If you are thinking about buying an EV, read this

[JMintzer]

I seem to sense a humorous exaggeration about all of us dying from Global Warming in 2030. The last information that I read on the subject said that for the next 7 or 8 years, we will have increasing worldwide HEAT. To me, that does NOT mean the end of the human species. But, it is a CHANGE that will produce many bad situations. This year July was the HOTTEST on record. Then (if the predictions of SCIENTISTS are correct) July 2024 will be THEN the hottest on record. Meanwhile, in the oceans, reef coral may be in the process of COMPLETELY dying off. People today in many parts of the US are suffering from HEAT related physical stress and mental stress. IN 2030, if things do NOT change all of our problems will be intensified.
........The source of the problem is the internal combustion engine vehicles. So, the answer is to eliminate as many as possible. The US is currently buying EVs at a rate of 8% of car sales. Europe is at 21%. The US needs to get to about 30% EV sales. That may be enough to start producing less CO2 and return the Climate back to normal. We also have to worry about a "tipping point" which some scientists talk about. It is important that the average US person becomes motivated by this problem.

"How many people die from cold and heat each year?

It has been estimated that about 5.1 million excess deaths per year are associated with non-optimal temperatures. Of those, 4.6 million are associated with colder than optimum temperatures, and 0.5 million are associated with hotter than optimum temperatures."

[Bay Kid]

A good thing EVs don't cause any pollution from conception to death. Hahaha.

[jimjamuser]

I am just going by that article that I gave the author of. He said 13% per decade, so that would mean that Antarctica has lost about 50% of its ice mass since 1970. We have ALL seen videos of large parts of the ice mass calving off into the water. There is some logic to the large loss of sea ice - around the world sea level has increased rapidly in the last 10 years. The last year recorded was some VERY large amount. If I remember correctly it was 1/2 of an inch rise (don't hold me to that, I don't want to try to look it up again). And Antarctica melting away and losing mass is also consistent with the increased CO2 in the ocean killing coral. And the CO2 in the upper atmosphere reflecting HEAT back to Earth.
......The above scientific knowledge is HELPFUL for US citizens thinking about buying an Electric Vehicle such as a car, truck, golf car, or even bicycle vrs a vehicle with an Internal Combustion Engine. 8 % of US new car sales is Electrical. In Europe it is 21%. And in China it is 29%. So the conclusion is that the US needs to get more modern and become truly the world leader in this NEW technology.
With a SIMPLE question to Google," Is Antarctica ice decreasing?", I got to NASA (. gov) which has this information. Antarctica is melting at an average rate of about 150 BILLION tons per year. Greenland is even worse - losing about 270 BILLION tons per year, adding to sea level. NASA satellites show that the ice sheets in BOTH Greenland and Antarctica have been losing mass since 2002.

[jimjamuser]

A good thing EVs don't cause any pollution from conception to death. Hahaha.
And then there is the LOGICAL question.....Why would the manufacture and disposal of IC engine Vehicles be less polluting than that of E Vehicles? IC Vehicles have many, many more and complicated parts than EVs. (Pistons, rings, valves, cams, valve lifters all thrashing about in different directions in IC Engines.)

[Rainger99]

I seem to sense a humorous exaggeration about all of us dying from Global Warming in 2030.

As one of the leading voices on climate change said in 2019, “The world is going to end in 12 years if we don't address climate change, and your biggest issue is how are we gonna pay for it?”

Personally, I don’t think the world will end in 8 more years but some experts say it will.

But if it does, I guess I shouldn’t worry about any penalties for cashing in my IRAs early!

[golfing eagles]

As one of the leading voices on climate change said in 2019, “The world is going to end in 12 years if we don't address climate change, and your biggest issue is how are we gonna pay for it?”

Personally, I don’t think the world will end in 8 more years but some experts say it will.

But if it does, I guess I shouldn’t worry about any penalties for cashing in my IRAs early!

Any "expert" that says the world will end in 8 years is not only NOT an expert, they are an idiot. And that goes for 80 and 800 years as well. At 8,000 years, there might be a little room to debate.

[Bill14564]

Any "expert" that says the world will end in 8 years is not only NOT an expert, they are an idiot. And that goes for 80 and 800 years as well. At 8,000 years, there might be a little room to debate.

AOC was the source of that statement. Is she even as much of an expert as Al Gore? See post #19 (https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/2246540-post19.html) on the other thread.

[golfing eagles]

AOC was the source of that statement. Is she even as much of an expert as Al Gore? See post #19 (https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/2246540-post19.html) on the other thread.

She was the source of that statement? That stinks, now I have to apologize to all the idiots in the world for lumping them in with her :1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

[JMintzer]

And then there is the LOGICAL question.....Why would the manufacture and disposal of IC engine Vehicles be less polluting than that of E Vehicles? IC Vehicles have many, many more and complicated parts than EVs. (Pistons, rings, valves, cams, valve lifters all thrashing about in different directions in IC Engines.)

It's quite easy to recycle the Lead batteries, steel and cast iron of ICE engines...

Lithium batteries? Not so much...

[jimjamuser]

As one of the leading voices on climate change said in 2019, “The world is going to end in 12 years if we don't address climate change, and your biggest issue is how are we gonna pay for it?”

Personally, I don’t think the world will end in 8 more years but some experts say it will.

But if it does, I guess I shouldn’t worry about any penalties for cashing in my IRAs early!
The world won't end in 8 years, but scientists predict that it will get MUCH HOTTER. Judging by the responses here on this forum, it would seem that everyone is content to do nothing about the problem, even denying its very existence. Hotter times mean more human physical and even MENTAL problems. Worker productivity will go down. Mass migration will increase. More wars will start. Crops will be affected by the HEAT.

[jimjamuser]

Any "expert" that says the world will end in 8 years is not only NOT an expert, they are an idiot. And that goes for 80 and 800 years as well. At 8,000 years, there might be a little room to debate.
Scientists are NOT saying that the world will end in 8 years. They are predicting that MAN-MADE Global Warming is a problem that is in DESPERATE need of being worked on. Pretty likely we will know who was correct about this in about 4 years. Just hope that we have NOT, by then, gotten to any "tipping point."

[Rainger99]

Just hope that we have NOT, by then, gotten to any "tipping point."

What do you think will happen if we reach a tipping point?

World on brink of five ‘disastrous’ climate tipping points, study finds | Climate crisis | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/sep/08/world-on-brink-five-climate-tipping-points-study-finds)

[golfing eagles]

Scientists are NOT saying that the world will end in 8 years. They are predicting that MAN-MADE Global Warming is a problem that is in DESPERATE need of being worked on. Pretty likely we will know who was correct about this in about 4 years. Just hope that we have NOT, by then, gotten to any "tipping point."

Amazing that they define a 25,000 year time frame as "desperate"

[Byte1]

When I am on a vacation road trip I prefer an unhurried drive on secondary roads where I can get a good look at the scenery and make MANY stops to sightsee or have lunch or a coffee. So, provided I could find a charging station within that 200-mile area, I would be fine with a EV vrs an ICE vehicle. In another post it was mentioned that it is possible to have 120 volt charging system. That could be plugged into any small motel in a rural area. A truck-sized EV could have a gasoline generator for emergency charging.
........In 2 years there will be many more charging stations available as people begin to realize ALL the advantages of ELECTRIC vehicles. They are quieter and smoother by their inherent design. They have a lower center of gravity which aids BOTH acceleration and deceleration. They are non-polluting and thus better for the environment of the earth which is in horrible shape due to pollution. In our gasoline ICE culture, many inner cities have so much pollution that it can be smelled and seen. The advantages of EV,s just goes on and on.

You forgot to mention how cheap EV's are, and how the lower earner that commutes to work everyday can save money by owning one. Oh wait......my bad.

[Byte1]

Scientists are NOT saying that the world will end in 8 years. They are predicting that MAN-MADE Global Warming is a problem that is in DESPERATE need of being worked on. Pretty likely we will know who was correct about this in about 4 years. Just hope that we have NOT, by then, gotten to any "tipping point."

No problem. Instead of spending trillions to study how to fix the supposed emergency of "global warming" we can just drop a few atom bombs and create a nuclear winter...:boom: Problem solved!:BigApplause:

[jimjamuser]

You forgot to mention how cheap EV's are, and how the lower earner that commutes to work everyday can save money by owning one. Oh wait......my bad.
Many US cities are buying EV buses.

[bcsnave]

No problem. Instead of spending trillions to study how to fix the supposed emergency of "global warming" we can just drop a few atom bombs and create a nuclear winter...:boom: Problem solved!:BigApplause:
That's boy ...stirring the pot are ya?

[jimjamuser]

No problem. Instead of spending trillions to study how to fix the supposed emergency of "global warming" we can just drop a few atom bombs and create a nuclear winter...:boom: Problem solved!:BigApplause:
I am sorry, but I fail to see ANY humor involved in MAN-MADE GLOBAL WARMING. I tried to present facts and percentages which could be easily checked on NASA.com and other sites. I take it seriously. Others may think it is a joke, gut the fact is July 2023 was the world's hottest month on record. And August may also be. There are a lot of people all across the US sitting in hospitals with heat strokes and heat-related problems. Phoenix especially had / has a problem. Likely there have been heat-related deaths in the US. I find the WHOLE SITUATION sobering. I can't bring myself to think the situation is humorous!

[bcsnave]

Many US cities are buying EV buses.

Oh boy...here we go :popcorn:....another Solyndra...get funded by all of us through the Government Loans...take the money and file bankruptcy

[Rainger99]

I take it seriously.

You may take it seriously but if it is as serious as you say, why doesn’t the government ban all government travel and all private jet travel? We would save money and the planet!!

Private aircraft emit an estimated 7,913 lbs of CO2 per passenger, while commercial planes have an estimated 174 lbs of emissions.

If it is an existential threat, that would be a minor inconvenience. And we are only asking people to do their fair share.

When they start holding Davos and other elite conferences by zoom, we will know that they are serious.

[bcsnave]

I am sorry, but I fail to see ANY humor involved in MAN-MADE GLOBAL WARMING. I tried to present facts and percentages which could be easily checked on NASA.com and other sites. I take it seriously. Others may think it is a joke, gut the fact is July 2023 was the world's hottest month on record. And August may also be. There are a lot of people all across the US sitting in hospitals with heat strokes and heat-related problems. Phoenix especially had / has a problem. Likely there have been heat-related deaths in the US. I find the WHOLE SITUATION sobering. I can't bring myself to think the situation is humorous!
Okay,you are concerned with MAN MADE global warming, I get it.
You must be committed to stop this MAN MADE , committed people will do all they can to see their cause through, this post has a guy pictured that was on to something that could help with MAN MADE climate change. But alas, he has not been with us since June 3, 2011 but he certainly could have helped you in your quest. How committed are you?

https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/2246241-post247.html

[Pairadocs]

That figures. As a taxpayer, please thank me for subsidizing YOUR purchase of YOUR car. Just love the crap they build into the tax code.

Don't waste your breath or words, I really think the percentage of people who actually understand the reality of subsidies is quite small; electric auto, solar panels, etc. They actually think they're "free", not only to them, but from the brand, dealer, or source ! When the huge subsidies came out for street legal golf carts, remember the number of high profile wealthy people who bragged about buying multiple vehicles... one was one time presidential candidate Mike Huckabee who said in an interview what a good deal it was ! ? ?

[Pairadocs]

Even if your numbers are correct, most Americans can't afford a new car. And if fewer than 50% of Americans can afford an EV, it won't solve the problem. But, if we are all going to die in a few years unless we all drive EVs, the government should buy everyone a new EV. That is far less costly than the destruction of mankind.

If the threat is as serious as some people say, we should be doing everything to stop climate change. If we all knew that, unless we took drastic measures, we were going to die in 2030 because of climate change, I think all of us would be willing to sell our homes and cars and move into a small apartment and just use our golf carts. We would be willing to stop traveling and we would be willing to stop eating meat. When the Davos crowd gives up their private planes and embrace vegetarianism, I will know that it is serious. Until then, it is so much hot air.

Only The Rich (Or Fools) Can Afford To Buy New Cars Today (https://www.financialsamurai.com/only-the-rich-or-fools-can-afford-to-buy-new-cars-today/)

hummm, so all we need to do is watch for that Davos crowd to change their way of life hu ? Guess we have a long long long time to think about all this then...LOL ! Doubt those folks are going to be changing those jets for electric ones...LOL ! Why is it always the poor huddled masses that are required to re-use their toilet tissue....

[bcsnave]

Many US cities are buying EV buses.

I am sorry, but I fail to see ANY humor involved in MAN-MADE GLOBAL WARMING. I tried to present facts and percentages which could be easily checked on NASA.com and other sites. I take it seriously. Others may think it is a joke, gut the fact is July 2023 was the world's hottest month on record. And August may also be. There are a lot of people all across the US sitting in hospitals with heat strokes and heat-related problems. Phoenix especially had / has a problem. Likely there have been heat-related deaths in the US. I find the WHOLE SITUATION sobering. I can't bring myself to think the situation is humorous!

Oh my goodness, you are onto something here, the electric golf car fires are contributing to the overall climate warming.

[golfing eagles]

[QUOTE=jimjamuser;2247189]I am sorry, but I fail to see ANY humor involved in MAN-MADE GLOBAL WARMING. I tried to present facts and percentages which could be easily checked on NASA.com and other sites. I take it seriously. Others may think it is a joke, gut the fact is July 2023 was the world's hottest month on record. And August may also be. There are a lot of people all across the US sitting in hospitals with heat strokes and heat-related problems. Phoenix especially had / has a problem. Likely there have been heat-related deaths in the US. I find the WHOLE SITUATION sobering. I can't bring myself to think the situation is humorous![/

[Byte1]

I prefer to think that MOST US politicians are doing what's best for America regardless of "lobbyists". Call me part of naive voters......please.

:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl::mademyday:

[Byte1]

I am sorry, but I fail to see ANY humor involved in MAN-MADE GLOBAL WARMING. I tried to present facts and percentages which could be easily checked on NASA.com and other sites. I take it seriously. Others may think it is a joke, gut the fact is July 2023 was the world's hottest month on record. And August may also be. There are a lot of people all across the US sitting in hospitals with heat strokes and heat-related problems. Phoenix especially had / has a problem. Likely there have been heat-related deaths in the US. I find the WHOLE SITUATION sobering. I can't bring myself to think the situation is humorous!

What??? Not funny? C'mon, man! Personally, I find a lot of humor in "man made global warming" but I do really/REALLY get a kick out of hysterical folks that squeal like a pig when they talk about humans changing the climate. And then, you have all those that spend a great deal of money for a battery fueled auto, that are more likely just using as a symbol of being of the elite class, than of really caring about how they are contributing to heal the weather. And, lets face it, no one is going to make a fool of themselves by saying they spent a fortune for a car (that they park in their garage) and that they really don't like it. Those poor schmucks that can't afford an EV and have to work every day...
Like I said before, I think EVs are pretty cool, but I won't have one. And I won't live long enough to witness the "END" so I will only sit back and be entertained by the naive.

[bcsnave]

What??? Not funny? C'mon, man! Personally, I find a lot of humor in "man made global warming" but I do really/REALLY get a kick out of hysterical folks that squeal like a pig when they talk about humans changing the climate. And then, you have all those that spend a great deal of money for a battery fueled auto, that are more likely just using as a symbol of being of the elite class, than of really caring about how they are contributing to heal the weather. And, lets face it, no one is going to make a fool of themselves by saying they spent a fortune for a car (that they park in their garage) and that they really don't like it. Those poor schmucks that can't afford an EV and have to work every day...
Like I said before, I think EVs are pretty cool, but I won't have one. And I won't live long enough to witness the "END" so I will only sit back and be entertained by the naive.


I too like EVs but not when ....C'mon man....no joke....you, you, you know the thing...except when I am sitting by the pool with kids touching my hairy legs...or when ol' Angelo says Billy baby why ain't you taking the train.... I too will be long gone before the end....true story:beer3:

[jimjamuser]

You may take it seriously but if it is as serious as you say, why doesn’t the government ban all government travel and all private jet travel? We would save money and the planet!!

Private aircraft emit an estimated 7,913 lbs of CO2 per passenger, while commercial planes have an estimated 174 lbs of emissions.

If it is an existential threat, that would be a minor inconvenience. And we are only asking people to do their fair share.

When they start holding Davos and other elite conferences by zoom, we will know that they are serious.
Well, that might help if possible to decrease aircraft travel, but NOT likely. I hesitate to mention a little girl named Thunberg that traveled from Europe to the US by sailboat to prove a point. But, what I am suggesting is very doable - the US just has to increase its new Electric car and truck purchases from the current 8% to 30%. Since Europe is currently buying at a rate of 21%, it seems possible that the US could get up to 30% within 4 years.
......That in itself MIGHT be enough to bring down CO2 emissions enough to restore normal climate to the world. And, also, in 4 years the technology might improve to include E semi-trailer rigs and better buses. I believe that Amazon Prime has some E-trucks in their fleet today and San Francisco has some E-buses running now.

[golfing eagles]

Well, that might help if possible to decrease aircraft travel, but NOT likely. I hesitate to mention a little girl named Thunberg that traveled from Europe to the US by sailboat to prove a point. But, what I am suggesting is very doable - the US just has to increase its new Electric car and truck purchases from the current 8% to 30%. Since Europe is currently buying at a rate of 21%, it seems possible that the US could get up to 30% within 4 years.
......That in itself MIGHT be enough to bring down CO2 emissions enough to restore normal climate to the world. And, also, in 4 years the technology might improve to include E semi-trailer rigs and better buses. I believe that Amazon Prime has some E-trucks in their fleet today and San Francisco has some E-buses running now.

Here’s the problem with that post: This IS normal climate

[jimjamuser]

That’s because we’re not laughing with you, we’re laughing at you 😂😂😂
I wonder if that opinion could be more specific? I just mentioned a link to NASA.com. Is NASA to be laughed at? Are heat strokes to be ridiculed? Since Global Warming is 97% agreed on by scientists to be man-made, then why would increasing US ELECTRIC auto sales to 30% NOT be a LOGICAL solution? I find it logical, not laughable.
.......I seem to sense a DEVOLUTION back to 7th grade where arguments are won by sheer vocal volume and insults take the place of facts or true debate.

[golfing eagles]

I wonder if that opinion could be more specific? I just mentioned a link to NASA.com. Is NASA to be laughed at? Are heat strokes to be ridiculed? Since Global Warming is 97% agreed on by scientists to be man-made, then why would increasing US ELECTRIC auto sales to 30% NOT be a LOGICAL solution? I find it logical, not laughable.
.......I seem to sense a DEVOLUTION back to 7th grade where arguments are won by sheer vocal volume and insults take the place of facts or true debate.

Actually, I was shooting for a match at 2nd grade. :1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

Heat strokes?--Yeah, nobody ever had one until the invention of the internal combustion engine.

97% climatologists agree.....That's been debunked about a million times

And for the coup de grace: 4 1/2 million years of climate cycles driven by the power of the sun, Earth's orbit and axis can be negating by increasing sales of EVs to 30%????----:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl: May I repeat?----:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

[tophcfa]

That’s because we’re not laughing with you, we’re laughing at you 😂😂😂

Be careful, last time I responded to one of his posts I spent a month in the penalty box : (

[jimjamuser]

What??? Not funny? C'mon, man! Personally, I find a lot of humor in "man made global warming" but I do really/REALLY get a kick out of hysterical folks that squeal like a pig when they talk about humans changing the climate. And then, you have all those that spend a great deal of money for a battery fueled auto, that are more likely just using as a symbol of being of the elite class, than of really caring about how they are contributing to heal the weather. And, lets face it, no one is going to make a fool of themselves by saying they spent a fortune for a car (that they park in their garage) and that they really don't like it. Those poor schmucks that can't afford an EV and have to work every day...
Like I said before, I think EVs are pretty cool, but I won't have one. And I won't live long enough to witness the "END" so I will only sit back and be entertained by the naive.
One person on here said they bought a lower-priced Tesla for 38K (after credits). That would make it affordable to probably 50% of Americans. Especially if you use it only locally, you eliminate the time spent in a line for gas at Sams. And you have fewer moving parts in the engine, so you likely have more reliability and are more maintenance-free. AT least, that is theoretically possible and with each passing year, EVs will improve.

[jimjamuser]

Here’s the problem with that post: This IS normal climate
But, how can that be said, when this JULY was the world's HOTTEST in recorded history?

[golfing eagles]

But, how can that be said, when this JULY was the world's HOTTEST in recorded history?

Recorded history that began in 1979 when they changed the methodology of evaluating weather data

[jimjamuser]

Actually, I was shooting for a match at 2nd grade. :1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

Heat strokes?--Yeah, nobody ever had one until the invention of the internal combustion engine.

97% climatologists agree.....That's been debunked about a million times

And for the coup de grace: 4 1/2 million years of climate cycles driven by the power of the sun, Earth's orbit and axis can be negating by increasing sales of EVs to 30%????----:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl: May I repeat?----:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:
Sorry, that 2nd line makes no sense to me. As far as the 3rd line goes. NASA makes the 97% statement, so if you disagree with them.....I don't know......maybe write them a letter. And the little laughing icons are getting a little juvenile. I NEVER use them.
..........But, it would be nice if we could agree that WHEN (and it WILL happen) the US gets to 30% EVs, that we re-evaluate this debate about Global Warming's effect on the earth.

[bcsnave]

Recorded history that began in 1979 when they changed the methodology of evaluating weather data

Good for you....most times it is good to not take everything on these forums as gospel. As you have done it is good to get the entire perspective. As a statistician, I am aware data may be presented to show one perspective while excluding data that may challenge it.

[jimjamuser]

Be careful, last time I responded to one of his posts I spent a month in the penalty box : (
I am TRULY sorry that it happened that way.

[Fastskiguy]

I prefer to think that MOST US politicians are doing what's best for America regardless of "lobbyists". Call me part of naive voters......please.

You may take it seriously but if it is as serious as you say, why doesn’t the government ban all government travel and all private jet travel? We would save money and the planet!!

Private aircraft emit an estimated 7,913 lbs of CO2 per passenger, while commercial planes have an estimated 174 lbs of emissions.

If it is an existential threat, that would be a minor inconvenience. And we are only asking people to do their fair share.

When they start holding Davos and other elite conferences by zoom, we will know that they are serious.

Do you have a source for this? 7913 vs 174 is a big enough difference that it just might resonate with the masses. 45X more per passenger, it better be one important passenger!

Joe

[Keefelane66]

When they make an EV that will go 1,000 miles without recharging, they will have no problem selling them.
Most vehicles can't go 500 miles on a full tank

[Fastskiguy]

One person on here said they bought a lower-priced Tesla for 38K (after credits). That would make it affordable to probably 50% of Americans. Especially if you use it only locally, you eliminate the time spent in a line for gas at Sams. And you have fewer moving parts in the engine, so you likely have more reliability and are more maintenance-free. AT least, that is theoretically possible and with each passing year, EVs will improve.

You can be all in for the cheapest tesla including tax, fees, tags, charger, installation, and some doo dads like floor mats for $38K after tax credit. So, yeah, it's expensive but it's well under the average price of a new vehicle in the US. The idea that they are unaffordable is simply not true anymore.

The other thing is that the car is a great car. It's not a "great electric car", it's really nice compared to any $38,000 car. Some people buy them because they can do things ICE cars can't do. They certainly are fun to drive!

Finally, thanks to all of you curmudgeons for paying your taxes so I can get a $7500 credit in April.

Joe

[Rainger99]

Do you have a source for this? 7913 vs 174 is a big enough difference that it just might resonate with the masses. 45X more per passenger, it better be one important passenger!

Joe

This is the source. The entire report can be downloaded from this link.

Report: High Flyers 2023: How Ultra-Rich Private Jet Travel Costs the Rest of Us and Burns Up the Planet - Institute for Policy Studies (https://ips-dc.org/report-high-flyers-2023/)

It is from the IPS which is a liberal think tank founded in1963.

Institute for Policy Studies - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_for_Policy_Studies)

[golfing eagles]

This is the source. The entire report can be downloaded from this link.

Report: High Flyers 2023: How Ultra-Rich Private Jet Travel Costs the Rest of Us and Burns Up the Planet - Institute for Policy Studies (https://ips-dc.org/report-high-flyers-2023/)

It is from the IPS which is a liberal think tank founded in1963.

Institute for Policy Studies - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_for_Policy_Studies)

Isn't that an oxymoron?????:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

[bcsnave]

Isn't that an oxymoron?????:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

I agree it sure sounds like its a ***MORON