Judge finds NSA privacy invasion unconstitutional

[kittygilchrist]

I wonder what will happen to Snowden now?

[Cisco Kid]

This ruling will merely be ignored.

[redwitch]

This ruling will merely be ignored.

Wish I didn't agree with you but I think you are so right.

[Bucco]

I wonder what will happen to Snowden now?

Not sure if your intent is to discuss Snowden or the NSA program. I assume from your phrase "privacy invasion" that you oppose the program.

I support the program under the assumptions we have in place the proper oversight.

The world has changed....I said in the thread on China landing on the moon, we are allowing eroding in this country, and in this case in the name of privacy. The judge said in his ruling, and I am paraphrasing, that he saw no evidence of a plot foiled. I see no evidence of someone innocent being harmed, and in an age that is based on electronic everything, I....just me..am not prepared to allow my country to allow anyone to keep pecking at our structure until we are not even viable.

I recall the freedoms we gave up during WW2 to insure the maintenance of our country, and have a real problem understanding anyone who does not put their country first.

I think this is a necessary program....only change would be a bit more transparent concerning our oversight.

[kittygilchrist]

My intent was to find out what people think about another fine mess in the USA...
Here's what the judge said:
“I cannot imagine a more ‘indiscriminate’ and ‘arbitrary invasion’ than this systematic and high tech collection and retention of personal data on virtually every single citizen for purposes of querying and analyzing it without prior judicial approval,” said Leon, a judge on the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia. “Surely, such a program infringes on ‘that degree of privacy’ that the founders enshrined in the Fourth Amendment.” (Washington post)

[Taltarzac725]

My intent was to find out what people think about another fine mess in the USA...
Here's what the judge said:
“I cannot imagine a more ‘indiscriminate’ and ‘arbitrary invasion’ than this systematic and high tech collection and retention of personal data on virtually every single citizen for purposes of querying and analyzing it without prior judicial approval,” said Leon, a judge on the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia. “Surely, such a program infringes on ‘that degree of privacy’ that the founders enshrined in the Fourth Amendment.” (Washington post)

It seems like a necessary invasion of privacy to prevent more attacks like 9/11 and the like. The Founding Fathers never envisioned planes flying into skyscrapers, the Internet, phone services, men in space, and many many other things.

It should be ignored IMHO.

[ilovetv]

I think this statement made on t.v. last night truly puts this into perspective:

“I would like to see the resolution not happen in a court. … but leave it to the Congress, meaning the democratic process, to decide to impose curbs on it. If a court says it is okay that doesn’t mean it has to be. Let the people decide in Congress assembly. That’s what Madison intended.”

--Charles Krauthammer

[coralway]

Actually, Judge Leon said that Section 215 of the USA Patriot Act, is likely unconstitutional.

[donb9006]

I wonder what will happen to Snowden now?

He should be welcomed home as a hero...

This ruling will merely be ignored.

Yes, I agree, they'll make a lot of speeches about how they'll "change this or that" which will amount to "sound and fury signifying nothing". Nothing of significance will change...in fact, the changes will probably be MORE invasive than before.

Not sure if your intent is to discuss Snowden or the NSA program. I assume from your phrase "privacy invasion" that you oppose the program.

I support the program under the assumptions we have in place the proper oversight.

The world has changed....I said in the thread on China landing on the moon, we are allowing eroding in this country, and in this case in the name of privacy. The judge said in his ruling, and I am paraphrasing, that he saw no evidence of a plot foiled. I see no evidence of someone innocent being harmed, and in an age that is based on electronic everything, I....just me..am not prepared to allow my country to allow anyone to keep pecking at our structure until we are not even viable.

I recall the freedoms we gave up during WW2 to insure the maintenance of our country, and have a real problem understanding anyone who does not put their country first.

I think this is a necessary program....only change would be a bit more transparent concerning our oversight.

Proper oversight? By whom?

How would you like "some guy" watching, listening to everything you do? That's basically what's happening now. Everywhere we go, we're recorded, all conversations and emails and even these posts, are recorded.

We started giving up freedoms a long long time ago. The Civil War took a bunch, WWI and II more, every time "something" happens, we lose more. There's always going to be "something" happening. You can't achieve complete security...never...

Put the "country" first? Really? I don't see that happening by our "leaders", they put their sponsors first...always. What IS "our country" anyway? It's not the government. Put the people first? Spying on their every communication isn't putting them first.

My intent was to find out what people think about another fine mess in the USA...
Here's what the judge said:
“I cannot imagine a more ‘indiscriminate’ and ‘arbitrary invasion’ than this systematic and high tech collection and retention of personal data on virtually every single citizen for purposes of querying and analyzing it without prior judicial approval,” said Leon, a judge on the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia. “Surely, such a program infringes on ‘that degree of privacy’ that the founders enshrined in the Fourth Amendment.” (Washington post)

The USA has become a stinking heap of messes...brought to us by "our leaders". They have NO right to spy and listen to us. They collect EVERYTHING.

It seems like a necessary invasion of privacy to prevent more attacks like 9/11 and the like. The Founding Fathers never envisioned planes flying into skyscrapers, the Internet, phone services, men in space, and many many other things.

It should be ignored IMHO.

Oh yes...9-11, the catch all for anything they want to do.

They keep you in fear, so they can get your permission to "protect" you.

Is "freedom", "privacy" an archaic notion? Something we can't have any more? That's the impression I get from your post.

This entire program is so wrong on so many levels and we wouldn't know anything about it if Snowden didn't talk about it.

[Bogie Shooter]

I think this statement made on t.v. last night truly puts this into perspective:

“I would like to see the resolution not happen in a court. … but leave it to the Congress, meaning the democratic process, to decide to impose curbs on it. If a court says it is okay that doesn’t mean it has to be. Let the people decide in Congress assembly. That’s what Madison intended.”

--Charles Krauthammer


And Charlie is never wrong.

[Bogie Shooter]

Put Snoden in Jail!

[Madelaine Amee]

Not sure if your intent is to discuss Snowden or the NSA program. I assume from your phrase "privacy invasion" that you oppose the program.

I support the program under the assumptions we have in place the proper oversight.

The world has changed....I said in the thread on China landing on the moon, we are allowing eroding in this country, and in this case in the name of privacy. The judge said in his ruling, and I am paraphrasing, that he saw no evidence of a plot foiled. I see no evidence of someone innocent being harmed, and in an age that is based on electronic everything, I....just me..am not prepared to allow my country to allow anyone to keep pecking at our structure until we are not even viable.

I recall the freedoms we gave up during WW2 to insure the maintenance of our country, and have a real problem understanding anyone who does not put their country first.

I think this is a necessary program....only change would be a bit more transparent concerning our oversight.

:BigApplause: Snowden is a traitor, let Russia have him. If you have nothing to fear why would you be concerned about the NSA listening in on your conversations. Mine are kind of boring and I think they would tune out real quick!

[Bucco]

There are a few problems with both the Judge's decision and some posts on here.

First on section 215.....the administration of BOTH parties have referred to this as a major intelligence program thus it seems to me that it is not possible to have anyone strike down the program anytime soon.

Secondly, the general basis for all of this goes to Smith vs Maryland in 1979 which reads...

"we doubt that people in general entertain any actual expectation of privacy in the numbers they dial. All telephone users realize that they must “convey” phone numbers to the telephone company, since it is through telephone company switching equipment that their calls are completed. All subscribers realize, moreover, that the phone company has facilities for making permanent records of the numbers they dial, for they see a list of their long-distance (toll) calls on their monthly bills."

This before the electronic age...that decision said “We therefore conclude that petitioner in all probability entertained no actual expectation of privacy in the phone numbers he dialed, and that, even if he did, his expectation was not ‘legitimate.’ The installation and use of a pen register, consequently, was not a ‘search,’ and no warrant was required,” reads the holding."

That is all the legalese....point is that we need such an act in today's age. The fact that we have this internet to complain about it does not much change the basic facts involved.

This is not a political issue...it was, but not anymore. I believe in my heart that our enemies...and that is anyone who is jealous or covets our power and money will do whatever is necessary to bring the country down. They are aware that military is not going to do it, and thus are using this and we sit here and complain about how bad we have it while they eat away at us.

I will never forget Nikita Khrushchev saying the following.......""we do not have to destroy America with Missiles; America will destroy itself from within."

He was correct and we continue on that path. We are so interested in OURSELVES we have forgot our country. We have such short memories in this country. We are like our children now...we need a trophy just for showing up.

I do wish us better oversight reporting and frankly I have no idea on how to define that. Those with that charged responsibility need to work on that part of it. By subject matter, they speak in very vague generalities but I am satisfied that the right is being done.

[Villages PL]

I'm not an expert on this subject, by any means, just a casual observer. But my information is that no one is listening to our personal telephone conversations. They are getting information on telephone records from the telephone companies, such as, "who's calling who". So, for example, if your records show that you called a fertilizer company about buying fertilizer and you also called someone in Pakistan, that would be suspicious. That might be someone who's planning on building a bomb. That's the type of thing they are looking for and I don't see anything wrong with it.

[donb9006]

This is how countries are destroyed. They tighten and tighten, they take this away, and then that. They spy on their own citizens more and more. And then people begin to disappear. Until ALL the dissidents are gone. And then it's too late. You've lost everything.

Think Germany. MOST of the people loved Hitler and what he was doing...for safety, for security, for the country. People said the same things that were said here today...we NEED these things! What do you have to hide? We MUST give up our personal sovereignty for the good of all. It's the same script, yet we've forgotten...

[ilovetv]

I think the Krauthammer quote above is right.....that we the people, thru our elected representatives in Congress, should decide how much or how little surveillance should be done or how much we can tolerate and still have some shred of privacy.

[rubicon]

Henry Stimson Secretary of State wrote "Gentlemen don't read other gentlemen's mail as to the logic for closing down the Cipher Bureau in 1929. Thus the USA was hampered as the Axis powers built their war machines. Foreign government feign indignation at spying and are hypocrites because they are also spying. Further even friends need to watch for one another. The 9/11/2001 event was organized in Hamburg Germany.

People who believe that the NSA is bad and Snowden good are at the least naive' Snowden ought to be tried as a traitor

Section 215 of the Patriot Act is the authority to collect metadata. Inquires require FISC approval. In 2012 only 300 such inquires were requested . Data does need to be collected in housed in one area so that when the need arises it can more quickly be recovered. to suggest that such data remain with the telecoms is to invite unnecessary and a very dangerous delay
in our ability to respond.

This is not a topic for emotional /poltical responses but for logical solutions to protect the people and the interests of this country. This is a grown up game and we need grown ups in the room.

[Villages PL]

This is how countries are destroyed. They tighten and tighten, they take this away, and then that. They spy on their own citizens more and more. And then people begin to disappear. Until ALL the dissidents are gone. And then it's too late. You've lost everything.

Think Germany. MOST of the people loved Hitler and what he was doing...for safety, for security, for the country. People said the same things that were said here today...we NEED these things! What do you have to hide? We MUST give up our personal sovereignty for the good of all. It's the same script, yet we've forgotten...

We are doing defensive things to keep from being attacked by terrorists, whereas Germany was building up a huge military, way beyond what they would need for their own defense.

You might notice that the U.S. has a big military too, but we are not trying to take over any foreign countries. I don't think the comparison with Germany is very realistic.

[Bucco]

This is how countries are destroyed. They tighten and tighten, they take this away, and then that. They spy on their own citizens more and more. And then people begin to disappear. Until ALL the dissidents are gone. And then it's too late. You've lost everything.

Think Germany. MOST of the people loved Hitler and what he was doing...for safety, for security, for the country. People said the same things that were said here today...we NEED these things! What do you have to hide? We MUST give up our personal sovereignty for the good of all. It's the same script, yet we've forgotten...

I think you are a very inelligent guy, and obviously anti any government.

I am shocked that you would compare a situation that took place almost 100 years ago when not only were there none of the technology available, but the spying was done by neighbor on neighbor. This is not even in the same ball park as the analogy you are passing off here.

Secondly, I think the constitution allows the federal government is in specific charge of national defense and that is what we are talking about.

I recommend to you a read on the Tokyo gas attacks on the subway, and how close....how very close this RELIGIOUS group was to getting hold of nuclear weapons.. I have read a few on that, and it just frightens me what a small world we now live in and how delicate the balance is between freedom and total destruction. The world is not full of peace dwellers....and those who hate and profess it...those who seek to destroy and announce it.....they now have a "shot"

[Golfingnut]

I'm with the hawks on this one. Snoden is a traitor and should face a firing squad. He could have gave his information to several American sources and held some credibility as a whistle blower. You take American classified overseas, you are a traitor.

[Bucco]

I'm with the hawks on this one. Snoden is a traitor and should face a firing squad. He could have gave his information to several American sources and held some credibility as a whistle blower. You take American classified overseas, you are a traitor.

I do not believe in any way shape or form that supporting the NSA program can be classified as "hawkish". I have no idea how you relate that term to supporting this program !!!

[Golfingnut]

I do not believe in any way shape or form that supporting the NSA program can be classified as "hawkish". I have no idea how you relate that term to supporting this program !!!

Your right. I should have used a different word.

[Bucco]

Your right. I should have used a different word.

Making general assumptions about anyone or any program is very dangerous in todays age.....much too complicated of a world. NOTHING is all right...all wrong.

Easy to do, I will agree but it is not only wrong but very unfair. One of my pet peeves is the quoting of, and discussion of things without the proper context, hence my insistance on attaching links to my opinions. You need to read both sides of an issue and both sides of a person to make any judgement and then you are sure to be 50% wrong. My leanings have been judged on here because of just that so I remain a bit sensitive to that :)

[tag460]

Snowden should brought back to the USA to stand trial for espionage, as far as I am concern if he is found guilty, I would hang the S.O.B. I could care less who is monitor's my phone calls, emails or any other type of communication device. I have nothing to hide, if the NSA is able to save one American life from the data they collect, for me that justifies this program.

[Golfingnut]

Making general assumptions about anyone or any program is very dangerous in todays age.....much too complicated of a world. NOTHING is all right...all wrong.

Easy to do, I will agree but it is not only wrong but very unfair. One of my pet peeves is the quoting of, and discussion of things without the proper context, hence my insistance on attaching links to my opinions. You need to read both sides of an issue and both sides of a person to make any judgement and then you are sure to be 50% wrong. My leanings have been judged on here because of just that so I remain a bit sensitive to that :)

Let me assume you are correct, but you are far to sensitive to your own feeling yet critical of others. Perhaps you could find a blog for professionals. TOTV is made up of residents from all over the world. I may be wrong, but I would guess most of us are here with less compassion than you for issues like this one. Everyone has an opinion, but ya know what they say about that. Most folks are interested in a yea or nea and not so much about the history of how they make up their mind. The Villages has folks from every background in life and with levels of education from a few years high school all the way to doctorate degrees. You are obviously more versed in advanced military and spy strategy than I, so please allow for that.

[donb9006]

I think you are a very inelligent guy, and obviously anti any government.

I am shocked that you would compare a situation that took place almost 100 years ago when not only were there none of the technology available, but the spying was done by neighbor on neighbor. This is not even in the same ball park as the analogy you are passing off here.

Secondly, I think the constitution allows the federal government is in specific charge of national defense and that is what we are talking about.

I recommend to you a read on the Tokyo gas attacks on the subway, and how close....how very close this RELIGIOUS group was to getting hold of nuclear weapons.. I have read a few on that, and it just frightens me what a small world we now live in and how delicate the balance is between freedom and total destruction. The world is not full of peace dwellers....and those who hate and profess it...those who seek to destroy and announce it.....they now have a "shot"

I'm not anti ANY government. We need order and rules. But not what we're getting now. It's literally Orwellian what's going on. Read 1984.

You CAN'T make anything or anyone PERFECTLY safe. You can't make everyone or everywhere perfectly safe. You can't stop EVERY idiot who wants to do harm. And to try is too much of an intrusion on everyone else.

The comparison is valid. The Nazis, the Russians, Chinese...the spying was done on their own people...we're doing the same now...government is spying on its own people. It's a slow insidious process...like the frog in water that slowly gets hotter until it dies...never thinking it needed to jump out. We're being manipulated...by professional manipulators.

[Bucco]

Let me assume you are correct, but you are far to sensitive to your own feeling yet critical of others. Perhaps you could find a blog for professionals. TOTV is made up of residents from all over the world. I may be wrong, but I would guess most of us are here with less compassion than you for issues like this one. Everyone has an opinion, but ya know what they say about that. Most folks are interested in a yea or nea and not so much about the history of how they make up their mind. The Villages has folks from every background in life and with levels of education from a few years high school all the way to doctorate degrees. You are obviously more versed in advanced military and spy strategy than I, so please allow for that.

First of all, you (and I) are way off the subject of the NSA program and thus my response will be terse so others can stay on the subject.

I really do not understand your post at all. Am I passionate about my country...YES..I make no apologies about that.

Do I believe that people do not speak their own minds...YES. They repeat what someone tells them, and never question or do their own research. I am critical NOT OF a differing opinion...a differing opinion will drive me to research more. I AM CRITICAL when their opinion is a repeat of what they were told to believe, be it a party leader, a talking head on TV, etc.

WHY is that a big deal to me....unlike others, I think we are being destroyed by our own laziness, and dis interest in what happens in my and our country. Even our leaders pass laws without even knowing what is in them and that to me is disgraceful.

Sorry for mouthing off......I am never critical of another's opinion, but an opinion requires much more than listening to one side only

[gomoho]

Well when the boys on the hill can show me what concrete things they have accomplished as a result of this snooping I might be more inclined to say it serves a purpose. I have nothing to hide, but I resent the fact they are wasting all this time and money with no results once again. But guess we are use that now and just roll over and accept it. Can you imagine how prosperous this country would be without all the waste?!?

[Golfingnut]

I'm not anti ANY government. We need order and rules. But not what we're getting now. It's literally Orwellian what's going on. Read 1984.

You CAN'T make anything or anyone PERFECTLY safe. You can't make everyone or everywhere perfectly safe. You can't stop EVERY idiot who wants to do harm. And to try is too much of an intrusion on everyone else.

The comparison is valid. The Nazis, the Russians, Chinese...the spying was done on their own people...we're doing the same now...government is spying on its own people. It's a slow insidious process...like the frog in water that slowly gets hotter until it dies...never thinking it needed to jump out. We're being manipulated...by professional manipulators.

Dang Don. I am on the other side of the fence on this one, but I cannot find any fault in your post. Well presented and I will read it until I can find a problem with your logic or change my position on this.

[Bucco]

I'm not anti ANY government. We need order and rules. But not what we're getting now. It's literally Orwellian what's going on. Read 1984.

You CAN'T make anything or anyone PERFECTLY safe. You can't make everyone or everywhere perfectly safe. You can't stop EVERY idiot who wants to do harm. And to try is too much of an intrusion on everyone else.

The comparison is valid. The Nazis, the Russians, Chinese...the spying was done on their own people...we're doing the same now...government is spying on its own people. It's a slow insidious process...like the frog in water that slowly gets hotter until it dies...never thinking it needed to jump out. We're being manipulated...by professional manipulators.

I read 1984, probably in 1964 :)

Of course nothing is perfectly safe, thus we have laws to protect. We have law ENFORCEMENT because everyone will not follow the law.

I would be curious as to, in your opinion, is being intruded on exactly ? In what way are you being intruded upon ? If there was even an inkling that what you hint at....people simply listening to you or I or any innocent American citizen for no apparent reason...SOMETHING NEVER DONE OR CLAIMED TO HAVE BEEN DONE, I will join you with a placard. The requirements are clearly spelled out and, to my knowledge, there has never been a claim to the contrary

As I recall my history, the spying in those other lands you mention was one citizen on another citizen fostered publicly by the government. And nothing else, and would ask you to give examples otherwise.

[Bucco]

Well when the boys on the hill can show me what concrete things they have accomplished as a result of this snooping I might be more inclined to say it serves a purpose. I have nothing to hide, but I resent the fact they are wasting all this time and money with no results once again. But guess we are use that now and just roll over and accept it. Can you imagine how prosperous this country would be without all the waste?!?

Since this budget is classified, it is difficult to discuss the specifics, but i sure wish folks would rise up like this on the many many public boondoggles....the money spent, in many cases on unknown things until read. Why we accept THAT KIND of spending and critique our government for doing what the constitution charges them to do...protect the nation, but accept with little complaint the spending on things that, at least I, find completely out of their pay grade.

[Golfingnut]

First of all, you (and I) are way off the subject of the NSA program and thus my response will be terse so others can stay on the subject.

I really do not understand your post at all. Am I passionate about my country...YES..I make no apologies about that.

Do I believe that people do not speak their own minds...YES. They repeat what someone tells them, and never question or do their own research. I am critical NOT OF a differing opinion...a differing opinion will drive me to research more. I AM CRITICAL when their opinion is a repeat of what they were told to believe, be it a party leader, a talking head on TV, etc.

WHY is that a big deal to me....unlike others, I think we are being destroyed by our own laziness, and dis interest in what happens in my and our country. Even our leaders pass laws without even knowing what is in them and that to me is disgraceful.

Sorry for mouthing off......I am never critical of another's opinion, but an opinion requires much more than listening to one side only

Sorry you feel that way. I feel we have a better country than any where else. I am retired military and perhaps that is my advantage. Anyway, know that America is the best nation in the world and healthy. Calm down and let those in charge run the day to day.

[jebartle]

are those with intentions of doing our country harm...I repeat, IMHO

[donb9006]

I read 1984, probably in 1964 :)

Of course nothing is perfectly safe, thus we have laws to protect. We have law ENFORCEMENT because everyone will not follow the law.

I would be curious as to, in your opinion, is being intruded on exactly ? In what way are you being intruded upon ? If there was even an inkling that what you hint at....people simply listening to you or I or any innocent American citizen for no apparent reason...SOMETHING NEVER DONE OR CLAIMED TO HAVE BEEN DONE, I will join you with a placard. The requirements are clearly spelled out and, to my knowledge, there has never been a claim to the contrary

As I recall my history, the spying in those other lands you mention was one citizen on another citizen fostered publicly by the government. And nothing else, and would ask you to give examples otherwise.

It's time to reread it...you'll see the parallels.

Think about what you wrote...law enforcement...not crime prevention. The police come AFTER a crime has already occurred. Not much help to the victim unless it's a "white collar" crime. Violent crime...police, law enforcement...has no effect. See the crime statistics in any large urban center.

What is intruded upon? My freedom, my privacy. The average person commits three felonies a day because laws are so open ended and non specific. Police CAN arrest anyone for anything and they do. Watch youtube videos of police abuse. There are now more rules and regulations than ever before. You're stopped and searched randomly...at "drug checkpoints". I have NO electronic privacy, everything is recorded. Is there REALLY a difference between electronic communication and letters? There shouldn't be...they're both private correspondence. The difference is electronic can be "read" without the recipient knowing it. And they do. Not by people, machines parse everything.

I'm ex-military too and I know for a FACT that much of the "official history" that will be passed down for children to learn...is false, a lie, made up propaganda to make the citizens feel good. I know it because I was there. And what's in the history books...just ain't true. There are many people who could be a Snowden but know what would happen to them if they said something. They'd be hunted as he is.

We only "know" what they choose to say/tell us. Our government should be open, not opaque. Our government has more secrets from it's own people than it has against it's enemies! And why do we have enemies? Not the reason you're told. They're not jealous of our freedom...that's ridiculous. They hate us because we move in and take away THEIR freedom to live the way THEY want to live.

Why would you defend your government lying to you? And decry the man who told you they do?

You never heard the new phrase..."see something, say something"? That's encouraging citizens to "watch" each other for something "unusual".

"Terrorism" is just the latest in a long line of boogymen...not to be confused with our own bogyman...to be afraid of so they can take control.

Jane Fonda was right about Vietnam. Only now are people beginning to realize it.

[Golfingnut]

It's time to reread it...you'll see the parallels.

Think about what you wrote...law enforcement...not crime prevention. The police come AFTER a crime has already occurred. Not much help to the victim unless it's a "white collar" crime. Violent crime...police, law enforcement...has no effect. See the crime statistics in any large urban center.

What is intruded upon? My freedom, my privacy. The average person commits three felonies a day because laws are so open ended and non specific. Police CAN arrest anyone for anything and they do. Watch youtube videos of police abuse. There are now more rules and regulations than ever before. You're stopped and searched randomly...at "drug checkpoints". I have NO electronic privacy, everything is recorded. Is there REALLY a difference between electronic communication and letters? There shouldn't be...they're both private correspondence. The difference is electronic can be "read" without the recipient knowing it. And they do. Not by people, machines parse everything.

I'm ex-military too and I know for a FACT that much of the "official history" that will be passed down for children to learn...is false, a lie, made up propaganda to make the citizens feel good. I know it because I was there. And what's in the history books...just ain't true. There are many people who could be a Snowden but know what would happen to them if they said something. They'd be hunted as he is.

We only "know" what they choose to say/tell us. Our government should be open, not opaque. Our government has more secrets from it's own people than it has against it's enemies! And why do we have enemies? Not the reason you're told. They're not jealous of our freedom...that's ridiculous. They hate us because we move in and take away THEIR freedom to live the way THEY want to live.

Why would you defend your government lying to you? And decry the man who told you they do?

You never heard the new phrase..."see something, say something"? That's encouraging citizens to "watch" each other for something "unusual".

"Terrorism" is just the latest in a long line of boogymen...not to be confused with our own bogyman...to be afraid of so they can take control.

Jane Fonda was right about Vietnam. Only now are people beginning to realize it.

Interesting. You like others, have more knowledge on this subject than I, but what separates you from the PAC is that you deliver your message without becoming historical or insulting to others. Keep up the good work.

Lou

[Bucco]

Interesting. You like others, have more knowledge on this subject than I, but what separates you from the PAC is that you deliver your message without becoming historical or insulting to others. Keep up the good work.

Lou

On the assumption, you speak of me...I apologize for being "insulting" to you...not my intent. Not sure about the "historical" label.

I will take my leave, to allow you and others to sort it out, but the last post had NO facts...simply a vague bunch of generalities.

Have a great time..sorry to bother you