Confederate Flag
 

The Confederate battle flag is still flying at the grounds of the South Carolina statehouse. It is a symbol of racism. The Civil War was about slavery for a main part. Most Americans see it as racist and a sign that should be destroyed. The flag does have a place in history - in a museum case - but not flying on the Statehouse grounds.

Brave Americans fought and died for that flag's right to fly. It is meant as a sign of bravery and not racism.

I think the real question is "what is the intent"? While some people may display this flag for the purpose of their own personal show of racism (which, btw, is not the historical meaning of this flag at all!), I highly doubt that the state of SC flies it for that reason. It is a part of their history. Why must we constantly change our history because people choose to distort things?

The civil war was lost by the southern states. To hold onto the memory of a cause that has been proven to be unpopular to the vast majority should certainly be allowed on personal property but not in the public view of so many SC citizens that find it so upsetting. If you are proud of the KKK, you should have the right to fly their flag in your front yard, but again, I would find it inappropriate on a flag pole in my neighborhood park. Public places supported by tax dollars from everyone should not take a stand on issues like this. Remember a famous quote "United we stand, Divided we fall"

Mitt Romney Joins Call for Confederate Flag to Come Down After Shooting - NBC News


Mitt Romney came out with a powerful statement yesterday saying take this flag down, it has no place on public grounds. Jeb Bush echoed his words and had the good sense to remove the flag from the Florida state house back in 2000.

People who want to remember and honor the war dead can do so at a museum or confederate cemetery.

A state legislator in SC will be introducing a bill to remove the flag from public buildings when the legislature reconvenes in January 2016.

Actually, most of the people fighting in the Confederate War had no ideal what they were fighting for. Many families had sons fighting for different sides. The Southern people didn't like the North telling them what to do. The confederate people were treated like dogs after the war. Texans were treated the worst. I visited the Vicksburg Battleground and there is a plaque there that states that President Lincoln would not allow any Confederate Soldiers to be buried in the cemeteries there. They were all buried in mass unmarked graves outside of town. The one that really confuses me is why do we have racial riots in the Northern states, the ones that fought to free the slaves? I'm from Michigan and I remember the Detroit riots very well. Detroit has never recovered from them.

Really? The Confederate flag is the flag of the KKK? Seems to me I have seen such groups fly the American flag as well. Should we get rid of that too? That's precisely my point!

I love this kind of comparison......

The Confederate is the flag of a lost country, The Confederated States of America. It should be remembered, but not flown on public buildings. The KKK flag is no different than the ISIS flag.

Listen, I have no dog in this fight. I just don't get racism at all. Did not grow up with it and don't understand it. I probably have more different cultures, skin colors, etc in my family than most of you, so again, I just don't get it! My point is that it is a flag - a thing - like any other thing that can be taken out of context. I go back to my question - "what is the intent" of flying it in SC? I think it should be up to the state of SC and the people of that state as to what is the proper thing to do. I just get tired of others dictating what someone else should do based on their own biased thinking.

Just FYI regarding the flag and the KKK -

The Real Flag Of The Ku Klux Klan - KKK

Don't know anything about this site or KKK for that matter, just googled "the flag of the KKK" and this is one of articles I found.

Just now found this - Ku Klux Klan (U.S. organization)

Once again, by no means am I a promoter of any kind for this organization, but I do hate disinformation!

There was no CSA flag flown at the state capital in SC until the civil rights act was passed in the 1960's. Then the segregationist leadership of that state, and others, responded by claiming that they could defy the federal government (just like they had 100 years earlier). And as part of this state's speech SC chose to begin to fly the stars and bars over their statehouse. It was a clear response to laws enacted to help black Americans achieve equality. That is not an accident of history. It is a clear message to black Americans. The CSA flag is no more a symbol that is legitimately used to honor the South's history of starting the most brutal war fought by the USA than flying the flag of Nazi Germany can be said to honor the German's who died for their country and fought out of German patriotism, perhaps not fully aware of the policies of their leadership.
The Nazi flag is of course still revered by some and its meaning is not German pride. The CSA flag is still revered by some, and its meaning is not Southern pride. It is not surprising that Mr. Roof on his personal website has photos of himself proudly holding the CSA flag while also burning and spitting on the American flag. You fly the CSA flag, you are speaking very clearly. You wish the CSA had won that war and that the darkies were still on the plantation.

Only the people of South Carolina, through their elected state representatives, will make this decision, but that doesn't mean that others cannot make their opinions known especially the 2016 presidential hopefuls.

If any good is to come out of this heart-breaking, despicable act it will be to have this flag removed once and for all. God bless Charleston as they grieve.

And that being said, and if true (not saying it is not, I am just admitting I don't know), then you have answered my question about intent. So let's allow the people of SC to decide if that is so. To respond to the others on here, expressing one's opinion is one thing but knowing the true intent is clearly another.

Excellent post :bigbow:

Well, you are spreading disinformation.
If you use photos from the 1920's you will see American flags. If you look at Klan activities from the 1960's forward you will see CSA flags in far greater number. Even on the website you linked, look at only color photo which is the only one taken in the last 60 years. Proudly hanging next to the USA flag is the CSA flag. The B&W photo here is from a Klan march in the 1980's in NC. The other is from your linked website and undated.
And if you really don't understand the close connection of the KKK to the Confederate flag I offer a google image search for you using KKK rally
https://www.google.com/search?q=kkk+...h&q=kkk+rally+

With some research we see that the flag of the CSA is not the same flag as is commonly associated with the Confederacy. The design used on the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia was never officially recognized as one of the national flags. It was rejected as a national flag in 1861.

It's a battle flag, not a national flag. It represents all who died in the civil war

IF you go back and look at the first post, the OP states the flag is the confederate battle flag. Yes, it is a point that ALL the GOP candidates must address during this campaign. Yes, the KKK does use that sign of white supremacy along with the American flag.

Is the Nazi swastika allowed to fly anywhere in Germany? NO!

The confederate battle flag is comparable to the Nazi swastika. The KKK and the Nazis have much in common such as white supremacy.

The Nazi swastika flag represents those who died in WWII. It is outlawed in Germany.

how very amusing.....a minority (not race) special interest group attempting to take to task another minority (not race here either) special interest group.

And some so brazen as to claim they have the majority to back their position.

Let's just agree to disagree. The confederate flag was not designed or intended to represent racism. In recent years, once again, special interest groups have been continuing to categorize a subject to fit their cause.

Think about the future of the Americam flag. At what point will it be determined by the majority....that would no longer be US.....to represent a whiteness that prohibeted people of color from being Americans......or something like that.

No? I would not bet against it given the trend of changing and redefining going on in America today.

It is the flag adopted by the segregationist of the KKK and others to represent their beliefs. It doesn't matter one whit whether it was a flag of Northern Virginia or a squadron of dung beetles. It is now a very clear symbol of the desire to reassert white domination of this country and that blacks are an inferior species. I don't need history lessons, I am very well versed in history. Flags mean what the users of those flags represent. It is no accident that Roof had the Rhodesian flag on his clothes. He was not honoring the sacrifices of Mr Rhodes, he was honoring its modern association with the racist view of the world he shared. We don't represent the dead of Nazi Germany by flying the Nazi flag. We don't even represent the dead of the Union soldiers, or the WW I soldiers by displaying the flag under which they fought. We use the modern USA flag. So stop the excuse based on what the flag might have meant in 1862. It now means segregation, racism, bigotry to all those with any degree of decency. Even the very conservative state of Texas understood the meaning of that flag. And every time that CSA flag is held high above a white sheet, above a Nazi salute, its modern day meaning is made ever clearer

No, I WILL NOT agree to disagree with you. You are WRONG. The confederate flag was part of the slaveholding South which is the epitomy of racism.

As for the second part of your statement - ignorant.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/20/us...e-iphone-share


So good and so true. South Carolinians love this flag so much that it will take a super-majority vote in both the house and senate to make any changes, unless of course they change the law requiring a super-majority. Changing the law would only require a simple majority.

The only optimistic caveat towards removing the flag is South Carolina's changing demographics and the business community.

Once again, the point is made that no back and forth dialogue can be had on some of these threads. You try to post links as simply examples and posters take them out of context. My point in posting was not to say that I know it all, or to prove this one or that wrong, but to just get people to think about intentions instead of assumptions. It was my mistaken notion that anyone here would want dialogue that may bring understanding. Apparently the only important thing to some is to push their agenda. So go at it - I've got better things to do.

How about a lol. I don't know how to do it, but I would bet the results of it would be to remove it.

Lol, that lol above was supposed to read poll.

I believe you will find that the Confederate Flag has different meanings to different people just as does the American Flag, the Christian Cross, a pro ball's team logo, etc. and this debate all ends up being someone's opinion.

The issue to me is First Amendment rights to free speech, etc. and I believe that it is important no matter how one feels to allow a person, a state to make that choice. We have groups like Freedom From Religion and the ACLU making a concerted effort to remove religion from America because they say it offends some people but the essence of free speech is that you are going to offend somebody but only when those offending move to the next levels does it matter.

A KKK member who verbally espouses his belief exercises his First Amendment rights and those who opposed that idea express their contempt to this KKKer beliefs. It is not a problem unless either of these groups carries this belief to a higher and more invasive level

I am not concerned that South Carolina chooses to fly the Confederate Flag because it is clear that black Americans are not interfered with in any respect in this state.

What gauls me most is that this issue is really being used as a political stunt for the politically ambitious

We have many problems to be resolved in this country and this dispute over a flag is just plain silly

Personal Best Regards:

you could not be more insensitive and more wrong if you tried. The ACLU of course has supported the first amendment more strongly than any right wing organization including HATE speech when that speech is made by private individuals. If you want to fly your CSA flag to proudly display your disdain for ongoing racism it is your 1st amendment right and the ACLU will come to your support.

As to your blatant ignorance of the ongoing racial issues in South Carolina I will only need to point out to you that the judge who has been handling this case for the government has been removed because in open court 10 years ago he referred to black Americans as *******. In open court on the record and he was allowed to continue to hear cases and judge black persons. Was that blind justice or blindingly racist beliefs being tolerated? And we may not have problem any greater than racism in this country. Keep your personal regards, they seem to be tainted and I don't need that stain on me.

I guess you throw in someone who is not running into the ambitious sector..... unless you consider Romney only a "stunt" man. His tweet speaks volumes. You should try Twitter sometime.

Mitt Romney*

✔@MittRomney

Take down the #ConfederateFlag at the SC Capitol. To many, it is a symbol of racial hatred. Remove it now to honor #Charleston victims.

11:09 AM - 20 Jun 2015

Very clear to me, but it is like a sail full of holes. Your throwing your wind at a void. I know a man that uses the "n" word on a daily basis while watching the news, but will physically fight you if you dare say that he is Predudice. I try to take it all in stride. I am the bad guy if I suggest an alternative to words like that.

I am not the poster to whom your post refers, but I am going to venture back into this conversation just to say the following -

This may be hard for some on here to believe, but there are many of us who could care less what any specific politician thinks or believes whether it be from the opposing party or our own. We can think for ourselves and do not feel obligated to tow a party line. Whether I, for example, like Romney or not (and I do actually), he does not necessarily speak for me. I have not even looked up what others have said about this topic because it really doesn't matter. I can formulate an opinion based on my own thoughts and understanding - I don't need to be told how to think.

Oh I thought it was the flag of the South which happened to be slave holding.

As for the ignorent comment THAT is ignorant!

Well, thank you all for your input. I personally feel the flag could go away, but there have been several eye opening opinions to keep it. Great thread and mostly civil.

Excellent post and also excellent commentsry on the blemished and stained "personal regards".

Learn how to spell "ignorant" and then crawl back into your curmudgeon troll hole.

Baited especially for U!
Curmudgeon troll? Where is the bite me emoticon?

Baited especially for me?

How much more could one be a self-identified troll?

Now, get back down your troll hole and stay there.

Do The Villages Tea Party meeting start each meeting off with a salute to the Confederate flag and a cross burning in an ash tray?

Dear Guest: Your response was a personal attack on me because I chose to defend First Amendment rights explaining that by its nature someone will surely be offended. My response wasn't about me. This issue is bigger than all of us because it is about us or more specifically about free America. The ACLU is anything but civil and they operate to undermine American freedoms to a point of insanity. You speak to the judge's conduct but then conclude that he was removed. Wasn't this a good outcome?

Why is it people such as yourselves only see America in a negative light as racial charged, aggressors, colonialist?

People risk their lives to reach our borders and rightly so and AGAIN I SAY WHILE WE ARE NOT PERFECT WE ARE THE BEST THAT THE WORLD HAS TO OFFER. some folks just do not understand the limits of nature and human nature. And I say again the Confederate flag means different things to different people and whether it flies over South Carolina or not it has no material sway on how those residents interact. The debate is a political one and a silly one at that, perhaps dangerous because some politicians are using it to garner black votes and the sharptonites are using it to justify their existence. You may choose to bite on that bait but I cannot and will not, my focus is always on what are our national priorities.

Personal Best Regards: