Originally Posted by The Gazette (Post 2329967)

A report released this week from the United States Golf Association links El Niño, tree coverage limiting sunlight and aging infrastructure as some factors contributing to worsening golf course conditions in The Villages. The visit from Chris Neff, a consulting agronomist with USGA, comes amid a string of executive golf course closures due to renovation

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Originally Posted by Rich Iwaszko (Post 2330264)

Lotta chatter......thoughts... in no particular order

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Obviously the executive course greens were not built to USGA specs. They lack proper drainage and possibly not enough loam used.

...

Pro's are not greenskeepers, turf managers are. Again, a green doesn't get crusty overnight.


Solutions, redo greens to usga specs..........get more boots on the ground, qualified greenskeeper with less courses to monitor and to watch and analyzing conditions daily. It may cost more, BUT, you won't have to redo courses every so many years.

My biggest fear is that USGA Specs were not used when the greens were built. Time to make up for that. And adjust cultural practices for each course as determined by its peccadillo's. No more cookie cutter maintenance practices.

Originally Posted by ThirdOfFive (Post 2330118)

Funny thing about el Nino. It seems to be pretty selective, ravaging some courses while leaving other courses, often only a mile or so away, in excellent condition.

Originally Posted by BrianL99 (Post 2330288)

At the PWAC meeting a couple of weeks ago, Mitch Leininger said he thought the Executive Course greens were built to USGA specs. Upon further review, it seems that some are and some aren't. Some are straight "push up" greens.

According to the District, the "renovation" contracts all specify USGA Greens. I've seen the standards and I'm not convinced we're getting what we're paying for. I have spoken to the District and they've gone out of their way to listen, comment and perhaps consider tightening up their specs in the future.

As you know, you can build greens to Augusta National specs, and if you don't take care of them, they're not going to last. Rebuilding golf courses every 10-12 years (which is now the official cycle per the District), is the craziest thing I've ever heard. How many times did you guys "rebuild" Pocasset? Course maintenance in a place like TV is a 365 day a year challenge for professionals. The mow/fertilize/rebuild process is flawed.

Regarding your comment about PGA Professionals:

Apparently, the Golf Professionals in TV are also tasked as "Executive Golf course renovation design consultants and construction managers". I wrote a letter to the District last week and made the claim that "PGA Professionals manage golf, not construction and/or design". While most PGA Professionals are knowledgable, they're not agronomists, designers or construction managers.

Originally Posted by Rich Iwaszko (Post 2330323)

Do you really think Arnold Palmer commented on construction? Design maybe........I guess Nancy Lopez must have been the one.

Originally Posted by BrianL99 (Post 2330325)

Arnie showed up & hit a drive off #1 on Laurel Valley ... the plaque is in the fairway. Ed Seay probably did the design concept & some kid in the office did the plans. Not bad for $1,000,000.

Originally Posted by BrianL99 (Post 2330194)

I agree, to an extent.

That said, not every sport nor sport venue, is appropriate for adaptation to everyone's needs. The theory of "inclusiveness" is fine, until it's carried to the extremes.

Wheelchair racers shouldn't be racing in marathons, along side the folks who are actually "running".

Golfers who are riding all over a small, confined golf course in vehicles, should perhaps be playing on a "field" (course), built to accommodate such use, not one built for folks who are more mobile.

Just my opinion, your mileage may vary.

Originally Posted by thelegges (Post 2330370)

Have you ever been to marathons that have wheels? Take Run Disney (we get there at 2am for the cheer volunteer section) not at any time is a wheeled participant interfering with a runner.

Chairs, or custom adapted bikes, then strollers with all types of challenged and paraplegics, from young adults to some in their 90s at start line first. Followed by police Officers on bikes. All are across the finish line, 20-30 minutes prior to any runner.

According to your thoughts not every sport venue is appropriate for adaptation for handicap, and shouldn’t be allowed to participate because sports shouldn’t be carried to the extreme.

I am so glad you were elsewhere last week, when I had the privilege to play golf with a young man on a single rider. He was in his 40s, lost a leg and arm fighting for his country. He was fitted with bionic prosthesis.

At the shack he immediately apologized that he would slow me down, and effect my game. My return comment, no worries I taught 6-10 year olds summer golf, playing with you will be a pleasure.

I am thankful that the golf industry has made equipment to accommodate anyone who would like to enjoy the game of golf, or any sport for that matter.

Sorry you feel not all sports should be adapted, and those in TV that are health challenged should play golf in fields.

You should thank God every day that a stroke, or accident will ever impact your life, to the extent you speak of, to spend the rest of your days playing in a cow pasture.

Originally Posted by The Gazette (Post 2329967)

A report released this week from the United States Golf Association links El Niño, tree coverage limiting sunlight and aging infrastructure as some factors contributing to worsening golf course conditions in The Villages. The visit from Chris Neff, a consulting agronomist with USGA, comes amid a string of executive golf course closures due to renovation

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Originally Posted by BrianL99 (Post 2330016)

How many people here, have ever hired a Consultant and expected to the Consultant to publicly disagree with the official position?

There was no way the consultant was going to say: "You guys are a doing a crappy job of maintaining your golf courses and you all should be fired". Without saying it in words, I think the District has already conceded they haven't done a great job of maintaining the courses and have found themselves behind the curve.

I think we're going to see an entirely new attitude towards maintaining the Executive Courses, over the next year or two. It takes time to stop the current momentum and revamp the process. We are dealing with government and change comes slowly.

As for the report, my opinion is ...

"Trees" are the bane of golf courses. Roots and canopies do more to prevent grass from growing, than El Nino ever thought of.

If you don't properly maintain your greens, your organic layer increases every year and eventually you choke off the grass ... it just won't grow. I have never seen a green in TV get a deep core aeration. It may happen, but I've never seen it. #1 problem with greens.

There's too much traffic on the golf courses. Shocking news.

The "Landscapers" aren't held accountable. More shocking news.

We need a long-term plan, with identifiable goals and performance standards. Yep

We need to convert to newer strains of Bermuda. Already in progress.

We need to review our contracts and improve them. Even Mitch admitted that, at a PWAC meeting.

Traqmatz is a pretty cool product, but at $4/sq. ft., it's fairly costly.

It became abundantly clear that the District got the message, when they came up with the El Nino story and then brought in the USGA. We can all complain that it's too little too late, but at this point, things can only improve.

Now I'm about to put on my Flak Jacket.

In my opinion, we cannot sustain the Executive Golf courses, unless they are operated 100%, "Cart Path Only". You can not like it. You can disagree with it. You can say it's unfair. It's a fact. If you want reasonable conditions year round, get rid of the carts.

The truth is, if you can't walk the few steps it requires to play an Executive Course, without driving on the fairway, you really need to choose another sport. Your days as a golfer are behind you. I understand the MickyLee Pitch & Putt has plenty of Tee Times available.

If I were TV King for a Day, I'd pick out 5-10 Executive Golf courses and make them completely "walking only".

Just my opinion, your mileage may vary.

Originally Posted by ThirdOfFive (Post 2330118)

Funny thing about el Nino. It seems to be pretty selective, ravaging some courses while leaving other courses, often only a mile or so away, in excellent condition.

Originally Posted by Sunrise Beach (Post 2330092)

The removal of the trees was what I felt was a lousy excuse. Most great golf courses have beautiful trees throughout. I urge any management who might read this thread to reconsider that aspect. We know the grass will not be lush in those areas but at least we aren’t playing in a desert devoid of trees and a bit of shade.

Originally Posted by Shipping up to Boston (Post 2330414)

It’s really amazing how people interpret another’s post. He’s entitled to his opinion. He can speak for himself but your post is an attempt at shaming him...and also a veil threat at his future health IMO. Remind me not to book any appointments in your practice Doc! I love and attend adaptive sports events...especially at my kids schools. It’s exciting and well attended by students and parents. Had the opportunity to ski in NH with an individual with adaptive skis and was blown away by the skill level and fluidity. I can understand some may have limited experience/interaction with that community....but that being the case doesn’t make one against their advances into the mainstream. I read his post differently than you, having followed his intelligent, thoughtful and constructive posts in the past....I believe his intentions were without prejudice or malice to the community

Originally Posted by jimjamuser (Post 2330437)

The article mentions increased humidity in the air and increased clouds. I hate to say it but that is the big picture called planet warming. Increased CO2 from vehicle tailpipes cause this problem, which no one wants to talk about or about the OBVIOUS solution. I think it is almost humorous that it takes an expert to come here to talk about what scientists say is happening worldwide. And it keeps increasing for the last 5 years. They might as well have given me the MONEY for the consulting.

Originally Posted by jimjamuser (Post 2330442)

Agreed, but those "great golf courses" are mostly up north with different grasses and different climate conditions. Florida is an island which is now (last 5 years ) surrounded by record HEATED water.

Originally Posted by jimjamuser (Post 2330438)

If planet warming continues (which it will) the only grass that would be completely resistant would be Astro (artificial) TURF. And , at least, it would NOT require water and fertilizer.

Originally Posted by coleprice (Post 2330165)

Follow the Money!!! Chris Neff's consulting fees were paid by The Villages.

Executive Leadership employed by The Villages who are responsible for Golf Course Management are Replaced! Mitch Leininger, who is The Villages executive responsible for Golf Course Maintenance should be FIRED for the failure of his organization to maintain golf courses. His failure is costing Village residents many millions of dollars, so his replacement(s) must (1) Make necessary Organizational Changes, (2) Establish Priorities and (3) Direct & Empower those responsible for maintaining Golf Courses in good, playable condition. Some Executive Golf Courses are in great shape, which demonstrates that with the right leadership, golf course conditions can be properly maintained within the current budget. Also, it's nice to see that nobody is buying the lies about the weather causing golf course deterioration.

Originally Posted by jimjamuser (Post 2330450)

There is NO POINT in firing Mitch Leininger because NO human can stop the increased moisture coming from the Gulf and Oceans that surround Florida, which are much WARMER in the last 5 years. He can't stop the clouds or the moisture.

Originally Posted by jimjamuser (Post 2330437)

The article mentions increased humidity in the air and increased clouds. I hate to say it but that is the big picture called planet warming. Increased CO2 from vehicle tailpipes cause this problem, which no one wants to talk about or about the OBVIOUS solution. I think it is almost humorous that it takes an expert to come here to talk about what scientists say is happening worldwide. And it keeps increasing for the last 5 years. They might as well have given me the MONEY for the consulting.

Originally Posted by jimjamuser (Post 2330438)

If planet warming continues (which it will) the only grass that would be completely resistant would be Astro (artificial) TURF. And , at least, it would NOT require water and fertilizer. "Walking only" is probably a good idea but that won't stop the additional humidity and the increased cloudy days, which the "EXPERT" said was the major problem.

Originally Posted by BrianL99 (Post 2330449)

One has to admire your dedication to your cause.

I'd be all in on astro-turf golf courses, other than the nasty chemicals used to create that stuff are driving the earth's temperature through the roof already. I was thinking of going back up north for a while, but I just checked. The temperature at my home in NH is a sweltering 55 degrees today. Damn global warming.

Originally Posted by BrianL99 (Post 2330454)

I know I'm going to regret this, but you deserve a forum for your ideas, like anyone else.

I'm with you on CO2 from tail pipes, especially inefficient gas golf carts in a confined environment like TV. I'm all in on Electric Golf Carts.

So how do you propose we generate the electricity, to power all those EV's and prevent them from spewing all that CO2 into the atmosphere?

Originally Posted by Shipping up to Boston (Post 2330455)

Let us all know when you want to be taken seriously.....

Synthetic Turf is HAZARDOUS — Beyond Plastics - Working To End Single-Use Plastic Pollution

Originally Posted by jimjamuser (Post 2330472)

.........It seems that many golfing experts have many different solutions to the change in golf course grass. Strangely one solution that was proposed (but said to NOT be possible to implement) was to keep the golf carts off the course and only allow walking. Strangely, the reduced use of GAS golf carts would have a double advantage because of less weight on the grass AND less CO2, which HOLDS in the reflected Solar HEAT.

Originally Posted by BrianL99 (Post 2330454)

I know I'm going to regret this, but you deserve a forum for your ideas, like anyone else.

I'm with you on CO2 from tail pipes, especially inefficient gas golf carts in a confined environment like TV. I'm all in on Electric Golf Carts.

So how do you propose we generate the electricity, to power all those EV's and prevent them from spewing all that CO2 into the atmosphere?

Originally Posted by Teed_Off (Post 2330459)

Go nuclear!

Originally Posted by jimjamuser (Post 2330482)

Easily. The idea is that it is better to control pollution at one big, STATIONARY power generating plant than to control it on the moving vehicles and golf carts. Golf Carts have no catalytic converters to reduce pollution, but at the stationary ELECTRIC power generating plants they have HUGE CAPABILITY to stop air pollution.
........I just read that now today, California can generate ALL its power through CLEAN ENERGY. So, I don't just PROPOSE something - Ca. is proving that it can WORK. And in the near future better, and better batteries will be developed. The only thing that prevents this from happening nationwide is that the DYING OIL production conglomerate will fight progress tooth and nail. Already they have succeeded in having US major automobile manufacturers cut back on production of E-vehicles. I can only HOPE that small car manufacturers step in and produce more E-vehicles and E-golf carts.
........Oh, and I expect to hear jokes and guffaws about ANYTHING positive to be said about California. so bring that good stuff on!

Originally Posted by BrianL99 (Post 2330485)

I'm with you! I hate to admit publicly, but I'm with you on that one.

Originally Posted by BrianL99 (Post 2330485)

I'm with you! I hate to admit publicly, but I'm with you on that one.

Originally Posted by tophcfa (Post 2330561)

Anything not electric is killing our planet and global warming is a disaster. I’m taking that stance because the last time I attempted to correct a moron I had to spend a month in the penalty box.

Originally Posted by jimjamuser (Post 2330472)

I said that about Astro Turf for the greens, not the whole fairways. And maybe better for par 3s. Maybe computer golf for the fairway shots and then outside to use Astro Turf-type grass greens or real grass greens. That would definitely cut down on the wheel traffic damage while playing golf. Actually there are some studies that link baseball players playing for years on Astro Turf to brain cancer. So, it seems like there would FIRST need to be found a plastic grass carpet that did NOT give off any harmful chemicals into the air.
.....I merely tried to add to the discussion things that I am familiar with like the science of the change in climate and how it could affect even such an unlikely thing as golf course conditions. But, remember that Florida is special. It is an island surrounded by HOT water. And that affects Florida climate, which affects Florida golf course grass.
.........It seems that many golfing experts have many different solutions to the change in golf course grass. Strangely one solution that was proposed (but said to NOT be possible to implement) was to keep the golf carts off the course and only allow walking. Strangely, the reduced use of GAS golf carts would have a double advantage because of less weight on the grass AND less CO2, which HOLDS in the reflected Solar HEAT.

Originally Posted by Papa_lecki (Post 2330585)

I’d rather have the temperatures rise 0.5 degrees than Glioblastoma (brain cancer)
Artificial turf potentially linked to cancer deaths of six Phillies ball players – report | Cancer | The Guardian

Originally Posted by jimjamuser (Post 2330472)

I said that about Astro Turf for the greens, not the whole fairways. And maybe better for par 3s. Maybe computer golf for the fairway shots and then outside to use Astro Turf-type grass greens or real grass greens. That would definitely cut down on the wheel traffic damage while playing golf. Actually there are some studies that link baseball players playing for years on Astro Turf to brain cancer. So, it seems like there would FIRST need to be found a plastic grass carpet that did NOT give off any harmful chemicals into the air.
.....I merely tried to add to the discussion things that I am familiar with like the science of the change in climate and how it could affect even such an unlikely thing as golf course conditions. But, remember that Florida is special. It is an island surrounded by HOT water. And that affects Florida climate, which affects Florida golf course grass.
.........It seems that many golfing experts have many different solutions to the change in golf course grass. Strangely one solution that was proposed (but said to NOT be possible to implement) was to keep the golf carts off the course and only allow walking. Strangely, the reduced use of GAS golf carts would have a double advantage because of less weight on the grass AND less CO2, which HOLDS in the reflected Solar HEAT.

Originally Posted by jimjamuser (Post 2330553)

Thank you. I won't tell anyone that you agreed with me. It can stay a secret.

Originally Posted by Two Bills (Post 2330601)

Save a fortune in cost and maintenance.
Get rid of sand traps on all Executive courses.