Golf Cart "driveway" behind Mallory CC to Morse MMP
 

There is a 2 lane wide “golf cart driveway” (can’t think of a better way to describe it) that goes from the back of the Mallory CC parking lot down to Morse MMP which is on a hill overlooking the golf course and about 50 yards away from the course that leads to the driveway entrance to the golf course. This driveway bypasses the narrow blind curve by the tunnel that goes around Mallory CC. Wife and I have walked that “golf cart driveway” every morning for the last 4+ years and we take that path (bypass) to avoid the hill and blind curve by the Tunnel because one time I got clipped by a cart flying around the single lane blind curve while walking. Today a guy in the “booth” near this area (different one than who is usually there who we always say hello to) approached us like he was the King of Golf and told us we can’t walk there because it is “golf course property.” There is no signage that states “no pedestrians” or even that it is golf course property.

ADDED: For the many reading comprehension challenged out there: IT WAS NOT THE STARTER shack guy WHO APPROACHED ME it was the guy in the Parking Lot GAZEBO. The bagman. YA GOTTA READ before you use your keyboard!

Added: There is a sign at that entrance of that cement path FROM the Morse MMP where we walk that specifically tells you to use that entrance path to go to the COUNTRY CLUB AND THE PRO SHOP which also includes the parking lot. The sign does not specify you have to drive there.



While I DO NOT DISPUTE WHETHER IT IS GOLF COURSE PROPERTY or not I do wonder if there is any specific RULE that says pedestrians are not permitted in that cart driveway which is not directly connected to the course in any way? THIS IS NOT ON OR NEAR the course or golf course path itself but up on a hill overlooking the course probably 50 yards down the hill from the course.

Who would I contact to discuss this if I want to question it or suggest they put a "no pedestrians" sign up if it is the case. If you are not familiar with this specific area you would have to see it to understand it's location relative to the course itself (it's nowhere near it).

Edit to add: If they decided to "enforce" this alleged rule what can they do since there are ZERO signs posted stating "no pedestrians" ? Unless it is properly marked what can they do?

And another edit:
Posted signs obviously don't say "keep out private property" but "WELCOME" and not "welcome to only those playing the golf course, or only those driving golf carts."

Just for clarity, is this a concrete path that connects the the golf course path to the golf cart parking at the country club?

And where is the single-lane blind curve on the MMP near the tunnel? Or are you saying that only one lane of the MMP has the blind curve (probably the right turn from the tunnel up to the country club)?

The guy in the "booth" (starter's shack) who acted like the "King of Golf" was 100% right and you were 100% wrong for even being there. That "golf cart driveway" is not part of the MMP, it a golf cart path ONLY, and is entirely contained on the property of the country club golf course. It is most certainly connected to the golf course, and not only is it "near the course, it runs between the practice green and the 9th green of Caroline. Any use by someone other than a golfer who has purchased a greens fee for that day is trespassing. It does not require a "no pedestrian" sign, the fact that golf courses paths are for golf carts driven by those playing is available on multiple sites on-line. It is NOT an "alleged" rule---it is THE RULE, and they can, if they so desire, legally enforce it even without a "sign". And what can they do? They can have the sheriff arrest you. (Not that they ever would, but they could). I don't think the defense of "I didn't know it was private property and that I couldn't walk there" would ever hold up in court.

If I remember that path correctly, it starts in the parking lot near the bag drop and allows golf carts in the cart parking area to access the starter shacks for Caroline and Virginia nines. Amelia can be accessed through the parking lot. So it appears to be very much part of the golf course operation. Since it was apparently a starter that told the OP not to use that path to walk on, I suggest going into the pro shop and have a conversation with the head golf professional.
I would have no idea if walking is permitted there. Good luck getting a satisfactory answer.

No, it's 2 lanes wide concrete "road/path/driveway or whatever" and goes from the CC parking lot PAST the golf cart parking lot which is on the left side heading to Morse basically bypassing the 1 lane each way blind curve by the tunnel. Heading north on the Morse MMP there is a sharp left curve (tunnel is on the RIGHT). The tunel crosses Morse and comes out at the Virgina Trace side of the Morse circle.


See attached photo and direct link to photo because the forum kills the resolution.

Dropbox - Map.jpg - Simplify your life

I think both bagboy and I know exactly the path to which you are referring. It is NOT a "road/path/driveway or whatever". It is a golf cart only path for those playing golf at Mallory Hill Country Club. It is an integral part of the course, on private property, and my response stands, as does that of the Caroline starter.

Like your reply the "King of Golf" who sits in his wooden shack didn't need to cop an attitude with us because he ain't the King but just a low wage employee on a power trip likely filling in for the guy who we always have a pleasant conversation with. There are NICE ways to explain things to those who don't know without copping a 'tude which is SOP around here for many.

ANYWAY, It's an ALLEGED RULE because I have not been able to find it or any such publication of any no public access of golf cart driving areas rules. Please link me to all these rules so I can see where I went wrong. I would appreciate that if they do exist.

As far as trespassing goes, they wouldn't have a chance in heck to "win" on that because no one except a golf maven such as yourself who has evidently read all the rules would know anything about that driveway unless it was marked "no pedestrian traffic" whether they have to or not. I don't play golf so how could I (or any of the dozens of others we see there every day) possibly know you can't walk on a golf cart driveway?

I DO assume it is logical and common sense you can't walk on the golf course itself however not being permitted to walk on a 2 lane concrete driveway that is NOT ON OR NEAR the golf course is NOT common sense to any average person and would be prohibited so they would have a tough time getting a conviction on that without any proper signage posted.

That path sets about 12 feet BELOW the putzing practice green and provides NO ACCESS to it as you have to access it from the cart parking lot or behind the CC and if it did, so what does that have to do with walking?

Please show me where it is posted "GOLF CARTS ONLY." Seriously now, how would ANYONE possibly know that unless it was posted or written somewhere? I know this topic obviously incenses you to no end because you are all knowing about golfing but just relax a second, take a few slow deep breaths and put yourself in the place of anyone (especially non-golfers) who might see a 2 lane concrete "road/path/driveway or whatever" and say "gee, what a nice place to take a stroll." :1rotfl:

It absolutely is a defense and would hold up in court in a second again because of the "what would any logical person think" rule.

Actually, I couldn't care less if you walk there or not. It is not MY private property. You are the one all out joint because the Caroline starter came out and told you that you were walking on the private property of Mallory Hill Country Club. If you think this "incenses me", think again. If you think it incenses that starter, I doubt it, but he is an employee of the golf course. If they allow a non-greens fee holder, non-golfer to walk on their private property, just who do you think is liable if you get injured???? And if you just didn't know, then you just didn't know, but now you do. I don't agree with your "doubling down" on the path as being nowhere near the golf course, and I think you would have a hard time finding anyone else to agree. I would also tend to disagree that ignorance of the law is an absolute defense. That being said, peace.:icon_wink:

I'm enjoying the back and forth here.

You've been here longer than I have but even I have observed that almost all concrete "paths" are golf course paths. There are exceptions, but they are few and they are much shorter than the "driveway."

The "driveway" connects an obvious golf course path with an obvious golf cart parking area, runs next to a golf course, runs along the practice green, and ends at the Country Club: it would take a lot for the "logical person" to miss all those indications that it is part of the golf course.

Ignorance as a defense went out the window this morning when it was made clear (though it should have been clear already) that it is a golf course path on golf course property.

In another post you seem to differentiate between a two-lane driveway and the one-lane-each-way MMP. On Google maps (not the best source but the best I have right now) it appears that the one-lane-each-way MMP is actually wider.

I do remember that right turn out of the tunnel being a bit blind but there are far worse blind corners at nearly every gatehouse.

If walking on the two-lane driveway which happens to be a golf course path is okay then wouldn't walking on the other golf course paths be okay too? And further, if paths are not off limits then why would *any* of the golf course areas (greens, fairways, etc) be off limits - why can't we walk on any of that? If the reason is because those areas are reserved for golf course use, then that reason applies to the concrete "driveway" as well.

And finally, what does it really hurt if someone walks on that path when not carrying a bag of clubs? Sure, one could say, "I'm a golfer and that is for golf course use only!" and while they would be correct, what does it really hurt?

The Villages enforce its golf course trespassing rules to mitigate liability. If your are trespassing and injured by a golf cart driver our hit by an errant golf ball, you may have an injury claim. Unless they enforce their no trespassing rules. Just accept that you are incorrect and move on.

Is the liability any different if you are carrying your bag and get injured by a golf cart driver or hit by an errant ball?

Simple answer to the issue:
Did you talk to the facility manager at Mallory?
Did you call golf administration?

It's not part of the GOLF COURSE (that is a thing in and of it's self). I do agree that It may be part of the golf course and proshop's and country club's property. I have never read any rules that say you can't walk on this type of area and really don't think there are any in writing or "the experts" would have posted them for which I anxiously are awaiting.

And why should I believe what that guy said was authorized by anyone else except himself ? Been doing that for years and no one has ever complained. Also, while it may be a part of the golf course area in general it is NOT a "golf course path" as it is nowhere near or on the golf course at ANY point along it. Most logical minds would think the "golf course path" in on THE GOLF COURSE. This is an "access" point as is the Morse MMP which is closer to the actual course entry. ;)

OK, and what does that have to do with the price of peanuts on the open market?

Yes there are (like going north on the MMP around Stillwater which they just FIXED by taking down all the tall shrubbery) however the issue here isn't the tunnel at all as it has a mostly ignored stop sign it's the carts flying down the hill to continue up Morse and the carts coming up the hill to go up O'Dell. There is no safety area there except on top. Not a fun place to walk especially since I got clipped a number of years ago.

That's a bad anology. Go there and look at it. :) This course is down a large fenced embankment maybe 20 feet high and 50 yards away. One thing has nothing to do with the other. While it may be 100% true no person would logically think it not be permitted unless it was marked as such due to how it is located within the Mallory CC area.

YAY! FINALLY! Exactly my point. :a040::a040:
.... I think well over 4 years doing that should have set a precedent of some sort. :D :D

No, as I have no idea who or what or where they are and did ASK that question in my OP, who to contact. As I mention, we are not golfers.

WILL SOMEONE PLEASE POST A LINK TO THESE "RULES" ??? They don't seem to exist in writing. I believe that when I see it in writing or on a posted sign THEN it is time to "move on." Everything else is just assumptions and quoting of "local rules."

Start with the Mallory hill Pro, Brady Godfrey, very nice person, call him or stop in. He can answer your questions or will refer you to whom to see.

From Golf in the Villages

Safety on the Course
• Golf courses are restricted to golfing traffic only.
• Please refrain from riding, biking, fishing, walking or
engaging in other recreational activities on the courses.
• Pets are not permitted on golf courses or practice facilities
at any time.
-------------------------------------
When you step off the MM into Mallary parking lot you are on golf course property.
Don't see how it could be anymore clearer than that.

In all honesty, I really admire your persistence. You are, of course, DEAD WRONG. Everyone on this thread has told you that you are wrong. The starter told you that you were wrong. Yet, you continue to try to justify trespassing based on such excuses as "I didn't know", or "What harm does it do?" or the best one "It isn't part of the golf course". If you think the MMP approaching the tunnel under Morse at that area is not safe to walk, then WALK ELSEWHERE, BUT NOT on private golf course property. Someone who blades a wedge to 9 of Caroline could conceivably hit you in the head with a golf ball while you are walking on the path.
PS: A golfer carrying a bag walking on that path has purchased a greens fee which means he has agreed to accept the risk inherit in the game. A pedestrian has not.

Looks like entitlement.

Smells like entitlement.

Probably tastes like entitlement.


________________________________.
Fill in the blank.


:crap2:

That explains it all.

Exactly. I wish I had said that instead of the hundreds of words I use to try and explain it.

Now you have seen the rules and where they are posted, time to "move on."

I was thinking of the Executive courses. (I'm not a golfer; don't know which courses are private and which are not). If this is not an Executive course and the golfer has somehow agreed to accept the risks then I do see the difference. (though I still would argue it's a technicality and not a good reason)

OK. Mallory is a championship course. And with the huge numbers of lawyers out there today, I think the liability issue is more than a "technicality".

/// Damn ... keep duplicating posts.

Nice try. :D I actually agree with the specific statement. It says " Safety on the Course" "Golf courses are restricted to golfing traffic only" I am not within maybe 100 yards of the golf course or the paths the golfers use to play golf. So then what you are also saying is that we can't walk through the Mallory parking lot ? I don't see anyone playing golf on that "road/trail/driveway or whatever" OR in the Mallory parking lot. Sounds like "almost pregnant". Can't have it both ways. DEFINITELY would never go onto a (or the) GOLF COURSE.

If you’re a paying player, you accept the risk. The course is not liable, the person who causes the personal injury may be liable.

No more dangerous than eating the food in Mallory CC or getting out of one's car in their parking lot. Lawyers? All they have are "opinions" unless there has been a previous case precedent for the same thing. Maybe I'll get myself arrested!

To quote a famous golfer: :1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

Still???? Over the years I've enjoyed your posts, and while we don't always agree, we agree often enough. However, why can't you see that you are dying on this hill? (Mallory Hill):1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:. That path is a golf cart path, not a "whatever". It is entirely on golf course property, and it is within 3 yards of 9 of Caroline. And since you don't play golf, you can't be expected to know that no one has to play golf on a cart path or parking lot (It's a free drop 1 club length from the nearest point of relief no closer to the hole):1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl: Please accept what everyone is telling you----when you are on that cart path, YOU ARE on the golf course.

Nope. Not even close. No waythat can be considered a GOLF COURSE. Maybe an access "road/trail/driveway or whatever" but thanks for the suggestion. ;) If this topic annoys you there is always the dog pee topic. :D

Go to Golf The Villages there are lists of courses so you can learn.
There really are no “private”courses.

LOL, I love getting you all wound up doc. It's too easy! :) You should know you will NEVER convince me by just "saying" it. 3 yards? Where ? You really don't need to reply as you seem to be getting frustrated and really should get some "relief" from this thread. ;) Going out for a while, can't wait to get back. Just think of all the traffic this is generating for TOTV.

di

Did you go and speak with the pro at Mallory? If not why not?

No point---he just stated we can never convince him.

Then someone with authority would give him the answer to his question, and that’s not what the OP wants to hear.

Not wound up, and not the least bit frustrated. Where? Actually, if you look at the satellite view close up it appears that that path comes 8 feet from the practice green and less than 3 feet (+down from the wall) from 9 of Caroline. I would normally say that I am amazed that someone who doesn't play knows so much more about a golf course than golfers that play it frequently, as well as a manager from another facility. However, I am now convinced that you are being deliberately obtuse for reasons that the rest of us can only speculate about.

A lot of people here have given you suggestions, you don't seem to want to hear any of them. So why ask for answers here if you won't take them, call community watch, call the district, but nothing anyone said here seems to please you.

Thanks. Don’t really need to know unless there will be a test later but good to have a reference.

Private/Championship/Not part of my amenity fee - all the same to me. I suppose I could ask what the difference is between private ownership and Developer ownership but it really doesn’t make much difference - their money, their property, their rules.

That seems to be the case.