Reactions to the Oct. 2, 2008 VP Debates
 

Should be interesting

The Fix is In!
 

Hahaha! Islandgal, according to the Republican posters, the fix is already in to conspire against Palin. Stay tuned . . . :)

bump

Sure wish she
could pronounce Iraq/Iran correctly. She also pronounces
nuclear as new-cu-lar. Her "good old gal" act is out of place for the position she seeks.

I just shut off the TV ...They are both posturing and I cannot listen to anymore of their combined cr..
What a misery this election is , can't stand either candidate..back to voting for the lesser of 2 evils,and who might that be????? Arghhhhhhh:(

Posturing. You got it.

I cannot believe they are not coaching her to lose that spunky, cute, girl next door routine and to try to come off like a world leader. And the word energy is getting pounded into the ground. "Go! Fight! Win!" She sounds like the head cheerleader trying to get us all pumped up for the big game. And I am not saying this to be mean or to pick on her. Really. But I sure would market her differently. She keeps going after the vote she already has.

And Biden just comes off slicker than snot on a doorknob.

A misery indeed.

What Beady said.

Me, too.

And now I will shut up. I cannot believe I started hanging out in political again tonight. What was I thinking?

Boomer

I still think she has a string coming out of her back. When you pull the string, the good old gal, memorized lines come out by rote. She coyly flirts with us on an eighth grade level. This is a possible world leader???

Why does she keep winking and making that clicking sound with her mouth?

Speechless.
 

I'm trying to find the right words. And, believe it or not, I'm trying to be fair. I agree with Boomer 100% that they should get that "you betcha Joe Six-Pack" out of her. It appears they think this connects with people. What people? The ones that can't even spell GED, I fear. This is not the woman I would want representing women in any way, shape or form. Much less our country. Way and I mean, waaaayyyyy out of her league.

To be fair, I think she did what her party wanted her to do. The bar was set so low, even she could not stumble. Energy, reform and maverick were her buzz words. (Although Biden snuffed out the maverick image and I noticed she then stopped using it.) Thank God. She did not make me, personally, feel any more comfortable than before. If I lived around people that "folksy" quite frankly, I'd move. The thought of her and Putin staring each other in the eyes is chilling.

I thought the moderator was fair, but not that good. She did not do the follow-ups I would have liked to have seen. Palin seemed to want to control the debate, even telling the moderator she might not answer everything asked. And somehow, that was allowed.

Joe Biden made me feel comfortable especially in the Foreign Policy segment. I liked that he didn't use kid gloves, but was still always the gentleman. I liked that when she pulled out the "mom" card, he trumped it with the "dad" card.'' I think he answered all of the questions. I can't say the same for Palin.

All in all, I don't think this debate changed anyone's minds.

I really hate to bring any substantive issues into this discussion, but when Biden said that climate change was 100% man-made, I just couldn't believe it. When did we build refineries on Mars?

Another day we can get into easterners' (& Californians') disdain for fly-over people.

:popcorn::1rotfl: wink wink!!

I thought the Palin and Biden debate was forgettable. They both made we wince at times. And why does she have to drag that poor little baby around on stages?

Not Much Going On There
 

Sarah Palin didn't do herself any harm, but she also seldom answered the questions directly, so she didn't do herself much good either. Biden was okay, didn't smack Palin around (figuratively, of course), and didn't bloviate much. All-in-all, a pretty boring experience. If you want a debate, put the two debaters (or is it debators?) in a room together in front of the camera with no moderator, and let them duke it out. In that format, you can't hide and you can't evade the questions. But that will never happen as long as the networks get to set the agenda.

I think Biden did a better job of connecting McCain to Bush than Obama did. Palin got in a couple of zingers. There was the typical political posturing (lying and exaggerating) by both of them. All in all, they seemed like two nice people who were trying to respect their opponents.

Palin needs someone to point out to her that the U.S. doesn't need a down-home, aw shucks soccer mom. If she's shrewd enough to go from mayor of a small town to governor, she's certainly a lot shrewder than she's showing. We need to see her srtengths, not her cuteness.

It really is hard to pick on Biden. He has the age and experience and the savvy needed to show his best side. He can be dull and long-winded, but he is a politician, albeit one of the nicer ones.

It is strange to think that regardless of who is elected to be president, our vice president will be the poorest we've ever had.

At this point, I think I'd rather have Biden for prez and Palin for vp (given our choices) than the two running for that office.

There, I think that covers my opinion of the VP debate and more or less what I feel about these two. (YAWN probably sums it up best.)

I agree with you. I find it irritating that she says "ya" instead of "you" and "goin" instead of "going", that type of thing. It makes her sound uneducated. I know she's been coached to make the best of her strong points, i.e. her folksiness, but I too would prefer someone who speaks a little more intelligently.

I will give it to Palin in this way, if you dont know the answer or get nervous, always go back to energy and how Joe Six Pack wants things in Wasilla... I was glad to see Biden not pick to much. ALthough he got her on the Climate deal. I have to agree that Palin's coaching payed off by the creek in Az. She just forgot how to answer questions that are directed at her. I thought her remark that people on the east coast dont do things like right as compared to ALaska. That was kind of open ended, but Biden smiled and left it alone.

Palin made one obvious stumble, when she twice referred to the top U.S. commander in Afghanistan as "Gen. McClellan." (His name is David McKiernan). As you mentioned, she didn't answer the questions at times, which Biden did call her on once.

Did either one present anything new or revealing?
 

Not one word.
Anybody half up to date on current events could have come up with most of the same questions....as did the debate preparation teams for both parties. Two politicians primed, prepared and playing to their respective audiences as planned and coached.

Those making so called educational measures of words like ya VS you and what ever else are either English majors or never lived anywhere in the deep South...or the very far Northern parts of Canada or New England where they all have their local twang....even the most educated and successful!!
In the same line of using speech as a measure of anything, there are many well spoken idiots out there some where....many who couldn't find their :cus: with a map.

As long as they (I don't care who) are on the stage in front of a camera...practiced, prepared, coached, etc....y'all are not seein' the real person!!

Winner-loser.......none. They both get a C-. Yawn best describes it.

By the way using all the microscopic measures applied to Palin....there are a lot of folks, both sides of the aisle, that shouldn't be in those positions.
Obviously qualifications is a very overused, misused, misguided, prejudiced, meaningless and unneccessary measurement.:jester:

BTK

I very seldom even comment on debates as they are more carnival than enlightning in anyway,but out of curiosity I went to fact check and find that neither one of them told much truth :) But that is the way of politics today !!!

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2...in_debate.html

If we are going to get into pronunciation nitpicking, how about Obama with his "Tollybahn" amd "Pahkystahn".

I question Biden's lack of character for not owning up to his rabid support for the war prior to and initially after the war but now tries to twist it into making it sound like all he was doing was voting to authorize negotiations. That is a lie and anyone who does any fact checking knows this.

To call a question-and-answeer-and-rebuttal session with candidates a [I]debate[/I in an academic sense is really stretching a definition.

Both candidates had one job - make the primary candidate look good or better. Anything after that is just a bonus. With that being the job, both did not fail.

The two VP candidates have dramatically different personalities, and there is nothing wrong with that. That's true also of the Presidential candidates as well. People use what best works for them to transmit a message, and the transmission media vary a lot. The question should be whether you understood the content of the message versus whether you approve of someone's accent or vernacular. I try to get value from the content of the message, rather than look at the delivery of the message from an entertainment or showmanship perspective. If you measure a person by how well you approve/like their personality and communications manner versus the content of the message, then you are more concerned with style than substance.

One of the worst public speakers I ever knew was a French engineer/businessman. He would stumble over his notes, mispronounce names brutally and always looked like he was in total fear of the audience. however, behind closed doors he was without doubt the best negotiator I ever met, and rarely came away from the table (no matter how many parties were involved in the negotiation) other than with total success. Most people grossly underestimated him, and he took total advantage of their error.

So, if you are looking for a William Jennings Bryant type who can take the stage and give a mesmerizing performance, get your candidate from Broadway. If you want your candidate to be the one who leaves the negotiating table as the winner, pick the smart poker player with the track record of beating the odds and making everyone wonder How did s/he do that?

Good post.....I used that term....elitism...to describe this board on the politics board and the one that was here for the horse park and glad to hear that someone else can see it also.

Eliteism, tends to masks reality because.....
 

those who "think" they are or worse want to be seen/heard as elite usually role play to a large degree to live up to an expectation they have in mind that accomplishes their goal.
Always measuring...they rarely get to read the really good books that don't have a cover measuring up to their minds eye.

They are rarely a good judge of people because they miss the real person due to the measuring filter employed.

BTK

Wooo Hoooo!
 

Dr. Phil! Is that you? :popcorn: Go on . . .

One does not have to be a sound-bite psychologist to observe the obvious. Snobbery usually has the visibility of a billboard.

Exchanges of ideas and opinions often work best with mutual respect. Snide remarks and insults under the "it's just my brand of humor" may keep Don Rickles employed, but that does very little in increasing knowledge and understanding on subjects of the day which one would think is the purpose of a politcal discussion board.

There are many points of view among the participants of this board - probably as many as the number of participants themselves. We learn about these views from the presentation, discussion, debate, challenge and rebuttal, and our personal view (at least mine are) are often tempered by developing a better understanding of a contrary position. Let's hope we can keep this exchange in a respectful manner, as more is learned in such an environment than through just verbally slicing a person for the "fun of it."

The Marketing of Sarah Palin
 

Good Morning, Bucco and BTK & Co.,

I don't know if you have ever read anything I write, and I will spare you a leaflet drop -- for now. But in case you do not know me, I think I had better preface this with a couple of things:

1. I am not in hate with John McCain. But I am angry over this VP thing. I have always been a moderate Republican woman. I must confess though that I have been accused of being a closet Democrat from time to time.

2. My gripe with Sarah Palin is that far right, same old, same old stuff that has been a distraction from real issues for years. And those far right issues have blown so much smoke, for so long, redirecting focus from the things that really need to be addressed, that I truly have begun to fear that our great nation may be on the verge of a hamstringing.

3. I am not an elitist. Never have been. Never will be. In fact, I am sitting here right now listening to my favorite country music station while I type this stuff. And I admit to loving that music. (But I digress. Someday maybe we can talk about country music in another thread. I really want to do that.)

But anyway, I just want to say this:

Those of you who are such big fans of Sarah Palin are doing her a great disservice by not recognizing how the girl needs to be workin' it. She keeps going after the votes she already has. There is a big duh factor in that on the part of her advisors.

In fact, I find her vernacular speech and her head cheerleader rah, rah to actually be a condescention on her part. There is something that rings completely condescending -- on her part. Irony, huh.

On this board, there are a lot of women who were on the cusp of the women's movement. We learned to play the game. And we laid the semi-victory in the lap of the generation of women who followed us.

We were the navigators. And one of the things we learned well, if we wanted to "overstep" those boundaries, was to act like the job we wanted to have. That is what Sarah Palin is not doing. And why her advisors do not have sense enough to show her how that is done, I do not know.

So even though I am not a fan of Sarah Palin, I know that many of you are. And I really want to let you know that she is not playing to win. And why nobody knows that, I do not know. Probably she has no women advisors who are of an age to know.

Sarah Palin already has the votes she is going after and going after and going after. What Sarah Palin needs is me.

Boomer

Personally, I could care less if the Presidential or VP candidate is male or female, their age, race, religion or other personal trait. I want the better of the teams in office based on their skills and knowledge, including experience.

There has been a lot made about "the first black candidate," having a 'woman" on the ticket, being "too old for the job" and whether race/gender/age should sway votes. i would hope that we've gotten beyond all that as being not applicable to the hiring process. A lot of sweat and effort has gone into protecting people from such bias in the hiring process (and an election is a hiring process), and we can either walk the walk regarding race/gender/age bias or accept the fact that it's just talk which we really don't apply when things are "important."

Equal opportunity means blinders are in place regarding race/gender/age when somoeone applies for a job, even if that job is President or Vice President. If we believe in it, then skills, knowedge and experience rule. If we don't, then it's a prejudice contest, and we need to recognize we are not as bias-free as we like to believe we are.

Osh, when you aspire to the highest office in the land we do expect you to use proper grammar and diction. That is not elitism. How low do you think the bar should be set?
Yes , I know she is running for VP, but there is a distinct possibility she could be POTUS.

Well said Boomer.....
 

where I differ significantly from many others is, I don't want to see the candidate (any of the 4) "act" the job.

From my corporate days I saw too many "actors"....they usually got hired (not by me or anybody who worked for me).

My preference....show me the real person. Let 'em talk off the cuff. Find out what they are about. Discover their accomplishments. Check out the accomplishments with those affected by them. See what their prior constituency has to say about them (notice how for both McCain and Obama nobody ever talks to the people they supposedly did so much for).
Back in corporate America we did not have the media to distract us with fluff/BS/made up presentations/acting......so we alway were able to get the better candidate.

Too bad politics doesn't work that way.

No acting for me....I want the real deal to evaluate.

BTK

The Marketing of Sarah Palin, Part II
 

Like I said herein this morning, her image makers are not getting it right. The point I attempted to make was that those who are on the defensive should consider redirecting their anger at Sarah Palin's advisers.

The Republicans treated me in a condescending manner when they thought I could buy in so easily, simply for XX instead of XY in the chromosome department.

And the condescension continues as they allow this woman to sing her one note song and to dance her one step dance.

And just so you know, I would feel the same way if this were a man.

And I guess I just need to embrace the idea that I have been rejected.

But it hurts.

If I ever unearth, somewhere in my files, a most hilarious picture, I may post it on here. In the year 2000, I received a photograph in the mail from W. It was the picture of him dancing with Laura at the inaugural ball. So one day while playing around with a primitive version of some photo program, I superimposed my head on Laura's body. And even though my neck looked a little weird because I could not get the angle exactly right, the picture was lots of fun. And it caused people who saw it to do a double take. Oh, how we danced at the ball in the year 2000. But now I am a woman scorned. And I have felt that way for quite awhile.

And now. . .

I know this girl can gut a moose.

And she sure can gut a party.

Boomer

Trust me, Joe was on his best behavior. I'm sure he was told to go easy on her, otherwise, he would be a "big meany" like the press.

He was a gentleman and she came
off as a twit (who talks like that these days?)

Palin's coaches, right wrong or indifferent....
 

have decided to let her play out as she is. If that doesn't measure up to some hypothetical bar some think has to be achieved...so be it.

I could conclude y'all prefer anybody who can be made up, wound up, programmed, rehearsed to perfection, speech prepared "actor" vs anybody real....based on some of the comments.

If she is a twit then all those representatives that can't reach her level are what? And how did they get the job? They were wound up, programmed, rehearsed to perfection, speech prepared "actors". Who have proven anybody can get elected. And even if incompetent, keep the job....while continuing to do nothing. If she is a twit the others must be morons. Have you ever gone on line to seek out some of these duds.

I hesitate to say it....OK I waited....I think y'all are so partisan it doesn't really matter. As much as I have little time for the bent media, even they give her credit for doing a good job. Now who could they be trying to impress?? Not the media bretheren for sure.

My favorite reminder....as Nancy Pelosi said...it doesn't matter what the subject/issue is... if it is from the other party...I AM AGAINST IT!!!

By the way how did she get her job? See above. Two heartbeats away from being President:22yikes:

BTK

BTK - Pelosi got her job by starting out after college interning for a Senator. She worked her way up through the Democratic Party and was elected to the House in 1987. She has been re-elected 10 times. She has served on the Appropriations and Intgelligence Committees. She was elected House Minority Whip and then Speaker of the House. She has traveled around the world. She speaks more than one language. She has tons of experience for any office she would be elected to.

Huh uh. No way. I cannot spew partisan politics.
 

Why didn't I just stay out of political?

Why am I back in political?

BTK, I understand what you are saying about the coaches and actors and such. I know. But I think what's going on with me is that I must, on some level, be hoping that there is more than just one dimension to Sarah Palin.

I think I have at least managed to make clear that it is that right of right mentality that I cannot abide. I had long ago made up my mind that if McCain ended up with Huckabee, I could not vote for him. At that time, I had never heard of Sarah Palin.

But when trying to see it from a strictly objective viewpoint, I really do think that her advisers owe it to her to at least try a little of the Eliza Doolittle routine. Her supporters should recognize that. Maybe there are other facets that could be polished a little so that they could shine. But I guess maybe that's all there is. I am in white hot terror of that being the case.

I am in such a mess over this.

I am terrified of the Democrats, too. I know a sweet talker when I hear one. And I didn't come all this way to simply be turned into a taxpaying machine, more than ever.

My thinking is cursed because I can raise to an art form playing out both sides of pretty much anything. And that can indeed be quite a curse.

Would that I could spew partisan politics.

Why can't we just have somebody in the middle. I really thought that might be John McCain. I thought that for awhile. With the right VP. I was such an idiot to even think such a thing.

And I just looked back at what I have written in this thread.

And I now see what is going on with me.

It is all so glaringly obvious.

I did not get invited to the party. And I keep going back to my mailbox. Looking for that invitation. Hoping to find it there. Maybe it was just lost in the mail for awhile. Maybe. Maybe.

Maybe I need to get over it. It's time. They never intended to invite me to the party. Nobody did. I am afraid I will just have to stay home.

Would that I could spew partisan politics.

Boomer

Con8757 Thanx for the Pelosi background.....
 

what you have confirmed is she is a thoughrobred(sp?) politician.
There is a progression there without a doubt. The problem I have is she is also an openly professed partisan....she is against what ever the opposition is for!!!!!!

I am a victim of my background.....corporate America. And I am proud to say one of the minority at that. In what way? I had a reputation for being the "hired gun". I fixed companies that were in distress. The usual root cause?
People who had great credentials, like Pelosi. When I went in to save a business, among the first thing I did was a quick evaluation of those in charge/in power. Those who worked their way up....unfortunately too many were not doing what was right for the business. They usually were populist in character. Well spoken. In the industry for years. However they were not making the hard calls that were required to stop the ship from sinking. They were the sort who were rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic when it was going down!!! My first task was always to ID the likes of the tall talking, non contributors. They were in the job TOO LONG. They knew too many resaons why something different could be done. The solution? Remove them. Put some one in who is aggressive. Someone new who DOES NOT KNOW WHY things need to stay as they are. For me CHANGE was an absolute requirement. Experience would show, encumbents with tenure, good people basically.....BUT INCAPABLE OF MAKING CHANGES.

That is exactly what is wrong with our governing bodies. They have been there too long. They have tenure. They are not about to rock the proverbial boat. They know how things work and why. They are NOT capable of doing what needs to be done. They can't. They have too many ....you owe me one in play.

I would take a Palin, rough as a cob, to come in and shake things up. Not McCain. Not Obama (he is a in bred politician too.....too much baggage!!!!!!).

Let's face it. We do not have the best people for the job running for the highest offices in the land. We do not have the best people in the Senate or Congress.....too much inbreeding! They will never get the job done.

The main reason I like Palin....right wrong or any otherwise....she is not an in bred Washingtonian. Is she the one to get it done....unfortunately no. She is only a VP candidate....a second best job with not much responsibility or capability to make change.

So a long winded response....I have no use for any candidate...eother party that is in bred...that is incapable of doing what needs to be done. and I do not subscribe to backing a person because they are my party.

I would bet on a breath of fresh air who is not a part of the existing system.
Someone who will no doubt make mistakes trying to DO SOMETHING VS the ongong do nothing crowd. Partisan politics WILL NOT GET THE JOB DONE.

Every well running business I left for the stock holders usually had very few or NONE OF THE ENCUMBENTS in place.

Washington needs an enema!!!!!!!!

The likes of Pelosi...Obama....McCain are not the candidates to get it done.

I am ranting I know....but it is what irks me no end......defend the party.....no matter what. There is no way that will succeed or change anything.

I am not for Palin as much as I am against the establishment. McCain....Biden...Obama...Pelosi....Reid....et al....!!!!!!!

I also do not believe in voting for the best of the worst....whoever that may be.

I'll take the new broom every time.....however...ther are none running for office. Yes, I would bet on Palin to make changes the others can't. She won't be able to....because the establishment and partisan America won't let it happen.

In corporate America it took paradigm shifts to make things change/happen. It just will not happen in Washington, DC.....NO MATTER WHO WINS!!!!

BTK

BTK

BTK, Was GWB an inbred Washingtonian? He was supposed to be a breath of fresh air.
Osh, when comfortable with people, I speak very much like Sarah Palin. I wouldn't consider speaking in such a relaxed way if I was running for Vice President of the United States of America. Many people on this site know me personally. I doubt any would call me an elitist. This isn't about dialects, darlin'.

Boomer.....first of all, MY comment on elitism brief as they were, were not simply about Gov Palin. In that regard,my problem is that we could make fun of Sen McCain's age, crippled arm, rich wife....Sen Obama's large ears, etc......Sen Biden and his numerous errors when speaking. We could talk about each of them and their politics, but this particular board has had more threads about Gov Palin's family (all of them) whether she shoud stay home (that arguement propped by personal child rearing stories)...her exposing her children to sun in The Villages, and various other perceived traits...including her accent (which by the way is normal for where she lives, and I suppose that eliminates any native Alaskans for office) grammar (errors they all make,except when using that teleprompter :))......in my mind that is the issue in this regard.

You can mock her, BUT she has been a successul mayor....Governor of a state for two years and frankly the candidate for President cannot say that.

I already told you in a previous thread how I feel politically so wont even repeat that...we share a lot of the same fears.

I, for one, will not dismiss anyone because of her sex, size of family, grammar, accent, or any other perceived weakness. That goes for her or any other candidate.

I am also anti establisment....while all know I will vote for Sen McCain BECAUSE of his opponent and NOT because he is who I want to be President...I am so very upset at him on the bail out vote filled with pork.

Sorry for rambling and not making sense but I needed to at least post on this !

Sam,

Could you please explain to me why nobody gets that? I keep trying to explain it, too. They defend it. They shout names. (I have made two of my friends and two of my relatives pretty mad at me -- so far. Maybe that is why I keep ranting on here. Maybe I can get it all out of my system so that I can behave better in person. I really do like to get invited places.)

But something is so very wrong with this picture. The handlers must want her to act that way. And that very thought, in and of itself, is terrifying from so many different angles.

You and I both know that the woman who enters an important meeting is quite a bit different from the woman who is just hanging out in a casual setting. Yet, both are the same woman. And there is nothing deceptive about being able to do that. It is partly about nuance and the ability to project the understanding and command of an important situation. And we all need every advantage we can get when things get tough. No matter how subtle those advantages may be. And as President of the US, well, the stakes can't get a whole lot higher than that. It would be tragic to see the President of the US dismissed as being in over her head just because of the image she puts forth.

So like her or not, she is being done a great disservice by her own people.

Oh, well.

I have heard that if I can stop beating my head against the wall, it will feel so good.

Boomer

The rain in Spain falls mainly in the plain. . .and I am becoming totally insane. . .

Best advice I ever got in business was to be myself and never be phoney or try to be phoney ! For what it is worth :)

More people watched the VP debate than watched the last Presidential debate. Anderson Cooper said that twice as many people watched the Vice Presidential debate than watched the finale of American Idol, which commands a huge audience. And they weren't watching the VP debate to see what Biden had to say.

OK, OK, call off the attack dogs. My only point is this ..

Whatever negatives you have to say about Sarah Palin, her accent, her mothering abilities, her blunders with Katie Couric, her lack of knowledge on foreign affairs and the economic situation ..... you can't deny that she is a colorful character and she shoots from the hip! People can't wait to see what she does next, how she looks, whether she makes any blunders, etc. She has invigorated the election process. She has charisma and people are drawn to her.

Palin may not be the next vice president, but I'll betcha she'll be on the Washington scene for a long time to come.