Golf Courses-What do we do?
 

There have been many threads this spring about the deplorable exec and champ course conditions. In my experience, the executives are worse than they’ve been in the last few years, the champs are as bad as the have been historically (albeit not good, just about the same as the last few years). For example, Havana has been bad the last few years.

WHAT DO WE (as residents) DO?
email the paper?
Email someone in the developer’s org?
Email someone in the districts org (or some other home owner org)?

We should be coordinated;; i.e. the same message to the same group of people.

Any ideas?

For the executive courses, make your feelings known at a PWAC or AAC meeting and possibly also at a SLCDD or VCCDD meeting.

PWAC and AAC are advisory boards with resident members.
SLCDD and VCCDD are developer-elected boards which actually control the amenities

Any necessary actions need to be taken by the SLCDD or VCCDD but the PWAC and AAC can advise the xxCDD to take those actions.

Want to improve conditions on the executive courses ? Decrease demand :
1 - Build more executive courses in the south
2 - Have them lower the high season prices on the championship courses !

Both suggestions would yield positive results, but don’t hold your breath waiting for those to happen. The suggestions in post #2 are a more realistic approach.

The absolute most effective way to see results would be for prospective home buyers to back away from purchasing and leave strong feedback that the reason is both poor/inconsistent golf conditions and difficulty getting T Times on the Executives.

Perhaps 3 - Limit the number of tee times to reduce wear and tear

If the amount of traffic is causing the degradation of the courses then decrease the amount of traffic. Yes, everyone resident is entitled to free golf on the executive courses as part of the amenity fee. Everyone also is entitled to sit in the squares but there are a limited number of seats and there are times when people get turned away. The same could be true for the courses - if the heavy usage of the courses is what is causing the poor conditions then reduce the usage by turning (more) people away. There will certainly be complaints from those that are turned away but unlike today, the courses should be in better shape for those who do get to play.

Yes

Take a day off playing Championship Courses and hold a monster GOLF CART PARADE!

You people doing the most complaining about the conditions are probably the ones that never fix ball marks, never sand divots, never rake traps, drive through wet areas, pull right up next to the greens, drive between the traps and the greens, pull off the cart path pulling up to the tee box - anyone want to add anything else?

Yes.

While all those have an effect, they are behaviors that golf courses everywhere, deal with and have for the history of golf.

Those problems aren't isolated to The Villages and not the major cause of the horrendous conditions on many of TV's golf courses.

What to do
 

Take a page from the political folks. Put signs on your golf carts saying "Golf Courses Here, Yuck:yuck:," and then parade around the sales centers. We'd probably be cited for violating some law or rule, but the news people from Ocala, Leesburg and Orlando could have an interest in the story. It's doubtful whether our local paper would.

Are you suggesting the local paper is biased? :a20:

Local paper
 

I was being cautiously diplomatic.

None of the above have anything to do with the conditions at Tarpon Boil, Redfish Run, Evans Prarie, Havana, etc. You can't even blame El Nino.

The Arnold Palmer Invitational begins this week, in Orlando.

It will be televised. It will be interesting to see how El Nino affected that golf course, 40 miles away. I bet El Nino spared Bay Hill.

That’s kind of harsh, go drop $75 of your hard earned $$ playing Evans or Havana and tell me the conditions are not worthy of being upset. Something not good is going on, in many years of being a Villager those kind of conditions have never existed before.

Yes! As long as you mean a real newspaper like the Orlando Sentinel or the Ocala StarBanner and not the pretend one that many of us get delivered every day.

How to get action? Think like someone researching the villages....
 

Those in control know the situation. Key to get results is to be calm and always start public comments with "In my opinion....." Avoids legal threat. Post comments on facebook pages as replays, not new topics and post photos. Search as one considering the villages would on the internet and comment on those sites, again... with your opinion.

Sounds like the goal is not to get the CDD's to spend our money and raise our fees but to get the developer to change their procedures... in the areas being developed now. That will allow those in the deep south to play on new courses instead of making the trek north... on the multi modal paths.

Don't show outrage. Show disappointment.... In my opinion, this is not the Villages I expected......It is a shame how things, like the conditions of the golf courses and the shift to pitch and putts has changed the Villages. I never expected to not be able to get a tee time during the week or get a tee time on a course where, in my opinion, greens are worst than municipal courses I use to pay 35 dollars for before I moved here.....

Give those looking the questions to ask... what are my changes of getting a tee time on a Saturday during January? If I were looking at the villages I would ask for a tour of the courses (name them) before buying.... the new course by the turnpike is not the one you will be playing most weeks.....

Behavior changes when the pocket book is impacted.

Have you looked in to Sun City Center outside of Tampa? Courses were sold to a third party and now many have closed... the new owner wants to build more homes on the old courses. Very sad. Also the reason I did not consider that development. I found out via comments left on sites.

We have purchased our homes. Our leverage is near zero. But if our opinion starts to cause buyers to ask specific questions of their Villages realtor....Boom... changes will happen.

More like stop wasting money. We are paying a contractor to maintain the course and they are not.

Executives are closed and courses have to re furnished. They are just killing the grass and re-seeding.

While your reply is true, I do not believe other courses deal with the huge numbers of rounds played each day as we do in TV. We often hear comments about how "my course up north". 1) you are playing your course during prime grass growing season and 2) your course is probably luck to get 70-80 rounds in a day where each course here both exec and champ get 230-260 rounds per day.

During the long days of summer, each of the 5 courses at Bethpage, including the black get 420 rounds/day. Same is true at Eisenhower Park's 3 courses. Private courses likely get much less play. Many courses in our area are fully booked as well, so "huge numbers of rounds played" is not a phenomenon unique to The Villages. I've been saying for 10 years---just recruit the greens superintendent from Julliette Falls and pay him whatever he wants, there doesn't seem to ever be bad conditions there.

I'm a golfer who attempts to play executives twice a week. I truly like the idea of limiting the number of tee times to reduce the impact of heavy play. Even though I sometimes get shut out for tee times, if the quality of play is enhanced by good playing condition, I'm all for it. Putting on mostly dirt or weed infested greens just doesn't add to my enjoyment.

It’s not heavy usage, it’s El Niño.

I’m not a golfer yet, but I do read these threads out of curiosity. While watching a live Q&A show on YouTube with Don Wiley (Gold Wingnut) a week ago he was asked about the poor condition of many of the courses. He said TV is dealing with a serious fungal infection on many courses and working on it, but it’s not an easy fix. This is just my best recollection of his response, not a quote. Since fungus hasn’t been mentioned in this comment thread I’m assuming it’s not common knowledge.

I partially agree. Many courses have heavy usage, it's not a huge factor. Yes, if a course is closed 6 months out of the year and gets about 20 rounds/ day with a huge maintenance staff and expert agronomists(Augusta National), conditions are pristine. But that is the exception. Many courses as I stated in a post just above have heavy play and good conditions.

El Nino has had some effect---just look at this week at PGA National. I've played that course half a dozen times and the rough was always twice as deep and thick as this year---grass needs sunshine to grow. But that's not the whole story either.

And neither of these explain the difference in conditions say between Glenview and Havana

My take is:
#1) We need expert agronomists and to pay expert golf course maintenance companies rather than lawn care companies. With over 1,000,000 rounds/year on champ courses and an average of say $60/round, the money is there. Just do the math: It takes about $500,000 to maintain 9 holes in excellent condition, we currently have 36 "9's" of champ golf, so that would be $18M out of $60M. Employees, full and part time, let's say the equivalent of 20 FTE's each on 13 courses (5 office workers, 3 managers, a pro, 3 starters 2 ambassadors=14 x 50% more hours than full time for weekends and long days) and a generous average of $20/hour= 13x20x2,000 hrsx$20/hr= $10.4M/year. Now were up to 28.4M out of the $60M in greens fees. Overhead for building maintenance, cart paths, parking lots, electricity, HVAC? No idea, but I would doubt more than $10M/year. Even if these assumptions are off, there is still $21.6M of play room. IMHO, this is very "doable"

#2. We need golfers, meaning ourselves, friends and neighbors without exception to take care of the courses. Fix more ball marks than you make. Fill an extra divot or 2. Rake a second set of footprints. If you have a CAP it is not carte blanche to drive anywhere you please.

Golf course maintenance needs a massive overhaul!
 

If the overall maintenance of all golf courses hasn't hit rock bottom, we are darn close! The maintenance budget seems incredibly low, and the processes are lacking.

The bermuda grass doesn't grow during these cold winters. Coming from Arizona, golf courses are overseeded with lush green rye grass. Courses are watered and fertilized regularly. They are mowed at least weekly. Greens are growing grass and are free of weeds and clumps. On many courses in The Villages, we putt on dirt that is painted green. And it's like playing pinball with the balls bouncing off clumps of weeds on the greens. Nothing grows during the winter with the type of grass we have.

We overplay all courses during the winter season because the developers (grandchildren) haven't kept up with supply and building enough golf courses to keep up with the exploding homes and population added over the past five years. Just take a drive over to Eastport and watch the homes being built. If only the developers would add sufficient courses in the same manner as they expertly add homes in our community.

Golf courses in this active community is one of the ingredients of the "secret sauce" attracting more baby boomers to The Villages enabling the developers to sell more and more and more homes. They seem to be tone deaf on the issues of (1) PROPER PROACTIVE course maintenance and (2) under supply or not building enough golf courses. The addition of 4 executive and 3 championship courses in Eastport is a start. It won't satisfy the current excessive demand nor will it handle the growing demand for tee times during The Villages 'season' as new homes are added by the thousands.

It appears the developers are detached from these issues (poor course maintenance and too few courses built to meet the growing demand). We must mobilize and promote this problem (if you will) in The Villages. It will take this community action from us residents to impact home sales that will FINALLY get the attention of the developers. If potential buyers become aware of these shortcomings of the poor golf course management, it might impact home sales to get them to take action. This movement by the residents needs to gain momentum, and continue to publicize this massive failing grade in The Villages right now. It will take years to correct this problem.

For those who care about improving the golf course problems, please continue to get this message out!!!!!!

Play outside the bubble on beautiful courses and save a few bucks in return
 

Some courses outside TV come with carts and lunch included.

The quoted statement is almost...not quite, but close...to being an oxymoron. If courses were as bad across-the-board and some people seem to think they are, then it would be logical to expect that there would be MORE tee times available, and consequently less waiting for tee times to open up.

Truth seems to be that conditions vary tremendously from course to course. The proof of this seems to be that the same five or six courses are mentioned time after time after time as being "unplayable". In the past ten days I've played El Diablo, Hilltop and Briarwood. All three were in very good shape with the exception of some mud in fairways. Hilltop in particular had greens that were as good as they could be. El Diablo had a green or two that was a bit spotty but it has come a LONG way from a month to six weeks ago.

Nevertheless it is valid to question what seems to be hit-and-miss maintenance. You can't blame folks if their favorite courses look like hog wallows or weed patches. I've often wondered just what is the mindset driving this. Is it to do just enough maintenance to get by (and thus spend less money) or are the powers-that-be striving for excellence? If it is the former, than the only thing that will get things to change is A) a concerted effort to get golfers' displeasure known, and B) if that doesn't work, hit those same powers-that-be in the pocketbook. How? Maybe be a bit easier on the championship courses (a one-day boycott would get noticed) but not so much on the execs as the amenity fees cover them.

Anyone do a study on short term rental numbers and the impact on the overall number of golf course and amenities usage as far as getting tee times and wear and tear on both?

Not every resident living or renting long term use the amenities at all or everyday.

Short term renters are at T V resort for a visit to use the amenities and to... PLAY GOLF and hang out at the town squares for a couple of days, weeks, or month. Yippee!!

Seems like the deplorable golf courses and tee time issues are a no brainer to me. Think people care about long term resident's pride in ownership and amenity conditions when they are breezing through? "Drive it like a rental".

Golf Course Conditions and Home Values
 

We moved here 10 years ago for many reasons with golf a major reason. This season the courses are by far the worse I have ever seen.
The next ten years will be critical to home values if the courses don’t improve- significantly. They will decline!.
There have been many good suggestions as to what we should do. An organized email, calls etc may get the developers attention

Golf channel broadcast from west palm beach on Thursday announced this at start of the broadcast. Florida has had a cloudy and cool winter, you are going to see worn and bare spots on the course. Mother Nature has been tough this winter.
Add that to our heavy use of the courses and we see the results.
Staff turnover-yes. Poorly trained or supervised staff-perhaps on a course by course basis.

Are all of the conclusions that reside in your head wild guesses- all lacking any evidence whatsoever? Or are all of your other ideas founded upon facts- with this one being the only outlier?

Which brings up another point I've made before. Florida law may prevent communities from regulating short term rentals, but The Villages are under no obligation whatsoever to give guest passes to STRs. Would reduce the problem in a hurry. (Yes, I realize that it is technically not a guest pass but a transfer of owner ID, but no reason that couldn't be changed to exclude rentals of less than 1 month)

Introduce the concept of "limited" free golf.

I think you're fairly close on your numbers. I did a rough analysis last year, backed up by a few quotes I found online as to the # of rounds. I think this year, the Championship courses will do 1.2M rounds (18 hole rounds) at a yield of about $60/round ... about $72,000,000.

With maintenance (IMO, you're little light on budget for 9 holes) at $600K/year and expenses for staffing, overhead, etc, I would put the # just under $1M/year/9 holes. I would consider parking lots, clubhouse maintenance, etc, to be overhead to the Country Club (restaurant). Close enough to your number.

$72,000,000 gross revenue. $33,000,000 CoGS. Throw in 20% margin of error, now we're at $39,000,000 CoGS.

$33,000,000 gross profit. 45% Profit. Not bad work if you can get it.

Yes----limited to owners and renters of 30 days or more, as well as their guests. Not much of a limitation except for the Airbnb's and other STRs. Residents other than golfers would benefit as well---less crowding on pickleball courts and other activities at the Rec Centers such as exercise classes. Just how attractive would a STR in The Villages be if all you could do is stare at the four walls?

And although I would like to see them lower the high season prices, how is that going to improve the conditions of the courses. There would be more of a demand than there is right now!

TV Leadership is Aware of Golf Course "Condition" Issue
 

The Villages Leadership is Aware of Golf Course "Condition" Issue, so they need to act. The VP employed by The Villages who is responsible for Golf Course Management should be FIRED! Their replacement will (1) Make necessary Organizational Changes, (2) Establish Priorities and (3) Direct & Empower those directly responsible for maintaining Golf Courses in good, playable condition. With the right leadership, this can be accomplished within the current budget. Of course, those of us playing the courses need to do our part by fixing divots and ball marks.

A simple sign at the starters shack and on the Ambassador's cart stating:

'Reparing All Divots and Ball Marks Is Expected'.

Simple and little cost.

Here’s my take — greens are the main issue, far outweighing bad fairways, bunkers or tee boxes, so;
1) grounds management need to focus on recovering the greens,
2) close courses that are awful — haven’t seen Tarpon Boil on the close list & it’s greens are horrible
3) open Southern Star & Yankee Clipper to offset closures — rode by both of these on Wednesday, they look in fabulous shape!
4) get building new courses in the south, across the turnpike there is plenty of open space. No more pitch & putt or putt-putt courses are necessary.

🤞

Add to that the increased number of total slobs that do not repair ball marks, fill divots with sand and rake traps. I repair an average of about 3 ball marks per hole, over the course of 9 holes. Not a solution to everything but being a good steward of our community will only enhance our lifestyle. Do your part!

It’s not wear and tear but loss of grass on the greens that’s causing dissatisfaction this season. Greenskeepers need supervision and training. They need to hand-water tee boxes and kill weed grass before it spreads. They need to stop excessive aeration (punching) of the greens!!