Do We All Live On The Same Planet?

[ijusluvit]

I'm stunned that my mind, my logic, and my life experience is so different from that of the spokesmen of the NRA.

Their promised first "meaningful contribution" to the nation's response to Sandy Hook is to support arming more people with more guns.

How is it possible to conclude this when there are two unchanged axioms throughout human history:

1) The more weapons man possesses, the more violence and death occurs.

2) The more sophisticated and deadly weapons are, the more serious injuries and death occur.

Someone has to refute these two realities before I will begin to question my sanity, but again, I'm astounded that there is such a divergence of opinion on this.

Oh! The first of my kids is arriving! Merry Christmas everyone!

[2BNTV]

I'm stunned that my mind, my logic, and my life experience is so different from that of the spokesmen of the NRA.

Their promised first "meaningful contribution" to the nation's response to Sandy Hook is to support arming more people with more guns.

How is it possible to conclude this when there are two unchanged axioms throughout human history:

1) The more weapons man possesses, the more violence and death occurs.

2) The more sophisticated and deadly weapons are, the more serious injuries and death occur.

Someone has to refute these two realities before I will begin to question my sanity, but again, I'm astounded that there is such a divergence of opinion on this.

Oh! The first of my kids is arriving! Merry Christmas everyone!

:agree: You are very sane.

I don't think more firearms are needed to be worn by everyone. Are we as a society, to look at each other where I need to protect myself against everybody?

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to you and yours.

[Uptown Girl]

I don't profess to know what the best decision is for any of us, or all of us as a country. I can't imagine that one decision can cover all circumstances. Do we limit the TYPE of weapon one can own? Will that limit carnage?

I am glad there are those who have never had the need to own/learn how to handle/carry a gun for protection. May they never have to face a different scenario.

All the words that can be said have been said before. You know I do not originate them.

We all know the slogan, " Guns don't kill people. People kill people."

We know that those who have the desire to cause chaos and death will attempt to do so by whatever means they can.... if not guns, then fire, planes, etc. or perhaps a homemade bomb strapped to their bodies before entering a location to detonate. We only have to look about our world, remember or read history to see that. One only has to search the internet for evil, creative ideas.... do we ban the internet too? We all know that only good people follow the rules anyway.

Having said that, and meaning no disrespect to anyone, I would NOT keep/accumulate accessible firearms in a home with a member who has psychological/ emotional or mental problems, no matter of what origin nor what treatment may be in place.

Very sad that it now is too late for a Mother to make different choices.
I can only add my prayers for peace and comfort to the families.

[eweissenbach]

"The only way to combat a bad man with a gun, is a good man with a gun".

So it sounds as though the NRA is advocating a gunfight at the OK Corral solution to gun violence. They believe teachers and administrators should be armed. Now think about it - a madman with assault weapons enters a classroom. By the time the teacher recognizes a threat and pulls a weapon out of their desk, or wherever, the madman has already mowed down a half dozen children, including, perhaps the armed teacher. If the teacher avoids being killed in the initial volley, he/she and the madman engage in an old fashioned gunfight in a crowded classroom. Yep, that will solve all our problems! The LEADERSHIP of the NRA is out of touch with the members of their own organization, and in another world from the rest of America. Good grief!

[buggyone]

It would be interesting to hear some of the gun advocats speak their words of encouragement to the NRA idea of arming schoolteachers and administrators as well as college age students being allowed to carry handguns to classes.

[Bob45]

You may not like guns, want a gun or want others to have them. You may feel the same way about God. But when someone breaks into your house the first thing you do is call someone who has a gun and pray they get there on time...

[manaboutown]

http://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/pubs/pdf/WP-Tough-Targets.pdf

http://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybell/2012/02/21/disarming-the-myths-promoted-by-the-gun-control-lobby/

http://www.anncoulter.com/columns/2012-12-19.html#read_more

[eweissenbach]

You may not like guns, want a gun or want others to have them. You may feel the same way about God. But when someone breaks into your house the first thing you do is call someone who has a gun and pray they get there on time...

Are you implying that someone who is interested in common sense gun control is also a nonbeliever in God? And are you implying that someone who calls the police because someone breaks in, should therefore believe in the concept of teachers and students being armed in schools? Please clarify your beliefs, because I am offended by what I read into your remarks.

[ugotme]

"The only way to combat a bad man with a gun, is a good man with a gun".

So it sounds as though the NRA is advocating a gunfight at the OK Corral solution to gun violence. They believe teachers and administrators should be armed. Now think about it - a madman with assault weapons enters a classroom. By the time the teacher recognizes a threat and pulls a weapon out of their desk, or wherever, the madman has already mowed down a half dozen children, including, perhaps the armed teacher. If the teacher avoids being killed in the initial volley, he/she and the madman engage in an old fashioned gunfight in a crowded classroom. Yep, that will solve all our problems! The LEADERSHIP of the NRA is out of touch with the members of their own organization, and in another world from the rest of America. Good grief!

Not totally agreeing with the NRA nor with you!
The point (which, of course, no one can guarantee) is that if a teacher had a gun and was trained in its use - perhaps - PERHAPS the gunmen could have been stopped. If the madman had killed a half dozen maybe the others would have been spared.

Obviously no one knows.

There are NO easy answers!

[eweissenbach]

Not totally agreeing with the NRA nor with you!
The point (which, of course, no one can guarantee) is that if a teacher had a gun and was trained in its use - perhaps - PERHAPS the gunmen could have been stopped. If the madman had killed a half dozen maybe the others would have been spared.

Obviously no one knows.

There are NO easy answers!

You are correct, obviously no one knows AND there are NO easy answers. It is however, good to look deeply and with objectivity into these issues rather than jump to easy conclusions based on preconcieved notions.

[blueash]

Not totally agreeing with the NRA nor with you!
The point (which, of course, no one can guarantee) is that if a teacher had a gun and was trained in its use - perhaps - PERHAPS the gunmen could have been stopped. If the madman had killed a half dozen maybe the others would have been spared.

Obviously no one knows.

There are NO easy answers!

And PERHAPS that gunman would have quickly dispatched the teacher or mall cop in the hallway and now has another weapon and more bullets for his/her killing spree. You see PERHAPS works both ways, perhaps. But it defies logic to have gun totin' teachers as your line of defense against the repetition of last Friday. It IMO is also important they we don't try to find a solution to this one episode and not look at the bigger picture of gun deaths in America. Avoid the kind of simplistic cure that taking off our shoes would make air flight safe because of one use of shoes to bring down a plane.

[ijusluvit]

Not totally agreeing with the NRA nor with you!
The point (which, of course, no one can guarantee) is that if a teacher had a gun and was trained in its use - perhaps - PERHAPS the gunmen could have been stopped. If the madman had killed a half dozen maybe the others would have been spared.

Obviously no one knows.

There are NO easy answers!

Yes, there are answers. Do NOT be distracted by hollow arguments. You can find an example of violence which 'proves" or 'disproves' every argument.

The NRA would like us to spend our time debating armed guards in schools and then our resources implementing the plan. But wait! There were two armed guards in Columbine High School on that awful day. Neither was able to prevent any of the slaughter.

The answers are as simple as always. They are in the original post. Reduce the number and deadly potential of weapons and regulate their availability to the general public. The amount and severity of violence will AUTOMATICALLY be reduced. Sure there are many other things which might help, but what could be more sensible than uniform gun control?

[tpop1]

I'm not a gun owner, not an IRA member, just a worried Grandpa!!!

This is my opinion......

1) Deranged people have been shooting up public locations killing innocent people... Isn't this Terrorism???

2) Nothing is in place or on the near horizon to stop this,

3) Even with stringent gun control, these people will have access to weapons, the black market will provide...just like with drugs,

4) One of these deranged people walked into Sandy Hook Elementry School and killed 26 innocents,

5) No more than 26 deaths would have occured and perhaps many less would have died if that deranged person had met someone, anyone with a gun to stop him.

6) I've never heard of one innocent being hurt by protectors in those locations where armed guards are present.

7) If President Obama's daughters are protected by armed guards, why not my grandchildren.

Until we reach Utopia, I want my grandchildren PROTECTED, by an armed policeman guarding the single entryway to their schools or a trained staff member with a gun centrally located in the school, or an armed Grandpa patrol sitting outside the door of the school.
_

[janmcn]

"The only way to combat a bad man with a gun, is a good man with a gun".

So it sounds as though the NRA is advocating a gunfight at the OK Corral solution to gun violence. They believe teachers and administrators should be armed. Now think about it - a madman with assault weapons enters a classroom. By the time the teacher recognizes a threat and pulls a weapon out of their desk, or wherever, the madman has already mowed down a half dozen children, including, perhaps the armed teacher. If the teacher avoids being killed in the initial volley, he/she and the madman engage in an old fashioned gunfight in a crowded classroom. Yep, that will solve all our problems! The LEADERSHIP of the NRA is out of touch with the members of their own organization, and in another world from the rest of America. Good grief!

It's been reported that there were two armed guards at Columbine High School. Virginia Tech has it's own SWAT team. Jarod Laughner fired off 31 shots in 30 seconds in Tuscon.

If a person encountered a "good guy with a gun and a bad guy with a gun", how would you possibly know which was which?

Wayne LaPierre is the Washington lobbyist who makes sure mass murderers have everything they could possibly need.

[Trish Crocker]

From what I have heard, unless you are a 'hothead' the average person will hesitate before pulling a trigger, even if they feel threatened. It is during this moment of hesitation that the assailant gets the upper hand. The common statement that criminals will find a way to get a weapon may be true, but a scarcity of weapons would drive up the price, therefore not every nut would be able to afford one. I'm not sure I can accept the idea that some form of gun control is contrary to the Constitution. I don't think the founding fathers were talking about assault weapons and arsenals. At the time the constitution was written, there were no phones to call for help when you found someone lurking around your property, many people live miles from any town or city and needed protection. In this case, the only viable solution would be to arm yourselves. It seems to me that the same constitution that allows this 'freedom' is the constitution that denied women the right to vote and was then changed when people realized the stupidity of the this law. We have the right to seek change when it is causing harm to United States Citizens.

[eweissenbach]

From what I have heard, unless you are a 'hothead' the average person will hesitate before pulling a trigger, even if they feel threatened. It is during this moment of hesitation that the assailant gets the upper hand. The common statement that criminals will find a way to get a weapon may be true, but a scarcity of weapons would drive up the price, therefore not every nut would be able to afford one. I'm not sure I can accept the idea that some form of gun control is contrary to the Constitution. I don't think the founding fathers were talking about assault weapons and arsenals. At the time the constitution was written, there were no phones to call for help when you found someone lurking around your property, many people live miles from any town or city and needed protection. In this case, the only viable solution would be to arm yourselves. It seems to me that the same constitution that allows this 'freedom' is the constitution that denied women the right to vote and was then changed when people realized the stupidity of the this law. We have the right to seek change when it is causing harm to United States Citizens.

Very reasonable post Trish!

[Down Sized]

I'm stunned that my mind, my logic, and my life experience is so different from that of the spokesmen of the NRA.

Their promised first "meaningful contribution" to the nation's response to Sandy Hook is to support arming more people with more guns.

How is it possible to conclude this when there are two unchanged axioms throughout human history:

1) The more weapons man possesses, the more violence and death occurs.

2) The more sophisticated and deadly weapons are, the more serious injuries and death occur.

Someone has to refute these two realities before I will begin to question my sanity, but again, I'm astounded that there is such a divergence of opinion on this.

Oh! The first of my kids is arriving! Merry Christmas everyone!

Makes more sense than to let more psychos and drug crazed nuts out on the streets running loose. Da.:a040:

[ugotme]

And PERHAPS that gunman would have quickly dispatched the teacher or mall cop in the hallway and now has another weapon and more bullets for his/her killing spree. You see PERHAPS works both ways, perhaps. But it defies logic to have gun totin' teachers as your line of defense against the repetition of last Friday. It IMO is also important they we don't try to find a solution to this one episode and not look at the bigger picture of gun deaths in America. Avoid the kind of simplistic cure that taking off our shoes would make air flight safe because of one use of shoes to bring down a plane.

IF you read my post I said that I did not really agree with the NRA and yes, perhaps works both ways. The main point is that there simply are no easy answers.

Unfortunately no matter what you do some moron will always find a way to cause harm to other people.

When a CONVICTED killer is sent to prison for "25 to life" he is often let out much earlier. WHY? Should it not mean at least 25 years?

Sorry - getting off track here. Mea culpa

[ugotme]

The answers are as simple as always. They are in the original post. Reduce the number and deadly potential of weapons and regulate their availability to the general public. The amount and severity of violence will AUTOMATICALLY be reduced. Sure there are many other things which might help, but what could be more sensible than uniform gun control?

Not so!

Most guns are regulated already - note I did not say ALL! The criminal or mentally incompetent does not get a gun legally. Most are stolen.

As I have stated in other posts - go ahead add another 100 - 200 gun laws. do you REALLY think the criminals - repeat CRIMINALS - will obey them?

Use a gun in the commission of a crime - automatic jail time - no ifs, ands or buts.

[Mr Hanky]

I really do think the only thing that could of saved lives in that school would have been another gun!
One teacher,office worker,janitor or even a visitor to the school legally carrying could of stopped that sick kid in his tracks. And I doubt there would of been any hesitation in doing so. Some perished while trying to disarm him.
Some need to understand that personnel carry weapons are not tools of death ,they are
carried to help protect and preserve life.

[graciegirl]

I don't think what I said really will change things so I deleted it. There isn't any use arguing.

[eweissenbach]

I really do think the only thing that could of saved lives in that school would have been another gun!
One teacher,office worker,janitor or even a visitor to the school legally carrying could of stopped that sick kid in his tracks. And I doubt there would of been any hesitation in doing so. Some perished while trying to disarm him.
Some need to understand that personnel carry weapons are not tools of death ,they are
carried to help protect and preserve life.

I understand this school of thought, but in my opinion it is way too simplistic. A teacher, office worker, janitor could have had a weapon, but would they have been in a position to stop the perp, before he entered the classroom and opened fire? At what point would one recognize what was going on and be able to take action? Would the armed person be trained in how to intervene to not only stop the perpetrator, but to assure the safety of the children? What if the armed "good guy", misread the situation and saw a threat when none actually existed, starting a firefight with an innocent unarmed person? And, most alarming to me, what would be the result of a firefight between someone with an automatic weapon, and the armed school person with hundreds of children in the same building? Now if the armed school employee saw the perp enter the building, instantly recognized he was armed and had mayhem on his mind, and either disarmed or killed him, I would say that was a positive outcome. However I can see so many inherent problems in having armed people in schools, including the possibility of these people going off and killing children themselves, that I think that would have to be thought through carefully. The "code of the west" didn't work so well in the 1800s and I can't believe that most of us want a country with people walking around everywhere with their fingers on a trigger. I have read in several places that there were two armed security people at Columbine High, and that was obviously not a deterrent in that tragedy.

[ijusluvit]

Not so!

Most guns are regulated already - note I did not say ALL! The criminal or mentally incompetent does not get a gun legally. Most are stolen.

As I have stated in other posts - go ahead add another 100 - 200 gun laws. do you REALLY think the criminals - repeat CRIMINALS - will obey them?

Use a gun in the commission of a crime - automatic jail time - no ifs, ands or buts.

With all due respect, you are not addressing my point. Can you name a single mass murderer in recent times who was a CRIMINAL prior to their rampage? These awful events are the best proof of the fact that if powerful weapons are not generally available, fewer unstable, previously anonymous persons will be able to get them.

And to go further, by simple math, if fewer powerful weapons are available, fewer CRIMINALS will have them.

I'm not talking about 'solving' this horrible social problem today, or even soon. I'm talking about taking a major foolproof, beginning step.

[MelZ]

"The only way to combat a bad man with a gun, is a good man with a gun".

So it sounds as though the NRA is advocating a gunfight at the OK Corral solution to gun violence. They believe teachers and administrators should be armed. Now think about it - a madman with assault weapons enters a classroom. By the time the teacher recognizes a threat and pulls a weapon out of their desk, or wherever, the madman has already mowed down a half dozen children, including, perhaps the armed teacher. If the teacher avoids being killed in the initial volley, he/she and the madman engage in an old fashioned gunfight in a crowded classroom. Yep, that will solve all our problems! The LEADERSHIP of the NRA is out of touch with the members of their own organization, and in another world from the rest of America. Good grief!

Now think about it a madman with 2 gallons of gasoline sets fire to a school, so we ban gasoline?

[graciegirl]

I don't think what I said really will change things so I deleted it. There isn't any use arguing.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

I don't know what the answer is, but we have more gun laws and gun control now than at any time in our history and gun violence is worse now than it has ever been.
I'm not saying that there is a correlation between the two, but #1, there might be and #2 all of those laws and regulations have not helped. Why would anyone think that more laws and regulations are going to work?

[wendyquat]

Now think about it a madman with 2 gallons of gasoline sets fire to a school, so we ban gasoline?

Or a drunk driver kills a family with his car? Lets ban cars!

Seems I remember they tried banning alcohol and that didn't stop a lot of folks from drinking!

Guns do NOT kill people, people kill people! Treat the sick people and quit letting them roam our streets! One mother of a 13 year old boy that she could not handle begged police for help after he threatened her many times. They told her they could not help her until he had committed a crime! Some changes need to be made.

When you OUTLAW guns, only OUTLAWS will have guns!

[LndLocked]

I really do think the only thing that could of saved lives in that school would have been another gun!
One teacher,office worker,janitor or even a visitor to the school legally carrying could of stopped that sick kid in his tracks. And I doubt there would of been any hesitation in doing so. Some perished while trying to disarm him.
Some need to understand that personnel carry weapons are not tools of death ,they are
carried to help protect and preserve life.

Guess what high school had an armed guard? ..... Columbine.

Va Tech (just like every major college) has a full on armed Police force.

[Monkei]

Not totally agreeing with the NRA nor with you!
The point (which, of course, no one can guarantee) is that if a teacher had a gun and was trained in its use - perhaps - PERHAPS the gunmen could have been stopped. If the madman had killed a half dozen maybe the others would have been spared.

Obviously no one knows.

There are NO easy answers!

Or the more likely result would have been she would never have the time to get to the gun because for safety reasons it was on triple lockdown to prevent its use by the students in the school.

A ban is a good place to start. A ban is why crazys can't get a ground to air missile weapon. A weapon designed to kill only people and no other reason should remain out of the publics hands.

A ban is not the whole answer but I continue to ask the question if we don't take steps NOW what will the situation be in 2025?

The NRA does not represent gun owners like myself who has a hunting rifle and a small handgun, they represent the BUSINESS of gun manufacturers.

[Monkei]

Or a drunk driver kills a family with his car? Lets ban cars!

Seems I remember they tried banning alcohol and that didn't stop a lot of folks from drinking!

Guns do NOT kill people, people kill people! Treat the sick people and quit letting them roam our streets! One mother of a 13 year old boy that she could not handle begged police for help after he threatened her many times. They told her they could not help her until he had committed a crime! Some changes need to be made.

When you OUTLAW guns, only OUTLAWS will have guns!

So what are you saying? Are you agreeing with the NRA that there is a place in society for assault weapons whose only job is to kill a lot of people in a short amount of time.

By all means lets lift bans on all weapons then. Surely we could all use a tank or too then we could all hear more fancy NRA slogans like tanks don't kill people, people kill people.

[Monkei]

Now think about it a madman with 2 gallons of gasoline sets fire to a school, so we ban gasoline?

I fear for this country that the situation has gotten so far out of hand that we can rationalize the need for weapons of mass destruction by comparing it to 2 gallons of gasoline in the wrong persons hands.

Discussing the situation with those would would use these or any other kind of comparisons simply do not understand the issue at hand.

[Golfingnut]

If you own a few hunting guns you are normal in this country.
If you own a pistol in your home for personal protection, you are normal in this country.

If you own a collection of Semi-Automatic weapons rather long gun or pistol. HUUMMM

If you own Semi-Automatic weapons designed to match military weapons---if you own large capacity clips for these weapons--- if you are a member of any of the so called militia groups, you probably have a problem that needs outside intervention and not from your buddy that gets drunk and shoots holes in his beer cans for sport.

If you have converted any of your weapons to fully automatic. YOU DEFINITELY HAVE A PROBLEM.

[Xavier]

We have many VERY intelligent people here on TOTV.

We have a few WING NUTS on TOTV.

I'm pretty sure that none of us will be able to change anyone's mind on this topic. :pray:

We have people who need to love and be loved. It just may improve their outlook on life.

God bless you all - Merry Christmas.

Xavier

[DaleMN]

Guns are another issue that deeply divides our country. Guns, taxes, spending, social issues, women's rights, education, defense, and on and on.
The major difference is, with guns people die. But that's ok with the NRA and others as long as many guns as possible are in the hands of people....who cares to whom or how obtained or for what intent. All falsely in the name of protecting a constitutional right. How sick.

[senior citizen]

................

[Cantwaittoarrive]

You are correct, obviously no one knows AND there are NO easy answers. It is however, good to look deeply and with objectivity into these issues rather than jump to easy conclusions based on preconcieved notions.

Wise answer and it would be wise for those that have preconcieved notions about the evils of guns to also listen to these words. I think your words OldCoach are an excellent place for both sides to start from.

[Bogie Shooter]

[QUOTE=senior citizen;598030]I tend to agree with you.


Everyone has guns in Vermont.


Not often, but when the occasional "city person" that looked suspicious to him or his staff,
Before anyone gets "upset" over my using the word "city folks", we ourselves came from the big cities......just using that as a frame of reference as to how he would know that it wasn't a local or "townie" resident......often by their mode of dress or suspicious way of casing the place. The ones that raised his suspicions stuck out like a sore thumb.....

Really? Everyone has guns in Vermont?
Was there something else about the "city person" that you are not mentioning that would also distinguish them from the "townie"?

[Cantwaittoarrive]

From what I have heard, unless you are a 'hothead' the average person will hesitate before pulling a trigger, even if they feel threatened. It is during this moment of hesitation that the assailant gets the upper hand. The common statement that criminals will find a way to get a weapon may be true, but a scarcity of weapons would drive up the price, therefore not every nut would be able to afford one. I'm not sure I can accept the idea that some form of gun control is contrary to the Constitution. I don't think the founding fathers were talking about assault weapons and arsenals. At the time the constitution was written, there were no phones to call for help when you found someone lurking around your property, many people live miles from any town or city and needed protection. In this case, the only viable solution would be to arm yourselves. It seems to me that the same constitution that allows this 'freedom' is the constitution that denied women the right to vote and was then changed when people realized the stupidity of the this law. We have the right to seek change when it is causing harm to United States Citizens.

You are right and a very nice thoughtful post. Of course it's possible to seek change and that's one of the remarkable things about the way our founding fathers set up our great country. Lets also keep in mind, we think nothing of trained people with guns protecting our most valuable assets. We use armed guards to protect our money, we use armed guards to protect our president. If you had a million dollars in cash or gold would you just place it in a building with no guards? and hope no one came to take it? How much more valuable are our children? yes it's not a perfect answer but do you think if we changed the constitution tomorrow that the bad guys wouldn't still have and use guns? do you think if someone is dead set on attacking a school they wouldn't find a way to do it? using some other method like a truck bomb or plane or who knows? I certainly think it's wise to have an open and frank discussion and look at all of the possibilities and not close our minds

[MelZ]

I fear for this country that the situation has gotten so far out of hand that we can rationalize the need for weapons of mass destruction by comparing it to 2 gallons of gasoline in the wrong persons hands.

Discussing the situation with those would would use these or any other kind of comparisons simply do not understand the issue at hand.

I completely understand the situation, "blame the inanimate object not the person". My point was anything can be a murder weapon. You look for an easy answer there is none. This Madman killed his Mom, took guns (which are illegally obtained by him, steals a car) and commits murder. When we opened the asylums we let the insane out do you really think any laws will stop an insane person? Virginia Tech has it's own Police Department and where were they? If Columbine has a school Security officer where was he? Why are airline pilots armed even though there are sky marshals on planes?

[JeffAVEWS]

I'm not a gun owner, not an IRA member, just a worried Grandpa!!!

This is my opinion......

1) Deranged people have been shooting up public locations killing innocent people... Isn't this Terrorism???

2) Nothing is in place or on the near horizon to stop this,

3) Even with stringent gun control, these people will have access to weapons, the black market will provide...just like with drugs,

4) One of these deranged people walked into Sandy Hook Elementry School and killed 26 innocents,

5) No more than 26 deaths would have occured and perhaps many less would have died if that deranged person had met someone, anyone with a gun to stop him.

6) I've never heard of one innocent being hurt by protectors in those locations where armed guards are present.

7) If President Obama's daughters are protected by armed guards, why not my grandchildren.

Until we reach Utopia, I want my grandchildren PROTECTED, by an armed policeman guarding the single entryway to their schools or a trained staff member with a gun centrally located in the school, or an armed Grandpa patrol sitting outside the door of the school.
_
In reguards to item 6 read this from last Aug.NYPD Gunfire In Empire State Building Shooting Wounded All Nine Bystanders, Says Ray Kelly (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/25/empire-state-building-shooting-nypd-bullets-shot-all-nine_n_1830007.html)

[2 Oldcrabs]

I am not against guns, I own 2 shot guns. I am against automatic wepons ! We need to call them what they are, "WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION" and ban them! :rant-rave:

[janmcn]

Or a drunk driver kills a family with his car? Lets ban cars!

Seems I remember they tried banning alcohol and that didn't stop a lot of folks from drinking!

Guns do NOT kill people, people kill people! Treat the sick people and quit letting them roam our streets! One mother of a 13 year old boy that she could not handle begged police for help after he threatened her many times. They told her they could not help her until he had committed a crime! Some changes need to be made.

When you OUTLAW guns, only OUTLAWS will have guns!

If GM built a car whose SOLE purpose was to kill a large number of people in a short amount of time, it should be banned.

[MelZ]

If GM built a car whose SOLE purpose was to kill a large number of people in a short amount of time, it should be banned.

there were 32,000 auto related fatalities last year, yes let's go back to horse and buggy days

[senior citizen]

........

[MelZ]

I am not against guns, I own 2 shot guns. I am against automatic wepons ! We need to call them what they are, "WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION" and ban them! :rant-rave:

To own Automatic weapons you must have a class 3 Federal Firearms license.

[senior citizen]

................

[senior citizen]

.............

[Suddz]

This is my first ever post on TOTV. I have been a regular reader since the first time I visited TV a couple of years ago. May I recommend that that you read the book called More Guns, Less Crime? It is written by an economist named John Lott. It is based on years of research of gun related statistics plus interviews.. You will be shocked at what the statistics and evidence shows.

There are some recent interviews with John Lott on various news shows.

[Cisco Kid]

Maryland Mall Evacuated & Locked Down After Sneaker Fight « CBS Baltimore (http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2012/02/06/maryland-mall-evacuated-locked-down-after-sneaker-fight/)


It looks like we may have to ban Air Jordans next.
It's only a matter of time before someone gets hurt.

[Golfingnut]

John Lott, really. You can't be serious. LOL Please spare me.


:loco:

[Suddz]

The info is out there. Some will do their homework, look at evidence, and become informed. Others will choose to ignore the evidence.

[eweissenbach]

The info is out there. Some will do their homework, look at evidence, and become informed. Others will choose to ignore the evidence.

One person's "evidence" is another person's junk science. Comparing weapons of war with gasoline and sandals and spouting bromides such as "guns don't kill people, people kill people", and the old standby, "If you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns", does nothing to critically evaluate the problem and seek common sense solutions. This thread has fallen off the tracks and is no longer of value IMO. I'm out..

[DaleMN]

Logic and compassion defies most.

[wendyquat]

One person's "evidence" is another person's junk science. Comparing weapons of war with gasoline and sandals and spouting bromides such as "guns don't kill people, people kill people", and the old standby, "If you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns", does nothing to critically evaluate the problem and seek common sense solutions. This thread has fallen off the tracks and is no longer of value IMO. I'm out..

So, I'm hearing when things don't go your way " you are out"!
Did it occur to you my "bromides" might be correct?

Gracie is right, no solution here so no need to argue! I'm out!:wave:

[Suddz]

There was another mass shooting attempt last week in a mall in Portland. After two innocent people were shot, a citizen with a concealed carry permit pulled his gun. He didn't shoot the assailant because he didn't have a clear shot and others were near the line of fire. The assailant saw him. His next shot took his own life. This was not on the mass media for some strange reason.

A similar event happened in a Salt Lake City mall except an off duty police officer shot the assailant (who had enough ammo to kill lots of people).

The gunman in CT also killed himself when the police got close.

The gunman in Aurora drove past theaters (that were also showing the Batman movie) that weren't gun free zones to a theater that was a gun free zone. Statistically, in the other theaters, between 2 and 4 people would have had guns.

We can't know exactly will happen in all situations but we can look at the commonalities and make smart decisions.

[Suzi]

The fabric of our society has changed dramatically. I think if any meaningful dialog is to take place about this and many other "tragic" recent events, we have to address the very core of our current beliefs.
All of us "mature" adults remember the good-ole-days.
1. Respect for ourselves and others. We would address others by Mr. Smith etc.
We would dress properly: no pj's in the mall etc.
Halloween is the place for black fingernails and goulish faces.
2. Schools were a place for education and teachers were respected (refer to #1)
not babysitting. Parents respected teachers and backed them up. You HAD to
go to school.
3. Marriage, family values, living small but happy.
4. Drug problems you read about in the newspaper-not in your home, family or
school.
5. Faith was an intregal part of your family life.
6. We had paper routes or babysitting for spending money. Parents didn't just "pop"
for everything we wanted.
7. Don't get mad at me but: there was a Mom in the house. Mom wasn't out working
so we had 2 cars, name-brand jeans, boat, 4-wheeler etc. Dad lived in the
home, had a job, was married to mom, we were all his children, did the outside
chores and paid us a small allowance to help with chores.
8. We had goals: Doctor, lawyer, indian chief...whatever. And our parents were
part of that discourse. What we would be in life was not left to the whims of the
school or government. Parents had a role in who we became.
9. Living was pretty safe: police had guns, nobody had too much $ so theft was
fairly rare. The worst you had to worry about was drunks but they would just beg
for your change for a bottle and most of the time the policemen would hustle
them away.
10. There were no video games. Disney was the movies you could see at the show.
You couldn't hold-hands at high school.
There are many more examples of how our lives have changed. But to discuss gun ownership, illiteracy in schools, violence, teen pregnancy, drug use, and a host of other ills, we must look to the ways our society as a whole has changed over the years and if those societal changes need to be addressed.

[manaboutown]

Mexico has strong gun control laws and , apparently, only one gun store which is run by the police. It seems that the gun control laws there take away the right of ordinary citizens to defend themselves which make it a piece of cake for the criminal, drug gangs and the like to get away with horrendous (multiple) murders.

Many ordinary citizens who realize they may have occasion to protect themselves own guns illegally.

Mexico Shows That Tight Gun Control Laws Don't Guarantee Compliance - Hit & Run : Reason.com (http://reason.com/blog/2012/12/11/mexico-as-an-example-that-tighter-gun-co)

[Bogie Shooter]

Mexico has strong gun control laws and , apparently, only one gun store which is run by the police. It seems that the gun control laws there take away the right of ordinary citizens to defend themselves which make it a piece of cake for the criminal, drug gangs and the like to get away with horrendous (multiple) murders.

Many ordinary citizens who realize they may have occasion to protect themselves own guns illegally.

Mexico Shows That Tight Gun Control Laws Don't Guarantee Compliance - Hit & Run : Reason.com (http://reason.com/blog/2012/12/11/mexico-as-an-example-that-tighter-gun-co)

I have yet to hear anyone talk about a total ban on guns here in the US.

[Trish Crocker]

I just read an article about gun control in Japan. Apparently, ALL handguns are banned. You can get a rifle or air gun but before you do you must take a course on gun safety, be trained at a shooting range, have psychological testing and also have medical tests done. In 2008 there were 11 deaths attributed to guns and that was a huge amount for that country. If we don't ban guns what is wrong with requiring proof of the ability to handle them? The writer of this article also mentioned the fact that the constitution allowed the right to bear arms to enable citizens to protect themselves against government tyranny. He went on to say that at that time, both government soldiers and civilians had muskets. If you think having a handgun or any other weaponry is going to protect you from the Army, Navy, Air Force or Marines should the government decide to turn on it's citizens...you are Crazy..and definitely should not be allowed to handle weapons of any kind!

[blueash]

Mexico has strong gun control laws and , apparently, only one gun store which is run by the police. It seems that the gun control laws there take away the right of ordinary citizens to defend themselves which make it a piece of cake for the criminal, drug gangs and the like to get away with horrendous (multiple) murders.

Many ordinary citizens who realize they may have occasion to protect themselves own guns illegally.

Mexico Shows That Tight Gun Control Laws Don't Guarantee Compliance - Hit & Run : Reason.com (http://reason.com/blog/2012/12/11/mexico-as-an-example-that-tighter-gun-co)

And Canada, UK, Australia, France, Germany etc etc which are much better examples of countries with strong governments, non-corrupted police and military, first world nations, like the USA have strong gun regulations and miniscule gun murder rates. Please, if you are trying to make comparisons to other countries, picks ones most like ours for this issue at hand.

[rubicon]

To those who discounted guards at Columbine the fact is that upon seeing the armed guards the assliants rushed to the library where they killed themselves thus many more lives were saved.

to those who seek gun control remeber all it will do is create an underground much like Prohibtion and like illegal drugs now and to boot run by the criminal element.

Consider:

On the same day as Sandy Hook a armed man ,Min Yinjung stabbed and killed twenty elementary students in china and wounded 50 more.In 1999 a man, Sreven Abrams in California drove his car onto a playground killing two children. i could cite you more but you get the point

I said on another thread devoted to this tragedy that the underlying cause dates back to the 1960's when the news media educational intellectuals judges etc condoned people's lack of self restrained and discpline.

Its kool to be bad kids see it in all forms of the media. Jane Fonda made it kool. Lindsey Lohan made it kool, We have seen so much of it for the past 40 odd years that we think it is normal.

Gun control is the politically expedient answer because people only emote/react today they don't think and reason because that's what our educational system has taught us.

How many people living here today could go westward and open up new frontiers?

Where have all the rugged individuals gone? GG is right it won't get solved because american are too reactive too emotional today and unwilling to dialogue all because of that thing called poltical corectness.

[janmcn]

Where do you get your information? All the reports I read said that none of the children stabbed in China died.

[MelZ]

John Lott, really. You can't be serious. LOL Please spare me.


:loco:

so much for intelligent discourse, John Lott bring more to the table and Piers Morgan.

[ugotme]

With all due respect - there is not just one pat answer to this problem - be it pro or anti gun. someone hell-bent on harming - killing - someone or many will find a way.

[QUOTE=senior citizen;598069]A merchant has to protect themselves. No one else will/QUOTE]

To use part of your quote above, this is very true. What happens if someone breaks into your home? Yes, of course you call the police. However, in the minutes it takes to respond a lot of damage could be inflicted. Not trying to sway anyone here - seriously!

Personally, I have been target shooting for years and have instructed many people. Quite frankly I don't know how I would react - never having been trained such as a police officer. My "gut" tells me that I would grab my handgun and react by protecting my family. If it is him or me - I certainly hope it will be him !

Said it before - there are just NO EASY ANSWERS !

Wish there were !

[rubicon]

Where do you get your information? All the reports I read said that none of the children stabbed in China died.

janmcn: My apology I errored and unfortunately it seems it is even worse. what the article stated was that Min Yingjun stabbed 22 elementary children so you are right none died. However the article when on to report that in similar assaults using knives killed 20 children and wounded 50 in china last year. (WSJ 12/19/12) so we have multiple attacks in china with knives. so apparently copy cats copy.

[LndLocked]

John Lott!?!?!??! seriously?? He was proven to be a complete fraud when he was completely unable to prove the existence of the "study" that was central to his premise of more guns = less crime.

Why is the media rehabilitating John Lott? - Salon.com (http://www.salon.com/2012/12/21/why_is_the_media_rehabilitating_john_lott/)

[Golfingnut]

so much for intelligent discourse, John Lott bring more to the table and Piers Morgan.

John Lott is a dangerous misguided Fool. I think he actually believes the garbage he spews; however, he is so wrong in his views on guns in America I find him pitiful and embarrassing to listen to. I base my opinion on watching him speak and reviewing the content of his website. Scary and deranged. That is my opinion and I am sticking to it.

I have read the quoted post a few times, but sorry, I still can't seem to get an accurate understanding of what you are trying to say.

[manaboutown]

And Canada, UK, Australia, France, Germany etc etc which are much better examples of countries with strong governments, non-corrupted police and military, first world nations, like the USA have strong gun regulations and miniscule gun murder rates. Please, if you are trying to make comparisons to other countries, picks ones most like ours for this issue at hand.

Perhaps where you have lived or currently reside in the US one does not have corruption, high crime rates or have to press one for English as I do.

I grew up in New Mexico which is pretty darn crime ridden and corrupt. Being a border state and over 44% Hispanic it has a culture in many ways not much unlike that of Mexico. I now live in Southern California which is 37% Hispanic and has a huge number of people from Mexico. I have spent time in Arizona. My brother lived for many years in Key Biscayne in a very expensive oceanside high rise condominium. When we ate dinner in the restaurant at the complex we were almost always the only people speaking English and I observed several tables with body guards present. These areas of the United States are heavily influenced by the lifestyles, values and mores immigrants from Mexico and other Latin American countries bring with them. Ever notice the bars over the windows in many of the homes in Southwestern cities?

I have spent time in various parts of Canada, the UK, NZ, Germany and Scandinavia. They do feel somewhat like our Northeast and Midwest culturally so perhaps that is whereof you write. Actually France reminds me of Mexico in many ways. They share Napoleonic Code backgrounds. By the way, the French and Germans just love the Southwest US. Friends of mine in France own six shooters and even dress up as cowboys, big hat, boots, wide belt with a huge buckle, low riding holsters, and have quick draw contests in addition to more conventional shooting contests. They just love to shoot guns. I have taken a couple of them cowboy boots, quick draw holsters and such as house gifts.

[Bonnevie]

I just find it interesting that the NRA has no problem suggesting all mental health patients be put on a list but refuses to consider that for NRA members. Why are NRA rights more important than people who may have a mental condition? Most of these people are non-violent, law abiding citizens. It will be interesting to see the video game lobby go up against the NRA lobby.

I believe everyone has a right to be able to defend themselves. I just don't think they need military assault type weapons to do so, nor huge ammunition clips. There was a ban in place once and the NRA survived, another ban won't hurt them. Will it guarantee no more violence? of course not, all the weapons out there will be grandfathered in. But anything that can be done to lessen the chance should be done.

Plus, everyone thinks that all people who have gun permits are always in control. At my son's school, a student in a fraternity was showing off his assault type weapon and "didn't realize" it was loaded and killed his girlfriends sister. He had been drinking and using drugs. He's now serving a long sentence for manslaughter. He owned the gun legally and he's not "mentally ill". You can't stop stupid.

[manaboutown]

Plus, everyone thinks that all people who have gun permits are always in control. At my son's school, a student in a fraternity was showing off his assault type weapon and "didn't realize" it was loaded and killed his girlfriends sister. He had been drinking and using drugs. He's now serving a long sentence for manslaughter. He owned the gun legally and he's not "mentally ill". You can't stop stupid.

When I was in college one of my fraternity brothers, a licensed driver, was taking a carload of sorority girls home in his car after heavily drinking at a party. He drove the car off a bridge! He was not mentally ill either, but indeed, you cannot stop stupid.

[justjim]

Sometimes the right question is, are we asking the right question. Abraham Lincoln.

In the discussion of teachers being armed or armed Police/Guard at our schools, the right question is will the local school board approve such an arrangement??? They will have the last say IMHO. A few might but most will not. Will Congress ban "assault weapons"??? I believe they will ban certain types of guns and the President will sign it into law in 2013. But not without much discussion and a "fight" with the NRA.

[Taltarzac725]

From what I have heard, unless you are a 'hothead' the average person will hesitate before pulling a trigger, even if they feel threatened. It is during this moment of hesitation that the assailant gets the upper hand. The common statement that criminals will find a way to get a weapon may be true, but a scarcity of weapons would drive up the price, therefore not every nut would be able to afford one. I'm not sure I can accept the idea that some form of gun control is contrary to the Constitution. I don't think the founding fathers were talking about assault weapons and arsenals. At the time the constitution was written, there were no phones to call for help when you found someone lurking around your property, many people live miles from any town or city and needed protection. In this case, the only viable solution would be to arm yourselves. It seems to me that the same constitution that allows this 'freedom' is the constitution that denied women the right to vote and was then changed when people realized the stupidity of the this law. We have the right to seek change when it is causing harm to United States Citizens.

...that would very carefully define what kinds of weapons should be banned from the United States except for in the hands of serving military and those weapons should be kept on base and locked under guards and other security measures.

I did a paper for a Legal History Class at the University of Minnesota Law School (Class of 1989) of the various Minnesota appellate decisions on the Prohibition laws against liquor and every case I looked at involved a lawyer pushing another hole through the Minnesota and US Prohibition laws. It was very hard for the lawmakers to write any law that forbad liquor that some lawyer in Minnesota could not find a loophole to allow his or her client to get off of the fine and/or jail sentence. The law makers kept on revising the law while the lawyers kept on finding a new technicality to work to absolve their clients.

It is going to take some very astute lawyers to write some kind of Constituitional Amendment at the Federal and State levels to ban certain types of weapons.

I also expect that there is going to be a lot of political machinations to get any kind of meaningful ban in place.

[Taltarzac725]

I just find it interesting that the NRA has no problem suggesting all mental health patients be put on a list but refuses to consider that for NRA members. Why are NRA rights more important than people who may have a mental condition? Most of these people are non-violent, law abiding citizens. It will be interesting to see the video game lobby go up against the NRA lobby.

I believe everyone has a right to be able to defend themselves. I just don't think they need military assault type weapons to do so, nor huge ammunition clips. There was a ban in place once and the NRA survived, another ban won't hurt them. Will it guarantee no more violence? of course not, all the weapons out there will be grandfathered in. But anything that can be done to lessen the chance should be done.

Plus, everyone thinks that all people who have gun permits are always in control. At my son's school, a student in a fraternity was showing off his assault type weapon and "didn't realize" it was loaded and killed his girlfriends sister. He had been drinking and using drugs. He's now serving a long sentence for manslaughter. He owned the gun legally and he's not "mentally ill". You can't stop stupid.

That's scary that the NRA wants to mental health laws back to what sounds like the dark ages of human rights for those with some kind of mental illness. The stigma is bad enough now without lists of those with mental health problems showing up on the Internet. The NRA should look at how many people have been committed just in Florida. Florida's Baker Act: Involuntary Exams for Mental Health | Suite101 (http://suite101.com/article/floridas-baker-act-involuntary-exams-for-mental-health-a406009)


"Provisions of the Baker Act require reporting of statistics regarding the operation of the law. According to data collected by the Department of Mental Health Law and Policy at the University of South Florida, there were more than 70,000 involuntary examinations in 1997. By 2009, the most recent year for which statistics are available document 136,120 involuntary examinations initiated, nearly twice as many as 1997."

Read more at Suite101: Florida's Baker Act: Involuntary Exams for Mental Health | Suite101 http://suite101.com/article/floridas-baker-act-involuntary-exams-for-mental-health-a406009#ixzz2FogOSWGo
Follow us: @suite101 on Twitter | Suite101 on Facebook

[justjim]

Assault Weapons ban of 1994 approved by Congress and signed by President Clinton in September 1994 had a 10 year life and expired on September 2004. Since that time a ban has been unable to make it to the House of Representives.

[ugotme]

I post this not to defend the NRA - I post this just because:


COLUMBINE STUDENT'S FATHER 12 YEARS LATER!!

Guess our national leaders didn't expect this. On Thursday, Darrell Scott, the father of Rachel Scott, a victim of the Columbine High School shootings in Littleton, Colorado, was invited to address the House Judiciary Committee's subcommittee. What he said to our national leaders during this special session of Congress was painfully truthful.
They were not prepared for what he was to say, nor was it received well. It needs to be heard by every parent, every teacher, every politician, every sociologist, every psychologist, and every so-called expert! These courageous words spoken by Darrell Scott are powerful, penetrating, and deeply personal. There is no doubt that God sent this man as a voice crying in the wilderness. The following is a portion of the transcript:

"Since the dawn of creation there has been both good &evil in the hearts of men and women. We all contain the seeds of kindness or the seeds of violence. The death of my wonderful daughter, Rachel Joy Scott, and the deaths of that heroic teacher, and the other eleven children who died must not be in vain. Their blood cries out for answers.
"The first recorded act of violence was when Cain slew his brother Abel out in the field. The villain was not the club he used.. Neither was it the NCA, the National Club Association. The true killer was Cain, and the reason for the murder could only be found in Cain's heart.
"In the days that followed the Columbine tragedy, I was amazed at how quickly fingers began to be pointed at groups such as the NRA. I am not a member of the NRA. I am not a hunter. I do not even own a gun. I am not here to represent or defend the NRA - because I don't believe that they are responsible for my daughter's death. Therefore I do not believe that they need to be defended. If I believed they had anything to do with Rachel's murder I would be their strongest opponent
I am here today to declare that Columbine was not just a tragedy -- it was a spiritual event that should be forcing us to look at where the real blame lies! Much of the blame lies here in this room. Much of the blame lies behind the pointing fingers of the accusers themselves. I wrote a poem just four nights ago that expresses my feelings best.

Your laws ignore our deepest needs,
Your words are empty air.
You've stripped away our heritage,
You've outlawed simple prayer.
Now gunshots fill our classrooms,
And precious children die.
You seek for answers everywhere,
And ask the question "Why?"
You regulate restrictive laws,
Through legislative creed.
And yet you fail to understand,
That God is what we need!

"Men and women are three-part beings. We all consist of body, mind, and spirit. When we refuse to acknowledge a third part of our make-up, we create a void that allows evil, prejudice, and hatred to rush in and wreak havoc. Spiritual presences were present within our educational systems for most of our nation's history. Many of our major colleges began as theological seminaries. This is a historical fact.
What has happened to us as a nation? We have refused to honor God, and in so doing, we open the doors to hatred and violence. And when something as terrible as Columbine's tragedy occurs -- politicians immediately look for a scapegoat such as the NRA. They immediately seek to pass more restrictive laws that contribute to erode away our personal and private liberties. We do not need more restrictive laws.
Eric and Dylan would not have been stopped by metal detectors. No amount of gun laws can stop someone who spends months planning this type of massacre. The real villain lies within our own hearts.

"As my son Craig lay under that table in the school library and saw his two friends murdered before his very eyes, he did not hesitate to pray in school. I defy any law or politician to deny him that right! I challenge every young person in America , and around the world, to realize that on April 20, 1999, at Columbine High School prayer was brought back to our schools. Do not let the many prayers offered by those students be in vain. Dare to move into the new millennium with a sacred disregard for legislation that violates your God-given right to communicate with Him.

To those of you who would point your finger at the NRA -- I give to you a sincere challenge.. Dare to examine your own heart before casting the first stone!
My daughter's death will not be in vain! The young people of this country will not allow that to happen!"
- Darrell Scott

[Taltarzac725]

Assault Weapons ban of 1994 approved by Congress and signed by President Clinton in September 1994 had a 10 year life and expired on September 2004. Since that time a ban has been unable to make it to the House of Representives.

We need some kind of Federal Constitutional Amendment that empowers each state to set up bans of all sales of any kind of military or para-military weapon while also saving to the Federal Government certain kinds of duties towards removing these kind of weapons from circulation.

This should be on the Ballots of each State as well as at the Federal level so that we can work with and around whatever politicians block or support these Constitutional Amendments.

There are some states which I would guess that would probably never get through this kind of Constitutional Amendment.

[Shimpy]

I am not against guns, I own 2 shot guns. I am against automatic wepons ! We need to call them what they are, "WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION" and ban them! :rant-rave:

Automatic weapons are already banned and have been for years. You would need a very special and expensive license to buy one. What was used was a semi-automatic weapon. On a semi-auto you must pull the trigger for each and every shot. On an auto you pull the trigger once and hold it and it will keep firing until empty. This is what the military uses and cannot be legally owned.

[buggyone]

Do not blame the National Rifle Association and their brow-beating Congress to allow modified assault rifles such as the AR-15 to be sold as well as high-capacity magazines (twin banana clips taped back to back) - but put the blame on a ban on prayer in school?

I think not.

[Bogie Shooter]

I post this not to defend the NRA - I post this just because:


COLUMBINE STUDENT'S FATHER 12 YEARS LATER!!

Guess our national leaders didn't expect this. On Thursday, Darrell Scott, the father of Rachel Scott, a victim of the Columbine High School shootings in Littleton, Colorado, was invited to address the House Judiciary Committee's subcommittee. What he said to our national leaders during this special session of Congress was painfully truthful.
They were not prepared for what he was to say, nor was it received well. It needs to be heard by every parent, every teacher, every politician, every sociologist, every psychologist, and every so-called expert! These courageous words spoken by Darrell Scott are powerful, penetrating, and deeply personal. There is no doubt that God sent this man as a voice crying in the wilderness. The following is a portion of the transcript:

"Since the dawn of creation there has been both good &evil in the hearts of men and women. We all contain the seeds of kindness or the seeds of violence. The death of my wonderful daughter, Rachel Joy Scott, and the deaths of that heroic teacher, and the other eleven children who died must not be in vain. Their blood cries out for answers.
"The first recorded act of violence was when Cain slew his brother Abel out in the field. The villain was not the club he used.. Neither was it the NCA, the National Club Association. The true killer was Cain, and the reason for the murder could only be found in Cain's heart.
"In the days that followed the Columbine tragedy, I was amazed at how quickly fingers began to be pointed at groups such as the NRA. I am not a member of the NRA. I am not a hunter. I do not even own a gun. I am not here to represent or defend the NRA - because I don't believe that they are responsible for my daughter's death. Therefore I do not believe that they need to be defended. If I believed they had anything to do with Rachel's murder I would be their strongest opponent
I am here today to declare that Columbine was not just a tragedy -- it was a spiritual event that should be forcing us to look at where the real blame lies! Much of the blame lies here in this room. Much of the blame lies behind the pointing fingers of the accusers themselves. I wrote a poem just four nights ago that expresses my feelings best.

Your laws ignore our deepest needs,
Your words are empty air.
You've stripped away our heritage,
You've outlawed simple prayer.
Now gunshots fill our classrooms,
And precious children die.
You seek for answers everywhere,
And ask the question "Why?"
You regulate restrictive laws,
Through legislative creed.
And yet you fail to understand,
That God is what we need!

"Men and women are three-part beings. We all consist of body, mind, and spirit. When we refuse to acknowledge a third part of our make-up, we create a void that allows evil, prejudice, and hatred to rush in and wreak havoc. Spiritual presences were present within our educational systems for most of our nation's history. Many of our major colleges began as theological seminaries. This is a historical fact.
What has happened to us as a nation? We have refused to honor God, and in so doing, we open the doors to hatred and violence. And when something as terrible as Columbine's tragedy occurs -- politicians immediately look for a scapegoat such as the NRA. They immediately seek to pass more restrictive laws that contribute to erode away our personal and private liberties. We do not need more restrictive laws.
Eric and Dylan would not have been stopped by metal detectors. No amount of gun laws can stop someone who spends months planning this type of massacre. The real villain lies within our own hearts.

"As my son Craig lay under that table in the school library and saw his two friends murdered before his very eyes, he did not hesitate to pray in school. I defy any law or politician to deny him that right! I challenge every young person in America , and around the world, to realize that on April 20, 1999, at Columbine High School prayer was brought back to our schools. Do not let the many prayers offered by those students be in vain. Dare to move into the new millennium with a sacred disregard for legislation that violates your God-given right to communicate with Him.

To those of you who would point your finger at the NRA -- I give to you a sincere challenge.. Dare to examine your own heart before casting the first stone!
My daughter's death will not be in vain! The young people of this country will not allow that to happen!"
- Darrell Scott


This happened on Thursday May 27, 1999The rest of the story can be found here;
snopes.com: Darrell Scott Testimony (http://www.snopes.com/politics/guns/scott.asp)

From Snopes................
As transcripts of the proceedings demonstrate, Darrell Scott did make the statement attributed to him in the account reproduced above, but virtually everything framing his statement in that account is false. Mr. Scott wasn't speaking to national leaders present at a "special session of Congress," people who were "not prepared for what he was to say" and "did not receive it well." He was simply one of eight people who presented statements to a small House subcommittee meeting in an office building; his statement wasn't received differently than any of the others and didn't prompt outrage from an unreceptive audience. Moreover, unlike the other persons who testified before the Congressional subcommittee that day, Mr. Scott presented no facts or statistics relating to the issues of gun control and gun law enforcement; he merely gave his opinion that gun control laws wouldn't have stopped the Columbine High School shootings and that those shootings were somehow related to a lack of religion in schools (repeating along the way the mistaken claim that prayer has been "outlawed" in schools). Another parent who lost a child to a school-related shooting, Byrl Phillips-Taylor, testified after Darrell Scott and offered the opposite opinion: a lack of controls on the sale of assault weapons, Ms. Phillips-Taylor maintained, had led to the shooting death of her son.

Finally, contrary to the coda of the e-mailed account, the "media" did not prevent anyone from hearing Darrell Scott's words. The subcommittee hearing at which he spoke was covered by the Associated Press and reported in several big-city newspapers; in fact, due to intense media interest regarding everything related to the then-recent Columbine shootings, the event actually received much more general media coverage than a House subcommittee hearing typically would have.

[Shimpy]

This young killer spent hour after hour playing video games in his basement. Have you seen what they are like? Heads chopped off, blood spurting, etc. This gives the viewer a feeling of power and life has no meaning. He has been built up to think he is in one of those games and winning it. It was as if he was striking back at society because he had so few friends. He will use anything to accomplish his goal. Thats why he picked an elementary school, easy pickings, and not a police station. As soon as he saw signs of the swat team he killed himself. Nobody wants to research banning these games, just the one tool he used. He could have used knives, bombs, gasoline, SUV, etc.
Think back to when we were kids. None of this ever happened. Guns were just as prevalent and so were semi-auto's with the end of WWII. The most violent things we saw was cowboy and gangster movies.

[Taltarzac725]

This young killer spent hour after hour playing video games in his basement. Have you seen what they are like? Heads chopped off, blood spurting, etc. This gives the viewer a feeling of power and life has no meaning. He has been built up to think he is in one of those games and winning it. It was as if he was striking back at society because he had so few friends. He will use anything to accomplish his goal. Thats why he picked an elementary school, easy pickings, and not a police station. As soon as he saw signs of the swat team he killed himself. Nobody wants to research banning these games, just the one tool he used. He could have used knives, bombs, gasoline, SUV, etc.
Think back to when we were kids. None of this ever happened. Guns were just as prevalent and so were semi-auto's with the end of WWII. The most violent things we saw was cowboy and gangster movies.

Cuomo on ABC News yesterday or the day before went to his school (elementary I would guess) in Queens, NY to talk about what the kids would like done to stop violence. He then asked them how many of them played video games. Believe that about half of these kids raised their hands. I really do not see violent video games as causing violence. The Bible is one of the most violent books ever written and much of this violence is condoned by the God(s) in it. I see very few Christians suddenly or slowly becoming violent because of reading the Holy Book.

There are some video games that go way over the top in terms of violence and pornography but these are usually only found through underground sellers.

[justjim]

You couldn't even buy a playboy magazine in the small community where I grew up. Roy Rogers and Gene Autry were our heroes. Instead of killing the bad guy they shot the gun out of his hand. Yes, there were guns----for hunting game. You were "unusual" if you didn't attend church. The worst violence on television was Gunsmoke but old' Matt Dillon always prevailed. If you had too much to drink, the good policeman brought you home. They wanted to throw Elvis in jail and off television because he was too sinful and provocative. Wow! How times "they have changed."

[Shimpy]

I really do not see violent video games as causing violence. The Bible is one of the most violent books ever written and much of this violence is condoned by the God(s) in it. I see very few Christians suddenly or slowly becoming violent because of reading the Holy Book.

There are some video games that go way over the top in terms of violence and pornography but these are usually only found through underground sellers.

Viewing a violent movie is one thing as we did all our lives growing up......BUT INTERACTING in a video game, where you are the one to decide who dies or not is another. In a video game You are the one that pulls the trigger, chops off the head, etc. These games are advertised on TV everyday, not just through underground sellers, that's how I know about them.

[Villages PL]

Based on the heading, I thought this thread was going to be about interplanetary travel and/or parallel universes.

That being the case, everything about guns is off topic, in my opinion. :wave:

[Taltarzac725]

Viewing a violent movie is one thing as we did all our lives growing up......BUT INTERACTING in a video game, where you are the one to decide who dies or not is another. In a video game You are the one that pulls the trigger, chops off the head, etc. These games are advertised on TV everyday, not just through underground sellers, that's how I know about them.

Not sure we mean the same thing. I used the play a game where I shot Nazis to get to the next level before they shot me. I pulled the trigger. It is a game though. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfenstein_(series)

Of course, I never played something like Manhunt but assume there are even worse video games in the black market. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manhunt_(video_game)

Snuff movies are almost always sold underground as so I would assume would video games that pander to the same market. This article talks about one Call of Juarez: The Cartel that has not been banned in this country but has a black market in others. http://hnn.us/node/137191

[senior citizen]

...................

[wendyquat]

I post this not to defend the NRA - I post this just because:


COLUMBINE STUDENT'S FATHER 12 YEARS LATER!!

Guess our national leaders didn't expect this. On Thursday, Darrell Scott, the father of Rachel Scott, a victim of the Columbine High School shootings in Littleton, Colorado, was invited to address the House Judiciary Committee's subcommittee. What he said to our national leaders during this special session of Congress was painfully truthful.
They were not prepared for what he was to say, nor was it received well. It needs to be heard by every parent, every teacher, every politician, every sociologist, every psychologist, and every so-called expert! These courageous words spoken by Darrell Scott are powerful, penetrating, and deeply personal. There is no doubt that God sent this man as a voice crying in the wilderness. The following is a portion of the transcript:

"Since the dawn of creation there has been both good &evil in the hearts of men and women. We all contain the seeds of kindness or the seeds of violence. The death of my wonderful daughter, Rachel Joy Scott, and the deaths of that heroic teacher, and the other eleven children who died must not be in vain. Their blood cries out for answers.
"The first recorded act of violence was when Cain slew his brother Abel out in the field. The villain was not the club he used.. Neither was it the NCA, the National Club Association. The true killer was Cain, and the reason for the murder could only be found in Cain's heart.
"In the days that followed the Columbine tragedy, I was amazed at how quickly fingers began to be pointed at groups such as the NRA. I am not a member of the NRA. I am not a hunter. I do not even own a gun. I am not here to represent or defend the NRA - because I don't believe that they are responsible for my daughter's death. Therefore I do not believe that they need to be defended. If I believed they had anything to do with Rachel's murder I would be their strongest opponent
I am here today to declare that Columbine was not just a tragedy -- it was a spiritual event that should be forcing us to look at where the real blame lies! Much of the blame lies here in this room. Much of the blame lies behind the pointing fingers of the accusers themselves. I wrote a poem just four nights ago that expresses my feelings best.

Your laws ignore our deepest needs,
Your words are empty air.
You've stripped away our heritage,
You've outlawed simple prayer.
Now gunshots fill our classrooms,
And precious children die.
You seek for answers everywhere,
And ask the question "Why?"
You regulate restrictive laws,
Through legislative creed.
And yet you fail to understand,
That God is what we need!

"Men and women are three-part beings. We all consist of body, mind, and spirit. When we refuse to acknowledge a third part of our make-up, we create a void that allows evil, prejudice, and hatred to rush in and wreak havoc. Spiritual presences were present within our educational systems for most of our nation's history. Many of our major colleges began as theological seminaries. This is a historical fact.
What has happened to us as a nation? We have refused to honor God, and in so doing, we open the doors to hatred and violence. And when something as terrible as Columbine's tragedy occurs -- politicians immediately look for a scapegoat such as the NRA. They immediately seek to pass more restrictive laws that contribute to erode away our personal and private liberties. We do not need more restrictive laws.
Eric and Dylan would not have been stopped by metal detectors. No amount of gun laws can stop someone who spends months planning this type of massacre. The real villain lies within our own hearts.

"As my son Craig lay under that table in the school library and saw his two friends murdered before his very eyes, he did not hesitate to pray in school. I defy any law or politician to deny him that right! I challenge every young person in America , and around the world, to realize that on April 20, 1999, at Columbine High School prayer was brought back to our schools. Do not let the many prayers offered by those students be in vain. Dare to move into the new millennium with a sacred disregard for legislation that violates your God-given right to communicate with Him.

To those of you who would point your finger at the NRA -- I give to you a sincere challenge.. Dare to examine your own heart before casting the first stone!
My daughter's death will not be in vain! The young people of this country will not allow that to happen!"
- Darrell Scott

This is so simple and basic! Why do people refuse to see it?

[Bogie Shooter]

This is so simple and basic! Why do people refuse to see it?

Read post #78

[Taltarzac725]

NAMI | Newtown Tragedy: NAMI Condemns NRA Position as Outrageous and Wrong (http://www.nami.org/Template.cfm?Section=Home&template=%2FContentManagement%2FContentDisplay.cfm&ContentID=148650)

[MelZ]

Please Watch this Video and learn:

Shooting Deaths and Gun Control, The Critique - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ZRjxEAWwagc#)!

[Golfingnut]

Please Watch this Video and learn:

Shooting Deaths and Gun Control, The Critique - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ZRjxEAWwagc#)!

Yea Jenk. He is spot on and we should all do what we can to get control on these guns.

[Taltarzac725]

Please Watch this Video and learn:

Shooting Deaths and Gun Control, The Critique - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ZRjxEAWwagc#)!

He does not seem to really address the issue of military style weapons. I have not really heard anyone pragmatically argue that we should get rid of all guns in the U.S. That would be impossible. Getting all semi-automatic weapons that would go out on the street after say June 2013 could be possible with very strict laws.

This is an interesting article on why people would want these military kind of weapons.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/21/us/military-style-weapons-ireport/index.html

There are always exceptions to any generalized statement.

[JoeC1947]

I don't think what I said really will change things so I deleted it. There isn't any use arguing.

I read all of the posts in this thread and this one makes the most sense to me.

[Taltarzac725]

I read all of the posts in this thread and this one makes the most sense to me.

Throwing up your hands in defeat is no response really except giving up.

[MelZ]

Yea Jenk. He is spot on and we should all do what we can to get control on these guns.

The UK had over 3500 head injuries from golf balls, we should start controlling golf clubs to save the people. Makes as much sense as you position.

Risky Business: The World of Golf Injury and Accidents (http://www.thesportsbloc.ca/golf/risky-business-world-of-golf-injury-accidents/)

[Uptown Girl]

Please Watch this Video and learn:

Shooting Deaths and Gun Control, The Critique - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ZRjxEAWwagc#)!

THANKS MelZ,
I'm very glad you provided this link.

[Taltarzac725]

The UK had over 3500 head injuries from golf balls, we should start controlling golf clubs to save the people. Makes as much sense as you position.

Risky Business: The World of Golf Injury and Accidents (http://www.thesportsbloc.ca/golf/risky-business-world-of-golf-injury-accidents/)

Nice, except that some deranged golfer does not proceed to murder 20 six year olds in some UK kindergarten with golf balls.

That has about as much logic as banning bathtubs because people slip and fall on them and some die as a result.

[jebartle]

America out guns the planet, and in murders also by a WIDE margin.....enough said!

[JoeC1947]

Throwing up your hands in defeat is no response really except giving up.

Defeat! Do you actually think there will be winners and losers?

[MelZ]

America out guns the planet, and in murders also by a WIDE margin.....enough said!

Fact check you are WRONG

Current Worldwide Homicide/Murder Rate (http://chartsbin.com/view/1454)
List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate)

[graciegirl]

Sorry. Shouldn't have posted.

Let's just think about the little ones.

[rubicon]

I post this not to defend the NRA - I post this just because:


COLUMBINE STUDENT'S FATHER 12 YEARS LATER!!

Guess our national leaders didn't expect this. On Thursday, Darrell Scott, the father of Rachel Scott, a victim of the Columbine High School shootings in Littleton, Colorado, was invited to address the House Judiciary Committee's subcommittee. What he said to our national leaders during this special session of Congress was painfully truthful.
They were not prepared for what he was to say, nor was it received well. It needs to be heard by every parent, every teacher, every politician, every sociologist, every psychologist, and every so-called expert! These courageous words spoken by Darrell Scott are powerful, penetrating, and deeply personal. There is no doubt that God sent this man as a voice crying in the wilderness. The following is a portion of the transcript:

"Since the dawn of creation there has been both good &evil in the hearts of men and women. We all contain the seeds of kindness or the seeds of violence. The death of my wonderful daughter, Rachel Joy Scott, and the deaths of that heroic teacher, and the other eleven children who died must not be in vain. Their blood cries out for answers.
"The first recorded act of violence was when Cain slew his brother Abel out in the field. The villain was not the club he used.. Neither was it the NCA, the National Club Association. The true killer was Cain, and the reason for the murder could only be found in Cain's heart.
"In the days that followed the Columbine tragedy, I was amazed at how quickly fingers began to be pointed at groups such as the NRA. I am not a member of the NRA. I am not a hunter. I do not even own a gun. I am not here to represent or defend the NRA - because I don't believe that they are responsible for my daughter's death. Therefore I do not believe that they need to be defended. If I believed they had anything to do with Rachel's murder I would be their strongest opponent
I am here today to declare that Columbine was not just a tragedy -- it was a spiritual event that should be forcing us to look at where the real blame lies! Much of the blame lies here in this room. Much of the blame lies behind the pointing fingers of the accusers themselves. I wrote a poem just four nights ago that expresses my feelings best.

Your laws ignore our deepest needs,
Your words are empty air.
You've stripped away our heritage,
You've outlawed simple prayer.
Now gunshots fill our classrooms,
And precious children die.
You seek for answers everywhere,
And ask the question "Why?"
You regulate restrictive laws,
Through legislative creed.
And yet you fail to understand,
That God is what we need!

"Men and women are three-part beings. We all consist of body, mind, and spirit. When we refuse to acknowledge a third part of our make-up, we create a void that allows evil, prejudice, and hatred to rush in and wreak havoc. Spiritual presences were present within our educational systems for most of our nation's history. Many of our major colleges began as theological seminaries. This is a historical fact.
What has happened to us as a nation? We have refused to honor God, and in so doing, we open the doors to hatred and violence. And when something as terrible as Columbine's tragedy occurs -- politicians immediately look for a scapegoat such as the NRA. They immediately seek to pass more restrictive laws that contribute to erode away our personal and private liberties. We do not need more restrictive laws.
Eric and Dylan would not have been stopped by metal detectors. No amount of gun laws can stop someone who spends months planning this type of massacre. The real villain lies within our own hearts.

"As my son Craig lay under that table in the school library and saw his two friends murdered before his very eyes, he did not hesitate to pray in school. I defy any law or politician to deny him that right! I challenge every young person in America , and around the world, to realize that on April 20, 1999, at Columbine High School prayer was brought back to our schools. Do not let the many prayers offered by those students be in vain. Dare to move into the new millennium with a sacred disregard for legislation that violates your God-given right to communicate with Him.

To those of you who would point your finger at the NRA -- I give to you a sincere challenge.. Dare to examine your own heart before casting the first stone!
My daughter's death will not be in vain! The young people of this country will not allow that to happen!"
- Darrell Scott

ugotme: thank you for that post. Darrell Scott hit the nail on the head. For better than 40 years we have ignored each successive generation's lack of self restraint moving futher and further into a secular hedonistic lifestyle and we wonder why kids today misbehave so badly.

Politicians know that can legislate that so they flex their muscle on gun control. those in favor of guncontrol need to ask themselves how far the goverment should go. Will we allow the government to come into our homes and confiscate our weapons? You noticed a few who attempted to marginalize what and when Darrell Scott made this presentation. Notice they didn't address whether they believed if it had any merit.

[MelZ]

Sorry. Shouldn't have posted.

Let's just think about the little ones.

Gracie I agree

There is no one or simple solution to the Ct. school tragedy. Why must people look for easy answer. If you don't like guns don't own one but guns alone are not the problem.

[Taltarzac725]

Defeat! Do you actually think there will be winners and losers?

Yes. If one or a few deranged shooters are stopped then from killing kids or anyone from there not being access to semi-automatic weapons then that is a victory.

Another practical solution would be for an intensive campaign in schools against bullying and lessons in civility and perhaps more programs that get kids away from playing violent video games and watching violent movies.

[Golfingnut]

Semi Automatic military style weapons, Large capacity magazines and venomous snakes. I find collecting any of these to be a bit creepy to me.

[2BNTV]

Just thinking of the little children and praying something will be done to lessen the possibility of this happening again whatever that might be.......... :pray:

[Cisco Kid]

Chicago Murder Rate Rises Despite Gun Ban (http://www.newsmax.com/JohnLott/Lott-guns-Chicago-crime/2010/05/06/id/358060)

Chicago Murder Rate Rises Despite Gun Ban
100% gun ban

[Taltarzac725]

Chicago Murder Rate Rises Despite Gun Ban (http://www.newsmax.com/JohnLott/Lott-guns-Chicago-crime/2010/05/06/id/358060)

Chicago Murder Rate Rises Despite Gun Ban
100% gun ban

Bet most of these murders are with very cheap pistols.

[Bogie Shooter]

Chicago Murder Rate Rises Despite Gun Ban (http://www.newsmax.com/JohnLott/Lott-guns-Chicago-crime/2010/05/06/id/358060)

Chicago Murder Rate Rises Despite Gun Ban
100% gun ban

But what is not said is that most of the guns are purchased outside of Chicago.

[Villages PL]

The slippery-slope-solution is to ban the worst semi automatic weapons with the hope that large numbers of children will never be killed again. Then in the next shooting there might only be 15 or 20 killed instead of 26. Will they then admit that the first ban was wrong headed? No. They will just say that the first ban didn't go far enough and proceed to ban the next most deadly weapons. So, I ask, "where does this type of solution end?"

[EdV]

....So it sounds as though the NRA is advocating a gunfight at the OK Corral solution to gun violence. They believe teachers and administrators should be armed...

I know my post here is late but for the record Wayne Lapierre and the NRA never said that.

Here is a link to the transcript of the press conference (http://home.nra.org/pdf/Transcript_PDF.pdf).

[AJ32162]

Semi Automatic military style weapons, Large capacity magazines and venomous snakes. I find collecting any of these to be a bit creepy to me.

Then you probably shouldn't collect them.

[buggyone]

LaPierre did say that the only thing that stops a bad man with a gun is a good man with a gun.

He called for the armed volunteers in all schools. I am sure he would like more police wannabees like George Zimmerman to be patrolling schools with their firearms and set justice straight on more people like Trayvon Martin even though they are unarmed.

LaPierre is definitely out of touch with reality.