Glass enclosed lanai analysis
 

Well since we’ve been here we had no interest in enclosing the Lanai, but recently changed our mind.

Been reading several threads here and thought I would post my opinion and finding of my research in this type of renovation.

Those that know my posts know I’m a big advocate of solar and a handy DIY “do it your self’r”.

Two weeks ago CVS came over showed the rep what I wanted, knew little about construction techniques, they said too complicated the way I wanted it done???? I guessed I asked too many questions. Like what kind of glass do you offer, what the specs.

He had a total miss understanding of the building code which I learned after speaking with the inspector in person at the building department later on.
For instance if you want to remove the slider you have to raise the floor, not true in most cases. I needed permits’ and inspections costing $1500-2,000, building dept said $107.

Next Custom windows, they had an interesting way of quoting, details didn’t matter they took rough measurements threw out a number of $22,000….ouch, asked how they figured that didn’t get a straight answer, so I said that figure means you’re charging $75 a sq ft for the windows (they did know a little about glass I’ll give them that) but they said if I didn’t want aluminum that’s what wood frames cost. So what does aluminum cost ?$10,000, notice the big round dollar quotes here.

One thing I’ll explain there are two rules in closing in the Lanai 1 don’t use aluminum, 2 read rule one!

Aluminum acts as heat sink by that I mean in the cold weather it transmits the cold temp indoors, just put your hand on it, it’s like hanging ice cubes in the room you’re try keep warm. In the warmer season esp summer it gets very hot almost can’t touch it. So it heats the space.

If you have heat and A/C you compensate by using more energy, if it’s not conditioned space you don’t use it.

To avoid this you should use wood or wood encased in pvc or vinyl, you can feel the difference in surface temps big time.

Next is the glass tempered has nothing to with your comfort, it’s only for safety and required by code if the glass panel in greater than 9 sq ft, none of the contractors knew that size requirement, they said that only if the glass in near the floor, incorrect. The types of glass I believe (and several engineers at 3 glass manufactures I spoke with) is the best in this zone are two low-e versions, not just Low-e, there are about a dozen types some don’t help here, the primary one on the market in the US is Low-e 366, it will keep heat in during the cold temps and heat out when it’s hot.

If you’re not sure what you have look at the glass it stamped in one of the corners. The other version that came on the market since 366 now is 340. The 340 will work better blocking heat out on south and especially west facing windows, east is fine with 366, south is a tossup either will do great.
I plan on using 366 east & south 340 on the west to block that afternoon sun when it gets hot.
If your lanai faces north or east 366 will be good, if the long side faces west it needs 340.

So those types of glass with wood frames will give you the most comfort. In fact if you face south or near to it you will heat the lanai slab heating the concrete and with sliders open add heat into your home.

Also spoke to Elite, knows about glass but….was hard to get specifics, didn’t get a warm fuzzy feeling never gave a quote.
Terry siding aluminum they only do aluminum, you know my opinion there if you don’t care about what I said he does good work around here on vinyl siding etc.

I made a decision after wasting my time with contractors here to again take on a project myself. :shrug:

Costs about $400 for an architect to draw up plans tomorrow & $100 for the permit, the solar glass mentioned above costs about $2200, I’ll make the wood frames about $500 in wood plus my time, my target is less then $4000 with other items insulation etc. Our lanai is about 1000' but only closing in the part which is 22' X 14 x 12 90" high for the glass.
Two french doors one at each end, so we still have plenty of screened lanai left.

I realize a business has overhead but over $22,000 for the similar thing….

Last point I visited several neighbors that had enclosed theirs, it was late in the afternoon their rooms was very warm facing S SW too warm to be comfortable, they all had shades on all windows and one was open they had double glass but it had no solar coatings.

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Looking forward to the pictures of your project; however, I am surprised you are choosing wood for the window frame in Florida - high maintenance, no?

Wood for it's insulation value, you can buy vinyl covered wood frames also.

I built my pergola out of Fl cypress it's great.

But I will use cypress for the frames, but they will be finished with a bronze color stain on the exterior and left natural interior.

Before the glass is set all the frames will be finished with a marine grade high UV finish 4 coats, should last 5 years out side indefinably on the interior.

If the exterior is re-coated as needed it shouldn't be a big job.
But the look should be great.

My architect is stopping by tomorrow to start the plans. :2excited:


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Is there a reason no one down here uses vinyl windows. We replaced all the single pane in our house in Wa with vinyl windows from Pella. They were not the 366 low e because it's Seattle sun not an issue just reg low e.
I was very surprised that they are still using aluminum windows down here.

Sure, aluminum costs less, also when most folks think of vinyl they don't realize it's really wood with vinyl as thin layer of protective coating.

Jel-wen makes a Premium Atlantic window with low-e 366 for a reasonable cost, they can be shopped at lowes or HD.

Any construction worker worth his salt can install them in day or two.


Any home owner that's handy can get the permits and pop those in easy for super room

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Hard to find in these parts!

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there out there, you can always try Graigs list carefully

CVS Enclosed Lanai
 

Wow. I wish you had attended the CVS dog & pony show I went to last week. The local franchise partner, Phil Dolfi (phil@cvswindows.com) addressed many of the issues you raise and gave much more comforting answers -- or spun them. He might be interested in your feedback re: the tech/sales person who looked at your job. Your findings will help me do a better job of evaluating they're offer when (and if) they respond to my request for an estimate. Many thanks for posting.

based on I what I learned it was likely a spin on the issues,

I think they select their jobs based on how uninformed the the homeowner maybe.

Just don't ask to many questions and write the fat check se ya

An educated consumer is not their preferred customer IMO.


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Jimbo...

When I move to TV, you will be on my list of key resources to meet. As a fellow DIYer i have been impressed by the comments and insights you have shared.

Question... what was the driving factor to enclose the lanai?

Thanks in advance

tks

[/QUOTE]Question... what was the driving factor to enclose the lanai?
[/QUOTE]

Well we originally thought it was waste of $$, then we realized we weren't getting the utilization out of the space we could, but what made us decide was an evening over friends home in warm room with a big view.

That was until he told me what he spent....from the stealer oh i mean dealer.

So the idea got me doing research on window glass, go to Cardinal Glass online that will get you quick education.

Then when I found the cost of materials, it was a no brainier.

Now to those that can't DIY you can get a better job knowing to have it done right way. Ask your neighbors how that like theirs in summer/winter.

I saw one yesterday done with cheap sliders, guess what single pane glass, total waste the stealer told her insulted glass isn't needed in Fl.

By the way you will see many sliders, they have a lot of air leakage, I don't like them also there are more versatile bars blocking your view.

I like, a larger fixed window say 4' wide by 6' high over a 4' by 18" opening awning window for ventilation.

Or I skipped the awning design and put fixed glass there also, if that bottom window is less than 9 sq ft it need not be tempered, which is double the cost.

For ventilation I'm putting a set of french or atrium doors 8 ft tall by 6' (2-3's) leading out to the pool area witch has a screened in pergola on one end and another set matching on the other end leading out in another screened in lanai area.

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Privacy
 

I think that the driving force is privacy. Most of the lots are small and very close neighbors on all sides quite often, even those with golf course lots quite often the cart path is very close. Even as friendly as people are it isn't very private.
The second reason is as the op said the roof and slab are already there and added sq footage seems like a good idea.

The only enclosed lanai we had was our first Florida home and it was enclosed with glass and had heat & Air Conditioner. The Florida sun is HOT in the summer. We enjoyed the cool air!

Have you thought about cooling it?

I had T&D install very heavy duty, sliding glass doors. They are vinyl coated and they are very thick with low e glass. It was the highest quality doors he could get from his supplier. (I had asked for the highest quality vinyl clad windows.) The doors were initially hard to open and close but they have loosened up some now after a year. The reason that they required some force to close was that they form a very tight air seal and they are tightly locked together. We installed a mini split AC system later and the space is very inexpensive to heat and AC. The glass is so well insulated it stops the UV light from fading the furniture. I know this because we used thick, high quality glass in New Hampshire and even after fifteen years our porch furniture never faded. Unbelievable really. Get a quote from T&D. Make sure you request vinyl doors with high quality, double paned low e glass. My lanai installation was the first time they used this high quality vinyl door. They normally used aluminum. T&D said most people down here didn't see the need for spending the extra for the vinyl.

As far as cooling/heating there are permit code considerations that go along with adding duct work or an additional system like a Mitsubishi split system for $3500.

I think if you have solar glass and ventilation you will not be in an area that is hotter than the outdoor temp, and with your living room sliders open some of the A/C will add to cooling as will heating.

Again using the correct glass will heat the slab in turn the space.

Wow, this is great information, I am also a DIYer. I just finished a window seat and cabinets that match the kitchen cabinets. When the cabinet supplier stopped by to drop off the knobs, he offered me a job on the spot, I thanked him but said no. I really appreciate all of the points mentioned in this post. Currently, we do not have the "kissing lanai" concern as we have a road at the back of our house. We may in the future consider glass to cut down on the dust, but that will be after the birdcage.....

Enclosing lanai
 

Custom Windows enclosed my large lanai. They did a wonderful job, right on time, and at the price they quoted. We had another company install the Mitsubishi air/heat/humidifiers. This is now our favorite room in the house! Wish we had done it sooner.

when you added the Mitsubishi unit did you get a new building permit and and make all other changes required?

Met with my architect, he came up with a few ideas, since I'll be fabricating all the windows and doors Fl requires an engineered drawing of the components.

Not a big deal just needs to be done by code.

I was originally going to use cypress for the window frames but learned western red cedar will work much better.

I sourced out the wood, I also sourced out the correct Low-E glass 366 and some windows in 340.

Found a insulation contractor (one DIY I will not do), he can blow in R-30 in the ceiling for $200, that's a good price.

The vinyl siding that will be now in the enclosed area will be replaced with the red cedar.

Although it's called red its not, it's a light brown/tan color.

http://www.bearcreeklumber.com/image...es/wrc_cvg.jpg

The TV cable and elec outlet will be moved up high for a wall or ceiling mounted TV.

When I built my home theatre I already installed several ceiling speakers, so that's done.

The plans will take about two weeks.

T and D expanded and enclosed our lanai. Fabulous job. I admire anyone who has the talent for diy... Those of us who don't choose quality companies to get the job done. We have a mini split for those days when heat or ac makes sense. Otherwise the sliders are open with beautiful cross breezes. Favorite room in the house and the view is spectacular.

quick update - waiting on building plans, since I'm doing custom fabrication it's taking a bit longer for the final approval

Ref to heating and cooling enclosures. Like many, I was under the assumption this added to the taxable value of the home when you did this. At least in Sumter County, I asked the clerk about this at the tax office. She said it os only taxable IF YOU REMOVE your sliders from the living room. otherwise it won't affect tax rate.

Let me know if anyone else has contrary information in Sumter County.

Great post! We desided to go with just zipper shades for sun and weather control. They were over priced but get the ob done nicely!

We had our lanai enclosed to be a year round room. We've been more than happy with the results. We were told that building material (ie windows) has to be different in FL than in other parts of the country due to the heat/humidity. My other half once built homes for a living and used high quality materials and thought we could do the same here. We were told by our contractor many want to use Pella, Anderson etc but they won't be happy in the long run. Our windows are metal sliders and they've worked well so far.

We were told the same thing so we went ahead and enclosed the lanai (raised the floor but did not remove sliders). It added 500 sq ft to our home -- all under heat and air so it counts as home square footage for resale. T&D did the work and it is fabulous!!! Could not have spent our money any more wisely. We get to enjoy the space, with views, year-round and we added value to our home. A win-win situation!

Thanks so much for taking the time to educate us on the proper way to do it.I plan to do it some day. Not surprisesd by high quote, always get 3, contractors think all retirees have bags of money to spend,so they want as much of it they can get. Gotta be smart ,not a sucker. They laugh all the way to the bank. My neighbor found out the hard way after paying 3 times what he should of for concrete work.

Not really the reason. all windows made by all the big & small name manufacturers must have a Fl product code approved by the state.
It is for hurricane resistance ie; wind not heat/humidly.

metal loses heat in the winter gains heat in the summer, you may think they work well but if built out of wood or fiberglass they would work significantly better. that's a fact. :read:

The contractors around here use alum because of speed and high profit, not because their better.

I'm reasonably sure once you add heat-a/c, that space is considered habitable space. Taxes go up

There are several levels of improvement to a lanai, the building dept has a hand out sheet

Did your contractor tell you why pella or Anderson windows would not make people happy in the long run?

I had a contractor in today to do an estimate.
On the subject of tax or not. He said if it is air conditioned/heated it is considered living space and taxable.
Enclosing with no HVAC is not taxable.
If you are going to air condition/heat, the floor of the lanai must be raised to the same level as the main house (called capping).

That contractor is totally wrong, he is clueless as to the building code.

If he doesn't know the code he likely doesn't know how to build.

Run from that guy.

One of the ones I talked to said the same thing, I checked he was wrong also.

They are trying to up the quote with a lie :crap2:

the floor issue has to do with termites believe it or not, as long as the edge of the lanai slab is visible and 99% are, no need to raise the floor.
In the rare case where it is below grade you just regrade to expose the slab.
this is done for termite inspection. That info is from the the head of planning

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how is having that room a step down any different than a sunken living room?

I agree it is the heat and air that makes it livable space not the level of the floor; however, I don't understand why so many people get hung up on this when the additional tax would be minimal compared to the enjoyment that you would receive.

Well another project needed to get done so a short delay.

All permits in place, wood is ordered for window frames, atrium doors being built, roof extension done, fire place done.

should be done soon

window frames & types
 

Most of the window companies offer Aluminum framed windows.

they are truly a bad choice

Aluminum frames cannot insulate as well as vinyl, wood, or fiberglass frames.
its very conductive material.

Aluminum conducts heat better than any other building material. And that’s very bad for the performance of the window, even if the frame profile is simple and compact.

aluminum frames can easily become cold in winter and hot in summer creating a thermal bridge

vinyl, fiberglass or wood frames are far better choices

So why don't the contractors offer that option, it takes more skilled workmanship to install them and vinyl, fiberglass or wood costs 10-15% more so to keep their price quote lower they offer aluminum.

Also aluminum is quick to install the frame is simple square cuts low skill requirements to install.

They also push sliders as a good option, it will allow you to open up the lanai when it's hot. But that at most is 50% open. What about air leakage when its cool or cold, sliders are one of the worst.

Also think about how many vertical window frame bars block your view when open or closed ... not so nice.

http://ffden-2.phys.uaf.edu/212_spri...iagrams/D5.JPG

A much better choice is a fixed window (picture ) with an awning window above or below or both

these seal very well and are available at HD or Lowes, in energy efficient frames with Low e 366 glass. about $300.

http://www.abouttimeglass.com/awningWindowL.jpg

that will give you all the ventilation and not block your view as much as sliders for sure.


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Had a conversation with the tax appraiser guy for Sumter County. We had our Lanai enclosed and the floor raised and tiled. We did not have heat or AC installed but asked the question regarding tax increases if I did. The space is considered living space IF you remove the sliders or french doors between the house and the Lanai, then it becomes part of the house. He made it clear that windows don't matter, heat or AC doesn't matter, flooring doesn't matter, just don't make it part of the house. He did say that he enjoys all the comments we put on TOTV, especially those the contradict each other. If I have a question I now go to the people that can answer them, and they work from the County Services building at Powell and 466A. Golf cart accessible....of course :)

WE ENCLOSED OUR LANAI WITH SLIDERS 3M FILM AND A MITSHUBISHI ac. POLLEN ANBD RAIN--WE WERE CONSTANLTY POWERWQSHING AND CLEANING OUR LANAI.

Today I just saw this thread for the first time. One of the owners of CVS lives in my villas, he's done probably at least 20 of the 88 units here. I use to see their yard sign on a different home every month for a couple of years. I've never met the guy, never even seen him.

My golfing partner had his lanai enclosed by them. CYV's lanai's are not big, his is the same as mine 14' X 8'. He had an estimate from CVS for $6,000 and after six weeks they started work and it was finished by two weeks later and he was happy they came in under the estimate at $5,700.

I looked at it when finished, and it's basically three bronze aluminum sliding doors. Glass from floor to ceiling made of of three panels that slide open. He said they took six weeks to start because the doors are special ordered to size and then they have to wait for a crew, they only have 2 or 3 crews.

I said it looks like three 6' sliding doors could of done the job. Two side by side on the 14' side and one on the 8' side. Probably could of used some aluminum panels to fill in the gaps on the ends. I said 6' sliding doors only cost about $350 to $500 each. He said he wanted a professional looking job and was happy with the way it turned out.

Considering he buys the sliders less than the $350-500 you were quoted that's not a bad biz to be in.

what do you think his margin of profit was after all expenses and overhead?

My guess 50%

But folks pay it, so they keep charging........

Most companies installing the lanai doors and windows do a good job, that is why people are pleased with their work and they stay busy doing more glass enclosures. I was very pleased with T&D and the job they did for me, I had heavy duty vinyl doors installed. I would never try to install wooden doors or windows myself. I don't have the skill nor do I think wood is a good idea, besides what is wrong with hard working people making a profit? It is the American way.

Thank you. The information you provided is very helpful.