Baloney, do you think 16 million vegetarian/vegans choose the diet lifestyle for only health reasons?

Many if not most don't eat meat due to the rampant abuse of animals and environmental devastation.
The animals slaughtered for food are extremely intelligent and sensitive creatures, and the way in which we treat them, regardless of whether the meat is factory farmed, free range or organic, is abhorrently cruel, those actions cause animals immense emotional pain and suffering.

Wonder how many would continue eating animals if they saw the slaughter houses first hand, it isn't pretty or appetizing.

Village PL & myself are not forcing our views on anyone, nor are we forcing anyone to read this info.

Tied of hearing it as a defense by some readers, if you want to get off many meds like BP, cholesterol eliminate type 2 diabetes etc (and leave the side effects behind) loose weight have more energy you may want to look at the benefits, Google it. :024:

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So does this mean you own no leather products?

Sorry. But Google does not qualify as an acceptable medical source. Please provide (as VPL would say) the links. And by the way, cattle are hardly "intelligent" animals. I don't know where you get your information. I know, you think lobsters scream when they are put in boiling water. So I say Baloney to you.

Hmmmn. I have to jump in here for a moment. If you can open your mind and not simply judge superiority by human IQ tests, different species are superior in different ways. However, all mammals are sentient creatures. If you think they don't feel fear or feel pain or feel loss, well, you need to do some research. As far as taking responsibility for your decisions, I knew a man who decided if he was going to eat meat, he needed to know he he could deal with the actual killing of the animal. He went out and shot a deer. He cried. Then he did eat the meat. Not long after, though, he became a full time vegetarian. It would be interesting to see how people would react if they went to a slaughter house and watched or needed to actually kill the animal they were going to eat. We all do what we feel we are morally justified to do. It is just sometimes, our own "appetites" get in the way of honest decision making.

Fried Baloney with Velveeta cheese on toast.
This tread has made me hungry.
I know what I am having for supper.

Velveeta...there is a whole other thread !

7,000 animals?
 

If you were directing the above post to me, I understand. I was addressing the intelligence of a cow. Not the ability of the animal to feel or sense - these are distinct physiological responses. The animals and fish whose flesh I eat are of low intelligence - not like primates, or whales. My undergrad degrees were in physiology and zoology so I have a well developed sense of what I am doing where my food sources are involved.

Nicely said :bigbow:

I am not sold that low intelligence necessarily is the qualifier for whether it gives you permission to eat another species. It doesn't make them lesser beings. It makes them different. I consider that humans are just one of many species on the earth - superior in many ways like IQ- not so in others. And, interestingly, we are very flawed considering our superior "intelligence".

With your extensive education, I assume you recognize that mammals e.g. dogs, cats, horses, pigs, etc. feel not only physical pain but experience emotion, stress, fear, etc.

BTW: I don't begrudge anyone their choices.

You claim you want to save billions of animals, Jimbo, but you keep coming back to the health benefits?

///.

And I certainly don't begrudge you your choices either. As humans I relish our ability to converse and discuss our differences.

Now 7001 animals and counting.

Where's the thumbs up button?

Thank you dbussone. This was a very pleasant exchange of ideas. See everyone? It can be done without slapping anyone around.

For what it's worth, and I'm sure not very much, I wholeheartedly agree with Jimbo, VPL, and shcisamax.

From my personal experience watching my parents slowly decline down a painful simultaneous path toward death (retired physician, nurse) I began to wonder if this was my inevitable future? I did a voluminous amount of reading searching for salvation or at least a course correction, and finally decided that the weight of SCIENTIFIC evidence was simply overwhelming in favor of a plant-based diet if I wanted to alter my destiny. If you're curious, my top three reading picks are:

The China Study by T. Colin Campbell (in GREAT scientific detail lays out the studies that show what the healthiest populations eat and what the unhealthiest populations eat, why the standard american diet "promotes" many types of cancer and how many diseases previously thought due to genetics are due to nutritional choices)

Whole by Campbell (also) (explains WHY you don't know what you don't know! Will definitely make you reconsider vitamin supplements!)

Super Immunity by Joel Fuhrman (mostly interesting, IMO, for the importance of intestinal health/bacteria to your overall health)


Previously, I'd consider myself very "mainstream" educated on nutrition and fairly strictly following the US FDA guidelines of limited red meat consumption, organic or free-range chicken and turkey, some wild salmon, and limited eggs and saturated fat. In short, I THOUGHT I ate pretty healthfully.

Boy was I wrong! When you had a question in life and your parents lacked the answer, someone (usually a wise uncle) chimed in with the adage, "Follow the money!" Wow was that ever great advice in the search for nutritional truth. There is a ton of money spreading an incredulous amount of bad information to keep the American consumer purchasing a lot of profitable, but unhealthy "food".

I learned I was NOT eating very optimally at all. I enjoy food, but I would not say I was previously a "foodie" like my wife who writes a food blog and is a paid reviewer, is a food photographer, and derives a GREAT amount of enjoyment from life via food. (Caveat, she's 5'4, 125 lbs) I mention these personal things only so the reader understands that food is enjoyed, a passion, but is not out of balance in our lives. It is still sustenance and that is important to keep in mind.

There is so much money intentionally being spent to obfuscate the health value or detriment of everything you consume that your mind would literally spin. Unfortunately, we all rely on the government appointed body (the FDA) tasked with ensuring and regulating our food supply for optimal nutrition and health to keep us healthy and safe and that trust is ABSOLUTELY MISPLACED!

At this point, I'm sure I have a dozen or more detractors ready to attack me as they have the previous posters, but I'm going to say that I will post my thoughts, but I'm exhausted attempting to convince the non-believers. Heart disease is the #1 KILLER in the United States, but is VIRTUALLY UNHEARD OF in 75% OF THE PLANET! You heard me, 75% of the human race suffers essentially NO heart disease! How can that possibly be? If you wish to learn, begin to become nutritionally literate and start with the books above. You'll find many more, but realize there are $BILLIONS at stake to convince you to continue consuming the standard american diet.

Finally, I'm at peace with the fact that many are "set in their ways", are healthy, or "healthy-enough", and don't wish to change their diet. I get it. My father is dying from a multitude of infirmities and I simply don't want to follow his path to his eventual grave. If I can alter my path and maintain a healthier life longer than my dad did, then I'm ahead of all the naysayers that say it's all pre-ordained.

Oh, and my foodie wife is now also vegan as well as my daughter. Our son is much healthier in his diet, but still only about half-way there. We're all individuals and we all thankfully have free choice, especially including our food choices! On this positive note, I think we can all agree.

Bon Appetit!

That was an excellent presentation of your view. Very logical and well documented. Your reasons are excellent and I respect them.

Most people have evaluated these choices and many people put very little effort into the selection and preparation of their food or read much on what is healthy.

When someone humanizes all animals then I feel that is outside of rational behavior. When someone does not research enough that they must take nutritional supplements to stay healthy, I question their food choices. There is no question that exercise and food choices improve optimum heart health. There is also a genetic factor too. My cholesterol is wonderful without statin's and I don't deserve it if you look at my fat intake. I think some of the worlds populations have some differing group genetics as well as some are working much harder physically than most people in this country which most likely would change their cardiac health.

I think I know how to raise responsible children. I think I know how to get along with most people. I think I understand my values, yet adjust them periodically. We all have our values and they are different for each of us.

Pushing them on other people can help other people or it can cause wars. But the discussion of nutrition is valuable. It is the HARPING of some that pushes my buttons.

You did not PUSH, B767drv. You presented your views, and very well too.

When we were renting a home here, waiting for this home to build, our landlords left ONE book, The China Study. I read it.

7,000 animals?
 

Agree.

I don't even disagree with much of what is said about the benefits of eating vegetables. It is the harping and condescending attitude of some toward those who don't chose to fully adopt the "correct" views that pushes mine.

In my opinion, your statements are disingenuous; you don't have to be "militant" because the food industry does all the promotional work for you.

I don't think you're interested in a serious conversation but I'll at least do my part.

In your opinion, how many days would I have to not eat fish in order to earn the name vegan? 1 day? 2 days? 3 days? More? One week? One month?

I plan to stop eating the occasional 1.2 ounce of salmon and I'd like to know how long it's going to take to become a vegan again.

And you've been known to suggest that others are condescending. Hmmm!

It might help if they would advertise that they have a great vegan meal special-offering. And it might help if they would use the word "healthy" in their ad. It doesn't have to be an ad placed by itself, but in with the rest of their advertized offerings.

What it shouldn't be, in my opinion: No high sodium vegan soy-burgers. No factory-made high sodium products of any kind.

The problem with a restaurant advertising a healthy vegan meal is that it might make their regular meat-eating customers wonder why the other menu items aren't referred to as healthy. Is everything else unhealthy?

According to you, yes!

Evidently, you missed the point of what I was saying.

I agree with part of what several people have said. I don't eat things that walk on four legs, and I rarely eat things made with wheat (maybe twice a month). I don't even eat chicken more than a few times a year. But I've never been a vegan and don't have any plans to go that way. I love eggs and cheese and dairy.

I stopped eating meat because I got tired of digging it out of my teeth, and I don't care all that much for the taste anyway. I'm sorry that animals are killed for food. That's why I spoil my pets. But I don't believe in proselytizing about food. There are too many other things that need fixing in life. Human rights and that sort of thing.

No one ever said there are no healthy meat eaters. It's just that veganism is thought to reduce the risk of acquiring degenerative diseases.

Also, a healthy diet isn't just about whether or not a person eats meat. Both vegans and meat eaters can be unhealthy by consuming lots of junk food.

It's all about reducing risk in the short term and long term too. (Don't forget the long term.)

I'm not posting here to proselytize, only to create awareness.
ie; food for thought

I doubt the readers herein had any idea what the number of animals consumed added upto.

When we go out to eat there is never a comment as to my friends choices, we go out to eat to socialize.


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Sadly, we attended the funeral of a good friend 3 months ago. He died from esophageal cancer. He and his wife were thin vegetarians, exercised faithfully, had bright, positive outlooks on life and didn't smoke. He felt betrayed by the hype that led him to that lifestyle and regretted his sacrifices for it.

:a20: Like to know how cooking meat will give it more energy than uncooked.

Sorry to learn of your loss, but there are so many reasons that illnesses can arise - all we can do is our best to limit them, and it sounds as though he did that, but lost out on the roll of the dice.

Conversely, the media always ask those alive at 110 what they attribute for long life, and it usually includes smoking and heavy drinking, which ends up promoting use of same to those who don't understand probabilities.

While it is important to maintain a healthy lifestyle and diet, it is also important to remember that our genetic background plays a much larger role than we may wish to think. My motto is everything in moderation.

Originally Posted by Arctic Fox:
the reason humans have large brains is because our distant ancestors ate cooked meat, which provided much more energy than uncooked meat...



The cooked meat CONTAINS no more energy than the uncooked meat (other than the added heat energy), but cooking it makes it much easier for us to digest it so it PROVIDES us with more energy:

a) we are able to extract more benefit from it; and

b) we use less energy in extracting that benefit.


Thank you for letting me clarify this.

:agree: Everything in moderation.
And people live longer if they have some good, supportive friends.

[emoji106]

Willpower vs. Foods With No Brakes
 

Here's a read I found on moderation, what do you think?

The problem is, moderation works for very few people.

You know this to be true. You’ve tried it countless times. (And if it actually worked for you long-term, you wouldn’t need any more diet advice, would you?)

For those who don’t have a health condition or food sensitivities, you may feel even more pressure (or desire) to “moderate” instead of deprive yourself—but there are perils associated with this dietary concept for you, too.
The biggest problem with moderation is that it relies on willpower. And given what we know about willpower, and the kinds of foods that are tempting us day in and day out, “everything in moderations” is a long-term losing proposition.

The kinds of foods we are attempting to moderate— “foods with no brakes.” These are calorie-dense, carb-dense, nutrient-poor foods designed by food scientists to make you crave them, without any of the nutrition or satiety factors that tells your brain to stop eating them. They rewire pleasure, reward, and emotion circuitry in your brain, creating habit loops that are near impossible to break with sheer willpower. Stress—any kind of stress—makes these cravings and habits stronger. And the kicker? These same foods also mess with hormones like leptin and insulin, creating metabolic imbalances that further promote cravings and hunger such that no amount of willpower can overrule them. (Hormones >willpower.)

The very concept of “moderation” is intangible—so fluffy as to be meaningless. Does it mean you only eat one cookie at a time, or cookies once a week, or just one bite of cookie a few times a day? The truth is, most of us haven’t take the time to map out exactly, specifically what “moderation” means to us. Even if we did, the “moderation” would probably creep when it suited our needs. (It’s easy to justify that second glass of wine when the bottle is open and you hate to waste it.)

We also like to negotiate with ourselves when we’ve set less-than-firm goals… “I’ll have two glasses tonight, but none tomorrow.” But what happens tomorrow? We are creatures of instant gratification, quickly discounting future benefits in favor of immediate payoff—which means tomorrow usually finds us justifying that one glass of wine yet again.:wine: Or one potato chip?

Habit research shows that black-and-white goals—without any room for interpretation, justification, or negotiation—are far easier to meet than squishy goals. “I will eat less sugar,” “I will exercise more,” “Everything in moderation”… all examples of squishy goals with loads of room for us to bend them to our will and desire.

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Everything in moderation - works for me ...and my genetic background. Try it, you might like it.

That is true, but willpower can be strengthened, especially if the "end result" is something which you sincerely want to attain, rather than just think you ought to attain or, worse, have been told you should attain.

I used to like sugar in my coffee but decided to cut down on my sugar intake for health reasons. It didn't take long before coffee without sugar tasted fine to me, and now I can't drink it if someone has put sugar in.

Likewise when cooking: I like to eat meat but have cut back the portion size to about half what I used to serve. A certain weight of meat now makes two meals for me and Mrs Fox rather than one and, since the other half is put away for the next meal, we are not tempted to eat it at this one.

With all due respect Jimbo, not all of us are seeking diet advice.
Some of us are reading this thread for the gay repartee that has ensued. :024:

I don't know why you're calling me Chicken Little, when you are the one claiming that the sky is falling.

Great not offering any !

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