Common sense prevails!

[Rocksnap]

I’m liking Florida more and more.
Floridas AG is telling law enforcement that open carry is the law of the land, after the state supreme court decision last week, stemming from a state lower court ruling that the states open carry ban was unconstitutional.
Of course there are common sense restrictions on where you cannot open carry. But this is a step in the right direction.
Side note. It’s been 17,396 days of a loaded firearm in my dwelling. Another successful day of zero discharges. Accidental or otherwise. It’s a win win!
Florida'''s open carry ban overturned: Sheriffs laud decision but caution gun owners to know these restrictions | FOX 35 Orlando (https://www.fox35orlando.com/news/floridas-open-carry-ban-overturned-sheriffs-laud-decision-caution-gun-owners-know-restrictions)

[Rango]

Open carry may be legal, but don’t I think it’s a good strategy

[Joecooool418]

There won't be a business in the Villages that will allow you to open carry in their establishment and I'm 100% positive they won't allow it on any Villages property.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

There won't be a business in the Villages that will allow you to open carry in their establishment and I'm 100% positive they won't allow it on any Villages property.

It's also not legal in any government building. In fact, weapons of any kind are not permitted in any government building. I can't imagine why, if weapons are such wonderful things and we should all proudly exercise our 2nd amendment rights.

[jimhoward]

I don't own a gun. But, I prefer to see open carry than concealed carry. And concealed carry is already legal in Florida.

[Bill14564]

Common sense says if a gun is safe in your home then keep it there.

Common sense says if a country has a problem with gun crime then making guns even more ubiquitous is a step in the wrong direction.

[Pondboy]

Keep it at home. To me, open carry makes me think that person is trying to make up for inadequacies elsewhere.

[charles_2000]

As a native Texan that moved here recently, that recently got open carry. I think I saw one person open carry since it started in Texas.

I don't think it makes much sense to open carry vs concealed, you seem to just lose any tactical advantage, and could make yourself a target.

[jimhoward]

One drawback of open carry (to those more afraid of lawful gun carriers than criminals) is that enables larger weapons to be carried. You can only fit a small pistol in your "thunderwear" (I just learned that was a thing).

I see Instagram posts of people videoing themselves carrying assault rifles in public because they can and to "stress test" their second amendment rights. Seems dangerous.

[Taltarzac725]

There won't be a business in the Villages that will allow you to open carry in their establishment and I'm 100% positive they won't allow it on any Villages property.

Nice to hear that. You cannot figure out if the person carrying a weapon in public is of sound mind or even body.


I recall walking in Reno, Nevada as a teen with two of my friends and we were all carrying various long guns. We were walking towards Rattlesnake Mountain on the outskirts of the city near farms. A man in a car stopped in front of us and asked if we wanted a ride. We said yes and he took as almost up to the mountain. I am not sure anyone would pick up three teens walking with long guns now. Unless they knew the boys.


The windows of the car had to be kept open for all of us to fit into the car along with the weapons.


It cracks me up how many times "common sense" gets thrown around when if you look at the situation as what a reasonable person would do in that predicament and it is the exact opposite of what the phrase thrower meant.

[Mrprez]

If you aren’t legally qualified to conceal carry then you aren’t allowed to open carry. Same restriction applies.

[fdpaq0580]

Keep it at home. To me, open carry makes me think that person is trying to make up for inadequacies elsewhere.

So my bazooka doesn't impress you?

[ElDiabloJoe]

I'm'a gonna see if I can get this posted before the thread gets locked down. Concealed carry is a wonderful thing. Open carry is a foolish, stupid thing.

When you open carry, *EVERY* one knows you are armed. You not only make people uncomfortable around you, you have told every bad guy about to rob a place that they need to shoot you in the head before they do so. You will always be the very first target, and there are many people (cops and convicts) who are quite efficient at coming up behind you and removing your weapon from your holster before you realize they are behind you doing so.

Even if you're using a Level III holster (if you even know what that is), still quite doable to remove your weapon from your person. The morons I've seen in Tennessee walking around with a revolver in a 0-level holster that bends away and the weapon butt is angled 3 inches out and away from their waist never cease to astound me.

Do yourself a favor and restrict yourself to concealed carry, IF you are skilled, trained, practice, and experienced. Otherwise leave it secured at home.

Sorry, I'm a lifelong proponent of firearms and a full career inner-city street cop. Open carry is stupid.

[Taltarzac725]

I'm'a gonna see if I can get this posted before the thread gets locked down. Concealed carry is a wonderful thing. Open carry is a foolish, stupid thing.

When you open carry, *EVERY* one knows you are armed. You not only make people uncomfortable around you, you have told every bad guy about to rob a place that they need to shoot you in the head before they do so. You will always be the very first target, and there are many people (cops and convicts) who are quite efficient at coming up behind you and removing your weapon from your holster before you realize they are behind you doing so.

Even if you're using a Level III holster (if you even know what that is), still quite doable to remove your weapon from your person. The morons I've seen in Tennessee walking around with a revolver in a 0-level holster that bends away and the weapon butt is angled 3 inches out and away from their waist never cease to astound me.

Do yourself a favor and restrict yourself to concealed carry, IF you are skilled, trained, practice, and experienced. Otherwise leave it secured at home.

Sorry, I'm a lifelong proponent of firearms and a full career inner-city street cop. Open carry is stupid.

Now that sounds reasonable. And written with a lot of common sense and based on real life experience.

[Kenswing]

Why anyone would open carry in an urban environment is beyond me. You remove one of your greatest advantages, the element of surprise. Another strong point for not open carrying is most of the residents here aren’t exactly spring chickens. All someone with bad intentions has to do is follow you out to the parking lot, knock you down or out and relieve you of your weapon.
Now if I’m out hiking or hunting I might open carry. But never in a crowded environment where you have people around you in 360 degrees.

[Topspinmo]

Open carry make no sense to me. If I was to carry I wouldn’t be broadcasting it.

[Taltarzac725]

Open carry make no sense to me. If I was carry I wouldn’t be broadcasting it.

I suppose if this were the Old West it might make sense. But I get the impression that they usually took the guns off the drunken cowboys so they did not shoot up the town.

[Ray Greene]

Whats next? Dueling or gunfights at the polo grounds.
Or posses riding through the villages fund ablaze!!
Let’s move forward into the 1800’s!!!

[raananh]

Common sense says if a gun is safe in your home then keep it there.

Common sense says if a country has a problem with gun crime then making guns even more ubiquitous is a step in the wrong direction.

Common sense says that if people are armed, then criminals will have second thoughts about doing crime or using their guns. Am I right?

[raananh]

I feel much more safe when armed people, open carry or not, are next to me. No chance a criminal will try anything.

[Taltarzac725]

Common sense says that if people are armed, then criminals will have second thoughts about doing crime or using their guns. Am I right?

The problem with that is that the bad guys do not wear black hats. Nor did the good ones wear white ones.


Crime in the Villages is very low probably because of how many weapons Villagers have in the homes and not on the streets.

[Bill14564]

Common sense says that if people are armed, then criminals will have second thoughts about doing crime or using their guns. Am I right?

I feel much more safe when armed people, open carry or not, are next to me. No chance a criminal will try anything.

You're putting your thoughts into a criminal's head - it doesn't work that way. Someone who would be a criminal doesn't see things the same way you do.

Does a weapon on the hip of a senior citizen look like a deterrent or an opportunity?
Does a weapon make an individual look tough and a hard target or does it make them look overconfident and worth challenging?

[Switter]

As a native Texan that moved here recently, that recently got open carry. I think I saw one person open carry since it started in Texas.

I don't think it makes much sense to open carry vs concealed, you seem to just lose any tactical advantage, and could make yourself a target.

I would agree. The only time open carry is nice is if you're out hunting (which was already legal) or in an area where you might encounter wild animals, like in Ocala National forest. Then I prefer open carry. The rest of the time I would always conceal.

[Bwanajim]

To me open carry is pretty dumb. That just gives the bad guy warning. And maybe he'll just shoot you instead of trying to rob you.
I never want anyone to know that I'm carrying. I want the element of surprise on my side.

[maggie1]

Common sense says that if people are armed, then criminals will have second thoughts about doing crime or using their guns. Am I right?

This could become a slippery slope for those who will now purchase a firearm and end up shooting themselves or a family member by accident. Don't forget to contact your insurance agent for an add-on to your policy, because if you accidentally shoot someone who didn't deserve to be killed, or even if they did, you'll be in a heap of trouble financially.

Don't get me wrong, I am not against gun ownership, but unless there is training involved where the gun owner is placed under stress, the heart is beating at 100+ bpm, there's shortness of breath, and the sweat is running down your face, then it's best not to carry a firearm. Just regular target practice won't get it.

The average person might think they know what to do when faced with a life-and-death situation involving a firearm, but believe me, they don't. However, I also understand the axiom of it being better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6. Lots of things to think about, but training needs to be a big part of the equation before strapping on.

[crash]

I’m liking Florida more and more.
Floridas AG is telling law enforcement that open carry is the law of the land, after the state supreme court decision last week, stemming from a state lower court ruling that the states open carry ban was unconstitutional.
Of course there are common sense restrictions on where you cannot open carry. But this is a step in the right direction.
Side note. It’s been 17,396 days of a loaded firearm in my dwelling. Another successful day of zero discharges. Accidental or otherwise. It’s a win win!
Florida'''s open carry ban overturned: Sheriffs laud decision but caution gun owners to know these restrictions | FOX 35 Orlando (https://www.fox35orlando.com/news/floridas-open-carry-ban-overturned-sheriffs-laud-decision-caution-gun-owners-know-restrictions)

Open carry is the exact opposite of common sense.

[Switter]

Don't get me wrong, I am not against gun ownership, but unless there is training involved where the gun owner is placed under stress, the heart is beating at 100+ bpm, there's shortness of breath, and the sweat is running down your face, then it's best not to carry a firearm. Just regular target practice won't get it.
.

I don't think you going to be able to replicate that kind of stress in training very well.

What is more important is training and repetition. Someone who is going to conceal or open carry should be at the range at least once a month. Handling a firearm should become somewhat instinctive, all the while remembering the four rules of handling any firearm: every gun is a loaded gun, never point your gun at something you're not willing to destroy, never put your finger on the trigger until you're ready to pull it, and always know what's beyond your target. And I always recommend taking a basic pistol class every couple years. Not everything with handling a handgun is obvious and doing it every couple years let someone evaluate that you're not getting sloppy.

You should also exercise a heightened sense of situational awareness when you're carrying.

The onus is on those of us who do carry to do so responsibly.

[MandoMan]

I’m liking Florida more and more.
Floridas AG is telling law enforcement that open carry is the law of the land, after the state supreme court decision last week, stemming from a state lower court ruling that the states open carry ban was unconstitutional.
Of course there are common sense restrictions on where you cannot open carry. But this is a step in the right direction.
Side note. It’s been 17,396 days of a loaded firearm in my dwelling. Another successful day of zero discharges. Accidental or otherwise. It’s a win win!
Florida'''s open carry ban overturned: Sheriffs laud decision but caution gun owners to know these restrictions | FOX 35 Orlando (https://www.fox35orlando.com/news/floridas-open-carry-ban-overturned-sheriffs-laud-decision-caution-gun-owners-know-restrictions)

“Utah is an open carry state, allowing adults 21 and older to openly or concealed carry a firearm without a permit if they can lawfully possess a firearm. This law, which went into effect in 2021, is known as constitutional carry. While a permit is no longer required for carrying a firearm for personal use, Utah does offer a permit for those who wish to carry in other states that have reciprocity agreements.”

[Ptmcbriz]

Concealed carry has several advantages. Open carry has no advantages compared to concealed carry. Thereby, there is only one reason to open carry vs concealed. Ego. That aspect immediately makes the person irresponsible since you know they had the choice to go the concealed route and didn’t choose it. By default, if I see an open carry in my vicinity, I would immediately be walking in the opposite direction. Can’t trust their judgment skills.

[Pennyt]

Common sense says that if people are armed, then criminals will have second thoughts about doing crime or using their guns. Am I right?

To think that criminals have a second thought about disarming elderly people with firearms is laughable. Crime isn't down in The Villages because "everyone" is armed. Crime is not high in The Villages because younger, lower income people don't live here and therefore there is not as much need for crime. Has nothing to do with the armed population. I heard a policeman say once that the worst thing you can do in a public place is draw a weapon during a crime - when the police arrive all they see are people holding weapons and they don't know by looking who is the criminal. You could easily be shot for holding a weapon. Too many people have been killed in shootings in America due to our glorification of guns.

[airstreamingypsy]

If open carry made people invincible, LEOs would never be shot. It's a fantasy to think you are Wyatt Earp and will get the bad guys. I am happy to see so many common sense responses to this post, so many seeing the foolishness of open carry.

[Road-Runner]

When we originally moved to Florida 7 years ago, I was working in downtown Jacksonville. Everyone there was still talking about a news story that just happened where someone concealed carrying in a restaurant moved in such a way to pull up his shirt temporarily exposing his inside the waste pistol to another patron. For this he was arrested and charged with a weapons related felony since there was no open carry. This was ludicrous at the time but Jacksonville's overzealous anti-gun DA prosecuted the poor guy regardless.

[Taltarzac725]

When we originally moved to Florida 7 years ago, I was working in downtown Jacksonville. Everyone there was still talking about a news story that just happened where someone concealed carrying in a restaurant moved in such a way to pull up his shirt temporarily exposing his inside the waist pistol to another patron. For this he was arrested and charged with a weapons related felony since there was no open carry. This was ludicrous at the time but Jacksonville's overzealous anti-gun DA prosecuted the poor guy regardless.


That does defy any sense of fair play.

[Taltarzac725]

What really bothers me is why would anyone want to be in a situation where you take another person's life? I can understand protecting others' and your life but I get an impression that some people are just itching to be in a gunfight.


I did meet a lady who had a concealed gun license but she had been the victim of domestic violence and was afraid her ex would track her down. Lots of violence is related to domestic abuse situations. And these are very tricky even for professionals in law enforcement. State Resources: Florida | WomensLaw.org Attention Required! | Cloudflare (https://share.google/arJG1eHGrAJNbQuaG)

[bumpa]

I’m liking Florida more and more.
Floridas AG is telling law enforcement that open carry is the law of the land, after the state supreme court decision last week, stemming from a state lower court ruling that the states open carry ban was unconstitutional.
Of course there are common sense restrictions on where you cannot open carry. But this is a step in the right direction.
Side note. It’s been 17,396 days of a loaded firearm in my dwelling. Another successful day of zero discharges. Accidental or otherwise. It’s a win win!
Florida'''s open carry ban overturned: Sheriffs laud decision but caution gun owners to know these restrictions | FOX 35 Orlando (https://www.fox35orlando.com/news/floridas-open-carry-ban-overturned-sheriffs-laud-decision-caution-gun-owners-know-restrictions)

So you open carry in your own house?

[Rocksnap]

Common sense says if a gun is safe in your home then keep it there.

Common sense says if a country has a problem with gun crime then making guns even more ubiquitous is a step in the wrong direction.
Common sense says follow the DATA. Where guns are legal, especially open carry, crime drops dramatically. Data can be your friend.

[Taltarzac725]

Common sense says follow the DATA. Where guns are legal, especially open carry, crime drops dramatically. Data can be your friend.

Effects of Concealed-Carry Laws on Violent Crime | RAND (https://share.google/4EZew2Xs9yAYf7Xme)

Seems to be inconclusive on those statistics.

[Bill14564]

Common sense says follow the DATA. Where guns are legal, especially open carry, crime drops dramatically. Data can be your friend.

Critical thinking is important too, as well as understanding that correlation does not prove causation.

Guns are illegal in high crime areas.
Guns are legal in low crime areas.
Open carry laws are most common in low crime areas.

Guns and open carry laws do not make areas safer; safer areas make open carry laws and guns possible.

[vintageogauge]

I wonder if you can carry in the high rise Wildwood parking garage, especially when the clocks are changed and it get's dark in there.

[kingofbeer]

I’m liking Florida more and more.
Floridas AG is telling law enforcement that open carry is the law of the land, after the state supreme court decision last week, stemming from a state lower court ruling that the states open carry ban was unconstitutional.
Of course there are common sense restrictions on where you cannot open carry. But this is a step in the right direction.
Side note. It’s been 17,396 days of a loaded firearm in my dwelling. Another successful day of zero discharges. Accidental or otherwise. It’s a win win!
Florida'''s open carry ban overturned: Sheriffs laud decision but caution gun owners to know these restrictions | FOX 35 Orlando (https://www.fox35orlando.com/news/floridas-open-carry-ban-overturned-sheriffs-laud-decision-caution-gun-owners-know-restrictions)
Win win for who? Can someone carry an unconcealed gun into McDonalds and order a Big Mac? If somone carries an unconcealed gun, how do you know they are not there to rob the establishment? Welcome to Floriduh!

[kingofbeer]

It's also not legal in any government building. In fact, weapons of any kind are not permitted in any government building. I can't imagine why, if weapons are such wonderful things and we should all proudly exercise our 2nd amendment rights.
How come government buildings restrict the 2nd ammendment? Open carry is allowed in the supermarket.... whoops!

[Taltarzac725]

Win win for who? Can someone carry an unconcealed gun into McDonalds and order a Big Mac? If somone carries an unconcealed gun, how do you know they are not there to rob the establishment? Welcome to Floriduh!

It is not like bad guys wear black hats.

[Slainte]

Open carry is asking for trouble. It just takes two guys (or one) to slam you against a wall & take your gun from you.

[JMintzer]

The problem with that is that the bad guys do not wear black hats. Nor did the good ones wear white ones.


Crime in the Villages is very low probably because of how many weapons Villagers have in the homes and not on the streets.

You have no idea how many weapons are "on the streets", since until now, open carry was illegal and they only carried concealed...

[Pugchief]

Win win for who? Can someone carry an unconcealed gun into McDonalds and order a Big Mac? If somone carries an unconcealed gun, how do you know they are not there to rob the establishment? Welcome to Floriduh!

Can someone carry a concealed gun into McDonalds and order a Big Mac? If someone carries a concealed gun, how do you know they are not there to rob the establishment?

Welcome to just TOTVDuh.

[JMintzer]

You're putting your thoughts into a criminal's head - it doesn't work that way. Someone who would be a criminal doesn't see things the same way you do.

Does a weapon on the hip of a senior citizen look like a deterrent or an opportunity?
Does a weapon make an individual look tough and a hard target or does it make them look overconfident and worth challenging?

And you're also putting thoughts into a criminal's head - it doesn't work that way...

[JMintzer]

This could become a slippery slope for those who will now purchase a firearm and end up shooting themselves or a family member by accident. Don't forget to contact your insurance agent for an add-on to your policy, because if you accidentally shoot someone who didn't deserve to be killed, or even if they did, you'll be in a heap of trouble financially.

Don't get me wrong, I am not against gun ownership, but unless there is training involved where the gun owner is placed under stress, the heart is beating at 100+ bpm, there's shortness of breath, and the sweat is running down your face, then it's best not to carry a firearm. Just regular target practice won't get it.

The average person might think they know what to do when faced with a life-and-death situation involving a firearm, but believe me, they don't. However, I also understand the axiom of it being better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6. Lots of things to think about, but training needs to be a big part of the equation before strapping on.

Why would this change in the law send anyone down your imaginary "slippery slope"? Why would this change in the law entice anyone to purchase a firearm if they didn't already have one? Permitless concealed carry was already legal...

[JMintzer]

Concealed carry has several advantages. Open carry has no advantages compared to concealed carry. Thereby, there is only one reason to open carry vs concealed. Ego. That aspect immediately makes the person irresponsible since you know they had the choice to go the concealed route and didn’t choose it. By default, if I see an open carry in my vicinity, I would immediately be walking in the opposite direction. Can’t trust their judgment skills.

That may be your own ego talking, projecting your thoughts on others.

Concealed carry can be quite uncomfortable. Finding the correct/comfortable holster is a challenge. For some, open carry is better.

[cherylncliff]

I’m liking Florida more and more.
Floridas AG is telling law enforcement that open carry is the law of the land, after the state supreme court decision last week, stemming from a state lower court ruling that the states open carry ban was unconstitutional.
Of course there are common sense restrictions on where you cannot open carry. But this is a step in the right direction.
Side note. It’s been 17,396 days of a loaded firearm in my dwelling. Another successful day of zero discharges. Accidental or otherwise. It’s a win win!
Florida'''s open carry ban overturned: Sheriffs laud decision but caution gun owners to know these restrictions | FOX 35 Orlando (https://www.fox35orlando.com/news/floridas-open-carry-ban-overturned-sheriffs-laud-decision-caution-gun-owners-know-restrictions)


Common sense would be leave your guns at home in a gun safe unless you are going to the range

[kcrazorbackfan]

Open carry may be legal, but don’t I think it’s a good strategy

Oh, I think it’s a deterrent for anyone to try something stupid.

[JMintzer]

To think that criminals have a second thought about disarming elderly people with firearms is laughable. Crime isn't down in The Villages because "everyone" is armed. Crime is not high in The Villages because younger, lower income people don't live here and therefore there is not as much need for crime. Has nothing to do with the armed population. I heard a policeman say once that the worst thing you can do in a public place is draw a weapon during a crime - when the police arrive all they see are people holding weapons and they don't know by looking who is the criminal. You could easily be shot for holding a weapon. Too many people have been killed in shootings in America due to our glorification of guns.

Unfortunately, you have no idea as to what actual training teaches those who choose to carry a weapon. None of what you said was accurate.

[JMintzer]

If open carry made people invincible, LEOs would never be shot. It's a fantasy to think you are Wyatt Earp and will get the bad guys. I am happy to see so many common sense responses to this post, so many seeing the foolishness of open carry.

Who, on this thread made any such claim?

[Taltarzac725]

Oh, I think it’s a deterrent for anyone to try something stupid.

Like walking into a crowded restaurant with a gun on your hip? Scare people into getting a table faster?

[JMintzer]

When we originally moved to Florida 7 years ago, I was working in downtown Jacksonville. Everyone there was still talking about a news story that just happened where someone concealed carrying in a restaurant moved in such a way to pull up his shirt temporarily exposing his inside the waste pistol to another patron. For this he was arrested and charged with a weapons related felony since there was no open carry. This was ludicrous at the time but Jacksonville's overzealous anti-gun DA prosecuted the poor guy regardless.

What was the outcome of said prosecution?

[JMintzer]

What really bothers me is why would anyone want to be in a situation where you take another person's life? I can understand protecting others' and your life but I get an impression that some people are just itching to be in a gunfight.

That may just be your own thoughts of what you would do if armed...

Personally, I found that I'm a much calmer person when carrying. The LAST thing I want to do is get involved in a confrontation...

I did meet a lady who had a concealed gun license but she had been the victim of domestic violence and was afraid her ex would track her down. Lots of violence is related to domestic abuse situations. And these are very tricky even for professionals in law enforcement. State Resources: Florida | WomensLaw.org Attention Required! | Cloudflare (https://share.google/arJG1eHGrAJNbQuaG)

Was she "itching to be in a gunfight"?

[JMintzer]

Effects of Concealed-Carry Laws on Violent Crime | RAND (https://share.google/4EZew2Xs9yAYf7Xme)

Seems to be inconclusive on those statistics.

Did we read the same report?

[JMintzer]

Critical thinking is important too, as well as understanding that correlation does not prove causation.

Guns are illegal in high crime areas.
Guns are legal in low crime areas.
Open carry laws are most common in low crime areas.

Guns and open carry laws do not make areas safer; safer areas make open carry laws and guns possible.

Correlation does not prove causation...

[JMintzer]

Win win for who? Can someone carry an unconcealed gun into McDonalds and order a Big Mac? If somone carries an unconcealed gun, how do you know they are not there to rob the establishment? Welcome to Floriduh!

How do you know that ANYBODY walking into McDonalds isn't there to rob the establishment?

[JMintzer]

How come government buildings restrict the 2nd ammendment? Open carry is allowed in the supermarket.... whoops!

Because they're hypocrites?

[Bill14564]

Unfortunately, you have no idea as to what actual training teaches those who choose to carry a weapon. None of what you said was accurate.

Actual training is no longer required to carry in Florida. As for the statement, it all looks quite accurate.

[JMintzer]

Common sense would be leave your guns at home in a gun safe unless you are going to the range

Yeah, I'll politely disagree... I've visited parts of Wildwood, Leesburg and Orlando where I was glad that I was armed. Just common sense...

[Bill14564]

Who, on this thread made any such claim?

If they aren't carrying due to ego (you objected to that previously) and they aren't carrying so a good guy with a gun can stop a bad guy with a gun (this objection) then is it just a fashion statement?

[Topspinmo]

Common sense says that if people are armed, then criminals will have second thoughts about doing crime or using their guns. Am I right?


Or they will be first ones shot? :oops:

[Bill14564]

Correlation does not prove causation...

Exactly, that's why I included the statement in the post you quoted.

[JMintzer]

Like walking into a crowded restaurant with a gun on your hip? Scare people into getting a table faster?

Sorry, your feelings are not my concern...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlDWzN6TW5Y&t=1s

Fast forward to 2:10 for the appropriate part (or watch the whole thing if you want a laugh!)

[JMintzer]

Actual training is no longer required to carry in Florida. As for the statement, it all looks quite accurate.

Where did I say it -was- required? I feel it -is- a VERY good idea, and I've taken multiple courses in self defense and defensive shooting.

As to the statement, "ONE COP" made a comment? A comment that doesn't reflect the reality of what typically happens?

[JMintzer]

If they aren't carrying due to ego (you objected to that previously) and they aren't carrying so a good guy with a gun can stop a bad guy with a gun (this objection) then is it just a fashion statement?

Self defense... Which is why the VAST majority of people choose to carry a weapon.

Contrary to the opinion of several people on this thread, they aren't trying to live out some Charles Bronson vigilante fantasy...

[JMintzer]

Exactly, that's why I included the statement in the post you quoted.

And why I included it in my response to you... Funny how that comes back to bite you...

[Pugchief]

Personally, I found that I'm a much calmer person when carrying.
Yep.

The LAST thing I want to do is get involved in a confrontation...


Also yep. The first thing they teach you in CCW class is not to put yourself in a situation where you might need to use your weapon, bc the last thig you want to do is actually use it. Wise words.

[Pugchief]

Self defense... Which is why the VAST majority of people choose to carry a weapon.

Of course.

Contrary to the opinion of several people on this thread, they aren't trying to live out some Charles Bronson vigilante fantasy...

That's bc the gun control crowd is living in their fantasy world where legal, registered, CCW gun owners are committing crimes and mass shootings. Quite the opposite; the illegal, unregistered crowd is who you need to be worried about.

[bmcgowan13]

[QUOTE=Road-Runner;2461550Everyone there was still talking about a news story that just happened where someone concealed carrying in a restaurant moved in such a way to pull up his shirt temporarily exposing his inside the waste pistol to another patron. For this he was arrested and charged with a weapons related felony since there was no open carry. This was ludicrous at the time but Jacksonville's overzealous anti-gun DA prosecuted the poor guy regardless.[/QUOTE]

Something fishy here...

790.053 Open carrying of weapons.—
(1) Except as otherwise provided by law and in subsection (2), it is unlawful for any person to openly carry on or about his or her person any firearm or electric weapon or device. It is not a violation of this section for a person who carries a concealed firearm as authorized in s. 790.01(1) to briefly and openly display the firearm to the ordinary sight of another person, unless the firearm is intentionally displayed in an angry or threatening manner, not in necessary self-defense.

Sounds like he was possibly carrying concealed but did not have a permit.

I've always found it odd that every gun store, gun show, and shooting range I have ever been to in Florida has a sign on the front door...

"While we respect the 2nd amendment we kindly ask that no loaded weapons are brought into the building."

But when Florida Hospital, Disney, my church, my dentist or a local restaurant asks for that same courtesy people lose their minds.

go figure...

[Taltarzac725]

Of course.



That's bc the gun control crowd is living in their fantasy world where legal, registered, CCW gun owners are committing crimes and mass shootings. Quite the opposite; the illegal, unregistered crowd is who you need to be worried about.

You would probably find that most of the school and other shootings used guns owned by them or one of their family members.


There are stolen guns used in crimes but these are probably connected with the drug trade and other illegal activities like gambling, prostitution, etc.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

I remember hearing about a few different mass shootings, when more than one person in the crowd was carrying a gun, but NONE of them shot back. For that reason - I am of the opinion that all these folks claiming to demand the right to protect themselves from a shooter - are posturing. They WANT to believe that they'd shoot the assailant. But chances are, they won't. And if they do shoot, and miss, guess who ends up shooting them instead?

Then there's the possibility that someone turns the corner JUST as a defender is firing against the original shooter. And that corner-turner person sees the defender doing the shooting, and shoots THEM thinking they're saving the day.

You couldn't pay me to possess a firearm. If I thought otherwise, I would've gone into law enforcement instead of retail.

[Taltarzac725]

Characteristics and Obtainment Methods of Firearms Used in Adolescent School Shootings - PubMed (https://share.google/deCCMNsjKUhtFsmBl)

FYI.

[Blueblaze]

I grew up in Oklahoma, where open carry has ALWAYS been legal. I can count on two fingers the times I ever saw a civilian carry openly, and in both cases, they were business owners. One of them was a favorite downtown burger joint, and I will admit, the first time I saw a guy flipping burgers with a 357 on his hip, it was a shock. But I doubt that he was ever robbed.

It's a stupid thing to worry about. Nobody who means you harm is going to advertise it.

[Taltarzac725]

I grew up in Oklahoma, where open carry has ALWAYS been legal. I can count on two fingers the times I ever saw a civilian carry openly, and in both cases, they were business owners. One of them was a favorite downtown burger joint, and I will admit, the first time I saw a guy flipping burgers with a 357 on his hip, it was a shock. But I doubt that he was ever robbed.

It's a stupid thing to worry about. Nobody who means you harm is going to advertise it.

Maybe not in the Villages but criminals market themselves often on their desire to do harm to others. Especially to members of other gangs.

[Bill14564]

Did we read the same report?

Did the report you read include the following conclusions?

- There is supportive evidence that shall-issue concealed-carry laws may increase total homicides, firearm homicides, and violent crime. Evidence for the effects of permitless-carry laws on total homicides is inconclusive.

- the existing literature provides supportive evidence that shall-issue laws increase firearm homicides.

- there is supportive evidence that shall-issue laws increase violent crime.

That permitless-carry was found to have no supportive evidence is interesting. Perhaps looking at the crime statistics of the areas prior to choosing the two different approaches would help explain the difference.

[forebubba]

I’m liking Florida more and more.
Floridas AG is telling law enforcement that open carry is the law of the land, after the state supreme court decision last week, stemming from a state lower court ruling that the states open carry ban was unconstitutional.
Of course there are common sense restrictions on where you cannot open carry. But this is a step in the right direction.
Side note. It’s been 17,396 days of a loaded firearm in my dwelling. Another successful day of zero discharges. Accidental or otherwise. It’s a win win!
Florida'''s open carry ban overturned: Sheriffs laud decision but caution gun owners to know these restrictions | FOX 35 Orlando (https://www.fox35orlando.com/news/floridas-open-carry-ban-overturned-sheriffs-laud-decision-caution-gun-owners-know-restrictions)

Wait for a couple of over served angry people get into at the square

[Mrprez]

Wait for a couple of over served angry people get into at the square

It’s illegal to carry a gun into a place serving alcohol. Concealed or open carry.

[Pugchief]

I remember hearing about a few different mass shootings, when more than one person in the crowd was carrying a gun, but NONE of them shot back. For that reason - I am of the opinion that all these folks claiming to demand the right to protect themselves from a shooter - are posturing. They WANT to believe that they'd shoot the assailant. But chances are, they won't. And if they do shoot, and miss, guess who ends up shooting them instead?



This is a completely ridiculous argument. Depends what you mean by mass shooting. No one is going to try to take down the guy in Las Vegas a few years ago shooting from a high perch, but if you're in a small restaurant and some whack job starts shooting, you would be much more likely to intervene.

[Pugchief]

Did the report you read include the following conclusions?

- There is supportive evidence that shall-issue concealed-carry laws may increase total homicides, firearm homicides, and violent crime. Evidence for the effects of permitless-carry laws on total homicides is inconclusive.

- the existing literature provides supportive evidence that shall-issue laws increase firearm homicides.

- there is supportive evidence that shall-issue laws increase violent crime.

That permitless-carry was found to have no supportive evidence is interesting. Perhaps looking at the crime statistics of the areas prior to choosing the two different approaches would help explain the difference.

"Shall issue" hmmm, what do the states that have Shall Issue have in common? Would those be the states that previously had (and still do) the most restrictive gun laws? Did those gun bans in NYC, Chicago, Baltimore and DC, etc, lead to any reduction in gun crime when the bans were in place before they were forced by SCOTUS to become Shall Issue?

[Bill14564]

"Shall issue" hmmm, what do the states that have Shall Issue have in common? Would those be the states that previously had (and still do) the most restrictive gun laws? Did those gun bans in NYC, Chicago, Baltimore and DC, etc, lead to any reduction in gun crime when the bans were in place before they were forced by SCOTUS to become Shall Issue?

According to the paper, what those states have in common is an increase in violent crime AFTER shall-issue became law.

Take a population with a high crime rate then make it easier to get a gun and crime increase. Who would have guessed?

Take a population that has such a low crime rate that permitless-carry doesn’t seem like a ridiculous idea and crime does not increase. A little surprising yet…

Definitely needs more study but there might be a pattern.

[MrFlorida]

Win win for who? Can someone carry an unconcealed gun into McDonalds and order a Big Mac? If somone carries an unconcealed gun, how do you know they are not there to rob the establishment? Welcome to Floriduh!

Ask somebody who lives in the 45 other states that allow open carry....

[MrFlorida]

I remember hearing about a few different mass shootings, when more than one person in the crowd was carrying a gun, but NONE of them shot back. For that reason - I am of the opinion that all these folks claiming to demand the right to protect themselves from a shooter - are posturing. They WANT to believe that they'd shoot the assailant. But chances are, they won't. And if they do shoot, and miss, guess who ends up shooting them instead?

Then there's the possibility that someone turns the corner JUST as a defender is firing against the original shooter. And that corner-turner person sees the defender doing the shooting, and shoots THEM thinking they're saving the day.

You couldn't pay me to possess a firearm. If I thought otherwise, I would've gone into law enforcement instead of retail.

Daniel Perry comes to mind...

[Taltarzac725]

Daniel Perry comes to mind...


Murder of Garrett Foster - Wikipedia (https://share.google/EOYyC2yQnItflr9VO)


That is a real mess as far as any indication of a justice system that works. And the complete absence of common sense.

[MrFlorida]

Wait for a couple of over served angry people get into at the square

You know people DO carry guns now don't you? They are concealed so you'll never know. I don't see anybody getting shot over getting served.

[Joecooool418]

This could become a slippery slope for those who will now purchase a firearm and end up shooting themselves or a family member by accident. Don't forget to contact your insurance agent for an add-on to your policy, because if you accidentally shoot someone who didn't deserve to be killed, or even if they did, you'll be in a heap of trouble financially.

Don't get me wrong, I am not against gun ownership, but unless there is training involved where the gun owner is placed under stress, the heart is beating at 100+ bpm, there's shortness of breath, and the sweat is running down your face, then it's best not to carry a firearm. Just regular target practice won't get it.

The average person might think they know what to do when faced with a life-and-death situation involving a firearm, but believe me, they don't. However, I also understand the axiom of it being better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6. Lots of things to think about, but training needs to be a big part of the equation before strapping on.Well, that's the inconvenient truth about gun ownership.

“People living in homes with guns were 7 times more likely to be shot by a family member or acquaintance than by a stranger.”
— American Journal of Epidemiology, 2003

and

“For every time a gun in the home is used in self-defense, there were 37 suicides involving firearms.”
— Kellermann et al., NEJM, 1992 (backed by later CDC studies)

[Taltarzac725]

You know people DO carry guns now don't you? They are concealed so you'll never know. I don't see anybody getting shot over getting served.

There have been incidents in which a gun carrier goes off the deep end. I am not talking about school and other type of culprits but just someone who snaps. Killing of Chad Oulson - Wikipedia (https://share.google/oC0TxgNJTVOuevhoO)

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

This is a completely ridiculous argument. Depends what you mean by mass shooting. No one is going to try to take down the guy in Las Vegas a few years ago shooting from a high perch, but if you're in a small restaurant and some whack job starts shooting, you would be much more likely to intervene.

Then what is your justification for carrying a firearm in that kind of crowd? And if some whack job starts shooting, and hits you before you even realize you need to unholster your weapon - or if you hit them and miss and hit another customer - then what?

[Mrprez]

Then what is your justification for carrying a firearm in that kind of crowd? And if some whack job starts shooting, and hits you before you even realize you need to unholster your weapon - or if you hit them and miss and hit another customer - then what?

Basic firearms training for concealed carry.

[Rocksnap]

Effects of Concealed-Carry Laws on Violent Crime | RAND (https://share.google/4EZew2Xs9yAYf7Xme)

Seems to be inconclusive on those statistics.
Crime down in relaxed gun law states, crime UP in gun restrictive states. The more you know.
Gun Laws vs. Crime Rates in 2024: A Comprehensive Analysis - Legal Reader (https://www.legalreader.com/gun-laws-vs-crime-rates-in-2024-a-comprehensive-analysis/)

[Rocksnap]

Win win for who? Can someone carry an unconcealed gun into McDonalds and order a Big Mac? If somone carries an unconcealed gun, how do you know they are not there to rob the establishment? Welcome to Floriduh!
When the firearm changes from being holstered, to being in your hand. Would be my guess.

[MrFlorida]

There have been incidents in which a gun carrier goes off the deep end. I am not talking about school and other type of culprits but just someone who snaps. Killing of Chad Oulson - Wikipedia (https://share.google/oC0TxgNJTVOuevhoO)

True, but there are more armed criminals out there that want to do you harm than law abiding citizens going off the deep end...

[Cdj1040]

This is political and not appropriate to post here. Many here are NOT in favor of guns and open carry. This is not the wild West!

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

True, but there are more armed criminals out there that want to do you harm than law abiding citizens going off the deep end...

That seems pretty scary. Are there armed criminals in the room with you now?

I've been living in The Villages for 7 years, and haven't ever met anyone who has tried to do me harm, with or without a firearm.

I am confident, without any actual data to provide, that most people treated for mental disorders (aka "going off the deep end") are not armed criminals. So that would make them "law abiding citizens" who do not go off the deep end. And that would also mean that the armed criminals who want to do me harm, are in the minority even among people with mental disorders.

MOST people - with or without mental disorders - are not armed criminals who want to do me harm. Seven years living in Boston, over 30 years living in Connecticut, seven years currently living in The Villages, one year living elsewhere in Florida in my 20's...and the only attacks I've ever been victim of was a girl punching me once on the bus in elementary school because she heard I didn't like her, and then in high school when another girl pushed me up against the gym locker room wall because she heard I liked her boyfriend (who didn't know I even existed).

Addendum: after the girl on the bus got suspended, she approached me and thanked me for 3 days off from school and that any time I wanted someone beat up, to let her know, she owed me one. We were on friendly terms with each other from then on.

[maggie1]

This is a completely ridiculous argument. Depends what you mean by mass shooting. No one is going to try to take down the guy in Las Vegas a few years ago shooting from a high perch, but if you're in a small restaurant and some whack job starts shooting, you would be much more likely to intervene.

Tell that to the parents of all those little kids killed in Uvalde, TX. DPS officers, Sheriff's deputies, and other police officials all listened to those little tykes being slaughtered, and no one did a darn thing until it was too late. Nineteen kids and two adults killed - zero police officers killed or injured, and that's a good thing, but how many of those guys still live with the fact that had they done something, anything, maybe they could have ended the carnage earlier?

Your posture doesn't hold water. They were all armed and yet did nothing. How do you think the average Joe citizen would have done any better in a situation like this? How about the "whack job" in the restaurant, as you've described, do you think an average Joe citizen would have taken him out? It's doubtful. You can't get into the two-hand, off-hand position when you're shaking like a leaf on a tree.

[Taltarzac725]

Tell that to the parents of all those little kids killed in Uvalde, TX. DPS officers, Sheriff's deputies, and other police officials all listened to those little tykes being slaughtered, and no one did a darn thing until it was too late. Nineteen kids and two adults killed - zero police officers killed or injured, and that's a good thing, but how many of those guys still live with the fact that had they done something, anything, maybe they could have ended the carnage earlier?

Your posture doesn't hold water. They were all armed and yet did nothing. How do you think the average Joe citizen would have done any better in a situation like this? How about the "whack job" in the restaurant, as you've described, do you think an average Joe citizen would have taken him out? It's doubtful. You can't get into the two-hand, off-hand position when you're shaking like a leaf on a tree.

Uvalde seems like an aberration as far as police responding to an active shooter. Most of the time the police confront the shooter if they can do so without making the situation more dangerous for civilians.

[bmcgowan13]

Basic firearms training for concealed carry.

I attended the Concealed Carry Class put on by my local Florida PD in 2012.

It was laughable. They reviewed (I'm sorry-read aloud) the Florida Deadly Force laws (FSS 776.012) to us in a PD briefing room. Then you went into the men's Locker Room and you fired one .22 cal bullet into a sand-filled barrel as a demonstration of your "proficiency with a firearm." The instructor, placed his hands over yours as he handed you the weapon--and removed it so you could pull the trigger and then replaced his hand immediately after you fired it to remove the weapon.

It was FAR from any conceivable training in the use of a deadly weapon--a weapon that has no other purpose but to kill a person. But I cleared the training and picked up my Concealed Carry Permit in downtown Orlando a few weeks later. The State of FLorida considered me "qualified" after firing...one round...into a sand filled bucket.

I had 18 years of LEO before I moved to Orlando....

Please...it was a joke and the punchline enabled me to carry a concealed weapon...

[bmcgowan13]

Uvalde seems like an aberration as far as police responding to an active shooter. Most of the time the police confront the shooter if they can do so without making the situation more dangerous for civilians.

Not so sure. Since Columbine I am aware of only one other time that a School Resource Office (SRO) stopped an active assailant. According to the FBI most school active shooters end in suicide and the shooting is over within 5 minutes--before LEO arrives.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/stats-services-publications-school-shooter-school-shooter&ved=2ahUKEwjTifSDt-OPAxXNMtAFHdBsAcMQFnoECB4QAQ&usg=AOvVaw3d83vtpRq6HsiQhEQ6H_mI

Dixon, Illinois (2018): An SRO chased and exchanged gunfire with a former student who was armed with a rifle at a high school graduation rehearsal. The officer shot and wounded the suspect, ending the attack with no one else injured.

Maybe I'm wrong . Do you have other cases..

I wish it were different...

[Mrprez]

I attended the Concealed Carry Class put on by my local Florida PD in 2012.

It was laughable. They reviewed (I'm sorry-read aloud) the Florida Deadly Force laws (FSS 776.012) to us in a PD briefing room. Then you went into the men's Locker Room and you fired one .22 cal bullet into a sand-filled barrel as a demonstration of your "proficiency with a firearm." The instructor, placed his hands over yours as he handed you the weapon--and removed it so you could pull the trigger and then replaced his hand immediately after you fired it to remove the weapon.

It was FAR from any conceivable training in the use of a deadly weapon--a weapon that has no other purpose but to kill a person. But I cleared the training and picked up my Concealed Carry Permit in downtown Orlando a few weeks later. The State of FLorida considered me "qualified" after firing...one round...into a sand filled bucket.

I had 18 years of LEO before I moved to Orlando....

Please...it was a joke and the punchline enabled me to carry a concealed weapon...

Mine was not like that at all. 4 hours of classroom training, a written test and I think we fired 10 rounds.

[Taltarzac725]

Not so sure. Since Columbine I am aware of only one other time that a School Resource Office (SRO) stopped an active assailant. According to the FBI most school active shooters end in suicide and the shooting is over within 5 minutes--before LEO arrives.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/stats-services-publications-school-shooter-school-shooter&ved=2ahUKEwjTifSDt-OPAxXNMtAFHdBsAcMQFnoECB4QAQ&usg=AOvVaw3d83vtpRq6HsiQhEQ6H_mI

Dixon, Illinois (2018): An SRO chased and exchanged gunfire with a former student who was armed with a rifle at a high school graduation rehearsal. The officer shot and wounded the suspect, ending the attack with no one else injured.

Maybe I'm wrong . Do you have other cases..

I wish it were different...

I was talking about police response to an active shooter. The Uvalde response was kind of non-existent for an hour or so.

[Topspinmo]

Tell that to the parents of all those little kids killed in Uvalde, TX. DPS officers, Sheriff's deputies, and other police officials all listened to those little tykes being slaughtered, and no one did a darn thing until it was too late. Nineteen kids and two adults killed - zero police officers killed or injured, and that's a good thing, but how many of those guys still live with the fact that had they done something, anything, maybe they could have ended the carnage earlier?

Your posture doesn't hold water. They were all armed and yet did nothing. How do you think the average Joe citizen would have done any better in a situation like this? How about the "whack job" in the restaurant, as you've described, do you think an average Joe citizen would have taken him out? It's doubtful. You can't get into the two-hand, off-hand position when you're shaking like a leaf on a tree.


They were following orders not to engage. Came out after the aftermath and sheriff or who was in charge got fired.

[VAtoFLA]

They were chicken sh1t so they waited in the hallway. Scared because they were outgunned. They all had weapons, but not like the shooters weapon.

Escalation is the thing we don't think of. We think Bad guy has a gun, if I show up with a gun, bad guy won't act bad. Problem is bad guy's response isn't to not act, it's to come with a more powerful weapon.

I'm not coming out against any of it. Concealed, open, I'm fine with it and respect the laws of the nation and state. I just want to make sure as we discuss that we consider escalation at each step where our answer is to meet force with force.

[gorillarick]

After moving to Florida 15 years ago, I felt much safer in movie theatres thinking maybe 25% of the patrons were concealed carry.

Previously I was in a state where only the rich and well-connected could get a carry license.
Do you think morons with a death wish follow the law when they go to movie theatres, or anywhere else?
Gun free zones (like schools), invites the morons.

[ElDiabloJoe]

After moving to Florida 15 years ago, I felt much safer in movie theatres thinking maybe 25% of the patrons were concealed carry.

Previously I was in a state where only the rich and well-connected could get a carry license.
Do you think morons with a death wish follow the law when they go to movie theatres, or anywhere else?
Gun free zones (like schools), invites the morons.

^ Concur.

[MrFlorida]

This is political and not appropriate to post here. Many here are NOT in favor of guns and open carry. This is not the wild West!

Maybe you moved to the wrong state.

[MrFlorida]

That seems pretty scary. Are there armed criminals in the room with you now?

I've been living in The Villages for 7 years, and haven't ever met anyone who has tried to do me harm, with or without a firearm.

I am confident, without any actual data to provide, that most people treated for mental disorders (aka "going off the deep end") are not armed criminals. So that would make them "law abiding citizens" who do not go off the deep end. And that would also mean that the armed criminals who want to do me harm, are in the minority even among people with mental disorders.

MOST people - with or without mental disorders - are not armed criminals who want to do me harm. Seven years living in Boston, over 30 years living in Connecticut, seven years currently living in The Villages, one year living elsewhere in Florida in my 20's...and the only attacks I've ever been victim of was a girl punching me once on the bus in elementary school because she heard I didn't like her, and then in high school when another girl pushed me up against the gym locker room wall because she heard I liked her boyfriend (who didn't know I even existed).

Addendum: after the girl on the bus got suspended, she approached me and thanked me for 3 days off from school and that any time I wanted someone beat up, to let her know, she owed me one. We were on friendly terms with each other from then on.

I guess you didn't hear about the attempted car jacking on Colony a few weeks ago ?

[Lottoguy]

I'm hoping those with open carry DO NOT lose their cool from some minor incident. Of course after saying this it will happen.

[Taltarzac725]

I'm hoping those with open carry DO NOT lose their cool from some minor incident. Of course after saying this it will happen.

Damn you. You took my parking space.

[Bill14564]

True, but there are more armed criminals out there that want to do you harm than law abiding citizens going off the deep end...

I wonder if that is true. A criminal is a former law abiding citizen who made a bad choice. How many of the recent shootings that hit the headlines were carried out by someone who was a law abiding citizen the day before the shooting? How many were in legal possession of the weapons they used right up until they began their attack?

It's easy to say that criminals should not have guns, though your Colony example shows it is difficult to put into practice. It's not so easy to pick tomorrow's criminal out of today's law abiding citizen. We can (try to) close the barn door after the horses have gotten out but we're not really good at that, it doesn't solve the problem, and it does nothing for the victims.

[kingofbeer]

I'm hoping those with open carry DO NOT lose their cool from some minor incident. Of course after saying this it will happen.
If they make a mistake, they will either shoot themselves or shoot someone else in error and will get charge with reckless endangerment or worse. Let's say some old guy pulls out his gun to stop someone from robbing the CVS. The old guy starts shooting and kills a bystander. He will get charged for the offense and will get sued by the bystanders family.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

I wonder if that is true. A criminal is a former law abiding citizen who made a bad choice. How many of the recent shootings that hit the headlines were carried out by someone who was a law abiding citizen the day before the shooting? How many were in legal possession of the weapons they used right up until they began their attack?

It's easy to say that criminals should not have guns, though your Colony example shows it is difficult to put into practice. It's not so easy to pick tomorrow's criminal out of today's law abiding citizen. We can (try to) close the barn door after the horses have gotten out but we're not really good at that, it doesn't solve the problem, and it does nothing for the victims.

This is why making certain activities, behaviors, or choices illegal, is important. If there are no consequences to your choices, then you basically have permission to make them.

Yes, only criminals commit crimes. But if the crime isn't illegal, then the criminal is not a criminal when they commit it. It's not a crime. No consequence, no crime.

If you have to be registered and licensed, and take a test to carry a firearm in public, and there's no consequence for NOT being registered and licensed and tested, then - you really don't have to be.

But if NOT being registered, licensed, and tested comes with a jail sentence if you're caught, you're more likely to comply and get registered, licensed, and tested. A usually law-abiding citizen will do that. And even some criminals will do that, so that their sentence is lower if they get caught committing crimes with their firearms. "Yes, I shot out the window. But I am licensed to have this weapon so you can't get me on a weapons charge, only on a "you broke a window" charge."

Or whatever. You get the idea, it's a bad example but I'm not in the habit of asking criminals about their choices.

[rpalumberi]

Guns don't kill people, people kill people using a variety of things - are you ready to make knives illegal? Only the crazies. People who kill people are either hardened criminals or mentally disturbed. Anyone who uses a gun in the commission of a crime should get an automatic 10 year sentence - no judge necessary. Keep accepting those with mental issues as normal - transgender, furies & so many more, this will continue to happen. Free speech right, that's my common sense opinion - no politics.

[MrFlorida]

I'm hoping those with open carry DO NOT lose their cool from some minor incident. Of course after saying this it will happen.

Concealed carry has been around for a long time, what's the difference?

[kingofbeer]

Guns don't kill people, people kill people using a variety of things - are you ready to make knives illegal? Only the crazies. People who kill people are either hardened criminals or mentally disturbed. Anyone who uses a gun in the commission of a crime should get an automatic 10 year sentence - no judge necessary. Keep accepting those with mental issues as normal - transgender, furies & so many more, this will continue to happen. Free speech right, that's my common sense opinion - no politics.
No judge necessary? Give us a break!

[Bill14564]

Guns don't kill people, people kill people using a variety of things - are you ready to make knives illegal? Only the crazies. People who kill people are either hardened criminals or mentally disturbed. Anyone who uses a gun in the commission of a crime should get an automatic 10 year sentence - no judge necessary. Keep accepting those with mental issues as normal - transgender, furies & so many more, this will continue to happen. Free speech right, that's my common sense opinion - no politics.

ignorance and bigotry for the win, eh? You might look into the statistics on who commits the crimes - the transgender, furies (sic) & so on fall far behind "real" men.

Which of the recent shooting victims would not have had a better chance against a knife? I like my odds against someone standing three feet away with a knife but I have no chance at all against someone hiding 50 yards away with a rifle. You can't stop someone from attempting to commit a crime but you can make it more difficult to be successful.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Guns don't kill people, people kill people using a variety of things - are you ready to make knives illegal? Only the crazies. People who kill people are either hardened criminals or mentally disturbed. Anyone who uses a gun in the commission of a crime should get an automatic 10 year sentence - no judge necessary. Keep accepting those with mental issues as normal - transgender, furies & so many more, this will continue to happen. Free speech right, that's my common sense opinion - no politics.

Kyle Rittenhouse was either a hardened criminal or mentally disturbed. Cool.

[VAtoFLA]

Guns don't kill people, people kill people using a variety of things - are you ready to make knives illegal? Only the crazies. People who kill people are either hardened criminals or mentally disturbed. Anyone who uses a gun in the commission of a crime should get an automatic 10 year sentence - no judge necessary. Keep accepting those with mental issues as normal - transgender, furies & so many more, this will continue to happen. Free speech right, that's my common sense opinion - no politics.

That's really silly. Someone brought up Uvalde a few posts ago. Does anyone in this thread, anyone in the world, think for one second that if the killer was in that room with a knife that the armed officers wouldn't have stormed in and just stopped it?

You devalue your argument about it being a people problem when you go to such a ridiculous extreme.

[Pugchief]

A criminal is a former law abiding citizen who made a bad choice.

Ah yes, a bad choice. :1rotfl::1rotfl:
Because reasons.

[Pugchief]

This is why making certain activities, behaviors, or choices illegal, is important.

And then actually arresting, prosecuting and incarcerating. Otherwise "illegal" is moot.


If there are no consequences to your choices, then you basically have permission to make them.

Exactly.

Yes, only criminals commit crimes. But if the crime isn't illegal, then the criminal is not a criminal when they commit it. It's not a crime. No consequence, no crime.

Wordsalad. If the crime isn't illegal, it's not a crime.

[tedquick]

Open carry may be legal, but don’t I think it’s a good strategy

Why?

[Taltarzac725]

Why?

Easier target for bad guys. Bank robbers, for instance, would take the guards out of the equation as quickly as possible but perhaps miss the person with a concealed carry weapon.

[MrFlorida]

I wonder if that is true. A criminal is a former law abiding citizen who made a bad choice. How many of the recent shootings that hit the headlines were carried out by someone who was a law abiding citizen the day before the shooting? How many were in legal possession of the weapons they used right up until they began their attack?

It's easy to say that criminals should not have guns, though your Colony example shows it is difficult to put into practice. It's not so easy to pick tomorrow's criminal out of today's law abiding citizen. We can (try to) close the barn door after the horses have gotten out but we're not really good at that, it doesn't solve the problem, and it does nothing for the victims.
So your solution is to ban everyone's rights, for what may happen...why not ban cars because someone may drink and drive. Same logic.

[Bill14564]

So your solution is to ban everyone's rights, for what may happen...why not ban cars because someone may drink and drive. Same logic.

Cars are not designed to cause damage, guns are.
Cars need to be registered, guns largely do not.
Car drivers need to be tested and licensed, gun owners do not.
It is rare that a car is misused to injure multiple people, it is all too common with guns.

Perhaps if guns were more well-regulated with registration, mandatory training, and licensing things might change.

[Taltarzac725]

Cars are not designed to cause damage, guns are.
Cars need to be registered, guns largely do not.
Car drivers need to be tested and licensed, gun owners do not.
It is rare that a car is misused to injure multiple people, it is all too common with guns.

Perhaps if guns were more well-regulated with registration, mandatory training, and licensing things might change.

There are a very high number of guns I expect that were not registered because they were passed down from various family members. I got a lot of mine which were in my house from my older brother who never really liked firearms. I sold most of those to get letters to various victim/witness providers to see what they would like to see in their local libraries to empower survivors/victims of crimes. Seemed very ironic to me though. Part of my 224 613 Project. Numbers I have used since late 1992. They kind of can gauge how I am doing.

And I expect many of these victim/survivors were created by weapons used in domestic abuse cases.

[Wing-nut2]

Yes they do. The Villages gun club has meetings at the rec centers and even cleaning seminars. Attendance is limited to 25 - 35 club members,, We get together at the rec center and clean our firearms. I've been a NRA Instructor for over 40 years. I have certified several thousand villagers to carry a firearm of some type of weapon. A CWFL (concealed weapon and firearms license) you can carry a firearm or weapon. At night, every bar on the squares has people carrying firearms. Unless there is a sign or the owner/manager asks you to take your firearm outside and put it in your car, you're golden.

After all that, I'm not a big open carry guy. I think being able to carry concealed is just fine. And I do most of the time. What I do like, it takes away the chance someone will see my firearm and call the police.

Several County Sheriffs have posted videos giving advice on open carry and that they have told their officers not to interfere. It's the law. I hav even seen a villages real estate person with a firearm on. It was covered, but he still carried. If you think there are no guns in The Villages, you're wrong.


Just a note, there is no registration of firearms in Florida. In fact, it is against Florida law to keep a list of firearms and/or their owners.

[Bill14564]

Yes they do. The Villages gun club has meetings at the rec centers and even cleaning seminars. Attendance is limited to 25 - 35 club members,, We get together at the rec center and clean our firearms. I've been a NRA Instructor for over 40 years. I have certified several thousand villagers to carry a firearm of some type of weapon. A CWFL (concealed weapon and firearms license) you can carry a firearm or weapon. At night, every bar on the squares has people carrying firearms. Unless there is a sign or the owner/manager asks you to take your firearm outside and put it in your car, you're golden.

After all that, I'm not a big open carry guy. I think being able to carry concealed is just fine. And I do most of the time. What I do like, it takes away the chance someone will see my firearm and call the police.

Several County Sheriffs have posted videos giving advice on open carry and that they have told their officers not to interfere. It's the law. I hav even seen a villages real estate person with a firearm on. It was covered, but he still carried. If you think there are no guns in The Villages, you're wrong.


Just a note, there is no registration of firearms in Florida. In fact, it is against Florida law to keep a list of firearms and/or their owners.

I think you meant to say restaurant since Florida statutes prohibit carrying a weapon into a bar. (though maybe by definition we do not have bars in the squares)

[Taltarzac725]

I think you meant to say restaurant since Florida statutes prohibit carrying a weapon into a bar.

At Bonefish Grill, for instance, you are a few feet from the bar when you enter but then they will take you to the dining area.

Where you can drink until drunk, I assume, if that is your desire.

[Bill14564]

At Bonefish Grill, for instance, you are a few feet from the bar when you enter but then they will take you to the dining area.

Where you can drink until drunk, I assume, if that is your desire.

Yeah, I modified my post a little. It could be that by the definition of bar and restaurant we don't have bars in the squares.

[MrFlorida]

Cars are not designed to cause damage, guns are.
Cars need to be registered, guns largely do not.
Car drivers need to be tested and licensed, gun owners do not.
It is rare that a car is misused to injure multiple people, it is all too common with guns.

Perhaps if guns were more well-regulated with registration, mandatory training, and licensing things might change.

Google the stats where people are killed by drunk drivers, the results may shock you .

[fdpaq0580]

So your solution is to ban everyone's rights, for what may happen...why not ban cars because someone may drink and drive. Same logic.

Not the same logic. Not even close.just deflection.

[Bill14564]

Google the stats where people are killed by drunk drivers, the results may shock you .

Accidental shootings happen as well.

A car used as it is supposed to be used will not cause injuries. A car can malfunction and a car can be used improperly but it is not designed to cause injuries. Because of the potential damage cars may cause if not used properly we require registration, training, and licensing. Even that doesn't solve the problem entirely but I would hate to see what would happen without it.

Firearms are designed to cause damage, injury, or death. Used legally, they cause damage to targets or property and they cause death to non-human animals. Used improperly or illegally they cause injury or death to persons but they are still being used as designed. In spite of the damage guns may cause if used exactly the way they were designed to be used, some (most?) states do not require registration, training, or licensing.

We can argue over statistics but just in absolute numbers, gun deaths exceed car deaths. I wonder what would happen to those numbers if we required proof of training and registration for purchases.

[ElDiabloJoe]

At Bonefish Grill, for instance, you are a few feet from the bar when you enter but then they will take you to the dining area.

Where you can drink until drunk, I assume, if that is your desire.
Just like most drivers are responsible, and most homeowners are responsible, and most employed people are responsible, most gun owners are responsible also.

Responsible gun owners have usually taken into consideration the enormous amount of personal liability and legal exposure (both civil and criminal) one incurs having a firearm on one's person while simultaneously indulging in alcoholic beverages.

Most realize that a civil or prosecuting attorney will tear you apart even if your lawful engagement with a weapon goes absolutely text book - even a sip of beer will be argued to influence judgement.

*Most* responsible gun owners are smart enough to leave it at home or in the trunk when drinking in public.

[Taltarzac725]

Google the stats where people are killed by drunk drivers, the results may shock you .

Mothers Against Drunk Driving M.A.D.D. have played a critical role in my 224 613 Project. Especially in the 1990s. MADD: Mothers Against Drunk Driving 45th Celebration (https://share.google/9SyGrQntLEitjy5Pm)


And there are cases that in which murderers use various vehicles as weapons. Mentally Ill Woman Dies After 20 Years on Nevada's Death Row | Death Penalty Information Center (https://share.google/WnImBFCugjQolg2d0)


Priscilla Ford - Wikipedia (https://share.google/hEq9nKNoNCWNHrUqV). One of the earlier of these cases was in Reno on Thanksgiving Day in 1980.

[Wing-nut2]

I think you meant to say restaurant since Florida statutes prohibit carrying a weapon into a bar. (though maybe by definition we do not have bars in the squares)
I have seen guns in City Fire and several other bars. Yes it is against the law. The law is not in the bar so they get away with it. By the way, you can still drink and carry a gun, but not in the dedicated bar area. The dining room is OK.

It will be interesting. Fore example you can't go to the Post Office Otha gun, period. you also can't park in the parking lot of that post office. The post office in wildwood is in a large shopping center, you , by law, can not park anywhere in that parking lot because the way the shopping center wrote the rules, the parking lot belongs to ALL the tenants. That means you can't park there if you're carrying a firearm because of the post office.

[kcrazorbackfan]

Like walking into a crowded restaurant with a gun on your hip? Scare people into getting a table faster?

Seriously? How would my Glock 48 exposed on my hip scare the restaurant into getting people a table faster?

Doing something stupid is doing something with criminal intent. That’s what we, people that will open carry, want to prevent.

[Taltarzac725]

Seriously? How would my Glock 48 exposed on my hip scare the restaurant into getting people a table faster?

Doing something stupid is doing something with criminal intent. That’s what we, people that will open carry, want to prevent.

I doubt if any restaurant staff wants some wanna- be Rambo waiting for a table for a long time.


I find the whole idea of open carry as an idiotic approach to curbing crimes.


And the exact opposite of common sense.


Would you want to be standing next to an obviously pistol- packing Momma or a woman with a hidden gun when a criminal comes into rob the restaurant with his gun drawn?
He/she would probably notice the pistol -packing Momma first.

[JMintzer]

You would probably find that most of the school and other shootings used guns owned by them or one of their family members.


There are stolen guns used in crimes but these are probably connected with the drug trade and other illegal activities like gambling, prostitution, etc.

An awful lot of speculation you got goin' on there...

[JMintzer]

I remember hearing about a few different mass shootings, when more than one person in the crowd was carrying a gun, but NONE of them shot back. For that reason - I am of the opinion that all these folks claiming to demand the right to protect themselves from a shooter - are posturing. They WANT to believe that they'd shoot the assailant. But chances are, they won't. And if they do shoot, and miss, guess who ends up shooting them instead?

Then there's the possibility that someone turns the corner JUST as a defender is firing against the original shooter. And that corner-turner person sees the defender doing the shooting, and shoots THEM thinking they're saving the day.

You couldn't pay me to possess a firearm. If I thought otherwise, I would've gone into law enforcement instead of retail.

I'm glad you'll never carry as you haven't a clue as to what people who do carry think. Your made up scenarios are pure fantasy...

[fdpaq0580]

Seriously? How would my Glock 48 exposed on my hip scare the restaurant into getting people a table faster?

Doing something stupid is doing something with criminal intent. That’s what we, people that will open carry, want to prevent.

Get real. People who want open carry may or may not realize that having a loaded and ready for action is passive/agressive] intimidation. You will get looks and make many folks, especially those with families, very uncomfortable and you know it. Makes sense that those looking for a pleasant meal will hurry or pack there food to go. You would be advertising the possibility and increased probability of violence and drama. If I walked in with my family and saw someone with a gun on their hip, I would take the family elsewhere.

[JMintzer]

Maybe not in the Villages but criminals market themselves often on their desire to do harm to others. Especially to members of other gangs.

And they don't typically open carry. They may brandish their firearm, but they don't advertise the fact on a regular basis.

[JMintzer]

Did the report you read include the following conclusions?

- There is supportive evidence that shall-issue concealed-carry laws may increase total homicides, firearm homicides, and violent crime. Evidence for the effects of permitless-carry laws on total homicides is inconclusive.

- the existing literature provides supportive evidence that shall-issue laws increase firearm homicides.

- there is supportive evidence that shall-issue laws increase violent crime.

That permitless-carry was found to have no supportive evidence is interesting. Perhaps looking at the crime statistics of the areas prior to choosing the two different approaches would help explain the difference.

At least you included the "may" and "inconclusive" in your cherry-picked quotes...

[JMintzer]

Wait for a couple of over served angry people get into at the square

Projection...

Have any "over served angry people" who were concealed carrying "gotten into it at the squares"?

[JMintzer]

It’s illegal to carry a gun into a place serving alcohol. Concealed or open carry.

Partially true. You cannot carry (open or concealed) into a bar, but you CAN carry into a restaurant that serves alcohol...

[JMintzer]

According to the paper, what those states have in common is an increase in violent crime AFTER shall-issue became law.

Take a population with a high crime rate then make it easier to get a gun and crime increase. Who would have guessed?

Take a population that has such a low crime rate that permitless-carry doesn’t seem like a ridiculous idea and crime does not increase. A little surprising yet…

Definitely needs more study but there might be a pattern.

"Shall Issue" doesn't make it any easier to get a gun...

[Bill14564]

At least you included the "may" and "inconclusive" in your cherry-picked quotes...

Then you did not read the study. Otherwise you would recognize those “cherry-picked quotes” as the overall conclusion of the study and the separate conclusions from those two topics. Short of pasting the entire study (and a link had been provided) that felt like the best that could be done.

[JMintzer]

Daniel Perry comes to mind...

And look what happened to him...

My wife once asked me what I would do if someone started shooting. I told her "I'd grab her and get the hell out of there".

When she asked if I would try to stop the shooter, I replied "I'm not trying to be John Wayne. I'm only trying to protect me and mine. If I can't escape (the first thing you're taught to try to do), THEN, I'll shoot back...

[JMintzer]

Murder of Garrett Foster - Wikipedia (https://share.google/EOYyC2yQnItflr9VO)


That is a real mess as far as any indication of a justice system that works. And the complete absence of common sense.

The fact that Wiki calls it "Murder" is troubling...

[Bill14564]

"Shall Issue" doesn't make it any easier to get a gun...

I’m not sure that’s true but let’s say it is. I’ll change my statement to shall-issue makes it easier to carry a gun, more likely that a gun will be carried, and less likely an illegal gun will be identified and taken off the street. Add that to a population with a high crime rate already and crime increases. Who would have guessed?

[JMintzer]

There have been incidents in which a gun carrier goes off the deep end. I am not talking about school and other type of culprits but just someone who snaps. Killing of Chad Oulson - Wikipedia (https://share.google/oC0TxgNJTVOuevhoO)

While tragic, what does that have to do with the topic at hand?

[JMintzer]

Then what is your justification for carrying a firearm in that kind of crowd? And if some whack job starts shooting, and hits you before you even realize you need to unholster your weapon - or if you hit them and miss and hit another customer - then what?

That's a lot of "what if's"... What if you see the whack job start to shoot and are able to stop him with one accurate shot, injuring no one else - then what?

[Bill14564]

The fact that Wiki calls it "Murder" is troubling...

Did the jury not convict him of murder? What else should wiki call it?

[JMintzer]

This is political and not appropriate to post here. Many here are NOT in favor of guns and open carry. This is not the wild West!

1. The "Wild West" was not that wild. You're speaking of the fictitious dime store novels and the old movie westerns...

2. No problem not being in favor of guns. It's quite easy to ignore this thread if it offends you.

[BillyGrown]

I’m liking Florida more and more.
Floridas AG is telling law enforcement that open carry is the law of the land, after the state supreme court decision last week, stemming from a state lower court ruling that the states open carry ban was unconstitutional.
Of course there are common sense restrictions on where you cannot open carry. But this is a step in the right direction.
Side note. It’s been 17,396 days of a loaded firearm in my dwelling. Another successful day of zero discharges. Accidental or otherwise. It’s a win win!
Florida'''s open carry ban overturned: Sheriffs laud decision but caution gun owners to know these restrictions | FOX 35 Orlando (https://www.fox35orlando.com/news/floridas-open-carry-ban-overturned-sheriffs-laud-decision-caution-gun-owners-know-restrictions)

Thankfully we can open carry here, but we just keep loaded pistols in the house. I saw last week where there was a home invasion conviction of an Ocala man hurting an elderly couple here in the villages. If the guy in the wheelchair had a gun, a lot could have been avoided.
Ocala Man Convicted Of Home Invasion In 'The Villages,' Faces Decades In Prison (https://www.tampafp.com/ocala-man-convicted-of-home-invasion-in-the-villages-faces-decades-in-prison/)

[JMintzer]

Tell that to the parents of all those little kids killed in Uvalde, TX. DPS officers, Sheriff's deputies, and other police officials all listened to those little tykes being slaughtered, and no one did a darn thing until it was too late. Nineteen kids and two adults killed - zero police officers killed or injured, and that's a good thing, but how many of those guys still live with the fact that had they done something, anything, maybe they could have ended the carnage earlier?

Your posture doesn't hold water. They were all armed and yet did nothing. How do you think the average Joe citizen would have done any better in a situation like this? How about the "whack job" in the restaurant, as you've described, do you think an average Joe citizen would have taken him out? It's doubtful. You can't get into the two-hand, off-hand position when you're shaking like a leaf on a tree.

So, because in a certain horrific incident, no one responded, that means no one will ever respond?

Someone responded in the Southerland Springs Church shooting (2107).

Someone responded in the Greenwood Park Mall shooting (2022)

Just to name a few...

[fdpaq0580]

Seriously? How would my Glock 48 exposed on my hip scare the restaurant into getting people a table faster?

Doing something stupid is doing something with criminal intent. That’s what we, people that will open carry, want to prevent.

Get real, friend. People who want open carry may or may not realize that having a gun strapped to your hip is passive/aggressive intimidation by implied threat. Folks, especially those with family, will feel anxious. Their pleasant meal definitely less pleasant. Some will eat quicker so they can leave. Some may pack their food to go. If I walked into a place and saw open carry, I would take my family elsewhere.
As far as preventing trouble, you are creating an atmosphere of anxiety and tension that concealed carry does not. More likely to spark an incident than concealed carry. You will be perceived as a threat whether you like it or not, just like the pitbull with the spiked collar as he strains the leash coming toward you.
Of course, that's just my perspective.

[JMintzer]

Uvalde seems like an aberration as far as police responding to an active shooter. Most of the time the police confront the shooter if they can do so without making the situation more dangerous for civilians.

Exactly. Unfortunately, Parkland was also a event where the armed security officer failed to respond.

[JMintzer]

I attended the Concealed Carry Class put on by my local Florida PD in 2012.

It was laughable. They reviewed (I'm sorry-read aloud) the Florida Deadly Force laws (FSS 776.012) to us in a PD briefing room. Then you went into the men's Locker Room and you fired one .22 cal bullet into a sand-filled barrel as a demonstration of your "proficiency with a firearm." The instructor, placed his hands over yours as he handed you the weapon--and removed it so you could pull the trigger and then replaced his hand immediately after you fired it to remove the weapon.

It was FAR from any conceivable training in the use of a deadly weapon--a weapon that has no other purpose but to kill a person. But I cleared the training and picked up my Concealed Carry Permit in downtown Orlando a few weeks later. The State of FLorida considered me "qualified" after firing...one round...into a sand filled bucket.

I had 18 years of LEO before I moved to Orlando....

Please...it was a joke and the punchline enabled me to carry a concealed weapon...

That sad and the instructor should have been reported. My training was 8 hours of classroom and 2 hours of range time...

[JMintzer]

I'm hoping those with open carry DO NOT lose their cool from some minor incident. Of course after saying this it will happen.

Has it happened with those who concealed carry? No? Then why assume it would happen with open carry?

[JMintzer]

Damn you. You took my parking space.

No, it's "you scratched my car!" Then you punch the guy and he dies...

[JMintzer]

I wonder if that is true. A criminal is a former law abiding citizen who made a bad choice. How many of the recent shootings that hit the headlines were carried out by someone who was a law abiding citizen the day before the shooting? How many were in legal possession of the weapons they used right up until they began their attack?

It's easy to say that criminals should not have guns, though your Colony example shows it is difficult to put into practice. It's not so easy to pick tomorrow's criminal out of today's law abiding citizen. We can (try to) close the barn door after the horses have gotten out but we're not really good at that, it doesn't solve the problem, and it does nothing for the victims.

There are plenty of "career criminals" who have already been identified, arrested and let go... But that's another argument...

[JMintzer]

If they make a mistake, they will either shoot themselves or shoot someone else in error and will get charge with reckless endangerment or worse. Let's say some old guy pulls out his gun to stop someone from robbing the CVS. The old guy starts shooting and kills a bystander. He will get charged for the offense and will get sued by the bystanders family.

More fantasy...

[fdpaq0580]

Thankfully we can open carry here, but we just keep loaded pistols in the house. I saw last week where there was a home invasion conviction of an Ocala man hurting an elderly couple here in the villages. If the guy in the wheelchair had a gun, a lot could have been avoided.
Ocala Man Convicted Of Home Invasion In 'The Villages,' Faces Decades In Prison (https://www.tampafp.com/ocala-man-convicted-of-home-invasion-in-the-villages-faces-decades-in-prison/)

IF! iF the guy in the wheelchair was not surprised. IF the guy in the wheelchair had his gun in his hand. IF the guy in the wheelchair he had been facing the invader. IF the guy in the wheelchair's hand wasn't shaking. IF the guy in the wheelchair didn't hesitate. IF the guy in the wheelchair was totally committed to killing another human being. IF the guy in the wheelchair shot first??? OOPS! IF the guy in the wheelchair was ready to answer a lot of questions and possibly go to trial for ... murder?

[BillyGrown]

If the villages couple attacked during the home invasion had a firearm, only the perpetrator would have been a casualty. O’Connor would have been 6 feet under and there would have only been a carpet cleaning bill.

[Pugchief]

The fact that Wiki calls it "Murder" is troubling...

Not exactly an unbiased source.....

[fdpaq0580]

More fantasy...

No. More reality. Sad but true.

[BillyGrown]

IF! iF the guy in the wheelchair was not surprised. IF the guy in the wheelchair had his gun in his hand. IF the guy in the wheelchair he had been facing the invader. IF the guy in the wheelchair's hand wasn't shaking. IF the guy in the wheelchair didn't hesitate. IF the guy in the wheelchair was totally committed to killing another human being. IF the guy in the wheelchair shot first??? OOPS! IF the guy in the wheelchair was ready to answer a lot of questions and possibly go to trial for ... murder?

When he went to get the car keys, he could have easily returned with a little more than car keys. Do you really think a Florida Jury would convict a man in a wheelchair killing an intruder in the man’s own home? Think again. The DA wouldn’t even bring charges.

[JMintzer]

Kyle Rittenhouse was either a hardened criminal or mentally disturbed. Cool.

He was neither. And he only shot people who were attacking him. A perfect example of controlled self defense. No one else was hurt!

[JMintzer]

So your solution is to ban everyone's rights, for what may happen...why not ban cars because someone may drink and drive. Same logic.
Exactly. 50,000 people are killed in automobile accidents every year. Let's ban cars!

[fdpaq0580]

Has it happened with those who concealed carry? No? Then why assume it would happen with open carry?

Not "No". "Yes" is the correct answer, and that is why it may be assumed it could happen with open carry.

[JMintzer]

Cars are not designed to cause damage, guns are.
Cars need to be registered, guns largely do not.
Car drivers need to be tested and licensed, gun owners do not.
It is rare that a car is misused to injure multiple people, it is all too common with guns.

Perhaps if guns were more well-regulated with registration, mandatory training, and licensing things might change.

Guns are designed to expel a projectile from the barrel. What that projectile does is user dependent.

How does registering a car prevent someone dying in an accident?

Cars are rarely used in attacks? Interesting. From the last year:

Into the Crowd: The Evolution of Vehicular Attacks and Prevention Efforts - Combating Terrorism Center at West Point (https://ctc.westpoint.edu/into-the-crowd-the-evolution-of-vehicular-attacks-and-prevention-efforts/)

[fdpaq0580]

Exactly. 50,000 people are killed in automobile accidents every year. Let's ban cars!

I knew you were a tree hugger at heart. ������������������

[JMintzer]

I think you meant to say restaurant since Florida statutes prohibit carrying a weapon into a bar. (though maybe by definition we do not have bars in the squares)

Of course he meant "restaurants". Most (all?) of the "bars" in TV are actually restaurants... Perfectly legal...

[JMintzer]

At Bonefish Grill, for instance, you are a few feet from the bar when you enter but then they will take you to the dining area.

Where you can drink until drunk, I assume, if that is your desire.

And that would be illegal, if you're carrying...

[JMintzer]

Accidental shootings happen as well.

A car used as it is supposed to be used will not cause injuries. A car can malfunction and a car can be used improperly but it is not designed to cause injuries. Because of the potential damage cars may cause if not used properly we require registration, training, and licensing. Even that doesn't solve the problem entirely but I would hate to see what would happen without it.

Firearms are designed to cause damage, injury, or death. Used legally, they cause damage to targets or property and they cause death to non-human animals. Used improperly or illegally they cause injury or death to persons but they are still being used as designed. In spite of the damage guns may cause if used exactly the way they were designed to be used, some (most?) states do not require registration, training, or licensing.

We can argue over statistics but just in absolute numbers, gun deaths exceed car deaths. I wonder what would happen to those numbers if we required proof of training and registration for purchases.

That is simply not true... You are conflating intent with function...

[fdpaq0580]

When he went to get the car keys, he could have easily returned with a little more than car keys. Do you really think a Florida Jury would convict a man in a wheelchair killing an intruder in the man’s own home? Think again. The DA wouldn’t even bring charges.

I thought again, per your suggestion. The word "convict" is no where in my post.
As for the DA bringing charges, we will never know because all the "If's" weren't met. But, stranger things have happened, and will continue to happen as time moves along. Prepare to be amazed.

[JMintzer]

Just like most drivers are responsible, and most homeowners are responsible, and most employed people are responsible, most gun owners are responsible also.

Responsible gun owners have usually taken into consideration the enormous amount of personal liability and legal exposure (both civil and criminal) one incurs having a firearm on one's person while simultaneously indulging in alcoholic beverages.

Most realize that a civil or prosecuting attorney will tear you apart even if your lawful engagement with a weapon goes absolutely text book - even a sip of beer will be argued to influence judgement.

*Most* responsible gun owners are smart enough to leave it at home or in the trunk when drinking in public.

:bowdown::bowdown::bowdown:

[fdpaq0580]

And that would be illegal, if you're carrying...

If it is concealed, who would know. People do illegal stuff allll the time. In fact I bet you may have done something illegal at some point in your life. I have, and I'm not proud of it. But I'm much better now. 😃

[JMintzer]

I have seen guns in City Fire and several other bars. Yes it is against the law. The law is not in the bar so they get away with it. By the way, you can still drink and carry a gun, but not in the dedicated bar area. The dining room is OK.

It will be interesting. Fore example you can't go to the Post Office Otha gun, period. you also can't park in the parking lot of that post office. The post office in wildwood is in a large shopping center, you , by law, can not park anywhere in that parking lot because the way the shopping center wrote the rules, the parking lot belongs to ALL the tenants. That means you can't park there if you're carrying a firearm because of the post office.


Please that statute... Methinks you're making that up...

And City Fire is a restaurant...

[JMintzer]

I doubt if any restaurant staff wants some wanna- be Rambo waiting for a table for a long time.


I find the whole idea of open carry as an idiotic approach to curbing crimes.


And the exact opposite of common sense.


Would you want to be standing next to an obviously pistol- packing Momma or a woman with a hidden gun when a criminal comes into rob the restaurant with his gun drawn?
He/she would probably notice the pistol -packing Momma first.

Pure fantasy...

[JMintzer]

Get real. People who want open carry may or may not realize that having a loaded and ready for action is passive/agressive] intimidation. You will get looks and make many folks, especially those with families, very uncomfortable and you know it. Makes sense that those looking for a pleasant meal will hurry or pack there food to go. You would be advertising the possibility and increased probability of violence and drama. If I walked in with my family and saw someone with a gun on their hip, I would take the family elsewhere.

Sounds like a "You" problem...

[Mrprez]

Partially true. You cannot carry (open or concealed) into a bar, but you CAN carry into a restaurant that serves alcohol...

You still cannot consume alcohol if you have a firearm with you.

Florida Statute 790.151 prohibits the carrying of a firearm while under the influence of alcohol, chemical substances, or controlled substances. While there isn’t a specific blood alcohol content (BAC) level explicitly defined in this statute regarding firearms, the law refers to being impaired to the point where your normal faculties are affected. This is significant because it means you don’t necessarily need to be legally drunk to be in violation. Even a small amount of alcohol that demonstrably impairs your judgment could lead to legal trouble. Law enforcement officers can use field sobriety tests and observations to determine if you are impaired.

[JMintzer]

I’m not sure that’s true but let’s say it is. I’ll change my statement to shall-issue makes it easier to carry a gun, more likely that a gun will be carried, and less likely an illegal gun will be identified and taken off the street.
I'lll have to disagree with your last statement. How could you possibly prove that?

Add that to a population with a high crime rate already and crime increases. Who would have guessed?

Where did you come up with that?

[JMintzer]

/// Wrong case

[JMintzer]

My bad. Confused Daniel Perry w/ Daniel Penny. Penny was acquitted...

[JMintzer]

No. More reality. Sad but true.

Sure... But no...

[JMintzer]

Not "No". "Yes" is the correct answer, and that is why it may be assumed it could happen with open carry.

Please cite the event where it happened. Seriously. I have NEVER heard of such a case in TV.

[JMintzer]

I knew you were a tree hugger at heart. ����������������� ��

:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl: Good one!

[JMintzer]

If it is concealed, who would know. People do illegal stuff allll the time. In fact I bet you may have done something illegal at some point in your life. I have, and I'm not proud of it. But I'm much better now. 😃

Not the point... But I refuse to answer on the grounds that it may... :p

[JMintzer]

You still cannot consume alcohol if you have a fireman with you.

Florida Statute 790.151 prohibits the carrying of a firearm while under the influence of alcohol, chemical substances, or controlled substances. While there isn’t a specific blood alcohol content (BAC) level explicitly defined in this statute regarding firearms, the law refers to being impaired to the point where your normal faculties are affected. This is significant because it means you don’t necessarily need to be legally drunk to be in violation. Even a small amount of alcohol that demonstrably impairs your judgment could lead to legal trouble. Law enforcement officers can use field sobriety tests and observations to determine if you are impaired.

There is a difference between "Consuming alcohol" and "Under the Influence"... A BIG difference!

[fdpaq0580]

That's a lot of "what if's"... What if you see the whack job start to shoot and are able to stop him with one accurate shot, injuring no one else - then what?

What, exactly, does a "whack job", look like? How do you know that he/she/it is actually going to pull the trigger? How do you know that the gun is even loaded, or real?
How do you know until said "whack job" actually discharges the weapon and a bullet is actually out of the muzzle that you aren't witnessing a stunt. Do you take him/her/it down first? And how would you feel if you, fueled by fear or anxiety shot first and found you had been too hasty and mistook a harmless YouTube prank and ended a life? And, when you f8re all the other gun towers who didn't know what you were shooting for and decide YOU are the shooter and fire in your direction?

[Mrprez]

There is a difference between "Consuming alcohol" and "Under the Influence"... A BIG difference!

It isn’t defined under that law. It could be as little as a sip.

[fdpaq0580]

There is a difference between "Consuming alcohol" and "Under the Influence"... A BIG difference!

.08 is NOT A BIG difference.

[Pugchief]

You still cannot consume alcohol if you have a fireman with you.



How about if you have a policeman with you? :jester:

[fdpaq0580]

Sounds like a "You" problem...

Not just me. But feeling somehow so insecure and impotent that you feel compelled to strap that big iron on your hip sounds like psychological issues to me.

[fdpaq0580]

How about if you have a policeman with you? :jester:

Only if he/she/other is on duty.

[Taltarzac725]

I went grocery shopping today and was wondering why I got some odd looks and realized that my rather new belt has a kind of mind of its own and it must have looked like I was very happy to see someone.


Kind of puts a new spin on the words "packing heat".


I can be kind of absent minded at times.


I will have to pay more attention to my new belt's position.


It is funny though.


I had hoped to add a little levity to this thread. I am glad that no one thought I was carrying a different kind of weapon. No calls to the police that I know of anyway.


And no I did not feel an urge to sing Henry VIII I am as I think codpieces were popular in his court.

[Mrprez]

How about if you have a policeman with you? :jester:

Darn autocorrect. Fixed.

[MrFlorida]

Well sorry so many got their feelings hurt with this new law, but it's now legal to open carry in Florida and your arguments are in vain.

[Taltarzac725]

Well sorry so many got their feelings hurt with this new law, but it's now legal to open carry in Florida and your arguments are in vain.

Until some tragedies turn the tide which will probably happen sooner rather than later.

[MrFlorida]

Until some tragedies turn the tide which will probably happen sooner rather than later.

It's a done deal, get over it !

[Taltarzac725]

It's a done deal, get over it !

Not even death is a done deal. But taxes still seems rather certain. Now where did I put my howitzer?

[BrianL99]

Common sense says follow the DATA. Where guns are legal, especially open carry, crime drops dramatically. Data can be your friend.

This is one of the most ludicrous assertions I've ever seen on ToTV.

You are approximately 20 times safer from "gun violence" in Europe, than you are in the USA. 20 times.

Among major countries, only Mexico, Venezuela & Brazil have a higher gun violence rate than the USA. Among "democratic countries", not one country has a gun violence rate in the same universe as the United States.

The data is all there for everyone to see.

There is one and only one reason, the USA lags behind the world in gun control and that's the NRA and their contribution to political parties and public discourse. Luckily for the USA, their influence (money) is in a free fall. Since the mid-2000's, their revenue is down almost 70% in real dollars. Membership is down even more.

Anyone or any group who asserts a 238 year old document, gives them the "right", is grasping at straws. Every single "right" granted by the US Constitution has been modified or diluted over the years, by a myriad of laws ... and rightfully so.

Common sense is taking over, although it might be a few years before the Kool-Aid drinkers accept that.

The 3 biggest myths in 21st Century USA, are: Guns make people safer, elections are rigged and "loud pipes save lives".

[fdpaq0580]

This is one of the most ludicrous assertions I've ever seen on ToTV.

You are approximately 20 times safer from "gun violence" in Europe, than you are in the USA. 20 times.

Among major countries, only Mexico, Venezuela & Brazil have a higher gun violence rate than the USA. Among "democratic countries", not one country has a gun violence rate in the same universe as the United States.

The data is all there for everyone to see.

There is one and only one reason, the USA lags behind the world in gun control and that's the NRA and their contribution to political parties and public discourse. Luckily for the USA, their influence (money) is in a free fall. Since the mid-2000's, their revenue is down almost 70% in real dollars. Membership is down even more.

Anyone or any group who asserts a 238 year old document, gives them the "right", is grasping at straws. Every single "right" granted by the US Constitution has been modified or diluted over the years, by a myriad of laws ... and rightfully so.

Common sense is taking over, although it might be a few years before the Kool-Aid drinkers accept that.

The 3 biggest myths in 21st Century USA, are: Guns make people safer, elections are rigged and "loud pipes save lives".

Well said, imho, with one correction. Those enjoying this thread should easily see that "common sense" is a myth. No such thing.

[fdpaq0580]

Well sorry so many got their feelings hurt with this new law, but it's now legal to open carry in Florida and your arguments are in vain.

My feelings aren't hurt. Just disappointed in our elected officials ... for now. And, as we have seen, laws can be changed. So, for now, you can strap that hogleg to your thigh and walk the streets exuding an air of menace.

[ElDiabloJoe]

This is one of the most ludicrous assertions I've ever seen on ToTV.

You are approximately 20 times safer from "gun violence" in Europe, than you are in the USA. 20 times.

Among major countries, only Mexico, Venezuela & Brazil have a higher gun violence rate than the USA. Among "democratic countries", not one country has a gun violence rate in the same universe as the United States.

The data is all there for everyone to see.

There is one and only one reason, the USA lags behind the world in gun control and that's the NRA and their contribution to political parties and public discourse. Luckily for the USA, their influence (money) is in a free fall. Since the mid-2000's, their revenue is down almost 70% in real dollars. Membership is down even more.

Anyone or any group who asserts a 238 year old document, gives them the "right", is grasping at straws. Every single "right" granted by the US Constitution has been modified or diluted over the years, by a myriad of laws ... and rightfully so.

Common sense is taking over, although it might be a few years before the Kool-Aid drinkers accept that.

The 3 biggest myths in 21st Century USA, are: Guns make people safer, elections are rigged and "loud pipes save lives".

Sounds like someone would rather be living in that paradise known as Europe.

By the way, the lobbyist organization that has caused the most damage to our country is still going strong: The Association of Trial Lawyers of America.

The ATLA has spent about $120 Million dollars lobbying since 2000 up through mid 2025.
There's a reason there are so many lawsuits, so many restrictions, and so many rich lawyers.

Just a moment... (https://www.opensecrets.org/federal-lobbying/clients/summary?cycle=1999&id=D000000065)

[Taltarzac725]

Sounds like someone would rather be living in that paradise known as Europe.

By the way, the lobbyist organization that has caused the most damage to our country is still going strong: The Association of Trial Lawyers of America.

The ATLA has spent about $120 Million dollars lobbying since 2000 up through mid 2025.
There's a reason there are so many lawsuits, so many restrictions, and so many rich lawyers.

Just a moment... (https://www.opensecrets.org/federal-lobbying/clients/summary?cycle=1999&id=D000000065)

We do need to get more common sense and equity into our legal system. It does seem to have gone off the rails.

[BrianL99]

This is one of the most ludicrous assertions I've ever seen on ToTV.


There is one and only one reason, the USA lags behind the world in gun control and that's the NRA and their contribution to political parties and public discourse. Luckily for the USA, their influence (money) is in a free fall. Since the mid-2000's, their revenue is down almost 70% in real dollars. Membership is down even more.





The ATLA has spent about $120 Million dollars lobbying since 2000 up through mid 2025.
There's a reason there are so many lawsuits, so many restrictions, and so many rich lawyers.

Just a moment... (https://www.opensecrets.org/federal-lobbying/clients/summary?cycle=1999&id=D000000065)

Facts matter.

The Trial Lawyers have spent $120 Million since 2000?

The NRA has raised and spent over FIVE BILLION DOLLARS in that period.

Go look at the numbers: Just a moment... (https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/national-rifle-assn/summary?cycle=A&id=D000000082)

[Whatnext]

Sounds like someone would rather be living in that paradise known as Europe.

Have you ever lived in, worked in or visited Europe?

[fdpaq0580]

Facts matter.

The Trial Lawyers have spent $120 Million since 2000?

The NRA has raised and spent over FIVE BILLION DOLLARS in that period.

Go look at the numbers: Just a moment... (https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/national-rifle-assn/summary?cycle=A&id=D000000082)

Love it! I wonder how much of the $5 B the NRA spent was on trial lawyers.

[Pugchief]

Have you ever lived in, worked in or visited Europe?

Yes. And there's plenty of stabbing and other crime to make up for the lack of guns.

[Pugchief]

This is one of the most ludicrous assertions I've ever seen on ToTV.
Then you're not spending as much time on here as it seems...

You are approximately 20 times safer from "gun violence" in Europe, than you are in the USA. 20 times.
How about knife and machete violence?

Among "democratic countries", not one country has a gun violence rate in the same universe as the United States.

Canada effectively ended gun ownership a few years back, and the gun violence in Toronto and surrounding areas hasn't slowed down even a little. Because the criminals using them don't follow the law. Imagine that.

The 3 biggest myths in 21st Century USA, are: Guns make people safer, elections are rigged and "loud pipes save lives".

False, false and true.

[BrianL99]

The 3 biggest myths in 21st Century USA, are: Guns make people safer, elections are rigged and "loud pipes save lives".




False, false and true.


If you disputed the 1st one, I get it ... it's political and a huge portion of America doesn't look at the statistics or facts, because they have such a visceral reaction to losing their perceived "Constitutional Right".

They 2nd one? Every independent analysis of USA Elections, conclude that Election Fraud is miniscule. Even Republicans agree ... see attached.

The 3rd one? Every responsible Biker on earth, knows that's simply not true. If it were, Honda's & BMW's would be the most accident prone motorcycles on earth and they're not. Not even close. Both Harley Davidson and Indian Motorcycles have official disavowed the notion that "loud pipes save lives".

Stop saying "loud pipes save lives" - RevZilla (https://www.revzilla.com/common-tread/stop-saying-loud-pipes-save-lives?srsltid=AfmBOor7h39_j24FpKyEmqUTLxf6sgVu6hqy xLXyjSY31V9Fecmpd92R)

Loud Pipes Do Not Save Lives: The Facts You Need to Know (https://motoress.com/riding-tips/loud-pipes-do-not-save-lives-the-facts-you-need-to-know/?srsltid=AfmBOoojaGjP6yWBhIdxEFJtOuHcu5x_ZtbATs_pz tgyB7X1kG3prlha)

https://www.hemmings.com/stories/loud-pipes-save-lives-myth-or-fact/

LOUD PIPES / University research into loud pipes "myth" - Adventure Rider (https://www.advrider.com/university-research-into-loud-pipes-myth/)

https://www.indianmotorcycles.net/threads/loud-pipes-save-lives-is-a-myth.337259/

https://www.triumphrat.net/threads/do-loud-pipes-save-lives-research-tells-us-the-answer.1010228/

[Whatnext]

Yes. And there's plenty of stabbing and other crime to make up for the lack of guns.

Was asking ElDiabloJoe, and there is more knife crime in US than Europe. Fact.

[BrianL99]

Yes. And there's plenty of stabbing and other crime to make up for the lack of guns.

Was asking ElDiabloJoe, and there is more knife crime in US than Europe. Fact.

Please stop trying to confuse folks with FACTS. This is ToTV, facts don't matter.

From ChatGPT: attached.

[Pugchief]

Then which is it? A gun problem, or a USA problem?

[Taltarzac725]

Then which is it? A gun problem, or a USA problem?

Neither. It is a warped reading of the 2nd Amendment problem which is about a well-regulated militia. That is a group of people armed to the teeth in terms of 1798 weapons to act as a deterrent to wanna -be Julius Caesars of the 18th Century.

[JMintzer]

What, exactly, does a "whack job", look like? How do you know that he/she/it is actually going to pull the trigger? How do you know that the gun is even loaded, or real?
How do you know until said "whack job" actually discharges the weapon and a bullet is actually out of the muzzle that you aren't witnessing a stunt. Do you take him/her/it down first? And how would you feel if you, fueled by fear or anxiety shot first and found you had been too hasty and mistook a harmless YouTube prank and ended a life? And, when you f8re all the other gun towers who didn't know what you were shooting for and decide YOU are the shooter and fire in your direction?

No idea what a "whack job" looks like. I was quoting OBB. Ask her...

To the rest of your post, do you stay up at night inventing these ridiculous fantasy scenarios with no basis in reality?

[JMintzer]

It isn’t defined under that law. It could be as little as a sip.

Doubtful. Please cite a case where that has happened...

[JMintzer]

.08 is NOT A BIG difference.

It's a HUGE difference. One beer is nowhere near 0.08. 3-4 beers is a different story...

[JMintzer]

Not just me. But feeling somehow so insecure and impotent that you feel compelled to strap that big iron on your hip sounds like psychological issues to me.

Yup, it's a YOU issue. Projecting one's insecurities onto others is most certainly a psychological issue...

[JMintzer]

I went grocery shopping today and was wondering why I got some odd looks and realized that my rather new belt has a kind of mind of its own and it must have looked like I was very happy to see someone.


Kind of puts a new spin on the words "packing heat".


I can be kind of absent minded at times.


I will have to pay more attention to my new belt's position.


It is funny though.


I had hoped to add a little levity to this thread. I am glad that no one thought I was carrying a different kind of weapon. No calls to the police that I know of anyway.


And no I did not feel an urge to sing Henry VIII I am as I think codpieces were popular in his court.

You really think someone would call the police if they thought you were concealed carrying?

[JMintzer]

Neither. It is a warped reading of the 2nd Amendment problem which is about a well-regulated militia. That is a group of people armed to the teeth in terms of 1798 weapons to act as a deterrent to wanna -be Julius Caesars of the 18th Century.

And the 1A only counts with Quill & Ink and a hand operated printing press...

The PEOPLE owned CANNONS! They also owned the most sophisticated weapons of their time. Even automatic weapons. Puckle gun - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puckle_gun)

[Whatnext]

Much of Europe has become very "rapey" of late...

Still half the number of cases than US. to next worse country. Britain.

[BrianL99]

Neither. It is a warped reading of the 2nd Amendment problem which is about a well-regulated militia. That is a group of people armed to the teeth in terms of 1798 weapons to act as a deterrent to wanna -be Julius Caesars of the 18th Century.


When you read Amendments to the US Constitution, you begin reading on the 14th or 15th word. The first 13 words are incidental nonsense and don't count.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Then you're not spending as much time on here as it seems...
How about knife and machete violence?
Ten mass murder events using knives/machetes/other bladed weapons since 2009 in Europe. That's 10 mass murders spread across several countries.

Compare to the US, where there have been over 30 mass murders using firearms, only since January 2024, and 2025 isn't over yet.

Canada effectively ended gun ownership a few years back, and the gun violence in Toronto and surrounding areas hasn't slowed down even a little. Because the criminals using them don't follow the law. Imagine that.
Yes, you'd have to imagine that, since it's not true.

Canadian citizens are allowed to own firearms, but they must first obtain a firearms license and must adhere to strict regulations, including completing a firearms safety course and passing background checks for mental health and criminal history. Firearms are classified into non-restricted, restricted, and prohibited categories, with different rules for each. For example, a national freeze on the sale and transfer of most handguns is in place, and specific rifles and shotguns are classified as non-restricted.

A national freeze on SALE AND TRANSFER of "most handguns" does not end gun ownership. If you own a gun, you own it. You're an owner. You are a person who has gun ownership. You can't sell your pistol, or transfer your right to own it to someone else. But you can have your pistol - as long as you comply with the regulations regarding safety, background checks, and licensing.

[Pugchief]

Yes, you'd have to imagine that, since it's not true.

Canadian citizens are allowed to own firearms, but they must first obtain a firearms license and must adhere to strict regulations, including completing a firearms safety course and passing background checks for mental health and criminal history. Firearms are classified into non-restricted, restricted, and prohibited categories, with different rules for each. For example, a national freeze on the sale and transfer of most handguns is in place, and specific rifles and shotguns are classified as non-restricted.

A national freeze on SALE AND TRANSFER of "most handguns" does not end gun ownership. If you own a gun, you own it. You're an owner. You are a person who has gun ownership. You can't sell your pistol, or transfer your right to own it to someone else. But you can have your pistol - as long as you comply with the regulations regarding safety, background checks, and licensing.

Sorry, you're the one imagining. You can have a handgun in Canada only if you already have one (or you are a criminal).

The national handgun freeze, codified into law in December 2023, prohibits the sale, purchase, transfer, or importation of handguns by individuals, with limited exceptions for certain groups and purposes .

Handguns are not illegal in Canada. However, the legal framework has become restrictive:

Existing Owners: Individuals who lawfully possessed handguns before the freeze can continue to own and use them for purposes like target shooting and collecting.
Transfers: You cannot transfer a handgun to another individual unless they qualify for an exemption.
Registration Certificates: New registration certificates for handguns are not being issued to individuals, effectively preventing new ownership .

source (https://bcfirearmsacademy.ca/can-i-buy-a-handgun-in-canada-in-2025-understanding-the-national-handgun-freeze/)

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Sorry, you're the one imagining. You can have a handgun in Canada only if you already have one (or you are a criminal).

The national handgun freeze, codified into law in December 2023, prohibits the sale, purchase, transfer, or importation of handguns by individuals, with limited exceptions for certain groups and purposes .

Handguns are not illegal in Canada. However, the legal framework has become restrictive:

Existing Owners: Individuals who lawfully possessed handguns before the freeze can continue to own and use them for purposes like target shooting and collecting.
Transfers: You cannot transfer a handgun to another individual unless they qualify for an exemption.
Registration Certificates: New registration certificates for handguns are not being issued to individuals, effectively preventing new ownership .

source (https://bcfirearmsacademy.ca/can-i-buy-a-handgun-in-canada-in-2025-understanding-the-national-handgun-freeze/)

That's what I just said. You quoted the words I posted. Maybe re-read it. My response was to you claiming that "gun ownership" was mostly ended in Canada. NEW handgun ownership is prevented. But other firearms - rifles and shotguns - are not restricted, and people who already own handguns may keep them. I said that. You responded to it. Please re-read what I posted.

[fdpaq0580]

Then which is it? A gun problem, or a USA problem?

Just like some people are addicted to drugs, some Americans are addicted to guns. It's a compulsive disorder like gambling.

[fdpaq0580]

Yes. And there's plenty of stabbing and other crime to make up for the lack of guns.

You are deflecting. Stick to the subject ... guns.

[fdpaq0580]

No idea what a "whack job" looks like. I was quoting OBB. Ask her...

To the rest of your post, do you stay up at night inventing these ridiculous fantasy scenarios with no basis in reality?

No. I make them up on the spot. Entertainment, don't you think. Of course they are thoughtful responses to scenarios given by those I respond to. Fun really. I realize I will not change minds, but it's nice to voice a different point of view.
And I sleep pretty soundly. Thanks for asking.

[villagernewbie]

When you read Amendments to the US Constitution, you begin reading on the 14th or 15th word. The first 13 words are incidental nonsense and don't count.

Probably SCOTUS' biggest mistake. Just think if they had ruled differently, been consistent about it applying to "a well regulated militia" and how many more innocent people, especially children, would still be alive today.

[BrianL99]

Probably SCOTUS' biggest mistake. Just think if they had ruled differently, been consistent about it applying to "a well regulated militia" and how many more innocent people, especially children, would still be alive today.

Not their finest moment. Justice Scalia was an ego maniac, mired in historical and political muck. Not Reagan's finest appointment in my opinion.

[fdpaq0580]

Yup, it's a YOU issue. Projecting one's insecurities onto others is most certainly a psychological issue...

I think you may have missed something. The issue is guns and the desire/need/compulsion to openly display one's weapons is, imho, just plain foolishness. "That ain't me, babe". If one is so insecure that they feel they need to carry a gun and display it in public, I see that as a frightened person. Frighted people make mistakes under stress. Make bad choices. Avoid them. They are tragedies looking for a place to happen. They should be carrying a teddy bear instead of a gun, for everyone's safety.
Note: I have no real problem with gun ownership or concealed carry, in general. I just think that in 99.9×100% of the time it is unnecessary. Yeah, there is the miniscule chance that you may actually be in a situation where you might be able to help. Or, maybe not.

[ThirdOfFive]

Interesting thread! Lots of fear expressed that experience has, over and over again, disproved.

A few years back my wife and I, both holders of permits-to-carry, attended a Second Amendment rally on the grounds of the State Capitol in St. Paul, MN. Several hundred of us there and most were carrying, many openly (which is legal in Minnesota). Besides the exhibits, there were some pretty well-known speakers, both state and national.

There were cops there, too. Several uniformed LEOs were ringing the rally--all facing AWAY from the attendees. There was a cop among the attendees too; a St. Paul uniformed officer who was having just as good a time as the rest of us, checking out the exhibits and passing the time of day with attendees and presenters.

It occurred to me (and to probably most of the other attendees) that what we SAW there was diametrically opposite to what we had HEARD so often from various sources about the dangers of people carrying firearms. Several hundred armed citizens--and most of the cops, with the exception of the one enjoying the rally with the rest of us, had their backs turned. THEY knew of the danger--and it wasn't with us attendees.

[Pugchief]

You are deflecting. Stick to the subject ... guns.

Not deflecting; pointing out to the gun control proponents there are other weapons to commit violent acts that don't involve guns for the criminals that are hell-bent on doing so.

No. I make them up on the spot. Entertainment, don't you think. Of course they are thoughtful responses to scenarios given by those I respond to. Fun really. I realize I will not change minds, but it's nice to voice a different point of view.
And I sleep pretty soundly. Thanks for asking.

Pot, meet kettle. 90% of your comments are attempts at humor that deflect from the topic at hand.

[JMintzer]

Still half the number of cases than US. to next worse country. Britain.

Is that number "Per Capita" or "In Total". If it's "In Total", of course every country in Europe would have less, as their individual populations are dwarfed by the US...

[JMintzer]

No. I make them up on the spot. Entertainment, don't you think. Of course they are thoughtful responses to scenarios given by those I respond to. Fun really. I realize I will not change minds, but it's nice to voice a different point of view.
And I sleep pretty soundly. Thanks for asking.

"Thoughtful"? Not really. "Imaginative"? Most likely...

[JMintzer]

Probably SCOTUS' biggest mistake. Just think if they had ruled differently, been consistent about it applying to "a well regulated militia" and how many more innocent people, especially children, would still be alive today.

First, you would have to know what was meant by "A well regulated militia"...

It was using the language of the time. "Well regulated" meant "In good working order".

And militia "was" the people... Not some standing army...

It wasn't for hunting. It was so "the people" could protect themselves from a tyrannical government. You know, like the one they had just fought a very blood war from which to escape.

[JMintzer]

I think you may have missed something. The issue is guns and the desire/need/compulsion to openly display one's weapons is, imho, just plain foolishness. "That ain't me, babe". If one is so insecure that they feel they need to carry a gun and display it in public, I see that as a frightened person. Frighted people make mistakes under stress. Make bad choices. Avoid them. They are tragedies looking for a place to happen. They should be carrying a teddy bear instead of a gun, for everyone's safety.
Note: I have no real problem with gun ownership or concealed carry, in general. I just think that in 99.9×100% of the time it is unnecessary. Yeah, there is the miniscule chance that you may actually be in a situation where you might be able to help. Or, maybe not.

I've already addressed this "so called need". It's nonsense. Concealed carry can be VERY uncomfortable. For some, open carry is the correct option.

Your "compulsion, insecurity, frightened person" accusation is pure projection.

[Taltarzac725]

Interesting thread! Lots of fear expressed that experience has, over and over again, disproved.

A few years back my wife and I, both holders of permits-to-carry, attended a Second Amendment rally on the grounds of the State Capitol in St. Paul, MN. Several hundred of us there and most were carrying, many openly (which is legal in Minnesota). Besides the exhibits, there were some pretty well-known speakers, both state and national.

There were cops there, too. Several uniformed LEOs were ringing the rally--all facing AWAY from the attendees. There was a cop among the attendees too; a St. Paul uniformed officer who was having just as good a time as the rest of us, checking out the exhibits and passing the time of day with attendees and presenters.

It occurred to me (and to probably most of the other attendees) that what we SAW there was diametrically opposite to what we had HEARD so often from various sources about the dangers of people carrying firearms. Several hundred armed citizens--and most of the cops, with the exception of the one enjoying the rally with the rest of us, had their backs turned. THEY knew of the danger--and it wasn't with us attendees.

If you were on a shark sighting I doubt if many people would jump in the water when you yelled "Shark!". Or that you get many gun nuts running into gun shows and emptying their weapons.

[BrianL99]

Or that you get many gun nuts running into gun shows and emptying their weapons.


There's no better evidence of the need for strong gun control legislation, than sitting in the parking lot of a gun show and just watching.

[Taltarzac725]

There's no better evidence of the need for strong gun control legislation, than sitting in the parking lot of a gun show and just watching.

I had a crush on a beautiful daughter of a gun nut who lived about one mile from us across a meadow in Reno, Nevada. I would have to cross a ditch and barbed wire to see the lady as well. And there were dogs in the neighborhood.


The stunning woman invited me on a horseback ride as she was borrowing a horse from a different neighbor. I rode behind her and she seemed to know just what I was thinking and said if I could get to her that night.... Her father was home from his truck driving gig though. I chickened out that night but ran into her again when she lived on campus at the University of Nevada, Reno. She married a rancher eventually. I hope she does not read Talk of the Villages, though.


She had made it a point to show me all the hurdles I would have to leap to get to her including the bunch of rifles on her father's living room wall, the barbed wire, the dog, and the ditch. Not to mention that very dark meadow.

[JMintzer]

There's no better evidence of the need for strong gun control legislation, than sitting in the parking lot of a gun show and just watching.

Pray tell... What happens?

I've been to dozens of gun shows and nothing nefarious has ever happened in the parking lot.

Once, someone was arrested for trying to make a "Straw Purchase", but that was applauded by all in attendance... But that's all I've ever experienced...

[JMintzer]

I had a crush on a beautiful daughter of a gun nut who lived about one mile from us across a meadow in Reno, Nevada. I would have to cross a ditch and barbed wire to see the lady as well. And there were dogs in the neighborhood.


The stunning woman invited me on a horseback ride as she was borrowing a horse from a different neighbor. I rode behind her and she seemed to know just what I was thinking and said if I could get to her that night.... Her father was home from his truck driving gig though. I chickened out that night but ran into her again when she lived on campus at the University of Nevada, Reno. She married a rancher eventually. I hope she does not read Talk of the Villages, though.


She had made it a point to show me all the hurdles I would have to leap to get to her including the bunch of rifles on her father's living room wall, the barbed wire, the dog, and the ditch. Not to mention that very dark meadow.

Your continued use of the term "gun nut" is interesting...

[Decadeofdave]

I don't like open carry, so I renew my concealed carry as needed.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

I don't like open carry, so I renew my concealed carry as needed.

As long as I don't have to see it, I applaud your excercising of your 2nd Amendment rights. I just don't want to have to see it. I think people who "need" to carry weapons out visibly and blatantly, if they're not law enforcement on duty, are creepy. The only upside to them, is that I know who to run away from.

[dewilson58]

My teacher told me, guns kill people.

I told her, my pencil failed the test.

:pepper2:

[Taltarzac725]

My teacher told me, guns kill people.

I told her, my pencil failed the test.

:pepper2:

You probably would not bring a pencil in a gun fight though.

[fdpaq0580]

Not deflecting; pointing out to the gun control proponents there are other weapons to commit violent acts that don't involve guns for the criminals that are hell-bent on doing so.

"Not delecting"? "Pointing out" other things to take the focus off the subject at hand is classic miss direction, like a magician waving one hand so you don't see what he is hiding in the other hand IS most definitely defecting!
"Well, what about", followed by insertion of something else to think about is a great indicator of deflection.
The simple reality is that humans have been committing acts of violence since the dawn of our existence and over millenia we have figured various methods and created tools to try to even the odds and make it easier. Guns are a cheap way for those who want to avoid facing the person you want to hurt/kill. Shoot them through a window, from across the street or from a rooftop. No confrontation. No blood. Very little exertion. Very impersonal. Just point and pull the trigger. No actual fighting/danger involved in the act. No special skills required, like in any martial arts.