[SHIBUMI]

Pretty sure they open the face in some fashion depending on the shot, otherwise no spin, best watch closer on the next event..........

Originally Posted by BrianL99

There is hardly a single player on the PGA (or low handicapper, anywhere), who "opens the face" on a sand shot. Modern Sand Wedges and the sand that's typically used at golf courses these days, do not require the face to be open.

For the last 20 Rounds, I've average 39% "up & down" from Bunkers (which would put me DFL on the PGA Tour), but pretty good for single-digit. I would never open the face on a Sand Wedge, unless I was making some sort of specialty shot. Opening the face is why most amateurs blade bunker shots across the green.

Most modern Sand Wedges (depending on the grind) do not add bounce when you open the face. Rarely will you find a good player, who doesn't have heal relief grind on his Sand Wedge ... it's the modern way. If you need to add loft, you lower your body & hands (Stan Utley method).

If you have a problem with Bunker Shots: align square, keep your club face square ... picture the golf ball as a "sunny side up egg" and swing so you get the whole egg.

[Rainger99]

Originally Posted by SHIBUMI

Pretty sure they open the face in some fashion depending on the shot, otherwise no spin, best watch closer on the next event..........

According to this video, Rory recommends opening the face.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vb2UCnI2G8U

[BrianL99]

Originally Posted by SHIBUMI

Pretty sure they open the face in some fashion depending on the shot, otherwise no spin, best watch closer on the next event..........

Originally Posted by Rainger99

According to this video, Rory recommends opening the face.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vb2UCnI2G8U

The spin on a bunker shot (or any shot), is a function of friction, more than loft.

In the video posted, Rory's is demonstrating what I would call a specialty shot. He's trying to fly it high to the pin, to make it stop. I wouldn't typically use a shot like that, because you need to swing too hard, to generate enough energy to fly it so far. That shot is beyond the capability of most mortals in TV.

Back 2-3 years ago, Rory changed his Wedge setup. He went from low-mid bounce Wedges to very high bounce wedges. I suspect it was because he's so aggressive at the ball. "Bounce is your friend" ... but in moderation.

The key is using the bounce and as Mr. Shibumi said, completing your swing ... take the whole egg, don't stop at the yolk.

FWIW, the theory of the original sand wedge derives from Gene Sarazen, who was the supposed "inventor" and it debut at the 1932 British Open. He supposed got his inspiration, from watching ducks land on a pond. The ducks raise their toes and land "heel first" .... hence the bounce on sand wedges (& almost all clubs).

[SHIBUMI]

But, to be clear, the backswing needs to make the golf shaft go vertical in order to create down angle, the completion of the swing will vary based on the length of shot, shorter shot shorter finish, longer shot longer finish....aka, Gary Player on bunker play............
Any sand wedge will work if this is done, OR, you can buy a heavy bottomed wedge for those that chip out of the bunker..whatever floats your boat

Originally Posted by BrianL99

The spin on a bunker shot (or any shot), is a function of friction, more than loft.

In the video posted, Rory's is demonstrating what I would call a specialty shot. He's trying to fly it high to the pin, to make it stop. I wouldn't typically use a shot like that, because you need to swing too hard, to generate enough energy to fly it so far. That shot is beyond the capability of most mortals in TV.

Back 2-3 years ago, Rory changed his Wedge setup. He went from low-mid bounce Wedges to very high bounce wedges. I suspect it was because he's so aggressive at the ball. "Bounce is your friend" ... but in moderation.

The key is using the bounce and as Mr. Shibumi said, completing your swing ... take the whole egg, don't stop at the yolk.

FWIW, the theory of the original sand wedge derives from Gene Sarazen, who was the supposed "inventor" and it debut at the 1932 British Open. He supposed got his inspiration, from watching ducks land on a pond. The ducks raise their toes and land "heel first" .... hence the bounce on sand wedges (& almost all clubs).

[BrianL99]

Originally Posted by SHIBUMI

But, to be clear, the backswing needs to make the golf shaft go vertical in order to create down angle, the completion of the swing will vary based on the length of shot, shorter shot shorter finish, longer shot longer finish....aka, Gary Player on bunker play............
Any sand wedge will work if this is done, OR, you can buy a heavy bottomed wedge for those that chip out of the bunker..whatever floats your boat

I think you're mired in the 60's, Mr. Shibumi. The world of golf has changed, as have the clubs and the sand.

Gary Player was a great bunker player, in a different time. He used a technique that relied on endless practice and huge talent. He had clubs designed before we had high-speed video, that showed exactly what happens when a club enters the sand.

Justine Rose is generally considered one of the 2 or 3 best bunker players in the world.

No "vertical shaft", the opposite. No "open club face". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVGPdufXXIc


I'll concede that Luke Donald, also considered one of the best bunker players of the last 25 years, does use an open club face and more hands. Access Denied

[SHIBUMI]

Thanks for the Justin Rose Video.........he still went vertical with the shaft...(actually slightly past but thats okay, he just sat deeper....and he had the face slightly open.........there is very little new in hitting a green side bunker shot,
sand is sand whether its from the 60's or the 2,000's, its all about angles

and if taught correctly can only take 10-15 minutes to accomplish and make you a good bunker player

Originally Posted by BrianL99

I think you're mired in the 60's, Mr. Shibumi. The world of golf has changed, as have the clubs and the sand.

Gary Player was a great bunker player, in a different time. He used a technique that relied on endless practice and huge talent. He had clubs designed before we had high-speed video, that showed exactly what happens when a club enters the sand.

Justine Rose is generally considered one of the 2 or 3 best bunker players in the world.

No "vertical shaft", the opposite. No "open club face". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVGPdufXXIc


I'll concede that Luke Donald, also considered one of the best bunker players of the last 25 years, does use an open club face and more hands. Access Denied

[swooner]

Originally Posted by SHIBUMI

What must happen to give you any chance of getting out of a green side bunker in one shot?

No its not a hand mashie.............

Take about four steps and be careful not to trip on the lip!

[swooner]

Take about four steps and be careful not to trip on the lip!

[SHIBUMI]

When I say vertical I am not referring to the arm swing or body rising....... the reference is to the club shaft going vertical due to the correct hinging of the wrists.......hopefully that clears up the vertical part

if the club shaft doesn't go vertical from the wrist hinge you are chipping it out...very similar to a pitch shot

Originally Posted by SHIBUMI

Thanks for the Justin Rose Video.........he still went vertical with the shaft...(actually slightly past but thats okay, he just sat deeper....and he had the face slightly open.........there is very little new in hitting a green side bunker shot,
sand is sand whether its from the 60's or the 2,000's, its all about angles

and if taught correctly can only take 10-15 minutes to accomplish and make you a good bunker player

[BrianL99]

Originally Posted by SHIBUMI

When I say vertical I am not referring to the arm swing or body rising....... the reference is to the club shaft going vertical due to the correct hinging of the wrists.......hopefully that clears up the vertical part

if the club shaft doesn't go vertical from the wrist hinge you are chipping it out...very similar to a pitch shot

Originally Posted by SHIBUMI

Thanks for the Justin Rose Video.........he still went vertical with the shaft...

there is very little new in hitting a green side bunker shot,
sand is sand whether its from the 60's or the 2,000's, its all about angles

I disagree there's nothing new. The sand is different and the clubs (& therefore their interaction with the sand) are different.

That said, a "chipping" motion rom a bunker is a fool's errand, yet I see it all the time.

Justin Rose at the "top" (nearly vertical).

[jimhoward]

Managing your game to avoid greenside bunkers is the best strategy for most mid and high handicappers, laying up if required.

The average number of strokes to get down from a greenside bunker is between 3.2 and 3.5.

A 14 hdcp will miss the green from the bunker 30% of the time and leave it in the bunker 10% of the time. On average we will put it 20 feet from the hole. Its about the same as a 100 yard pitch shot.

BrianL99's results are exceptional. A 40% up-and-down rate is more typical of a scratch player than a single digit handicap. So he is an excellent bunker player and this advice does not apply to him.

[Larry P.]

Originally Posted by SHIBUMI

What must happen to give you any chance of getting out of a green side bunker in one shot?

No its not a hand mashie.............

I was taught "hard sand, soft swing; soft sand, hard swing". And 60-70% of your weight and your lead leg (left leg for a right handed golfer). That and a sand wedge with a large sole seems to work well for me. I call my sand wedge James Brown because it's the "King of Sole".

[lawgolfer]

Originally Posted by SHIBUMI

What must happen to give you any chance of getting out of a green side bunker in one shot?

No its not a hand mashie.............

Opening the face of a regular sand wedge is the classic shot; however, it requires considerable skill and practice. If you are off even the slightest bit, you will either slam the ball into the edge of the bunker or skull it across the green.

The better/easier method is to use a sand wedge with a large sole and address the ball as you would on any shot from the fairway-that is straight up and square to the hole. Minimize any movement of your body. Don't tuck in your left knee, don't try to shift your weight. Just get square to the ball, place it in the middle of your stance as you would if on the fairway, and swing the club with your arms only. Use a "relaxed" grip with the "V's" of the thumb and forefinger on each hand pointed to their respective shoulders, in contrast to a "strong" grip where both "V's" point towards your right shoulder.

Go to eBay and search for the sand wedge for this shot that was first designed by Ben Hogan. It is the Shur-Out in 56 deg (60 deg will also work). These are getting hard to find in decent condition; however, both Callaway and Tour Edge make copies which you can find on eBay. If you want one immediately, Golf Central at Brownwood (Paddock Square) has the Tour Edge model.

Finally, the key to a successful sand shot is to swing the club on through the shot just as you would a shot from the tee or the fairway. The failure of most golfers when making a sand shot is to chop down on the ball and, literally, stop the swing when the club hits the sand, or, decelerate the club on the downswing out of fear they will hit the ball too far. Rarely do amateur golfers hit a sand shot too far.

Finally, to learn this shot, do not start in the bunker! Go to a driving range where you can hit off of grass. Hit as many balls as you need with the new wedge to feel comfortable taking a full swing. You'll be surprised to learn that with a full swing you are likely to hit the ball no more than 20-25 yds. Next, when you go into the bunker to practice, take a rake with you and give yourself a nice, flat surface to hit from. For the first several weeks that you have to make a sand shot when playing, do the same thing-give your self a nice, flat, and smooth lie (just don't be playing your partners for money). Making the hard shots can come later. You first need to learn to make the easy shots from the sand.

[SHIBUMI]

Happy you got it.......emulate and enjoy

Originally Posted by BrianL99

I disagree there's nothing new. The sand is different and the clubs (& therefore their interaction with the sand) are different.

That said, a "chipping" motion rom a bunker is a fool's errand, yet I see it all the time.

Justin Rose at the "top" (nearly vertical).

[BrianL99]

Originally Posted by lawgolfer

Opening the face of a regular sand wedge is the classic shot; however, it requires considerable skill and practice. If you are off even the slightest bit, you will either slam the ball into the edge of the bunker or skull it across the green.

The better/easier method is to use a sand wedge with a large sole and address the ball as you would on any shot from the fairway-that is straight up and square to the hole. Minimize any movement of your body. Don't tuck in your left knee, don't try to shift your weight. Just get square to the ball, place it in the middle of your stance as you would if on the fairway, and swing the club with your arms only. Use a "relaxed" grip with the "V's" of the thumb and forefinger on each hand pointed to their respective shoulders, in contrast to a "strong" grip where both "V's" point towards your right shoulder.

Go to eBay and search for the sand wedge for this shot that was first designed by Ben Hogan. It is the Shur-Out in 56 deg (60 deg will also work). These are getting hard to find in decent condition; however, both Callaway and Tour Edge make copies which you can find on eBay. If you want one immediately, Golf Central at Brownwood (Paddock Square) has the Tour Edge model.

Finally, the key to a successful sand shot is to swing the club on through the shot just as you would a shot from the tee or the fairway. The failure of most golfers when making a sand shot is to chop down on the ball and, literally, stop the swing when the club hits the sand, or, decelerate the club on the downswing out of fear they will hit the ball too far. Rarely do amateur golfers hit a sand shot too far.

Finally, to learn this shot, do not start in the bunker! Go to a driving range where you can hit off of grass. Hit as many balls as you need with the new wedge to feel comfortable taking a full swing. You'll be surprised to learn that with a full swing you are likely to hit the ball no more than 20-25 yds. Next, when you go into the bunker to practice, take a rake with you and give yourself a nice, flat surface to hit from. For the first several weeks that you have to make a sand shot when playing, do the same thing-give your self a nice, flat, and smooth lie (just don't be playing your partners for money). Making the hard shots can come later. You first need to learn to make the easy shots from the sand.

Excellent advice and I agree 100%. Making a zillion adjustments for a higher handicap player, is just asking for trouble. Use your usual setup and swing and keep your lower body quiet. Same swing, just "lower".

The average player's goal should be to make sure your next shot is a putt.

One of the best pieces of advice I ever got on bunker play, relates primarily to fairway bunkers. You need to keep your lower body still or you're never going to get the sole of the club back to the exact spot you need to get it. I think the tip came from Tom Watson and he said to "pinch your knees" to quiet the lower body. As you point out, it really applies to all bunker shots. You need to limit your lower body movement (Stan Utley is a huge proponent of this, with his recommendation for a very wide stance in a bunker).

To your other point of avoiding bunkers, great advice. Unless I have an PW or less in my hand, I'm not playing over any green side bunkers, unless I have a10-15 yard gap ... I'm going around them. 2 reasons for this. A) I don't want my next shot to be out of a bunker, if I can help it. B) If I do end up in a bunker I wasn't trying to fly over, the odds are, it rolled in there. A ball that rolls into a bunker is almost always easier to get out, than a ball you flew into a bunker.