Energy Independence
 

I have been away for a while and was surprised to find the obvious lack of any discussion regarding energy independence.

Another concept destined to cripple the USA while political partisan positioning is so much more important.

I do not understand why the American adults do not deluge their representatives to DO SOMETHING.

Stop the bickering of no don't do this because, but that because.......do them all.

The argument of it takes years to see impact is BS. It starts with beginning. If we would have done ANYTHING.....ANYTHING....10 years ago we wouldn't be wringing our hands now. Drill yes (every other country is 50 miles off our coasts drilling.....WHAT A JOKE!!!!).
ALTERNATE FUELS? YES. Do it all.

What is it going to take to make the US great again? Get the the politics out of it and put AMERICA first.

What a pity we allow us to become a second rate nation....no manufacturing.....other countries buying our businesses. I fear we are complacent sheep destined to be a wage earning society only.

Why isn't it an issue in need of a paradigm shift? Why?

BTK

Re: Energy Independence
 

Yes. The Federal government has to get off their butts and do a few things.
1) Allow US oil componies to drill off the coast and Alaska.
2) Establish a program to build nuclear power plants.
3) Change regulations as to futures trading on oil and natural gas.
If we did any of these things, the price of oil would drop at once. The price is all based on speculation.

Re: Energy Independence
 

We deserve this and more. If we have done all that in the 70's, after the Oil Embargo we will have all the refineries, drilling and nuclear plants we need to be independent. We build the YELLOW PERIL in China, by given then all our manufacturing jobs, and they spit back at us. We are not becoming a second class country, we already are one. I am lucky I will not be alive to see the end.

Re: Energy Independence
 

Yes that and the value of the US dollar on the foreign market.

Re: Energy Independence
 

Where we have to go is to renewable energy. Why can't I shingle my house with solar and feed the power I collect back into the grid? Why can I have a windmill on top of my house that feeds power back into the grid? The technology is there today and you can do it in certain areas of Canada...

Drilling for oil sounds good but long term, it just delays where we need to be.

Re: Energy Independence
 

As I commented in an earlier post today:

Thinking long-term, drilling for more oil is not going to encourage technological innovation or reduce our dependency on a finite resource. It's just a bandaid, or to use another analogy, a "fix" for an economy addicted to fossil fuel.
There were electric cars available in the 1990's (made by GM) but they were pulled off the market (see the documentary "Who Killed the Electric Car.") The excuse that there are not enough facilities to charge these cars is not valid. After all, when Ford invented the gasoline fueled car, how many gas stations were out there? It takes a commitment by the people to investing in innovation to get us off oil and less dependent on oil producing nations.

...and if the government can subsidize the farm and oil industries, why can't we as individual taxpayers get a decent credit for solar panels, alternative energy vehicles, etc.?

Re: Energy Independence
 

Out of curiosity, what percentage of oil is used to produce gasoline rather than other things on which we've become dependent? If someone has the details, where and for what is the world's oil production used?

Details! Details! We need details!

Re: Energy Independence
 

I already addressed point 1, please search for my posts to see that one. As for 3, will need to learn more about that. It is 2 that has me concerned.

uranium 238 has a half life of 4.5 billion years. That means that the waste that is produced from nuclear energy will take about 9 billion years before it is safe to be around. I know we have technology, good steal, cement, all that stuff. Also, most people are not all that concerned about the survival of the human species. But I am. If you can show me a single container that can withstand 9 BILLION years, then I am all for this. But with the amount of waste produced, and then a 9 BILLION year time table to be safe to be near, I just do not see how anyone could even consider this. I honestly don't think people sit down and think this one through. Just think of it this way. Dead dinosaurs make oil, and how much oil is there? That is a few billion years of each dinosaur contributing about 5 barrels of oil to us each. Imagine if each one left us a few barrels of nuclear waste instead. Now you would have to more than triple that (population of humans are much greater) and double it again (we would produce more than 5 barrels in nuclear waste per person). Would you want to live here with that much radiation under you? It is just not a good option if you care more about a generation or two. Like I said, I do....

Re: Energy Independence
 

The people on this forum are exactly the same as our beloved congress. Argue about what the perfect answer is and DO NOTHING. The correct answer really is DO EVERYTHING. If we just started drilling and building all the different types of alternative supplies, prices would drop. But do something, discussing and philosophizing about it is why we have $4 gas today and if we continue down that path it will be $10 a gallon tomorrow. Why is that so difficult to comprehend?

Re: Energy Independence
 

I absolutely agree 100% Everything safe....

As I also said, I addressed the first issue somewhere else....

Repost:
The only solution is to look at this as a national security problem. During WWII we were able to convert all the resources of this country as well as the manufacturing base from making cars into making war products like planes and tanks. We need to do this again, but to make energy. We should have every house in this nation with solar panels (providing to themselves and a central grid) within 2 years. We should immediately convey production lines to only making cars with the highest gas standards within 2 years. We should immediately pass laws prohibiting undo waste (why does my software has to come in a 10 gallon create). We could preserve our way of life by taking some real measures, but no one seems willing to do it. And the thing is, none of these are political, they are common sense conservation. We have proven that we can do this in the past, so there is no reason we cannot do it now.

Re: Energy Independence
 

Until such time as partisanism is removed from the process there will be no progress.
Partisan accomplishment is akin to the win-lose scenario and most educated in the reality of accomplish understand there is no negotiation without compromise.
At the expense of the American people and the security of this country we continue to allow our so called lawmakers to do nothing. Until that CHANGES 30 years from now when the next generations are saying what we say....why didn't they do something 30 years ago when they knew there was a problem??????
In the 70's and 80's eaxh sitting President created policy to create energy independence. Some even stated it should be accomplished during their next decade. So what happened? Nothing!!!!!
Why???? Because the smarter clans on the planet that control oil lowered the price per barrel
(by the way back then that meant going from $40 per barrel back down to the high teens) hence no problem. And OPEC smiled once again.

If you really want to raise your eye brows do some home work. Go back to the energy crisis of the 70's and the status under each sitting President from then until now. The words then were the exact same as today. There was no 24/7 media to do our thinking then or create the split in America. When programs identified to become oil independent we managed to go from 25% imported in the 70's to 42% in the 90's to 70% during 2007.
After you research this subject and how it was addressed you need to study....really STUDY and ask how not only did we not accomplish what was directed by our past Presidents and lawmakers to become oil independent....we managed to almost triple our DEPENDENCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

AND ONCE AGAIN OPEC SMILED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I can only come up with one word (because the others I woulod use would be deleted by some body).....APATHY!!!!!

With our $700 Billion per year going to the mid east for oil they are building new cities and providing for their people with US for oil dollars

AND OPEC CONTINUES TO SMILE.....in the past they apeased us by lowering the price of oil.....now it doesn't matter any more.

NO MATTER THE PRICE OF OIL OR IT'S IMPACT ON THE LIVES OF THE PEOPLE AND STATUS OF OUR COUNTRY.......WE STILL DO NOTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Change? Forget it. How about the novel concept of accountability.

As I have said before the problem is very simple to solve. We are no longer capable.

If I am wrong....on the subject of oil independence accomplishments VS of objectives of the past.....on the subject of NOTHING coming forth from our current 545.....then prove it....some how!

BTK

BTK

Re: Energy Independence
 

Someone from the oil drilling side of the debate is going to have to explain to me, how the price of gas at the pumps is going to decrease if we start pumping 2 % of our total need. Everything that I read states that the best we could expect by more drilling is 2% or our total consumption.

Are the oil companies going to sell us the oil cheaper than what they can get in the global market? How will they be able to justify the additional cost of exploration and drilling.

If you want to sell the pro side on continuing the drilling of oil to satisfy our glut for oil, you need to find a better reason the prices. Prices will just not go down, if anything they will just continue to increase whether we drill or not drill.

Alternate renewable energy is the only way to go.

Re: Energy Independence
 

As I commented in an earlier post:

Thinking long-term, drilling for more oil is not going to encourage technological innovation or reduce our dependency on a finite resource. It's just a bandaid, or to use another analogy, a "fix" for an economy addicted to fossil fuel.
There were electric cars available in the 1990's (made by GM) but they were pulled off the market (see the documentary "Who Killed the Electric Car.") The excuse that there are not enough facilities to charge these cars is not valid. After all, when Ford invented the gasoline fueled car, how many gas stations were out there? It takes a commitment by the people to investing in innovation to get us off oil and less dependent on oil producing nations.

...and if the government can subsidize the farm and the oil industry, why can't we as individual taxpayers get a decent credit for solar panels, alternative energy vehicles, etc.?

Re: Energy Independence
 

As I noted before, everyone believes their idea is the best so NOTHING gets done. Welcome to our congress.

Re: Energy Independence -
 

SO DO SOMETHING!!!

I, for one, am writing to the Governor and US Senators from Florida to express my support of increased tax credits for individuals who opt for alternative energy sources, such as solar heating, etc. Our current credits in Florida for residential solar incentives (http://www.dep.state.fl.us/energy/energyact/solar.htm) are a disgrace, considering what the government hands out in subsidies to the farm and oil industries.
If anyone else wants to do something about this, I've included the email and mail addresses of these representatives:

Governor Crist:
Office of Governor Charlie Crist
State of Florida
PL-05 The Capitol
Tallahassee, FL 32399-0001
Email: Charlie.Crist@MyFlorida.com <Charlie.Crist@MyFlorida.com>


Senator Martinez: He is a member of the Energy and Natural Resources Committee
Washington:
Senator Mel Martinez
United States Senate
356 Russell Senate Office Building
Washington, DC 20510
Main: (202) 224-3041
Email on web form:
http://martinez.senate.gov/public/in...on.ContactForm

Senator Nelson: Member, Budget and Commerce Committees
Senator Bill Nelson
Washington, D.C.
United States Senate
Email on web form:
http://billnelson.senate.gov/contact/email.cfm
716 Senate Hart Office Building
Washington, DC 20510
Phone: 202-224-5274
Fax: 202-228-2183

Rep. Marco Rubio, Speaker
Florida House of Representatives
402 South Monroe Street
Tallahassee, Florida 32399-1300
(850) 488-1450
Email: marco.rubio@myfloridahouse.gov

Rep. Mayfield, Chair
ENVIRONMENT & NATURAL RESOURCES COUNCIL
Florida House of Representatives
402 South Monroe Street
Tallahassee, Florida 32399-1300
(850) 488-9238

Rep. Kreegel, Chair
Committee on Energy
Florida House of Representatives
402 South Monroe Street
Tallahassee, Florida 32399-1300
(850) 488-9175
Email: paige.kreegel@myfloridahouse.gov

Rep. Williams, Chair
Florida House of Representatives
Committee on Environmental Protection
402 South Monroe Street
Tallahassee, Florida 32399-1300
(850) 488-2047
Email: trudi.williams@myfloridahouse.gov

All it takes is a click on the URL or a phone call - NO EXCUSES!

Re: Energy Independence -
 

Will do!! I will ask not for tax credits (I am too poor for that to help since I don't have the up front money to start with), but a social loan program. If we get solar panels that are wired to a grid (state wide program), then the excess energy can go back to the central unit and each person can pay off the panels since that is free energy that the state can sell to (pick your party) [Rep] either some private energy company who can mark it up and sell it to businesses [Dem] or directly to businesses.

I will also say that we should try anything that can be a safe form of energy. So long as it wont kill us (or my son), we should use it...

Re: Energy Independence
 

:bigthumbsup:
That makes two of us...c'mon TOTV members, let's be heard!

Re: Energy Independence
 

Travel, thank you for posting the names and addresses.

I have been off line for some time and would like to share what we have done to our house in the Mid Hudson Valley of NY.

We heat our water with Solar Power that we installed about 22 years ago when they were still given tax credits for this. President Reagan discontinued the tax credit.

We had our electric company analyze our house to improve its efficiency. Followed all there suggestions and have kept up with the latest technology to keep our house efficient. We have lived here for 30 years and our electric bill has not gone up during that time, in fact it has gone down.

We have a Prius which keeps our gasoline bill down and has been suggested we combine quite a few tasks each time we go into town. Town is 10 miles away and that is where we do all our shopping, medical lab is there and other places we need to go to.

Prius - The first time we got a Prius there was a tax credit, this year when we got another Prius there was no tax credit.

Heating - our house is extremely well insulated and our heating bill this year will be over $4,000. There are no tax credits to help us with the cost of installing any solar installation such as putting in a Trombe Wall or other alternative solar powered alternatives. Once again, under President Reagan tax credits were discontinued as well as many of the programs associated with using all forms of alternative energy and thus increasing our dependence on oil.

There is solar powered air conditioning for cars and houses - last time I checked the cost was quite prohibitive for us.

There are alternatives to drilling for more oil, all we need is affordable access to them. They have been around for decades. I will let you decide why there hasn't been more publicity about them.

Since I am on a roll - what worries me the most and gives me the most concern are all the people who in the past had to make decisions about medicine or food. Now they will have another major concern - heat. Our oil bill has nearly doubled this year and we have done what we can to keep this bill as low as possible.

HB

Re: Energy Independence
 

For those of you taking up the challenge to write to local as well as Federal lawmakers, I applaud loudly. May I also recommend you communicate to every friend and family member to do like wise. In my opinion the oil dependency is one issue that WILL affect all your love ones....sooner or later if we do not get something done.

Regarding the posts about not being able to drill enough on USA soil. PLEASE....don't carry the party line of we can't drill our way out of the problem. The real impact would be the message sent to OPEC.....because they are pretty sure we will continue to do nothing...as we have been. An announcement that we WILL begin drilling and expand exploring for domestic oil is ONLY one step of many to be taken. It will send the most immediate message. Followed as quickly as possible with any and ALL alternatives that contribute to oil/energy independence.

You want an impact on jobs......get the above going and see what newly created opportunities occur.

Have you heard what is going on in TX? They are opening closed wells...they are repairing all related drilling operations....they are rebuilding oil drilling equipment...they are uncapping wells that were deemed unprofitable at prior $$/barrel. You wanna pay $150 per barrel....pay it to USA/domestic operations.....FIRST. By the way, as a result TX has the hottest economy in the USA.

The impact and dividends on domestic drilling can not be....should not be ....measured as what will it do at the pump.

Oil/energy independence.....WHAT EVER IT TAKES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BTK

Re: Energy Independence
 

BTK -- You are right on the 'barrel head', no pun intended. We love our car, we love driving it, it's the American way and we don't want that to change -- no pun intended there either !!!

Re: Energy Independence
 

golfpro - have you thought of getting a Prius. We have the least expensive model and get 50 miles per gallon.

HB

Re: Energy Independence
 

NEVER -- It's ugly ! WE LOVE OUR CARS. We worked hard to be able to drive what we want. I don't care if I get 50 mpg. We enjoy the comfort/room of our vehicles. We refuse to let our 545 to force us to live/eat/breath the way they want. We don't live in Russia. This is still the USA. Let's bring back the values we grew up with, not the socialist agenda of the power hungry.

Done. We're off to bed :)

Re: Energy Independence
 

HB ~
Your Prius is beautiful and so are your intentions and responsible way of living.
Travel
(My Mini is pretty cute, too)

Re: Energy Independence
 

Thanks for the post Travel, I'm with you. I will send this information to everyone I know, regardless of what side of the debate they are on.

And, I think those of you who think this forum is like Congress. I disagree. We talk to each other about the different sides of this debate. Congress just talk at each other, not to each other.

This issue needs a grass roots effort, if anything is going to get done.

I also agree with jeckle, we need solutions that include clean energy. I have grand kids, and I don't want them to inherit a world they can't live in.

I suggest everyone go and see Wall-e. Have a few laughs, but look at the darker side of the message in the animated movie, Wall-e.

Re: Energy Independence
 

Jim007 - good post!
The grass roots effort you refer to can start right here and now. I still believe that our system, while not perfect, can work for us if we stay informed and actively participate in our government. Contacting our representatives is a start.
I am saddened by those who have given up on our system and are so cynical that they won't even try, but are quick to criticize. We owe the next generation a better example of what good, responsible citizenship is all about.
Travel

Re: Energy Independence
 

Travel, once again :agree: with you. I also :agree: with Jim007.

I think if we can show the younger generation that a grass roots effort works, than hopefully they and others will not be apathetic.

My personal feeling, mine alone, I do not live on an island where I can only think about myself, I feel it is my responsibility to care for all generations.

It has been a long time since there has been a grass roots movement here in the United States. Where I grew up, there were mini grass roots movements. One such movement helped prevent deaths of people crossing a major road, where there was no traffic light.

HB

Re: Energy Independence - So Let's Do Something!
 

I've emailed all of the elected representatives listed above (click on the link for the list), plus a few additional committee chairs in the US Senate. So far I have received a reply from Paige Kreegel, Florida House of Representatives, which was not exactly encouraging regarding increasing the budget for tax credits on alternative energy sources for homeowners.
However, it is a start, and hopefully more TOTV people will take a few minutes to click on the email links I provided, and share your stories with us.
Thanks!

Re: Energy Independence
 

Last year or the year before, I heard Ginnie Brown-Waite speak in TV. I was impressed with her views, except for her position on off-shore drilling. I could understand it since it is such a hot political issue especially with the gulf coast tourist trade, almost a 3rd rail in FL politics. However, earlier this year I saw where Ginnie was berating the Dems for their inane refusal to even consider the ANWR proposals. I sent an email to her office deriding her hypocrisy for attacking the libs over ANWR while refusing to reconsider off-shore drilling. I got a nice response that with the increasing cost of oil, the growing international demand, and the technological advances in open water drilling, she was reconsidering her position. Not long after, she announced that she favored removing the federal ban.

I'd like to think it was my email with my cogent arguments, but I expect she's gotten a lot of commo on the subject and had really considered the changing situation. So regardless of your position, whether you agree with me or favor some idiotic proposal like using Love Bugs to generate power, write to your Senator and Rep, both state and federal. It can't hurt.

Re: Energy Independence
 

Better still - fire all of the Congresspersons and inform the new guy/gal that a second term is dependent upon REAL energy reform !

The ones in office now could care less and bank upon the historical fact that the incumbent almost always remains in office indefinitely no matter what the electorate feels is important.

Re: Energy Independence
 

"People are afraid of the future, of the unknown. If a man faces up to it, and takes the dare of the future, he can have some control over his destiny. That's an exciting idea to me, better than waiting with everybody else to see what's going to happen."
- John H. Glenn

:agree:

Re: Energy Independence
 

Muncle and SteveZ: As you used to say back in the day -- RIGHT ON

Re: Energy Independence
 

Wow Golfpro, just a wild hair guess here, but are you a Republican? :o

Re: Energy Independence
 

is that really the American way ("We worked hard" - "we want" - "I don't care" - "the way they want") thats right - the hell with everyone else - remember David and Goliath - with that kind of an attitude you wonder why there is terrorism and that is one war we may not win - i am sorry but i hate that kind of talk - WE will do what WE want when WE want and how WE want - sorry but thats the way i feel - for a country that uses far more energy per person then any other country when do we stop with the greed and start with conservation each and everyone of us - we have to change our attitude

Re: Energy Independence
 

Nitehawk: I believe you are the insulting one. Since when did freedom of choice go out the window in America. Since when did freedom of speech go out the window in America. Since when does the government own and run America's way of life. Remember Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.

The energy 'crisis' in America is brought on by the 545. If you want to live in a Marxist country, MOVE to it. But don't use my country, America to put that agenda forward.

Re: Energy Independence
 

See there you go again GolfPro. This not only YOUR country, this is OUR country as well. Everyone acknowledges that you have a right to your opinion. IMHO, it shows a mindset that is closed, unbending, greedy and self-centered. The is my opinion -- and I have a right to it also.

hmmm, closed, unbending, greedy, self-centered -- Hey! Is this George W. Bush in disguise? Come on fess up, fess up. ::)

Re: Energy Independence
 

Golfpro, don't you get it. It is exactly the "power hungry" that has put us in the situation we find ourselves in. The "power hungry" got richer and more powerfull by selling us on the idea that everyone in this country needs a 4X4 vehicle that gets 10 miles to the gallon. And probably less than 1% of those owners have ever used 4 wheel drive. We can't live with our sporty little glitzy car that gets 14 miles to gallon. It's that same "power hungry" segment of our society that has sold us on the idea of becoming a throw away society. They continue to become richer and more powerful. Yes we do need change. Especially, when there are so many people in this country that don't really care about what happens after their gone. So, let's keep using as many plastic items, let's keep driving those gas hogs, let's keep filling up our land fill. Let's continue to be the ugly Americans that the rest of the world sees. Let's see how much waste we can accumulate and store away for our grandkids and their children.

Re: Energy Independence
 

Well said Jim007

Re: Energy Independence
 

Golgpro - I have reread what you have written, it is my feeling, and yes my feeling alone, that when a country is in trouble as we are now, it is important for us all to work together to resolve the problem.

I have no doubt that you worked hard to drive the car that you bought and the monies to pay for the gasoline it consumes. It sounds from the way you write, that your car uses a lot of gasoline. If I am wrong, I apologize - you did not state mpg usage of your car.

As I wrote above, I feel we must resolve this problem as a country - I can not help but think of more and more senior citizens and others who will now have to make another major decision in their lives - first it was prescribed medication or food, and now it is prescribed medication, food or freezing.

I am an American who believes differently than you. I believe in looking after and helping another American in ways that I can.

So as an American, these are my feelings. Yes, I do recall Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness but at whose expense? For me, the decision is an easy one.

HB

Re: Energy Independence
 

Wonderfully said HB. I could hug you sweetie. And by the way, I love your Prius! :#1:

Re: Energy Independence
 

I am pleased at most of the response to this very crucial subject (again) during a time (hopefully) when we can do something about it.

What is annoying in this post as in most in this forum segment, is the propensity by some, to CONTINUALLY, attempt to guide the discussion toward, partisan positioning, political referencing or incumbent/candidate bashing. All are entitled to their preferences and opinions. If we were in a quorum you would be kindly reminded....that is not the subject of this thread. It adds absolutely no value to the solution(s) and suggestions.
Whatever the belief or position or religion or race or political slant, the issue is what it is for years of neglect for the past 30 years and an attempt to place blame is like trying to step in the river in the same spot.

When one focusing on who said what or did what or not they miss the point....and we certainly would like that same cranial energy to contribute to the subject at hand....thank you.

BTK