I played Escambia yesterday, and, yes the pin placements were still in challenging positions. However, as an aside, I must say the greens were in absolutely perfect condition...just about the best I have ever seen in TV. Kudos to whomever does the maintenance down there.

For anyone that doubts your experience and descriptions of balls rolling off the green, they should view footage of previous US OPENS held at Pinehurst #2. And yes, those tournaments are USGA sanctioned.

Unreasonable Pin Placements
 

I do not question the speed of US Open greens. That is not the same as a pin placement on a slope where the ball is not able to stop within a couple feet of the hole. Apples and oranges.

Even US Open ultra-lightening-fast greens comply with USGA pin placement requirements.

Pin placements
 

Suck it up ....
Have then put some kleenex at the green !!

Pin positions
 

Pin positions at Briarwood were also cut close to edge of greens and on awkward slopes and crests of spines running thru the greens on Saturday 3/26. USGA recommends pins be cut a minimum of 10 feet from edge of greens and common sense should prevail on the locations.

That's why they made the two golf courses with the six inch holes, for cry babies like y'all. And trust me the pros play much, much harder holes than we do.

Darien, sympathize with your frustration about pin placement but just my own personally opinion, I think pin placement is to make our Executive courses very challenging & they sure are. Executive courses are easy enough other than the pin placement. You ought to ask yourself, am I hitting all the greens off the tee & the answer is NO then your not playing from the right tees, hitting those big greens ought to be easy & to putt your 1st putt on a graded hole should be easy & the 2nd putt should be in the cup. But I do agree with you partly. It seems like they always put the cup on a graded slope. I guess that's what keeps us all on the public course & not on the Pro circuit!

Rule 16

Requirements for Hole Location on the Putting Green

Q. What are the requirements for establishing a hole location on the putting green?

A. The USGA frequently receives requests for guidelines with respect to selection of hole locations on the putting greens, particularly during competitions. There are no rules regarding hole locations, so there is no such thing as an "illegal" hole location. The USGA believes that many factors affect selection of hole locations. The first and most important is good judgment in deciding what will give fair results. Do not be tricky in locating holes. Following are specific points:

Study the design of the hole as the architect intended it to be played. Know the length of the shot to the green and how it may be affected by the probable conditions for the day - that is, wind and other weather elements, conditions of the turf from which the shot will be played, and holding quality of the green.
There must be enough putting green surface between the hole and the front and the sides of the green to accommodate the required shot. For example, if the hole requires a long iron or wood shot to the green, the hole should be located deeper in the green and further from its sides than should be the case if the hole requires a short pitch shot. In any case, it is recommended that generally the hole be located at least four paces from any edge of the green. If a bunker is close to the edge, or if the ground slopes away from the edge, the distance should be greater, especially if the shot is more than a pitch. Consideration should be given to fair opportunity for recovery after a reasonably good shot that just misses the green.
An area two to three feet in radius around the hole should be as nearly level as possible and of uniform grade. In no case should holes be located in tricky places, or on sharp slopes where a ball can gather speed. A player above the hole should be able to stop the ball at the hole.
Consider the condition of nearby turf, especially taking care to avoid old hole plugs which have not completely healed.
Holes should be cut as nearly on the vertical as possible, not plumb with the contour of the green.
There should be a balanced selection of hole locations for the entire course with respect to left, right, central, front and back positions. For example, avoid too many left positions with resulting premium on drawn or hooked shots.
For a competition played over several days, the course should be kept in balance daily as to degree of difficulty. In a stroke competition, the first hole of the first round is as important as the last hole of the last round, and so the course should not be set up appreciably more difficult for any round - balanced treatment is the aim. An old concept of making the course progressively harder round after round is fallacious. One form of balanced daily treatment is to select six quite difficult, six which are moderately difficult and six which are relatively easy.
During practice days before a competition, locate holes in areas not to be used during the competition and which will not result in areas to be used being impaired by foot traffic.
Anticipate the players' traffic patterns. Locate holes for early rounds so that good hole locations for later rounds will not be spoiled by players leaving the green.
In match play, a hole location may, if necessary, be changed during a round provided the players in each match play with the hole in the same location. In stroke play, Rule 33-2b requires that all competitors in a single round play with each hole cut in the same position, but see Exception to that Rule. When 36 holes are played in one day, it is not customary for hole locations to be changed between rounds, but there is no Rule to prohibit changing them. If they are changed, all players should be informed.
The greenskeeper who cuts the holes should make sure that the Rules of Golf are observed, especially the requirements that the hole not exceed 4 ¼ inches in outer diameter and that the hole-liner be sunk at least one inch below the putting green surface.

Oh get a clue. If you read the whole thread, you'll see a reasonable discussion of pin placement. And you'll also see many who observe the "radical" pin placements also recommend not losing sleep over it. Have fun.

But google USGA pin placement. You'll see what the reasonable discussion is about. And nobody is saying the pros don't play much, much harder holes than we do. Duh! But the pros don't play pin placements like many on the Exec courses either. That's a pure fact. So quit crying about the "cry babies".

6" holes
 

[QUOTE=JohnFromMaine;1204258]Over this winter I have noticed some pretty unusual and, frankly, unfair pin placements. Many have been within 4 or 5 feet of the fringe and often they have been on steep slopes at the same time. Most have been on the executive courses but I have seen some on the championship courses as well.

Today (3/26/16) I played Escambia and 8 of the 9 pins were near the fringe and most were up on steep slopes as well. We all had problems with the very sharp breaks, having the ball run way past the hole or coming up just short. While there’s no excuse for missing a putt, no matter the situation, but then again, there’s no excuse for unreasonable pin placements either.

One day a few months ago I played golf with a fellow who worked as a starter. We were having to deal with similarly difficult pin placements and he told us that the staff who place the pins are not golfers. I would hope that their superiors would be, at the very least, familiar with the game and pin placements. There should be guidelines for all the golf courses for reasonable placement of the pins.

We’re not pros playing for the big bucks. We play for recreation and fun. The unreasonable pin placements take some of the enjoyment out of the game.[/QUOTE

Play one of the courses with 6" holes

:bigbow:

[QUOTE=olemon;1205197]:mademyday:

No issues with Pin Placements. I am a weekend Executive Course golfer still learning to handle my clubs. I have found some difficult pin placements also but enjoy the challenge. Playing is fun and the game is challenging. Never know which game I'm bringing to the course. Hope they continue to keep the pin placements interesting. To easy makes it boring.

Thanks again Polar Bear.

OB, by "Darien," I assume you mean me.
I don't believe that those who physically move the pins know enough about golf to know how to make the executive courses more challenging and I've had two different starters confirm that.

As to hitting all the greens off the tee, I challenge you to find me a Villager, much less a pro, who hits every single par 3 green from any tee, every time. I just watched the WGC Match Play Championship and many of those guys missed more than one par 3 green during the tournament.

As for the "cry-babies" here, I don't think that there are any. We're just discussing, hopefully in a friendly manner, pin placements that reduce the enjoyment of the game being played by retired folks.

I play for fun (and exercise) and I enjoy a reasonable challenge. I don't overly mind being frustrated by things like my somewhat flawed swing, or my head looking up to see where the ball went even before it's left, or those beyond my control, such as wind. I just would like to see some more reasonable pin placements.

The site you referenced, DOES NOT STATE REQUIREMENTS, it states suggestions. The very first sentence tells you plainly that there are no rules or requirements for flag placement. That full list as you called it, is answer to a question. and the first sentence answers the question: THERE ARE NO RULES OR REQUIREMENTS FOR FLAG PLACEMENT.

I agree with John from Maine regarding "reasonable" placement of pins on our greens, especially on the executives for one big reason, "speed of play".
I have golfed for a long time and they don't bother me too much but I feel for many of the "newbies", or less experienced, to the game, it causes them many challenges reading the green for speed,slope, etc. Especially if they end up playing on a Level 3 or 4 exec. course.

None of us like to go out and have to wait and wait for slower players. More "reasonable" pin placements that aren't so challenging, is one way to help golfers get their putts in quicker, and help improve speed up play. I know there are many other things that could improve speed of play, i.e. 1) Beginners, only playing Level 1 and 2 executive level courses; 2)More training for them on golf etiquette and slow play; 3) Practicing more; 4) Getting off the tee box and fairways quicker,(numerous things they could do here to help that part of their game); 5) Ambassadors that are a little more active it helping them to speed up their play with suggestions and directions, to list a few.
We are all there to have fun and improve our game. Friendlier pin placements by people who play the game might help.

:rant-rave:I stand corrected. They are not requirements.

But neither are they "suggestions". The PGA and USGA adhere to the guidelines religiously for major tournaments. Just to pick one...

"An area two to three feet in radius around the hole should be as nearly level as possible and of uniform grade. In no case should holes be located in tricky places, or on sharp slopes where a ball can gather speed. A player above the hole should be able to stop the ball at the hole."

There have been major championships where a pin placement did not adhere to this "suggestion". And in defense of the groundskeepers, it's usually due to unforeseen wind and drying conditions. The pros made no bones about their feelings. And rest assured no future pin placement in that tournament pushed the limits again.

I'm not sure why you're making such a fuss over a discussion of reasonable pin placements. It's obvious there is such a thing as an unreasonable pin placement. It's a no-brainer for most knowledgeable golfers. And nobody I've heard has suggested you ruin your day over one. But you seem to want to insist that pros routinely play pin placements like some of the more radical ones on the Exec courses. That's simply not the case.

Wow, this is the second time this week...I must be getting cranky in my old age:rant-rave:...but I'm gonna bow out of this thread. It's another thread that's reached that spinning-wheels stage. I don't think there's much new to be said, and obviously (as usual) opinions will not be changed...which is okay of course. :icon_wink:

Keep it in the short grass.

FYI, I used to be a starter/ambassador and the pin placement is supposed to be located so that there is a flat area at least three feet in circumference around the hole. This is not only for fairness to the golfers but to speed up play as well. When I would go out in the mornings to inspect my course and I notice situations with pin placements such as you described, I'd call the course managers and have the maintenance crew come out and relocate the pins. I hope those bad guys, perpetrators, toss and turn all sleepless night long after putting the pins on slopes.

Great to hear GM. Thanks.

Well said PB. We've all had our say and made our points. And, we may not all agree but ... as you say; "... which is okay of course."

Thanks to all for your thoughts. Hopefully all the powers that be at all the country clubs will become aware of these concerns.

Hit 'em, if not long, at least straight and keep that head down. :wave:
:gc:

I have to agree. Played Heron yesterday and it really is obvious someone goes to to great lengths to make it almost impossible to get to the cup. I can see one or two tough pin placements but not all. Someone needs to supervise the people doing this.

Au contraire: Its because I love the game and respect its challenges that I do not complain about it being unfair. I suspect your comments may apply to some but not all. and just because someone does not complain about a green not mowed etc doesn't me they don't know or don't care. It may mean to them, that's the lot a drew today. I did my best. I'll mention the missed mowing to the starter.

Keep in mind that these courses get a lot of play. Keep in mind that the same people that cut a hole for pin placement are the same guys that set the tees at the tee box and they miss there also because they are not professionals caretakers on a PGA played course. BUT the person ultimately responsible for my golf game is ME.

Personal Best Regards>

PS I don't do do overs either.

Let's see. You have all the time it takes to get set up, wear your Sunday best to play in, ride up to the ball to hit it, can use range finder to determine distance, control over the which club to use, can look see which way the wind blowing, take practice swing, and alien up the shot. Now it unfair to where the pin placed so you don't shoot bad score.


Give me break! This is too funny

Pin placement often reflects the attitude of the person doing the placing. It sounds like the Escambria experience reflected a really bad karma day. BTW, complaints regarding Executive Courses are best directed to the Community Development District, specifically to Eric Van Gorder (753-3396) who is responsible for executive course maintenance, and who responds directly to John Rohan. At that level, you might influence the quality of golf here.

:bigbow:

Sorry but this is one thread where I won't take the advice of a poster named Bogie Shooter! I hope you have a sense or humor! :1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

I agree PB. I never in my wildest dreams thought there could so much discussion and opinions about a four inch hole in the ground. I'll keep on putting towards the four inch hole in the ground wherever it may be until I've been put'ed into a 6 foot hole in the ground!

:ho:

I saw that situation on #1 on Volusia a few months ago; the hole was on the slope between the tiers. Uphill putts either went in or rolled back down. Downhill putts had no chance and then you putted uphill just to have your putts roll back down. Tee times were delayed because of many putts. Bad choice for pin placement by the groundskeepers.

1. Most beginners (and probably a % of "seasoned" executive course golfers) have no idea what you're talking about or don't care; they're just looking for a tee time anywhere.
2. Training on golf etiquette and slow play? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
3. Practicing more? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Very few of them will ever give up that stiff arm backswing with the club pointed almost straight up in the air, their body sliding backward and looking like a ballerina coming up on the toes of their left foot; their downswing then starts with the forward slide while attempting to get the left heel back down all the while keeping their arms stiff and swiping at the ball pushing a worm burner dead right travelling maybe 50yds. Have I gotten their swing pretty spot on?
4. Every time the carts stop, conversations begin regarding absolutely nothing relevant about golf, or even life in general.
5. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Ambassadors treat players with the utmost respect and make suggestions in the most gentlest way and people will postpone getting that after round drink to complain to the golf shop about how disrespectful the ambassadors were to them.

A large % of the guys that cut the pins probably never play the game.

If you enjoy golf on unkempt courses, that is good for you. If you don't mind waiting 10 minutes on each tee because of slow play, more power to you. I know many people who have no problem playing tennis with old tennis balls. But better tennis players open a new can every time they step onto the court. It makes for a better experience for the better player. I think this is the same for golf, or for any sport. To each his own.

"A lot of play" does not excuse lack of respect for the course and other players. Pitch marks on the greens, and footprints in bunkers have nothing to do with the number of players. It has everything to do with inconsiderate and disrespectful players. And it doesn't take a professional caretaker on a PGA played course to take a little interest in understanding the proper pin placements. I blame the manager for not making sure his/her employees understand the basics of pin placement, cutting holes, and setting tees.

So true.

Wow! What a response ,thank you all for your comments on my job's importance. You go out in the dark each morning attempting to find ways to make the course both challenging and fun and sometimes it feels like nobody notices. The thought and preparation that we put in trying to insure that each of us has a memorable golfing experience goes on most of the night and day.
First let me apologize to this fellow villager and his group for my shortcomings of not making his day more relaxing and fun. Just a couple of weeks back we were fighting to keep these greens playable! We were coming n 2,3 4 in the am spraying ,watering,aerating the greens to rid them of black spots,bare spots, due to the short days, cold nights and extreme amount of play. Here in the villages we never have an off day. We have about 200 to 400 golfers,up 800 steps waliking the greens and it's extremely challenging to keep the conditions near perfect. Take up north ,our course was closed on Mondays ,winter and early spring and fall so we could do all our catch up maintenance. Not here we have more play than any other place in the world! Everyday we rotate the holes front ,middle, back. We move the pins left to right. Since we were struggling to keep the greens playable I was moving the holes to side positions so to relieve the large portion of the greens so they could return to the wonderful condition they are in today. I do love a challenge when I golf but will take into consideration some folks need for relaxation. We do try and get the feel of for the course,what was the intent of the designer? Place the pins to the side of a trap, front or back? Water hazards place the pin to the front near the hazard or take it out of play.? These are thoughts that cross my mind at 5am in the dark moving from green to green. We are advised to take 2 large steps from the fringe for hole placement and we are advised not to place holes on an extreme slope. Pictures are posted in the office as to not place holes in areas of unfair placement positions. For instance #9 on escambia we are not to place the hole in the center of the green in the middle the slope ,same for volusia #1. We do have young folks and persons working unfamiliar with the beautiful game of golf who are learning so please try to be understanding. I golf as many different courses here and must bite my lip when I see a hole cut short,pin unable to place in the hole,or tee markers sticking out of the ground,but I look into the big bright beautiful sky anf thank my lucky stars I still have the health and fortunate luck to be here!
We have the busiest hard working golf superintendents in the world who get little time off work night and day so we all can have the most memorable ,challenging fun day of this great game of golf.
Again my apologies to this fellow villager and his group. I will make every attempt to keep all your comments with me as I arise at 4am to make all your days a pleasurable day of golf!

:024: Thanks for this perspective.

You sound like you're not enjoying your job anymore.

First let me say that I do indeed very much appreciate the dedicated and hard work that the ground crews perform over the night time hours. Considering the over 10 to 12 thousand rounds played each day during the top season, the courses are in marvelous shape and I want to thank each and every one involved.

I would never have started this thread except that that day on Escambia made me realize that maybe a discussion might be helpful. Each season I see 1 or 2 poorly placed pins every once in a while. Once, 5 or 6 years ago I was putting on the 4th hole at Bogart. The hole was 3/4ths of the way up the steep slope towards the right. I putted about 12 feet up to the hole 4 or 5 times with the ball missing the hole and rolling back down to me. My fellow players were all laughing, as was I. How could one not laugh? However, when there are 8 of 9 pins such as that, I think concern should be voiced.

Today, on Volusia, all the pins were in good places. Some were tougher than others and the pin on 9 was particularly challenging but fair. 2 of us missed our putts because of deceptive reads which makes for a good and fair challenge. We were both amazed by the two different breaks but not upset.

Once again, thank you to the ground crews. You are unsung heroes. :BigApplause:

Obvious that a majority of the crew that makes the pin placements and cuts the hole are not trained well.

Clearly evident.

Where is there unkept course in the villages? Millions of dollars spent to keep them up! If they are unkept then maybe we don't need no more?

Played Mallory today; all the pins were fair placements on the FRESHLY SANDED GREENS. The upside to the sand was, after numerous groups had gone thru, your could see the lines in the sand showing the track to the pins. Let's face it, these ground crews do the best they can in the short allotted time they have everyday and these courses rarely have a break in the amount of play they have. With the rain we've been getting, the courses are really starting to green up; irrigated water can only help so much, but there's nothing as beneficial as good rain.

I catch myself sometimes doing what everyone does, going flag hunting, and I've found that I've actually started scoring better by firing at the center and trusting the flatstick to get me to those close to the edge pins.