Can they get any dumber?????

[Guest]

Big Government Republicans in Virginia Vote to Outlaw Contraceptives, Require Vaginal Probes for Abortion-Seekers Pensito Review (http://www.pensitoreview.com/2012/02/15/big-govt-republican-pols-in-virginia-vote-to-outlaw-contraceptives-require-vaginal-probes-for-abortion-seekers/)

When are men going to leave womens rights to women.

[Guest]

VillagerII, old buddy, you do have to keep up with the news a little better. A "watered down" version was passed. Read the attached link. Personally, I still feel it is ridiculous for a state government to mandate any kind of ultrasound for what should be a woman's personal choice. It is the reactionary right that is doing this and it is not welcomed by thinking Americans. All this will come back to bite the reactionary right in the butt in November when they lose AGAIN.

Va. House Scraps Invasive Pre-Abortion Requirement - ABC News (http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/va-house-waters-pre-abortion-ultrasound-bill-15768790)

[Guest]

VillagerII, old buddy, you do have to keep up with the news a little better. A "watered down" version was passed. Read the attached link. Personally, I still feel it is ridiculous for a state government to mandate any kind of ultrasound for what should be a woman's personal choice. It is the reactionary right that is doing this and it is not welcomed by thinking Americans. All this will come back to bite the reactionary right in the butt in November when they lose AGAIN.

Va. House Scraps Invasive Pre-Abortion Requirement - ABC News (http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/va-house-waters-pre-abortion-ultrasound-bill-15768790)

Thank you and I stand corrected. They did see the stupidity in their action.

[Guest]

Well, they are still stupid to require any kind of ultrasound for a woman's personal choice.

[Guest]

Well, they are still stupid to require any kind of ultrasound for a woman's personal choice.

It just shows an arrogance beyond even what the holler than thow nut cases would do. These kind of people make themselves authority over GOD and good sense.

[Guest]

Thank you and I stand corrected. They did see the stupidity in their action.

I beg to differ. They did not see the stupidity of their action until they were ridiculed by John Stewart (The Daily Show) and Saturday Night Live. Only then did they recognize their own stupidity.

[Guest]

MrMark +1 on that statement. As Forest Gump once said, "Stupid is as stupid does," or words to that effect.

[Guest]

it is interesting to see men giving opinions on matters which concern not only women but their unborn children...having known several women who are still undergoing mental health treatment for the results of having had abortions, it is a kindness to a confused and frightened woman to have all the education on the matter of abortion that she needs...many women, when given the opportunity to see the child they are carrying, will know instinctively that they cannot go through with the abortion...it is still their choice, but they have been given all the information! in addition, the medications to which you keep referring as contraceptives, are not contraceptives...they only work after the child has already been conceived! so get your facts straight.

[Guest]

it is interesting to see men giving opinions on matters which concern not only women but their unborn children...having known several women who are still undergoing mental health treatment for the results of having had abortions, it is a kindness to a confused and frightened woman to have all the education on the matter of abortion that she needs...many women, when given the opportunity to see the child they are carrying, will know instinctively that they cannot go through with the abortion...it is still their choice, but they have been given all the information! in addition, the medications to which you keep referring as contraceptives, are not contraceptives...they only work after the child has already been conceived! so get your facts straight.

Chachacha, I have often wondered the same thing. There are alot of men on here who will defend a woman's right to an abortion, as if their own life depended on it. Kinda wonder sometimes if there aren't men out there who have emotional problems due to a personal experience with abortion. Who knows.
Anyway, I have also posted the same sentiment, about the instinctive knowledge that a woman has concerning abortion. A woman doctor responded something to the effect of who did I think I was to speak for all women...
ALSO, most abortion facilities DO PERFORM an Ultrasound anyway, to determine the stage of pregnancy. Many states have a requirement to get abortions done prior to a certain stage of pregnancy. Since abortion is such a nice industry that always follows the rules...Abdominal ultrasound &/or Transvaginal (used when the abdominal one is not conclusive) ulrasounds help them to know that they aren't breaking any laws.

[Guest]

it is interesting to see men giving opinions on matters which concern not only women but their unborn children...having known several women who are still undergoing mental health treatment for the results of having had abortions, it is a kindness to a confused and frightened woman to have all the education on the matter of abortion that she needs...many women, when given the opportunity to see the child they are carrying, will know instinctively that they cannot go through with the abortion...it is still their choice, but they have been given all the information! in addition, the medications to which you keep referring as contraceptives, are not contraceptives...they only work after the child has already been conceived! so get your facts straight.

That sort of paragraph is about as clear as mud!

[Guest]

Chacha - *some* contraceptives work that way - not all of them.

And, just to provide some balance, you said that you have known seceral women are are still undergoing mental health treatment.. Interesting. For one, that's private information so I'll have to assume you know these women personally. This runs directly counter to my own experience. Not a single woman I've ever known who has had an abortion has required mental health treatment. In all honesty, sometimes I wonder if some of that are women who are being told they are a victim (and, to be fair, it's not just abortions - LOTS of people are constantly being told by 'advocates' they they are victims of some kind or another).

Chacha, I've been countering a lot of your "facts" lately. I don't intend this in any kind of mean-spirited way but, to be honest, I think you've been sold a bill of goods.

[Guest]

Chacha - *some* contraceptives work that way - not all of them.

And, just to provide some balance, you said that you have known seceral women are are still undergoing mental health treatment.. Interesting. For one, that's private information so I'll have to assume you know these women personally. This runs directly counter to my own experience. Not a single woman I've ever known who has had an abortion has required mental health treatment. In all honesty, sometimes I wonder if some of that are women who are being told they are a victim (and, to be fair, it's not just abortions - LOTS of people are constantly being told by 'advocates' they they are victims of some kind or another).

Chacha, I've been countering a lot of your "facts" lately. I don't intend this in any kind of mean-spirited way but, to be honest, I think you've been sold a bill of goods.

WOW. You certainly know alot of women on a personal level...personally enough to know what their history of abortion is and also their history of needing mental treatment or not. Or could it be that they aren't sharing the later with anyone??? Maybe you are being lied to?!

[Guest]

That sort of paragraph is about as clear as mud!

I understood Chachacha's points very well. Do you think you might have asked her to clarify what she was saying if you were unsure, instead of your inexplicable rudeness?

[Guest]

Now thats rude.

[Guest]

To be honest, I don't believe I was being rude. I did not doubt her experiences. I *did* jump to a conclusion based on the information she gave - that she most likely knew these people personally. The only bit I really disputed was her implication that all birth control works post-conception.

To the best of my knowledge, I know or have known about a half-dozen women who have had an abortion. I suspect that I know a lot more who have kept that information private. Not a single one of them has ever required or sought therapy due to their abortion. The closest you could possibly come is the one that I know who DESPERATELY needs therapy - but her condition existed long before her abortion and is most likely due to a combination of genetic and environmental factors. I'm not bad-mouthing her at all - she really does need help but thinks all therapy is "quackery".

Old friends, my ex-wife and others. All of them have had abortions - only one each, just in case you were wondering. The response I usually get from them when the whole "post abortion symdrome" issue comes up is anything from laughter (i.e. how arrogant to assume that because SOME may have trouble with abortion, ALL *must*) to irritation and/or anger (i.e. Don't tell me how I feel - I'll tell YOU thankyouverymuch).

[Guest]

Thank you and I stand corrected. They did see the stupidity in their action.

No they didn't. Their Gov wants to be VP nominee and knew if they passed this bill he could kiss that goodbye. Repubs never do anything in the peoples interests...just their own. :doh:

[Guest]

I am glad to see that one of the uber-conservative Tea Partiers sees the light when she said about women who decide on an abortion: "it is still their choice".

Obviously an enlightened conservative does exist.

[Guest]

buggyone, i DID NOT say that i want it to be their choice, only that this requirement does not interfere with their choice....so i am not really as "enlightened" as you give me credit for...djplong, two things. first, the contraceptives in question in the virginia law are the morning after pill and other abortion-causing pills, not regular hormonal contraceptives which prevent pregnancy... i don't know about the IUD, but that also prevents a fertilized egg from implanting, thus killing it....secondly, i know of all these women from working at a mental health center for four years and one from personal friendship....of course that does not happen to every woman, but it does happen a lot.

[Guest]

"buggyone, i DID NOT say that i want it to be their choice, only that this requirement does not interfere with their choice....so i am not really as "enlightened" as you give me credit for..."

So, Tea Party ChaCha wants women's own bodies to be controlled by mainly male politicians in Washington DC? Wow, that is archaic for a modern woman, in my opinion.

[Guest]

"buggyone, i DID NOT say that i want it to be their choice, only that this requirement does not interfere with their choice....so i am not really as "enlightened" as you give me credit for..."

So, Tea Party ChaCha wants women's own bodies to be controlled by mainly male politicians in Washington DC? Wow, that is archaic for a modern woman, in my opinion.

You, and all pro-abortionists, always forget the innocent life in your equation. Some people find that callous and slightly monstrous. I am one. I'm sorry.

[Guest]

Richie: I'm going to go out on a limb and be quite honest in a way that will probably get me attacked. But I'm also going to admit to something in the hopes that, although you'll disagree with me, you'll understand me better.

Remember, before I say this, that I have two daughters so don't jump to conclusions.

At conception, it's "life". Human life? Well, it has the *potential*, if everything goes right, to grow up like any other human. But, no, I do not equate a fertilized egg the same as a fully-born person.

That's not to say I don't give a damn - remember, I have two daughters.

But I've cleaned up a miscarriage - and that was the most graphic demonstration to me.

Do I know where that line is? No - and I'll be the first to admit it.

Does it mean that I think someone should be able to walk into a clinic at 8 1/2 months and get an abortion? Hell no. IMO, you had plenty of time to think about it before then.

But when I see a fertilized egg or blastocyte or anything that early on in development, it looks more like hope, potential, blueprints - that sort of thing. What I do NOT see is a thinking, *sentient* human being. Make no mistake - I see the *potential*, but in the same way that an acorn is not a tree, a seed isn't a flower, a piece of sheet metal isn't a car or an undeveloped negative isn't a photograph. I mean, we can freeze fertilized eggs and thaw them out years later. You can't do that with a person (at least not yet).

Go ahead and take your shots.

You can call me "pro-abortion" but that won't make it true. As I said to my wife when she wondered my my ex's rantings didn't get to me as much as she thought they might, I said "She can call me a rhododendron - doesn't mean I'm going to pollenate".

[Guest]

Richie: I'm going to go out on a limb and be quite honest in a way that will probably get me attacked. But I'm also going to admit to something in the hopes that, although you'll disagree with me, you'll understand me better.

Remember, before I say this, that I have two daughters so don't jump to conclusions.

At conception, it's "life". Human life? Well, it has the *potential*, if everything goes right, to grow up like any other human. But, no, I do not equate a fertilized egg the same as a fully-born person.

That's not to say I don't give a damn - remember, I have two daughters.

But I've cleaned up a miscarriage - and that was the most graphic demonstration to me.

Do I know where that line is? No - and I'll be the first to admit it.

Does it mean that I think someone should be able to walk into a clinic at 8 1/2 months and get an abortion? Hell no. IMO, you had plenty of time to think about it before then.

But when I see a fertilized egg or blastocyte or anything that early on in development, it looks more like hope, potential, blueprints - that sort of thing. What I do NOT see is a thinking, *sentient* human being. Make no mistake - I see the *potential*, but in the same way that an acorn is not a tree, a seed isn't a flower, a piece of sheet metal isn't a car or an undeveloped negative isn't a photograph. I mean, we can freeze fertilized eggs and thaw them out years later. You can't do that with a person (at least not yet).

Go ahead and take your shots.

You can call me "pro-abortion" but that won't make it true. As I said to my wife when she wondered my my ex's rantings didn't get to me as much as she thought they might, I said "She can call me a rhododendron - doesn't mean I'm going to pollenate".

You should have your own TV talk show. No one on this site talks truth like you do. I think, but don't want to commit that the lack of the ability to use a complex thought process, is the reason for so many to stand on being PERFECTLY 100% RIGHT when in so many cases they are either following superstitious beliefs or guessing. Thanks for this article as I am Pro-Life in my heart and mind, but I support the right to choose for anyone so inclined to do so. Even though God's word says to leave the business of GOD to GOD, the so called Christians on this site become judge/jury/condemner for anyone not following their interpretation of the beginning of life. As a Christian, I find it shameful to have such arrogance.

[Guest]

TVII - to be honest some of the "God" arguments fall a little flat on me. Specifically saying how birth control that prevents implantation of a fertilized egg is in some way similar to abortion or should be banned.

1/3 of all pregnancies, from what I read, never implant. This means that, using that logic, "God" kills 1/3 of all 'babies' created - a far worse tally than anything people come up with.

That being said, I *personally* don't think "God" works that way.

I *do* know that, "back in the day", abortion was considered a private matter until the time of 'the quickening' - which was believed to be when the soul entered the fetus - and that tended to 'coincide' with being able to feel movement, kicking, etc.

[Guest]

You, and all pro-abortionists, always forget the innocent life in your equation. Some people find that callous and slightly monstrous. I am one. I'm sorry.

I do not want to get into this again. I know your viewpoints and I know you will never change them - as you know mine on the subject.

Pro-Choice people (like me) feel it is a personal choice a woman makes without having politicians make the decision for her.

[Guest]

Buggy - this'll be a shocker for you.. I used to be *ardently* pro-life.

[Guest]

I do not want to get into this again. I know your viewpoints and I know you will never change them - as you know mine on the subject.

Pro-Choice people (like me) feel it is a personal choice a woman makes without having politicians make the decision for her.

The women, the womens family, the womens doctor, but never the voting public. This is not a situation where we all get together to determine what hour the bars will close. It is a private matter.

[Guest]

i am a woman, i know very well that the choices i make about when to be sexual have consequences...no woman nor man has the right to deny the unborn the right to life....too many women are using abortion as if it were simple birth control, and that is a disgusting mark on our national character. of course some men think this is great because it takes the onus off them to support or care for an unwanted child, so is that REALLY choice for a woman?
the answer to these questions is personal responsibility and education about the facts of life, preferably from well-informed parents, and supported by a moral society.

[Guest]

I do not want to get into this again. I know your viewpoints and I know you will never change them - as you know mine on the subject.

Pro-Choice people (like me) feel it is a personal choice a woman makes without having politicians make the decision for her.

I know what you're saying. I know what DJ is saying. I even know what V is saying.

But to me, you left the baby out of the equation again in your sentence above. There's no excuse for it. I'm not going to say "IMHO"; there's just no excuse for it.

Now, the growing human life is classified as "a potential for life"??

I will pray for you all.

[Guest]

1-My belief that life begins at conception comes from the scientific evidence-not religious belief.
Scientifically speaking, life begins at conception.
"c : an organismic state characterized by capacity for metabolism, growth, reaction to stimuli, and reproduction" (Life - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/life)

Biological characteristics of living things:
Complex organization
Metabolism
Responsiveness
Growth
potential for reproduction
Biology: Characteristics of Living Things (http://www.cliffsnotes.com/study_guide/Characteristics-of-Living-Things.topicArticleId-8741,articleId-8578.html)

I can supply hundreds of links to support the exact same truth. Science has been my life for as long as I can remember. Plants are living things, animals are living things, unborn children are living things.

2-I have never JUDGED anyone for having an abortion. As a Christian, especially as a Christian, I have learned that we all make mistakes, but there is always forgiveness. We ALL have sinned and I for one, continue to sin on a daily basis. Being a Christian doesn't make me perfect! It just makes me a person whose sins (past, present and future) have been washed away FOREVER! It is not a license to sin or act better than others. How could I possibly think that I am better than anyone else? Forgiveness is available to however asks for it. We all sin, and not always intentionally. Jesus said from the cross-"Father forgive them, FOR THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO".
I am very sad to think that others on this forum would consider me arrogant regarding the issue of when life begins. My passion is for the life of the unborn who cannot speak for themselves. Someone needs to do it. Others speak out against using animals in research, because the animals cannot speak for themselves. I don't know what goes on in the minds of these animals, but I don't think that their defenders are arrogant.

[Guest]

1-My belief that life begins at conception comes from the scientific evidence-not religious belief.
Scientifically speaking, life begins at conception.
"c : an organismic state characterized by capacity for metabolism, growth, reaction to stimuli, and reproduction" (Life - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/life)

Biological characteristics of living things:
Complex organization
Metabolism
Responsiveness
Growth
potential for reproduction
Biology: Characteristics of Living Things (http://www.cliffsnotes.com/study_guide/Characteristics-of-Living-Things.topicArticleId-8741,articleId-8578.html)

I can supply hundreds of links to support the exact same truth. Science has been my life for as long as I can remember. Plants are living things, animals are living things, unborn children are living things.

2-I have never JUDGED anyone for having an abortion. As a Christian, especially as a Christian, I have learned that we all make mistakes, but there is always forgiveness. We ALL have sinned and I for one, continue to sin on a daily basis. Being a Christian doesn't make me perfect! It just makes me a person whose sins (past, present and future) have been washed away FOREVER! It is not a license to sin or act better than others. How could I possibly think that I am better than anyone else? Forgiveness is available to however asks for it. We all sin, and not always intentionally. Jesus said from the cross-"Father forgive them, FOR THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO".
I am very sad to think that others on this forum would consider me arrogant regarding the issue of when life begins. My passion is for the life of the unborn who cannot speak for themselves. Someone needs to do it. Others speak out against using animals in research, because the animals cannot speak for themselves. I don't know what goes on in the minds of these animals, but I don't think that their defenders are arrogant.

I still think you are the catsmeow. You have probably seen this, but just in case:

What the Bible says about Abortion! (http://www.bible.ca/s-Abortion.htm)

[Guest]

Huh? I checked that link and it says pregnancy after rape *never* happens! It quotes "0 out of 4500" cases with nothing even beginning to look like an attribution.

[Guest]

I still think you are the catsmeow. You have probably seen this, but just in case:

What the Bible says about Abortion! (http://www.bible.ca/s-Abortion.htm)

I have, but thanks for the refresher! I love the little hand!
Here's an interesting read concerning the next step after abortion becomes no big deal...AFTER BIRTH ABORTIONS (They prefer not to use INFANTICIDE because it has such negative connotations. :cold:
Ethicists Argue for Acceptance of After-Birth Abortions | TheBlaze.com (http://www.theblaze.com/stories/ethicists-argue-in-favor-of-after-birth-abortions-as-newborns-are-not-persons/)