The Very Real Cost of Tea

[Guest]

Per ABC News: The administration is fighting S&P's indication that it is about to lower our credit rating - not because of current debt - but, because of their belief that partisan gridlock will prevent our country from reaching consensus on a sane future fiscal policy. See: http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2011/08/govt-official-us-expecting-sp-downgrade.html

Welcome to the new world of kamikaze democracy --> a world where all of us will pay real money for the stupid rhetoric of a few. Oh, and let's not forget the political pandering of politicians who actually know better - but, who lack the courage to stand up to idiot ideologues.

I just finished, "In the Garden of the Beasts." http://www.amazon.com/Garden-Beasts-Terror-American-Hitlers/dp/0307408841/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1312588458&sr=8-1

There is a strong parallel to be found here.

Harbor

[Guest]

Maybe people can read S&P's release for themselves without editorial. How would that be?

http://blogs.wsj.com/marketbeat/2011/08/05/sp-downgrades-u-s-debt-rating-press-release/

[Guest]

...Welcome to the new world of kamikaze democracy --> a world where all of us will pay real money for the stupid rhetoric of a few. Oh, and let's not forget the political pandering of politicians who actually know better - but, who lack the courage to stand up to idiot ideologues....:bigbow::bigbow::bigbow:

[Guest]

Well, it has happened...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/05/downgrade-us-standard-and-poors_n_919867.html

:BigApplause:

We will all pay more due to the inability of our government to agree to less spending AND more revenue.

In some countries, people who support such policies, die for less.

When Demint[ed], Bachmann, Palin, Cantor plus Boner (sic) and the rest of the clowns bend to their applause, I hope they have enough grace to do it in front of a guillotine.

And please - don't confirm your ignorance by laying this on the Democrats.

While they (the Dems) could have (and should have) responded better - the Bush war(s) and tax cuts plus a the greed of Wall Street lenders (who were never asked to pay a fair share on their earnings or their misjudgements) were at the root of this fiscal recklessness.

But, in the end, it was the Tea Party and the failure of more knowledgeable Republicans who just cost us all a ****load of money.

Damn them.

[Guest]

Maybe people can read S&P's release for themselves without editorial. How would that be?

http://blogs.wsj.com/marketbeat/2011/08/05/sp-downgrades-u-s-debt-rating-press-release/

You sir, demean the word,"idiot."

[Guest]

Maybe people can read S&P's release for themselves without editorial. How would that be?

http://blogs.wsj.com/marketbeat/2011/08/05/sp-downgrades-u-s-debt-rating-press-release/You'd better believe that S&P weighed the words they used in their downgrade press release very, very carefully. For me, a whole lot is said in just a couple of the paragraphs in the middle of the release...

The downgrade reflects our opinion that the fiscal consolidation plan that Congress and the Administration recently agreed to falls short of what, in our view, would be necessary to stabilize the government’s medium-term debt dynamics.

More broadly, the downgrade reflects our view that the effectiveness, stability, and predictability of American policymaking and political institutions have weakened at a time of ongoing fiscal and economic challenges.

The political brinksmanship of recent months highlights what we see as America’s governance and policymaking becoming less stable, less effective, and less predictable than what we previously believed.

Elected officials remain wary of tackling the structural issues required to effectively address the rising U.S. public debt burden in a manner consistent with a ‘AAA’ rating and with ‘AAA’ rated sovereign peers.

The difficulty in framing a consensus on fiscal policy weakens the government’s ability to manage public finances and diverts attention from the debate over how to achieve more balanced and dynamic economic growth in an era of fiscal stringency and private-sector deleveraging.

These words can be summarized very easily. The plan that was recently negotiated by members of the U.S. Congress isn't nearly enough to slow the unsustainable escalation of U.S. public debt.

We don't believe that the American government has the ability or inclination to make the obviously needed changes.

Watch how much this costs us. Watch how just the loss of that single letter 'A' will weaken our economy and further add to our national debt. Watch how this single move will push us closer and more quickly to the inevitable massive changes in our way of life. Forget who to blame for how we got here. Thinking about who has the will and the ability to get us out of this problem is the more important question. I'd say that those who state their case in simple phrases and single syllable words aren't the ones we need right now.

I wish I could say that this announcement would change the positions of the political ideologues in elected office on both the left and right, but I don't think it will. They are neither smart enough to understand nor at all interested in serving the people who elected them.

It's a sad state of affairs that even now, the partisans will argue is the fault of their political opponents. Even worse, even more alarming, is that there are some who will argue that a downgrade in our credit rating isn't all that important. One of them is running for President.

[Guest]

You'd better believe that S&P weighed the words they used in their downgrade press release very, very carefully. For me, a whole lot is said in just a couple of the bullet points in the middle of the release...

The downgrade reflects our opinion that the fiscal consolidation plan that Congress and the Administration recently agreed to falls short of what, in our view, would be necessary to stabilize the government’s medium-term debt dynamics.

More broadly, the downgrade reflects our view that the effectiveness, stability, and predictability of American policymaking and political institutions have weakened at a time of ongoing fiscal and economic challenges...

These words can be summarized very easily. The plan that was negotiated by the various political factions in the Congress isn't anywhere near enough to slow the unsustainable escalation of U.S. public debt....and....We don't believe that the American government has the ability or inclination to make the obvioiusly needed changes.

Watch how much this costs us. Watch how just the loss of that single letter 'A' will add further to out national debt.

I wish I could say that this announcement would change the positions of the political ideologues on both the left and right, but I don't think it will. They are neither smart enough to understand nor at all interested in serving the people who elected them.

It's a sad state of affairs that even now, the partisans will argue is the fault of their political opponents.

Very well stated.

This could have been avoided...it was totally unnecessary. Both parties are at fault...but, let's not forget who made an issue out of an non-issue.

Where is the courage to deal with real problems without an ideological framework?

Taxes need to be simplified and raised so that everyone pays a fair share (and that also should result in lower taxes for small businesses). The growth of entitlements need to be slowed. Wars need to end. Stupid regulations based on special interest politics need to be curtailed. And weapon systems designed to fight armies that no longer exist need to be abandoned.

Want to keep us secure for the next 100 years??? - start investing in sending kids to school to learn how to hack and stop hackers. That is where the next world war will be fought.

[Guest]

...Taxes need to be simplified and raised so that everyone pays a fair share (and that also should result in lower taxes for small businesses). The growth of entitlements need to be slowed. Wars need to end. Stupid regulations based on special interest politics need to be curtailed. And weapon systems designed to fight armies that no longer exist need to be abandoned...Wow! If Congress could just pass these thoughts in a simple one-page bill, we'd be well on our way.

:BigApplause::BigApplause::BigApplause:

[Guest]

Yes, the horrible truth is that the S&P down grade will cost every one of us. It will cripple those who can least afford to pay more. Investment will lessen and unemployment will increase. Just today Mellon Bank instituted a new fee assessed against those whose deposits are larger than 50 million. Money, 2.3 trillion so far, is flooding out of the market.

And yes, the tea party faction is responsible. Their unprecedented intransigence changed the rules and could not be countered because of the insane circumstance of tying budget cuts to the debt ceiling time bomb. There are lots of reasons why the tea party Congressmen are just plain dumb, but their greatest shortcoming is their failure to understand the essential nature and absolute necessity for consumer and investor confidence. It's a fundamental principle of Economics 101 for God's sake!

It may never be harder to wait until Congress reconvenes, but I suggest we wait. It's better than street riots. I will go way out on a limb here, but I am making the following prediction:

President Obama will work night and day to force Congress to pass an additional budget cutting measure before the end of this year. It will be styled like the plan he originally endorsed, including some new revenue and some new limitations on entitlements. It will be a compromise. And it WILL be large enough, at least 4 trillion, to guarantee with appropriate fanfare, that S&P restore the triple A rating.

This must happen. And because it must, the President's endless pursuit of it will become part of his legacy. But the irony of all of this will be that it will not be the President who will have compelled S&P to restore the top rating. After all, the President does not have the constitutional power to do any such thing. The President will simply funnel the loud demands to the ears of Congressmen, the collective voice of the American people.

[Guest]

...it WILL be large enough, at least 4 trillion, to guarantee with appropriate fanfare, that S&P restore the triple A rating...I certainly hope that your prediction comes true. But the restoration of the AAA rating almost certainly will not. S&P was slow and judicial in finally downgrading U.S. debt. It will be equally careful in considering a upgrade.

In the past, it has taken between 9 and 18 years for sovereign states to regain their AAA rating once they had been downgraded. Arguably our financial situation would still be dire, even with a $4 trillion plan to reduce deficits. Even with that amount, the U.S. would still have annual deficits of approximately $800 billion per year, which would be added to the national debt. That means that our national debt would still be increasing at a rate of almost 6% a year, even with the $4 trillion deficit reduction plan you speak of.

[Guest]

The S&P obviously by virtue of their claim of lack of confidence are not interested in political jousting.
In my opinion there is nothing Obama can do or say to restore the earned lack of confidence to earn a restoration of the AAA rating.
Just look at the circus of the last few weeks.

AAA ratings are the most coveted of all ratings...government or corporate wise. A corporate leader losing a AAA rating would be out of office Monday morning.

The issue is not R or D....it is not taking responsibility and doing what ever it takes to preserve the stature of this nation.
The politically acceptable in Washington has just been notified that it is financially unacceptable to those who understand the reality of FAILING to be financially responsive.

btk

[Guest]

Billy -

You guys with your smug, stupid rhetoric have scr-wed all of us.

You might not like me...but I was ready to invest over 2 g's into The Villages. That was good for you and everyone else who bought in.

Now, I'm on the sidelines until the dust settles. I will not be the only one....

What does that mean? In the short term...a bunch of money to folks who want to sell...plus the developers (who want to sell)...plus folks who just bought in (as their homes could decline inprice - even as they are still in construction).

Ignorant political decisions have consequences. Ask Iranians.

Biily Boy...Keep looking into the mirror and smiling...

I'm sure this will make you feel better.

Harbor

[Guest]

You sure like to call people bad names.Better watch out it don't come back to bite you. chilout

[Guest]

Please girlfriends - I've been attacked by y'all before...

And, I elected not to respond...until real harm came to our country. If you need the quotes..well - they are on this forum.

Now, personally - I think it's shortsighted to imply that an honest exchange of opinions might result in anything other than an honest exchange of opinions.

I'm sure you agree.

Your forever pal.

Harbor

[Guest]

Well, it has happened...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/05/downgrade-us-standard-and-poors_n_919867.html

:BigApplause:

We will all pay more due to the inability of our government to agree to less spending AND more revenue.

In some countries, people who support such policies, die for less.

When Demint[ed], Bachmann, Palin, Cantor plus Boner (sic) and the rest of the clowns bend to their applause, I hope they have enough grace to do it in front of a guillotine.

And please - don't confirm your ignorance by laying this on the Democrats.

While they (the Dems) could have (and should have) responded better - the Bush war(s) and tax cuts plus a the greed of Wall Street lenders (who were never asked to pay a fair share on their earnings or their misjudgements) were at the root of this fiscal recklessness.

But, in the end, it was the Tea Party and the failure of more knowledgeable Republicans who just cost us all a ****load of money.

Damn them.

will you ever stop blaming the president Bush?

[Guest]

Please girlfriends - I've been attacked by y'all before...

And, I elected not to respond...until real harm came to our country. If you need the quotes..well - they are on this forum.

Now, personally - I think it's shortsighted to imply that an honest exchange of opinions might result in anything other than an honest exchange of opinions.

I'm sure you agree.

Your forever pal.

Harbor
I see your from Chicago. Nuff said.chilout

[Guest]

I see you're from special ed...

Oh - when you get your panties in a bunch over my comments - remember, we all give as well as we get. Just some are smarter than others.

Unfortunately - you are not among the latter.

This wouldn't bother me...but, as of tonight - it is costing all of us money.

[Guest]

:bigbow::bigbow::bigbow:

Oh I have thought about it and reading this particular thread this morning just cements a few things for me

You applaud the man who comes on here and throws verbal arrows at anyone who does not agree with HIM

After decades of spending by both parties with no thought...you blame a group of folks who want to stop that spending for the rating drop.

After watching the current President spend most of his presidency paying people off with our money to insure passage of a cost ridden bill (conveniently forgotten) you blame folks who want to stop the spending

Both parties, including your beloved Democrats...no, especially your beloved Democrats have spent us to this point, and you and the vile mouth poster blame one group of people.

Keep applauding the tone of his post which is a mirror image of our congress !

Keep preaching and blaming and just ignore the chances we get (like the politically motivated airport debacle).....keep preaching not to vote incumbents in and allowing yourself an out every time to continue this madness....I cannot believe that folks actually think this downgrade came as a result of the Tea Party..that is just plain stupid. This is a judgement, not only on money, but on our politicians and from my recollection the group you blame is brand new and those who espouse "tea party thinking" have been in office for about 8 months and according to you two, in 8 months they have brought us down.

You and the person who damns anyone who gets in his way actually just pontificate to us poor know nothings and attempt to make everyone feel guilty for wanting this crap to stop.

I am not a "tea partier" or whatever the label you folks want to choose (and name calling and labeling seems to be part of the game with you folks) and do not applaud what they do at times but I do applaud the attitude.

And despite you two knowing what we obviously dont understand, I think...I said think...it is a bit more complicated and less black/white than you two want to make it.

YOU two condemn idealogy but use it to preach to everyone else. You two condemn partisan politics and practice it on here always.

To blame a movement like the tea party for this rating drop is extreme narrow minded thinking in my opinion.

[Guest]

You sir, demean the word,"idiot."

Ridicule. Alinsky would be proud of you. Democrats have the most vile and vulgar people under their heathen tent.

[Guest]

I see you're from special ed...

Oh - when you get your panties in a bunch over my comments - remember, we all give as well as we get. Just some are smarter than others.

Unfortunately - you are not among the latter.

This wouldn't bother me...but, as of tonight - it is costing all of us money.

Hm. Must be sleeping in this morning. :mornincoffee:

[Guest]

“The fact that we are here today to debate raising America’s debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a sign that the U.S. Government can’t pay its own bills. It is a sign that we now depend on ongoing financial assistance from foreign countries to finance our Government’s reckless fiscal policies. … Increasing America’s debt weakens us domestically and internationally. Leadership means that ‘the buck stops here. Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better.”

Barack Obama, 2006. Sounds like a tea partier, no?

[Guest]

Billy -

You guys with your smug, stupid rhetoric have scr-wed all of us.

You might not like me...but I was ready to invest over 2 g's into The Villages. That was good for you and everyone else who bought in.

Now, I'm on the sidelines until the dust settles. I will not be the only one....

What does that mean? In the short term...a bunch of money to folks who want to sell...plus the developers (who want to sell)...plus folks who just bought in (as their homes could decline inprice - even as they are still in construction).

Ignorant political decisions have consequences. Ask Iranians.

Biily Boy...Keep looking into the mirror and smiling...

I'm sure this will make you feel better.

Harbor


...what brings on such a threatening message as this?

[Guest]

...what brings on such a threatening message as this?

He is quite the charmer, huh? :D

[Guest]

He is quite the charmer, huh? :D Yeah, he "was ready to invest over 2 g's into The Villages. That was good for you and everyone else who bought in." Hope you all aren't on suicide watch over the loss. By the way, where i come from 2 g's is $2000.00. what am I missing here?

[Guest]

You sir, demean the word,"idiot."

What is wrong with you? What did I say to deserve the vitriol here? I don't even know you and you act like I disrespected your sister. A bit overboard on the anger, I would say.

[Guest]

Wow,,,,TOTV is getting crazy, and not that much fun anymore, its ok to disagree, but why be so disagreeable?

[Guest]

...what brings on such a threatening message as this?

Kitten:

I learned a long time ago, to never threaten. In my world - we never do that.

That I call ya'll out for ignorant and costly rhetoric - well, that is what goes on here. You and Billy and the golfer and that guy with the cat...you've been rude and insulting to folks who differ from your opinion for a long, long time. If you need me to provide you with examples (which I have already done) just ask.

When I first joined this forum, I thought it was a nice place to discuss honest political opinions. Then I caught on. This is a place where folks just insult one another. Unfortunately, much of this is done out of ignorance and from a decidedly right wing perspective.

You know, I would debate you in a rational and reasonable way...but, for whatever the reason - the moderators have let this place descend to the WWF. Well, in terms of politics - I've never really worried about being the popular guy.

My Tea Party post (several days old) was only resurrected because the post I made today on religion was too informed for you to attack. Kinda pathetic, huh?

You think of the left as weak kneed liberals. Well, based on Obama's performance - that is an easy assumption. But, some of us -while we might support the President as he is our last best choice - well, we remember the costs of real social disruption.

While, I have disassociated myself from the hardcore left years ago - I know what it is capable of. It is the same kind of horror that the hard core right (remember Oklahoma?) has demonstrated. Smug and self-satisfied comments will not protect you or me.

I love London - I used to visit it every year. The riots sadden me. But - the rage that comes out from wealth being concentrated in so few hands with a huge number of folks left with no hope of mobility...well, stuff happens.

I love our country - but, I recognize that if we continue on the road we've been on...this country will explode in ways that make the last week in London look like Disney in late September.

You think of me as rude and abusive. I'm the best freaken friend you've got as hubris is a dangerous thing and our country is on the verge of a huge paradigm shift.

My guess is that you and your other pals don't fully understand what I'm saying. It's the same lack of intellect that causes you to resurrect this old post instead of addressing my most recent post.

Read Lenin. Read Marx. Read Mao. Read Marat and pray a Danton will emerge.

We have been so comfortably free for so, so long. Hopeless people are inherently tribal (see my most recent post on religion).

You think I'm rude? I'm honest and you guys - though you might not know it today - are in a remake of "The Wages of Fear."

Harbor

[Guest]

Some people would think you are a little unstable and should be investigated by the authorities. I believe that your just a little man looking for attention. You do not impress me at all.

[Guest]

Lastly - if you think I'm chicken little...this is how it will happen....

It will start with minorities and the poor rioting in urban areas. That will be a side show.

The real threat will be your left-wing kids who will hack our power grid, our nuclear plants, our fiscal infrastructure.

They will succumb to egalitarian ideals. They are well meaning and naive. And they are capable of horrible actions.

We waste tax dollars on weapon systems to fight the Soviets 30 years ago.

You want national security? Pay for kids to go to college, major in computer science and then join the NSA. They are the Seal Team and Delta Force of the future.

Your best friend -

Harbor

[Guest]

Some people would think you are a little unstable and should be investigated by the authorities. I believe that your just a little man looking for attention. You do not impress me at all.

Again - you sir, are an idiot.

[Guest]

Again - you sir, are an idiot.

What a classy guy.

[Guest]

Some people would think you are a little unstable and should be investigated by the authorities. I believe that your just a little man looking for attention. You do not impress me at all.

Lastly - you're so blinded by your preconceptions that you think I am advocating this kind of violence. Cholo - I'm not. I want nothing but for all of us to live in safety.

That means addressing social inequities before they incite violence. And it also means investing in education that will protect us into the future.

I know these are ideas you've never been presented with from Fox news (sic).

Again, I've said ya'll need to start reading. This is no joke and not a casual insult. Think of me as your Paul Revere.

The future is here and it's very scary.

Imbalanced or not, I remain,

Harbor

[Guest]

Lastly - you're so blinded by your preconceptions that you think I am advocating this kind of violence. Cholo - I'm not. I want nothing but for all of us to live in safety.

That means addressing social inequities before they incite violence. And it also means investing in education that will protect us into the future.

I know these are ideas you've never been presented with from Fox news (sic).

Again, I've said ya'll need to start reading. This is no joke and not a casual insult. Think of me as your Paul Revere.

The future is here and it's very scary.

Imbalanced or not, I remain,

Harbor
You talk alot but actually say little, you know that don't you? :beer3:

Have another one.

[Guest]

You talk alot but actually say little, you know that don't you? :beer3:

Have another one.

It's just that you don't get it. It's like Chamberlain responding to Hitler.

Again, please watch less Fox and try reading more.

[Guest]

It's just that you don't get it. It's like Chamberlain responding to Hitler.

Again, please watch less Fox and try reading more.

You assume alot, you know that don't you? Maybe that is your problem, assumptions? I seriously do not believe that you see the trees from the Forrest.

I do not watch television regularly and i read constantly. I also do not see any reason to try to impress people. You seem like a small person to me. I could be wrong, but that is my impression of you. Sorry if I am mistaken.

[Guest]

You assume alot, you know that don't you? Maybe that is your problem, assumptions? I seriously do not believe that you see the trees from the Forrest.

I do not watch television regularly and i read constantly. I also do not see any reason to try to impress people. You seem like a small person to me. I could be wrong, but that is my impression of you. Sorry if I am mistaken.

We can stop now..unless you really feel the need to continue. You think I'm unbalanced and I know your opinions are more based on an adherence to what makes you feel good about yourself and not based on reality.

My guess is that you think I wish you ill. I don't.

But, there are moments in history where bad choices have real consequences.

If I am wrong...well, you can stay smug and OK.

On the other hand - if I'm right, the Villages might not stay happy-town.

Have you ever visited forums about the Villages from your non-Village neighbors? I have. I've also spoken to some of these folks. Frankly, their opinions are not comforting.

Don't kill the messenger here. I want to move to the Villages. I want to have a relaxed and comfortable retirement. But - I fear that we are at risk of significant social dislocation.

If I insult you -- well, that reflects my own inability to cope with (what I perceive as) smug ignorance.

As I said in my post on religion, I grew up in the the world's largest community of death camp survivors. I also grew up with folks involved in seriously violent stuff. I have come to the conclude that being "civilized" is just a veneer. Humans are very capable of terrible stuff.

I hope I'm wrong. But, based on facts - I think I'm just being a realist.

Sleep well, brother.

Harbor

[Guest]

We don't normally get involved with the Political Talk forum. When members opt in it is 'at your own risk' and with Politics it is prone to getting heated up in here especially in this day and age. If you opt in and decide you no longer want to be a part of this forum you can unsubscribe to the forum.

That being said, we still abide by the terms of service that users agree to when joining the site that everyone needs to maintain respect for each other and ultimately agree to disagree on topics before it gets direct and personal. When discussions turn toward each other and off topic we are compelled to get involved. That can include deleting posts, threads, and/or suspending accounts. None of which is our desire as we would rather spend time working on ways to improve the site and add value to the users vs. moderating members.

Please keep discussions on topic even if you don't agree with one's opinion. Great discussions and debate are always welcome in the Political Forum.

Thanks in advance.

[Guest]

We don't normally get involved with the Political Talk forum. When members opt in it is 'at your own risk' and with Politics it is prone to getting heated up in here especially in this day and age. If you opt in and decide you no longer want to be a part of this forum you can unsubscribe to the forum.

That being said, we still abide by the terms of service that users agree to when joining the site that everyone needs to maintain respect for each other and ultimately agree to disagree on topics before it gets direct and personal. When discussions turn toward each other and off topic we are compelled to get involved. That can include deleting posts, threads, and/or suspending accounts. None of which is our desire as we would rather spend time working on ways to improve the site and add value to the users vs. moderating members.

Please keep discussions on topic even if you don't agree with one's opinion. Great discussions and debate are always welcome in the Political Forum.

Thanks in advance.
Of course you are right. I apologize for my part in the above posts. I should not fight back when insulted. I should just step back and take a deep breath and do nothing until I calm down.
Thanks for the reminder Admin.:thumbup:

[Guest]

If at any time anyone feels like discussions require Admin involvement don't hesitate to contact us. We would rather be the punching bag vs. members.:boxing2:

[Guest]

We don't normally get involved with the Political Talk forum. When members opt in it is 'at your own risk' and with Politics it is prone to getting heated up in here especially in this day and age. If you opt in and decide you no longer want to be a part of this forum you can unsubscribe to the forum.

That being said, we still abide by the terms of service that users agree to when joining the site that everyone needs to maintain respect for each other and ultimately agree to disagree on topics before it gets direct and personal. When discussions turn toward each other and off topic we are compelled to get involved. That can include deleting posts, threads, and/or suspending accounts. None of which is our desire as we would rather spend time working on ways to improve the site and add value to the users vs. moderating members.

Please keep discussions on topic even if you don't agree with one's opinion. Great discussions and debate are always welcome in the Political Forum.

Thanks in advance.

Your post appeared timely. IMHO there was only one poster who was out of order with his rants From my point of view posters like this ought to be ignored because you can tell by their rebuttals that they haven't even read what another poster said. Finaaly Admin I am appreciative that you folks are aware that some venting is a necessary part of the political forum; provided of course its healthy venting vis a vis sick responses

Thank you again.

[Guest]

Your post appeared timely. IMHO there was only one poster who was out of order with his rants From my point of view posters like this ought to be ignored because you can tell by their rebuttals that they haven't even read what another poster said. Finaaly Admin I am appreciative that you folks are aware that some venting is a necessary part of the political forum; provided of course its healthy venting vis a vis sick responses

Thank you again.

I'm sure this is aimed at me. A bit of a history lesson.

I joined this forum just a few days ago. This is how I was greeted:


Quote:
Originally Posted by harbor53 View Post
1. The debt ceiling has been raised 3 times under this administration without a problem. It is only a problem now because the House wants to use it as leverage to address broader budget issues. This "manufactured crisis" is a stupid game that places the entire world economy at risk. We have already done serious damage to our economy as well as our leverage in the world with this silly partisan debate.

2. We actually have a very real budget crisis involving the nation's debt as a percentage of GDP was well as an potentially explosive problem involving the concentration of wealth and capital in fewer hands.

First, the debt. No party has the high ground on this issue. We were spent into a hole by the last administration and the bursting of the real estate bubble with the resulting Wall Street crisis made a bad situation worse. This is not Obama's debt or Bush's debt - this is our debt and we are all going to have to accept pain to resolve it.

That will mean higher taxes. Hopefully, this will be in the form of simplifying the tax code and curtailing deductions/subsidies - plus, lowering rates for small business as well as encouraging business investment in this country (no more PO box overseas tax shelters). Still, if you insist on 1950's tax rates, you better insist on 1950's government programs -- otherwise, you need to accept the hypocrisy in your belief system.

And -- of course, lowering the debt will require significant reductions in spending. And - those who think that entitlements and the military will not be touched have spent a day too long in Fantasyland. That is where most money is spent.

My own belief system leans me to look for discretionary spending cuts that weigh more heavily on those who can afford it. I think it is a mistake to cut spending in education (unless you like living in the third world) and in those government programs that protect our health plus those programs that root out fraud and abuse.

Those value judgment choices need to be made by folks who take governance seriously and who know the fine art of compromise and horse-trading. Ideologs need not apply. They will not help us get out of this royal mess we are in.

Lastly, the increasing gap between rich and poor needs to be addressed and soon. It is a social powder keg. Moreover, ours is a consumer-based economy. Want to get the economy moving again, shift some money to folks who will spend it instead of those who want to move more of their portfolio to gold. I'm not talking about handouts to the poor - I am talking incentives to move capital back into the system and into the hands of folks who will spread it around.

I am not a left-wing fanatic (well, not all of the time) - but, if you value your freedom and liberty you need to understand that you can't always keep what you want (Rollings Stones reference here). It is a lesson learned the hard way in France, Russia, and over and over in poorer countries.

Lesson over - class dismissed. Sorry for any hurt feelings.

Cheers!
Harbor

12RideHD responded:

Such a total lack of understand of our free market system and the root cause of our problems. We have the highest standard of living in the world, only 50% of our people pay taxes and we need more wealth distribution. Very sad thinking. It actually scares me that you vote.
__________________
Then Villagegolfer quoted this and added:

"Amen!!!"

+++++++++++++++

Well - at that point, I figured rudeness was what was expected.

This was also based on reading the bullying of others who expressed something other than a right-wing opinion. It bothered me that these folks wouldn't engage - it's not unusual for liberals to fold when faced with direct attacks. I'm not a liberal - though I share many of the same values. So I figured if my non-personal posts were greeted with language like "It scares me that you vote" and that opinion is applauded by another posted - well, then gloves are off.

So I was rude. I didn't start out that way - but, I figure that what is OK for the Gander is OK for the Goose.

I'll accept criticism that I was personal and rude as long as you accept that I was not the guy who started this kind of nonsense on this forum - I just raised it to its logical conclusion.

There are recent posts here about how quickly the veneer of civility can easily disappear. To a degree, my rudeness was trying to provoke bad behavior. If we succumb to anger and rhetoric here - what will happen when things are really at stake.

I really fear that we (not just in the US) are at a tipping point. We need to adjust spending and revenues. We need to address the problem of an increasing division between rich and poor. We also really, really need to slow population growth because there is only so much stuff to go around.

Rent the DVD of Children of Men. The film is interesting - but, the extras are really special. There is a long documentary on the likelihood of mass human migration due to environmental/economic forces.

I also really value the writings of Thomas Friedman.

While my methods might not be appreciated - sometimes catalysts are important - especially when change is inevitable. I am normally far more reasoned - but, I fear we have just stepped into a vortex of dislocation or as Yeats' wrote:

"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned.
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity."

I apologize for my rudeness - but, there was a context for it.

Harbor

[Guest]

Kitten:

I learned a long time ago, to never threaten. In my world - we never do that.

That I call ya'll out for ignorant and costly rhetoric - well, that is what goes on here. You and Billy and the golfer and that guy with the cat...you've been rude and insulting to folks who differ from your opinion for a long, long time. If you need me to provide you with examples (which I have already done) just ask.

When I first joined this forum, I thought it was a nice place to discuss honest political opinions. Then I caught on. This is a place where folks just insult one another. Unfortunately, much of this is done out of ignorance and from a decidedly right wing perspective.

You know, I would debate you in a rational and reasonable way...but, for whatever the reason - the moderators have let this place descend to the WWF. Well, in terms of politics - I've never really worried about being the popular guy.

My Tea Party post (several days old) was only resurrected because the post I made today on religion was too informed for you to attack. Kinda pathetic, huh?

You think of the left as weak kneed liberals. Well, based on Obama's performance - that is an easy assumption. But, some of us -while we might support the President as he is our last best choice - well, we remember the costs of real social disruption.

While, I have disassociated myself from the hardcore left years ago - I know what it is capable of. It is the same kind of horror that the hard core right (remember Oklahoma?) has demonstrated. Smug and self-satisfied comments will not protect you or me.

I love London - I used to visit it every year. The riots sadden me. But - the rage that comes out from wealth being concentrated in so few hands with a huge number of folks left with no hope of mobility...well, stuff happens.

I love our country - but, I recognize that if we continue on the road we've been on...this country will explode in ways that make the last week in London look like Disney in late September.

You think of me as rude and abusive. I'm the best freaken friend you've got as hubris is a dangerous thing and our country is on the verge of a huge paradigm shift.

My guess is that you and your other pals don't fully understand what I'm saying. It's the same lack of intellect that causes you to resurrect this old post instead of addressing my most recent post.

Read Lenin. Read Marx. Read Mao. Read Marat and pray a Danton will emerge.

We have been so comfortably free for so, so long. Hopeless people are inherently tribal (see my most recent post on religion).

You think I'm rude? I'm honest and you guys - though you might not know it today - are in a remake of "The Wages of Fear."

Harbor

WOW. I dont think I have ever been rude or abusive on this forum to anyone.
As far as being comfortable and free for so long and all of the other acusations that you have made about me-
~ Every thing that I have, I have worked very hard for. I dont really have much anyway...live in a 900 square foot home which hasnt had any remodel since I moved in 30 years ago. We have only bought one new car in that time -most of our cars were well ove 200,000 before we got fifty bucks for them at the junk yard. My daughter still drives our oldest car which is a used camry with 300,108 miles on it. I dont have cable tv or a washer and dryer or a dishwasher. We only have one bathroom in this home where we raised 3 children. I own two pair of shoes-one pair for work and the other for non work or I go barefoot on hot days. We chose to spend our money on providing quality education for our children, instead of relying on the tax dollars and judgment of others. We also gave sacrificially, to legitimate charities ...
~I seriously doubt that you are the best freakin friend I've got. Jesus is my best freakin friend, always has been and He has provided me with other "kittens" as friends who are really LIONS of faith and kindness and generosity and unconditional love. I have PEACE that doesnt come from this world and its "things". My life is full of HOPE and most of my greatest desires have been fullfilled. As far as lack of intellect, I was the top of my class in college, for what that is worth. You can learn many things and have many letters after your name, but if you cannot think for yourself, it is all worthless.
~As far as your post on religion, it was unintelligible, but I chose not to point that out.
~Read Lenin, Marx and Mao? Why would I waste my time on the writings of men who were dictators and whose actions spoke loud enough to tell me what they were made of?
~You stated...the rage that comes out from wealth being concentrated in so few hands? Theft is theft, no matter what the reason. Having rage, does not legitimize criminal activity.

~By the way, you have offered to provide me with examples of my rudeness on this forum...I would like to take you up on that offer if you please.

[Guest]

WOW. I dont think I have ever been rude or abusive on this forum to anyone.
As far as being comfortable and free for so long and all of the other acusations that you have made about me-
~ Every thing that I have, I have worked very hard for. I dont really have much anyway...live in a 900 square foot home which hasnt had any remodel since I moved in 30 years ago. We have only bought one new car in that time -most of our cars were well ove 200,000 before we got fifty bucks for them at the junk yard. My daughter still drives our oldest car which is a used camry with 300,108 miles on it. I dont have cable tv or a washer and dryer or a dishwasher. We only have one bathroom in this home where we raised 3 children. I own two pair of shoes-one pair for work and the other for non work or I go barefoot on hot days. We chose to spend our money on providing quality education for our children, instead of relying on the tax dollars and judgment of others. We also gave sacrificially, to legitimate charities ...
~I seriously doubt that you are the best freakin friend I've got. Jesus is my best freakin friend, always has been and He has provided me with other "kittens" as friends who are really LIONS of faith and kindness and generosity and unconditional love. I have PEACE that doesnt come from this world and its "things". My life is full of HOPE and most of my greatest desires have been fullfilled. As far as lack of intellect, I was the top of my class in college, for what that is worth. You can learn many things and have many letters after your name, but if you cannot think for yourself, it is all worthless.
~As far as your post on religion, it was unintelligible, but I chose not to point that out.
~Read Lenin, Marx and Mao? Why would I waste my time on the writings of men who were dictators and whose actions spoke loud enough to tell me what they were made of?
~You stated...the rage that comes out from wealth being concentrated in so few hands? Theft is theft, no matter what the reason. Having rage, does not legitimize criminal activity.

~By the way, you have offered to provide me with examples of my rudeness on this forum...I would like to take you up on that offer if you please.

Hang in there Katz. You didn't owe this explanation to anyone, but it was awesome, none the less.

[Guest]

WOW. I dont think I have ever been rude or abusive on this forum to anyone.
As far as being comfortable and free for so long and all of the other acusations that you have made about me-
~ Every thing that I have, I have worked very hard for. I dont really have much anyway...live in a 900 square foot home which hasnt had any remodel since I moved in 30 years ago. We have only bought one new car in that time -most of our cars were well ove 200,000 before we got fifty bucks for them at the junk yard. My daughter still drives our oldest car which is a used camry with 300,108 miles on it. I dont have cable tv or a washer and dryer or a dishwasher. We only have one bathroom in this home where we raised 3 children. I own two pair of shoes-one pair for work and the other for non work or I go barefoot on hot days. We chose to spend our money on providing quality education for our children, instead of relying on the tax dollars and judgment of others. We also gave sacrificially, to legitimate charities ...
~I seriously doubt that you are the best freakin friend I've got. Jesus is my best freakin friend, always has been and He has provided me with other "kittens" as friends who are really LIONS of faith and kindness and generosity and unconditional love. I have PEACE that doesnt come from this world and its "things". My life is full of HOPE and most of my greatest desires have been fullfilled. As far as lack of intellect, I was the top of my class in college, for what that is worth. You can learn many things and have many letters after your name, but if you cannot think for yourself, it is all worthless.
~As far as your post on religion, it was unintelligible, but I chose not to point that out.
~Read Lenin, Marx and Mao? Why would I waste my time on the writings of men who were dictators and whose actions spoke loud enough to tell me what they were made of?
~You stated...the rage that comes out from wealth being concentrated in so few hands? Theft is theft, no matter what the reason. Having rage, does not legitimize criminal activity.

~By the way, you have offered to provide me with examples of my rudeness on this forum...I would like to take you up on that offer if you please.

Katz,
You are awesome and I admire you.:eclipsee_gold_cup:

[Guest]

This thread is now closed.