If you are thinking about buying an EV, read this

[Rainger99]

Man forced to ditch $115K Ford EV truck during family road trip to Chicago: ‘biggest scam of modern times’ (https://finance.yahoo.com/news/man-forced-ditch-115k-ford-234104336.html)

Has anyone had any experience (good or bad) with an EV in a long road trip?

I have always been concerned about recharging. The fast chargers take 15-60 minutes so, if there were two cars ahead of you, it could take 3 hours to charge!

[retiredguy123]

When they make an EV that will go 1,000 miles without recharging, they will have no problem selling them.

[Bill14564]

Not in the market for a new car yet but would like to consider an EV when it comes time. We still make long trips though. We can drive 600-900 miles in a day if we have a destination we're trying to reach. EVs are not practical for that.

An article in favor of EVs pointed out that over 90% of trips are far less than the 300 mile range. While true, the problem isn't the short trips, the problem is I regularly make long trips. Convenient, inexpensive, and environmentally friendly for the last three months doesn't help me much if I'm in the middle of Iowa and can't find a charger.

I thought about buying an EV for around here and renting a car for long trips. Would solve the range problem and would save wear and tear on my car. But then I wouldn't be using my expensive, fancy, comfortable car for the trips where I would most benefit from the comfort and convenience.

EVs have a lot of advantages but as retiredguy wrote, when they make one with a range of 1,000 miles they will start to look attractive.

[golfing eagles]

Not in the market for a new car yet but would like to consider an EV when it comes time. We still make long trips though. We can drive 600-900 miles in a day if we have a destination we're trying to reach. EVs are not practical for that.

An article in favor of EVs pointed out that over 90% of trips are far less than the 300 mile range. While true, the problem isn't the short trips, the problem is I regularly make long trips. Convenient, inexpensive, and environmentally friendly for the last three months doesn't help me much if I'm in the middle of Iowa and can't find a charger.

I thought about buying an EV for around here and renting a car for long trips. Would solve the range problem and would save wear and tear on my car. But then I wouldn't be using my expensive, fancy, comfortable car for the trips where I would most benefit from the comfort and convenience.

EVs have a lot of advantages but as retiredguy wrote, when they make one with a range of 1,000 miles they will start to look attractive.

But, but, but.......what about global warming????? Or is it only true when it doesn't inconvenience one of the believers?

[Bill14564]

But, but, but.......what about global warming????? Or is it only true when it doesn't inconvenience one of the believers?

What about it? What did I write that is inconsistent with my beliefs? For that matter, what do you think my beliefs are that you are challenging my post?

To cut back on burning fossil fuels I could do without a car or a golf cart and just bicycle or walk everywhere. The 900 mile round trip might take four weeks but I have nothing much scheduled for September. But doing without transportation is simply not feasible. Instead, I make reasonable choices to reduce my consumption of fossil fuels.

Could I do more? Most likely. Could I do less? Absolutely.

[golfing eagles]

What about it? What did I write that is inconsistent with my beliefs? For that matter, what do you think my beliefs are that you are challenging my post?

To cut back on burning fossil fuels I could do without a car or a golf cart and just bicycle or walk everywhere. The 900 mile round trip might take four weeks but I have nothing much scheduled for September. But doing without transportation is simply not feasible. Instead, I make reasonable choices to reduce my consumption of fossil fuels.

Could I do more? Most likely. Could I do less? Absolutely.

But the real question----does anyone need to do anything? An emphatic NO

[JSRusso]

My wife and I just recently purchased the Hyundai Ioniq 5. We love it! Lots of power, handles great and plenty of space for the kids and our dogs. It gets about 270 miles on a full charge, and has the ability to DC fast charge up to 80% in about 20 minutes. The vast majority of the time its used by my wife to go back and forth from work which isn’t too far about 15 miles each way. She only charges the vehicle once every week. It will take about 8 hours to go from 5% to 100% on our level two charger in the garage. As an added bonus, Hyundai includes free charging at Electrify America chargers for 2 years. We didn’t buy it to save the planet. We drove it and loved it. We got $7500 tax incentive taken directly off the MSRP and an additional $2500 discount so the Limited trim version was 48k. I’m looking forward to trading in my Toyota Camry in the next year and am certain I will go with another EV. Quiet, Fast, Comfortable, no fumes or smells, no carbon monoxide worries, and little to no maintenance required. As for road trips, I do plan to drive it to back and forth between NY, South Carolina and Florida. We are the type who get restless after 3 or 4 hours of driving and take frequent breaks. Charging the vehicle to 80% in 20 minutes while I’m grabbing a snack or using the rest room isn’t a problem.

[asianthree]

Both of our sons have been researching since day one (doctors it’s what they do) next gen electric cars. They have hybrid now.

Both drive less than 15 miles per day, but both agreed unless they can drive to TV from Louisville, KY and Greenville, SC stopping once for a charge, buying will wait. Both live in climates that work well, temp wise, also traveling the roads with severe inclines, in the foothills, May impact batteries.

For us longest drive is to Disney or Gainesville, anywhere else we fly. But we also will Wait for at least 400 mile charge.

[golfing eagles]

My wife and I just recently purchased the Hyundai Ioniq 5. ......... We got $7500 tax incentive taken directly off the MSRP and an additional $2500 discount so the Limited trim version was 48k.......

That figures. As a taxpayer, please thank me for subsidizing YOUR purchase of YOUR car. Just love the crap they build into the tax code.

[Bill14564]

But the real question----does anyone need to do anything? An emphatic NO

You have made it quite clear that is your belief. It is not shared by all.

[golfing eagles]

You have made it quite clear that is your belief. It is not shared by all.

Of course it's not shared by all, it's not even shared by a majority. It is only shared by those of us who know what they are talking about.

[melpetezrinski]

Man forced to ditch $115K Ford EV truck during family road trip to Chicago: ‘biggest scam of modern times’ (https://finance.yahoo.com/news/man-forced-ditch-115k-ford-234104336.html)

Has anyone had any experience (good or bad) with an EV in a long road trip?

I have always been concerned about recharging. The fast chargers take 15-60 minutes so, if there were two cars ahead of you, it could take 3 hours to charge!

When taking long trips, the key is NOT to fully charge the vehicle. I was forced to drive a Tesla 1100 miles down the east coast. A simple Google search of battery cycle recommendations revealed that you should drive the vehicle's batteries down to 5-10%. Only charge them up to 55-60%, which takes about 12 minutes. Yes, only 12 minutes. This will give you another 180 miles. Charging the batteries to 100% would take 70 minutes and would only give you another 90 miles. This is Tesla long range specific.

[Rainger99]

When taking long trips, the key is NOT to fully charge the vehicle. I was forced to drive a Tesla 1100 miles down the east coast. A simple Google search of battery cycle recommendations revealed that you should drive the vehicle's batteries down to 5-10%. Only charge them up to 55-60%, which takes about 12 minutes. Yes, only 12 minutes. This will give you another 180 miles. Charging the batteries to 100% would take 70 minutes and would only give you another 90 miles. This is Tesla long range specific.

Were there any cars ahead of you waiting to be charged? 12 minutes isn’t bad but if you have 2 or 3 cars ahead of you, it could be a long wait!

[melpetezrinski]

Were there any cars ahead of you waiting to be charged? 12 minutes isn’t bad but if you have 2 or 3 cars ahead of you, it could be a long wait!

I never had to wait for a spot, they were only 50-60% filled. I had just enough time to stretch my legs, go to the bathroom and maybe grab something to eat.

[retiredguy123]

I never had to wait for a spot, they were only 50-60% filled. I had just enough time to stretch my legs, go to the bathroom and maybe grab something to eat.
So, if everyone owned an EV, do you think you would still get instant access to a charging station?

[ThirdOfFive]

I wonder--do people really know how that electricity they use in their EVs is generated? It is not the squeaky-clean, totally environmentally friendly (whatever that means) power that some people seem to think.

According to EIA dot gov, the breakdown is as follows:

FOSSIL FUELS: 60.2% of the total, coal and natural gas mainly.

NUCLEAR: 18.2%

RENEWABLES: 21.5%. wind, solar, hydropower, etc., also includes biomass (wood, landfill gas) and geothermal.

All in all, not quite so clean as many of us seem to want to believe.

[Rainger99]

So, if everyone owned an EV, do you think you would still get instant access to a charging station?

Apparently, only 4% of the population owns an EV. There are about 1-2 million on the road and there are about 58,000 in Florida.

How Many Electric Vehicles Are There In The U.S.? 19+ Stats! (https://www.simplyinsurance.com/how-many-electric-vehicles-in-the-us/#t-1647955829497)

[Bill14564]

I wonder--do people really know how that electricity they use in their EVs is generated? It is not the squeaky-clean, totally environmentally friendly (whatever that means) power that some people seem to think.

According to EIA dot gov, the breakdown is as follows:

FOSSIL FUELS: 60.2% of the total, coal and natural gas mainly.

NUCLEAR: 18.2%

RENEWABLES: 21.5%. wind, solar, hydropower, etc., also includes biomass (wood, landfill gas) and geothermal.

All in all, not quite so clean as many of us seem to want to believe.

60% is better than 100% PLUS that 60% must be generated much more efficiently in order for the electric companies to charge us so little for the equivalent amount of energy. Not 100% clean, but nearly 50% cleaner?

[ThirdOfFive]

Apparently, only 4% of the population owns an EV. There are about 1-2 million on the road and there are about 58,000 in Florida.

How Many Electric Vehicles Are There In The U.S.? 19+ Stats! (https://www.simplyinsurance.com/how-many-electric-vehicles-in-the-us/#t-1647955829497)
EVs are definitely NOT one size fits all. They make a bit more sense in states like Florida, California, etc., where the weather is warm year-round, but take that charming little EV-mobile north and things get dicey fast.

"Cold temperatures do affect electric vehicles and steal some of their range. The amount of range lost depends on many factors such as the car itself, its potential range in normal weather, and whether the heat is on. According to AAA, EVs often lose 12% of their range in cold weather, but the loss leaps to 41% with the heater on full blast" (blink charging dot com).

There is a huge swath of country (most of north and northwest Minnesota, North and South Dakota, Montana, parts of other states), almoste 25% of the entire landmass of the country, that is home to only about 2% of the total population. This is also big winter country: below-zero temps are common, and with only 2% of the population living there you can imagine that there are huge chunks of real estate with roads going through them where there is literally nothing. Here in Florida you might have to go 10-15 miles to reach the nearest EV charging point. Up there, gas stations can be 50 miles or more apart and I assume that not all of them (or even most, considering the country) have EV charging stations. Up there, if your charge is running low and you have 30 miles of subzero driving ahead of you--well, it is definitely a roll of the dice.

I'll stick to internal combustion, especially in sparsely populated areas. Far more dependable and secure.

[melpetezrinski]

So, if everyone owned an EV, do you think you would still get instant access to a charging station?

Don't know but I guess that would all depend upon when "everyone owned an EV". Your hypothetical question won't happen within the next 10 years and probably will never, as newer technologies will emerge. However, I will indulge and say that even as Tesla continues to build out their supercharger network, if "everyone owned an EV" within 5 years, I think there would be quite a bottleneck at the stations.

[Indy-Guy]

Drivers of EVs in Florida are using our roads for free by not paying the highway gas tax that is charged at the gas pump to keep up our roads. Currently there are 31 states that charge a tax-fee at the time of license plate purchase to collect the fair share of EVs use of the roads. I do not know if you are traveling and use a pay to charge station to charge your EV if you pay a highway tax or not. If anyone knows please share that info.

Below is a link to how Florida may be moving towards getting EV owners to start paying their fair share.

Florida EV owners may get their own version of a gas tax | WUSF Public Media (https://wusfnews.wusf.usf.edu/politics-issues/2023-03-21/florida-ev-owners-may-get-their-own-version-of-a-gas-tax)

[retiredguy123]

That figures. As a taxpayer, please thank me for subsidizing YOUR purchase of YOUR car. Just love the crap they build into the tax code.
Are the charging stations also being subsidized by the Federal Government?

[golfing eagles]

Are the charging stations also being subsidized by the Federal Government?

Don't know, but wouldn't surprise me.

[Bill14564]

Drivers of EVs in Florida are using our roads for free by not paying the highway gas tax that is charged at the gas pump to keep up our roads. Currently there are 31 states that charge a tax-fee at the time of license plate purchase to collect the fair share of EVs use of the roads. I do not know if you are traveling and use a pay to charge station to charge your EV if you pay a highway tax or not. If anyone knows please share that info.

Below is a link to how Florida may be moving towards getting EV owners to start paying their fair share.

Florida EV owners may get their own version of a gas tax | WUSF Public Media (https://wusfnews.wusf.usf.edu/politics-issues/2023-03-21/florida-ev-owners-may-get-their-own-version-of-a-gas-tax)

"fair share" is a term used by those who want someone else to pay more.

The justification for this is a slippery slope. The proposal is to charge a fee for vehicles that use zero gallons per mile to help pay for roads. "Normal" cars pay $0.28/gallon in tax but cars that don't use gas pay nothing. The owners of those vehicles are not buying fuel and not paying the fuel tax so they are not paying their fair share.

OK, what is "fair?" If $200 is a fair amount to charge a vehicle that uses no gas then is it fair that a hybrid pays only about 1/3 of that? Maybe we should charge hybrids and other high-mpg vehicles a fee to offset their fuel conservation too. And what about the EV driver who lives in the Villages, uses their golf cart for most of their transportation, and drives less than the 13,500 mile average that was used to calculate the $200? Is it fair to them that they get charged for road usage they did not actually use?

Maybe the only "fair" thing to do would be to drop the gas tax entirely and just increase the registration fee. That should be fair.... except for the little old lady who only drives to church on Sunday. She does not use the roads the Florida average of 13,500 miles per year. There would also be a problem with drivers from other states that use the Florida roads but don't pay Florida registration tax. How would they pay their "fair share?"

[Number 10 GI]

The average price for a new electric vehicle is $66,000, and the average price for a new gas vehicle is $46,000 according to a Google search. There are a lot of people that can't afford a new gas vehicle let alone a new electric vehicle. Only well-to-do people can afford a new electric vehicle.
It is totally unconscionable that the government takes the taxes from the working poor to give to rich people when they purchase a virtue signaling electric vehicle. If you want to virtue signal, do it on your own Dime, not off the backs of low income workers.

[Bill14564]

The average price for a new electric vehicle is $66,000, and the average price for a new gas vehicle is $46,000 according to a Google search. There are a lot of people that can't afford a new gas vehicle let alone a new electric vehicle. Only well-to-do people can afford a new electric vehicle.
It is totally unconscionable that the government takes the taxes from the working poor to give to rich people when they purchase a virtue signaling electric vehicle. If you want to virtue signal, do it on your own Dime, not off the backs of low income workers.

What in the world are you talking about? What taxes are taken from the poor to give to the rich?

Thanks for the info on the prices though. On the issue of fuel tax, the $66K vehicle would pay something like $1,200 more in sales tax than the gas vehicle. At $200/year, the EV would effectively be pre-paying six years of road usage fees.

[Number 10 GI]

What in the world are you talking about? What taxes are taken from the poor to give to the rich?

Thanks for the info on the prices though. On the issue of fuel tax, the $66K vehicle would pay something like $1,200 more in sales tax than the gas vehicle. At $200/year, the EV would effectively be pre-paying six years of road usage fees.

The feds and some state governments are giving incentive money to encourage electric vehicle sales. The government only gets it's money from tax payers.

[Number 10 GI]

What in the world are you talking about? What taxes are taken from the poor to give to the rich?

Thanks for the info on the prices though. On the issue of fuel tax, the $66K vehicle would pay something like $1,200 more in sales tax than the gas vehicle. At $200/year, the EV would effectively be pre-paying six years of road usage fees.

Sales tax and gas tax are two different things. The same thing could apply to a person buying a new $20,000 Nissan Versa and one purchasing a new $500,000 Rolls Royce Phantom, but it still has nothing to do with road usage fees.

[golfing eagles]

The average price for a new electric vehicle is $66,000, and the average price for a new gas vehicle is $46,000 according to a Google search. There are a lot of people that can't afford a new gas vehicle let alone a new electric vehicle. Only well-to-do people can afford a new electric vehicle.
It is totally unconscionable that the government takes the taxes from the working poor to give to rich people when they purchase a virtue signaling electric vehicle. If you want to virtue signal, do it on your own Dime, not off the backs of low income workers.

They can’t take it out of the taxes of the 47% who don’t pay tax

[Bill14564]

The feds and some state governments are giving incentive money to encourage electric vehicle sales. The government only gets it's money from tax payers.

This credit takes absolutely nothing from anyone. This tax credit is non-refundable - you can't claim more than you actually pay. This credit can set your tax liability to $0 but does not pay you anything back. This credit doesn't take money from the poor to pay the rich, it simply says the purchaser doesn't have to pay that amount in their taxes this year.

(This is unlike other credits where money is taken from taxpayers to give refunds to those who pay $0 in taxes.... a true example of taking from the rich and giving to the poor)

[Bill14564]

Sales tax and gas tax are two different things.
Really? Who knew? :ohdear::ohdear: (though I'm not sure sales tax isn't included in the combined state tax on fuel)

The same thing could apply to a person buying a new $20,000 Nissan Versa and one purchasing a new $500,000 Rolls Royce Phantom, but it still has nothing to do with road usage fees.

Is the Phantom an EV? If not then what is the comparison? But for a RR EV (or any EV) perhaps part of the sales tax should be diverted to the road fund. At least then there would be some additional value for the additional tax.

[golfing eagles]

Really? Who knew? :ohdear::ohdear: (though I'm not sure sales tax isn't included in the combined state tax on fuel)



Is the Phantom an EV? If not then what is the comparison? But for a RR EV (or any EV) perhaps part of the sales tax should be diverted to the road fund. At least then there would be some additional value for the additional tax.

Or charge a tax included in the fee at a charging station, just as the gas tax is pay at the pump. As far as home charging goes, add a tax on the sale of the charging units or even meter them.

[Number 10 GI]

This credit takes absolutely nothing from anyone. This tax credit is non-refundable - you can't claim more than you actually pay. This credit can set your tax liability to $0 but does not pay you anything back. This credit doesn't take money from the poor to pay the rich, it simply says the purchaser doesn't have to pay that amount in their taxes this year.

(This is unlike other credits where money is taken from taxpayers to give refunds to those who pay $0 in taxes.... a true example of taking from the rich and giving to the poor)

A tax credit is still money taken from the expected income tax to be collected. It is still giving rich people government money for purchasing an electric car.
Not all low income people pay $0 in taxes. As I said, if you want to have a virtue signaling electric car, pay the full price.

[Number 10 GI]

Really? Who knew? :ohdear::ohdear: (though I'm not sure sales tax isn't included in the combined state tax on fuel)



Is the Phantom an EV? If not then what is the comparison? But for a RR EV (or any EV) perhaps part of the sales tax should be diverted to the road fund. At least then there would be some additional value for the additional tax.

It is irrelevant that the RR isn't an electric vehicle. Electric vehicles cost more than a comparable gas vehicle because of the low production numbers and added technical complexity. That has no bearing on gas tax at all. You buy expensive toys, you pay expensive prices for them. Should the owner of a TV Premier Home be given a tax break because the house costs more than a Patio Villa? That is the argument you are making because electric cars costs more.

[Number 10 GI]

They can’t take it out of the taxes of the 47% who don’t pay tax

Low income single people and childless couples don't get those tax breaks.

[Bill14564]

A tax credit is still money taken from the expected income tax to be collected. It is still giving rich people government money for purchasing an electric car.
Not all low income people pay $0 in taxes. As I said, if you want to have a virtue signaling electric car, pay the full price.

So now you want to talk about expected income! Does that mean that when I was able to retire I became a rich person and was essentially given money because my expected income decreased and my tax burden was reduced? That's a pretty odd definition.

I reject the idea that keeping something I already have can be construed as being given something. Taking less from me is not giving something back to me, it is simply taking less.

[golfing eagles]

Low income single people and childless couples don't get those tax breaks.

How could someone who is paying zero taxes get a tax break?

[Bill14564]

It is irrelevant that the RR isn't an electric vehicle. Electric vehicles cost more than a comparable gas vehicle because of the low production numbers and added technical complexity.
They say you should learn something every day... this seems to be my day!

That has no bearing on gas tax at all. You buy expensive toys, you pay expensive prices for them. Should the owner of a TV Premier Home be given a tax break because the house costs more than a Patio Villa? That is the argument you are making because electric cars costs more.

No, that is not the point I am making. If the Phantom is not electric then there is no tax credit even though it is more expensive than most EVs.

On the other hand, if the owner of the TV Premier Home installs solar panels and reduces the load on the electrical grid then yes, maybe he should be given a tax break. The extra costs he is paying provides some tangible benefit to others (reduced loading leading to extended lifetime) and perhaps that should be rewarded in some minimal way.

[Pugchief]

It doesn't take long for threads to get derailed here. :$:

I have had a Tesla model 3 at my cold, UpNorth house for 4.5 years. If you have a garage and don't drive more than 100 miles in a typical day, EVs are awesome. Near zero maintenance, electricity is cheaper than gas (especially if you charge overnight and are on an hourly pricing plan with the electric co) and they are a pleasure to drive.

You do NOT have to upgrade your panel or install a 220v line, but it makes things easier. You can plug into a regular 110v outlet....yes it takes longer, but plugged in overnight at 110v is plenty of time to put 100 miles back on the battery.

If you live in a city, don't have a garage or do a long commute, an EV is going to be extremely inconvenient. As for road trips, I have friends who have done 1500 mile trips in a Tesla. As long as you are mostly on Interstate highways, you should be fine. Or not.

In summary, a typical Villager would probably be happy with an EV unless they take lots of long road trips and do not have a second car that runs on gasoline.

[Number 10 GI]

How could someone who is paying zero taxes get a tax break?

Let me expand on my statement, low income single and childless couples don't get the tax breaks that allow them to pay no taxes. They do pay income tax.

[Bill14564]

How could someone who is paying zero taxes get a tax break?

Maybe not tax break, but tax credit.

EITC for one and I believe the Child Tax Credit was another. Can reduce your tax responsibility and also increase your refund.

Not saying either of these are necessarily bad, but unless I'm reading it wrong, in some cases they can result in refunds in excess of the amount of tax withheld during the year.

[golfing eagles]

Let me expand on my statement, low income single and childless couples don't get the tax breaks that allow them to pay no taxes. They do pay income tax.

Then they are not in the 47% that don’t pay taxes

[Bill14564]

It doesn't take long for threads to get derailed here. :$:

...

Sorry :oops::oops:

[Keefelane66]

Our Hybrid is perfectly fine on a fill-up 11.8 gal can get up to 700 actually about 650. Our annual drive to Rhode Island takes 20 gallons. IF our world were trips to Tampa and Orlando and around The Villages owning and EV would be fine.
While in The Villages usually we refuel about every 6 weeks usually around 5-6 gallons.

[Toymeister]

There are certainly choices that are not gasoline only or electric only cars.

Plug in hybrids cover the daily commute and still have a gas engine to go long distances. In my opinion this is the intelligent choice for most for the next twenty years.

[Keefelane66]

They say you should learn something every day... this seems to be my day!



No, that is not the point I am making. If the Phantom is not electric then there is no tax credit even though it is more expensive than most EVs.

On the other hand, if the owner of the TV Premier Home installs solar panels and reduces the load on the electrical grid then yes, maybe he should be given a tax break. The extra costs he is paying provides some tangible benefit to others (reduced loading leading to extended lifetime) and perhaps that should be rewarded in some minimal way.
Our daughter and son in law just installed solar on their home in May YES subsidies thru St of Connecticut and US Government average bill between $200 to $250 family of 4. June bill received $40 credit, July bill $1.75. Out of pocket just under $10,000.

[JMintzer]

Don't know, but wouldn't surprise me.

The correct answer is "Of course they are..."

EV chargers: States are getting billions for electric vehicle chargers : NPR (https://www.npr.org/2022/09/27/1125375419/federal-money-is-now-headed-to-states-for-building-up-fast-ev-chargers-on-highwa)

[kp11364]

Man forced to ditch $115K Ford EV truck during family road trip to Chicago: ‘biggest scam of modern times’ (https://finance.yahoo.com/news/man-forced-ditch-115k-ford-234104336.html)

Has anyone had any experience (good or bad) with an EV in a long road trip?

I have always been concerned about recharging. The fast chargers take 15-60 minutes so, if there were two cars ahead of you, it could take 3 hours to charge!

Another thing to remember about an EV is that the current spate of batteries have a life of about 5-6 years. So, in addition for paying extra to get an EV, you also have the privilege of spending $25K (that's right $25,000) to replace your battery every 5-6 years...

[mickey100]

I've read that the battery life is 10-20 years.

[Bill14564]

Another thing to remember about an EV is that the current spate of batteries have a life of about 5-6 years. So, in addition for paying extra to get an EV, you also have the privilege of spending $25K (that's right $25,000) to replace your battery every 5-6 years...

I've read that the battery life is 10-20 years.

A point made by a couple of articles: The manufacturer's warranty is typically for 8 or 10 years. The manufacturer does not want to have to replace expensive batteries so their warranty is likely to be conservative. 10+ years seems likely.

[MrChip72]

Kinda hilarious that this story is basically about a guy with an EV that had a charging malfunction that was later fixed at the dealership but the only takeaway for some people is that ALL EV's are bad regardless of manufacturer.

Imagine if every time a newer gas powered Ford broke down that it made national news.

[golfing eagles]

Kinda hilarious that this story is basically about a guy with an EV that had a charging malfunction that was later fixed at the dealership but the only takeaway for some people is that ALL EV's are bad regardless of manufacturer.

Imagine if every time a newer gas powered Ford broke down that it made national news.

No, that's expected, since ford stands for: Found On Road Dead

[patfla06]

I don’t think the EV cars are there yet. We went to a Tesla store
in International Mall in Tampa and the cars were pretty spartan.

Also don’t like hearing the occasional story of some EVs going on fire.

Not for me.

[phylt]

When taking long trips, the key is NOT to fully charge the vehicle. I was forced to drive a Tesla 1100 miles down the east coast. A simple Google search of battery cycle recommendations revealed that you should drive the vehicle's batteries down to 5-10%. Only charge them up to 55-60%, which takes about 12 minutes. Yes, only 12 minutes. This will give you another 180 miles. Charging the batteries to 100% would take 70 minutes and would only give you another 90 miles. This is Tesla long range specific.

The google search was absolutely WRONG. !00% charge is fine for Tesla battery systems. One battery they use is perfect to charge 100%. The other is fine if you travel soon after charging to 100%. 55-60% is is not true - it's FUD. We plan to get a new Tesla very soon. There are many Musk/Tesla haters out there... they easily spew FUD.

[phylt]

I don’t think the EV cars are there yet. We went to a Tesla store
in International Mall in Tampa and the cars were pretty spartan.

Also don’t like hearing the occasional story of some EVs going on fire.

Not for me.

Spartan due to the fact that Tesla cars SELL. For very solid reasons.

[phylt]

Another thing to remember about an EV is that the current spate of batteries have a life of about 5-6 years. So, in addition for paying extra to get an EV, you also have the privilege of spending $25K (that's right $25,000) to replace your battery every 5-6 years...

...everyone is an expert. so wrong. repeat the FUD.

[mtdjed]

My wife and I just recently purchased the Hyundai Ioniq 5. We love it! Lots of power, handles great and plenty of space for the kids and our dogs. It gets about 270 miles on a full charge, and has the ability to DC fast charge up to 80% in about 20 minutes. The vast majority of the time its used by my wife to go back and forth from work which isn’t too far about 15 miles each way. She only charges the vehicle once every week. It will take about 8 hours to go from 5% to 100% on our level two charger in the garage. As an added bonus, Hyundai includes free charging at Electrify America chargers for 2 years. We didn’t buy it to save the planet. We drove it and loved it. We got $7500 tax incentive taken directly off the MSRP and an additional $2500 discount so the Limited trim version was 48k. I’m looking forward to trading in my Toyota Camry in the next year and am certain I will go with another EV. Quiet, Fast, Comfortable, no fumes or smells, no carbon monoxide worries, and little to no maintenance required. As for road trips, I do plan to drive it to back and forth between NY, South Carolina and Florida. We are the type who get restless after 3 or 4 hours of driving and take frequent breaks. Charging the vehicle to 80% in 20 minutes while I’m grabbing a snack or using the rest room isn’t a problem.

If you live in The Villages the closest Electrify America site is Bushnell. So that benefit does not give you mush benefit for a car used locally.

I was looking at a VW EV with a similar 270 mile range with a full charge but you only get 80% or 216 Miles. And just like gasoline powered cars you need a reserve (ie Low fuel warning light) That usually comes on with fuel level gets down to 1.5 to 2.5 gallons. That means you should fill soon. So, you should really consider the 80% 216 miles reduced by another 15 % or 185 Miles.

How does that work on a simple weekend trip to Clearwater 105 Miles each way? Well, you will need to schedule a fuel stop. With Electrify America (Free for two years), you have 3 current choices. Bushnell, Wesley Chapel, and St Petersburg. I guess Wesley Chapel on the way would be the best option. But to take advantage of that benefit (Electrify America), you may be tempted to stop at Bushnell to top it off before you get home. With My Kona, I do not need to worry about fuel for a trip like that.

[Topspinmo]

When they make an EV that will go 1,000 miles without recharging, they will have no problem selling them.


Supposedly Toyota working on solid state EV battery that will get 750 miles on charge and only take 10 mins for recharge. I will buy one when they are affordable and can go at least 600 miles on charge.

[dhdallas]

Man forced to ditch $115K Ford EV truck during family road trip to Chicago: ‘biggest scam of modern times’ (https://finance.yahoo.com/news/man-forced-ditch-115k-ford-234104336.html)

Has anyone had any experience (good or bad) with an EV in a long road trip?

I have always been concerned about recharging. The fast chargers take 15-60 minutes so, if there were two cars ahead of you, it could take 3 hours to charge!

That guy only has himself to blame for not doing due diligence (and believing everything the salesperson told him). Does anyone ever get the gas mileage stated on the window sticker....NO! Then why would anyone believe the range estimates provided by the manufacturer? Why did he not research how much putting in a home charger would cost & would his current home electrical system support one. Currently, electric vehicles are NOT good for your only vehicle and definitely not for long trips. Their range is too short & the charging infrastructure is iffy. Electric vehicles ARE perfect as a second car, for local trips shopping or day trips, or short commutes less than 100 miles. Anyone who even casually reads any articles about EV's knows these things.

Now due to this guy's stupidity, all the anti-EV persons & media are using this extremely poor example to bash the EV industry. I don't own an EV but my next replacement for one of my two cars will be an EV. Don't be like this guy, do your own research and remember, Caveat Emptor!

[MandoMan]

Man forced to ditch $115K Ford EV truck during family road trip to Chicago: ‘biggest scam of modern times’ (https://finance.yahoo.com/news/man-forced-ditch-115k-ford-234104336.html)

Has anyone had any experience (good or bad) with an EV in a long road trip?

I have always been concerned about recharging. The fast chargers take 15-60 minutes so, if there were two cars ahead of you, it could take 3 hours to charge!

I’m going to stick with my Prius for a few more years, even though I would rarely go far enough to need to plug in somewhere. I only recently discovered that these recharging stations are charging people far more for electricity than what they pay at home. That said, the guy in the story was driving an electric Ford F-150, and sufficient battery power to run one of those at 80 mph while towing a trailer or boat requires a much bigger battery than what is found in a Tesla. He paid $56 to recharge that battery, but filling the truck with gas might have cost him closer to $100. He paid, what was it, $10,000 for private recharging stations at both his home and business, with wiring? But the average EV user here in The Villages who is seldom driving more than 20 miles a day and isn’t driving a truck can recharge in the garage with a standard outlet overnight once a week. Even a trip to the airport and back is easily recharged overnight. As for his truck being in the garage twice for six months each time for slight body work, I don’t see what that has to do with the EV aspect. But he lives in the wilds of Manitoba. It might not be easy to get parts there.

[nativetex]

My husband and I will not be buying an electric vehicle. We drive to Texas a couple of times a year and electric would not be an option.

[Ldogg21]

That guy only has himself to blame for not doing due diligence (and believing everything the salesperson told him). Does anyone ever get the gas mileage stated on the window sticker....NO! Then why would anyone believe the range estimates provided by the manufacturer? Why did he not research how much putting in a home charger would cost & would his current home electrical system support one. Currently, electric vehicles are NOT good for your only vehicle and definitely not for long trips. Their range is too short & the charging infrastructure is iffy. Electric vehicles ARE perfect as a second car, for local trips shopping or day trips, or short commutes less than 100 miles. Anyone who even casually reads any articles about EV's knows these things.

Now due to this guy's stupidity, all the anti-EV persons & media are using this extremely poor example to bash the EV industry. I don't own an EV but my next replacement for one of my two cars will be an EV. Don't be like this guy, do your own research and remember, Caveat Emptor!

Buy a golf cart as your second vehicle. You can get everywhere you need to go in the Villages on one

[JSRusso]

That figures. As a taxpayer, please thank me for subsidizing YOUR purchase of YOUR car. Just love the crap they build into the tax code.
I pay those same taxes, so your not the only one subsidizing the EV push.

[JSRusso]

If you live in The Villages the closest Electrify America site is Bushnell. So that benefit does not give you mush benefit for a car used locally.

I was looking at a VW EV with a similar 270 mile range with a full charge but you only get 80% or 216 Miles. And just like gasoline powered cars you need a reserve (ie Low fuel warning light) That usually comes on with fuel level gets down to 1.5 to 2.5 gallons. That means you should fill soon. So, you should really consider the 80% 216 miles reduced by another 15 % or 185 Miles.

How does that work on a simple weekend trip to Clearwater 105 Miles each way? Well, you will need to schedule a fuel stop. With Electrify America (Free for two years), you have 3 current choices. Bushnell, Wesley Chapel, and St Petersburg. I guess Wesley Chapel on the way would be the best option. But to take advantage of that benefit (Electrify America), you may be tempted to stop at Bushnell to top it off before you get home. With My Kona, I do not need to worry about fuel for a trip like that.
We charge at whatever EV station we happen to be closest to. It can even be a Tesla station. If we happen to be close to a EA then we would take advantage of the deal. The reality is most of our charging is done at home. At current use, my wife charges about 1 time every week or two.

[defrey12]

Of course it's not shared by all, it's not even shared by a majority. It is only shared by those of us who know what they are talking about.

By those of us who know science isn’t a belief system…

[golfing eagles]

I pay those same taxes, so your not the only one subsidizing the EV push.

So, why should I partially subsidize even $0.01 of YOUR ev???

[Topspinmo]

Our daughter and son in law just installed solar on their home in May YES subsidies thru St of Connecticut and US Government average bill between $200 to $250 family of 4. June bill received $40 credit, July bill $1.75. Out of pocket just under $10,000.

Lady in news was on hook for 60K for solar and didn’t even work yet due to several contractors involved. It takes long time to recoup money spent on solar. My concern is by time I break even it I get there the solar will be dead 💀.

[Topspinmo]

I’m going to stick with my Prius for a few more years, even though I would rarely go far enough to need to plug in somewhere. I only recently discovered that these recharging stations are charging people far more for electricity than what they pay at home. That said, the guy in the story was driving an electric Ford F-150, and sufficient battery power to run one of those at 80 mph while towing a trailer or boat requires a much bigger battery than what is found in a Tesla. He paid $56 to recharge that battery, but filling the truck with gas might have cost him closer to $100. He paid, what was it, $10,000 for private recharging stations at both his home and business, with wiring? But the average EV user here in The Villages who is seldom driving more than 20 miles a day and isn’t driving a truck can recharge in the garage with a standard outlet overnight once a week. Even a trip to the airport and back is easily recharged overnight. As for his truck being in the garage twice for six months each time for slight body work, I don’t see what that has to do with the EV aspect. But he lives in the wilds of Manitoba. It might not be easy to get parts there.


Agree, why would dealer be in hook for his crash other than parts replacement. Beings you’re lucky to get new vehicle now you can see why there would be parts shortage.

[Cpecka]

I have worked long and hard. Therefore I drive my F-250 Diesel and pull my Airstream regularly from Florida to Nevada and back. Leaving my carbon footprint in between. Locally I do drive my other car leaving my carbon behind me. Have a great day everyone you are all loved, regardless of your opinions.

[OhioBuckeye]

BINGO, you’re exactly right! I keep posting comments about EV’s & how bad it could be but apparently nobody believes a guy that worked for a auto company for 38 yrs. You’re right pay $40,000. more for a EV & look for a charging station then maybe wait 2,3 or maybe 4 hrs. to get back on the road, people don’t believe me when I comment that ALL the fast chargers that are out there along the road are fast chargers & these chargers will cut the life out of your $20,000. battery. All I can say is keep buying them people. Bet the dealers only tell the people all the Pro’s & never hear a single con!

[imalowany]

That figures. As a taxpayer, please thank me for subsidizing YOUR purchase of YOUR car. Just love the crap they build into the tax code.

Like all the Trillions we have given the oil companies over the decades to “find oil” ?

[Vermilion Villager]

That figures. As a taxpayer, please thank me for subsidizing YOUR purchase of YOUR car. Just love the crap they build into the tax code.
Thank you!!! :pepper2::wave::clap2::mornincoffee:

[Eclas]

I'm a novice about EV's and I'm curious how much it costs to recharge at a charging station?

[Bill14564]

I'm a novice about EV's and I'm curious how much it costs to recharge at a charging station?

There is a recent article in the Washington Post (https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/interactive/2023/electric-vehicle-charging-price-vs-gasoline/) that compared costs for different vehicles on different trips and in different states.

[Harold.wiser]

And...I saw an article this morning on how Ford's CEO, Jim Farley, took a three day trip out west in a Ford Lightning. Needless to say that article was all rainbows and unicorns!
Who are you gonna believe?

[Rainger99]

Most studies show that the vast majority of households have under $10,000 in savings and the average cost of EVs is about $61,000.

Even if people wanted to buy an EV, most people could not afford to buy one.

Does anyone think that the prices will come down drastically in the next 10 years?


Electric Car Prices: The Average Electric Car Cost in 2023 (https://www.findmyelectric.com/blog/electric-car-prices/)

[waterflower]

What some have attached to the rear drive axel is a generator to recharge the batteries while driving. Problem solved.

[Ksfirefighter]

Man forced to ditch $115K Ford EV truck during family road trip to Chicago: ‘biggest scam of modern times’ (https://finance.yahoo.com/news/man-forced-ditch-115k-ford-234104336.html)

Has anyone had any experience (good or bad) with an EV in a long road trip?

I have always been concerned about recharging. The fast chargers take 15-60 minutes so, if there were two cars ahead of you, it could take 3 hours to charge!

If electric cars don’t use gas, how do the much heavier electric cars pay for road tax to repair the roads?

[Vermilion Villager]

Man forced to ditch $115K Ford EV truck during family road trip to Chicago: ‘biggest scam of modern times’ (https://finance.yahoo.com/news/man-forced-ditch-115k-ford-234104336.html)

Has anyone had any experience (good or bad) with an EV in a long road trip?

I have always been concerned about recharging. The fast chargers take 15-60 minutes so, if there were two cars ahead of you, it could take 3 hours to charge!

I call BS on most of this story. The range of the truck is almost 300 miles. The owner claimed he had to install a charger at home (That makes sense) but then had to install another charger at his work. How far does the guy commute every day? Then he claimed he had to update his fuse box.… For $6000!?! I don't think it cost me $6000 to do the electrical for my whole house. The rest of the issues like him getting into a fender bender have nothing to do with EV's. The guy seem to have no problem making it all the way from Winnipeg Manitoba down to Albertville Minnesota....a distance of 426 miles. Then he lets the vehicle get down to 12 miles of charge. How much sympathy would we let a person have who is driving and lets his vehicle get down to less than 1 gallon of gas in the tank? Again I call BS on most of the story.

[Windguy]

So, if everyone owned an EV, do you think you would still get instant access to a charging station?
Of course! They will build for the need. It will be (actually is now!) like gas stations are. Sometimes you have to wait, but not often.

[Vermilion Villager]

Of course it's not shared by all, it's not even shared by a majority. It is only shared by those of us who know what they are talking about.
Mark Twain ~ "Better to remain silent & thought a fool than to open one's mouth & remove all doubt."

[ThirdOfFive]

What some have attached to the rear drive axel is a generator to recharge the batteries while driving. Problem solved.
Well, probably not "solved", but progress is being made. Regenerative braking, for example, turns the friction and resultant heat caused by engaging the brakes, into electricity (by use of an electric motor functioning as a generator) which is routed to the battery. There are also vehicles w/solar roof panels. Research is also being done into the possible use of overhead wires, wireless inductive charging where the electrical source is actually IN the highway which charges the battery as the car moves over the apparatus, etc. But from what I've read, none of these have really progressed much beyond the experimental stage.

[Wondering]

Man forced to ditch $115K Ford EV truck during family road trip to Chicago: ‘biggest scam of modern times’ (https://finance.yahoo.com/news/man-forced-ditch-115k-ford-234104336.html)

Has anyone had any experience (good or bad) with an EV in a long road trip?

I have always been concerned about recharging. The fast chargers take 15-60 minutes so, if there were two cars ahead of you, it could take 3 hours to charge!
First problem with your post is that the source is Fox Business. Not a trusted source. Why? Fox Corporate had to pay more than 3/4 of a billion for reporting false information to their viewers. Secondly, didn't the buyer of the truck do some research before he bought the truck, as to cost for every aspect of owning a EV? Obviously, not! Many EV owners are happy with their EV cars/trucks. Typical FOX NOISE reporting!

[Windguy]

Drivers of EVs in Florida are using our roads for free
Drivers of EVs in Florida are subsidizing your gasoline by paying their part of the cost to keep the oil flowing in the Middle East, which has cost us TRILLIONS of dollars not to mention many lives. The gas tax is roundoff error in comparison.

I'd bet that if you actually paid at the pump for ALL the cost of your gasoline (including military and damage to the environment and people's health), it would be more than $10/gallon. If you saw just how much you are really spending on your gas guzzler, you'd be chomping at the bit for an EV.

[Rodneysblue]

Man forced to ditch $115K Ford EV truck during family road trip to Chicago: ‘biggest scam of modern times’ (https://finance.yahoo.com/news/man-forced-ditch-115k-ford-234104336.html)

Has anyone had any experience (good or bad) with an EV in a long road trip?

I have always been concerned about recharging. The fast chargers take 15-60 minutes so, if there were two cars ahead of you, it could take 3 hours to charge!

This is why we all need to do our own research.

[JSRusso]

So, why should I partially subsidize even $0.01 of YOUR ev???
You’re not subsidizing any part of my EV vehicle. It’s no different than any other tax break we all get throughout our lives. When we file a tax return do you forgo any of the write offs or breaks your entitled to legally take due to the tax codes? You can if you like pay more than you have to, knock yourself out. But don’t criticize those that don’t. There are currently incentives that are available should you choose to purchase an EV. It’s not like the government is handing out cash to people who decide to purchase one. If your paying the premium for a new EV vehicle, there are certain vehicles that can qualify for up to $7500 in rebates towards your taxes at years end. Like it or not, the incentives are there in hopes that more EV’s on the road will help to grow investments in research and the infrastructure around the country in the years to come. The incentives are temporary and have already been reduced as of this past April. Nobody is sending you a check of taxpayers money. We all pay our taxes, and we certainly don’t all agree on how those taxes are used, but it’s not as though we all haven’t benefited from them throughout our lives in some way shape or form. Our taxes subsidize everything this country does, least of your concerns should be a tax incentive on EV’s.

[Windguy]

Another thing to remember about an EV is that the current spate of batteries have a life of about 5-6 years. So, in addition for paying extra to get an EV, you also have the privilege of spending $25K (that's right $25,000) to replace your battery every 5-6 years...
I'm going to have to call BS on that statement. You must have gotten that nonsense from your favorite propaganda station years ago. That may have been true back when the first hybrids came out and used lead-acid batteries, but it's not true for Lithium-ion batteries.

Here's the concluding paragraph from a Car and Driver article last year:

The truth is that today's EV batteries will inevitably need replacing in the future. Fortunately, modern EV battery packs should prove problem-free for nearly the first decade of use—possibly even longer. By the time today's EVs will need a replacement battery pack it's likely the manufacturing and material costs will be far less than they are today. We're not saying that replacing your EV's lithium-ion battery pack a decade from now will be cheap, but we wager doing so will be much more affordable than it is today.

How Long Do Electric Car Batteries Last? - Car and Driver (https://www.caranddriver.com/research/a31875141/electric-car-battery-life/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=arb_ga_cd_md_comm_pmx_us_urlx_1871505 4781&gclid=CjwKCAjw29ymBhAKEiwAHJbJ8jYTCICX18PBeIxpfDYc SvL3R9nrhJgbXZCcUIgB8y-CQfTEv1Qu6BoCBZgQAvD_BwE)

[JSRusso]

If electric cars don’t use gas, how do the much heavier electric cars pay for road tax to repair the roads?
Tolls, registration fees and taxes ?

[retiredguy123]

The problem with Government subsidies for EVs is that it skews the real cost comparison of EVs to gasoline vehicles. If EVs are competitive with gasoline vehicles, then take away the subsidy and let the free market determine which vehicle people will buy.

[airstreamingypsy]

Of course it's not shared by all, it's not even shared by a majority. It is only shared by those of us who know what they are talking about.

Hahahaha, no its shared by those who watch a certain TV channel. It's astounding that scientists are wrong, and college dropouts spouting propaganda are right in your world.

[Windguy]

It takes long time to recoup money spent on solar. My concern is by time I break even it I get there the solar will be dead ������.
It takes a long time for a newly planted tree to provide real shade and you likely will never get to enjoy the benefits before you die. I guess we should quit planting trees! ;-)

[Windguy]

Regenerative braking, for example, turns the friction and resultant heat caused by engaging the brakes, into electricity (by use of an electric motor functioning as a generator) which is routed to the battery.
I'm sorry, but that just is not true. Regenerative braking has nothing to do with friction and heat. And, you're not even using the brakes unless you brake really hard. All you are really doing is switching your electric motor from motor mode to generator mode.

[Vermilion Villager]

The problem with Government subsidies for EVs is that it skews the real cost comparison of EVs to gasoline vehicles. If EVs are competitive with gasoline vehicles, then take away the subsidy and let the free market determine which vehicle people will buy.
Assume you are for removing the $20 billion in subsidies the oil industry gets from the government too?
Chairman Press | Chairman's Newsroom | Chairman | U.S. Senate Committee On The Budget (https://www.budget.senate.gov/chairman/newsroom/press/sen-whitehouse-on-fossil-fuel-subsidies-we-are-subsidizing-the-danger-#:~:text=It%27s%20not%20just%20the%20US,to%20the%2 0fossil%20fuel%20industry).

[Vermilion Villager]

So, why should I partially subsidize even $0.01 of YOUR ev???
Are you saying we should do away with subsidies YOU receive? GREAT....I don't have to subsidize YOUR social security or Medicare anymore! :pepper2:

[cjrjck]

Toyota was criticized for stating the U.S. in general and definitely most other parts of the world are not ready for an all EV personal fleet. They prefer to pursue highly efficient hybrid designs. I agree with Toyota. EVs have their uses but the U.S. has a long way to go before we will be ready to convert all personal vehicles to EV. The electrical grids need massive overhauls. But that doesn't mean we can't continue the transition using hybrid technology for now.

[Blackbird45]

I've been interest in EVs / hybrids for years now, my last 4 cars were Hyundia. The first problem I had was that Hyundia did not sell their hybrids in Florida, and I was warned if I bought it out of state and needed servicing there might be no one in Florida to take care of it. I looked at the Tesla and even though many EVs have the middle panels it wasn't for me. This past year I did take a test drive in the ioniq5, and even though it was the 2022 car of the year I was disappointed. We all know the problems with EVs, Distance, Charging and Cost of the battery. Most of this will be dealt with sooner than you think. Toyota claims they will be able to mass produce solid state batteries by 2027, that would mean longer range, faster charging, longer battery life and supposedly cheaper to produce. I believe the goal will be reach before then. Not to save the earth, but simply EVs will be less expensive to manufacture once those 3 hurtles are addressed.

[DonnaNi4os]

My daughter works for and drives a Polestar. She drove from Mahwah, NJ to Cape May without needing a charge. That’s about 180 miles. When charging at the hotel’s garage there was a golf car also charging. Together it tripped a circuit breaker. From there she traveled to LBI but the battery had a “trickle charge” so it never fully charged. She charged it again at that hotel. On the drive back home, approximately 100 miles, her gauge said she would make it with 3% battery left. She decided not to chance it and stopped to charge and waited. Bottom line is that a dedicated car charger charges faster than your typical home outlet and driving cross country…would take forever. The technology is new. I suspect eventually the batteries will take you further on a charge.

[RUCdaze]

If you think your electric bill is high now, just wait! And it will only get worse over time. You'll see - hug a tree.

[HJBeck]

Not in the market for a new car yet but would like to consider an EV when it comes time. We still make long trips though. We can drive 600-900 miles in a day if we have a destination we're trying to reach. EVs are not practical for that.

An article in favor of EVs pointed out that over 90% of trips are far less than the 300 mile range. While true, the problem isn't the short trips, the problem is I regularly make long trips. Convenient, inexpensive, and environmentally friendly for the last three months doesn't help me much if I'm in the middle of Iowa and can't find a charger.

I thought about buying an EV for around here and renting a car for long trips. Would solve the range problem and would save wear and tear on my car. But then I wouldn't be using my expensive, fancy, comfortable car for the trips where I would most benefit from the comfort and convenience.

EVs have a lot of advantages but as retiredguy wrote, when they make one with a range of 1,000 miles they will start to look attractive.

EV's are not ready for vacation travel. Very rare to find a charging station that meets your particular needs. If you are using it around your local area on a daily basis, range is not an issue what so ever (provided you remember to plug it in after each us). Check into the charging station you need for your vehicle. They are not inexpensive, plus I've read articles about fast chargers requiring way to high a amperage source then any reasonable home service can provide. Fast charging can usually not be obtained at residential load centers. Keeping a long story short, plan on EV's as a local vehicle only (100-150 miles/day).

[scooterstang]

I am doing my part because I have Craftsman battery powered mower/blower but no way in hell I am getting rid of my 70 Chev shortbox fleet for any EV!

[melpetezrinski]

BINGO, you’re exactly right! I keep posting comments about EV’s & how bad it could be but apparently nobody believes a guy that worked for a auto company for 38 yrs. You’re right pay $40,000. more for a EV & look for a charging station then maybe wait 2,3 or maybe 4 hrs. to get back on the road, people don’t believe me when I comment that ALL the fast chargers that are out there along the road are fast chargers & these chargers will cut the life out of your $20,000. battery. All I can say is keep buying them people. Bet the dealers only tell the people all the Pro’s & never hear a single con!

I believe you! I charged my Tesla from 3% battery life to 61% battery life, which gave me another 180 miles. This took 13 minutes. I then took a nap for several hours and BINGO, I was back on the road in "2,3 or maybe 4 hrs". As for your other expert opinions, you very well might be correct.

[ThirdOfFive]

I'm sorry, but that just is not true. Regenerative braking has nothing to do with friction and heat. And, you're not even using the brakes unless you brake really hard. All you are really doing is switching your electric motor from motor mode to generator mode.
"Regenerative braking is unique to EVs and enables the vehicle’s kinetic energy to be converted back to electrical energy during braking (deceleration or downhill running). The converted electrical energy is stored in energy storage devices such as batteries, ultracapacitors and ultrahigh-speed flywheels to extend the driving range by up to 10%." (K. Chau, "Energy Recovery Management", Science Direct dot com).

[Keefelane66]

So, if everyone owned an EV, do you think you would still get instant access to a charging station?
Almost everyone has a petroleum powered vehicle and there are sometimes waits at the pump. EV charging islands will be as common as gas stations

[mtdjed]

So now you want to talk about expected income! Does that mean that when I was able to retire I became a rich person and was essentially given money because my expected income decreased and my tax burden was reduced? That's a pretty odd definition.

I reject the idea that keeping something I already have can be construed as being given something. Taking less from me is not giving something back to me, it is simply taking less.

And this has what relevance to the OPs topic about the negative experience he had with his EV truck?

[bcsnave]

EV not for ME...I will just wait until the Star Trek Transport comes to fruition....beam me up Scotty!

Food for thought from Toyota

Focus: Toyota looks to overhaul EV strategy as new CEO takes charge | Reuters (https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/toyota-looks-overhaul-ev-strategy-new-ceo-takes-charge-2023-04-06/)

[Topspinmo]

It takes a long time for a newly planted tree to provide real shade and you likely will never get to enjoy the benefits before you die. I guess we should quit planting trees! ;-)


I don’t plant trees I remove them.

[Topspinmo]

Like all the Trillions we have given the oil companies over the decades to “find oil” ?

Because state and federal government makes more on gallon gas than oil companies producing it. Not me saying this fact checkers are saying it) So why wouldn’t they get break?

[retiredguy123]

Assume you are for removing the $20 billion in subsidies the oil industry gets from the government too?
Chairman Press | Chairman's Newsroom | Chairman | U.S. Senate Committee On The Budget (https://www.budget.senate.gov/chairman/newsroom/press/sen-whitehouse-on-fossil-fuel-subsidies-we-are-subsidizing-the-danger-#:~:text=It%27s%20not%20just%20the%20US,to%20the%2 0fossil%20fuel%20industry).
Yes, I am.

[Keefelane66]

Free viewing on a hot afternoon “Who Killed the Electric Car” 2006 1:30

Who Killed The Electric Car : baytalinsaan : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive (https://archive.org/details/vimeo-210171457)

[bcsnave]

If you think your electric bill is high now, just wait! And it will only get worse over time. You'll see - hug a tree.

And you can burn a tree afterward and spew carbon into the air:thumbup:

[Marine1974]

But, but, but.......what about global warming????? Or is it only true when it doesn't inconvenience one of the believers?
What do you think powers the heavy equipment to mine for lithium, diesel fuel and gasoline, not electric vehicles.
Not to mention the toxic chemicals used in mining for lithium renders the land uninhabitable for hundreds if not thousands of years . If you are using a refrigerator, air conditioning, electric stove /oven , TV , lights in your house or yard on electric , where do you think your electricity comes from . You have a large carbon footprint you’re producing and do you think it’s fair the majority of us don’t want an electric car that you spend more time charging than you do driving . $25,000 to replace a lithium car battery . Can’t put a lithium car battery fire out with water , it has to burn itself out . Great if you park it in your garage when it starts burning. Try collecting insurance to replace your burned down home .

[bcsnave]

What do you think powers the heavy equipment to mine for lithium, diesel fuel and gasoline, not electric vehicles.
Not to mention the toxic chemicals used in mining for lithium renders the land uninhabitable for hundreds if not thousands of years . If you are using a refrigerator, air conditioning, electric stove /oven , TV , lights in your house or yard on electric , where do you think your electricity comes from . You have a large carbon footprint you’re producing and do you think it’s fair the majority of us don’t want an electric car that you spend more time charging than you do driving . $25,000 to replace a lithium car battery . Can’t put a lithium car battery fire out with water , it has to burn itself out . Great if you park it in your garage when it starts burning. Try collecting insurance to replace your burned down home .


AND....The process of extracting lithium consumes significant amounts of water and energy, and lithium mining can pollute the air and water with chemicals and heavy metals. In addition, mining lithium can disrupt wildlife habitats and cause soil erosion, leading to long-term ecological damage...but heck who cares about that:pepper2:

[Blackbird45]

I'm up there in age and I'm sure the majority of the people who post on this site are not too much younger than I am. Many of these people believe the combustion engine will be around forever. Forget it, we might not be around, but ICE will go the way of the Doe Doe bird. If not by an EV by something else. How to explain this, it has absolutely nothing to do with saving the planet. We are in a profit-oriented society. When it comes to all mighty dollar, we are the villains and the saviors of the planet, but it's only as a side effect. Companies will do whatever it takes to make a profit, if a few people die in their pursuit, its written off as the cost of doing business. Right now, there are some problems with EVs, but those will be address because there is gold in those hills.

[Rainger99]

Almost everyone has a petroleum powered vehicle and there are sometimes waits at the pump. EV charging islands will be as common as gas stations

But you fill most gas tanks in about 5 minutes. Big difference between waiting 5-10 minutes and 2-3 hours.

[bcsnave]

I'm up there in age and I'm sure the majority of the people who post on this site are not too much younger than I am. Many of these people believe the combustion engine will be around forever. Forget it, we might not be around, but ICE will go the way of the Doe Doe bird. If not by an EV by something else. How to explain this, it has absolutely nothing to do with saving the planet. We are in a profit-oriented society. When it comes to all mighty dollar, we are the villains and the saviors of the planet, but it's only as a side effect. Companies will do whatever it takes to make a profit, if a few people die in their pursuit, its written off as the cost of doing business. Right now, there are some problems with EVs, but those will be address because there is gold in those hills.

I am right up there with you in age...but long before you and I...the Holocene glacial retreat was a geographical phenomenon that involved the global retreat of glaciers (deglaciation) that previously had advanced during the Last Glacial Maximum. Ice sheet retreated some 19,000 years ago and accelerated after ca. 15,000 years ago...and people think we have control over it...think again..carry on:ho:

[Number 10 GI]

First problem with your post is that the source is Fox Business. Not a trusted source. Why? Fox Corporate had to pay more than 3/4 of a billion for reporting false information to their viewers. Secondly, didn't the buyer of the truck do some research before he bought the truck, as to cost for every aspect of owning a EV? Obviously, not! Many EV owners are happy with their EV cars/trucks. Typical FOX NOISE reporting!

NBC isn't a "trusted source" either. Remember in 1992 their fiasco with the exploding truck? After wrecking numerous trucks trying to prove how easily the gas tank ruptured and exploded in an accident, they couldn't get it to happen. Had to put an explosive device in the gas tank to get it to blow up.

I don't feel the urge to search the internet for examples, but if you search your memory the other main stream media sources have had their false stories also. Guess we should ignore them too.

[Number 10 GI]

You’re not subsidizing any part of my EV vehicle. It’s no different than any other tax break we all get throughout our lives. When we file a tax return do you forgo any of the write offs or breaks your entitled to legally take due to the tax codes? You can if you like pay more than you have to, knock yourself out. But don’t criticize those that don’t. There are currently incentives that are available should you choose to purchase an EV. It’s not like the government is handing out cash to people who decide to purchase one. If your paying the premium for a new EV vehicle, there are certain vehicles that can qualify for up to $7500 in rebates towards your taxes at years end. Like it or not, the incentives are there in hopes that more EV’s on the road will help to grow investments in research and the infrastructure around the country in the years to come. The incentives are temporary and have already been reduced as of this past April. Nobody is sending you a check of taxpayers money. We all pay our taxes, and we certainly don’t all agree on how those taxes are used, but it’s not as though we all haven’t benefited from them throughout our lives in some way shape or form. Our taxes subsidize everything this country does, least of your concerns should be a tax incentive on EV’s.

If it is a product/service that would be popular and cost efficient, subsidies aren't necessary.

[Blackbird45]

I am right up there with you in age...but long before you and I...the Holocene glacial retreat was a geographical phenomenon that involved the global retreat of glaciers (deglaciation) that previously had advanced during the Last Glacial Maximum. Ice sheet retreated some 19,000 years ago and accelerated after ca. 15,000 years ago...and people think we have control over it...think again..carry on:ho:

Maybe your right maybe man has to control of the weather, but you can't believe all this crap that we pump into the air we breathe is the one of smartest move we could make. Again, it has a lot to do with profit.

[golfing eagles]

Like all the Trillions we have given the oil companies over the decades to “find oil” ?

Apples and oranges. Finding oil is necessary for all the engines and appliances that run on oil and it's derivatives. Subsidizing YOUR EV because you think you are saving the planet is ridiculous. Send me a refund.

[dougawhite]

What some have attached to the rear drive axel is a generator to recharge the batteries while driving. Problem solved.

No such thing as a functioning perpetual motion machine, sorry. Adding a generator powered by the EV car's motion will not return as much power to the batteries as it takes to propel the vehicle, thus you're actually draining the battery faster.

[golfing eagles]

Mark Twain ~ "Better to remain silent & thought a fool than to open one's mouth & remove all doubt."

Agree. So why did you open your mouth??????

[Bill14564]

No such thing as a functioning perpetual motion machine, sorry. Adding a generator powered by the EV car's motion will not return as much power to the batteries as it takes to propel the vehicle, thus you're actually draining the battery faster.

Time to go back to engineering school.

The car's momentum needs to be converted into something in order for it to stop. Friction brakes turn it into heat which dissipates and is lost. Running the motor in generator mode converts some of that momentum into voltage to charge the battery. No, it does not return as much power as it took to get the vehicle moving but it does return some. If you happen to be using regenerative braking going down a steep hill it will return quite a bit.

Regenerative braking certainly does not drain the battery faster.

[golfing eagles]

You’re not subsidizing any part of my EV vehicle. It’s no different than any other tax break we all get throughout our lives. When we file a tax return do you forgo any of the write offs or breaks your entitled to legally take due to the tax codes? You can if you like pay more than you have to, knock yourself out. But don’t criticize those that don’t. There are currently incentives that are available should you choose to purchase an EV. It’s not like the government is handing out cash to people who decide to purchase one. If your paying the premium for a new EV vehicle, there are certain vehicles that can qualify for up to $7500 in rebates towards your taxes at years end. Like it or not, the incentives are there in hopes that more EV’s on the road will help to grow investments in research and the infrastructure around the country in the years to come. The incentives are temporary and have already been reduced as of this past April. Nobody is sending you a check of taxpayers money. We all pay our taxes, and we certainly don’t all agree on how those taxes are used, but it’s not as though we all haven’t benefited from them throughout our lives in some way shape or form. Our taxes subsidize everything this country does, least of your concerns should be a tax incentive on EV’s.

So, so wrong. If you get $7500 in tax rebates, the rest of us have to pay the $7500 that you didn't pay. Or we just add another $7500 to the national debt. My point is that there SHOULDN'T BE ANY TAX REBATE for the type of vehicle YOU CHOOSE to buy. If the average car costs $37,000 and I buy a $750,000 Ferrari, should I get a tax rebate?????? The only reason that a tax rebate is available is because certain powers that be, who by the way stand to make a fortune off this, are pushing this imminent global warming false narrative. I do not subscribe to that lie and do not want to enrich those who are telling the lie.

[Keefelane66]

With its inception in the 90’s the EV was designed as a commuter vehicle. With a range of up to 150 miles.
It’s not for everyone.
Give a choice I’ll take a hybrid over an EV.
My first hybrid purchased in 2008 sold it to my neighbor up north with 150,000 miles in 2013. He’s still driving it today with over 275,000 miles original batteries he claims still getting 50 mpg commuting to and from work.

[golfing eagles]

Are you saying we should do away with subsidies YOU receive? GREAT....I don't have to subsidize YOUR social security or Medicare anymore! :pepper2:

Is that because you are not currently or in the future going to receive Medicare or Social Security? If you are, you post is nonsense. I will never buy an EV, so I do not want to subsidize yours.

[bcsnave]

Is that because you are not currently or in the future going to receive Medicare or Social Security? If you are, you post is nonsense. I will never buy an EV, so I do not want to subsidize yours.

I agree with you but we all have just subsidized the electric bus company "solynd...I mean Proterra" after the electric bus company went belly up. Perhaps Hunter was a board member, who knows.:loco:

[jimjamuser]

But, but, but.......what about global warming????? Or is it only true when it doesn't inconvenience one of the believers?
E-cars and trucks are capable of causing a large social CHANGE. CHANGE is never easy and pretty. The fossil fuel vehicle has been around for 125 years. They are highly developed (over those 125 years) and sophisticated today with fossil fuel filling stations EVERYWHERE.
.......Think back, imagine back to 1900 when the automobile was replacing the horse and buggy. Cars were noisier and less reliable than the horse and buggy. It was probably pretty hard to find a gas station in 1900. Nevertheless, the technology of the automobile PREVAILED over the horse and buggy and is highly evolved and efficient today. Interesting, and when / if you check me out on this - you will find my numbers to be only approximate. The efficiency of a IC engine is ABOUT (something like) 20%. The efficiency of an electrical motor like a washing machine motor is (around) 90 %. Now , of course the motor in a Tesla or other EV is a DC motor. Personally, I do not know the exact efficiency for a Tesla motor. BUT, you can see how the efficiency POTENTIAL for an EV is SO MUCH greater than the IC engine vehicle.
........With that efficiency in mind, there is a lot of logic saying that the EV is a likely REPLACEMENT for the internal combustion vehicle. Also, DC motors have tremendous torque potential and that high torque starts at about ONE RPM. That is why the Tesla goes zero to 60 mph faster than gasoline vehicles.
.......EV are like gasoline vehicles were in 1910 - about 10 years into their early adaptation process. EV are BABIES and like BABIES they cause headaches and problems. Imagine an EV in 2050 when the technology is perfected. We are in the pioneering EV stage, so we MUST EXPECT some inconvenience. The Canadian guy in the story thought he could just pay $ 80K for a Ford EV and live happily EVER after. That is COMPLETELY UNREALISTIC for a pioneering technology like an EV.
........Its shortcomings must be understood, like range limits and charging station limits. If you can afford $80k for a truck, you need to do your research on its limitations and NOT expect everything to be wonderful. You buy an EV because it helps save the humans on earth and you enjoy the idea that you recognized the future before some of your neighbors. Think of an EV as bragging rights to a better tomorrow - it is NOT just a car or truck - it is the concept of being the 1st on your block willing to take a chance on a NEW AND BETTER technology. You are the pioneer - drive it locally and enjoy that while recognizing its EARLY limitations.
........When you take an EV (or philosophically, anything) BEYOND its limitations, you can EXPECT DISAPPOINTMENT.

[miadford@gmail.com]

I’ve recently read about the advancement of EVs. The autonomous driving cars are also driving the advancement of batteries and battery life. They are in development of them so that the battery charge will be lasting much longer, in the neighborhood of possibly 1000 miles. The new charger will take 2-3 minutes to do a charge on the road. The company I am referring to is a smaller unknown company that even Elon is invested in is called L.A.S.E.R. And it has something to do with LiDAR technology. Very interesting.

[rsmurano]

Read the car magazines and talk to people that own an EV. The car magazines and the people I know are glued to their screens the whole trip to make sure they can get to a charging station within the range they can go. I would hate that!
Also, my friends have said they get to charging station after a long stint and they might be the 3rd or 4th in line. So it’s going to be a couple hours of charging. Also, friends on the west coast have said that a lot of the charging stations are damaged and you can not know that until you get there. A family member of ours has a gasoline car and their close friend has an EV, every long trip their friend takes they ask to trade cars because they don’t like stopping every couple hundred miles.
A couple of things that turn me off: what happens when an EV stops running because they run out of power, you didn’t make it to the charging station? Do they have a roaming semi with a charging station on it to charge the EV? In a gas car, most gas stations will loan you a gallon container to add gas to get you to the gas station.
How many local dealers/mechanics will work on your EV? How many local mechanics will work on your gas car? All of them!
Our friends thought about coming down to visit us in their EV and they thought they could charge their EV overnight at the hotel: no charging stations!
When the number of charging stations equals or is higher than the number of gas stations; when you can get 500 miles per charge, and the time it takes to get a full charge equals the time it takes to fill your tank with gas; all at the same price of a gas car, I’ll look at buying an EV so in 20-30 years I might be buying 1

[Byte1]

EVs are cool technology, BUT/BUT I am perfectly comfortable with my less expensive fossil fuel burner. Considering the fact that the air is cleaner than when I was a child, I am not worried that the air will suddenly be polluted beyond comfort in the next ten to twenty years I have left. We have come a long way with air pollution control. I don't take long trips anymore, so having to sit in the line to charge an EV is not an issue. It would be if I was a traveler again. I don't know what the trade in value is, or the depreciation rate is on an EV, but that won't have much motive for me either. I like new technology and I am disappointed that more use of hydrogen fuel cells hasn't been encouraged, since it really IS clean fuel. I have a electric golf cart that I have converted to lithium power, but to be honest with you, I would totally go with a gas powered golf cart if I had to do it over again.
When I was a kid, we used to ride electric street cars around town. Now the tracks have been torn up and the street cars have been replaced with buses. Guess no one was concerned about climate change when they did the conversion. And no, I do not consider climate change, global warming, global cooling on any of my plus or minus points when considering my mode of transportation. I think that it is great that folks are keeping great companies like Tesla in business. And I do think that EVs are pretty cool. Just won't own one, UNLESS they ban gasoline or diesel. I remain open minded and ready to be convinced. So far, no one has convinced me that I would be better off with an EV. Maybe I will change my mind when I win the billion buck lottery.

[bcsnave]

EVs are cool technology, BUT/BUT I am perfectly comfortable with my less expensive fossil fuel burner. Considering the fact that the air is cleaner than when I was a child, I am not worried that the air will suddenly be polluted beyond comfort in the next ten to twenty years I have left. We have come a long way with air pollution control. I don't take long trips anymore, so having to sit in the line to charge an EV is not an issue. It would be if I was a traveler again. I don't know what the trade in value is, or the depreciation rate is on an EV, but that won't have much motive for me either. I like new technology and I am disappointed that more use of hydrogen fuel cells hasn't been encouraged, since it really IS clean fuel. I have a electric golf cart that I have converted to lithium power, but to be honest with you, I would totally go with a gas powered golf cart if I had to do it over again.
When I was a kid, we used to ride electric street cars around town. Now the tracks have been torn up and the street cars have been replaced with buses. Guess no one was concerned about climate change when they did the conversion. And no, I do not consider climate change, global warming, global cooling on any of my plus or minus points when considering my mode of transportation. I think that it is great that folks are keeping great companies like Tesla in business. And I do think that EVs are pretty cool. Just won't own one, UNLESS they ban gasoline or diesel. I remain open minded and ready to be convinced. So far, no one has convinced me that I would be better off with an EV. Maybe I will change my mind when I win the billion buck lottery.


Can I be your friend when you win the billion buck lottery:wave:

[JMintzer]

First problem with your post is that the source is Fox Business. Not a trusted source. Why? Fox Corporate had to pay more than 3/4 of a billion for reporting false information to their viewers. Secondly, didn't the buyer of the truck do some research before he bought the truck, as to cost for every aspect of owning a EV? Obviously, not! Many EV owners are happy with their EV cars/trucks. Typical FOX NOISE reporting!

FOX News! Everybody drink!

[JMintzer]

You’re not subsidizing any part of my EV vehicle. It’s no different than any other tax break we all get throughout our lives. When we file a tax return do you forgo any of the write offs or breaks your entitled to legally take due to the tax codes? You can if you like pay more than you have to, knock yourself out. But don’t criticize those that don’t. There are currently incentives that are available should you choose to purchase an EV. It’s not like the government is handing out cash to people who decide to purchase one. If your paying the premium for a new EV vehicle, there are certain vehicles that can qualify for up to $7500 in rebates towards your taxes at years end. Like it or not, the incentives are there in hopes that more EV’s on the road will help to grow investments in research and the infrastructure around the country in the years to come. The incentives are temporary and have already been reduced as of this past April. Nobody is sending you a check of taxpayers money. We all pay our taxes, and we certainly don’t all agree on how those taxes are used, but it’s not as though we all haven’t benefited from them throughout our lives in some way shape or form. Our taxes subsidize everything this country does, least of your concerns should be a tax incentive on EV’s.

It's the Government picking winners and losers...

[JMintzer]

I'm going to have to call BS on that statement. You must have gotten that nonsense from your favorite propaganda station years ago. That may have been true back when the first hybrids came out and used lead-acid batteries, but it's not true for Lithium-ion batteries.

Here's the concluding paragraph from a Car and Driver article last year:



How Long Do Electric Car Batteries Last? - Car and Driver (https://www.caranddriver.com/research/a31875141/electric-car-battery-life/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=arb_ga_cd_md_comm_pmx_us_urlx_1871505 4781&gclid=CjwKCAjw29ymBhAKEiwAHJbJ8jYTCICX18PBeIxpfDYc SvL3R9nrhJgbXZCcUIgB8y-CQfTEv1Qu6BoCBZgQAvD_BwE)

"The truth is that today's EV batteries will inevitably need replacing in the future. Fortunately, modern EV battery packs should prove problem-free for nearly the first decade of use—possibly even longer. By the time today's EVs will need a replacement battery pack it's likely the manufacturing and material costs will be far less than they are today. We're not saying that replacing your EV's lithium-ion battery pack a decade from now will be cheap, but we wager doing so will be much more affordable than it is today."

"SHOULD be problem free..."

"It's LIKELY that they costs will be less..."

We WAGER will be much more affordable..."

And you have the stones to comment on "propaganda"...

What's your source of news? That station that recently lost a few hundred million to Nick Sandman?

[JMintzer]

Tolls, registration fees and taxes ?

Except EVs are exempt from HOV Tolls...

Are you in favor of increasing registration and taxes for EVs to make them more in line with ICE vehicles?

[JMintzer]

The problem with Government subsidies for EVs is that it skews the real cost comparison of EVs to gasoline vehicles. If EVs are competitive with gasoline vehicles, then take away the subsidy and let the free market determine which vehicle people will buy.

Then they couldn't pick winners and losers...Nor practice social engineering...

[JMintzer]

Hahahaha, no its shared by those who watch a certain TV channel. It's astounding that scientists are wrong, and college dropouts spouting propaganda are right in your world.

:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

I'd respond in kind, but I don't want another "vacation"...

[Bill14564]

Except EVs are exempt from HOV Tolls...

Are you in favor of increasing registration and taxes for EVs to make them more in line with ICE vehicles?

Find a good way to do that and I would be in favor of it.

To be equivalent to cars there would need to be a way to determine the number of miles driven.

To be fair to FL residents there would need to be a way to tax the tourists. (or some reason to believe there are relatively few EVs from out of state)

[JMintzer]

It takes a long time for a newly planted tree to provide real shade and you likely will never get to enjoy the benefits before you die. I guess we should quit planting trees! ;-)

If your goal is immediate shade, yes, planting a sapling is pointless...

Which of course has nothing to do with reforestation...

[JMintzer]

Assume you are for removing the $20 billion in subsidies the oil industry gets from the government too?
Chairman Press | Chairman's Newsroom | Chairman | U.S. Senate Committee On The Budget (https://www.budget.senate.gov/chairman/newsroom/press/sen-whitehouse-on-fossil-fuel-subsidies-we-are-subsidizing-the-danger-#:~:text=It%27s%20not%20just%20the%20US,to%20the%2 0fossil%20fuel%20industry).

Sure, cite an extremely partisan congresscritter to back up your ridiculous claim...

Oil companies deduct business costs, just like any other business... It's not a "subsidy"...

One of their many costs is "exploration"...

[JMintzer]

Are you saying we should do away with subsidies YOU receive? GREAT....I don't have to subsidize YOUR social security or Medicare anymore! :pepper2:

We paid (by force) in to Medicare and Social Security with the promise of a return.

It's most certainly not a subsidy...

[JMintzer]

Toyota was criticized for stating the U.S. in general and definitely most other parts of the world are not ready for an all EV personal fleet. They prefer to pursue highly efficient hybrid designs. I agree with Toyota. EVs have their uses but the U.S. has a long way to go before we will be ready to convert all personal vehicles to EV. The electrical grids need massive overhauls. But that doesn't mean we can't continue the transition using hybrid technology for now.

I agree. My next car will most likely be a hybrid...

[JMintzer]

Almost everyone has a petroleum powered vehicle and there are sometimes waits at the pump. EV charging islands will be as common as gas stations

When? When will the infrastructure be able to handle the increased load?
Where will the add electricity come from?

[JMintzer]

Read the car magazines and talk to people that own an EV. The car magazines and the people I know are glued to their screens the whole trip to make sure they can get to a charging station within the range they can go. I would hate that!
Also, my friends have said they get to charging station after a long stint and they might be the 3rd or 4th in line. So it’s going to be a couple hours of charging. Also, friends on the west coast have said that a lot of the charging stations are damaged and you can not know that until you get there. A family member of ours has a gasoline car and their close friend has an EV, every long trip their friend takes they ask to trade cars because they don’t like stopping every couple hundred miles.
A couple of things that turn me off: what happens when an EV stops running because they run out of power, you didn’t make it to the charging station? Do they have a roaming semi with a charging station on it to charge the EV? In a gas car, most gas stations will loan you a gallon container to add gas to get you to the gas station.
How many local dealers/mechanics will work on your EV? How many local mechanics will work on your gas car? All of them!
Our friends thought about coming down to visit us in their EV and they thought they could charge their EV overnight at the hotel: no charging stations!
When the number of charging stations equals or is higher than the number of gas stations; when you can get 500 miles per charge, and the time it takes to get a full charge equals the time it takes to fill your tank with gas; all at the same price of a gas car, I’ll look at buying an EV so in 20-30 years I might be buying 1

You call AAA and they show up with a DEISEL powered tow truck that may have a DEISEL powered generator to charge/tow your EV...

[JMintzer]

Find a good way to do that and I would be in favor of it.

To be equivalent to cars there would need to be a way to determine the number of miles driven.

To be fair to FL residents there would need to be a way to tax the tourists. (or some reason to believe there are relatively few EVs from out of state)

Unfortunately, the "Good Way" the government chose is doling out $7500 rebated on every EV sold... Which is the complete opposite of what we're talking about...

[jimjamuser]

So, if everyone owned an EV, do you think you would still get instant access to a charging station?
I would imagine that would mean that the industry would build more charging stations to accommodate the additional need............basic supply and demand.

[jimjamuser]

I wonder--do people really know how that electricity they use in their EVs is generated? It is not the squeaky-clean, totally environmentally friendly (whatever that means) power that some people seem to think.

According to EIA dot gov, the breakdown is as follows:

FOSSIL FUELS: 60.2% of the total, coal and natural gas mainly.

NUCLEAR: 18.2%

RENEWABLES: 21.5%. wind, solar, hydropower, etc., also includes biomass (wood, landfill gas) and geothermal.

All in all, not quite so clean as many of us seem to want to believe.
And that defines the problem to be solved ahead in the future. We as a country and a modern society need to work TOWARD more clean, green energy. I understand that nuclear energy has made great strides in safety. There is much research going on.

[jimjamuser]

Apparently, only 4% of the population owns an EV. There are about 1-2 million on the road and there are about 58,000 in Florida.

How Many Electric Vehicles Are There In The U.S.? 19+ Stats! (https://www.simplyinsurance.com/how-many-electric-vehicles-in-the-us/#t-1647955829497)
I wonder if one-day battery technology got so strong that all the hybrid vehicles could get battery replacements that would keep the gas engine part of the hybrid from almost never needing to be used.

[jimjamuser]

Are the charging stations also being subsidized by the Federal Government?
I would say that most EV travel today is from home to work or shopping and then back home. The EV owner pays for their own charger and electricity. As far as the Federal government's involvement goes, they have a history of trying to stimulate new industries (such as railroads and oil) that they think are NEEDED for America to grow, prosper, or have a better quality of life.
.......EV's produce less pollution overall than IC vehicles because the electrical generation plant is stationary so it can have BIG efficient scrubbers, which are NOT possible on mobile vehicles. Also, often the electricity is cleanly generated. Less pollution is wanted by the Federal Government because their expert Doctors know that it will improve US health and quality of life. People will live longer, and work longer, which would EVEN HELP national defense. I believe that the Federal Government OFTEN gets things right. I hope that I am NOT in the minority on that.

[Vermilion Villager]

Almost everyone has a petroleum powered vehicle and there are sometimes waits at the pump. EV charging islands will be as common as gas stations
EXACTLY!!!!!
In the not to distant future there will be the tipping point. Starbucks, Publix, and other businesses will realize "Hey...I can sell power to a guy while he gets coffee, groceries, or goes to the mall for 2-3 hours". I don't need to put a tank in the ground, buy 10,000 gallons of flammable fluid, and spend $25,000 for one gas pump (yes that what they cost). The power is at the pole, and I don't pay for it till I use it. I simply charge EV dude a percentage more than what it costs me.
After not too long the 7-elevens, and WaWa's of the world will start doing the same.

As far as all the old dinosaurs here grousing on how bad this will all be, now you know how the people who used to work in the buggy whip factories sounded when they invented the Model A. :1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

[jimjamuser]

There are certainly choices that are not gasoline only or electric only cars.

Plug in hybrids cover the daily commute and still have a gas engine to go long distances. In my opinion this is the intelligent choice for most for the next twenty years.
I agree with this post. And would add that after 20 years the 100% electric vehicles will likely have all the disadvantages and kinks designed out of them and their reliability and clean air advantages will likely impress and benefit people. Likely charging stations will be replacing gas stations by then.
.........Gas engines will just be something quaint from a bygone era like the horse and buggy. (mere collector items)

[Vermilion Villager]

When? When will the infrastructure be able to handle the increased load?
Where will the add electricity come from?
You see light poles or buildings with lights along roads? The base for the electrical infrastructure is already there!!

They are expirementing now by mixing cement and carbon black (materials that have been around for thousands of years) and incorporating it into a roadway. The mixture can hold and transfer electricity. Vehicles could be charged while moving.
MIT engineers create an energy-storing supercapacitor from ancient materials | MIT News | Massachusetts Institute of Technology (https://news.mit.edu/2023/mit-engineers-create-supercapacitor-ancient-materials-0731)

[jimjamuser]

So, why should I partially subsidize even $0.01 of YOUR ev???
Well, one benefit would be to breathe cleaner air and thus live longer. Also, the less noise from an EV is better for quality of life. The batteries in an EV make the vehicle have a lower center of gravity than an IC vehicle. Lower center of gravity allows a vehicle to BRAKE faster........maybe (?) that could save someone's life.

[jimjamuser]

Most studies show that the vast majority of households have under $10,000 in savings and the average cost of EVs is about $61,000.

Even if people wanted to buy an EV, most people could not afford to buy one.

Does anyone think that the prices will come down drastically in the next 10 years?


Electric Car Prices: The Average Electric Car Cost in 2023 (https://www.findmyelectric.com/blog/electric-car-prices/)
There is a COST to people's lungs when they breathe polluted air. That is a main reason why EVs should be encouraged by the government and society. Oil probably has a better use in medicines and other uses besides ICE fuel.

[Vermilion Villager]

Sure, cite an extremely partisan congresscritter to back up your ridiculous claim...

Oil companies deduct business costs, just like any other business... It's not a "subsidy"...

One of their many costs is "exploration"...
I wasn't talking business expenses or tax deductions. I was refering to "subsidies". Here's the definition:
A subsidy is a direct or indirect payment to individuals or firms, usually in the form of a cash payment from the government or a targeted tax cut.
Here's big oil's subsidies defined:
Reforming global fossil fuel subsidies: How the United States can restart international cooperation | Brookings (https://www.brookings.edu/articles/reforming-global-fossil-fuel-subsidies-how-the-united-states-can-restart-international-cooperation/)

[jimjamuser]

If electric cars don’t use gas, how do the much heavier electric cars pay for road tax to repair the roads?
Governments can get tax money any way they see fit. There does NOT have to be a direct relationship between road repair and the energy source of vehicles. Road repair could come from a general fund that comes from income taxes. It is basically an arbitrary system. A government could put tax on dog licenses to pay for road repair.

[kcrazorbackfan]

You have made it quite clear that is your belief. It is not shared by all.

It is in our family.

[jimjamuser]

Drivers of EVs in Florida are subsidizing your gasoline by paying their part of the cost to keep the oil flowing in the Middle East, which has cost us TRILLIONS of dollars not to mention many lives. The gas tax is roundoff error in comparison.

I'd bet that if you actually paid at the pump for ALL the cost of your gasoline (including military and damage to the environment and people's health), it would be more than $10/gallon. If you saw just how much you are really spending on your gas guzzler, you'd be chomping at the bit for an EV.
I like the mention of people's health. Put those costs into the equation. I assume most people prefer to breathe CLEAN air.

[jimjamuser]

The problem with Government subsidies for EVs is that it skews the real cost comparison of EVs to gasoline vehicles. If EVs are competitive with gasoline vehicles, then take away the subsidy and let the free market determine which vehicle people will buy.
Then take back ALL the subsidies paid out to oil companies through the years. I'd like some of that money.

[jimjamuser]

So, so wrong. If you get $7500 in tax rebates, the rest of us have to pay the $7500 that you didn't pay. Or we just add another $7500 to the national debt. My point is that there SHOULDN'T BE ANY TAX REBATE for the type of vehicle YOU CHOOSE to buy. If the average car costs $37,000 and I buy a $750,000 Ferrari, should I get a tax rebate?????? The only reason that a tax rebate is available is because certain powers that be, who by the way stand to make a fortune off this, are pushing this imminent global warming false narrative. I do not subscribe to that lie and do not want to enrich those who are telling the lie.
Record temperatures are all around us. TV land and Orlando....100 degrees. (nice round number) Just another example of the EVER INCREASING temperatures in the last 10 years.

[bcsnave]

You see light poles or buildings with lights along roads? The base for the electrical infrastructure is already there!!

They are expirementing now by mixing cement and carbon black (materials that have been around for thousands of years) and incorporating it into a roadway. The mixture can hold and transfer electricity. Vehicles could be charged while moving.
MIT engineers create an energy-storing supercapacitor from ancient materials | MIT News | Massachusetts Institute of Technology (https://news.mit.edu/2023/mit-engineers-create-supercapacitor-ancient-materials-0731)

Well there is the old stand by-----a bathtub full of water and toss in a plugged in toaster...that mixture can also transfer electricity...give er' a shot:a040:

[manaboutown]

You see light poles or buildings with lights along roads? The base for the electrical infrastructure is already there!!

They are expirementing now by mixing cement and carbon black (materials that have been around for thousands of years) and incorporating it into a roadway. The mixture can hold and transfer electricity. Vehicles could be charged while moving.
MIT engineers create an energy-storing supercapacitor from ancient materials | MIT News | Massachusetts Institute of Technology (https://news.mit.edu/2023/mit-engineers-create-supercapacitor-ancient-materials-0731)

Expirementing is right. lol.

[Dlpdo]

They can’t take it out of the taxes of the 47% who don’t pay tax

I am not aware that there is any adult in the US that does not pay taxes to the government.

[golfing eagles]

I am not aware that there is any adult in the US that does not pay taxes to the government.

Get aware. The reference is to the 47% (and growing) of citizens that pay zero federal income tax.

[melpetezrinski]

The google search was absolutely WRONG. !00% charge is fine for Tesla battery systems. One battery they use is perfect to charge 100%. The other is fine if you travel soon after charging to 100%. 55-60% is is not true - it's FUD. We plan to get a new Tesla very soon. There are many Musk/Tesla haters out there... they easily spew FUD.

Please re-read my post. Actually, just re-read the first 4 WORDS. I was ONLY referring to best practice for cycling Tesla batteries WHEN TAKING LONG TRIPS. How did misconstrue the WHOLE point of my post? Discharging to 0 percent and charging to 100% is perfectly acceptable for the batteries under certain situations. You are correct. However, on long trips, to maximize distance and minimize charging time, you want to charge the batteries between 5 and 60 percent approximately.

[OhioBuckeye]

Proof from a couple that drive from Texas to Ohio 3 times a yr. I haven’t yet seen a EV charger yet, so you must have to drive a ways to find one so make sure you have enough battery life left to find one, hopefully you’re not waiting on 2 or 3 other EV’s, where ever that might be! EV’s aren’t a vacation vehicle’s!

[JMintzer]

You see light poles or buildings with lights along roads? The base for the electrical infrastructure is already there!!

And they can barely keep up with the current energy use. You think they will be able to handle the MASSIVE increase needed to charge EVs?

Since they are already in place, why is CA telling people NOT to charge their EVs when they get home in the evening, so they won't have brown/black outs?

They are expirementing now by mixing cement and carbon black (materials that have been around for thousands of years) and incorporating it into a roadway. The mixture can hold and transfer electricity. Vehicles could be charged while moving.
MIT engineers create an energy-storing supercapacitor from ancient materials | MIT News | Massachusetts Institute of Technology (https://news.mit.edu/2023/mit-engineers-create-supercapacitor-ancient-materials-0731)

They are experimenting with a lot of things. Some will pan out, some will not.

But let's not put the cart before the horse (which is what many are currently promoting...)

[JMintzer]

Then take back ALL the subsidies paid out to oil companies through the years. I'd like some of that money.

Those "subsidies" are simply the deduction of business costs. Just like ANY other business...

They like to call them "subsidies" in order to vilify the oil companies...

The same with "entitlement programs"...

They now use that as a pejorative. SS and Medicare most certainly are "entitlements", since you paid into the system with the promise of a payout at retirement. You are "entitled" to those benefits.

But now, they add "Medicaid and Welfare" into those programs they like to call "entitlements". Sorry, but you are not "entitled to either of those. They are a handout, a charity. and should be defined as such...

[jimjamuser]

Well there is the old stand by-----a bathtub full of water and toss in a plugged in toaster...that mixture can also transfer electricity...give er' a shot:a040:
Actually, pure water does NOT conduct electricity. It will somewhat conduct if there are impurities in the water. I doubt that an adult would be electrocuted in that situation. Maybe a child could (?) die. I was a former electronics tech so I must have touched live 120 volts a hundred times. If my hands were sweaty then the shock was a LITTLE stronger. But, any adult can survive 120 volts. Logically, that is why it is standard in homes.
.......Now 220 volts is an entirely different animal, it can easily kill an adult, so be VERY AFRAID of 220 volts!!!!!!

[JMintzer]

Record temperatures are all around us. TV land and Orlando....100 degrees. (nice round number) Just another example of the EVER INCREASING temperatures in the last 10 years.

https://www.upscience-labs.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/REPLAY.gif

[JMintzer]

I was a former electronics tech so I must have touched live 120 volts a hundred times.

Nah... Too easy... :p

[jimjamuser]

I am not aware that there is any adult in the US that does not pay taxes to the government.
That is correct, but there are exceptions to everything. Non-citizens in the US are sometimes recruited by unscrupulous contractors (for example). Then they are paid "under the table" in order to avoid taxation. This would probably represent 1 or 2 percent of all workers - certainly not approaching 47%.

[JMintzer]

That is correct, but there are exceptions to everything. Non-citizens in the US are sometimes recruited by unscrupulous contractors (for example). Then they are paid "under the table" in order to avoid taxation. This would probably represent 1 or 2 percent of all workers - certainly not approaching 47%.

FEDERAL INCOME TAX...

It actually dropped a bit for 2022...

"An estimated 72.5 million households -- or 40% of total households -- will pay no federal income taxes for tax year 2022, according to an analysis from the Tax Policy Center. The share marks a substantial decline from the 59.3% who paid no federal income taxes in 2020 and from the 56% in 2021."

[Battlebasset]

I drive an electric golf cart for the Villages and golf. I have a gasoline car when I want to go further/faster.

Both are excellent for their intended use. But at this point in time, an EV as your car is an "80%" car. By that I mean that for 80% of the time, it is only used in this area, and then goes back to its garage to be recharged. No worries

But then there is that "20%" when you need to go farther. Or something comes up and you don't have time to recharge fully. Or you do take it on a longer trip and you can't find/have to wait for a charger, or there are software glitches and the charger won't work with your car. Or you are in a dark parking lot nervously recharging and hoping you aren't mugged, or worse.

This, plus the fact that I keep my cars longer than the 10 year battery warranty, and many of battery components are mined/sold by the communist Chinese who are horrifically exploiting those that do the mining, puts EV on my "don't buy" list for the time being. And if they are so great, why do we need to provide subsidies?

For those of you that don't mind those things, you are welcome to be the beta test pioneer. I'll wait and see how it plays out. Because remember:

"The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse get the cheese".

[Number 10 GI]

I wasn't talking business expenses or tax deductions. I was refering to "subsidies". Here's the definition:
A subsidy is a direct or indirect payment to individuals or firms, usually in the form of a cash payment from the government or a targeted tax cut.
Here's big oil's subsidies defined:
Reforming global fossil fuel subsidies: How the United States can restart international cooperation | Brookings (https://www.brookings.edu/articles/reforming-global-fossil-fuel-subsidies-how-the-united-states-can-restart-international-cooperation/)

That boring, heavily biased, article never mentioned specifically what these subsidies are, only that they should be eliminated. Most probable reason is that these "subsidies" are normal business expense deductions that all businesses take and not free handouts of money.

[JMintzer]

That boring, heavily biased, article never mentioned specifically what these subsidies are, only that they should be eliminated. Most probable reason is that these "subsidies" are normal business expense deductions that all businesses take and not free handouts of money.

Great minds... See post #168... :agree:

[Topspinmo]

This credit takes absolutely nothing from anyone. This tax credit is non-refundable - you can't claim more than you actually pay. This credit can set your tax liability to $0 but does not pay you anything back. This credit doesn't take money from the poor to pay the rich, it simply says the purchaser doesn't have to pay that amount in their taxes this year.

(This is unlike other credits where money is taken from taxpayers to give refunds to those who pay $0 in taxes.... a true example of taking from the rich and giving to the poor)


Give it up.

[JSRusso]

Does anyone know if the golf cart that caught fire on Sunday was an EV? https://www.**************.com/2023/08/13/fire-instantly-incinerates-golf-cart-on-multi-modal-path-in-the-villages/

[txfan]

Love my EV car and golf cart (the only type to have on a golf course). Climate change definitely is real.

Monday, August 14
11 a.m. – News conference with NASA Administrator Bill Nelson, NASA climate experts, and the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) on the latest climate data findings:

NASA to Discuss Temperature Data, Climate Goals | NASA (https://www.nasa.gov/press-release/nasa-to-discuss-temperature-data-climate-goals/)

[jimjamuser]

Does anyone know if the golf cart that caught fire on Sunday was an EV? https://www.**************.com/2023/08/13/fire-instantly-incinerates-golf-cart-on-multi-modal-path-in-the-villages/
I do NOT know about that specific situation. But, logically, we know that gasoline is a very inflammable liquid that can explode in some situations. That has NOT changed since 1900 - the beginnings of ICE cars and trucks. Electric vehicles are in their infancy - their developmental INFANCY. Same way with their batteries. They will be improved greatly until they never catch on fire. Gasoline engines STILL catch on fire EVEN after 125 years of safety development. That's why Electric Vehicles are superior to gas.
......Plus advantages of lower center of gravity, fewer moving parts, no pistons, greater acceleration, and ultimately (after a few years) much better safety and lower maintenance.

[Fastskiguy]

My wife and I just recently purchased the Hyundai Ioniq 5. We love it! Lots of power, handles great and plenty of space for the kids and our dogs. It gets about 270 miles on a full charge, and has the ability to DC fast charge up to 80% in about 20 minutes.

We just got the base tesla model 3 and have very similar stats. It's just a fantastic car all around, fast, comfortable, quiet, and we love the tech!

Teslas are sold without chargers these days so we've had to use superchargers but it's surprising how easy it is to grab 20 minutes of charge and be on our way. Once our charger gets installed (tomorrow!!!) we'll have 270 miles ready to go every single day, plenty of range.

Can't wait to take a road trip with it because the darn thing drives itself, it's amazing!

Oh yeah and I couldn't care less if it's battery powered, if an ICE car could do what the electric car can do I would have bought ICE.

Joe

[golfing eagles]

We just got the base tesla model 3 and have very similar stats. It's just a fantastic car all around, fast, comfortable, quiet, and we love the tech!

Teslas are sold without chargers these days so we've had to use superchargers but it's surprising how easy it is to grab 20 minutes of charge and be on our way. Once our charger gets installed (tomorrow!!!) we'll have 270 miles ready to go every single day, plenty of range.

Can't wait to take a road trip with it because the darn thing drives itself, it's amazing!

Oh yeah and I couldn't care less if it's battery powered, if an ICE car could do what the electric car can do I would have bought ICE.

Joe

I guess that will be a road trip with frequent stops, like every 200 miles or so

[golfing eagles]

Love my EV car and golf cart (the only type to have on a golf course). Climate change definitely is real.

Monday, August 14
11 a.m. – News conferences with NASA Administrator Bill Nelson, NASA climate experts, and the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) on the latest climate data findings:

NASA to Discuss Temperature Data, Climate Goals | NASA (https://www.nasa.gov/press-release/nasa-to-discuss-temperature-data-climate-goals/)

Climate change is real. The false narrative that humans are causing it is what is being crammed down our throats

[Fastskiguy]

My wife and I just recently purchased the Hyundai Ioniq 5. We love it! Lots of power, handles great and plenty of space for the kids and our dogs. It gets about 270 miles on a full charge, and has the ability to DC fast charge up to 80% in about 20 minutes. The vast majority of the time its used by my wife to go back and forth from work which isn’t too far about 15 miles each way. She only charges the vehicle once every week. It will take about 8 hours to go from 5% to 100% on our level two charger in the garage. As an added bonus, Hyundai includes free charging at Electrify America chargers for 2 years. We didn’t buy it to save the planet. We drove it and loved it. We got $7500 tax incentive taken directly off the MSRP and an additional $2500 discount so the Limited trim version was 48k. I’m looking forward to trading in my Toyota Camry in the next year and am certain I will go with another EV. Quiet, Fast, Comfortable, no fumes or smells, no carbon monoxide worries, and little to no maintenance required. As for road trips, I do plan to drive it to back and forth between NY, South Carolina and Florida. We are the type who get restless after 3 or 4 hours of driving and take frequent breaks. Charging the vehicle to 80% in 20 minutes while I’m grabbing a snack or using the rest room isn’t a problem.

I guess that will be a road trip with frequent stops, like every 200 miles or so

My wife has a clotting disorder and needs to walk about 50 paces every hour or so so we stop pretty frequently anyway. Even so, you could bang out an 800 mile day with only 3 stops so it isn't too bad.

If you can do 1000 miles in a day with only 2 stops....well I tip my hat to you, Sir!

Joe

[The Chipster]

I have been loving my EV for 3 years. But I only use it to drive around town (95% of my driving), and charge it in my garage about once every 10 days. The few times I have had to charge it "on the road" was simple, and I had lunch while it was charging. This is an awesome technology, but best for folks that have a simple EV charger in their garage, and a gas car for the spouse.

[golfing eagles]

I have been loving my EV for 3 years. But I only use it to drive around town (95% of my driving), and charge it in my garage about once every 10 days. The few times I have had to charge it "on the road" was simple, and I had lunch while it was charging. This is an awesome technology, but best for folks that have a simple EV charger in their garage, and a gas car for the spouse.

If EVs are so great, why are you sticking your spouse with the gas car?????:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

[txfan]

Climate change is real. The false narrative that humans are causing it is what is being crammed down our throats

Your only expertise is being a TOTV perma-poster who prides himself in chastising everyone's discussion topics if they don't fit your narrative.

Please enlighten us again on how many alleged eagles you've had.

"Science doesn't care what you think."

[Fastskiguy]

Climate change is real. The false narrative that humans are causing it is what is being crammed down our throats

I honestly don't know what "narrative" to believe but......You don't think the 30 billion tons of CO2 that humans produce each year has any effect on the atmosphere and environment? Are you saying we can pollute all we want and it won't make any difference? Are you completely refuting the old saying "Give a hoot, don't pollute"?

Joe

[Fastskiguy]

(that's 81 trillion pounds of Co2 per year for the imperial until crowd)

[mickey100]

Toyota has just announced a breakthrough in battery technology -solid state batteries that are projected to give a driving range of about 600 miles. Sounds like they will be coming up in the 3 or 4 years.

[golfing eagles]

I honestly don't know what "narrative" to believe but......You don't think the 30 billion tons of CO2 that humans produce each year has any effect on the atmosphere and environment? Are you saying we can pollute all we want and it won't make any difference? Are you completely refuting the old saying "Give a hoot, don't pollute"?

Joe

(that's 81 trillion pounds of Co2 per year for the imperial until crowd)

So why are atmospheric CO2 levels at a relative historical low???????

[golfing eagles]

Your only expertise is being a TOTV perma-poster who prides himself in chastising everyone's discussion topics if they don't fit your narrative.

Please enlighten us again on how many alleged eagles you've had.

"Science doesn't care what you think."

Not "my narrative", the unbiased scientific facts

But I'm glad that you have the psychic intuition to know what my "only expertise" is :1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl: What's your expertise????

And I have no idea what an "alleged" eagle is, you're either 2 under on a hole or you aren't. Or are you an alleged golfer?????

[retiredguy123]

I honestly don't know what "narrative" to believe but......You don't think the 30 billion tons of CO2 that humans produce each year has any effect on the atmosphere and environment? Are you saying we can pollute all we want and it won't make any difference? Are you completely refuting the old saying "Give a hoot, don't pollute"?

Joe
My issue is that, if climate change is a global problem, why are U.S. taxpayers being asked to pay for it while China and others are laughing all the way to the bank.

[golfing eagles]

My issue is that, if climate change is a global problem, why are U.S. taxpayers being asked to pay for it while China and others are laughing all the way to the bank.

Because China and others don't have to push a false narrative that will enrich a few powerful people if they convince enough voters that humans are causing an imminent "climate change" that will wipe out all life on Earth in 50 years.

[Bill14564]

So why are atmospheric CO2 levels at a relative historical low???????

That will be news to many scientists. Levels seem to be at their highest point in the last 40,000 years and increasing.

[golfing eagles]

That will be news to many scientists. Levels seem to be at their highest point in the last 40,000 years and increasing.

No problem. I'm not sure the graphs will post.

"Here’s a better graph of CO2 and temperature for the last 600 million years! As noted, CO2 levels have historically been quite a bit higher than current levels Joe!

You might note that at 4400 ppm, the earths temperature was roughly the same as it is today! AND an ice age occurred while CO2 was over 4,000 ppm!

So what is the AGW scam really about? Global income redistribution, as admitted by IPCC officials!

Interesting that Romm’s graphs show a much lower level of atmospheric CO2 than actually existed! Note how much higher the average global temperature has been, than it is today! We live in a temporary low temperature bubble!


In the last 600 million years of Earth’s history only the Carboniferous Period and our present age, the Quaternary Period, have witnessed CO2 levels less than 400 ppm.

Global Temperature and Atmospheric CO2 over Geologic Time


Late Carboniferous to Early Permian time (315 mya — 270 mya) is the only time period in the last 600 million years when both atmospheric CO2 and temperatures were as low as they are today (Quaternary Period ).

Temperature after C.R. Scotese Climate History (http://www.scotese.com/climate.htm)


CO2 after R.A. Berner, 2001 (GEOCARB III)


There has historically been much more CO2 in our atmosphere than exists today. For example:


During the Jurassic Period (200 mya), average CO2 concentrations were about 1800 ppm or about 4.7 times higher than today.


The highest concentrations of CO2 during all of the Paleozoic Era occurred during the Cambrian Period, nearly 7000 ppm — about 18 times higher than today.


The Carboniferous Period and the Ordovician Period were the only geological periods during the Paleozoic Era when global temperatures were as low as they are today. To the consternation of global warming proponents, the Late Ordovician Period was also an Ice Age while at the same time CO2 concentrations then were nearly 12 times higher than today — 4400 ppm.

According to greenhouse theory, Earth should have been exceedingly hot. Instead, global temperatures were no warmer than today. Clearly, other factors besides atmospheric carbon influence earth temperatures and global warming.

And Joe Romm insists the records must be wrong? The sky is falling? The emperor has new clothes?

[jimjamuser]

I guess that will be a road trip with frequent stops, like every 200 miles or so
When I am on a vacation road trip I prefer an unhurried drive on secondary roads where I can get a good look at the scenery and make MANY stops to sightsee or have lunch or a coffee. So, provided I could find a charging station within that 200-mile area, I would be fine with a EV vrs an ICE vehicle. In another post it was mentioned that it is possible to have 120 volt charging system. That could be plugged into any small motel in a rural area. A truck-sized EV could have a gasoline generator for emergency charging.
........In 2 years there will be many more charging stations available as people begin to realize ALL the advantages of ELECTRIC vehicles. They are quieter and smoother by their inherent design. They have a lower center of gravity which aids BOTH acceleration and deceleration. They are non-polluting and thus better for the environment of the earth which is in horrible shape due to pollution. In our gasoline ICE culture, many inner cities have so much pollution that it can be smelled and seen. The advantages of EV,s just goes on and on.

[jimjamuser]

My issue is that, if climate change is a global problem, why are U.S. taxpayers being asked to pay for it while China and others are laughing all the way to the bank.
The US has the world's largest economy. We have the greatest military. China has pollution and their economy is sinking. Russia's currency is sinking. We take great pride in being able to lead the world. It helps if the world sees the advantages of capitalism over communism.

[JMintzer]

When I am on a vacation road trip I prefer an unhurried drive on secondary roads where I can get a good look at the scenery and make MANY stops to sightsee or have lunch or a coffee. So, provided I could find a charging station within that 200-mile area, I would be fine with a EV vrs an ICE vehicle. In another post it was mentioned that it is possible to have 120 volt charging system. That could be plugged into any small motel in a rural area. A truck-sized EV could have a gasoline generator for emergency charging.
........In 2 years there will be many more charging stations available as people begin to realize ALL the advantages of ELECTRIC vehicles. They are quieter and smoother by their inherent design. They have a lower center of gravity which aids BOTH acceleration and deceleration. They are non-polluting and thus better for the environment of the earth which is in horrible shape due to pollution. In our gasoline ICE culture, many inner cities have so much pollution that it can be smelled and seen. The advantages of EV,s just goes on and on.

Someone has no idea how Lithium and Cobalt are mined...

[JMintzer]

The US has the world's largest economy. We have the greatest military. China has pollution and their economy is sinking. Russia's currency is sinking. We take great pride in being able to lead the world. It helps if the world sees the advantages of capitalism over communism.

China is in the process of owning the US...

Their economy is growing, faster than ours...

China GDP: Economy shakes off Covid legacy to grow 4.5% in Q1 | CNN Business (https://www.cnn.com/2023/04/17/economy/china-gdp-q1-2023-intl-hnk/index.html)

[Fastskiguy]

So why are atmospheric CO2 levels at a relative historical low???????

According to ice core data CO2 levels are higher than they have been in the last 800,000 years with a rather dramatic increase in the last 200 years.

7. Is the current level of atmospheric CO2 concentration unprecedented in Earth’s history? Answer | Royal Society (https://royalsociety.org/topics-policy/projects/climate-change-evidence-causes/question-7/#:~:text=Measurements%20of%20air%20in%20ice,partic ularly%20remarkable%20%5Bfigure%203%5D).

So I must ask....how do you feel about ice core data?

Joe

[Fastskiguy]

The US has the world's largest economy. We have the greatest military. China has pollution and their economy is sinking. Russia's currency is sinking. We take great pride in being able to lead the world. It helps if the world sees the advantages of capitalism over communism.

Agreed. Plus we are producing almost twice as much per capita vs. china

CO2 Emissions per Capita - Worldometer (https://www.worldometers.info/co2-emissions/co2-emissions-per-capita/)

Look, dumping trillions of pounds of carbon into the atmosphere every year is simply not a good thing. The question is, do we want to be a leader or do we want to follow a country like china and just keep on polluting? When did china become our moral compass?

Joe

[golfing eagles]

According to ice core data CO2 levels are higher than they have been in the last 800,000 years with a rather dramatic increase in the last 200 years.

7. Is the current level of atmospheric CO2 concentration unprecedented in Earth’s history? Answer | Royal Society (https://royalsociety.org/topics-policy/projects/climate-change-evidence-causes/question-7/#:~:text=Measurements%20of%20air%20in%20ice,partic ularly%20remarkable%20%5Bfigure%203%5D).

So I must ask....how do you feel about ice core data?

Joe

Uh, see post 196

[Fastskiguy]

Uh, see post 196

Weird...I didn't see it before I posted.

I couldn't access the graphs but it seems like he is going back millions of years whereas ice cores are only going back 800,000...so maybe it's possible that CO2 levels are higher than in the last 800,000....but apparently much lower than in eras before then?

I guess my take home on post 196 is "if CO2 is going to cause tremendous global warming then why did we have an ice age with CO2 levels 10X higher than current?" I'm not sure what to make of that.

Ever feel like you are either buying into big oil's misinformation or getting duped like sheep by the shadowy global elite?

Joe

[Rainger99]

........In 2 years there will be many more charging stations available as people begin to realize ALL the advantages of ELECTRIC vehicles. They are quieter and smoother by their inherent design. The advantages of EV,s just goes on and on.

Even if they are better, what percentage of American's can afford an EV?? Unless you live and work in very affluent parts of the country (NY, Boston, Cape Cod, the Hamptons, Washington DC, LA, Seattle, and apparently the Villages) the vast majority of people can't buy one.

But if the threat of climate change is truly existential, the government should use our tax dollars to buy one for every American that wants one. If we are all going to die within 10 years unless we all drive EVs, buying one for every American seems like a bargain. We can print the money and worry about paying it back later.

[MrChip72]

Not to call anyone specifically out in this thread. But you have people quoting temperatures and CO2 levels from 300 million years ago at the same time saying that we can't trust the numbers on what the average temperature really was 100 years ago.

Seems like some people were taught that science is mostly based on personal beliefs.

[CoachKandSportsguy]

Not to call anyone specifically out in this thread. But you have people quoting temperatures and CO2 levels from 300 million years ago at the same time saying that we can't trust the numbers on what the average temperature really was 100 years ago.

Seems like some people were taught that science is mostly based on personal beliefs.

Fact: The thermometer with a standardized scale is only 125-150 years old.

That's a lot of extrapolation to take the last 150 years of small amount of data in a few places and extend it over thousands or millions of years. .

However, the one climate change which is human caused is local, and TV is a perfect example. TV was once green with a historical heat absorbing index of 1 (naturally designed) . . now its heat absorbing with asphalt and cement coverings and buildings. These items are heat sinks during the day, and is now way higher than the historical 1 for grasslands. . . This man made activity causes local global warming, and potentially, has gone / may have gone past the tipping point of affecting the entire planet

So building head absorbing structures in hot climates has nothing to do with CO2. . its just the only extrapolation that can go back long enough to scare everyone if you believe in extrapolation. . .

enjoy our man made heat. .

[CoachKandSportsguy]

Fact:

[CoachKandSportsguy]

climate spending on EV is about the same as the ring video showing a tesla crash

article and video embedded
3 injured after Tesla driver loses control, smashes into garage in Los Angeles (https://ktla.com/news/local-news/3-injured-after-tesla-driver-loses-control-smashes-into-garage-in-san-fernando-valley/)

watch the ring video

[CoachKandSportsguy]

When the going gets tough, the data go missing. . . .

"Claudius Ptolemy (A.D. 90–168)

"The Scientist Handbook" first edition

[JMintzer]

I do NOT know about that specific situation. But, logically, we know that gasoline is a very inflammable liquid that can explode in some situations. That has NOT changed since 1900 - the beginnings of ICE cars and trucks. Electric vehicles are in their infancy - their developmental INFANCY. Same way with their batteries. They will be improved greatly until they never catch on fire. Gasoline engines STILL catch on fire EVEN after 125 years of safety development. That's why Electric Vehicles are superior to gas.
......Plus advantages of lower center of gravity, fewer moving parts, no pistons, greater acceleration, and ultimately (after a few years) much better safety and lower maintenance.

Well, one benefit would be to breathe cleaner air and thus live longer. Also, the less noise from an EV is better for quality of life. The batteries in an EV make the vehicle have a lower center of gravity than an IC vehicle. Lower center of gravity allows a vehicle to BRAKE faster........maybe (?) that could save someone's life.

There is a COST to people's lungs when they breathe polluted air. That is a main reason why EVs should be encouraged by the government and society. Oil probably has a better use in medicines and other uses besides ICE fuel.

And that defines the problem to be solved ahead in the future. We as a country and a modern society need to work TOWARD more clean, green energy. I understand that nuclear energy has made great strides in safety. There is much research going on.

Then why won't you purchase an EV?

[jimjamuser]

Agreed. Plus we are producing almost twice as much per capita vs. china

CO2 Emissions per Capita - Worldometer (https://www.worldometers.info/co2-emissions/co2-emissions-per-capita/)

Look, dumping trillions of pounds of carbon into the atmosphere every year is simply not a good thing. The question is, do we want to be a leader or do we want to follow a country like china and just keep on polluting? When did china become our moral compass?

Joe
The US is the moral compass of the world (whether we like it or believe it). The US needs to accept and welcome that honor. To keep it simple, the US needs to constantly do the RIGHT thing in the eyes of the world - as much as possible. That is why each US citizen needs to support clean air and low CO2 pollution production - it gives the world a good example of our doing the RIGHT thing.
.......If a person can not afford a Tesla, maybe those that cut their own lawns (all over the US) can decide to buy an electric lawn mower rather than a gasoline one. Every little bit of lower pollution helps and it sends a message. Electric automobiles are in their infant stage and the price will likely come DOWN and battery technology will improve in only a few years.
......Lower pollution has significant advantages to citizens (even if just for selfish individual reasons). Clean air over the US means better health and longer life through fewer LUNG problems. You would be helping YOURSELF and your next generation - not JUST decreasing Global Warming.
......People that CAN afford a Tesla or other EV will enjoy the benefits such as a quieter engine, lower center of gravity, therefore better acceleration, better braking, better cornering, and lower maintenance. The engine is revolving smoothly in a circle instead of the use of pistons going in an up and down motion and THEN having to be converted to circular motion. The EV also can "pat themselves on the back" for being part of a developing, in infancy, new industry. Which also has the MINOR advantage of preventing the devastation of the earth through excessive CO2 production with the increasing worldwide HEAT problems. July was the highest temperature month recorded worldwide (since the keeping of temperature records).

[jimjamuser]

Weird...I didn't see it before I posted.

I couldn't access the graphs but it seems like he is going back millions of years whereas ice cores are only going back 800,000...so maybe it's possible that CO2 levels are higher than in the last 800,000....but apparently much lower than in eras before then?

I guess my take home on post 196 is "if CO2 is going to cause tremendous global warming then why did we have an ice age with CO2 levels 10X higher than current?" I'm not sure what to make of that.

Ever feel like you are either buying into big oil's misinformation or getting duped like sheep by the shadowy global elite?

Joe
There is an interesting scientific article published recently by S. Rattabvong about Antarctica's ice slowly melting since 1970 at a rate of 13% of its mass per decade. "Sea ice can reflect SOME of the incoming solar radiation back into space." "The loss of Antarctic ice is and will affect the whole earth". "And the effects in Antarctica are approaching a TIPPING point resulting in permanent change." This is a VERY long scientific article, but it relates to worldwide consequences of individual decisions about buying electric or gasoline engine vehicles, lawnmowers, golf cars, and bicycles.

[jimjamuser]

Even if they are better, what percentage of American's can afford an EV?? Unless you live and work in very affluent parts of the country (NY, Boston, Cape Cod, the Hamptons, Washington DC, LA, Seattle, and apparently the Villages) the vast majority of people can't buy one.

But if the threat of climate change is truly existential, the government should use our tax dollars to buy one for every American that wants one. If we are all going to die within 10 years unless we all drive EVs, buying one for every American seems like a bargain. We can print the money and worry about paying it back later.
I agree with the post except for the government printing money part. Right now EVs are priced beyond the means of the average American. A large part of that problem is that EVs are in their INFANCY as far as their technical development goes. They are like car BABIES just learning how to walk. If we could see 20 years into the future, I believe, all problems that we have with EVs will have been resolved. And the INHERENT advantages of EVs will be understood and accepted by most Americans.
.......In 20 years the high volume of sales will bring down the price to the point that the average American can AFFORD one. All new innovations go through a cycle of non-acceptance and then if they are superior, they become widely accepted. How long this will take for EVs is anyone's guess.

[golfing eagles]

There is an interesting scientific article published recently by S. Rattabvong about Antarctica's ice slowly melting since 1970 at a rate of 13% of its mass per decade. "Sea ice can reflect SOME of the incoming solar radiation back into space." "The loss of Antarctic ice is and will affect the whole earth". "And the effects in Antarctica are approaching a TIPPING point resulting in permanent change." This is a VERY long scientific article, but it relates to worldwide consequences of individual decisions about buying electric or gasoline engine vehicles, lawnmowers, golf cars, and bicycles.

13%/year for 5 decades-----65% or about 2/3 of the Antarctic ice is gone???? What are you smoking and where can I get some??????

[Bill14564]

13%/year for 5 decades-----65% or about 2/3 of the Antarctic ice is gone???? What are you smoking and where can I get some??????

Wrong equation. It isn't a loss of 5*.13=.65%, it is a maintenance of (1-.13)^5=50%. So that statement says Antarctica has lost an amount of mass equivalent to 50%.

Other papers agree that Antarctica is losing mass and that the rate is increasing.

However, still other papers counter that while the loss of mass is significant, there is also a gain of mass due to snowfall. Some of those papers claim the gain of mass is larger than the loss of mass which would mean the mass of the ice cover on Antarctica is increasing, not decreasing.

[CoachKandSportsguy]

So the interesting point about the data collection for global warming is the "high temp" versus "the average high temperature".

So the difference is the length of time or number of days at or above a certain temperature which makes the average higher, even though the high temperature never changes. .

point in time versus average. .

so this graph from a Senior Research Associate at the Univ. of Miami Rosenstiel School.

and its the duration and count, not the actual high temp at a point in time, which is causing part of the data communication issues.

[golfing eagles]

Wrong equation. It isn't a loss of 5*.13=.65%, it is a maintenance of (1-.13)^5=50%. So that statement says Antarctica has lost an amount of mass equivalent to 50%.

Other papers agree that Antarctica is losing mass and that the rate is increasing.

However, still other papers counter that while the loss of mass is significant, there is also a gain of mass due to snowfall. Some of those papers claim the gain of mass is larger than the loss of mass which would mean the mass of the ice cover on Antarctica is increasing, not decreasing.

Thank you, I'm aware of the math but I was being lazy. Nonetheless, the claim that Antarctica has lost 50% of its ice since 1970 is completely idiotic. Start moving the decimal point about 2 places.

[JMintzer]

Wrong equation. It isn't a loss of 5*.13=.65%, it is a maintenance of (1-.13)^5=50%. So that statement says Antarctica has lost an amount of mass equivalent to 50%.

Other papers agree that Antarctica is losing mass and that the rate is increasing.

However, still other papers counter that while the loss of mass is significant, there is also a gain of mass due to snowfall. Some of those papers claim the gain of mass is larger than the loss of mass which would mean the mass of the ice cover on Antarctica is increasing, not decreasing.

And there are those papers that state the the decrease in ice is, in part, due to underwater volcanos...

[Pugchief]

The US has the world's largest economy. We have the greatest military. China has pollution and their economy is sinking. Russia's currency is sinking. We take great pride in being able to lead the world. It helps if the world sees the advantages of capitalism over communism.

Interesting take since the same folks who are pushing the Climate Change narrative are the ones who are also pushing Socialism aka Commie-Lite.

[golfing eagles]

Interesting take since the same folks who are pushing the Climate Change narrative are the ones who are also pushing Socialism aka Commie-Lite.

And don't forget "Global wealth re-distribution"----aka I work, you reap the benefits of my labor. Well, they can kiss my grits.

[Fastskiguy]

Even if they are better, what percentage of American's can afford an EV?? .

Figure I'll put some data here, it might help somebody. We got the cheapest Tesla we could get 2 1/2 weeks ago, came in at $42,500 including tax, plates, and whatever else you have to pay on top of the purchase price. We'll get $7500 back on taxes in April so we are at $35,000 plus charger, install, and some floor mats for a grand total of $36,000 all in.

Joe

[golfing eagles]

Figure I'll put some data here, it might help somebody. We got the cheapest Tesla we could get 2 1/2 weeks ago, came in at $42,500 including tax, plates, and whatever else you have to pay on top of the purchase price. We'll get $7500 back on taxes in April so we are at $35,000 plus charger, install, and some floor mats for a grand total of $36,000 all in.

Joe

How much of the $7500 that YOU got back in taxes did I pay?????

[jimjamuser]

13%/year for 5 decades-----65% or about 2/3 of the Antarctic ice is gone???? What are you smoking and where can I get some??????
If you reread what I wrote, it is 13% per decade. Anyone interested could look up the article. I just quoted parts of it. There is a lot of science squeezed into that one article.

[jimjamuser]

13%/year for 5 decades-----65% or about 2/3 of the Antarctic ice is gone???? What are you smoking and where can I get some??????
It is per decade, not per year.

[jimjamuser]

Interesting take since the same folks who are pushing the Climate Change narrative are the ones who are also pushing Socialism aka Commie-Lite.
Scientists are "pushing" the Global Warming narrative because it is their DUTY to Warn the world about their findings. Most scientists are not socialists or communists - they are likely conservative. Where these scientists are on the political spectrum would be irrelevant anyway. Calling them socialists is merely a way to downgrade and avoid their advice, which is, "wake up world (of humans) you are HEATING up and destroying your own planet."

[Pugchief]

Scientists are "pushing" the Global Warming narrative because it is their DUTY to Warn the world about their findings. Most scientists are not socialists or communists - they are likely conservative.

Do you have a source for that ludicrous statement or did you just make it up?

Where these scientists are on the political spectrum would be irrelevant anyway. Calling them socialists...

I wasn't calling any scientists socialists. I was referring to the politicians that are pushing climate change. Those politicians are "coincidentally" the same ones in favor of socialism.

[jimjamuser]

And don't forget "Global wealth re-distribution"----aka I work, you reap the benefits of my labor. Well, they can kiss my grits.
Both the millionaire and the lowest worker will have their lives changed as the earth's temperatures are predicted to HEAT up for the next 7 or 8 years. All economic classes share the same earth so will have their lives somewhat negatively affected by the next 8 years of MAN MADE Global Warming. We need to 1st "face up" to the problem as scientists have and then we can begin to work on the problem.
......We can plant trees here in the US, but the Amazon rainforest is being deforested at too rapid of a rate. I can see that the only solution is for citizens to purchase EVs instead of ICE vehicles. One interesting fact that shows how the US could help.......the share of EV car sales as a % of total car sales for different countries is........China 29%, Europe 21%, and the US LAST at 8%. Europe is buying EVs at a rate almost 3 times the US. It is strange that China is doing a lot of bad things like being the world's greatest polluter (they use a lot of coal). but they have the highest % of EV car sales.
.........It looks like the US is a very poor 3rd in EV car sales. So, right there if we started buying more EVs, it might be enough to turn the CO2 polluting problem around enough to improve US air quality, maybe stop the dying of the ocean coral, and maybe stop the HEAT increases before that dreaded "tipping point" is reached.
......Perhaps the US government should be doing MORE tax incentives to encourage the buying of EVs.

[jimjamuser]

Figure I'll put some data here, it might help somebody. We got the cheapest Tesla we could get 2 1/2 weeks ago, came in at $42,500 including tax, plates, and whatever else you have to pay on top of the purchase price. We'll get $7500 back on taxes in April so we are at $35,000 plus charger, install, and some floor mats for a grand total of $36,000 all in.

Joe
At that price point ($36k), the US should hopefully be buying more Electric Vehicles in the future than just its current 8%. Plug-in hybrids would also be helpful and have many advantages as a stepping stone to full electric.

[jimjamuser]

How much of the $7500 that YOU got back in taxes did I pay?????
When the Federal Government encourages an industry (like EVs) by giving tax incentives it does so to benefit EVERYONE. Some people get a tax refund so that this industry (EVs) helps to prevent pollution (by ICEs) and therefore improves the total AIR quality in the US. This leads to greater US health and longer lifespans in the future. We all desire longer lifespans'
.....The US government is just making a SOLID investment in future improved quality of life for US citizens.

[jimjamuser]

Do you have a source for that ludicrous statement or did you just make it up?



I wasn't calling any scientists socialists. I was referring to the politicians that are pushing climate change. Those politicians are "coincidentally" the same ones in favor of socialism.
The politicians are taking their cues from the scientists. They are NOT "pushing" Climate Change. They do what's best for their US citizens BY listening to and acting on the best advice of the US scientists.

[Pugchief]

Do you have a source for that ludicrous statement or did you just make it up?


The politicians are taking their cues from the scientists. They are NOT "pushing" Climate Change. They do what's best for their US citizens BY listening to and acting on the best advice of the US scientists.

So yeah, you made it up.

And no, the politicians are taking cues from lobbyists and whoever else can keep them in power. And I assure you, that is not scientists.

[JMintzer]

Both the millionaire and the lowest worker will have their lives changed as the earth's temperatures are predicted to HEAT up for the next 7 or 8 years. All economic classes share the same earth so will have their lives somewhat negatively affected by the next 8 years of MAN MADE Global Warming. We need to 1st "face up" to the problem as scientists have and then we can begin to work on the problem.
......We can plant trees here in the US, but the Amazon rainforest is being deforested at too rapid of a rate. I can see that the only solution is for citizens to purchase EVs instead of ICE vehicles. One interesting fact that shows how the US could help.......the share of EV car sales as a % of total car sales for different countries is........China 29%, Europe 21%, and the US LAST at 8%. Europe is buying EVs at a rate almost 3 times the US. It is strange that China is doing a lot of bad things like being the world's greatest polluter (they use a lot of coal). but they have the highest % of EV car sales.
.........It looks like the US is a very poor 3rd in EV car sales. So, right there if we started buying more EVs, it might be enough to turn the CO2 polluting problem around enough to improve US air quality, maybe stop the dying of the ocean coral, and maybe stop the HEAT increases before that dreaded "tipping point" is reached.
......Perhaps the US government should be doing MORE tax incentives to encourage the buying of EVs.

When are you buying YOUR EV?

[JMintzer]

The politicians are taking their cues from the scientists. They are NOT "pushing" Climate Change. They do what's best for their US citizens BY listening to and acting on the best advice of the US scientists.

They are funding the research... If you don't toe the line, you lose that funding...

[Rainger99]

Figure I'll put some data here, it might help somebody. We got the cheapest Tesla we could get 2 1/2 weeks ago, came in at $42,500 including tax, plates, and whatever else you have to pay on top of the purchase price. We'll get $7500 back on taxes in April so we are at $35,000 plus charger, install, and some floor mats for a grand total of $36,000 all in.

$36,000 is an affordable car for people who live in the Villages. I am amazed at how many Teslas I see down here. However, I don't think the Villages is a typical American town. If you get out of the bubble, there is a whole other world out there - much poorer than in the bubble.

I read in the papers last week that most Americans are a $400 unexpected expense away from bankruptcy. In fact, 33% of Americans only have $100 in savings! If you only have $100 in savings, you probably aren't making enough to get a $7,500 tax credit.

Here’s How Much Americans Are Saving in 2023 vs. 2022 (https://finance.yahoo.com/news/americans-savings-stack-2023-vs-140023973.html)

[golfing eagles]

Scientists are "pushing" the Global Warming narrative because it is their DUTY to Warn the world about their findings. Most scientists are not socialists or communists - they are likely conservative. Where these scientists are on the political spectrum would be irrelevant anyway. Calling them socialists is merely a way to downgrade and avoid their advice, which is, "wake up world (of humans) you are HEATING up and destroying your own planet."

Both the millionaire and the lowest worker will have their lives changed as the earth's temperatures are predicted to HEAT up for the next 7 or 8 years. All economic classes share the same earth so will have their lives somewhat negatively affected by the next 8 years of MAN MADE Global Warming. We need to 1st "face up" to the problem as scientists have and then we can begin to work on the problem.
......We can plant trees here in the US, but the Amazon rainforest is being deforested at too rapid of a rate. I can see that the only solution is for citizens to purchase EVs instead of ICE vehicles. One interesting fact that shows how the US could help.......the share of EV car sales as a % of total car sales for different countries is........China 29%, Europe 21%, and the US LAST at 8%. Europe is buying EVs at a rate almost 3 times the US. It is strange that China is doing a lot of bad things like being the world's greatest polluter (they use a lot of coal). but they have the highest % of EV car sales.
.........It looks like the US is a very poor 3rd in EV car sales. So, right there if we started buying more EVs, it might be enough to turn the CO2 polluting problem around enough to improve US air quality, maybe stop the dying of the ocean coral, and maybe stop the HEAT increases before that dreaded "tipping point" is reached.
......Perhaps the US government should be doing MORE tax incentives to encourage the buying of EVs.

At that price point ($36k), the US should hopefully be buying more Electric Vehicles in the future than just its current 8%. Plug-in hybrids would also be helpful and have many advantages as a stepping stone to full electric.

When the Federal Government encourages an industry (like EVs) by giving tax incentives it does so to benefit EVERYONE. Some people get a tax refund so that this industry (EVs) helps to prevent pollution (by ICEs) and therefore improves the total AIR quality in the US. This leads to greater US health and longer lifespans in the future. We all desire longer lifespans'
.....The US government is just making a SOLID investment in future improved quality of life for US citizens.

The politicians are taking their cues from the scientists. They are NOT "pushing" Climate Change. They do what's best for their US citizens BY listening to and acting on the best advice of the US scientists.

To quote Petula Clark from "don't sleep in the subway":

"We've heard it all a million times before"

yada yada yada

You can repeat that garbage ad nauseum, but it still isn't true.

[Bill14564]

To quote Petula Clark from "don't sleep in the subway":

"We've heard it all a million times before"

yada yada yada

You can repeat that garbage ad nauseum, but it still isn't true.

The Ignore List will make your life a whole lot stressful and the thread a whole lot shorter.

[Fastskiguy]

How much of the $7500 that YOU got back in taxes did I pay?????

Don't blame the player, blame the game ;)

don't hate the player, hate the game - Wiktionary, the free dictionary (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/don%27t_hate_the_player,_hate_the_game#:~:text=hop %20culture%3F”)-,Proverb,individuals%20who%20operate%20within%20it ).

But as you suspect....the tax credit definitely had an impact on our decision.

It's a hot seller so far in 2023. It's outpaced by the camry but it's the #2 car in the US so far this year.

The 25 Bestselling Cars, Trucks, and SUVs of 2023 (So Far) (https://www.caranddriver.com/news/g43553191/bestselling-cars-2023/)

Joe

[Fastskiguy]

$36,000 is an affordable car for people who live in the Villages. I am amazed at how many Teslas I see down here. However, I don't think the Villages is a typical American town. If you get out of the bubble, there is a whole other world out there - much poorer than in the bubble.

I read in the papers last week that most Americans are a $400 unexpected expense away from bankruptcy. In fact, 33% of Americans only have $100 in savings! If you only have $100 in savings, you probably aren't making enough to get a $7,500 tax credit.

Here’s How Much Americans Are Saving in 2023 vs. 2022 (https://finance.yahoo.com/news/americans-savings-stack-2023-vs-140023973.html)

I hear you and agree with you. However....the average price for a new car in the US this year is a whopping $48K so all in for $36K is....well....less, right?

After Nearly Two Years, New-Vehicle Transaction Prices Fall Below Sticker Price in March, According to New Data from Kelley Blue Book - Cox Automotive Inc. (https://www.coxautoinc.com/market-insights/kbb-atp-march-2023/#:~:text=The%20average%20transaction%20price%20(AT P,compared%20to%20year%2Dago%20levels).

I want to know who can afford a pickup truck these days!

Joe

[jimjamuser]

So yeah, you made it up.

And no, the politicians are taking cues from lobbyists and whoever else can keep them in power. And I assure you, that is not scientists.
Well, different people have different beliefs in the sincerity of the Federal Government's motives, decisions, and actions. I tend to believe that people get the government that they deserve. Right now the US government is using tax benefits to increase the production and sales of Electric Vehicles. It would be nice if we knew of a survey of what Americans thought of that. What % are satisfied at 8% of new car sales - when Europe is almost 3 times greater. Maybe 60 or 70% on such a survey would say that we NEED to CATCH UP to the Europeans.
.......From my perspective, the US government is doing the RIGHT thing as far as EV stimulation. And I would be happy if they tripled their effort. And I would like to see a survey done as to what America wants for this EV situation.

[jimjamuser]

So yeah, you made it up.

And no, the politicians are taking cues from lobbyists and whoever else can keep them in power. And I assure you, that is not scientists.
I prefer to think that MOST US politicians are doing what's best for America regardless of "lobbyists". Call me part of naive voters......please.

[jimjamuser]

To quote Petula Clark from "don't sleep in the subway":

"We've heard it all a million times before"

yada yada yada

You can repeat that garbage ad nauseum, but it still isn't true.
Well, as they say, "People can agree to disagree". I have no problem with anyone disagreeing with me. I do find it STRANGE when they think that I am being NOT authentic. I think it might lead to better discussions if the motive for opinions were NOT questioned. None of us is getting paid to express our opinions here.

[Fastskiguy]

I prefer to think that MOST US politicians are doing what's best for America regardless of "lobbyists". Call me part of naive voters......please.

Subtle influence is pretty hard to even identify...much less root out. But I'm glad to hear that at least the idea that "most are doing what's best" is refreshing.

Joe

[jimjamuser]

Thank you, I'm aware of the math but I was being lazy. Nonetheless, the claim that Antarctica has lost 50% of its ice since 1970 is completely idiotic. Start moving the decimal point about 2 places.
I am just going by that article that I gave the author of. He said 13% per decade, so that would mean that Antarctica has lost about 50% of its ice mass since 1970. We have ALL seen videos of large parts of the ice mass calving off into the water. There is some logic to the large loss of sea ice - around the world sea level has increased rapidly in the last 10 years. The last year recorded was some VERY large amount. If I remember correctly it was 1/2 of an inch rise (don't hold me to that, I don't want to try to look it up again). And Antarctica melting away and losing mass is also consistent with the increased CO2 in the ocean killing coral. And the CO2 in the upper atmosphere reflecting HEAT back to Earth.
......The above scientific knowledge is HELPFUL for US citizens thinking about buying an Electric Vehicle such as a car, truck, golf car, or even bicycle vrs a vehicle with an Internal Combustion Engine. 8 % of US new car sales is Electrical. In Europe it is 21%. And in China it is 29%. So the conclusion is that the US needs to get more modern and become truly the world leader in this NEW technology.

[Pugchief]

So yeah, you made it up.

And no, the politicians are taking cues from lobbyists and whoever else can keep them in power. And I assure you, that is not scientists.

I do find it STRANGE when they think that I am being NOT authentic. I think it might lead to better discussions if the motive for opinions were NOT questioned. None of us is getting paid to express our opinions here.

Except you didn't express an opinion, you posted a statement of 'fact' that you made up. If you want people to take you seriously, don't present data that you don't/can't provide a source for.

[Rainger99]

I hear you and agree with you. However....the average price for a new car in the US this year is a whopping $48K so all in for $36K is....well....less, right?

Even if your numbers are correct, most Americans can't afford a new car. And if fewer than 50% of Americans can afford an EV, it won't solve the problem. But, if we are all going to die in a few years unless we all drive EVs, the government should buy everyone a new EV. That is far less costly than the destruction of mankind.

If the threat is as serious as some people say, we should be doing everything to stop climate change. If we all knew that, unless we took drastic measures, we were going to die in 2030 because of climate change, I think all of us would be willing to sell our homes and cars and move into a small apartment and just use our golf carts. We would be willing to stop traveling and we would be willing to stop eating meat. When the Davos crowd gives up their private planes and embrace vegetarianism, I will know that it is serious. Until then, it is so much hot air.

Only The Rich (Or Fools) Can Afford To Buy New Cars Today (https://www.financialsamurai.com/only-the-rich-or-fools-can-afford-to-buy-new-cars-today/)

[bcsnave]

I am just going by that article that I gave the author of. He said 13% per decade, so that would mean that Antarctica has lost about 50% of its ice mass since 1970. We have ALL seen videos of large parts of the ice mass calving off into the water. There is some logic to the large loss of sea ice - around the world sea level has increased rapidly in the last 10 years. The last year recorded was some VERY large amount. If I remember correctly it was 1/2 of an inch rise (don't hold me to that, I don't want to try to look it up again). And Antarctica melting away and losing mass is also consistent with the increased CO2 in the ocean killing coral. And the CO2 in the upper atmosphere reflecting HEAT back to Earth.
......The above scientific knowledge is HELPFUL for US citizens thinking about buying an Electric Vehicle such as a car, truck, golf car, or even bicycle vrs a vehicle with an Internal Combustion Engine. 8 % of US new car sales is Electrical. In Europe it is 21%. And in China it is 29%. So the conclusion is that the US needs to get more modern and become truly the world leader in this NEW technology.

Heck, I will go with that logic. ..the population growth and life expectancy in the United States since 1970 has exploded. The above knowledge is HELPFUL for US citizens thinking about buying an Electric Vehicle such as a car, truck, golf car, or even bicycle. All of these items contribute to the desecration of the planet via. pollution, mining, and consumption by the average American consumer. Modern medical just exacerbates this issue by extending the lives of these consumers. So the conclusion is that the US needs to get more modern and become truly the world leader in this and make certain you sign a DNR and do NOT go in for any lifesaving procedures. Do your part, don't virtue signal, DON'T BE THAT GUY that isn't willing to sacrifice for what you believe in. :wave:

[JMintzer]

Well, different people have different beliefs in the sincerity of the Federal Government's motives, decisions, and actions. I tend to believe that people get the government that they deserve. Right now the US government is using tax benefits to increase the production and sales of Electric Vehicles. It would be nice if we knew of a survey of what Americans thought of that. What % are satisfied at 8% of new car sales - when Europe is almost 3 times greater. Maybe 60 or 70% on such a survey would say that we NEED to CATCH UP to the Europeans.
.......From my perspective, the US government is doing the RIGHT thing as far as EV stimulation. And I would be happy if they tripled their effort. And I would like to see a survey done as to what America wants for this EV situation.

Good thing "the Europeans" aren't rioting in the streets because they're so happy with their government...

Wait, What?

[JMintzer]

Well, as they say, "People can agree to disagree". I have no problem with anyone disagreeing with me. I do find it STRANGE when they think that I am being NOT authentic. I think it might lead to better discussions if the motive for opinions were NOT questioned. None of us is getting paid to express our opinions here.

Oh, I believe you're being "authentic...

And that's what terrifies me...

[jimjamuser]

Even if your numbers are correct, most Americans can't afford a new car. And if fewer than 50% of Americans can afford an EV, it won't solve the problem. But, if we are all going to die in a few years unless we all drive EVs, the government should buy everyone a new EV. That is far less costly than the destruction of mankind.

If the threat is as serious as some people say, we should be doing everything to stop climate change. If we all knew that, unless we took drastic measures, we were going to die in 2030 because of climate change, I think all of us would be willing to sell our homes and cars and move into a small apartment and just use our golf carts. We would be willing to stop traveling and we would be willing to stop eating meat. When the Davos crowd gives up their private planes and embrace vegetarianism, I will know that it is serious. Until then, it is so much hot air.

Only The Rich (Or Fools) Can Afford To Buy New Cars Today (https://www.financialsamurai.com/only-the-rich-or-fools-can-afford-to-buy-new-cars-today/)
I seem to sense a humorous exaggeration about all of us dying from Global Warming in 2030. The last information that I read on the subject said that for the next 7 or 8 years, we will have increasing worldwide HEAT. To me, that does NOT mean the end of the human species. But, it is a CHANGE that will produce many bad situations. This year July was the HOTTEST on record. Then (if the predictions of SCIENTISTS are correct) July 2024 will be THEN the hottest on record. Meanwhile, in the oceans, reef coral may be in the process of COMPLETELY dying off. People today in many parts of the US are suffering from HEAT related physical stress and mental stress. IN 2030, if things do NOT change all of our problems will be intensified.
........The source of the problem is the internal combustion engine vehicles. So, the answer is to eliminate as many as possible. The US is currently buying EVs at a rate of 8% of car sales. Europe is at 21%. The US needs to get to about 30% EV sales. That may be enough to start producing less CO2 and return the Climate back to normal. We also have to worry about a "tipping point" which some scientists talk about. It is important that the average US person becomes motivated by this problem.