Athiests in Foxholes

[Golfingnut]

Since I could not shake a statement I heard out of my mind, I went into research mode. The statement: THERE ARE NO ATHEISTS IN FOXHOLES,!

Really, well it turns out that is not the case. I found a very good read on the subject.

Military Association of Atheists & Freethinkers | Atheists in Foxholes, in Cockpits, and on Ships - Military Association of Atheists & Freethinkers (http://militaryatheists.org/atheists-in-foxholes/)

[BarryRX]

I think the statement "there are no atheists in foxholes" refers to a situation that many veterans in TV can relate to. It means being under heavy attack with sappers in the wire, rockets and mortars everywhere, the night lighting up with tracers so thick it doesn't seem that anyone can survive. Flares going off while you struggle to keep whatever night vision you can. In those circumstances, the saying implies that even an atheist will pray to survive the night. It does not mean that you can't be in the military and still be an atheist anymore than someone praying to survive another few minutes proves the existence of a higher power. The search for truth that you seem to be on is a worthwhile journey, whether or not it brings you closer to atheism or closer to a relationship with a higher power. I personally lean towards atheism but that comes after my own travels through Judaism, Christianity, Mormonism, and Buddhism. Good luck on your journey. This is certainly a case where the journey itself is as rewarding as the destination.

[rubicon]

This is a personal issue and can be very explosive for some. In my view there is no one on earth that can answer it. They may believe they have the answer but they can never using science make such a conclusion.

In effect for me one of two things is going to occur following my last breath either I will move toward the bright light or there will be nothing. If the former than a consciousness continues if the latter well it doesn't and I won't know. I prefer the former to occur. I believe prayer, the golden rule the ten commandments and following the good example Jesus provided are better for me and for society. I also believe in what was once termed the Protestant Ethic and hence believe in a capitalistic society To continue an argument about the existence of God that no one can prove is counter-productive and often is hurtful.

Some people have blind faith and I really do admire them for their deep commitment. Some people are agnostic and some atheists and I will respect their right to question the god concept. However, I abhor an in your face approach on this subject. So unless there is a specific reason for such discussion such a group of people gathered for such purposeful discussion silence seems the better choice

[graciegirl]

What happens to each of us when we are faced with life threatening or devastating situations is personal, often not understandable, or reasonable or even good.


None of us can give another an absolute.


I have been in a couple of foxholes of life and completely lost faith in God, and a few others and found Him close to me.


I wish anyone, ANYONE in any foxhole, anywhere, of any kind............


Comfort to some degree. And if we survive that foxhole, compassion for others in the same boat.

[graciegirl]

I am glad you didn't start a thread on Santa's complexion bothering folks. I just saw that on The Today show.




Merry Christmas everyone.

[Taltarzac725]

Since I could not shake a statement I heard out of my mind, I went into research mode. The statement: THERE ARE NO ATHEISTS IN FOXHOLES,!

Really, well it turns out that is not the case. I found a very good read on the subject.

Military Association of Atheists & Freethinkers | Atheists in Foxholes, in Cockpits, and on Ships - Military Association of Atheists & Freethinkers (http://militaryatheists.org/atheists-in-foxholes/)

Please, no offense to anyone, it is just that I am on a constant quest to find the rest of the story i.e. The truth. Only in my weird opinion, does truth out weigh fiction.


There is also this monument. Atheists In Foxholes - Freedom From Religion Foundation (http://ffrf.org/outreach/atheists-in-foxholes)

I am a deeply spiritual person but not much of a church goer as I find most services rather boring. Raised a Lutheran but minored in Religious Studies at the University of Nevada, Reno and attended BYU Law School for a short period in 1982. Also dabbled with the Unification Church for about 4 hours total around 1978 until they kicked me out for being too argumentative! https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/555303-post2.html Did a lot of church hopping as well in Reno, Nevada when I was trying to get a fix on different religions.

It seems to be up to each person to have their own journey to or away from whatever God they might envision. My Lutheran background seems to creep back into everything with the emphasis on personal relationships to God.

[donb9006]

It's funny how in times of desperation...people will go to any measures for some comfort...real or imagined.

[billethkid]

the need to pigeon hole personal beliefs according to one's own bearing is somewhat limiting of reality given the diversity of individuals whether by race, religion or any other characterization is at best futile, however personal.

I, like many, do not have the time of day for those who use their personal beliefs to minimize or belittle the belief of others (and this statement is not to be interpreted as aimed at ANYTHING that has been posted...because it is not!).

As far as any search for which is best or not or other I personally put that in the category of trying to step into the same spot of water in a flowing stream....good luck.

Opinions and beliefs are as varied as there are individuals and there is no individual qualified to measure another.

btk

[kittygilchrist]

Would you define atheist as someone who believes there is no God because they cannot prove it logically to their satisfaction?
If so, then I would ask how one can firmly disbelieve something that cannot be proved or disproved? Why take such an illogical position?
It seems as irrational to me to disbelieve as to believe since neither position is subject to empirical proof.

[2BNTV]

I find comfort in believing in a higher power, and the power of prayer.

Therefore, I would not find any comfort in being an atheists.

People should follow the dictates of their concious, and seek the truth, in what is right for them, Anything else, is folly. IMHO

[BarryRX]

Would you define atheist as someone who believes there is no God because they cannot prove it logically to their satisfaction?
If so, then I would ask how one can firmly disbelieve something that cannot be proved or disproved? Why take such an illogical position?
It seems as irrational to me to disbelieve as to believe since neither position is subject to empirical proof.

I understand what you're saying Kitty, but if I were to say to you that somewhere on Earth there is a squirrel that speaks perfect english, it would not be your task to prove my statement wrong, it would be my task to prove my statement right. It is not illogical to believe that a talking squirrel doesn't exist without proof of its existence. But it is illogical to believe that a talking squirrel does exist without proof. So even though it appears that both statements are just two sides of the same coin, they are not.

[Cisco Kid]

Another thread to stir the pot that will soon be closed. :D

[eweissenbach]

Another thread to stir the pot that will soon be closed. :D

Ohhhh Cisco!

[capecodbob]

The statement "There are no atheists in foxholes" is an aphorism used to argue that in times of extreme stress or fear, such as in war, all people will believe in, or hope for, a higher power.
The origin of the quotation is uncertain. U. S. Military Chaplain William Thomas Cummings may have said it in a field sermon during the Battle of Bataan in 1942.

The above gleaned from Wikipedia.

But atheists are on a mission and what we see here is a "toe in the water" and a very coy way of moving on to more "troubling thoughts" that they have with the believers.
Get prayer out of the schools, bibles out of motels, no crosses anywhere, and minimize any faith.

[Cisco Kid]

Ohhhh Cisco!

I have been spanked so many times even I can spot them.

I am slow, but I get there.

[RLL39]

Since I could not shake a statement I heard out of my mind, I went into research mode. The statement: THERE ARE NO ATHEISTS IN FOXHOLES,!

Really, well it turns out that is not the case. I found a very good read on the subject.

Military Association of Atheists & Freethinkers | Atheists in Foxholes, in Cockpits, and on Ships - Military Association of Atheists & Freethinkers (http://militaryatheists.org/atheists-in-foxholes/)

Please, no offense to anyone, it is just that I am on a constant quest to find the rest of the story i.e. The truth. Only in my weird opinion, does truth out weigh fiction.

Why are scientists true believers? Is there something they know..?
Food for thought whilest in your foxhole. "We are not alone.." Check it out. (sound on).

Hubble Ultra Deep Field 3D (http://www.flixxy.com/hubble-ultra-deep-field-3d.htm)

[graciegirl]

All threads take on new personality quickly. I am the OP of this one with one intention. That was to make the case that there are in fact Atheists in foxholes over the centuries. That unfortunately has caught the eye of even one conspiracy theorist. I openly admit that I am not smart or clever enough to configure a conspiracy. Because I have been the victim of my own gullibility I tend not to take every statement as the truth and have became somewhat confident at research to find the real deal. Nothing sneaky here, just that although THERE ARE NO ATHEISTS IN A FOXHOLE is a very inspiring saying, IT IS NOT A FACT.





So?


I say what I said yesterday. I am an OLD teacher and I can spot a boy spoiling for a fight from thirty paces.


Do you feel better?


Does anyone?

[CraigC]

I tend not to take every statement as the truth and have became somewhat confident at research to find the real deal. Nothing sneaky here, just that although THERE ARE NO ATHEISTS IN A FOXHOLE is a very inspiring saying, IT IS NOT A FACT.

I can't believe that anyone else believed that this statement was a FACT. I do believe like many sayings, it is a statement that is largely true. Is there anyone else out there that believed that this statement was intended as an absolute fact?

[Villages PL]

I didn't have a strict religious upbringing. On Sunday, anyone who felt like going to church went to church. Usually, it was one of my brothers and my sister who went. Then after our noontime meal, the whole family would go for a drive. I went to church with my brother once and didn't understand what it was all about, so I didn't continue going.

At nine years old I almost died from an asthma attack. I remember thinking that I was going to die. At that time it didn't occur to me to start thinking about anything except trying to get my next breath of air.

Years later I almost drowned while trying to swim in fresh water. I went under water 2 or 3 times. I struggled one last time to get to the surface and a very young boy threw me an inner tube (from an overhead bridge). He saved my life. Again: there was no time to think about anything other than trying to survive.

Twice I had loaded guns pointed at me, but I mostly thought about trying to convince them not to shoot me. And, luckily, I'm still here.

The bottom line: I don't think the threat of death will suddenly change a person. Most of the time there's no time to think about it. And even if there is time, the seeds of belief have to be planted very early in life.

[Cisco Kid]

So?


I say what I said yesterday. I am an OLD teacher and I can spot a boy spoiling for a fight from thirty paces.


Do you feel better?


Does anyone?

:BigApplause:

[Bucco]

Not sure if I understand the reason behind this thread. If, as the OP states, he is a searcher of truth, read post #13 and go to work...if not enough, I will be happy to supply some.

Seems to me, again, you prey on others beliefs for your entertainment, as you know there is no truth here....just fun for you in riling others.

[kittygilchrist]

I understand what you're saying Kitty, but if I were to say to you that somewhere on Earth there is a squirrel that speaks perfect english, it would not be your task to prove my statement wrong, it would be my task to prove my statement right. It is not illogical to believe that a talking squirrel doesn't exist without proof of its existence. But it is illogical to believe that a talking squirrel does exist without proof. So even though it appears that both statements are just two sides of the same coin, they are not.

How well you illustrate exactly and more to the point than I...
why in all rational thought would one adopt a position against English speaking squirrels?
or equally illogical, against a God who loves you and gave the life of a human-born son out of love?
there is nothing rational about either...perhaps a squirrel talks, or perhaps trillions of believers are wrong.

[Carl in Tampa]

The statement "There are no atheists in foxholes" is an aphorism used to argue that in times of extreme stress or fear, such as in war, all people will believe in, or hope for, a higher power.
The origin of the quotation is uncertain. U. S. Military Chaplain William Thomas Cummings may have said it in a field sermon during the Battle of Bataan in 1942.

The above gleaned from Wikipedia.



So there you have it. Having lived a long time I knew it came from WWII. I also have the intellect to know it wasn't to be taken literally. I think the "search for truth" is over.

Beyond that, this thread is in danger of becoming a discussion of competing religious beliefs which can be as acrimonious as the forbidden political discussions, and probably should be closed.

Before that, I will hasten to add that I am an active, believing Christian and prior to my disability was very active in a Southern Baptist Church.

I am more than willing to discuss religion, but I doubt that it will long be tolerated on TOTV.

God Bless you all.

:read:

[Villages PL]

Ohhhh Cisco!

Ohhhh Pancho!

[graciegirl]

How well you illustrate exactly and more to the point than I...
why in all rational thought would one adopt a position against English speaking squirrels?
or equally illogical, against a God who loves you and gave the life of a human-born son out of love?
there is nothing rational about either...perhaps a squirrel talks, or perhaps trillions of believers are wrong.



I cannot help but love you, Kitty.


And I am generally a firm advocate of the scientific method.


I love being old-er and not held to anything.

[eweissenbach]

I cannot help but love you, Kitty.


And I am generally a firm advocate of the scientific method.


I love being old-er and not held to anything.

I hold you to be an open-minded, gifted writer and decorator, great mother and wife, and a dear (though not often seen) friend.

[graciegirl]

I hold you to be an open-minded, gifted writer and decorator, great mother and wife, and a dear (though not often seen) friend.



I love you Ed Weissenbach and I think of you and your dear family so often.


I wish you all a sweet and blessed Christmas and a peaceful New Year.

[eweissenbach]

Ohhhh Pancho!

Thank (insert name of diety or other word used to describe relief here), someone got the obscure reference. Illness and fatigue have caused me not to make a serious comment on this thread - in other words I am sick and tired of it. (where is that sarcastic icon Joe is advocating for?)

[eweissenbach]

I love you Ed Weissenbach and I think of you and your dear family so often.


I wish you all a sweet and blessed Christmas and a peaceful New Year.

Back atcha beautiful lady!

[Golfingnut]

Could this link explain the confusion.

Theists Vs. Atheists: Smarter? Healthier? Kinder? : Discovery News (http://news.discovery.com/human/life/theists-atheists-religion-130815.htm)

I am going to do some research into atheism. Christians constantly insult my opinions so maybe I will be accepted there.

Any info would be appreciated via PM.

[graciegirl]

Could this link explain the confusion.

Theists Vs. Atheists: Smarter? Healthier? Kinder? : Discovery News (http://news.discovery.com/human/life/theists-atheists-religion-130815.htm)

I am going to do some research into atheism. Christians constantly insult my opinions so maybe I will be accepted there.



I know for a FACT that Christians love you.


I do.

[eweissenbach]

Lou, that link took me to a picture of Santa Clause, who in or out of a foxhole I believe in.

[Villages PL]

So?


I say what I said yesterday. I am an OLD teacher and I can spot a boy spoiling for a fight from thirty paces.


Do you feel better?


Does anyone?

Well, yes and no. In one way I feel better knowing that we still have some freedom of speech, at least up to this point. A fight takes two or more people who feel like fighting. But should we even call it fighting? Maybe it's arguing or discussing. And no one is compelled to stay on this thread if they don't like what it's about.

[Golfingnut]

Just got a video sent from my request for understanding. Very informative.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mbef07aQtB8&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dmbef07aQtB8

[Carl in Tampa]

Then why do you constantly single me out with your witty sharp tongue.

I have poured my heart out with sincerity in this thread and yet you call me as a boy looking for a fight. I swear on the grave of my mother that is not true and your saying it is very hurtful. I expect that kind of comment from those certain posters, but not from you. Another claims I am just stirring the pot.

Well, I don't want to seem to be piling on, but I'm surprised to learn that you thought the generalization that there are no atheists in foxholes was intended to be taken literally. It was simply meant to express that many who denied there was a God were observed to pray earnestly for deliverance when under fire in combat.

You have to remember this about generalizations:

"No generalization is wholly true, not even this one."

:beer3:

[billethkid]

Seems as though a statement not in agreement or different than posted/stated is clearly mis-interpreted as insults....which is an entitled opinion that helps validate a position being taken....however not what was intended by participants responding and very often a totally incorrect interpretation.

btk

[Carl in Tampa]

Sorry, but I am not sure I understand what you mean. I never though for a moment what the saying meant other than what it says. There are no atheists in a foxhole. I often do not catch the underling meaning of things, and take them at face value. Are you saying that the statement was meant as a joke or like a way to kid someone?


It was not meant as a joke. Look at the explanation that was posted earlier that the phrase was believed to have been used by an Army Chaplain during a field sermon during the Battle of Bataan. If you are not familiar with that devastating battle during WWII, you might want to do a browser search and read up on it.

The phrase is most often used to express the belief of the speaker that all people seek a divine power when they are facing an extreme threat.

You might want to read the wikipedia entry about the phrase at There are no atheists in foxholes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_are_no_atheists_in_foxholes)

The phrase is not to be taken literally.

.

[billethkid]

Could you write this again in lay men's terms. As I live and breath, I say to you, when written this way, I for one cannot understand the meaning.

1. Is that your intention? NO!
2. Are you a professional writer just having fun with folks like me? NO!

No double meanings. No hidden message. No oblique or distorted message. Only what the words state.....noyhing more.

I am switching to the popcorn...:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:

[BarryRX]

How well you illustrate exactly and more to the point than I...
why in all rational thought would one adopt a position against English speaking squirrels?
or equally illogical, against a God who loves you and gave the life of a human-born son out of love?
there is nothing rational about either...perhaps a squirrel talks, or perhaps trillions of believers are wrong.

You have reversed the premise again. One does not adopt a position against English speaking squirrels, rather, one does not adopt a position for them. There is a world of difference in those statements.

[Taltarzac725]

I understand what you're saying Kitty, but if I were to say to you that somewhere on Earth there is a squirrel that speaks perfect english, it would not be your task to prove my statement wrong, it would be my task to prove my statement right. It is not illogical to believe that a talking squirrel doesn't exist without proof of its existence. But it is illogical to believe that a talking squirrel does exist without proof. So even though it appears that both statements are just two sides of the same coin, they are not.

Not sure if that analogy is apt. Maybe, better would be ask where the non-speaking squirrel came from let alone the proverbial talking one? Darwin and his followers do not really do it justice as the various species have had to come from somewhere whether or not you believe that a God tinkers with how the species come together.

[CFrance]

I am glad you didn't start a thread on Santa's complexion bothering folks. I just saw that on The Today show.




Merry Christmas everyone.

Don't give anybody any ideas!!!!!!:grumpy::cryin2:

[Golfingnut]

Found a good rule to follow when posting. Found this on experience project . Com. I don't think all will accept being corrected even if the are wrong, bul, I will try.

From experienceproject.com


We are all intitled to our opinion and others opinions can be offensive and just plain rude. Some people do this intentionally to get "a rise" out of people especially if they know it upsets you. Don't get mad at all of them but pick your battles. Have your opinion ready and occasionally engage some one on the subject so you don't always feel like people have no idea what they're talking about. Don't argue but genuinely listen to what they're saying and correct them and inlighten them to what just may be the truth. Some people form an opinion based on misinformation and if you can correct they're misunderstanding of a subject you just might make a positive change in someones life.

[bkcunningham1]

As they say, you can lead a pig to a foxhole to drink but you can't cast your pearls into a sow's ear. Or something like that. ;~)

[kittygilchrist]

The point of my comment is that God's existence has yet to be empirically proved, and appears to be non-existent in the absence of faith. That does not make God non-existent; it means that He cannot be apprehended by intellect alone.

For an atheist to aver confidently that Spirit does not exist because he has only used mind to seek it, is inadequate reason for rejecting the existence of a realm that cannot be comprehended through reasoning.

[Golfingnut]

The point of my comment is that God's existence has yet to be empirically proved, and appears to be non-existent in the absence of faith. That does not make God non-existent; it means that He cannot be apprehended by intellect alone.

For an atheist to aver confidently that Spirit does not exist because he has only used mind to seek it, is inadequate reason for rejecting the existence of a realm that cannot be comprehended through reasoning.

Wow, it made me dizzy, but after reading it three times, I get it and like what I get. Great post.

[Taltarzac725]

Squirrels' Evolutionary Family Tree Reveals Influence of Climate, Geology | Duke Today (http://today.duke.edu/2003/02/squirreltree0302.html)

Interesting article on the evolution of squirrels. How did they get to North America in the first place and then move to Africa? That is, what evolved into a squirrel and before that what evolved into whatever was before the squirrel? You have a finite regression going back then to however life came out of the muck.

Maybe we cannot grasp how complicated a plan God has for life on earth given how short our lives really are and how much evidence we are missing in the grand scheme of things?

[donb9006]

Would you define atheist as someone who believes there is no God because they cannot prove it logically to their satisfaction?
If so, then I would ask how one can firmly disbelieve something that cannot be proved or disproved? Why take such an illogical position?
It seems as irrational to me to disbelieve as to believe since neither position is subject to empirical proof.

Why believe something until you can be reasonable sure it's real? Do you routinely believe things you have no reason to believe? Why? Belief is a voluntary action. To disbelieve is the natural reaction until a REASON to believe is found.

I find comfort in believing in a higher power, and the power of prayer.

Therefore, I would not find any comfort in being an atheists.

People should follow the dictates of their concious, and seek the truth, in what is right for them, Anything else, is folly. IMHO

Yes...people should follow whatever is best for themselves...it IS folly to try to change people.

The statement "There are no atheists in foxholes" is an aphorism used to argue that in times of extreme stress or fear, such as in war, all people will believe in, or hope for, a higher power.
The origin of the quotation is uncertain. U. S. Military Chaplain William Thomas Cummings may have said it in a field sermon during the Battle of Bataan in 1942.

The above gleaned from Wikipedia.

But atheists are on a mission and what we see here is a "toe in the water" and a very coy way of moving on to more "troubling thoughts" that they have with the believers.
Get prayer out of the schools, bibles out of motels, no crosses anywhere, and minimize any faith.

Sometimes. I'm more agnostic. I have NO idea if there is or isn't a "higher power". But I agree that having to live with some of the religious dogma gets frustrating.

How well you illustrate exactly and more to the point than I...
why in all rational thought would one adopt a position against English speaking squirrels?
or equally illogical, against a God who loves you and gave the life of a human-born son out of love?
there is nothing rational about either...perhaps a squirrel talks, or perhaps trillions of believers are wrong.

The only "rational" approach UNTIL you have reason to believe is non-belief. To believe without anything to make you believe is the irrational. It IS irrational to BELIEVE in a talking squirrel. It's not irrational to NOT believe in a talking squirrel because none has ever been found in all the quadrillion squirrels that have existed.

Well, yes and no. In one way I feel better knowing that we still have some freedom of speech, at least up to this point. A fight takes two or more people who feel like fighting. But should we even call it fighting? Maybe it's arguing or discussing. And no one is compelled to stay on this thread if they don't like what it's about.

Freedom of speech? You believe that? It's an argument to the one whom is losing. It's a discussion to the one winning.

I've been saying it for years...if what they're talking about unnerves you...don't read it!

You have reversed the premise again. One does not adopt a position against English speaking squirrels, rather, one does not adopt a position for them. There is a world of difference in those statements.

There sire is...why don't people see that?

Not sure if that analogy is apt. Maybe, better would be ask where the non-speaking squirrel came from let alone the proverbial talking one? Darwin and his followers do not really do it justice as the various species have had to come from somewhere whether or not you believe that a God tinkers with how the species come together.

Again, I have NO idea how it all happened...but the explanation offered by religions...all/any of them, just doesn't cut it for me.

Found a good rule to follow when posting. Found this on experience project . Com. I don't think all will accept being corrected even if the are wrong, bul, I will try.

From experienceproject.com


We are all intitled to our opinion and others opinions can be offensive and just plain rude. Some people do this intentionally to get "a rise" out of people especially if they know it upsets you. Don't get mad at all of them but pick your battles. Have your opinion ready and occasionally engage some one on the subject so you don't always feel like people have no idea what they're talking about. Don't argue but genuinely listen to what they're saying and correct them and inlighten them to what just may be the truth. Some people form an opinion based on misinformation and if you can correct they're misunderstanding of a subject you just might make a positive change in someones life.

That's what I TRY to do...just give people another view, whether I agree or not, something opposite to think about.

The point of my comment is that God's existence has yet to be empirically proved, and appears to be non-existent in the absence of faith. That does not make God non-existent; it means that He cannot be apprehended by intellect alone.

For an atheist to aver confidently that Spirit does not exist because he has only used mind to seek it, is inadequate reason for rejecting the existence of a realm that cannot be comprehended through reasoning.

It make it HIGHLY improbable, about as probable as the talking squirrel. Do you think there IS a talking squirrel?

[DougB]

Some of the posts on here are squirrely.

[bkcunningham1]

Do you think there is a talking squirrel? Of Moose and Men: The Rocky & Bullwinkle Story - YouTube Yes, donb9006. There is a talking squirrel. donb9006, your little friends are wrong. They have been affected by the skepticism of a skeptical age. They do not believe except they see. They think that nothing can be which is not comprehensible by their little minds. All minds, donb9006, whether they be men's or children's, are little. In this great universe of ours man is a mere insect, an ant, in his intellect, as compared with the boundless world about him, as measured by the intelligence capable of grasping the whole of truth and knowledge.

Yes, donb9006, there is a talking squirrel. He exists as certainly as love and generosity and devotion exist, and you know that they abound and give to your life its highest beauty and joy. Alas! how dreary would be the world if there were no talking squirrels. It would be as dreary as if there were no donb9006's. There would be no childlike faith then, no poetry, no romance to make tolerable this existence. We should have no enjoyment, except in sense and sight. The eternal light with which childhood fills the world would be extinguished.

Not believe in talking squirrels! You might as well not believe in fairies! You might get your papa to hire men to watch in all the chimneys on national talking squirrel day to catch the talking squirrel, but even if they did not see a talking squirrel coming down, what would that prove? Nobody sees a talking squirrel, but that is no sign that there is no talking squirrel. The most real things in the world are those that neither children nor men can see. Did you ever see fairies dancing on the lawn? Of course not, but that's no proof that they are not there. Nobody can conceive or imagine all the wonders there are unseen and unseeable in the world.

You may tear apart the baby's rattle and see what makes the noise inside, but there is a veil covering the unseen world which not the strongest man, nor even the united strength of all the strongest men that ever lived, could tear apart. Only faith, fancy, poetry, love, romance, can push aside that curtain and view and picture the supernal beauty and glory beyond. Is it all real? Ah, donb9006, in all this world there is nothing else real and abiding.

No talking squirrels! Thank God! Rocky lives, and he lives forever. A thousand years from now, donb9006, nay, ten times ten thousand years from now, he will continue to make glad the heart of childhood.

[kittygilchrist]

I'm not quoting that all over again, Don! Your arguments are all correct, if all one knows is how to think. However, if one only believes in the existence of what one already knows and can read about, that would be a small world, would it not?

Maybe some people are engaged in this discussion because the idea of God is intriguing and unfathomable. There was a moment in life, 38 years ago, on Dec. 15, 1974, in which I suspended the notion of figuring out with my mind whether there was a God, and assumed for the moment, against a mental tide of logic, that he might be available to me as "Jesus". I was instantly connected, by what I have come to know was "faith".. with the divine and could never again "not know" if there was a God.

I know how to be rational and gratefully, I also know how to believe in what cannot be seen. If anyone would like to know if there is a God, it might help to stop asking yourself whether there is a God (because you do not really know) and to ask if he is truly there, that he reveal himself to you.
Merry Christmas,
Kitty

[Golfingnut]

I gotta say don makes more sense than many others. Between atheist logic and Christian sarcasm I feel more love coming from the atheist folks. Maybe G is doing me a favor by pointing me in the direction of looking into dropping God for a kinder group of people.

[billethkid]

the mind of a child before contaminated by adult fears, prejudices, likes, dislikes, etc is the best resource for reality.....in my opinion.

Because of their "innocense" they enjoy life much more easily.....they have no pre-conceived prejudices.......there is no such thing as motive or intent.....they believe in Santa Claus.

It is the journey to where we elders are today that change the outlook....not alway for the better.....and thank GOD not all the same (this is the one that seems to bother many the most, for whatever the reason).

btk

[DougB]

I gotta say don makes more sense than many others. Between atheist logic and Christian sarcasm I feel more love coming from the atheist folks. Maybe G is doing me a favor by pointing me in the direction of looking into dropping God for a kinder group of people.

Is There a God? Written by an atheist.

Does God Exist - Six Reasons to Believe that God is Really There - Is There a God (http://www.everystudent.com/features/isthere.html)

[kittygilchrist]

God is cool to hide himself from intellectual finding out. The secret, most significant fact of the universe, hidden from the wise of the world and revealed to the "foolish" who believe...

[DouglasMo]

I gotta say don makes more sense than many others. Between atheist logic and Christian sarcasm I feel more love coming from the atheist folks. Maybe G is doing me a favor by pointing me in the direction of looking into dropping God for a kinder group of people.

I'm beginning to think religious comments or references should not be allowed (including atheist views) on forums as all have strong beliefs and if you're looking for direction, you won't find it here IMHO.

And I disagree -- I think Christians have logic. How do you know the Christians are sarcastic? Did they identify themselves?

My last point--and I'm not reading this thread again-- Out of the Mouth of Babes: A Little girl was busy drawing during art class. Her teacher asked what she was drawing. "God" she answered. Teacher said "no one knows what God looks like". the little girl never looked up and said "They will when I'm finished".