Queen Palms and Landscape Rock

[Newbeginnings]

i just attended a class at the Life Long Learning College on landscaping, it was thru the IFAS, the instructor was great he has a very good background, teaches at the University of Florida and does certifications. One of the first things he said was "don't plant Queen Palms here" we are in zone 9A and they will freeze out eventually. Also stated is that the landscaping rocks deprive the landscaping plants of nutrients and heat the ground too much, he suggested using an organic matter or pine straw. I don't have Queens but am interested in those that have them for more than 3 years, do they last here in your experience ? I see all kinds of them going up in the new landscaping around here as I live in the new section south of 466A and questioning the landscape companies selling these trees that are doomed. Sad to say I did put in rock, but I see it everywhere, and the most reputable landscape companies are putting it in.

[gustavo]

i just attended a class at the Life Long Learning College on landscaping, it was thru the IFAS, the instructor was great he has a very good background, teaches at the University of Florida and does certifications. One of the first things he said was "don't plant Queen Palms here" we are in zone 9A and they will freeze out eventually. Also stated is that the landscaping rocks deprive the landscaping plants of nutrients and heat the ground too much, he suggested using an organic matter or pine straw. I don't have Queens but am interested in those that have them for more than 3 years, do they last here in your experience ? I see all kinds of them going up in the new landscaping around here as I live in the new section south of 466A and questioning the landscape companies selling these trees that are doomed. Sad to say I did put in rock, but I see it everywhere, and the most reputable landscape companies are putting it in.

I agree with the advice for the palms, but the rock is great for low mtce and looks good. My plants don't look like they are deprived of nutrients so, just one data point.

[Bobcuse]

I have tried mulch, pine straw, bark nuggets and landscape rock in the past 10 years. I have now gone back to landscape rock but I pull the rock away from the base of plants and bushes to avoid the problem of overheating the soil above the plant roots during the summer season and have found this to be the best for me. Everyone has their own preferences and tastes, but I love the neat look of the rock and it is maintenance free. The other options all fade out in color and lose their good looks fairly quickly, but rocks always retain their neat aesthetic value. The other options also bring lots of ticks and spiders.

[bluedog103]

i just attended a class at the Life Long Learning College on landscaping, it was thru the IFAS, the instructor was great he has a very good background, teaches at the University of Florida and does certifications.

You would distrust information from an expert and come to TOTV for landscaping advice? :rolleyes:

[Mikeod]

During the two winters we had where the temps dipped below freezing for several hours several times, I noticed the queen palms in the northern areas of TV showed more damage than those in southern villages. I live south of 466 and have 9 queen palms. I had 10 but lost one due to disease. My temps always seem higher than the official temp so maybe I'm in a microclimate that helps my palms survive.

As I look around my neighborhood, there are many queen palms and all are doing well. So, the extension advice may be technically correct, but may not apply in all situations.

As far as landscape rock, I have that too. The advice above to keep the rock away from the trunk of the trees and plants is accurate. The rocks can get hot enough in the summer to actually burn the stem/trunk of the plant.

[mickey100]

Our last few winters have been pretty mild. I remember 3 or 4 years ago, we had quite a few nights where the temps dipped into the 20's, and a few nights were the temps were in the teens. Some of the palms in our neighborhoods (near Sumter) were damaged severely. You might be able to avoid that problem if your plantings are in a microclimate, but I think you'd be taking a chance. I think I read about a new palm called a Mule palm, a hybrid that looks like a Queen but is more hardy. If I were planting palms, I'd take a look at different varieties than the Queens. The other thing I don't like about the Queens, is they grow very quickly, and very tall. In no time at all you'll be paying someone to come in every year and trim them for you, because you won't be able to do it yourself.

[pqrstar]

Here is a link to more information regarding Queen Palms.

http://collier.ifas.ufl.edu/CommHort/CommHortPubs/Queen_Palms_-Just_say_no!-___Plagued_by_Another_Disease__2___2_.pdf

[angiefox10]

Mulch is an important component of creating a Florida-friendly landscape. Imparting contrasting color to planting beds is sometimes the most important consideration for the homeowner, but there are other advantages.
Studies have confirmed that mulches prevent water loss through evaporation and help to buffer soil temperatures. Mulching the garden can inhibit weed germination or suppress weed growth. It should be noted that the words �inhibit� and �suppress� are not the same as �eliminate�. Weeds are a garden fact of life; seeds can be brought in by a variety of uncontrollable mechanisms such as birds, wind, or the bottom of a shoe. (For tips on helping keep the number of weeds down on your mulch, see the side story on this page.)
The most frequently asked question Extension receives about mulch is �Which is the best mulch to use?� There is no definitive answer to this question, because as with plant material, it depends on the individual goal for the individual garden or landscape, and the homeowner�s preference.
The number one criteria for most homeowners is mulch that will keep the garden free of weeds, but since we�ve already established this as a moot point, let�s move on and look at the most popular types of mulch, how long it takes for them to settle, color retention, and their potential as food sources for insects, as indicated by University of Florida (UF) research.
Pine bark: Pine bark mulch is a forest industry by-product. The bark cannot be used in the manufacture of lumber or paper, so it is chopped into little pieces for use as mulch after it is stripped from the trees. It seems to be a favorite in northern landscapes, but several homeowners have reported it floating down the street during heavy rains. Location and specific application may be the key here.
Results from a UF study showed pine bark had one of the lowest ranks for settling, meaning that pine bark maintained a useful depth for almost two years. In addition, test results indicated pine bark mulch had the least color change, from reddish-brown or light brown to a dark reddish gray over a two-year period, as compared with other mulches.
Pine Straw: Pine straw can also be considered a by-product of the forestry industry, although somewhat indirect. Pine needles are harvested from the floor of plantations growing pines for lumber or paper production. There is some concern about loss of nutrients and organic matter from plantation soil when the needles are removed, but monitoring the frequency of removal and replacing lost nutrients can help to minimize these problems.
Although studies showed pine straw decreased to half its original depth during the first year, thus ranking lowest of the mulches tested for settling, many homeowners have indicated its decomposition added texture and nutrients to the soil. Another plus, pine straw rated high on the list of mulches with the least color change over time.
Cypress: Cypress mulch is made from Bald Cypress and Pond Cypress trees, both of which grow in Florida�s wetlands. Tests indicated a low settling rate and good color retention after two years. Unfortunately, approximately 60 percent of the mulch sold at retail garden centers is Cypress and many people consider it �native� mulch. That may very well be but production of Cypress mulch contributes to the devastation of our ecosystem. Because the trees are harvested from our natural wetlands, using it in the landscape is not considered Florida-friendly.
Eucalyptus: Most Eucalyptus trees are native to Australia, and are grown on plantations in Florida for the express purpose of mulch production. Studies showed Eucalyptus had a moderate settling rate, meaning it lasts longer in the landscape than pine-straw, but not as long as pine bark or cypress. Eucalyptus is also one of the mulches that showed the least change in color after a two year period.
Melaleuca: Another Australian native, the Melaleuca invasion of Florida�s wetlands has prompted its popular use as mulch. The entire tree is harvested, chipped, and heated to kill the seeds, and sold as landscape mulch. Of the mulches tested, Melaleuca showed the least amount of settling after two years in the landscape, and retained its color fairly well over the same time period.
Red mulch: One of the most popular and least expensive, what�s known as red mulch is produced from hardwood forest scraps or small tree stems, or in some cases, from recycled, shredded waste wood. The dye used to produce the bright red color looks attractive when new. It provides a nice, though short-lived, contrast to green plants, as the color fades quickly in the sun and can leach quickly with applications of water (irrigation, rain).
In some areas, this particular mulch is available in blue, black, green, and brown. The origins and compositions of red mulch are not well defined and it was not included in the UF studies.
The six mulches discussed above will work well for most landscapes, but there is a wide variety of other interesting materials that may be used, depending on preference. Pea gravel, river pebbles, and pond pebbles represent ascending size order if rock suits a particular application. For a really special look, consider the sparkling effect of crushed and processed glass. Although not recommended for playgrounds, or walking paths, it is particularly eye-catching in small areas, such as around the base of a fountain, and is available in several colors. Visit Landscape Glass | Terrazzo Glass | Fireplace Glass | Aquarium Glass | Fire Pit Glass (http://www.americanspecialtyglass.com) or try EnviroGlas (http://www.enviroglasproducts.com) for some interesting ideas.
So which is the best mulch? The one that best suits the individual application, of course.
___
Pre-emptive weed strikes for mulch
Even the deepest of mulch will eventually have some weeds growing through it. The best protection is to keep them from getting started, even before you lay down mulch. Here are ideas from various sources:
� Make sure the ground underneath your mulch is weed-free. Don�t expect a layer of mulch to kill what�s under it. If you are starting a bed and working in topsoil before you mulch, make sure whatever soil you buy is certified weed-free.
� Before adding the mulch, spray the ground that doesn�t have bedding plants with corn gluten (available at farm stores) or a commercially prepared pre-emergent, such as Preen �n� Green, for the prolific plant growth in the South.
� Cover the ground before you mulch. You may prefer a garden fabric, a tough, woven dark tarp that will eventually decompose but which limits weed germination to the mulched area. It also keeps weed roots from establishing any depth underground. An easy, low-cost alternative is to layer the area to be mulched with four sheets of newspaper. Do not use glossy-finish or magazine stock.
If weeds are already established in the area you�ve mulched, here are several suggestions for getting them out:
� Pull them out by the roots, but make sure you have all of the subterranean plant. This is especially important with weeds that propagate through underground runners, such as sedge and dollarweed.
� Pour boiling water on the weeds. This will kill many of them by cooking them. Those with the deepest roots may come back and require a second bath a month later.
� Spray a full-spectrum herbicide such as Roundup on the offending weeds. Be careful to spray when wind is low to avoid drift.
� Harriet Howard Heithaus
� 2008 Naples Daily News. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed. (http://www.naplesnews.com/privacy/) http://analytics.apnewsregistry.com/analytics/v2/image.svc/NPDN/MAI/npdn_179220_2008-08-22T190200-0400/RWS/naplesnews.com/PC/Basic/

[angiefox10]

I prefer rock... I like the way it looks... *smile*

[justjim]

Technically the "expert" is correct about the Queen Palms. But most are willing to take the risk----it could be years before we have the type of freeze that will kill your Queens. Rock is low maintenance and I'm all about low maintenance! This time we planted Sabals and Sylvester's----they are attractive, hearty and have rock around them.

[jimbo2012]

I met with the 2 head extension agents last week.

They were very opposed to Queens, they are one of the least expensive so they sell good.

But you can get Sabal, the FL state palm, for about the same money, both are about $100-125 each.

If you listen to their reasoning again t rocks it makes perfect sense.

I was doing rock but now I'm not.

If you want get their 115 page book it's free, it will teach you when speaking landscapers who knows what they are talking about.

[jimbo2012]

I prefer rock... I like the way it looks... *smile*

No surprise there :1rotfl:

[skyc6]

No surprise there :1rotfl:

Having seen Angie's landscaping, I will agree with Jimbo that her lawn and landscaping is absolutely beautiful! It is professional and has a totally tropical feel to it. Her rock edges are really a lovely final touch.

[Newbeginnings]

You would distrust information from an expert and come to TOTV for landscaping advice? :rolleyes:

I was interested in who had Palms that lasted longer than 3 years here, that's all, and if the rock did impact those plants that have been established for a long time here. I am new so just asking for more information from the group on TOTV.

[Bogie Shooter]

I was interested in who had Palms that lasted longer than 3 years here, that's all, and if the rock did impact those plants that have been established for a long time here. I am new so just asking for more information from the group on TOTV.

You really don't have to explain why you posted, especially to a Jets fan. They are so frustrated.:laugh:

[shcisamax]

I am actually going to use rock in back where the lanai/pool area is located and the machinery on the side. I won't be doing too much complicated landscaping there so figure the rock will look more tropical around the pool and outdoor area. In front, where I am going to want to play a little with different plants at different times, it will be mulched. It will be interesting to see if one outperforms the other.

[Mikeod]

I was interested in who had Palms that lasted longer than 3 years here, that's all, and if the rock did impact those plants that have been established for a long time here. I am new so just asking for more information from the group on TOTV.
I've had my queen palms for almost 7 years and they've had rock around them all that time except against the trunk. The one that was taken out developed a problem about 3-4 feet above the soil line, definitely not due to the rock.

[tucson]

I had 3 Queen Palms for 3 yrs. and when TV got hit by the big tornado, it did'nt uproot any of them, but it DID reck my house......

[Uptown Girl]

My neighbors have Mule Palms. I am told they are a hybrid of Queen Palms x King palms. They have a larger diameter trunk than Queens and were developed to withstand a bit colder temps. They are nice looking!

In addition to the possibility of internal freezing of Queens during sustained cold/freeze spells, there is a possibility of a palm virus migrating to Central Florida that Queens will be susceptible to.

It has been recorded in Florida now (not HERE yet) and is something new, so not much is known about it.
This happens in the plant world sometimes. For one example,

Sago Palms have been prone to a disease or virus (for the last few years) that is severely causing their numbers to dwindle here. Some Sagos are resistant to the virus, but some are not and so on the ones with impaired resistance, often scale (insects) settle inside where they are hidden and the combo of scale and virus makes for the plant's certain demise over time.

I am told that there is no way to tell ahead of time if a Sago is virus-free or not and they have not developed a remedy, so for that reason, many are not selling them presently.

Long-lived Sagos have grown in Florida since the dinosaur age. They are called 'living fossils' in the plant world. Unfortunately, new viruses happen.

If you are concerned about the use of rock,
one thing you can do is to include low growing plants like creeping juniper or oyster plant in a diameter area around your palms. Then any rock used can be kept a bit away from the plant, and mulch will not be needed, as these plants will act as your ground cover.

That is cool that there was such a course at the College.
Did I mention I love this place?

[Rons Landscaping]

If you would refer to a post I made on 1-07-13 "TURN YOUR IRRIGATION OFF" you can read what I mentioned about Queen Palm survival here in The Villages. Also you can go to our web-site at www.ron'slandscapinginc.com and click on trees, you will see what cold weather does to Queen Palms. That picture was taken here in The Villages, and that damage was from a freeze that happened here a few years ago that is just showing up now.

Thanks Ron's Landscaping Inc.

[Serenoa]

Mule palms are typically a cross between a Pindo (Butia capitata) & a Queen (Syagarus romanzoffianum) and retain much of the Queen's appearance (greener than a Pindo) while being more cold hardy like the Pindo, and also much slower growing like the Pindo.

Here's a pic I took at Villages Palms of a Mule (on the left) and then a regular Queen to the right of it. I believe the Mule was in the $600 -$700 range.

Let me also say this. When we eventually move to TV I will not hesitate to plant Queens, Roebeliniis, Paurotis and other marginally hardy palms for that area. I currently grow butias, sabal palmettos & windmills up here in Alabama. Pretty sure I'll be more than ready to move on to the more "exotic". So far this winter our low temp here is 28F......tempting me more & more to roll the dice & plant a Sylvester. Hope our "warm" winters continue.

Happy palm growing to all......

http://i445.photobucket.com/albums/qq177/jalaughead/DSCN1729_zps21bec592.jpg

[CFrance]

I have tried mulch, pine straw, bark nuggets and landscape rock in the past 10 years. I have now gone back to landscape rock but I pull the rock away from the base of plants and bushes to avoid the problem of overheating the soil above the plant roots during the summer season and have found this to be the best for me. Everyone has their own preferences and tastes, but I love the neat look of the rock and it is maintenance free. The other options all fade out in color and lose their good looks fairly quickly, but rocks always retain their neat aesthetic value. The other options also bring lots of ticks and spiders.

Could you give an idea of how far back you pull the rocks? Say, for ligustrum trees, bottlebrush umbrellas, and a crepe myrtle?

[Uptown Girl]

[QUOTE=Serenoa;625919]Mule palms are typically a cross between a Pindo (Butia capitata) & a Queen (Syagarus romanzoffianum)

Doing more research on my part confirms that you are absolutely right!
Good Job... Thanks!

[mickey100]

The mules make much more sense to me - you can possibly avoid that Queen Palm virus, they're not as tall, making for easier maintenance, and much more hardy. Perfect!

[jimbo2012]

where have you seen them and at what prices for the mules?

[gomoho]

Jimbo - the pics were taken at Village Palms and she quoted she believed the price for the mule between $600 and $700. They are pricey.

[jimbo2012]

yep there are not any deals over there that's for sure, I found a grower, sent an email for pricing.

So far I see 15 gallon size for about $75

3G $50, 30 gal $200

[bluedog103]

You really don't have to explain why you posted, especially to a Jets fan. They are so frustrated.:laugh:

Bogie, frustrated is an understatement. I could go on and on about my feelings but most of my comments would be profane so I'll just leave it them unsaid.

[angiefox10]

Actually... It is a good price. Check this out!

Floridas Best Trees - Mule Palms (http://floridasbesttrees.com/mule_palms)

Village Palms is a quality company... Family owned and has been around for awhile.

Be careful of the companies who haven't been around. As I said before. There are many good landscapers in The Villages. Drive around and check out landscaping in older villages... If you like something... stop and talk to the people who live there! We love to talk about what we have done to our homes! They will tell you who they used and if that person came back when there were problems... or even gave you your money back if you weren't completely satisfied! You don't have to do your landscaping right away! It's an expensive project... take your time!

[Serenoa]

Another Florida nursery that grows Mules is Moultrie Palms, up near St. Augustine. I've never bought from them, but have heard a lot of good things from other palm nuts like myself. They might be a little closer to TV, too than the nursery that Angiefox linked. If you have the means to transport I'm sure you could save quite a bit of money over buying one locally.

About Moultrie Palms (http://www.moultriepalms.com/Pages/default.aspx)

[gjbl8114]

i just attended a class at the Life Long Learning College on landscaping, it was thru the IFAS, the instructor was great he has a very good background, teaches at the University of Florida and does certifications. One of the first things he said was "don't plant Queen Palms here" we are in zone 9A and they will freeze out eventually. Also stated is that the landscaping rocks deprive the landscaping plants of nutrients and heat the ground too much, he suggested using an organic matter or pine straw. I don't have Queens but am interested in those that have them for more than 3 years, do they last here in your experience ? I see all kinds of them going up in the new landscaping around here as I live in the new section south of 466A and questioning the landscape companies selling these trees that are doomed. Sad to say I did put in rock, but I see it everywhere, and the most reputable landscape companies are putting it in.

DON'T DO IT!!!! Queen Palms are fast growers and tend to accentuate landscaping, however, they are problemmatic and require an enormous amount of maintenance, not to mention when the seed pods come out on them. We have (had) three - now only two. The winter o 2009 claimed one. When we inquired about having the tree removed, the cost was unbelievable. We ended up leaving the stump because the roots were so entangled into the sprinkler system - would have required major repair to sprinkler system. They are a nuisance. If you don't want the expense of major maintenance and annoying seedling issues that, by the way, stain your driveway - DON'T DO IT...... By the way, I live south of 466.

[Serenoa]

Jimbo - the pics were taken at Village Palms and she quoted she believed the price for the mule between $600 and $700. They are pricey.

Gomoho, not that it makes much difference on here, but just for the record I'm a MALE palm growin nut, not a female. :D

[gomoho]

Gomoho, not that it makes much difference on here, but just for the record I'm a MALE palm growin nut, not a female. :D

I stand corrected :bowdown:

[petenj]

You would distrust information from an expert and come to TOTV for landscaping advice? :rolleyes:

IMHO Good Point!

[Barefoot]

DON'T DO IT!!!! Queen Palms are fast growers and tend to accentuate landscaping, however, they are problemmatic and require an enormous amount of maintenance, not to mention when the seed pods come out on them. We have (had) three - now only two. The winter o 2009 claimed one. If you don't want the expense of major maintenance and annoying seedling issues that, by the way, stain your driveway - DON'T DO IT...... By the way, I live south of 466.

We've had queen palms since 2007 and we enjoy them, no problems. We also have a double Sylvester that we love. We replaced all our mulch with rock.

[Irishlass]

I have had three huge Queens installed 5 years ago. So far they're fine.

[JB in TV]

I have to laugh about landscape rock overheating the soil around the plants. We just moved here from Southern AZ, Tucson to be exact, and it gets very hot there... Pretty much 4 months where it is over 100 degres almost every day. With alot of direct sunshine, most, if not all yards there have rock, and the plants survive just fine, as long as they get daily water. I suspect that the rock vs mulch/pine needles etc debate is mostly based on personal preference.

[kittygilchrist]

Debbie, thanks for this thread and angie for the tome of info! I had citrus trees in the zone north of here (Gainesville) and they survived the winter of 2010 because they were planted near the concrete and asphalt curb that absorbed heat in daytime. Frosty Florida sets record low temperatures - USATODAY.com (http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/weather/news/extremes/2010-01-11-florida-cold_N.htm)

Soooo, if you plant queens and use rock, you have a better chance they'll survive cold.
Kitty

[gomoho]

I have to laugh about landscape rock overheating the soil around the plants. We just moved here from Southern AZ, Tucson to be exact, and it gets very hot there... Pretty much 4 months where it is over 100 degres almost every day. With alot of direct sunshine, most, if not all yards there have rock, and the plants survive just fine, as long as they get daily water. I suspect that the rock vs mulch/pine needles etc debate is mostly based on personal preference.

JB - totally different ballgame in the desert. Most of what we grew there thrived on hot, hot, and more hot. Here the plantings thrive on high humidity along with the heat. Can see where rock would rob these plants of needed moisuture and humidity, but at the same time stuff is thriving here that is planted in nothing more than sand with rock around it. Go figure!

[kstew43]

Queen Palms are NOT self cleaning. :MOJE_whot: Don't do it....

[janeg]

I wholeheartedly agree about not using Queen Palms. Many who have planted them north of 466a are now paying a lot of money to have them removed! Don't do it. If you go on the Florida Master Gardener website there are pretty alternatives. I like the rocks and our property is tiny so I'll use them when we finally get down there.

Good luck and have fun at the nursery!

[jimbo2012]

having a Queen indicates that U or your landscapers doesn't know palms.

Go Google it, call the Fl univ, call Rons landscaping, they can't take the low temps.

There R 35 safe palms to plant here, skip the Queen

[gomoho]

There is something very appealing about the Queen Palm - it is alive and flowing and rustles in the wind. I was initially enthralled until I started doing some research. If you love the weeping, rather than upright look of a palm and want something that is perfectly suited to our climate look at either the Ribbon or Australian Palm. They are
graceful and have a beautiful reddish trunk and not messy. Now you will pay more than you would for a Queen, but you probably won't have to remove and replace it in your lifetime.