Heat pumps - Mitsubishi vs Carrier
 

I have been on this forum for a long time, but post little. I need your help. So we've been in the Bubble for 3 years, and I am looking to replace my AC. Currently have a Carrier, but am looking at a Mits. Any one who had a Mits, are they as good as they say (economical and very reliable). The Mits is about $1,400 more. My question is...is it worth it? If I read on line, the reviews say it is --- and of course, I believe everything on line. :).
Any thoughts would be welcome.

Thanks,
Kevin

Also look at the efficiency of the unit (SEER) so you are comparing apples to apples.

good point. Mits is 16.0, Carrier is 15.2. Is the .8 worth anything???

So, you are looking for a split (ducted system) and not a mini-split? I have an inverter-based mini-split for our lanai (variable speed compressor that ranges from 25% to 100% of the nominal capacity). I would definitely consider an inverter based split Mitsubishi system to replace the main Carrier system when it is time to replace it based on my experience with the inverter based mini-split. The big issue is that the inverter based systems can loaf along at a small percentage of the nominal capacity, and ramp up when needed, instead of cycling. You should be able to get a 10 or 12 year parts and labor warranty.

Sorry, I’m still new to this (what to include in posts). I’m looking at a whole house ducted system.

As I recall these numbers look like the ratings from 10 years ago, I was under the impression the newest unit were getting closer to SEER of 20.

I just looked at the Consumer reports site and found this: (I added my highlights)

Efficiency
This describes how much cooling the unit delivers for each watt of electricity. Efficiency is expressed as the seasonal energy-efficiency rating, or SEER. The higher the SEER, the greater the efficiency. Higher-SEER ACs tend to cost more, but they’ll often pay for themselves over time through lower energy costs. The minimum SEER allowed for a new split system central air conditioner in the U.S. today is 14, which is at least 20 percent more efficient than minimum-efficiency models made even 10 years ago. Systems that meet the Energy Star guidelines for efficiency have a minimum SEER of 15. The most efficient models reach a SEER of 26.

Take a look at the inverter-based system. Mitsubishi is one of the candidates.

This is so great. Thank you everyone for forcing me to investigate. It seems the the “thehomeinspection.com” web site compared prices to absolute SEER ratings and found that, as of Jan 24, a SEER rating is the most economical SEER rating. I have always been an accountant, so numbers mean everything time. Keep the info coming, you have no idea how much appreciate it.

And Village Tinker - you are the best. I have always been a sort of “tinkerer”, but oh my, my hat is off to you dear sir.

Kevin, I just notice that your title stated HEAT PUMPS versus traditional Air Conditioners. Heat pumps have a completely different installation and as I understand it a higher installation cost but come with higher efficiency. My point I am not sure what you are looking at, heat pumps have wells drilled and then circulate a liquid to pump the heat into the ground or from the ground as needed. These wells are the higher cost.
I am not sure if the heat pumps are being actively installed in TV, but they should be. I will be doing a lot more research as I expect to be doing the replacement in the next couple of years.

You are confusing heatpumps (an appliance that can generate heating or cooling via heat exchange with the air or the ground) with a specific implementation of a heatpump that does heat exchange with the ground. You almost certainly have an air based heatpump at your house unless you live in one of the older sections of The Villages with a standard AC and natural gas heat. Ground source heatpumps are probably extremely rare in The Villages as you need either multiple fairly deep bore holes or a larger shallow area for the heat exchange pipes. The vast majority of heatpumps are air exchange heatpumps. I first had a heatpump in 1984.

Huh? I'm confused. Most central HVAC systems in The Villages are air cooled heat pumps, and they have no underground wells. Personally, I would buy a Carrier system with the lowest efficiency allowed by law because of the low cost for electricity. I have seen very few Mitsubishi whole house systems. Carrier units are very common, and very easy to get parts and to repair. There is no way that I would pay an extra $1,400 for a Mitsubishi HVAC system.

Confusing, the title says heat pump but the 1st paragraph states AC. You always want to use a heat pump, I’ve used them since the early 80’s. I have both of these heat pumps in my house; the Mits for the lanai, Carrier for the whole house.
The heat pumps TV installs in the newer houses are undersized for the sq footage of the house, by at least 1/2 ton and the Seer is on the lower side. But there is a reason for this madness of undersizing the heat pump and that’s because they (hvac dealer consensus) want the heat pump to run longer to get rid of the humidity. So if the heat pump doesn’t need to run that often, you build more humidity in the house. I also know that you can control the humidity by the ecobee.

When I enclosed our lanai, I looked at replacing our carrier to a larger sized unit based on our sq footage and ‘zoning’ off certain rooms. Every dealer I talked too recommended keeping the carrier and getting a mini split for the lanai. This route has worked great and has actually cut down on our electric bill at the same time it was 1/2 the cost of swapping out the carrier.

A reliable source that I trust tells me MITS equipment is a bad choice.
I would avoid it.

State minimum is now 15 SEER, but there's a new wrinkle: Is it SEER or SEER2? (I know. They stink!) Check this:
https://learnmetrics.com/15-2-seer2-vs-16-seer/
Hope it helps. Bottom line, "SECO prices ain't goin' down!"

Caution
 

I have the Mitsubishi whole house ducted system for over three years. It is an efficient unit and it is very quiet but there is an issue with it being unable to hold point it will allow the unit to run it lower speed up to 4° above Setpoint without ramping up, you have to manually increase the speed or drop the thermostat to its lowest setting to get back to set point this is a problem using the Mitsubishi thermostat if you change to the Honeywell, thermostat you go back to a two speed system and lose efficiency MS air conditioning has been unable to resolve this issue

I always thought that a heat pump system referred to the compressor reversing operation in the winter in order to extract heat out of the air.

You may want to also look at replacement parts. How easy they are to get. If it takes longer to get a replacement part for a Mitsubishi for example, how long are you willing to sit in a house with no A/C?

I also have the Mitsubishi whole house ducted system and love it! My system seems to keep the house at 2 degrees cooler than set on the thermostat and runs very quietly. Once we discovered this, easy enough to just set at a level where we are comfortable and pretty much forget it. Our rooms are way more consistent in temperature than before purchasing this system. Definitely see a reduction in electricity from old system. We also have the Mitsubishi mini split in our lanai and it also is a great system. I purchased from M&S and their techs are all very knowledgeable and personable. Couldn't be happier.

We replaced our whole house air conditioner with a unit that has a "scroll" compressor. It is cheaper to operate. The scroll compressor does not have the huge spike in amperage draw that traditional compressors have. When it was put in we were able to replace the 40 Amp. circuit breaker with a 30 Amp. circuit breaker. An ac technician had told me that the high seer ratings advertised today are not usually achieved in real world applications.

My systems are both 4-5 years old and neither have needed any replacement parts, so hasn't been a problem, but as far as I know, M&S has the contract maintaining all of the systems at Rec Centers, etc for The Villages, so I am pretty confident they have an adequate supply of parts. Plus, with overnight deliveries, etc---I'm guessing not much of an issue.

Absolutely. I consider that with everything I buy for the house. There was another thread where a guy was waiting 4 months to replace an electronic part for a fancy variable speed compressor that he bought from an out-of-town contractor. Carrier parts for a single stage compressor are readily available in The Villages.

We bought a Carrier with SEER Of 19, very efficient and quiet. Cost quite a bit more them 16 SEER Unit but the pay back is worth it IMO. WHile we are snow birds and don’t use system during the hottest part of the year, I am impressed that our typical electric bill is less then $90/month. (~1700 sq ft CYV). I would base my purchase on price, warranty, and SEER. We have a 12 year warranty (parts and labor). If the manufacturer doesn’t have faith in their product (good warranty) why should we as purchasers. So long story short, buy the best system you can afford.

Just a thought, but, if the house temperature is 2 degrees cooler than the thermostat setting, it could be that you have the humidity control setting turned on. This will overcool the house to reduce humidity when needed. I always leave the humidity setting off, unless the house will be unoccupied for a long period.

Heat Pump Conversion
 

Good morning, everyone, lots of good information regarding HVAC systems here. My situation is this. I have a typical 3-ton HVAC system with a indoor gas furnace installed in 2006. Looking to be pro-active, I have been getting estimates for a new system comparable to my existing system and also quotes for a new system using a heat pump unit outdoors for AC and heat, and just using an air handler indoors. I've been hearing pros and cons regarding each system and just wondering if there's anyone out there that went to a heat pump only system and did away with the indoor furnace. With FL temps, I would think that heat pumps are very efficient because we hardly dip below 30 degrees. The new systems using only a heat pump are about $2K higher than the conventional outdoor condenser and indoor gas furnace combo. Any comments would be greatly appreciated, thanks, Bob.

High efficiency HVAC
 

For the whole house we have a high efficiency HVAC and for the garage we have a Mitsubishi. The advantage of the high efficiency HVAC is the variable compressor and air handler. Basically, the speeds vary in accordance with demand. Inside the house the temp stays almost constant - you don’t have the on/off cold/warm feeling from traditional AC or Heat units. Our unit brand is American Standard - which Consumer rates high along with Carrier. At the time we bought it, Munns quoted almost 4k more than Chuck for the American Standard. We keep our house at 73 degrees almost year round. During this heat wave our unit ran 20 to 23 hours each day between 30% to 60%. Our electric bill is roughly $50 lower than the Carrier unit that was in place when we moved in. Basically, the same holds true for the cold weather months. Bottom line the high efficiency units keep the home at a constant temp at a lower energy cost, but there initial cost is several thousands dollars more. The Mitsubishi unit for the garage is 12,000 btu and we keep the garage at 77 degrees. It too is high efficiency and runs similar to the HVAC for the home. I did insulate the garage doors and above the garage which made a significant improvement. (Our house faces east).

A lot of houses in The Villages do not have gas available, so a heat pump is the way to go. Both systems will work fine, so I would not pay an extra $2,000 to get a heat pump. But I would shop around to see if you can reduce the cost difference, if you would prefer a heat pump.

Can someone give me some clarity, the original poster mentioned the unit costing around $1,400.
I looked up Mitsubishi and Seer and they both come in between $3,000 and $5,000 and that is without mentioning the labor to replace the existing unit.
I'm I missing something here?

The OP said the Mitsubishi unit was $1,400 more than the Carrier, not that it cost $1,400.

Parts? Service? See what kind of capacitor the Mits uses, and can you get it online at Grangers. If it is common and easily available then you are OK. If not, steer clear.

If you're looking at long term reliability, look at a Trane.

I am a home inspector, I inspect home predominantly in The Villages.

90% at least are Carrier. I cannot recall ever seeing a Mitsubishi main heat pump. Plenty of mini-splits are Mitsi, and they seem to be quite reliable.

When I run across a Trane? It's old, effective and still working like a champ. I'm not saying Carrier are bad, I'm saying that some homes build in the 90s and early 2000s are still using the original Tranes. I have never seen a carrier over 20 years old and still functioning.

Interesting thread, here's a good read on the tohttps://www.hvac.com/expert-advice/the-truth-about-higher-rated-seer-cooling-systems/pic:

I believe all manufacturers are required to use new type of refrigerants starting January 1, 2025. The refrigerants currently used will no longer be available in new units manufactured after that date.

I would be concerned that as the current type of refrigerant will increase in price as need for it dwindles. In a few years it will likely become very expensive to charge your fairly new system manufactured in 2024 or before.

I am holding off until 2025 to replace my system for this very reason. I will insure that my new unit will operate with the newest refrigerant.

Part of your conclusion may be attributable to the fact that the builder installed Trane units in the older houses, and then switched to Carrier within the past 20 years or so. Because 90 percent of the houses have a Carrier, I would be more likely to buy a Carrier because I know that it can be repaired quickly and the parts will be available.

You are correct. Heat pumps are much more efficient than standard AC. There are air to air heat pumps, and ground source heat pumps (also known as geothermal). Our prior home n the Midwest had a geothermal heating/cooling system, and it was fantastic. But then, with 4 acres of property, we had the room for the 1200 feet of tubing buried to a depth of 14', where the temperature of the soil was a year-round 58°. The underground tubing was installed using a horizontal boring machine. In limited space applications, the underground tubing can also be installed vertically. The system we had heated and cooled a 4,000 SqFt house for around $600 a year...and I'm talking very hot summers, and very cold winters. All that said, I have not seen any homes in the Villages with a true geothermal system.

Mitsubishi
 

We have both the mini-split and the whole house mitsubishi units and are very pleased with the performance. For one, the cost to operate is less and when the central/whole house unit cycles, it cannot be heard. Have had both units installed by M & S and the central unit has a 12 year warranty. Our former AC unit, Carrier, broke down annually and since installing the Mitsubishi units (5 years for the mini-split, 3 years for the central unit) we have absolutely no problems.

Note that the new HVAC equipment you buy in 2025 will be about 20 to 25 percent more expensive because of the new refrigerant. Also, older refrigerants are readily available because they are recycled and resold whenever an older unit is replaced. In fact, it is illegal for an HVAC company to dispose of refrigerant. It must be accounted for and recycled.

Thanks

This is totally anecdotal, but 2 neighbors of mine recently installed new Mitsubishi systems, and I lost count of how many additional A/C companies showed up at their houses over the following month for service or repair of some sort.

Readily available at an ever increasing cost. We have experienced this on previously banned refrigerants. I have not read in my research that there will be an automatic 20 to 25 percent increase starting in 2025 but nothing surprises me anymore.