Assault on Free Speech
 

HERE IS A PHOTO OF THE FIRST RIOT CONTROL SQUAD OF THE HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY SHERIFF'S OFFICE. I AM THE THIRD PERSON from the right. This was a training session that was photographed by a Tampa Tribune photographer.

My usual assignment was behind this line, carrying a rifle, with the assignment of Counter-Sniper.

I really thought we had seen the last of the need for riot control after the close of the Vietnam War. That was before the rioting in Charlottesville, Virginia, last week.

Now I am watching on TV a small "Free Speech" event on Boston Commons which has a counter-demonstration of over 15,000 "Black Lives Matter" and "Antifa" marchers who object to the Free Speech provision of the First Amendment, and are working to OUTLAW FREE SPEECH if they deem it to be "Hate Speech."

I support the Constitution.

Carl in Tampa
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Because when the TRUTH is told...it makes them look VERY bad. When the truth is told it makes one wonder...why do we keep them around?

It's the SAME here...they have NOTHING to counter my facts so they attack ME and they try to BAN my facts from being told...calling it "hate speech".

There is NO equality between blacks and the other races because blacks are not the same as the other races. We ARE different species with different ancestors and different genetics. We are up to 5%, 1/20th DIFFERENT genetically.

It will only get worse as they grow in numbers they're already the majority at 51%...it's WHY they're getting so vocal and getting so much attention. As the minorities grow in numbers and have more and more of "their kind" elected...expect things to get worse...ALL "white" reminders being removed...replaced by minorities. Tubman on the $10 bill.

Just a bit of a different perspective on WHY they are there. Does not seem to be a protest against, as you say "object to the free speech provision.."

From the Boston newspaper...sorry, you were not covered..
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BOSTON -- Thousands of left-leaning counter-protesters marched through downtown Boston on Saturday, chanting anti-Nazi slogans and waving signs condemning white nationalism ahead of a rally being staged by conservative activists, just a week after a Virginia demonstration turned deadly.

Police Commissioner William Evans said Friday that 500 officers -- some in uniform, others undercover -- would be deployed to keep the two groups apart on Saturday. Boston's Democratic mayor, Marty Walsh, and Massachusetts' Republican governor, Charlie Baker, both warned that extremist unrest wouldn't be tolerated in this city famed as the cradle of American liberty.

Walsh said at a news conference Friday that the city has spoken to the Southern Poverty Law Center, which provided guidance on how to handle conflicts with white supremacists, CBS Boston reported.

Organizers of the midday event, billed as a "Free Speech Rally," have publicly distanced themselves from the neo-Nazis, white supremacists and others who fomented violence in Charlottesville on Aug. 12. A woman was killed at that Unite the Right rally, and scores of others were injured, when a car plowed into counter-demonstrators.

Police confined the "Free Speech" rally to the Parkman Bandstand on Boston Common as they blocked off the massive protests, CBS Boston reports.

The Boston Police Department announced at 1:30 p.m. that the "Free Speech" rally had ended."
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Boston "free speech" rally ends after counter-protesters take to streets -- live updates - CBS News

Nothing is quite as simple as you post it.

I honor and respect the first amendment, but as most decent Americans do, am hesitant to support white nationalism, although it is also protected.

Just think, under the current circumstances, without perspective, you post could be inflammatory.

Or...do you support "white nationalism" ? I am on the record clearly as opposing any such thing as a Nazi movement (see white nationalism)

Your post doesn't make sense to me. As you posted above, the rally was a free speech rally whose organizers specifically distanced themselves from said extremist groups. So what exactly was the purpose of the counter-protesters from your perspective? Not sure I'm understanding what you are trying to say. Will everyone now, who supports free speech, be considered an extremist?? If so, our country is surely changing before our very eyes.

NONE of the protestors stood against "free speech" as was the OP s remarks. Neither side.

THAT was my complaint. I still am not sure of WHY the rally in the first place. So close to that disaster in Virginia does not make sense but not judging anyone except for the presentation of the OP.

To characterize either group as marching against "free speech" is just wrong.

Sorry...that is how I FEEL......I realize on this white nationalist site, that is not received well because the reasons and motives for the rallies seem to take on a "skin color test" all by itself, and that may be wrong but on this forum.....white guys = good.....black guys = bad ALWAYS.

It is to be expected here, but does not make it any easier to accept.

AND the identity politics that you guys keep talking about looms here doesnt it, but of course it is all the fault of one group....certainly hot the white nationals. Do I sound bitter ? Sorry......7 months is very tiring thus far for me and the whole country.

PS.....some of the tee shirts worn by the protestors read "stop white genocide"......gee.......and our President tweeted...."Looks like many anti-police agitators in Boston" was there any credence to that accusation ? Serious question because all the signs that I could see were white nationalist type signs, but I was not there.

Let us further understand more background on this march and the group who fostered it.....

Sponsored by Boston Free Speech.

This same group had an earlier rally...

"On May 13, a group of veterans, ex-police, Tea Party Republicans and young people affiliated with the self-described "alt-right" -- a conservative faction that mixes racism, white nationalism, anti-Semitism and populism -- gathered around the Common's historic Parkman Bandstand."

In that really in May....

"Speakers like Augustus Invictus, a political activist from Florida, used their speaking time to encourage attendees to arm themselves for another civil war."


Same organizers for this event, of which you speak as if they were not politically motivated and extremists.

Who Might Attend The Boston '''Free Speech''' Rally? A Look At One In May | WBUR News

Don't feel badly. If you follow the political threads you'll note his posts run on ad nauseam. He is unable to summarize, and has a habit of coloring and highlighting those words which he feels you must read and comprehend. In other words, he will dictate what you must believe. So much for free speech.


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Which part is over your head.

This is supposed to be presentation of facts. When do you begin ?

Sorry..ALL over your head.

You are able only to engage in sub teen back and forth, attacking personally, berift of facts. Must be boring to not know anything, nor obviously have a desire to learn anything

Sometimes that happens when people get no respect at home.

When you understand what this group stands for, and you have our President calling the other marchers "anti police", you understand the fear in this country.

There seems to be no truth.

I know you folks are of the white nationalist type, but let me advise you of the mood in the 1930s

What was the mood in the 1930s? Please share. It's nice to hear these things 1st hand to really appreciate them.

Hey, didn't mean to get you all in a tizzy. Just trying to understand your point. I guess my mind is too simple - you know, "sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me" mentality. I don't get the big deal about people protesting about anything as long as they aren't taking action that is violent or physically harmful to others, and that to me would include destruction of property. I find that groups that promote hate toward others to be disgusting. But it unnerves me as well to go down the path of limiting anyone's right to free speech no matter the content because the problem then becomes how far do you take that and who becomes the judge as to what is acceptable and what is not.

BFD

Your Antifa crap was not heard of until last week.
Your president (not mine) represents all that Adolf Hitler represented in 1933. Read your history books, Mr. Former Policeman.
Once again, BFD.

"The violent white nationalist rally in Virginia has reawakened simmering fears of American fascism. But the roots of these feelings — and the militant organizations that promoted them — did not begin with the election of President Trump. The last time fascism was brazenly embraced was in the 1930s. The lessons of that crucial decade bear increasing relevance for modern American life. The three big factors that drove the spread of American fascism at that time are still relevant for America today."

These are the three reasons fascism spread in 1930s America — and might spread again today - The Washington Post

Or, you read...



The New White Nationalism in America: Its Challenge to Integration......Carol Swain

"Hitler's American Model: The United States and the making of Nazi Race Law...James Q. Whitman

My memories of WW2 are of a child. My knowledge is of an adult. The atrocities which had as a forerunner, a white nationalist movement with a leader who attacked everyone. It was a horror. So many died and suffered.

You folks on here seem to be very comfortable with defending on a false premise, Nazi signs, hate slogans, brown shirts, the President having young boys chant his name at a rally.

You know the background and you still....excuse me with the YOU...not personalizing it, but nobody on here criticizes this white nationalist movement, steeped in the Nazi movement. Same uniforms, same chants and same attacks on media.

"(CNN)Across the country, flyers are showing up on college campuses.

Some promote blatant neo-Nazi rhetoric, others are much more subtle.
"Protect your heritage." "Let's become great again." "Our future belongs to us." "White people, do something." "Serve your people."

They represent a less extreme white supremacist movement targeting the young and educated.
"They're racist, but they have fancy new packaging," said Brian Levin, director for the Center of Hate and Extremism at Cal State San Bernardino. "They learn to downplay the swastikas and get a thesaurus, so instead of white supremacy they use words like identitarian. It's just a repackaged version of white nationalism."

"A resurgence of white nationalism": New report shows hate groups spiked in 2016 - CNNPolitics

Look at this thread. Not a mention of the base force behind the rally. Not a mention of their beliefs.

BUT an immediate rejection of those opposed. This is EXACTLY like the 1930/40s

I do get in a tizzy seeing the brown shirts and nazi placards

Your disrespect of a man who served our country in so many ways says everything we need to know about you.


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Such a stupid stupid post. I know of many folks on here who have served far and wide, over and beyond. They just dont share it with you, and they, in some cases were drummed off this forum by people like you

Had to come back to add. Back a few years with the older political forum, we had a poster who was heavily decorated war hero from Vietnam. He never talked about it, but he and I shared a coffee at Starbucks one day, and found he served with a very good buddy of mine (a medic with a few medals himself). I mentioned him to my buddy in an email and he shared that this guy was a true hero, but never did anyone know that on the forum, and he had chances in discussions to bring it in, but never did.

Point is, everyone should respect Carl's service, but many on this forum have given more than you know.. disagreeing with someone and pointing out errors made is NOT disrespect, and Carl would be the first to tell you he deserves nor more respect on here than anyone. Judge on words and truth.

On the thread subject....our President tweeted this today about the situation in Boston...


"Looks like many anti-police agitators in Boston. Police are looking tough and smart! Thank you."

Does anyone have information as to what he is talking about ?

Who was anti police and how was that shown ?

This was a tweet from a reporter there...

"Just spoke with Boston Police Commissioner William Evans. He says things are going really well."

Leadership ?

Against Free Speech
 

I will address the three points that I have highlighted in yellow.

1. OF COURSE the point of the counter-demonstration is to suppress Free Speech. The counter-demonstrators use the threat of violence, and actual violence, to break up the group they are demonstrating against.

2. The organizers of the rally distanced themselves from the White Supremacist groups. Note that the niece of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. appeared on TV before the rally in support of the rally. She is not a White Supremacist.

Having said that, if some event (not this one) was the most virulent, disgusting, White Supremacist rally to ever be seen, it is still protected by the First Amendment. They still have the right to speak under the provisions of the First Amendment as decided by the Supreme Court. The Court has said that the First Amendment’s tradition of “protect[ing] the freedom to express ‘the thought that we hate’ ” includes the right to express even “discriminatory” viewpoints.

No "counter-demonstration" should be allowed to prevent the Free Speech of another group with a different viewpoint. That's why the Police show up.

3. You make a grave mistake when you equate my support of the First Amendment with support of White Nationalism. Actually, I know that you know better. You are just trying to make me angry by insulting me.

As in other cases, I wonder if you would be equally rude if you were speaking to me in person, or are you capable of exchanging ideas without sinking in the mire of personal insults?

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Carl in Tampa
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I take great pride in not being rude, UNLESS responding to such.

My response to you was to simply put into context, what in my opinion was a misleading post, criticizing one group of people without investigating or posting any information on a group that by its own words is in support of white nationalism and who was a large part of Charlottesville.

How do you select what group is demonstrating against free speech ?

You seem, to me, to have made that judgement quite quickly.

Yes, and I did no accuse you if one thing relative to white nationalism, except to point out that this forum is easily 80% white nationalists.

I have been around for quite some time Carl....I am not a novice, I know the buzz words, notice as you and Rubicon discuss "identity politics" that is a favorite among the white nationalist groups. Not aimed at you, but please don't lecture me; you are not the only poster on here.

I rely on accurate information, not implication. I support my points of view with facts, not innuendo. Your OP was extremely misleading, and I took exception. So, that's it...alll the slights you think you see may not have been aimed at you after all.

Again, I am not a novice. I KNOW what white nationalist say, and what they do not say. Our President today labeled a group as "anti police agitators" and that is another buzz phrase, as you SHOULD know. That was uncalled for, and frankly I am concerned about this movement that closely mirrors naziism.

As you can read in most posts where someone finally discusses real issues, I endorse American working together, without labels.

On here there is too much labeling and attacking.

This isn't my first rodeo in politics, and I have watched the deterioration of what used to be a respected calling. IN MY OPINION...the current occupant of the Oval Office is a disgrace to our country and the morals that enabled our growth. He is becoming more and more every day a divider...he has yet to make one effort to unite this country. And please, blaming the left is ludicrious..,they are doing nothing and are not organized enough if they wanted.

The latest fiasco (not one person on this forum, nor anyone in the administration has yet to condemn the words used to describe a dead woman from Charlottesville) where we now seem to feel it is fine and dandy to wear brown shirts, wave Nazi flags, shout nazi hate slogans, and I still have in my memory, those little boys being led in a cheers celebrating Trump by Trump. This is not aimed at you, but does not leave my mind. The atrocities of WW2 should never leave our mind

I love this country; I have served this country in a number of ways; I have been privileged to meet many great leaders, and to me we are on such a backslide it scares me.

Oh, your buddy or please..perceived buddy, Rubicon will come on here in the morning and proclaim that all the ills of the world are to be laid at the feet of millions of Americans..,he has already shared that the election if Trump was too late, and from my perspective hearing stuff like that is damn scary.

And don't give me the Clinton/OBama stuff. I don't care because whatever you think, there is NO EXCUSE..ZERO EXCUSE for having a President lie chronically and to attack everyone who might disagree. Attacking someone else cannot be support for lying. There is a difference between supporting someone and giving up standards because you didn't like his opponent (and I sure don't or did support Clinton)

Sorry for the lecture...I am big on truth, context and discussion. Bottom line, I just did not think your OP was honest, not in context and misleading as to intent. Same way I feel about Trumps tweet..,no reason for that.

Ignorance is Bliss
 

You genuinely, honestly, never heard of Antifa until last week?

Really?

I guess you missed them at the anti-World Trade Organization protests in 1999 in Seattle.

And the 2011 Occupy Wall Street "lie in."

Antifa demonstrators have marched in more than a half dozen protests since Election Day in Portland, Oregon, according to police.

Earlier this year, Antifa activists were among those who smashed windows and set fires during protests at the University of California, Berkeley. I would have thought you might have seen that.

Antifa activists were in New York City on May Day.

Over the past year, Antifa members have been involved in clashes across the country and the world, including in Chicago, Philadelphia, Houston, Alabama and Nebraska, and at the G20 summit in Hamburg, Germany.

And..................you didn't hear about them until last week.

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Carl in Tampa
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No offense Carl, but tighten up your replies. This isn't an essay test where you might get a better grade by word count. You are much more succinct on the other side. And much more readable.

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You're kidding.....right?
 

Of course you were rude. And it was obviously deliberate and unjustified.

My original post was not in support of any group; it was in support of the First Amendment of the Constitution. As the Supreme Court has pointed out, hate speech is protected by the Constitution. That doesn't mean that I approve of it, nor does the Supreme Court.

You say that Rubicon and I discuss "identity politics." The use of quotation marks means the use of those exact words. First off, I don't know Rubicon, and we do not communicate privately about our postings. Secondly, I defy you to find any post of mine, anywhere, where I use the words "Identity Politics."

Most of the rest of your post has nothing to do with me or the original post regarding protecting the First Amendment, so I won't bother to address it.

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Carl in Tampa
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I agree
 

No offense taken.

I had already noticed that my posts have been getting very long when I try to respond to each point of some very long posts by others who criticize my posts. I guess I'm going to have to forego pointing out any must their most glaring errors.

Besides, they don't listen and comprehend anyway.
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Carl in Tampa

Just a note...I am not intimidated.

Save your braggadocio and accusations. They are meaningless.

Just speak the truth.

We learn at your feet. Sorry for the "glaring errors". You must tire of us common folks and our links and back up

Antifa (United States - Wikipedia)

A link for the Antifa.

Geez, Rocky, take a break or something. You seem to be taking personal offense to everything posted that doesn't support your ideology /truth, and even posts such as mine where I merely ask for clarification. This is exactly why nothing is getting done in Washington - no one wants to entertain opposing viewpoints and have a real discussion about them. You always say you want real discussion on this forum, then proceed to try to shut down anyone who doesn't agree with your viewpoint! You need to quit hanging out with CNM so much.

Do you want a list of the obscene names I am called on here ? Why, only because I do not support Trump, because I object to lies, and object to being lectured based on made up lies.

The list is rather obscene and has nothing to do with disagreeing in any issue, because issues are not discussed here.


On this site, if you dare disagree with the President, you will be lectured and told how your sin is that you are a "libtard" which is humorous since I am a very conservative conservative. I just believe that truth is important, that hate NEVER is a basis for understanding and agreement, and that leadership requires listening and knowledge.

Sorry to you and all your followers. Maybe lecture the foul mouthed one line smart asses next time you have this need to set people straight.

Assault on Free Speech
 

Probably no worse than these...

George Carlin - 7 Words You Can't Say On TV - YouTube


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It seems you are taking your anger and/or frustration out on the wrong people. I don't think Carl or I, for example, have ever pointed you out in that fashion, yet you seem to have a "beef" on this thread toward us. That's all I'm saying. The one line smart asses, as you call them, come from both sides and I just tend to ignore them because, like you say about yourself, I'd prefer to have a discussion. I try not to support those comments by my refusal to engage, but respect that they have the freedom to say whatever they please. You are not one of those people so I continue to make an attempt to have a discussion with you. If you truly want to have a discussion, and not just with those who agree with your point of view, then it appears you are biting the hand(s) that is/are feeding you so to speak.

I agree Carl in Tampa is one of the posters who gives good information based on his extensive personal experiences. He is one to pay attention to most of the time.

The trolls on here seem to have been muzzled now to a certain extent.

Carl has good posts. What's a troll. Carl did not mention it, what did I miss in his posts.

Assault on free speech?? No, the "conservatives " who wanted to have their "free speech" were the white supremacists and NeoNazis that were in Charlottesville last weekend.

The good people of Boston rallied in a counter march of around 15,000 to silence the racists.

The NeoNazis and white supremacist rally was a failure - and I would hope all the readers agree that was a better outcome than last weekend.

I agree with you. I enjoy hearing from someone like Carl because of his background. I would also enjoy hearing from someone like Carl who might have a different viewpoint. The bottom line is, if we aren't willing to have open minds and a willingness to listen to all viewpoints, we will never get to the truth. I never take someone sharing their background and experience on here as an attitude of superiority. Instead, I feel it gives the reader a better understanding of the information they are supplying and provides some validity to their comments and viewpoints, whether they are on my side of the argument or the other. So, thank you, Carl, and again keep posting!

Antifa is a terrible group who actually advocate violence.

They are the worst nightmare for those citizens who want to protest this presidency. If you live in the world of activists, be wary of who in fact sponsors the rally.

Alt right has been using and blaming everything on Antifa because it feeds their message of...woe is me, everyone is out to get Trump.

On the other hand, everyone in the left will blame the Nazi movement for all marches.

THIS IS THE REASON for my objection to this thread. People are jumping to conclusions about who is who. There are legitimate protests, and both the nazis and Antifa are smart enough and savvy enough to build into whatever they do, a way to blame the other side. In this case, it WAS a Nazi group holding the march, and the folks protesting them was a mixed bag. I do not like generalities, but the organizers announce where they stand as white nationalists before the march and also their involvement in last wekend.

Day and age of Facebook, twitter, etc. make it difficult to know the "players". I just think extraordinary caution needs to be taken before leveling charges.

Exactly.

Only those who are ignorant enough to try to soft-pedal that the vast majority of counter-protestors were there to protest the hate of the KKK/Neo-Nazi's/white supremacists who organized the event...would try to draw ANY type of parallel/equivalency.

You know...like Trump. :oops:



Dan Rather Just Gave The Best Response To Yesterday's Protests In Boston

Excellent post!

:bigbow:

I would not equate the Antifa group-- which looks like a bunch of extremely unorganized youth and youth-in-spirit-- with the skin heads and other neo-Nazis.

Exactly
 

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Carl in Tampa
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