What is wrong with cops these days?

[telder]

Nursing home resident dead after confrontation with police
Last edited Sun Jul 28, 2013, 01:20 AM USA/ET - Edit history (1)

Source: NBC

A 95-year-old resident of an Illinois nursing home died early Saturday, hours after being shocked with a Taser and bean bag rounds in a confrontation with police.

Authorities said John Warna was a resident at Victory Centre of Park Forest, on the 100 block of South Main Street in the south suburb. He was threatening paramedics and staff with a cane and a metal shoehorn when police arrived at the complex, they said.

Police said they struck him with a Taser and bean bag rounds after he threatened officers with a 12-inch butcher knife.

Warna was taken to Advocate Christ Medical Center, where he later died.


Read more: Nursing home resident dead after confrontation with police - U.S. News (http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/07/27/19720753-nursing-home-resident-dead-after-confrontation-with-police?lite)


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FFS, if you have to use a taser and bean bag rounds on a 95-year-old with a cane and a shoehorn, you don't need to be in law enforcement.

This is murder, pure and simple. You don't use a taser on a 95-year-old who is so incapacitated he has to live in a nursing home. Any reasonable person would realize that the use of a taser AND bean bags rounds will result in death for someone of that age.



On edit: Oh but wait! This nonagenarian had a BUTCHER KNIFE! I guess they showed restraint when they didn't pump him full of lead.

[Golfingnut]

A weapon can be many things. I think they did what needed to be done. I support the police on this one.

[BarryRX]

Very unfortunate, but being threatened with a kitchen knife and trying to end the confrontation with non-lethal tactics sounds like the right thing to do.

[ajbrown]

One of those sad stories that needs some facts and context. In general I side with the people in the 'line of fire' making decisions in an instant, but it is always good to have checks and balances.

Here is another article if you are interested:

Did cops need a Taser, riot shield and shotgun to subdue a 95-year-old veteran? - Chicago Tribune (http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-08-03/news/ct-met-kass-0802-20130803_1_butcher-type-kitchen-knife-park-forest-police-taser)

I just hope folks have enough sense to not says something like the "police acted stupidly " without all of the facts....but who would do that?

[Golfingnut]

One of those sad stories that needs some facts and context. In general I side with the people in the 'line of fire' making decisions in an instant, but it is always good to have checks and balances.

Here is another article if you are interested:

Did cops need a Taser, riot shield and shotgun to subdue a 95-year-old veteran? - Chicago Tribune (http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-08-03/news/ct-met-kass-0802-20130803_1_butcher-type-kitchen-knife-park-forest-police-taser)

I just hope folks have enough sense to not says something like the "police acted stupidly " without all of the facts....but who would do that?

That is another version of the story, but even if that is true, they did what had to be done.

[Chief X]

simply stated - Monday morning quarterbacking is wrong. It's always easy to say what someone (police) should have done, after the fact. Put yourself in that position. A split second can mean life or death in many volatile situations. Officers typically don't have the time to sit down and discuss the "best option" in each case. I always supported my officers for their actions up until the time that all of the "facts" were presented. "Facts" - not reported to me by the media. I would label this thread "What is wrong with society" not "Cops"

[graciegirl]

I still believe in law enforcement. I couldn't be quick to accuse them of wrong doing. There are exceptions to everything but most police officers protect us well and face absolutely difficult decisions dealing with the worst behavior every day..

[ugotme]

If my son or daughter was one of the cops in question - I would be glad he/she came home alive !

[janmcn]

What the heck was a 95 year old nursing home resident, who may have had some form of dementia, doing with a 12 inch butcher knife? It seems the nursing home may have some culpability in this case.

[redwitch]

I absolutely refuse to lay the blame on anyone on this -- I'm sure there will be an investigation. Once all facts are out, then we can discuss the cause, consequences, actions but not before.

Personally, I've found most police officers to be human (LA cops may be iffy on this one) -- they do the best they can with the training they've had. Some have better training than others; some have better educations; some truly care about the citizenry; some are in it for the pay check; some for the position of power. So, I'll stand on the side of officers until facts tell a different story.

[kittygilchrist]

I'm not getting into this.

[buggyone]

It certainly looks as though the police over-reacted by using the "beanbag" shotgun round on an old person at a close range - rupturing his spleen.

You would think that a 95 year old man would be pretty frail and that two police officers would be able to have subdued him by some non-lethal method even as simple as two officers throwing a blanket over him.

We don't know all the circumstances but from what has been on the internet, the police overstepped the bounds of disarming and does not look as though they were in imminent danger so the beanbag round was not necessary.

Chances are that the officers are going to face a stiff penalty and the family will have a big lawsuit collected.

[Corey19]

You shouldn't judge people 1st ) before you get all the information & 2 nd ) if you have not walked in there shoes.

[Bucco]

You shouldn't judge people 1st ) before you get all the information & 2 nd ) if you have not walked in there shoes.

Amen to that. REDWITCH alluded to the fact that cops are not perfect, and they are not all doing it for what we might consider the right reasons, but if the phrase "walk a mile in their shoes" ever applied it does to cops.

Check out today's Daily News where already a "cute" young boy was killed by cops and Travon Martin's name was brought up.

“Trayvon Martin is never going to end. Sean Bell happened to my nephew,” she said. “This rookie cop — please bring him up on charges as a murderer.”



Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/bronx/cops-shoot-kill-bronx-gunman-article-1.1417158#ixzz2b8f4WoZ1

[gomoho]

And if this was your father???

[Bucco]

And if this was your father???

Not sure who your question was intended for but my post had to do with cops in general, and I fall into the category of those posters who are not judging but searching for context.

[billethkid]

Monday morning quarterbacking is oh so easy.

Reaching a conclusion without first hand knowledge or facts is even easier....actually that would be better called a biased guess.

btk

[justjim]

Two cops can't handle a 95 year old man in a nursing home with a butcher knife. Give me a break.

[buggyone]

Amen to that. REDWITCH alluded to the fact that cops are not perfect, and they are not all doing it for what we might consider the right reasons, but if the phrase "walk a mile in their shoes" ever applied it does to cops.

Check out today's Daily News where already a "cute" young boy was killed by cops and Travon Martin's name was brought up.

“Trayvon Martin is never going to end. Sean Bell happened to my nephew,” she said. “This rookie cop — please bring him up on charges as a murderer.”



Read more: Cops shoot and kill 14-year-old gunman in the Bronx - NY Daily News (http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/bronx/cops-shoot-kill-bronx-gunman-article-1.1417158#ixzz2b8f4WoZ1)

Of course a distraught aunt is going to say irrational things when her teen nephew was killed by a police officer. That is only human nature.

From the article, it sure sounds like a fully justified shooting by the police.

[bimmertl]

Fort Worth Police Shoot And Kill 72-Year-Old Man In His Home After Going To Wrong House On Burglary Call | JONATHAN TURLEY (http://jonathanturley.org/2013/07/29/fort-worth-police-shoot-and-kill-72-year-old-man-in-his-home-after-going-to-wrong-house-on-burglary-call/)

Five Officers Stop Woman For Missing Sticker, Search Car For Drugs, And Then Give Back Phone After Nude Photos Allegedly Transferred By Officer | JONATHAN TURLEY (http://jonathanturley.org/2013/07/23/five-officers-stop-woman-for-missing-sticker-search-car-for-drugs-and-then-give-back-phone-after-nude-photos-allegedly-transferred-by-officer/)


Florida Gators Linebacker Antonio Morrison Arrested For Barking At Police Dog | JONATHAN TURLEY (http://jonathanturley.org/2013/07/22/florida-gaters-linebacker-antonio-morrison-arrested-for-barking-at-police-dog/)

ttp://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-torey-breedlove-lawsuit-settle-20130723,0,3728541.story

[graciegirl]

We don't know what happened exactly. Law enforcement officers are supposed to know what they are doing and are trained to handle a bunch of difficult decisions. No one would want their father killed in such a way and no one would want their brother stabbed with a butcher knife.

It could have been a reasonable way to handle it or it could have been over the top. We call the police to restore order and to handle things we cannot handle.

It is my life experience to have never met a police office that I couldn't respect but we didn't have much dealings with police officers in our life either.

[CaptJohn]

As long as we're all guessing here, I think the 95 year old man with the butcher knife was running full speed at the cops and lunged at them trying to slash them! :laugh:

PS. Kitty is the smartest of us...........she stayed out of it! :laugh:

[Parker]

You weren't there. I'm sure the use of tasers and bean bags wasn't a gleeful moment for those officers.

[rubicon]

The term "the war on (you fill in he blank) has been overused in our society.
Both police and citizens have hardly noticed that ever since the 1960's our police departments have become more and more militarized (SWAT teams , etc) the war on drugs, crime etc. There are ample examples of over zealous cops whose actions at minimum were negligent. Many police departments fail in educating police in situations involving mental patients who much act like this 95 year old and as a consequence police only exacerbate the situation creating unnecessary harm to these people

It is not in our American nature to pre-judge those who protect us solders, cops, etc but the fact remains that given the nature of human beings we fail sometimes. In that same vein police departments are known for not crossing that line of silence.

In this situation, if true, the medical staff requested tending to the 95 year old and since they dealt with this guy chances are they could have controlled this situation.

There is a deeper issue here and as stated above it has to do with the changing attitude of the role police play in our lives and the challenges it creates to the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Amendments

As to individual situations such as this the truth depends on whose ox is being gored.

My prayers extend to both this 95 year old man and the police involved

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

This is murder, pure and simple.

I think that a lot of people need to look up the legal definition of the word murder before making statements like this. I am really getting tired of so many people using this term inappropriately.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

In this situation, if true, the medical staff requested tending to the 95 year old and since they dealt with this guy chances are they could have controlled this situation.

Of course. And then if one of the medical personnel is stabbed they sue the police instead of the family of the perp.

[rubicon]

Of course. And then if one of the medical personnel is stabbed they sue the police instead of the family of the perp.

If a family exists for the 95 year old you don't think that the family won't sue the police dept. Those suit are funded in part by taxpayers in many situations. I believe some people who read this story stopped when the read the man was 95. I mean how much time did he have left anyway and at what quality of life. As I explained above we have some real issues here with the militarization of police departments and citizen constitutional rights. This sort of thing may be OK in Russia or China but it is not here.

I didn't give my personal view above because of the bigger issues I advanced but honestly taking down a 95 year old confused man just does not compute in my mind...and I still feel the staff people could have managed the issue as they are confronted with this type behavior daily whereas the police are not which is way theyt shot first .

I managed many municipalities and had had my share of defending lawsuits against police departments, etc and as such have some background experience in what actually goes on. I'll stop here. Police do have a difficult job

[Figmo Bohica]

First Degree Murder:

When one commits a murder purposely, it is considered first-degree, which, in Florida, is punishable by death. First-degree murder is most commonly referred to as “premeditated murder.” How long does one have to premeditate a murder for it to be considered first-degree? It could be a split second. If someone were to point a gun at someone and aim it at their heart instead of just shooting quickly, they’re in the premeditation zone.

Second Degree Murder:

When one commits a killing knowingly-—meaning that they are acting with a conscious awareness that they are doing something that could end another’s life, then they are committing second degree murder.
When one commits a killing recklessly, they are acting with a conscious disregard for another person’s life—-or they are acting in a way that could cause a substantial and unjustifiable risk to that person. In Florida, when one commits a killing knowingly or recklessly, he or she can also be charged with second-degree murder, which carries up to life in prison.

Just so that you know the difference between the two. If you were not there, hav eto wait until all the investigation is complete then make a judgement call.

[Virtual Geezer]

Hope the link work. Back in November there was a police chase in Cleveland Ohio and of the 277 officers on duty that night 104 were involved in the chase. It ender in 137 shots being fired at two unarmed suspects killing both of them. I believe it all started when one car on patrol heard shots being fired and saw a car speeding and assumed they were the shooters.

75 patrol officers found in violation in deadly Cleveland police chase (http://www.newsnet5.com/dpp/news/local_news/cleveland_metro/75-patrol-officers-found-in-violation-in-deadly-cleveland-police-chase)

VG

[John_W]

The Cook County medical examiner's office said the cause of death was hemoperitoneum – bleeding in the stomach area from blunt force trauma from being shot with a bean bag gun.

The autopsy showed the bean bags caused his death. I would believe that beans bags would be the weapon of choice when confronting an elderly citizen. Had the policeman took the man down to the ground in a head lock or some other type of control maneuver, he would of probably suffered broken bones at minimum. The officers were probably trained to use bean bags in just this sort of confrontation. It could of been a case of suicide by police. When they ordered him to drop his cane and shoe horn, he picked up the butcher knife. At the age of 95, maybe this fellow felt it was his time to go.

[BobnBev]

Hope the link work. Back in November there was a police chase in Cleveland Ohio and of the 277 officers on duty that night 104 were involved in the chase. It ender in 137 shots being fired at two unarmed suspects killing both of them. I believe it all started when one car on patrol heard shots being fired and saw a car speeding and assumed they were the shooters.

75 patrol officers found in violation in deadly Cleveland police chase (http://www.newsnet5.com/dpp/news/local_news/cleveland_metro/75-patrol-officers-found-in-violation-in-deadly-cleveland-police-chase)

VG

WOW!!!! 135 warning shots, the other 2 were fatal. :a040::a040:

[tag460]

The post should be whats wrong with people today why they give police the respect & cooperation they deserve.