Age Restricted Ghettos = Large Public Schools
 

The book "Leisureville" portrays The Villages and other age-restricted retirement communities as "ghettos."

I offer a better example of the term "ghetto":* large public schools.* Large public schools are a great example of an "age restricted ghetto"* - especially our mega-schools, the ones that have 2,000 or 3,000 students - in school districts that value "economies of scale" above a good education and social integration.*

First, in these schools the students are forced to go there.* Most have no choice.* Second, they are all segregated (by age) and herded around like Alcatraz prisoners.* Their primary influences are from among their peers, often in the form of "the laws of the jungle" or in this case, "the laws of the gangs."* There is little influence from older/wiser generations.* And we wonder why we have a whole generation of declining achievement and questionable attitudes?

In contrast, "age-restricted communities" do not fit that definition by any stretch of the imagination, despite whatever Blechman might be smoking.* Residents choose to locate in these communities, often after months or years of analysis.* They have earned the right to make these choices.* They no longer have the young, easily impressionable minds that require the politically correct and beloved "diversity" training that some feel essential for our youth.* Most of us have had 50 to 60 years of diversity training and experience.* And finally, and this is the biggie, we are not children that require adult supervision (although some of us have childlike mood swings - that's a good thing for any age person!)* School aged children would benefit by and require much more adult supervision than they are receiving - the harvest of what we've sown is bearing this out.*

Gen X'ers need to stay out of our face with regard to our lifestyle choices and not blame those over 55 for not remaining in their diverse communities bringing up the kids they are now responsible to raise.*

Maybe the soon to retire "boomers" who have shaped public school policies for the past 20 years will enable others to put quality education above economies of scale.

Re: Age Restricted Ghettos = Large Public Schools
 

http://www.seniorsworldchronicle.com...s-at-play.html

Not sure how serious this author is about retirement communities. This seems more like a point of view piece-- like a Andy Rooney plaint-- rather than serious investigative journalism.

Re: Age Restricted Ghettos = Large Public Schools
 

Quote from the above-referenced article sent by Taltarzac:

"What really rankles [the author of Leisureville], though, is their indifference -- again, in his view -- to the world beyond The Villages."

He wouldn't have that view if he scanned some of our TOTV political threads! ;) ::)

In any event, I certainly didn't mean to get another "Leisureville" thread started...
Large public schools are the real "ghettos."

Re: Age Restricted Ghettos = Large Public Schools
 

Agree with you there about large urban public schools. Except that there too there are people trying to change things from within.

Re: Age Restricted Ghettos = Large Public Schools
 

GF. There are many large public schools that are doing a wonderful job educating kids, and socializing them.

I truly believe that the difficulties that we had not observed before in this world with young people is probably due to the fact that many parents are handing them over at a very young age to someone to take care of them for eight hours a day, five days a week, who does not adore them or would not die for them, or worry about what they say and do all night.

I would opt to have one car and a smallish house again and not use my college education outside my home for the five years it takes to launch a little one. No one thinks twice about giving up four years of productive living to go to college, but then they give birth and hand over a baby to someone that they wouldn't let drive their car.

Just my opinion.

Re: Age Restricted Ghettos = Large Public Schools
 

Are "great" or even "good" 2,500 plus student high schools the norm or the exception? And while the academics may be good, how well are kids socialized who spend 80 or 90% of their waking hours among their peers? That's what I wonder about. It just seems so...what's the word..."socialist" ...to herd that many kids together in a government run program of indoctrination - and with so little adult influence and interaction.

Re: Age Restricted Ghettos = Large Public Schools
 

Yes. Many mega schools are great because the opportunities exist for students to function and thrive in smaller groups. They are great because the teachers are great.

We (being a lot of parents) worked hard when our children went to school in a small "farm school district" called Lakota Local 30 years ago. Now it is a VERY large school district. Our grandchildren go there now and we are still involved, serving on the curriculum committee.

Lakota East High School produces the national award winning Spark magazine, every six weeks. It is a very professional glossy, full color, presentation that does not flinch from topics like immigration and drug use, with an annual budget of 30,000, earned and managed by the students.
(Please google Lakota East Spark.)

The personal interest of the staff is the key to success of large schools. The personal interest of teachers is the key to success of any schools.

Students have a wide variety of activities that they can choose to join. Here is a current list of Clubs, Activities, Organizations, and Sports Teams at Lakota East.

Academic Quiz Team
American Sign Language
Art Club
Baseball-Boys
Basketball-Boys
Basketball-Girls
Bowling
Cheerleading-Basketball
Cheerleading-Competition Squad
Cheerleading-Football
Chess Team
Computer Club
Cross Country
Dance Team
F.I.R.S.T. Robotics Team
Football
Friends of Rachel
Future Educators of America
German Club
GMC Leadership
Golf-Boys
Golf-Girls
Gymnastics
GSA
Hugh O'Brian (HOBY) Leadership
Intramurals
JETS Team
J. Kyle Braid (JKB) Leadership
Junior Class
Junior Classical League-Latin Club
Junior State of America (JSA)
Literary Magazine
Marching Band
Marching Band Auxiliary (Guard)
Mu Alpha Theta-National Math Honor Society
Multicultural Enhancement Club
National Honor Society (NHS)
Peer Counseling
Peer Mediation
Prom Committee
Psychology Club
Radio-WHLS 89.9 FM
Student Activity Committees in Action (SACA)
Science Club
Senior Class Activities
Soccer-Boys
Soccer-Girls
Softball
Sophomore Class Activities
SPARK News Magazine-Journalism
Swimming & Diving
Tennis-Boys
Tennis-Girls
Theater
Track & Field
Under Pressure
Vocal Music Groups
Volleyball-Boys
Volleyball-Girls
Winter Color Guard
Wrestling
Yearbook

I am very proud of this school system as you can see.

Re: Age Restricted Ghettos = Large Public Schools
 

I just finished the book last night. I agree with a couple of the posts but I interpreted some of the authors points differently. One point he made was that "age segregation" ala Sun City & TV seems to cause school bonds to fail at the ballot box. He cites several instances where the seniors actually had their community removed from the county school tax obligation, which in turn caused some of the large school situations gfmucci talked about.

He also says that "age segregation" deprives the younger people in the country from learning from their experienced elders. With all of the new "senior's only" communities being built or in the planning stage, he thinks a lot of experience and knowledge will not be passed on to the generations behind us because young people are not welcome in the community.

My take on the overall book was that he has a real bone to pick with the developers of these new "over 55" communities. He feels that they will eventually leave the residents with huge debt when the developer finally pulls out. There is also the "lemming factor" that says the residents have no say in their local government or rules so they just fall inline and drink the Koolade.

The stories he relates about specific people and situations were funny and sad too. Most of the things he discusses in his interviews have been seen in the paper or talked about for years in the coffee shops. Unfortunately, I think most of them are true.

Take the book with a grain of salt because after all, it's just one man's opinion.

Irishrover

Re: Age Restricted Ghettos = Large Public Schools
 

I have no doubt we can be proud of "the many" mega- public schools. "Many" does not necessary mean "most", and "many" can still be an exception. How many underbelly, illicit, and troublesome associations and activities go on "under the radar" outside of these myriad of activities in these mega schools?

Just as I have no doubt there are many in age restricted communities who do not participate in activities because of infirmities, depression, and just not being the social type. Except in the case of older folk, the great majority of us have been properly socialized after 55 or 65 years of life. In the case of young people, most have not been socialized and have formed anti-social behaviors outside of the established system devoid of adult supervision and influence - that is the rub.

Re: Age Restricted Ghettos = Large Public Schools
 

I agree with Irish and don't agree with you on this one GF. :agree:

We are still very involved with the young people around here. They aren't perfect, but they are damned close to the kind of people their parents were and in some cases their grandparents. Some still sing in the church chior and are Eagle Scouts. Some work hard to get straight A's and cut their grandparents grass. Our neigbors' boys shovel our snow before they go to school and before we get up in the morning. (And won't take money!!) Some neighbor kids aren't kids now, one just passed the bar and the other will be a pediatrician come June.

We still leave our house unlocked in this area of Ohio. I find the kids I know and the kids they know are doin' good. :bigthumbsup:

Re: Age Restricted Ghettos = Large Public Schools
 

You are very fortunate. And I have no doubt that there are some excellent schools, both large and small. Nonetheless, there are recent studies that indicate a number of advantages of smaller schools which usually include such things as...

More adult interaction with and influence on students
More opportunity to participate in the most popular activities, e.g. ability to "make the team."
More small group learning opportunities
Greater likelihood of well-rounded socialization
Less peer pressure
Generally shorter travel distances to school because smaller schools are likely to have smaller school districts than large schools that typically draw from a larger area. Shorter travel distance lead to less travel time and greater opportunity for families to participate in school activities.

Re: Age Restricted Ghettos = Large Public Schools
 

As the liberal but none the less intelligent Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan wrote in 1983: "If an unfriendly foreign power had attempted to impose on America the mediocre educational performance that exists today, we might well have viewed it as an act of war. As it stands, we have allowed this to happen to ourselves."

Re: Age Restricted Ghettos = Large Public Schools
 

Or NOT allowed it to happen. We can complain and criticize or we can remain involved. Praise for things well done is probably more effective than damning something done poorly. We do not feel shy about doing either. We are never too old to help our local school system.

I myself graduated in a class of almost 400 in a public school. My granddaughters class is almost three times that big.

As you can see, this is one of my passions. I have said enough. I care deeply about what happens to the young people in my realm and those that aren't.

I like young people, I can still speak their language and they seem to know mine as well. My teen grandchildren allow us to entertain their groups of friends three or four times a year. They have a diverse bunch of friends, all good eggs with a wonderful sense of humor, and all headed for success.

Re: Age Restricted Ghettos = Large Public Schools
 

"Almost three times as big" is almost 1,200 students.* This is relatively small by standards for many high schools today which average 2,000 to 3,000 students in many areas.

This topic has nothing to do with liking or not liking kids.* It has nothing to do with old people (like myself) remaining involved with schools and kids or not.* I pick the "not" at this stage of my life.* Others like yourself choose to stay involved.* That's great.

This topic has everything to do with responsible parents (yes, it's their turn) getting out of the habit of putting up with impersonal cattle pens that pass for schools for their kids.* And yes, Gracie, I get it.* I have no doubt that there are many exceptions.* But they remain exceptions.

Re: Age Restricted Ghettos = Large Public Schools
 

Re: Age Restricted Ghettos = Large Public Schools
 

What exactly don't I get?* That there are exceptions and you may have experienced them?* Are you suggesting that the cattle barns that pass themselves off as "schools" housing 3,000 plus students is the best environment for a child to spend 80% of his waking hours?* What these are good for is saving tax payers money (economies of scale prevail) and housing the kids while the parents work.

Your previous post indicates that your idea of a "mega school" is a school with enrollment of less than 1,200 kids.* My idea of a "mega school" is an enrollment of 2,000 to 3,000 kids or more.* When you defend the performance of "large schools", what size school are you speaking of?

If your experience and knowledge is based on the "fewer than 1,200 student school" you have little basis to suggest I don't get it.* An opinion just based on narrow personal experience is like visiting a hand full of planets in the universe and coming to the conclusion that they are all alike.

"That's great!" Yes. That was a sincere statement. It is a great thing when people do what they love doing and what they love doing is helpful to others.

Re: Age Restricted Ghettos = Large Public Schools
 

Read where I say that was a CLASS of 900, a senior class, not four years enrollment. There are five high schools of that size within 20 miles of my house and they are all doing a good job. Lakota East, Lakota West. Mason, Princeton and Fairfield. They all pay their teachers well and keep them a long time. They require contining education for their staff and most have post graduate degrees. But they can't require the dedication that I personally have observed.

I am not suggesting a cattle barn is a place for anyone.

What mega schools are you talking about? Where are they? Do you base this on personal experience? Do you have children or grandchildren who have experienced this first hand?

Here is a link to an article written in 2001 that suggests smaller schools are more effective for poor and minority students, but affluent students do better in larger schools.http://www.wested.org/online_pubs/po-01-03.pdf

Both poor, minority, affluent and majority students are children, kids, important human beings, and they all have a right to the education that is best for them.

Re: Age Restricted Ghettos = Large Public Schools
 

My wife had been in a variety of schools, including a 3500 student high school - her office was adjacent to school security where offenders were processed. There were nightmare scenarios. And this was not a ghetto school - it was a N. Virginia suburb school. I have known several school planners in my profession. I am a student of human behavior.

Thanks for linking to a great article. I would presume upper middle class students would tend to have more involved parents and kids with better self-esteem prior to entering a mega-sized school. Consequently they are better able to cope with the mass of same-aged peers in their socialization process.

But let's ask ourselves: What socio-economic class of students do MOST public schools serve? Affluent, upper middle class? Absolutely not. They serve primarily lower through middle class students.

Just by definition, then, the great majority of students in this nation range from lower through middle class. By deduction, therefore, smaller schools would be best for the majority of public school students.

It is a reasonable premise that a smaller scale school environment with a greater adult to student ratio, and less "non-directed" peer pressure among students would provide a better learning environment as well as a better socialization process for the majority of students. Unfortunately, the inertia of most modern school systems and the penny wise/pound foolish attitudes of many school constituents places cost savings and economies of scale ahead of education.

Re: Age Restricted Ghettos = Large Public Schools
 

My youngest son graduated in a CLASS of 850 (total of the four classes was near 4000).

The physical plant of the school is one of the best in the SF Bay Area - I have had visiting parents from out of area schools comment that the school looks more like a JC than a HS.

The available activities are probably nearly what Gracie mentioned at her local school.

The Band and Color Guard, 300 strong with 100 parent chaperons, participated in the New York Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade in 1999. The 400 stayed in New York for two weeks and did all the tourist things. Total cost was nearly $250K raised thru car washes, concerts, etc (and our city is basically a blue collar kinda place). They were in the 2003 Rose Bowl Parade, in 2005 the Edinburgh Scotland Easter Festival and this year they are going to the Olympics in China!

The Forensics Speech and Debate team is 5 times California State Champions and currently National Champions for the past three years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Logan_High_School

Re: Age Restricted Ghettos = Large Public Schools
 

I agree that there certainly are mega-sized schools around the country that have great facilities and programs.* And I will bet a Buffalo carrot that 9 out of 10 of these great, large schools are populated by upper middle income folk.* One of my daughters attended a high school in a suburb west of St. Louis.* The school facilitities, grounds, and programs were fantastic.* The main entranceway to the main building had a three story atrium with fountains and waterfalls. My daughter even participated in a Japanese exchange program while there and took Japanese.* She loved it.* That school drew from an area where the average price of homes was $300,000.* For the St. Louis area in the late 80's that was affluent.* The great majority of schools don't have the blessing of that kind of demographic.

Re: Age Restricted Ghettos = Large Public Schools
 

GF.

As long as there is breath left in my body, I will try to use what I have been given to correct that situation in any way I can. Sometimes all I can do, or any of us can do who are interested in better public education is to go to the local school and read to the kids, which I intend to do when we come to TV.

Sometimes we can do more. That is up to each of us.

I have been told by the rep who worked with us on our new home in TV, whose children attend the local public school, (a charter school) that it is an excellent school and her three are getting a great education and having a good start.

I am so pleased to hear that.

NOW I am done with this subject.

Re: Age Restricted Ghettos = Large Public Schools
 

Me too!!


Maybe. ;)*

Except one last (or next to the last) question.* Is the charter school ONLY for kids of parents who work in TV?* What is the criteria for attending?

Re: Age Restricted Ghettos = Large Public Schools
 

gf,

I really do not want to get in this one, but I cannot keep my mouth shut (fingers still) so I am going to say this and then I am going to runlikehell.

That statement from you I quoted herein -- I absolutely agree.

And when kids have little, or nothing, at home, maybe their public school classes should be cut in half and cut in half again. -- Talk about one heck of a return on an investment.

Waterfalls and fountains? :barf:

And, let me guess. Across town the only water that was flowing was coming in through a hole in the roof.

-just could not stay out of it. But I will speak of it no more.

Boomer

Re: Age Restricted Ghettos = Large Public Schools
 

GF,

This was in another thread, but, here's the answer on Villages charter school enrollment criteria:

Unlike traditional county schools, our enrollment criteria are based upon one of the parents/guardians/ place of employment rather than geographic address of their home.

Qualifying Employment

Employment is verified on each new applicant, and will be verified on a quarterly basis for all enrolled students.

Category I - Direct employee of The Villages

Category II -Employee of a Direct Sub-Contractor of The Villages. Employee must receive a W-2 form from the sub-contractor. Sub-Contractor's who are paid by residents or businesses of The Villages do not qualify. Sub-Contractor's who do not have a direct contract with The Villages do not qualify.

Category III-Employee of a business on Villages Property.

Please call the Enrollment Office (352-259-2350) to determine if a business is qualified for enrollment.

Parents who work full-time (40 hours per week) are given priority over parents who work part-time (less than 40 hours per week).

Re: Age Restricted Ghettos = Large Public Schools
 

This was literally true of some "in-City" schools.* Within the City of St. Louis, the schools were so bad (back then - not sure if things have changed) that only childless couples and the poor lived in "the City" so as not to subject kids to that school district.* All others who had any resources sought the suburban school districts, and only the most affluent areas had really good ones.*

And the City of St. Louis is not at all the exception among large cities. This again leads me to believe the only really good mega-schools are the ones with upper middle class constituents which are a small percentage of the total public schools.

Re: Age Restricted Ghettos = Large Public Schools
 

I've dealt with huge high schools and small ones. I attended a high school of 5,000 students and got enough of a quality education to qualify for a free college education which was outstanding AND which served 8,000 full-time students (plus thousands of part-timers). At one time I worked for a centralized cooperative educational system that brought small numbers of students from small districts together to form larger classes and settings in order to provide more comprehensive services.

IMHO, it's not the size of the school that's as much of an issue as social factors. I absolutely agree with the quote from Daniel Patrick Moynihan ("If an unfriendly foreign power had attempted to impose on America the mediocre educational performance that exists today, we might well have viewed it as an act of war. As it stands, we have allowed this to happen to ourselves"), who besides being the senator from New York also devoted a considerable portion of his life to education. And that quote was a quarter century ago; does anything believe that things have improved since then?

I might get 'yelled at' for saying this, and I know I'm generalizing, but I believe that the major issue in no matter what size schoo--large or small--is that students come unprepared to learn, parental support of their kids AND of their kids' schools is absent, and even worse, in a society that has grown increasingly hostile and belligerent in many ways, too many parents are not responsible when it comes to discipline (and I don't mean punishment when I say discipline...). When I was in school, if I did something that resulted in my being taken to task, you can bet that when I got home I'd be taken to task again.

Gone are the days.... I have a close friend who says that the only good thing about the 'good old days' is that they're gone. I don't agree; there was a lot of good in those good old days!

Re: Age Restricted Ghettos = Large Public Schools
 

I might get 'yelled at' for saying this, and I know I'm generalizing, but I believe that the major issue in no matter what size schoo--large or small--is that students come unprepared to learn, parental support of their kids AND of their kids' schools is absent, and even worse, in a society that has grown increasingly hostile and belligerent in many ways, too many parents are not responsible when it comes to discipline (and I don't mean punishment when I say discipline...). When I was in school, if I did something that resulted in my being taken to task, you can bet that when I got home I'd be taken to task again.

Gone are the days.... I have a close friend who says that the only good thing about the 'good old days' is that they're gone. I don't agree; there was a lot of good in those good old days!
[/quote]


Good for you Sidney Lanier, your education is obvious!! I agree whole heartedly with your views and I am so fortunate that my children raised their children the way they were raised and the way we were raised. My dad was one of nine children whose parents came from Bavaria for a better life. I am proud to say that the descendants of those nine have never been in trouble with the law and all have raised children and grandchildren who are good solid citizens. It is hard work being a good parent, but the rewards are wonderful. People tell you how "lucky" you are!

Re: Age Restricted Ghettos = Large Public Schools
 

Luck may be a small piece of it; the rest is parental and societal responsibility. We old coots can look back and see (and in some cases cringe) at the changes, and there is little we can do about it at this point when it comes to future generations....

Re: Age Restricted Ghettos = Large Public Schools
 

As anyone who has read my postings on this thread can see, it is intensely important in my values to support the youth of the future and their education. It is very easy to support ones grandchildren and last night we attended our fourth awards banquet for the Spark, a 78 page full color glossy news magazine produced every six weeks by the Lakota East High School Journalism Department. It has won its sixth National School Publications Association Pacemaker Award in ten years. It is given to the top student publications in the country and is often called the Pulitzer Prize of student publications. The Spark gets no monetary support from the school system, and raises and disperses the $37.000 plus budjet by itself. Probably because of that, the school system allows it to handle intense subjects. (Diversity, immigration, depression, drugs etc.)

The main reason that this publication is successful is obvious. We ate dinner, We. being an estimated 400 plus kids and their family members, who paid for their own meal, and then we sat for five and one half hours while the advisor, teacher, Dean Hume gave out awards. He presented an award to each person in the entire program and without notes, he talked about each one, and it was obvious he knew each one, and he praised them personally. He knew about their life outside Spark, their other awards, their enthusiasms and yes sometimes he just went on about their being quiet and sweet and diligent. I know that each kid believed in his or her heart that they were his favorite.

The superintendent of schools was there and many of the principals. Lakota graduates almost 800 students from this high school next Saturday. (There are two, the same size in the district.) Yes it is an affluent school district, but how does an area get affluent? Usually most people living in the school district do not inherit money, but work for it.

I was proud of our granddaughter, the managing editor, but personally know that she has worked at the Spark lab late into the night each week it goes to press and on most weekends too.

I was just plain proud and happy last night. Proud of the fledgling farm school district that we moved into 30 some years ago, proud of the parents and grandparents who worked hard to make it better.

There is a lot good with a lot of large Public Schools.

Thank you for listening.

Please google Lakota East Spark.

Re: Age Restricted Ghettos = Large Public Schools
 

Gracie, that was very moving. Congratulations to your granddaughter, and thank you for sharing!