The decline of Christianity
 

It is happening, but it is not too late to turn it around. This site below is full of factual data that breaks down the statistics of the decline:

FACT: Statistics on Religion in America Report -- Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life

More important the site below this paragraph is research based information as to WHY this trend is ongoing.

REASON WHY: Why Is Christianity on the Decline in America? – The Gospel Coalition Blog

Knowing and accepting that it is happening is knowledge. Knowing why is the first step to change our attitude in an effort to reverse the trend. Many actions theists are taking to increase Christianity is the cause of its decline.

Anyway, I am on a quest for knowledge and found these two sites interesting.

Interesting stuff Lou. In addition to the other reasons mentioned in the second article, explaining the loss of church affiliated people, would be what I would describe as "the emporer is wearing no clothes" theory. In the last thirty years or so there have been alarming numbers of clergy who have been involved in very un- Christianlike activities. The seemingly rampant sexual abuse among Catholic priests; the scandals with well known televangelists; the many pastors involved in sexual lliasons with parishioners, often ending in murder or attempted murder; the embezzlement or misuse of church funds; and on and on........ I think many people look at these scandals and ask themselves, "if these are people who purport to have been chosen by God to represent him on earth, how can I trust any of them to tell me the truth about faith and how to live a Godly life"? I have been a Christian my whole life, but I put little faith in the human beings that run organized religion, and rather try to follow Christ's examples of how to live a righteous life.

Yea, I am fighting to identify where I am with this. I am so disillusioned by what I see coming from our church leaders. I do see and I am getting a real warm and fuzzy from this Pope. The widening space between right and left is responsible for many issues surfacing that seem to have no common ground. We need to hear more love, understanding and acceptance from our church leaders and more common ground decisions from our political leaders.

It's really to bad this is happening for centuries the bible or organized Christianity kept the world for the most a good place to be. But now with man wanting it to be his way it is falling apart. I am speaking of the world it's just going to hell. A lady at work said to me one day that satan is a live and doing fine. The reason I feel the decline is so rapid is the battle of good and evil is soon at hand . Again just my opinion.

Christians aren't perfect, just forgiving. Man's place in the Catholic church as GOD's representatives, has been tainted by the few, who have fallen out of grace, by their wrong doings. They ask forgiveness and for the most part, it is given by the masses. Men are human, therefore they are not perfect, and or will always do the right thing by themselves, or the public at large. IMHO

With men this is impossible, with GOD, all things are possible.

We've been warned biblically speaking this was going to happen so we shouldn't be surprised. Jesus said "when I return will I even find faith on the earth?"

Paul wrote to Timothy..."For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth and shall be turned into fables." 2 Tim 4:3-4

Charles Spurgeon the great preacher from the 1800's said the time would come that instead of the Shepherds shepherding the sheep the clowns will be entertaining the goats. Isn't that what we're seeing today?

There is a famine in this land when it comes to the Word of God. We are literally starving to death. Because of it we have no strength.

Are you kidding? Maybe for fellow Christians living in England...

Ask the Native Americans of the Caribbean Islands, of Central and South America, the natives of India, Africa, Australia, Hawaii, etc., about how "good a place" Christians made THEIR lands. I hope you're joking...or woefully lacking in history.

The world has always been going to hell, it's no different now.

Christianity along with most religions are losing influence as more and more questions are being answered through means other than religion. As societies and civilizations learn more, their faith in a deity diminishes.

How many Christians are RINOs, Religious In Name Only? Relativism is the name of the game...over 5000 Christian sects proves that. Picking and choosing what you believe and follow, in my opinion, doesn't cut it. You either go ALL-IN, and follow it ALL...the New and Old Testament, or you don't call yourself a Christian. Jesus was a Jew and followed ALL the Jewish laws...what makes the average Christian think he's exempt?

amen!

[QUOTE=DAWN MARIE;809059]We've been warned biblically speaking this was going to happen so we shouldn't be surprised. Jesus said "when I return will I even find faith on the earth?"

Paul wrote to Timothy..."For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth and shall be turned into fables." 2 Tim 4:3-4

:agree:


It is one thing to proclaim not to be a believer but to try and disparage and mock those that do as some of these posts do goes beyond all understanding.

Many of those that lived and witnessed the miracles Jesus performed still did not believe so it only fulfilling the scriptures that there would be many now.

If one only has faith in the things they can see or prove scientifically they will never be a Christian for it comes from and through Faith.

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Romans 10:17
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Psalm 14:1
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

Isaiah 5:13-15
King James Version (KJV)

14 Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.

15 And the mean man shall be brought down, and the mighty man shall be humbled, and the eyes of the lofty shall be humbled:

Dispute the premise.
 

The title of the thread is The Decline of Christianity.

The Pew Survey provided as the basis for the discussion does not provide data to support the title of the thread.

First, define terms. Does the term "decline" refer to a change on the numbers of individuals who say they are Christians, or does it refer to a shift in the number of professed Christians who have left the basic tenets or dogmas of their particular denominational choice?

If it is the former, the Pew study gives no basis for demonstrating a decline since there are no numerical changes in membership in the denominations from decade to decade to compare, so the "decline" cannot be demonstrated.

Similarly, if it is the latter, the study still does not give a comparison from decade to decade to establish a demonstration of a decline.

There are a couple of significant quotes in the study. One shows that Christian leaders in the northern half of the globe (North America, Europe) feel that Christianity is in (an undefined) decline, while Christian leaders in the southern half of the globe (South America, sub-Saharan Africa) feel Christianity is expanding.

The study also states that over the past century, the number of Catholics around the globe has more than tripled, from an estimated 291 million in 1910 to nearly 1.1 billion as of 2010. And as the population of the earth has increased the increase in Catholics has increased so that in 1910 Catholics comprised close to 50% of the world Christian population and in 2010 they were still close to 50% of the world Christian population.

Unscientific accounts (not in the study) may "show" that the moral decline in the United States might be considered a "decline" in Christianity, but compared to the debauchery of Rome at the time of the birth of Christianity this would be a hard argument to support. We are not yet feeding Christians to hungry lions in our stadiums.

On April 8, 1966, the cover story of Time magazine was "Is God Dead?" based upon the assertion of German philosopher Nietzsche that "God is Dead." In response, cartoonist Walt Kelly, creator of the Pogo possum comic strip, published a single panel filling the full length of the strip, showing a slogan chiseled on a mountainside saying, "GOD IS NOT DEAD --- He is merely unemployed."

This summarizes claims regarding the "decline" of Christianity.

God is in control. The numbers of people professing to be Christians and their behavior and beliefs is in His hands. I'll leave it to Him.

Christianity is personal. "I know whom I have believed, and am convinced that he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him until that day." 2 Timothy 1:12

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Well said, Ed. Your comment is well taken but I think it goes beyond Christianity to all religions. Look at some of these houses of worship throughout the country. Who are they trying to outdo or impress? There are no real estate taxes that they pay and many of them put the Taj Mahal to shame.

The real bottom line is no matter how much someone professes to be a good Christian or anything else, religion has caused more problems in this world than anything else. Yes -- more than anything! Just look what's going on and has been going on throughout history. Sad, but true.

Such a vague generalization. You could make a similar statement that religion has caused more good in this world than anything else.

My own opinion is that likely neither is true. But both are so unquantifiable, who knows.

Incisive and well done, Carl. Thank you for your post.

I think it is more a distrust of any organized religion than a disbelief in God. I agree with Bonanza that organized religions have caused far more problems than solutions.

I recently went to a Bible Conf in CA. The Conf was called "Strange Fire" (www.strangefire.org) and one of the speakers was a Pastor from Africa. He said when you hear about the "Christianization" of Africa DO NOT BELIEVE IT. It's some sort of pseudo Christianity, based on feelings and emotions and NOT on established historical doctrine taken straight from Scripture. This again, goes back to what we've been warned about. It's history repeating itself over again. The longer we wait for the return (think of Moses on Mt Sinai as well) the worse we are becoming.

As far as comparing ourselves to Rome and the debauchery of Roman culture I don't think we have to go very far to see we are practically there. Just read the news. Also, we are killing unborn babies in the womb and the sanctity of life in general isn't what it used to be. Think how far we've fallen since the Puritan days here in our own country. We are continuing the slide downward. Why? Because we have lost faith and the desire to wait for our leader to come back.

yes, and the leaders behind them will have to answer. In the meantime we are instructed to NOT abandon the meeting together. We just hunt harder for a good bible believing church. It's not easy but there are some out there who are still faithful to God's Word. They would be called the remnant.

I read the transcript of Conrad Mbewe's address at the Strange Fire conference, and I did not understand him to say that there was no Christianization of Africa, but rather that there was a competition between traditional Christianity and charismatic Christianity, similar to what the United States experienced a few decades ago.

He was speaking at an anti-charismatic Christianity conference sponsored by Dr. John MacArthur, one of my favorite Bible teachers. (While Dr. MacArthur was visiting my church, he tripped over my outstretched legs and almost fell. I joked with him that if he were injured by tripping over me, I would likely be run out of the church.)

The Pew Study which was the basis for the start of this discussion made no distinction regarding the charismatic movement within the various Christian traditions. There have been charismatics within all of the major denominations, including the Catholics and the Protestant movements.

The dispute between theologians in the United States over the validity of charismatics seeking the "gifts of the spirit" such as speaking in tongues, and those who believe that the granting of such gifts ended in Apostolic times continues to the present, as witnessed by the Strange Fire conference.

I don't see it as a quantifiable factor in the discussion of the alleged "Decline of Christianity" which was the subject of this thread.

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Carl,

Conrad spoke more than once. Did you read all of his transcripts? I remember him saying distinctly not to believe it when we hear about the spread of Christianity in Africa. If I'm correct he said clearly "do not believe it." But yes he also spoke about the competition between one and another as well.

Now I totally understand that to many out there that there is no difference between one movement and another in the so called Christian movement.

I love, love, love John MacArthur. I believe him to be the best expositional preacher since Spurgeon maybe ever!!! We have a beautiful picture of my husband (also a Pastor) and John together. We actually just got it framed for Christmas. Not too many around here know who he is. There were 4,000 people at the conference and I was amazed at his generosity and hospitality to all in the day and age when you see money hungry preachers stealing from their congregations.

I'm having a real hard time getting used to it. I don't like the dark.

First, I abhor abortion and think you make a good point.

However, your reference to how far we've fallen since the Puritan days ignores certain facts in our history. The Puritans arrived in the New England area in 1620. Prior to that time the Jamestown, VA, colony was established in 1607. In 1619 the captain of a Dutch slaver ship exchanged his cargo of African slaves for food at the Jamestown colony. So you see the institution of slavery in our country predates even the Puritans.

And, as more European settlers came to America and the westward expansion developed, the settlers killed native Americans nearly to the point of extinction. Those who survived were relegated to "reservations" where they were neglected and exploited.

Both slave owners and Indian fighters claimed to be Christians, and in fact there was denial by many Christians that the African slaves were actually human beings.

The Civil War began for economic reasons but escalated to become a war to free the slaves. Christians, notably Quakers, were leaders in the abolition movement.

Indians are no longer restricted to reservations. In areas such as Oklahoma and Washington State many tribes participate in great financial wealth that comes from their land. Other tribes are permitted to operate and gain wealth from casinos that non-Indians are prohibited from operating.

In that perspective our culture has not declined, but has improved. No one can argue that an era of non-slavery is not superior to an era of slavery.

This has been more about American history than the alleged decline of Christianity, but the point is that the time of the Puritans was not a golden age to which we should compare modern times.

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Conrad spoke twice. I read the first transcript more thoroughly than the second. My understanding is that since he does not consider charismatic Christianity to be "true" Christianity, then he does not consider the spread of charismatics to be a legitimate measure of Christianity in Africa. Since the Pew study made no distinction that would sort out charismatics, I found it hard to justify a reference to the "decline" of Christianity.

It's a shame that there isn't a local radio station that broadcasts MacArthur's programs.

By the way, the web site link you posted for the Strange Fire conference didn't work. I found it at Media . You can go there and read the transcripts or actually play the videos.

Regards,

Carl

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Some thoughts I want to share especially after reading the many sincere great posts above.

Nothing I can say is either new, earth shattering, nor mine. I've had a rough faith journey and the pendulum of my little life has swung to and fro.

My salvation is not dependent upon brick and mortar churches. Yes, I believe the Christian church which has passed on the faith once received is divine in its non-corporeal sense. However, the ways in which we imperfect and flawed humans have handled our stewardship of the Church is, well, human and not at all praiseworthy. The Roman Catholic church for years harbored low life predatory perverts and moved them from parish to parish because the bishops either didn't care for the flocks or because "We need more priests for the Church, not less." The institution, or "religion" in that sense trumped the essence of faith and morals.

Other ministers have robbed from good honest people and have lived deeply offensive, anti-Christian lives. Charlatans and hypocrites going against the faith and morals once received.

So many mainline Protestant churches have chosen to collapse the First great commandment "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul and with all thy mind." Now it's all about the second and seemingly only great commandment "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself." The second allows the annoying, non trendy, and certainly antiquated Bible strictures to be placed aside. All sorts of new 'theologies' and rites are being shoved at the faithful in the pews.

Examples are all over the place. Solutions are beyond my pay grade I've learned.

People vote with their feet for sure, and that I think affects the institutional religions. My faith is mine, and doesn't depend upon pervert priests, arrogant bishops, agenda driven 'inclusionists,' nor Hollywood, Howard Stern or any of the other usual suspects.

History has had its ups and downs, but it has had its 'ups.' The dark is temporary if it's real at all. There will always be the science driven skeptics and nihilists. There will also always be the Billy Grahams, the Mother Teresas, Dietrich Bonhoeffers, and on and on.

God will decide when the 'end time' is and still hasn't included me in the memo distribution. :)

I will continue to try to be a Christian, and yes, go to my church, and pray and keep in mind Psalm 46……"Be still, and know that I am God."

Thanks for letting me go on and on, but I needed to say these things.

I believe it is a mistake in many cases to go back in time and judge people based on what we know now.

Not too long ago America was fighting Germany and Japan. I recall the war propaganda being displayed on my movie theatre screen Tokyo Joe, etc

I believe it is not a mistake to speak up and tell church elders that hiding sexual abuse is wrong and all those involved or covering for those involved should be booted out of their church.

I also believe that one does not need statistics to recognize that fewer and fewer people remain within a church especially as their wealth grows and unless their is a life altering event they may never return.

I believe around the world and in this country Christians are being physically and/or psychologically /legally/administratively attack . in that we have lost the intent of those Pilgrims who ventured here to be free to practice their faith in the manner of their choosing

I chose to stay general with my comments because the only issue I have here is that I believe there are certain factions within our democracy who would go to any length to change this country to be godless

I go to church, though I don't think it a requirement to be a "good" Christian. I worship God and Jesus the Christ, but do not worship any clergyman or woman, and certainly do not worship a church or a denomination. I have settled on ELCA Lutheran because it is a very inclusive and non-judgemental denomination, and the worship services tend to be positive and uplifting. Not every church I have attended over the years fit those criteria, but I will not elaborate. I agree with some that in some cases churches, denominations, religions and sects can be very devisive, very judgemental, very insular, and very hostile to anyone who believes differently than themselves, and have caused much trouble in the world over the years. I once belonged to a small church whose hierarchy began to attempt to push a specific political agenda. I resigned and let them know exactly why I did so. I think that it is up to God to judge, not humans, and I will leave it up to him/her to do so with some confidence.

“I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ.” Gandhi

Gandhi failed to distinguish between Christians, who are made in the image of God, and Jesus Christ, who was God.

Gandhi was also more of a political activist than a theologian.

Your understanding is correct and you're right... the link didn't work for me either. It was the right link at one point. I didn't read the transcripts because I was there, and I took good notes. So I don't usually go back and read them later. You should really watch the videos. And the guy that amazed me the most besides MacArthur and Joni was a man named Justin Peters. He's coming here to Belleview on the 19-21 to speak. If you're in the area I would greatly encourage you to hear him. He was amazing. His masters and Ph'd is on the Charismatic subject matter. His thesis was on Bennie Hinn. I think he's up and coming. Young guy working closely with MacArthur's organization.

Moody radio plays MacArthur at 7 PM last I knew here in Florida.

Thanks for saying them. But I have to say the dark is not temporary nor is it new. Satan is called the Prince of Darkness in Scripture. Christ spoke about working while the light was still with them because soon the light would be taken out of the world. He is that light. He told us to be lights in a dark world. There's no question this world is spiritually dark and is increasingly getting darker with less willing to be light carriers.

I agree with all of this...actually Fox News just put this out tonight:

"Deaths of Christians at the hands of persecutors is up worldwide. Some 2,123 Christians were killed last year due to their faith, compared to 1,201 in 2012, according to research. More than half of those reported killings occurred in Syria, followed by Nigeria and Pakistan." http://tinyurl.com/mo2hsl2

All of John MacArthur's sermons broadcasted are archived at the link below, for listening online.

Another great teacher of the God's Word is Erwin W. Lutzer of Moody Church in Chicago....program name at the link below is "Running to Win".

Teaching of the Bible in a relevant and applicable way to take home and apply in everyday contemporary life (not a wandering, off-the-cuff theology/theory lesson) is what people are hungry for all their lives (without actually pinpointing that need), and finally many are finding it in Scripture-teaching churches where God's Spirit is trusted to interpret and empower His Word every time it is read and proclaimed. God's Word never fails:

So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth;
It will not return to Me empty without accomplishing what I desire,
And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.
--Isaiah 55:11 (NASB)

Hear audio archives of MacArthur, Lutzer, Swindoll and many Spirit-guided teachers here:

Christian Ministries - Free Online Christian Radio Ministry Broadcasts - OnePlace.com

Living Christian Values
 

When I read Lou's original comments I couldn't help but think about my religious journey. My Mom was very much a Roman Catholic until the day she passed. My Dad not so much.. (There is something about Irish men and the church). As a single fellow I was not much of a church goer... I married a similarly minded lutheran girl we would attend lutheran services occasionally and I would go to Saturday evening Catholic Mass with a friend. When my daughter and son were born we became more active in the lutheran church. Both of my kids are confirmed and go off to lutheran work camp each year and participate in lutheran activities.

As time has passed I have drifted away more and more from the Catholic Church. Too many scandals cover-ups and unchristian-like behavior I am ashamed of the hypocrisy. Our first married Lutheran Pastor in Penn was I highly educated 'hell fire and damnation preacher' I did find him over the top but I thought at least no scandals... A few years later he retired and a nice couple were selected and took over the ministry church (Some in the selection committee even said "God told me to select them") ... Then one day the He in the couple was gone - another nasty scandal. She remains and is a lovely person but I couldn't help but shake my head and question it all. We still attend occasionally and continue support the church's good works.

In the end my thinking is that we all are imperfect beings - Living a spiritual christian-like life is what is important... I want to close my eyes for the last time thinking I did my best and here are my good deeds.

Organized religion...err not so much.

kansasr: Gandhi was the subject in a book excerpted by the Wall Street journal about a year or so ago. It was not exactly flattering . Having said that I agree with Gandhi's quote here because it centers on what is wrong with any organized religion that being humans self inflicted failures egos and struggle for power within an organization

Pope Francis sees this and support him in his efforts to break this power block. I do believe however that he needs a primer on capitalism

THANKS! Good stuff here. Love all the Pastors you mentioned! Check out Justin Peters who works with MacArthur when you get a chance.

Thanks for the information on the link. There is a Christian radio station in Tampa that plays the pastors you list above as well as Ravi Zacharias, David Jeremiah and several others. I miss it.

Speaking of Moody Church, Theologian Dr. Paul Enns, author of The Moody Handbook of Theology (and many others) lives in Tampa and is a friend of mine. After the unexpected passing of his wife he began a study on Heaven and wrote a book which I recommend. Heaven Revealed: What Is It Like? What Will We Do?... And 11 Other Things You've Wondered About is the name of the book.

My favorite book on the subject of Heaven is Heaven by Randy Alcorn. He gives scriptural references for everything he describes about Heaven, AND he assures us that WE WILL HAVE PETS IN HEAVEN. Worth the read.

I've got this book. I've read maybe half of it. It's probably the best book on heaven out there. After those bogus heaven books hit the best seller lists I told a friend who was being sucked into all that stuff the truth and he got mad at me. Very mad. He wrote to Randy Alcorn who gave my friend the same advice (exactly) and the same scripture references I did. It was a hoot because up until that point I was not even familiar with Alcorn and did not have his book. I got it afterwards. Now, my friend (who is in his 70's) emails me all the time when he has questions about theology.

Sounds like we are definitely on the same page... :smiley:

Figuratively and literally.

What insightful comments. I am learning at my age.

QUESTION: Would it be a bad thing if I was in support of Christian values and practiced the teachings while doubting the existence of God, Heaven and Hell? I am such an all or none personality, that it is very difficult for me when I see people claim to be Christian yet do and say things that are so contradictory to my understanding of faith.

EXAMPLE: I believe in an eye for an eye and will not turn the other cheek. For me it is as if the Bible was a living changing document until Jesus inspired the current version I will refer to as the King James Version. Then the morphing of Jewish to Christian and heals dug in. That's it, no more modification or updates. Regardless of how many chosen ones there were in the past, we are now the only path to the light. Could Jesus have been a well thought out conspiracy? I think, portions of the Old Testament, the Islamic Koran and the Bible are the way to believe and they should all be considered doors to an afterlife. :angel:

I see many contradictions with your post. You say you want to take the good Christian values on without God who instructed us to follow them? But yet you say you will NOT turn the other cheek when the opportunity arises? So basically you're saying some of the Christian teaching is ok but not all? How does this fit with your all or none personality? I'm kind of confused. :undecided:

Your whole post here is confusing and I could argue easily each of your points. The OT did not morph into the Christian faith. The whole OT and NT are a consistent statement. The OT is revealed the NT and the NT is hidden in the OT. Quite amazing really. Another way of putting it is..the OT is like a shadow and the NT is the Body manifested out of that shadow.

No... Jesus is a historical figure that has been verified by many witnesses and the Koran and the Bible contradict each other so they cannot both be on the same path to heaven. They can both be wrong..but there's no way they can both be right.

perhaps my observation is incorrect but I detect a tone of not asking but actually telling people how you feel.

I said it in another post on another thread blind faith requires one come to God (Jesus Christ) as a child. Some people simply cannot relinquish such control. I truly envy people who have blind faith because such a surrender seems to empower them more than those who cannot relinquish such control

Perhaps its all imaginary but to quote "If God did not exist then man would have had to invent him"

God (Jesus Christ) real or inventive is a good thing because man has to believe in something greater than himself or his inventions. godless men commit atrocious acts because one or more of the seven sins over take them. Men who claim to do God's work, but do evil, cannot actually believe because if they did they could not and as such are deceivers

I am by nature a naturalist who believes in intelligent design but cannot determine its origins but there is organization and collaboration to this universe as is evidenced all around us and as the commercial says, ïts not nice to fool mother nature" Abortion is one of those meddling and it has had a pronounced effect on our population which ages quickly with a loss of a younger generation to take up the mantle

Sorry, but you need to read my post again I never said the OT morphed into the NT. I said many Jews morphed into Christians.
You did not get my meaning correct on anything you referenced from my post. You did make the intent of my post. That being no kind understanding, just fault with the opinions of others.