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Talk of The Villages Florida (https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/)
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-   -   Transgender woman golfer wins mini-tour event, aims for LPGA (https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/current-events-news-541/transgender-woman-golfer-wins-mini-tour-event-aims-lpga-319857/)

bobdeb 05-20-2021 03:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrangeBlossomBaby (Post 1947742)
It was a lie from the get-go. The actual rule is "live and let live, as long as you live in a way that fits my misguided, myopic, and totally warped sense of reality."

That has been the rule here, it is still the rule here, and unless more people like you, me, Grumpy, and yes even justjim work to change it, it'll continue to be the rule.

There are transgenders living right here in the Villages, who might have read these posts and seen that members of THEIR community are referring to them as "freaks." A doctor, no less. "America's Friendliest Hometown" is a lie.
Oh my heavens. I'm in agreement with OrangeBlossomBaby...

Does this apply universally?

I need to go and lie down...

Byte1 05-20-2021 03:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiverpoolWalrus (Post 1947726)
"Freaks"? GE, aren't you a medical doctor?
Freak: "a thing, person, animal, or event that is extremely unusual or unlikely, and not like any other of its type.."

Did he not use the term appropriately? Probably not very complimentary, but.........

JMintzer 05-20-2021 04:30 PM
When you've gone thru puberty as a male, you've already developed differently than a female.

Bigger, stronger bones and joints, different biomechanics...

That does not change once you've gone thru reassignment surgery. You will forever have that physical advantage.

The golfer being discussed was a competitive male golfer on his college golf team...

His/her (before or after reassignment surgery, lest anyone think I'm using the wrong pronoun) biomechanics will let him/her swing faster, thus hitting the ball farther... Simple kinesiology... You know... Science...

LiverpoolWalrus 05-20-2021 04:31 PM
...

graciegirl 05-20-2021 04:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrangeBlossomBaby (Post 1947742)
It was a lie from the get-go. The actual rule is "live and let live, as long as you live in a way that fits my misguided, myopic, and totally warped sense of reality."

That has been the rule here, it is still the rule here, and unless more people like you, me, Grumpy, and yes even justjim work to change it, it'll continue to be the rule.

There are transgenders living right here in the Villages, who might have read these posts and seen that members of THEIR community are referring to them as "freaks." A doctor, no less. "America's Friendliest Hometown" is a lie.
Whoa. Put your broad brush down. AND Who is misguided, myopic and has a totally warped sense of reality???

People are allowed to say what they think here in The Villages and in this country even if we STRONGLY disagree with it. Or strongly stand with it.

My take is that most people who live in The Villages are old enough and wise enough to accept people and like them or not like them for who they are and not be influenced by their sexual orientation.

Being gay is not a decision. It is something that people are born with, just like Autism and genius and cognitive deficits and artistic ability and eye hand coordination and athletic build and color blindness and being physically attractive or not physically attractive or tall or short, blue or brown eyed, bald or not. Some things make it easier to live in this world and some make it harder. People may have a "gut" reaction to you that takes effort to control. Some try and some do not.

JMintzer 05-20-2021 04:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by graciegirl (Post 1947784)
Whoa. Put your broad brush down. AND Who is misguided, myopic and has a totally warped sense of reality???

People are allowed to say what they think here in The Villages and in this country even if we STRONGLY disagree with it. Or strongly stand with it.

My take is that most people who live in The Villages are old enough and wise enough to accept people and like them or not like them for who they are and not be influenced by their sexual orientation.

Being gay is not a decision. It is something that people are born with, just like Autism and genius and cognitive deficits and artistic ability and eye hand coordination and athletic build and color blindness and being physically attractive or not physically attractive or tall or short, blue or brown eyed, bald or not. Some things make it easier to live in this world and some make it harder. People may have a "gut" reaction to you that takes effort to control. Some try and some do not.
Are you assuming that being transgender means you are automatically gay?

If so, you might want to check on that...

DeanFL 05-20-2021 05:20 PM
.
.
...well, getting back on topic. When I first read this article, and others on this, my mind went to Bruce Jenner, now Caitlyn. What IF he 'made the change' many years ago in HIS prime and decided to compete in women's Track & Field events. What then. If 'she' was successful, perhaps many of those records would be broken by him/her. That's the conundrum.
.
.

graciegirl 05-20-2021 05:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JMintzer (Post 1947788)
Are you assuming that being transgender means you are automatically gay?

If so, you might want to check on that...
No. I am aware that being transgender doesn't automatically or even commonly mean you are gay. I have read that It is more common for transgender people to be attracted to the opposite sex, from what they began as not what they identify with. Not easy to frame in words. Must not be easy to live either.

Stu from NYC 05-20-2021 05:55 PM
Personally I do not believe the good lord above can make a mistake with someones gender.

If someone decides they are the opposite gender that is certainly their business and none of mine.

However given the differences between biologic males and females it is definitely wrong to allow a male who decides he is a female to compete in womens sports.

Topspinmo 05-20-2021 05:56 PM
But, but, pro tennis has always been ?? (put in what ever you desire) , want even playing ground? Then all tournaments should be open. Recreational or pro. No men’s or woman’s sports/tours. No short tees either for genders. No 3 set verses 5 sets in tennis for same $$$. Want to be equal then compete equally? That way gender makes no difference. :faint::shocked::ohdear:. Life is never fair and doubt it even will be? :popcorn:

Topspinmo 05-20-2021 05:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeanFL (Post 1947796)
.
.
...well, getting back on topic. When I first read this article, and others on this, my mind went to Bruce Jenner, now Caitlyn. What IF he 'made the change' many years ago in HIS prime and decided to compete in women's Track & Field events. What then. If 'she' was successful, perhaps many of those records would be broken by him/her. That's the conundrum.
.
.
If all sports was open wouldn’t be problem.

tophcfa 05-20-2021 06:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiverpoolWalrus (Post 1947726)
"Freaks"? GE, aren't you a medical doctor?
Yes he is, so he fully understands the difference between the junk one is born with and what some freaks want to do to their God given bodies.

tophcfa 05-20-2021 06:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiverpoolWalrus (Post 1947728)
My hat's off to you, Grumpy. Whatever happened to the political philosophy that's so prevalent in the Villages - to live and let live, and be free to be yourself without interference?
Not when your freakish actions creates an unfair playing field for non freak women who are trying to compete against other non freak biological women.

JMintzer 05-20-2021 08:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chi-Town (Post 1947584)
Renee Richard's played in the U.S.Open over 40 years ago. There were the same comments then. How is the WTA (Women's Tennis Association) doing today? No comments about tennis not being golf please.
Renee Richards was a mediocre male tennis player before his transition surgery. Well past his prime...

Using Richard's as an example is a red herring.

A very good friend of mine has two sons who were both State Champions in High School. Played college tennis, but never were good enough to turn pro.

My friend has a vacation home in the same Country Club community as the Williams sisters.

The boys (now in their early 30s) practiced with them when came to visit. They've done so since they were in High School.

They would often beat both of them...

What's this all mean? That routinely (but not always), men are stronger and faster than women. It's a combination of biology and physics. You can change the biology, but not the physics...

JMintzer 05-20-2021 08:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tophcfa (Post 1947822)
Not when your freakish actions creates an unfair playing field for non freak women who are trying to compete against other non freak biological women.
I'm sure you mean no disrespect when you use the word "freak/freakish"... [/sacrasm]

LiverpoolWalrus 05-20-2021 08:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tophcfa (Post 1947822)
Not when your freakish actions creates an unfair playing field for non freak women who are trying to compete against other non freak biological women.
I get the controversy and I don't pretend to have an answer to it.

But this is about respect. You and at least two other posters here referred to trangendered people as "freaks." Are we really that perfect that we can judge other people? Several people here invoked the word "God." Didn't Jesus teach us not to judge?

I'm sure this thread is being read by transgenders, their family members, friends and loved ones. To call them "freaks" hurts ALL of those people and says volumes more about the one hurling the insult than it says about those to whom it's directed.

stanley 05-20-2021 09:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiverpoolWalrus (Post 1947845)
Several people here invoked the word "God." Didn't Jesus teach us not to judge?

.
I wasn' t going to take part in this "discussion" but since you brought up God, and Jesus.......

The most commonly cited verse on cross-gender behavior is Deuteronomy 22:5, “A woman must not wear men’s clothing, nor a man wear women’s clothing, for the Lord your God detests anyone who does this.

There is more.

Taltarzac725 05-20-2021 10:08 PM
Transgender people in sports - Wikipedia.

Would have to see a whole lot more science on this.

I have seen body building women who look a lot more like men....

LiverpoolWalrus 05-20-2021 10:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanley (Post 1947853)
I wasn' t going to take part in this "discussion" but since you brought up God, and Jesus.......

The most commonly cited verse on cross-gender behavior is Deuteronomy 22:5, “A woman must not wear men’s clothing, nor a man wear women’s clothing, for the Lord your God detests anyone who does this.

There is more.
If you believe those Old Testament words written by humans are actually the word of God, fine. Does that mean we can ignore Jesus' admonition not to judge?

Topspinmo 05-20-2021 10:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taltarzac725 (Post 1947859)
Transgender people in sports - Wikipedia.

Would have to see a whole lot more science on this.

I have seen body building women who look a lot more like men....
That’s why really don’t make difference, horse race good example. All about the training and commitment.

LiverpoolWalrus 05-20-2021 10:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanley (Post 1947853)
I wasn' t going to take part in this "discussion" but since you brought up God, and Jesus.......

The most commonly cited verse on cross-gender behavior is Deuteronomy 22:5, “A woman must not wear men’s clothing, nor a man wear women’s clothing, for the Lord your God detests anyone who does this.

There is more.
If you're looking for an excuse to be disrespectful, I might suggest you keep looking.

I find the best people out there have no trouble practicing common courtesy. That's what they do as members of a civilized society.

Northwoods 05-20-2021 10:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrumpyOldMan (Post 1947639)
Everyday babies are born with genitals that can not be identified as male or female.

Everyday babies are born with genitals of both sexes.

Everyday babies are born with genitals that do not match their genes.

Everyday children are born with genes that do not define “normal” sexual orientation- ie. they don’t have the standard two genes, X and Y combination,

These babies have to grow up in a world full of cruel hateful people.
I hear what you are saying.
But if the "men identifying as women" are competing because they can't compete in a male-dominated sport. Then that's just wrong.
If the babies you identify have grown up and want to compete in a women's sport? Well... that's a different situation.
But I think you have to show where the "born as a man" athletes don't have the gene or genitals to identify as a certain sex.

WesMan 05-21-2021 04:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeanFL (Post 1947510)
.
.
Well, the landscape of Mens/Womens pro sports has a challenge, perhaps not totally new, but certainly will escalate in the future.

NEWS>>>
So much for fairness: Transgender woman golfer wins mini-tour event, aims for LPGA

Last week, Hailey Davidson, a transgender woman, won her first professional title in Florida, topping LPGA player Perrine Delacour for the win.

The same day, she was sent an email by the USGA saying she’s met the organization’s Gender Policy eligibility criteria and can now compete in its championships and she’s hoping to hear similar news from the LPGA via a reciprocity agreement, according to Golfweek.

In January, Ms. Davidson underwent gender reassignment surgery, and she’s been undergoing hormone treatments since 2015. Since transitioning, Ms. Davidson said she hits shorter and swings slower — yet she still was born a man, and obviously, has a physical advantage over biological women.

The science in these cases is clear. Biological men have more muscle mass, larger hearts and lungs, and therefore greater stamina than biological women. Their bones are bigger, and their testosterone helps promote muscle memory — that doesn’t go away even after hormone therapy. Therefore, transgender girls have a heightened ability to build strength even after they’ve transitioned.


Entire article link (BTW, reported by many sources)>

Transgender woman golfer wins mini-tour event, aims for LPGA - Washington Times

Before/After photos>
Not a Ms!!!!!! He should be playing with his real sex!!!

WesMan 05-21-2021 05:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JMintzer (Post 1947777)
When you've gone thru puberty as a male, you've already developed differently than a female.

Bigger, stronger bones and joints, different biomechanics...

That does not change once you've gone thru reassignment surgery. You will forever have that physical advantage.

The golfer being discussed was a competitive male golfer on his college golf team...

His/her (before or after reassignment surgery, lest anyone think I'm using the wrong pronoun) biomechanics will let him/her swing faster, thus hitting the ball farther... Simple kinesiology... You know... Science...
Correct!!!!!

admiral72 05-21-2021 05:34 AM
Golf uses handicaps and different tees to make the match fair at the start. Just create a transgender tee box.

Caitlyn Jenner says you do not need a better putter you need breasts. quote:

The answer is no, my game is still really good. And to be honest, the breasts are really good for putting.'

She explained: 'I used to put a sock under my arm to help keep my arms straight, but now I don’t have to do that any more because I can hold my arms against my breasts, so it’s perfect.’

drgoofy 05-21-2021 05:53 AM
Not so simple
 
It really isn't that simple. Some babies are born with ambiguous genetalia and the attending physician may make the "wrong call." Sometimes the genetalia may be undeveloped at birth. Uninformed posters shouldn't be so quick to judge and condemn. Put yourself in the place of a parent who loves that child as much as its siblings.

donfey 05-21-2021 06:03 AM
Not so.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeanFL (Post 1947510)
.
.
Well, the landscape of Mens/Womens pro sports has a challenge, perhaps not totally new, but certainly will escalate in the future.

NEWS>>>
So much for fairness: Transgender woman golfer wins mini-tour event, aims for LPGA

Last week, Hailey Davidson, a transgender woman, won her first professional title in Florida, topping LPGA player Perrine Delacour for the win.

The same day, she was sent an email by the USGA saying she’s met the organization’s Gender Policy eligibility criteria and can now compete in its championships and she’s hoping to hear similar news from the LPGA via a reciprocity agreement, according to Golfweek.

In January, Ms. Davidson underwent gender reassignment surgery, and she’s been undergoing hormone treatments since 2015. Since transitioning, Ms. Davidson said she hits shorter and swings slower — yet she still was born a man, and obviously, has a physical advantage over biological women.

The science in these cases is clear. Biological men have more muscle mass, larger hearts and lungs, and therefore greater stamina than biological women. Their bones are bigger, and their testosterone helps promote muscle memory — that doesn’t go away even after hormone therapy. Therefore, transgender girls have a heightened ability to build strength even after they’ve transitioned.


Entire article link (BTW, reported by many sources)>

Transgender woman golfer wins mini-tour event, aims for LPGA - Washington Times

Before/After photos>
A transgender Woman is a MAN. The headline is incorrect. Period.

stanley 05-21-2021 06:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiverpoolWalrus (Post 1947862)
If you believe those Old Testament words written by humans are actually the word of God, fine. Does that mean we can ignore Jesus' admonition not to judge?
So you are basically saying nothing in the Bible should be believed because it was written by man?

JMintzer 05-21-2021 06:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taltarzac725 (Post 1947859)
I have seen body building women who look a lot more like men....
Pharmaceuticals...

cindyfeh 05-21-2021 06:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanley (Post 1947853)
I wasn' t going to take part in this "discussion" but since you brought up God, and Jesus.......

The most commonly cited verse on cross-gender behavior is Deuteronomy 22:5, “A woman must not wear men’s clothing, nor a man wear women’s clothing, for the Lord your God detests anyone who does this.

There is more.
You may want to research the relationship between Jesus and Old Testament Law. Old Testament Law helped to separate the Jewish people for Jesus coming. Jesus came to fulfill the law. The New Testament looks at the heart, and the focus is loving others as ourselves.

DanBrew 05-21-2021 06:53 AM
No, Bill14574, it is very simple. When you are born, you are created with X and Y chromosomes, also known as the sex chromosomes, which determine the biological sex of an individual: females inherit an X chromosome from the father for a XX genotype, while males inherit a Y chromosome from the father for a XY genotype (mothers only pass on X chromosomes). Now, if you want to act as if that science doesn't exist, that is your free will to do that. However, this is not an emotional situation, it is a fact. Please don't impose emotions on others who don't deserve it.

toeser 05-21-2021 06:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeanFL (Post 1947510)
.
.
Well, the landscape of Mens/Womens pro sports has a challenge, perhaps not totally new, but certainly will escalate in the future.

NEWS>>>
So much for fairness: Transgender woman golfer wins mini-tour event, aims for LPGA

Last week, Hailey Davidson, a transgender woman, won her first professional title in Florida, topping LPGA player Perrine Delacour for the win.

The same day, she was sent an email by the USGA saying she’s met the organization’s Gender Policy eligibility criteria and can now compete in its championships and she’s hoping to hear similar news from the LPGA via a reciprocity agreement, according to Golfweek.

In January, Ms. Davidson underwent gender reassignment surgery, and she’s been undergoing hormone treatments since 2015. Since transitioning, Ms. Davidson said she hits shorter and swings slower — yet she still was born a man, and obviously, has a physical advantage over biological women.

The science in these cases is clear. Biological men have more muscle mass, larger hearts and lungs, and therefore greater stamina than biological women. Their bones are bigger, and their testosterone helps promote muscle memory — that doesn’t go away even after hormone therapy. Therefore, transgender girls have a heightened ability to build strength even after they’ve transitioned.


Entire article link (BTW, reported by many sources)>

Transgender woman golfer wins mini-tour event, aims for LPGA - Washington Times

Before/After photos>
Biological men being allowed to compete against women is wrong on every possible level.

graciegirl 05-21-2021 07:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanley (Post 1947906)
So tell me, how exactly was I, or am I being disrespectful to anyone?
You are putting words in my mouth
I thanked you and I didn't mean to. One of the biggest problems about this whole argument about Sacred Scripture is the literal interpretation of written material that was translated several times as word usage changed over and over.

People who wrote the words lived in a time that was missing a lot of information and science. It appears to me to be something meant to guide and govern and inspire the people who lived at that time.

BUT THAT is a whole 'nuther argument.

I hold with no religion that justifies killing those who do not wish to belong or believe.

And I should not have written that. I know better than to start an argument about religion on here.

I haven't had my coffee.

I shouldn't push send without two cups.

Girlcopper 05-21-2021 07:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tmarkwald (Post 1947579)
I don't either. I live with everyone. But discrimination in this case is required. Has to be.

But men competing in a physical sport against women is simply wrong.

Even if he is wearing a dress.

As far as threats of physical harm?

Do you think it is OK for a man to follow your little girl into the ladies room?
Perfectly said. Everyone is a supporter of everything until it affects them personally. Then they jump up on their soap box and claim discrimination or bias

DaleDivine 05-21-2021 07:05 AM
I didn't see any reference to Michelle Wie playing on the PGA tour. Soooo, why can't men compete on the LPGA tour. Some women want to level the playing field.
:bigbow::bigbow:

Byte1 05-21-2021 07:11 AM
Originally Posted by stanley View Post
I wasn' t going to take part in this "discussion" but since you brought up God, and Jesus.......

The most commonly cited verse on cross-gender behavior is Deuteronomy 22:5, “A woman must not wear men’s clothing, nor a man wear women’s clothing, for the Lord your God detests anyone who does this.

There is more.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cindyfeh (Post 1947948)
You may want to research the relationship between Jesus and Old Testament Law. Old Testament Law helped to separate the Jewish people for Jesus coming. Jesus came to fulfill the law. The New Testament looks at the heart, and the focus is loving others as ourselves.
I'm not sure that your comparison is relevant. Sort of apples and oranges. The quoted scripture is related to what GOD mandates and what you are insinuating is that Jesus says is to love others. There is an old saying that "GOD hates the sin but loves the Sinner" or something like that.
Personally, I believe that this thread has strayed from the original point regarding transgenders competing "fairly" in sports. One can have private opinions about transgenders and gays but still have thoughts regarding physical advantages when competing in sports. Just because a poster does not condone transgenders in competition, whether in their birth gender or the opposite, does not mean those persons "HATE." I believe that to insinuate such is insulting and immediately puts a halt on the conversation.
To the poster(s) that feel that the term "freak" is insulting or disparaging, would a term like "abnormal" or "unusual" be considered less of a slur? Opinion and Fact is not always identical, is it?

Bill14564 05-21-2021 07:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanBrew (Post 1947950)
No, Bill14574, it is very simple. When you are born, you are created with X and Y chromosomes, also known as the sex chromosomes, which determine the biological sex of an individual: females inherit an X chromosome from the father for a XX genotype, while males inherit a Y chromosome from the father for a XY genotype (mothers only pass on X chromosomes). Now, if you want to act as if that science doesn't exist, that is your free will to do that. However, this is not an emotional situation, it is a fact. Please don't impose emotions on others who don't deserve it.
Please review your science. While what you write is correct for the majority, there is a minority that is different. But that is not the issue in this thread.

Impose emotions? My posts were arguing *against* the hate and prejudice on display in this thread. Those spewing that hate deserve to be called on it.

Larchap49 05-21-2021 07:23 AM
Gender
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu from NYC (Post 1947802)
Personally I do not believe the good lord above can make a mistake with someones gender.

If someone decides they are the opposite gender that is certainly their business and none of mine.

However given the differences between biologic males and females it is definitely wrong to allow a male who decides he is a female to compete in womens sports.
YES, that is the correct answer. Women becoming men could never compete successfully against male athletes but men becoming women will definitely have an advantage against women. To the point when this person walks on a golf course every biological women should walk off at every level. The golfing authorities would then fix the problem.

stanley 05-21-2021 07:24 AM
This statement I do not understand;

Quote:
Originally Posted by graciegirl (Post 1947958)
I hold with no religion that justifies killing those who do not wish to belong or believe.
Where did anyone say or imply that any religion (or person for that matter) justifies killing those who do not join or believe?

La lamy 05-21-2021 07:26 AM
There is definitely a physiological advantage even after hormone therapy. Not fair. I'd be so irate if I was a female athlete dealing with these transgender issues.


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