Senior Crime
 

A friend was taken advantage of at a Leesburg auto dealer. Besides Seniors Vs Crime. Any suggestions on recourse?

Depends on the details of what occurred.

I think all auto dealers deceive customers and try to take advantage of them. But, did they do anything illegal?

First question is was a crime committed?

They could file a complaint with the BBB, as noted above you gave no details, so if what ever was done is illegal (like turned back odometer for example), then the local police could be contacted.

The 'CRIME was stealing the trade for $2500 when it is worth $10,000 on KBB trade in value. The CRIME is leasing a $32,000 new car with a Capitalized cost of $47,000, A CRIME lifting $5,000 from the senior woman's pocket. A CRIME to add $5,000 in add on services.
And all legal, as no gun was used

Better Business Bureau, at least it will in the eyes of the public. One of the ladies that play on my mixed team had an issue with an olil change company that tried to soak her for 2k for safety parts on her car. They threatened to call her insurance company and report her! She was a lawyer........she got a free oil change!

I'm sorry that happened to her. But, I'm not at all surprised. That is what car dealers do to people who are uninformed.

This is a classic example of the crap some of these dealers do on a regular basis.

In March I had a trade in worth around 12K on Kelly BB price. In addition, I had a firm price from Carvana for $12,900. When the salesman put the initial together he valued my trade in at 5K. I told him it was absurd and had him go to Kelly on his desk top.

10 minutes later a "sales manager" showed up and now the trade in jumped to 12K. So it's let's see how dumb this guy is and if we can screw him on his trade in we will.

I left.

For what it's worth, give Carvana a shot on a trade in. No cost and you'll have some idea of a trade in value in addition to KBB or whatever else.


I'll skip the details on the bogus add ons.

Thanks for the background, decades ago, my dad had a similar problem, at the time he was able to get to the vice president of the Pontiac division and had a discussion, the problem was cleared up the next day, I think the salesman was fired also.

I agree that it won't hurt to post a detailed complaint on the BBB website. But, I don't think she would have been treated any better at any other car dealer. That is how they do business.

And the dealers name is?

1. This was a friend of yours, so of course you'll be biased. And dealerships are notorious for trying to get the best bang for your buck.
2. You don't know the actual condition of the vehicle, unless you're a mechanic and did a full inspection of it. The Kelley Blue Book provides guidelines, trade-in values are not black and white, they are shades of grey.
3. Didn't your friend do any research on her own? If not, why not? It's her car, it's her responsibility to know - at least within reason - the value of her own vehicle. No crime committed on trade-in value. They offered her a number, she accepted it. She could have walked away from the deal. She chose not to.
4. Leasing the car: when you make payments on a car, you accept that you'll be paying more than the car is actually worth. When you're leasing, you're paying interest. It also includes maintenance costs, which are covered in the lease. You don't buy a $32,000 car and don't expect to do oil changes, tuneups, 6000-mile checkups, exhaust, brakes, and AC checks and replacements, new tires after "x" number of miles, etc. etc. etc. Those things cost money and when you're leasing, they build those costs into your monthly payment. And when the lease is up and you hand the car over, they are not receiving a $32,000 car anymore. It's typically 2-4 years old already and likely worth perhaps half of that, if it's in good shape.

All legal, that's how leases work. No crime committed.

It is a sad and aggravating fact these things often happen to women at car dealers (I believe 60 Minutes, years ago did a story on that) and being a senior woman puts a bigger target on your back. While I wouldn't call her gullible or stupid evidently she was just UNINFORMED. Barring any further details than provided she got what she legally contracted for and the salesman must have thrown a party when she left. She can write to the newspapers, contact "seniors against crime" who couldn't do anything anyway despite evidently there was no crime except for her being uninformed or contact the BBB for "satisfaction" but she won't get much more than that. As posters here ALWAYS write, we need to take responsibility for our own deeds. They probably got her by adding $9000 worth of worthless dealer installed extra to the sticker price. Sorry "your friend" got (legally) bamboozled.

She should have asked someone who knew about car buying to come with her.

Also when you shop for a big ticket item should have some idea of what it might cost.

Do not think a crime was committed though.

For what it is worth, I think it is more common for young people in their twenties to be ripped off by a car dealer than a senior citizen. And, young people are less likely to be able to afford to get ripped off. But, I blame the car manufacturers. They should require their dealers to advertise a fixed price for the cars without all of the games and ripoffs. I actually think it would increase sales and profits.

If it actually worked all the dealers would be doing it. I think it was Saturn who had fixed price, no haggle buying and they aren't around any longer.

It would need to come from the top down. Mandated by all manufacturers. It works for other products, why not cars? I don't think television and appliance manufacturers would be happy if Best Buy and Lowes started hiring sleasy sales people to rip off customers and ask them to pay a "dealer fee". Just my opinion.

I feel sorry for the lady but it isn't an unknown fact that car salesmen will take advantage of an uninformed buyer. Actually there are quite a few jokes about the integrity of car salesmen and lawyers. She should have sought out someone knowledgeable of the tactics used by dealerships.

It’s elder abuse and against the law. There are elder abuse resources you can look up on the internet also an elder abuse attorney. I think contracts are only valid when there is a meeting of the minds.

Ok. No crime. She didnt have to take the offer or make the sale. She did no research before going and didnt get the best price. The old saying, “buyer beware”

Very well said. If youre not doing some research furst, then dont complain afterwards

Buyer beware. Trust everyone, but trust no one.

A few years back we had an older van that the dealer offered us $500.00 for it. I told him, "You must be kidding." We walked out, went to another dealer where we were offered $5000.00 for it. I did my home work before going to the dealer so I knew what our van was worth.

Exactly. Even if someone couldn’t come with her she should have asked for advice. A lady friend of mine is looking at a new KIA. I’ve turned her on to a TOTV thread on the subject and a couple of UTube videos. The dealer both hates and respects her.

That is strictly illegal. That is called price fixing and restraint of trade. It is also illegal for a manufacturer to sell its own vehicle at retail. They have tried in the past thru arm length companies and it has been a huge failure. Ask Ford, GM.
While you may have a desirable point, it cannot be done.

Buying a car, whether new, used or leasing, is always a process of negotiation. MSRP stands for Manufacturers SUGGESTED Retail Price. A person wishing to trade or buy a new car should always have a good idea of what their own car is worth. I just bought a new car from a Leesburg dealership on a trade and the dealer came down $8,000 from the original offer. That's called negotiation.

Try writing a letter to the car manufacturer customer service. In the letter state what happen why you think it was not fair. Tell them what would make the deal better. It can’t hurt and she might get something from it. I have done it in the past and had good results. They generally don’t like to see complaints in writing.

I am sure your friend was the first person to be scammed by an auto dealer. buyer beware!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hey I've got a great idea. Not as good as the one I had last February when I bought a 20-year supply of TP and paper towels from Costco. Now I just have to hope I outlive the supply. Anyway, on to my new brilliant idea - one I'm sure has already be posted a dozen times. Where can Villages seniors get good advice? Right here on TOTV. But how many know that? Probably not that many. TOTV should put together a flyer, piece of paper, document or whatever say once a year. It should be labeled something like Things the Savvy Senior Villager Should Know. In it it should have references to Threads or Posts. For instance: Thinking of Buying a Car? First read these threads or posts. Then they list some threads and more importantly how to find and access them. How about, Considering Cataract Surgery, Need Roofing Repair, A/C Not Working, Toilet Problems, and on and on. Besides giving, at times, good advice to our fellow senior community this flyer (or whatever) could probably increase readership in TOTV, something the advertisers would appreciate. Also, companies that perform services for our fellow residents will figure out that their names might wind up in threads for either good or bad services. This could also be included in the package when a person becomes a new resident. Imagine if this particular lady had read some of the Posts on car buying you'd be reading a post about how I took advantage of a sleazy car salesman. Knowledge is a weapon for the buyer, lack of knowledge is a weapon for the salesman.

My mother in law had the same kind of experience at Jenkins Hyundai. Never again. She was treated very fairly at Phillips Buick.
Only way to stop this practice is get up and walk away .

If all dealers had to do it, it would work. They would have to be satisfied with a fair profit like any other honest business instead of making an inflated profit by lying, pressuring, and scamming their customers. What they do may be legal but that does not make it honest or moral.

when you lease a car you are paying for the time frame in which you have it. It is the value of the vehicle less the residual value (the vehicles worth) when handed back divided by the number of months leased (taxes can be part of the equation as well. You do not pay for the list price of the car. Also most leases do not included any of the maintenance you mentioned above. Car dealers / salesman can be opportunistic to be kind. Typically there are three things involved in a deal like this. 1) price of new auto 2) trade in value 3) monthly payment (interest rate). All three of these should be considered when leasing or buying. If you talk to a salesmen they will tell you surprisingly enough that each individual will worry about just one of these three variables. In this case your friend may have told the salesperson what they are willing to spend each month and they built the deal to match it. subsequently not getting a fair shake. Just a thought.

I wasn't suggesting illegal price fixing. But, the manufacturers could require their dealers to stop engaging in deception and dishonesty when they sell a car. The behavior that car dealers engage in doesn't happen at other retail stores. I think the process will improve eventually because customers will demand it. But, car manufacturers could certainly help. The first deception that all dealers use is to show the customer an "invoice" that is supposed to represent what the dealer actually paid for the car. It doesn't. After that, the deception gets worse.

To me, this is the best answer. The car dealer buys and sells cars, and does so EVERY day. Anyone who goes there is at a disadvantage in the first place. To do so without some sort of assistance, like a knowledgable friend, not prudent.

And leases are taxed monthly.

Remember the Saturn division of GM? The business model was no haggle, fixed prices.

Also, regarding your most recent post; where are all the places you shop and demand to see the invoice of what the retailer paid for an item?

Jenkins Hyundai in Ocala gave me the best price to lease a Sonata. I checked with dealers in Leesburg, Claremont, and Orlando. I was able to lease my Sonata for the same terms as I had leased two other Sonatas in NJ even though almost all Florida dealers have dealer fees ranging from $699 to 1,299, which they do not tell you about until after you have finished negotiating. In ads, these dealer fees are shown in the small print on the bottom of the ads. If you research “Florida auto dealer fees”, you will see that these fees are nothing other than pure profit for the dealers.

Let me ‘splain dealerships to you (car, m/c, boat, etc). Next time you pass by a dealership take a look at it and try to imagine how much it must cost to run that place. It’s huge so the lease or whatever must be huge. How do they pay for that? They have to make a bunch on each car right? No, wrong. The gross profit on the car is usually the least of their concerns. The more, however, the merrier. There are 5 money making machines in a dealership – Sales (new and used), F&I, Parts and Service. First you’re met by the barracuda, the salesman (new or used). He usually gets paid a commission on the gross profit from the sale. So, the more the gross profit the more the commission. A savvy buyer will minimize the gross profit. So how do they pay the bill for that huge dealership? Well, the next step in the process is the Great White Shark, the F&I manager. In most cases he’ll make some good money off the buyer, however, from me maybe a few bucks on the Extended Service Agreement (AKA Extended Warranty). Again, how do they pay the bills? The other 2 departments are Parts and Service. The parts department will generally make at least 40% on all parts sold to customers and to customers through the service department. There is a thing called the absorption ratio. That is the combined net profit of the parts and service departments. A good dealership with have an absorption ratio of 100% or more. What that means is the profit from parts and service are covering 100% or more of the expenses for the entire dealership. So, they didn’t make anything on me in sales and F&I but they’ll make some money from me on parts and service. We know parts makes 40% gross profit but how does service make money. How well a service department does is determined by their productivity and efficiency. Productivity means how much work management is able to bring in. For instance, if they have one technician and he is there for 8 hours and they bring in 4 hours of work then they are 50% productive (should be over 90%); 8 hours – 100% productive, 100 hours – 100% productive - they can’t do more than 8 hours so the maximum is 100%. Next is efficiency. That is the technician’s ability. He may have only worked 8 hours but he may have billed out 16 hours of work. So, he’d be 200% efficient. If he had 8 hours of work and it took him 16 hours to do it, he’d be 50% efficient (get rid of him). Good technicians are usually over 150% efficient. So, the profits in a really well run dealership are not made on how much they got from you on the sale of the vehicle but instead on the ability of the parts and service departments to cover the expenses of the dealership. So don’t worry about trying to bleed them dry on the sale.

And who decides what is a "fair profit"? Do you not notice the difference in prices between Walmart, Public, Winn Dixie, etc. on food products? Where are the set prices here? Using your idea a gallon of milk should be the same price at all stores but that is price fixing and quite illegal. All the extras, the lady mentioned in the OP bought, would be available even at fixed prices. How would fixed prices affect the trade in value on a car allowed by the dealership? Sometimes lessons learned can be harsh.