guarantee a good job or a high salary. Lots of college grads end up waiting tables and working on landscaping crews. One of my sons—smart, with mostly A grades—works in a warehouse. I’d say that kids who don’t know what they want to do with their lives should stay out of college until they do. And if they want to go to college just to get a diploma, ideally without learning anything, they don’t deserve to go to college.

Actually, I’d rather like to see a required military or service commitment of a couple years for both young men and women after they finish high school, as is done in Israel. When they get out, they are more likely to know what they do or don’t want to do with their lives.

Also, kids like that aren’t likely to do well in the trades, either. A lot of what people do in trades takes a lot of intelligence, analytical ability, math ability, reading ability.

[retiredguy123]

Next time your toilet doesn't flush call your college graduate. The education system in this country is mostly a total failure. What happened to "comprehensive " high schools? Those Phds in education sure know how to screw things up. They are not much better then the law school mill graduates.
I would just point out that, when most people have a toilet that won't flush, they don't call a college graduate, but they also don't call a plumber. Usually, they fix it themselves, call a handyman, or ask for advice on TOTV.

[retiredguy123]

As a retired university professor, I would say that while you are close to right in saying that at some schools (including mine), [almost] anyone can get a degree, despite a lack of intelligence, people like that often get what they deserve—low level jobs suitable for their ability that may make much less money than does a good plumber or electrician. A college degree DOES NOT guarantee a good job or a high salary. Lots of college grads end up waiting tables and working on landscaping crews. One of my sons—smart, with mostly A grades—works in a warehouse. I’d say that kids who don’t know what they want to do with their lives should stay out of college until they do. And if they want to go to college just to get a diploma, ideally without learning anything, they don’t deserve to go to college.

Actually, I’d rather like to see a required military or service commitment of a couple years for both young men and women after they finish high school, as is done in Israel. When they get out, they are more likely to know what they do or don’t want to do with their lives.

Also, kids like that aren’t likely to do well in the trades, either. A lot of what people do in trades takes a lot of intelligence, analytical ability, math ability, reading ability.
Thanks. I agree that a college degree does not guarantee that you will get a good job. My career was in the Federal Government where more than 80 percent of the work is done by less than 20 percent of the employees. I knew a lot of really dumb people who made well over $100K only because they had a college degree. I think that is also true for a lot of smaller Governments and large organizations. I don't agree that young people who don't know what they want to do with their lives should stay out of college. At least they will get a degree that may be useful at some point in the future.

[MidWestIA]

There are people that college isn't a good fit for but a trade, or sales or starting a company is a great fit. If they can afford a life style and retirement they like it's better for them.

I can't tell you how many college degrees I have run into doing a job where a degree is not needed - wasn't worth it for them

[guitarguy]

I am a retired industrial education teacher and high school principal. We had a recruiter from a tech school at our school several times a year just like the colleges. He researched the readily available federal labor statistics and would show kids how less than 2 years of post high school technical training would provide them a lifetime income greater than 75% of all college grads. He just presented facts.
His presentation was outstanding. His major in college was DRAMA. He always exclaimed he performed daily in front of high school students.

[kendi]

Back when I started elementary school in 1948 the relatively small grade school I attended drew from a diverse neighborhood, not so much racially (although I did learn to cuss in Spanish from a couple classmates) but socioeconomically. In particular I remember our teacher divided our reading out loud sessions into three groups, redbirds, bluebirds and yellowbirds. It was quite apparent which group comprised the best and which the worst readers. By third grade the differences in reading skill levels astonished me. Some could barely read "Run Spot Run" whereas others read at the 8th grade level and possibly beyond. I remember at least once being lined up according to reading skill level and our teacher announcing standardized test results, something that would never happen today - shudder.

It seems to me a track system such as in Germany produces the best all around results.

"Although most Germans claim to be against elitism and favoring any social class, their entire educational system is basically a three-class system that divides students into three different tracks: (1) Gymnasium for bright students headed for college, (2) Realschule for the next step down, kids headed for average or better white-collar positions, and (3) Hauptschule for the bottom tier, generally aimed at the trades and blue-collar jobs. By the age of 10 most pupils in Germany have been put on one of these three educational tracks. But it has become easier to switch tracks, and this is now more common in Germany than it used to be."

https://www.german-way.com/history-and-culture/education/the-german-school-system/

Very sad to label someone by their intellectual level especially at such an early age. That is grooming them into a certain way of life. There are amazingly intelligent people who don’t do well in school. And there are not so intelligent people who do well at an early age. As a child therapist I can tell you that there are many reasons why an intelligent person may not do well academically. It’s a sad state of affairs when Academics is the sole guide for defining intelligence level.

[Carla B]

My spouse was successful as a self-employed, highly skilled electrician who was able to keep needed union benefits when he left employment with a contractor. Going self-employed and working hard enabled his retirement at age 55. He took a few college classes for self-enrichment along the way but his fulfillment was enjoying doing electrical work, ranging from installing giant printing presses to ceiling fans for homeowners. Doesn't feel cheated or inferior by not having a college degree in the least.

[Regorp]

When a person graduates from high school, my advice to them is to go to college and get a 4-year degree. Anyone can get a degree, even those who are not very intelligent. And with proper planning, you don't need to go deeply into debt. But recently, some people are promoting the idea to skip college and to learn a trade, like welding or plumbing. It is interesting that most of these people already have college degrees, like Mike Rowe, who is always promoting trade schools. I don't have anything against Mike Rowe, but he has a net worth of $30 million, that he didn't earn by being a welder. With a college degree, you will always have more opportunities to get a higher paying job, that does not require hard work, than someone with no degree. Just my opinion.

My son got a 5 year degree in computer engineering, found a great job immediately, makes a lot more than I ever earned, works remotely, moved here with us, buying a new home in July. College worked well for him. Peace!!

[Heytubes]

I’ve employed people with PHD’s, Master degrees and BS degrees. More than half lacked common sense. They lasted less than a month. I, as a HS graduate (bottom of my class as I was bored with school), along with a few credit hours of college, built a small successful contracting company with many employees with with only a HS education or GED. We all made good money. Common sense is tantamount to higher education.

[MrFlorida]

You need to get a degree so you can pay the craftsman to do the work for you....( I'll bet he makes as much as you do )

[jparsoneau@aol.com]

In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with either. Depends on the person and what their goals are.
However, I have seen people go to college for years to get their degree only to not be able to get a job using their degree.
I have never seen anybody go to a trade, school and graduate trade school without going to work in the trade they went to school for.
For what it’s worth I have no college and went into the trades.

[Dgodin]

I gave my boys 3 choices. College, tech school, or the military.
They both joined the military. One used his GI bill and is a teacher. The other is still in the military but finished his degree off duty.
Tech school or military careers are just as legitimate a choice as college.

[Salty Dog]

I spent most of my working life (32 years) in the military. When I enlisted in the Coast Guard as a teenager (low draft lottery number), I had completed one semester of junior college. I retired from the Coast Guard over 20 years ago at the ripe old age of 50. I'm not rich, but live a comfortable life.

Someone currently in the Coast Guard at the rank that I retired at is making around $150k a year with at least 20% of that non-taxable. Still no college degree required.

[Karmanng]

When a person graduates from high school, my advice to them is to go to college and get a 4-year degree. Anyone can get a degree, even those who are not very intelligent. And with proper planning, you don't need to go deeply into debt. But recently, some people are promoting the idea to skip college and to learn a trade, like welding or plumbing. It is interesting that most of these people already have college degrees, like Mike Rowe, who is always promoting trade schools. I don't have anything against Mike Rowe, but he has a net worth of $30 million, that he didn't earn by being a welder. With a college degree, you will always have more opportunities to get a higher paying job, that does not require hard work, than someone with no degree. Just my opinion.

ACTUALLY i went to college did not finish community one at that. AND I have to say that I have done very well for myself and retired at age 53.......2 years ahead of my goal of 55.............college isnt for everyone and most do not follow in the degrees that they went for. its ALL about HARD work working 2 or 3 jobs if you can and if you want too.......starting EARLY with investing and NOT spending stupidly!!!!!!!!!!

[Gator_Girl]

So if everybody goes to college who is going to do the hard work?

Those who aren't able to get a college degree

[FredJacobs]

College isn't for everyone. Most people in blue collar jobs didn't get them because they couldn't find anything else Most decided to be a plumber, welder or auto mechanic because that was what they enjoyed doing or it was a family business. Should a butcher have gone to college?

Not all college degrees lead to high paying jobs. For example, the kid who expects to graduate with a Fine Arts Degree wouldn't be able to find their first job paying $35,000 - with few raises - unless they own the gallery.

Not all high school graduates are cut out for higher education. If they just squeaked by in High School, why would they find college easier?

Thomas Jefferson realized that not all students are destined for higher education and the world needed people to do the blue collar work. Jefferson proposed that everyone get a primary education - probably up to 12 years old. At that point each student would be tested to see if they would be able to handle a High School curriculum. After graduation, they would be tested to determine if they could pass college courses. This would avoid the "Peter Principal" - rising to the best of your ability and not beyond. An example of the Peter Principal - Your National Sales Manager leaves and you replace him/her with the best salesperson in the field. Now, this person knows sales but doesn't know a thing about administration, leadership, etc. - and is now stuck in a position that they are incapable of doing.

[macawlaw]

I disagree. I became a proponent of vocational education when I was a juvenile prosecutor. Many of these teenagers who I dealt with were not academic, but they had tremendous skills in other areas. Not every one is wired to learn academic material easily. Why set them up to fail?

My work as a Guardian ad Litem and attorney in children's services cases reinforced this initial impression. I have seen numerous kids not succeeding academically (and often getting in trouble) go to vocational school and fly. The difference is astounding.

I don't know about you, but I need a car mechanic, an HVAC professional, and a good plumber who I can rely on.

Those students who have the ability to go to college should. My husband is a college professor, and I have one in college in engineering and one starting medical school in the fall. Our family obviously supports academics. Even more so, we support the individual and recognize that everyone has different God-given talents.

[JMintzer]

You need to get a degree so you can pay the craftsman to do the work for you....( I'll bet he makes as much as you do )

I worked construction (building custom homes) for three summers while in HS and College...

Even though I loved the work, learned a ton and it got me into the best shape of my (young) life, I quickly realized that I didn't want to do that for the rest of my life.

It convinced ME that I wanted to go to college and then to grad school.

I can do a lot of my own "home projects". I tiled the floor and tub surround and installed all of the fixtures for the bathroom and built out a cedar closet in the basement of my first home. I can do basic carpentry, drywall and plumbing (not a big fan of electricity, but I will change out fixtures and ceiling fans), run cable, install crown and baseboard molding, paint, change out door locks, etc...

I still do the little things myself, like change out my irrigation system and install my alarm system. But at this stage of my life, I prefer to fix most things with a checkbook...

[JMintzer]

Those who aren't able to get a college degree

Able? Some of the construction workers I've known could run circles around some of the college graduates I've known...

One of my long term patients never went to college. He started a landscape business, mowing lawns. He's now a multi-millionaire...

[guitarguy]

There is a lot of academic snobbery in leadership at k-12 public schools. They have been quick to cut vo-tech programs because they are expensive to start and maintain. It’s much cheaper to buy 30 textbooks (or cheap laptops) and offer a general education class.

[jojo]

I was the state director for career-technical and adult education in Ohio. In early years, vocational education just taught the skills needed for employment. As the skills in the trades became more sophisticated with technology, the curriculum for career-technical studies had to include more advanced communication, mathematics and science. This was quite a challenge since most of our instructors came directly from business and industry. Our goal was for students to graduate with the skills needed for employment and prepared for further education in public universities or 2-year tech schools. We developed programs that are common now for our more advanced career-tech students to earn considerable community college credits. Career technical studies in high school helped many students choose a career path or as importantly decide that career was not for them .

[Remembergoldenrule]

It's interesting that 4 of the 5 jobs you cited are in the medical field, where medical insurance drives up the cost of everything. But, in the medical field, those with a college degree make more money than the technicians.

I agree with your conclusion about doctors and Rn’s making more than techs. My point was you can go to tech school and make more than some fields that require a four year degree.Doctors however can’t do their jobs without techs. Techs do not cause medical prices to go up. The greed of the people who own the medical companies and insurance companies along with government mandates cause medical prices to go up.

Also, when my kids decided to go to college one of the requirements was that they show us on various job sites what actual job and what actual pay they could get with the degree. You have to research actual requirements.
There are tons of very successful people who never attended college and have a million or two in savings and loved their job their entire working career.

Ps when I need a mechanic I don’t care if has a mechanical engineering degree and his hourly rate is probably just as high.

[jimjamuser]

So if everybody goes to college who is going to do the hard work?
Well, in the over 20-year Future, machines will be doing the hard work.

[jimjamuser]

A growing trend of people do not believe in the _value_ of a college degree that university is worth it. A recent survey shows 56% of people do not believe it is worth the cost. The skepticism is strongest in 18-34 year olds. Reasons are complicated. And things are different now compared to when we went to university decades ago; so our experience may have little relevance to what is occurring now. Regardless of your opinion, these current widespread beliefs in younger people will cause significant changes in higher education (e.g., declining enrollment and funding) and employer hiring (e.g., no college degree required) in years to come.

The plot here is derived from surveys of the Wall Street Journal and NORC at the University of Chicago.

Americans Are Losing Faith in College Education, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds - WSJ (https://www.wsj.com/articles/americans-are-losing-faith-in-college-education-wsj-norc-poll-finds-3a836ce1?st=jk9rn6tjnwofh27&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink)
In the last 10 years, college costs have ROCKETED upward. Upper-level college management saw Wall St. executives and industrial CEOs making outrageous salaries, so they wanted their piece of the pie. And college football and other coaches demanded about 20 times what they are worth.
.......the end result - college students suffer AND they know they are in a HELPLESS position. So, many are now rejecting college and saying "blue collar" is good enough for them.
........Also many are enlisting in the military.
........This is just a normal and predictable reaction of young people to the GREED of the Colleges and Universities
..........Notice how society gets slighted as the "best and brightest" are NOT becoming educated to their fullest potential. I wonder if China and Russia are cheering for the US to blunder in higher education?????

[retiredguy123]

I disagree. I became a proponent of vocational education when I was a juvenile prosecutor. Many of these teenagers who I dealt with were not academic, but they had tremendous skills in other areas. Not every one is wired to learn academic material easily. Why set them up to fail?

My work as a Guardian ad Litem and attorney in children's services cases reinforced this initial impression. I have seen numerous kids not succeeding academically (and often getting in trouble) go to vocational school and fly. The difference is astounding.

I don't know about you, but I need a car mechanic, an HVAC professional, and a good plumber who I can rely on.

Those students who have the ability to go to college should. My husband is a college professor, and I have one in college in engineering and one starting medical school in the fall. Our family obviously supports academics. Even more so, we support the individual and recognize that everyone has different God-given talents.
My point is that everyone has the ability to go to college. It is a myth that college is only for "intelligent" people. Getting a college degree is as easy as falling off a rock.

[tuccillo]

Depends on the field of study. LDT ? Probably. Math ? No. Hard sciences? No. Engineering ? No. However, persistence and hardwork will get you far if you aren't the smartest guy in the class.

My point is that everyone has the ability to go to college. It is a myth that college is only for "intelligent" people. Getting a college degree is as easy as falling off a rock.

[Bay Kid]

If you are going to college at least study something that will make you a good living and be able to pay your bills.

[JMintzer]

In the last 10 years, college costs have ROCKETED upward. Upper-level college management saw Wall St. executives and industrial CEOs making outrageous salaries, so they wanted their piece of the pie. And college football and other coaches demanded about 20 times what they are worth.
.......the end result - college students suffer AND they know they are in a HELPLESS position. So, many are now rejecting college and saying "blue collar" is good enough for them.
........Also many are enlisting in the military.
........This is just a normal and predictable reaction of young people to the GREED of the Colleges and Universities
..........Notice how society gets slighted as the "best and brightest" are NOT becoming educated to their fullest potential. I wonder if China and Russia are cheering for the US to blunder in higher education?????

College tuition has been skyrocketing much longer than the last 10 years...

College football coaches get paid "exactly" what they are worth... They get paid what the market will bear. Plus, most of them run programs that actually make money for the schools and fund the other sports programs than make nothing...

It the GOVERNMENT that caused college tuition to spiral. They keep increasing the amount of $$$ you can borrow and, by coincidence, college tuition goes up by that very same amount, year after year... Color me surprised...

Military enlistment is down. WAY down...

Oh, yeah, one more thing.... GREED! Everybody drink!

[charlieo1126@gmail.com]

Going back to my grandfather most of the men in my family and now 2 nieces have been union iron workers , starting out around $50,000 and going very fast to $100,, college is niece in fact both nieces finished jr college , but they love the thrill of being up high , , I still like the advice I read somewhere , find something you like to do and it’ll never feel like work , or something like that

[retiredguy123]

Depends on the field of study. LDT ? Probably. Math ? No. Hard sciences? No. Engineering ? No. However, persistence and hardwork will get you far if you aren't the smartest guy in the class.
That's true for most people. But, for me, getting an engineering degree was a piece of cake. It would have been more difficult to get a liberal arts degree.

[npwalters]

When a person graduates from high school, my advice to them is to go to college and get a 4-year degree. Anyone can get a degree, even those who are not very intelligent. And with proper planning, you don't need to go deeply into debt. But recently, some people are promoting the idea to skip college and to learn a trade, like welding or plumbing. It is interesting that most of these people already have college degrees, like Mike Rowe, who is always promoting trade schools. I don't have anything against Mike Rowe, but he has a net worth of $30 million, that he didn't earn by being a welder. With a college degree, you will always have more opportunities to get a higher paying job, that does not require hard work, than someone with no degree. Just my opinion.

When a person graduates from high school, my advice to them is to go to college and get a 4-year degree. Anyone can get a degree, even those who are not very intelligent.



I fear that the bolded statement is becoming truer every day. Many colleges have lowered their standards in order to be inclusive. High schools are pumping out graduates that can barely read (my wife was a HS teacher for many years). Yet a "not very intelligent" person in a position that actually needs a college degree is destined to fail.

There is a large segment of the population that can be successful in a trade. They will probably be happier too.

[retiredguy123]

When a person graduates from high school, my advice to them is to go to college and get a 4-year degree. Anyone can get a degree, even those who are not very intelligent.



I fear that the bolded statement is becoming truer every day. Many colleges have lowered their standards in order to be inclusive. High schools are pumping out graduates that can barely read (my wife was a HS teacher for many years). Yet a "not very intelligent" person in a position that actually needs a college degree is destined to fail.

There is a large segment of the population that can be successful in a trade. They will probably be happier too.
It depends on what the position is. Unfortunately, if you use your degree to get a Government job, it is almost impossible to fail. And, Government jobs just keep increasing in number. The Government handles incompetence by hiring more people.

[John Mayes]

College tuition has been skyrocketing much longer than the last 10 years...

College football coaches get paid "exactly" what they are worth... They get paid what the market will bear. Plus, most of them run programs that actually make money for the schools and fund the other sports programs than make nothing...

It the GOVERNMENT that caused college tuition to spiral. They keep increasing the amount of $$$ you can borrow and, by coincidence, college tuition goes up by that very same amount, year after year... Color me surprised...

Military enlistment is down. WAY down...

Oh, yeah, one more thing.... GREED! Everybody drink!

Totally agree. College loans have turned into a huge scam. There’s absolutely no accountability or discipline at universities to control the outrageous tuition and fee increases.

[npwalters]

It depends on what the position is. Unfortunately, if you use your degree to get a Government job, it is almost impossible to fail. And, Government jobs just keep increasing in number. The Government handles incompetence by hiring more people.

Having been a government employee for more than 15 years....it depends. We did not renew the contract for quite a few of those that were just completing their first year. After that the only real solution was to move them somewhere else. We did that too. The organization I was part of was all intelligent type A personalities.

There are places in "the government" where one only has to show up. However, your statement is far too general.

[Whitley]

When a person graduates from high school, my advice to them is to go to college and get a 4-year degree. Anyone can get a degree, even those who are not very intelligent. And with proper planning, you don't need to go deeply into debt. But recently, some people are promoting the idea to skip college and to learn a trade, like welding or plumbing. It is interesting that most of these people already have college degrees, like Mike Rowe, who is always promoting trade schools. I don't have anything against Mike Rowe, but he has a net worth of $30 million, that he didn't earn by being a welder. With a college degree, you will always have more opportunities to get a higher paying job, that does not require hard work, than someone with no degree. Just my opinion.

Problem today is the cost (government backed loans resulted in my alma mater going from 9,000 to 47,000 a year), and what is being taught. Forty years ago the non core courses offered would be business ethics, philosophy, negotiations and unions. Today it is gender studies. We were taught from grade school that the color of a persons skin or the accent they had did not matter. Today we have black graduation, gay prom, minority study hall, indigenous food hall. I agree that College was a great opportunity to sharpen your skills and knowledge while granting a few more years to mature. Today it is a way to be bombarded with socialist theory and run up a high bill.

[threeonemiles@outlook.com]

So if everybody goes to college who is going to do the hard work?
You will go into debt big time.

[unialimon]

Went in the 70's and saw it was just brain washing then. Went and got a real job and now live debt free in the Villages. As for government jobs if you are a minority you probably get one, otherwise forget it.