Unions have played a crucial role in securing many of the rights and benefits that workers enjoy today. In addition to paid holidays, paid vacations, and health care, unions have also been instrumental in advocating for and achieving:

The 8-hour workday and 40-hour workweek: Unions fought for limitations on working hours, leading to laws that standardize working time and establish the weekend.
Overtime pay: Workers receive higher compensation for hours worked beyond the standard workweek, thanks to union advocacy.
Minimum wage: Unions have been a driving force in the establishment and increase of minimum wage laws.
Child labor laws: Unions helped bring about laws that restrict child labor, ensuring children are not forced into exploitative working conditions.
Workplace safety regulations: Unions have fought for better working conditions, leading to the establishment of organizations like OSHA (Occupational Safety and Health Administration) and regulations that ensure safer workplaces.
Family and medical leave: Unions have pushed for policies like the Family and Medical Leave Act (FMLA), which provides employees with unpaid, job-protected leave for family or medical reasons.
Pensions and retirement benefits: Many pension plans and retirement benefits are the result of union negotiations.
Protections against workplace discrimination: Unions have supported laws like the Civil Rights Act that prohibits discrimination based on race, gender, religion, and more in the workplace.
Collective bargaining rights: The right for workers to negotiate as a group with their employer for better wages, benefits, and working conditions is a foundational union achievement.
Job security and grievance processes: Many union contracts protect workers from arbitrary dismissal and provide clear processes for addressing disputes or unfair treatment.
These are just a few of the additional contributions unions have made to improve labor conditions and workers' rights over the years.

Fear keeps the masses in check

Nonsense. Where is the data?
No unions? Less pay, less benefits, less job security for the employees. But, it certainly puts more money in the pockets of the owners.
Sounds like you have never benefitted from a union. What a shame.

Administrators:

Please remove this political thread.

Good post.

SOME of your points are true............but the ones true are very old and unions are living on 50, 60, 70 year old accomplishments. Unions "have delivered nothing lately" (I know that's extreme).

But read history, don't make it up............Henry Ford created 40 hour weeks and overtime long before unions were around.

The things unions "pushed for" as you say is true, but there is no proof the items would not have happened anyway.

Speaking from personal choices. I was self employed. Self employed means when you complain about or to the boss some see you are talking to yourself. When, they SCREAM how little they make and tax write offs that a business takes, they do NOT mention UNTAXED benefits.

I started over three times over 40 years. Union, you do your 20 years and retire to the villages with a pension and benefits. I am still taxed to pay for it.

Very difficult to sneak out early.

:mornincoffee:

I grew up in a poor Irish neighborhood in Queens with Harold, he was a friend of mine and a standup guy. As a New Yorker you learn to deal with the cards that are dealt to you.

Now I know there are many people on this site who hate unions, but what these people don’t realizes is that unions not only help their members, but also help nonunion members. When a union worker gets a raise, the non-union shop also gives a raise to their workers, either to keep the union out or to retain their workers. I represented my union for the last 5 years of my career and our union had a 3-year apprenticeship that was a must before you could take a job on your own. This was not only to make sure you were proficient but ensured the safety with people you were dealing with.

Automation is unstoppable and there is a good side and a not so good side. The goal of automation is to replace people and the very people who are champions of automations might find themselves unemployed one day. For those who are retired you are not spared, you see the smaller the workforce the less contributions into social security, inevitably forcing a reduction in benefits. I don’t have a solution, but someone better come up with one soon, AI is knocking at the door.

I would be considered pretty strongly conservative by most people but I do support collective bargaining. I consider it an expression of the first amendment. There are a lot of "ifs" around that though that I couldn't possibly get into on this forum.

I guess extortion is acceptable if you want to get paid much more than your skills are worth.

Remarks by Harold Daggett:

"If they don’t come to the table with real proposals, we’ll shut the ports down."

"We will never allow automation to take away our jobs. I’ll fight it to the death."

“First week, it will be all over the news — boom, boom, boom. Second week, guys who sell cars can’t sell cars because the cars ain’t coming in off the ships. They get laid off. Third week, malls start closing down. They can’t get the goods from China. They can’t sell clothes. They can’t do this. Everything in the United States comes on on a ship. They go out of business. Construction workers get laid off because the materials aren’t coming . The steel i s not coming in. The lumber is not coming in. They lose their jobs. Everybody is hating the Longshoremen now because now they realize how important our jobs are now.”

NOTHING is ONE ISSUE except people trying to support their BIAS. People tend to associate with similar people. The Villages is a clear example of this. I've been in neighborhoods where if, I was wiser I would not have gone. Kids grow up, seeing drug dealers with money fancy cars etc. EDUCATION? You do well in school and you are an outsider. Father knows best family are scarce as unicorn horns. MY PARENTS FAULT. I was taught by example, you work for what you NEED. If, you want something but don't need it,you buy it AFTER your NEED bills are PAID. A strange concept for many.

Answers? There are no simple EASY ones. A good start would be revamping our education system. The teacher's UNION would and does fight that.

I have a bad taste in my mouth trying to join the IBEW years ago so I have a dim view of unions. Now the dock workers (glorified equipment operators) who were making a nice $39/hr average with benefits that most do not have will be making $63/hr to push buttons and drive trucks. I doubt that hiring into these positions is done on merit but instead done through a good old boys network. This is bad for all of us who have to pay these overpaid thugs through increased prices on imported goods.

I never got any tax writeoffs as an employed person, in or out of a union. I was in a few unions. One of them was great. The others sucked. The purpose of unions is important, and should be supported. The implementation, not so much. It depends on the union.

The employee-run union at the phone company back when I first started working there in the 1990's was excellent. They negotiated paid insurance premiums on our choice of plans, including an HMO that was top-notch and affiliated with Yale University Hospital. Coordination of care was flawless between PCPs and specialists. We had something crazy like 11 paid holidays, plus 4 "personal days," 2 weeks paid vacation, bereavement pay, and 14 sick days per year that were stackable up to 28 days. We had our own on-staff nurse and wellness office, so anyone who wasn't feeling well could get a preliminary check right down the hall (I worked in Human Resources, so the nurse was on our floor).

We had a cafeteria that served pretty good food (for cafeterias), and we were just a block away from the edge of Downtown New Haven and could walk during our 45-minute (unpaid) break to just about any kind of grastronomic delight that interested us that day. I often went to Mamoun's Falafel Palace for a hummus plate and cardamom tea, and walked through the Yale Law School corridor on the way back to enjoy the architecture, and would sometimes sit outside the Beineke library to marvel at its translucent marble walls.

We had a pension rather than a 401k. Fully funded and matched up to 5% of our paycheck by the company. Our pay was excellent. My starting pay in 1991 was $10.00/hour. Minimum wage in 1991 was $4.25/hour, for comparison. I was what old-school phone workers called "steno." A departmental secretary who typed up stuff for the entire department, not just one boss.

And then, the CUTW was taken over by CWA, and everything went to crap. They wanted MORE and were adamant about not signing a contract that didn't give us MORE. We already got more than most corporations in the state - our dues were reasonable - but they had to "prove" to the employees that their union were bulldogs, and turned it into an us vs. them mentality. Previously, union negotiations were (mostly) civil. Now, they were combative.

They conceded job satisfaction in exchange for job security which felt more like jail. If a department needed to let someone go, that person could become a 3rd shift operator who now had quotas for upselling to customers calling them to fix problems.

Upward mobility became more difficult, and dues went up. I quit before things got too bad. I blame the union around 70% for the degradation of the employee trust, and 30% on the company's takeover by Whitacre and Southwestern Bell.

And so - unions absolutely have their place. But employee union members need to be pro-active, responsible, and keep themselves informed about what the union is doing to "protect" them. Sometimes they don't need protection and the union needs to just step back. When they are given free reign, they destroy more than they protect.

Don’t understand people in unions. Your father, grandfather and uncles never were coal miners? Unions were necessary to get safety in many different occupations but especially coal mines. A rising tide raises all boats union and non-union boats.

The first problem is we seek perfect answers but there is no such thing. Far as social secuity it is a prime example of mismanagement. Originally when started there were, if, I recall my reading, 12 workers for everyone collecting. WE are actually the problem. A huge mass of people retiring and going through the system. Today there are like two people working for everyone collecting. Social secuity had the numbers. They spent our money to expand benefits for those before us. They had a lot coming in. Now it is our turn. We paid a lot we want ours.
Problem is we had no choice but to buy into the system. Private insurance would have been cheaper. Truly shocking reality. Our national debt. Social secuity holds 40% of it. Imagine financing an obligation with the obligation. It would be illegal for a company to do that. INFLATION is a slight of hand trick. We need more to pay inflated higher prices. We pay those higher prices with after tax money. People do not realize how much less they have even with the number going up.

Far as HATE, I do not hate Unions. I keep my HATE list as empty as possible so can give anyone or anything to make my list my full attention.

AGAIN..............old news...............50 years ago............living on old history.

:loco:

Besides mismanagement there is one big issue with FICA which not only covers Social Security, but also Medicare. Instead of there being a percentage of total earned there is a cap of $160,200 in 2023 and $168,600 in 2024. You remove the cap and clamp down on off the book work and you'll see this problem disappear. Off the book work in this country is everywhere.

Did we learn anything?
 

We appear to have dodged the bullet for the time being. So, what are we going to learn from it?
Instead of focusing on whether unions are good or bad, how about paying attention to the fact that our Nation's daily way of life and our entire economy rely on IMPORTS.
We can no longer survive as a strong, independent Nation on our own. We can no longer produce the things that are vital to keep us functioning.
So, what are we going to do about it?
Maybe this particular union's actions have a provided a greater value than most believe.

There was a mention of unions how shall I say this, having mob influence.
I always say when addressing this topic.
In New York there are 3 ways of doing things and this is not only in New York.
The right way, the wrong way and the N.Y. way.
Assuming you want to put a pool in your back yard.

1. The right way you apply for a permit and wait for it to be approved which could be when hell freezes over, if it's approved at all.
2. The wrong way you put it in without a permit, hope you don't get caught and have to deal with it when you go to sell your house.
3. The N.Y. way, you make some phone calls to friends and an inspector come to your house, check the area and the size pool you want to put in tells you will have a permit within a couple of week and leaves with an envelope of cash you conveniently left on the table.
Anyone who does not believe this is not an everyday in this country needs to wake up.

Population density has a lot to do with what rules and regulations need to be in place. New York is an example and other large Metropolitan areas are other examples. Small towns and very rural areas not so much. We see changes in The Villages as the population has grown.

Response
 

and you call yourself "SAGE"?

Private sector unions serve their purpose when business owners abuse their workers. Wages are always limited by what the business can afford. Public sector unions have no market regulation on wages, and the result is ever-higher taxes and deficit spending. Private sector unions have diminished in power with the movement of jobs overseas, giving us a considerable trade deficit and the risk of a massive shock event when we can no longer purchase foreign goods with printed money. The solution will be painful following a failure of the financial system.

:rolleyes: No "Junior Member"..... he calls himself Mr. Helpful

Unions fester mediocrity. I worked my entire career in non-union companies. Employees were always encouraged to strive for faster, better, cheaper. Those who thrived in that environment were rewarded generously with hefty salary increases, stock options and bonuses. Those who did not eventually parted ways with company, whether voluntarily or involuntarily. Pensions were not needed. You self-funded retirement through 401k contributions which were matched by the company, in some cases up to 11% of your salary. The thought of not keeping up with productivity changes such as AI and automation was not tolerated. My career afforded me the American dream of early retirement with very comfortable financial stability. A union friend of mine once claimed he was a union hero because he figured out how to get the most time off without breaking any union rules. Appalling. BTW, robots will never stop working to hold our country hostage for self-interests.

Anti-Trust
 

If companies did what unions do they would be dragged into court and charged with violation of antitrust laws. They cannot even buy one another out without government approval.

Yet unions can form an all encompassing group and can act from New England to Texas and get a pass.

Interesting concept.

First work going offshore will happen even if unions did not exist, if workers here worked for a dollar an hour and an employer believes they could get the same product in India for $0.50 wave good-by the job is gone.
As far as tactics unions will use whatever muscle they have, and employers will use whatever lobbyist has the most influence to get what they want done.
Though this involves the lives of people in this country at the end of the day it's no more than a money game.
Watch the movie Other People's Money, a quote from the movie delivered by Danny Davito "Whoever dies with the most money wins".

Well put!

BTW, the Strike Stoppage was all political. Can't effect the economy with election day upon us.

Of course you did. You were responding to DAVES comment about untaxed benefits. Did you not have employer provided medical and dental coverage? Was the value of the premiums paid by your employer on your behalf taxed in any way? Umm, no.

So if you were making $20/hour salary, and the premiums were the equivalent of another $4/hour, that portion of compensation flowed to you tax free as a phantom "writeoff".

Keep in mind that if you weren't given medical, dental, and probably other benefits (life insurance?, disability insurance?, food?), you would pay for those things with after tax dollars. Also, you theoretically could have been paid $24/hour instead of $20/hour if your employer didn't choose to buy you benefits as there would be more money available for salaries.

100%

The middle class was doing quite well in 1990 thanks to the Unions. $20.00 a hour wages in 1990 was a living wage for most middle class workers. According to Google, $55.00 per hour today is its equal. With the demise of Unions, the middle class has considerably diminished.

40% of Americans today can’t come up with $400.00 in cash in case of emergencies. Those staying just a bit ahead of the curve are working two jobs. The fortunate Americans, like most of us, complain about minimum wage of $15.00 a hour driving up our cost when we dine out. There are more Billionaires than ever before in the history of our country. Is there something wrong with this picture? Is there an answer? Is there value in a Union?

Yes, that was absolutely..........I asked for clarification. Oh My.

:1rotfl::1rotfl:

Actually, we CAN produce it all. We CAN be self-sufficient. However, we're not willing to work for low wages and substandard benefits, and we're not willing to pay a premium for products manufactured by people who demand fair wages and benefits.

And so, we import from countries that have gone the authoritarian route, whose workers get paid what the government tells them they get paid, they work for however many hours per day the government tells them they work, with no prospect of "retirement," and they can sell product to us for less than it costs us to make it ourselves as a result.

I'd rather not live like that. I'm not willing for my country to turn into "that." I also would like to pay *less* for things. But in a capitalistic society, the shareholder of the stocks are the boss. If the shareholder says "bring us more profits" then the CEO does whatever he has to, to bring us more profits. He isn't being paid to care about his employees. He's being paid to return higher dividends to shareholders. Period.

I've negotiated contracts as a union rep.
When I sat at the table even though I knew my members were asking for something I would never get I would put it on the table. Sometimes this back and forth would last days other times it would last months, but at the end of the day I tried to get the best deal I could for the membership. I represented people, not profits, my goal was to get as much as I could without killing the golden goose.
Did I dislike the people across the table, the answer is no. The people across the table were not the employers most were from H&R and a lawyer. Were they putting something on the table much less than the real employer was willing to offer yes. But it was all part of the game.
See I was trying to get as much as I could for the members and the H&R people were trying to make their employer happy and protect their own job.
I still have a copy of the last contract I negotiated, there are 27 signatures on it 26 were representing the employer and the single one is mine.
Though this ends up being a tennis match, I was the one sitting at the table concerned with people lives. Financially I was not going to gain from whatever we agreed to, the only thing I would get is the respect from the membership.

If the employees were already getting great benefits, great retirement packages, great pay, a great working environment, and great company support - and then the company said "this next contract year we're going to offer the same, plus a 1% increase above the expected cost of living increase across the board" why would you try to fight for more? For every thing you demand from them, you have to sacrifice something. Negotiations are a give and take.

I'd rather my union rep say, "y'know what kids? This year, the union doesn't have to do a thing. The company is top-notch and treats us like the valued members of our company that we have always expected. So this year, we're reducing your union dues by 50%, since we really don't have to do much other than arbitrate disputes, which hardly ever happens anyway."

That'd be swell, in an environment where the company already treats their employees with the respect they deserve in all ways.

I don't believe that it is solely due to union membership, but that's a contributing factor. Folks have criticized FL, and while I don't think this is the greatest state to work and salaries are low, at least there is an increased minimum wage here. Some of these states won't even raise the minimum wage above $7.25 an hour.

As an FYI, I was in a union once....when I was in college and working part-time on the janitorial crew. My entire actual full-time working career, I was never in a union.

As far as my thoughts on many corporations laying people off in their late 50's before they reach retirement age, I was part of management and I know for sure that it is true. It's also backed up by statistics, you can actually see this statistic, it's not a figment of my imagination. There is a reason that 70% of Social Security recipients start collecting at age 62.

Share the factual statistic on both of your claims.

:popcorn:

I really try to post as objectively as I can, using real data and I try to leave my biases out of it. It's not really possible to do that 100%, but I try.

For context, I was on the right side of things. It was fortunate for me. I received stock options as part of my compensation. I received a yearly bonus and a raise. I didn't need a union....but the truth be told, the folks who did the majority of the work could certainly have used one.

The statistics are there. The average American worker has gotten killed in this country over the past 40 years, with meager gains in real wages. Corporate profits have been astonishingly high, as the investor class will tell you. 50 years ago, many employees had a defined pension plan that would augment Social Security with guaranteed income. Now, almost no workers get such a plan and are left to make their own investment choices and manage a 401(k). CEO and top management pay has gone way, way up, not so much the average American worker. Wealth disparity is at a 100% year high. Health insurance benefits seem to shift cost share to employees every passing year. Millions of good American jobs have been offshored overseas to cheaper labor who don't get many, if any, benefits.

The above is all true. The Villages is a relatively affluent retirement community, so I expect that the majority of folks who read this have fared better than the average American. But there are many, many retirees trying to live on Social Security and not much else, or having to work part-time jobs well into their 70's.

I'm not exactly sure what the answer is to all this....I am not an expert....maybe it's not unions, maybe it is....but the current status quo is not working great for the working man and woman in this country.

What has happened to us as a Nation?
Remember? "It's not what your country can do for you; it's what you can do for your country."

Here are facts vs. your fake news:

In the U.S., you can retire as early as 62 and start claiming your Social Security. And as of 2021, according to the Congressional Research Service, about 30% of Social Security applicants were 62.