DC Airline Disaster
 

How could it not happen? Air Controller overload, Interlapping military and commercial flights at nearby airports, military night training flights in overloaded commercial airport landing paths. Government, congressional, executive desire for easy transport from midtown DC. Time for some intelligent decisions. Eliminate overlapping flightpath air facilities. It will not get better unless a major shift is made. Don't allow congress or executive civilians to influence decisions for convenience

There is no "overlapping flight paths" or "interlapping flights". What's an "executive civilian" ?

The airspace in that area is well known and specific. This crash will mostly likely end up being attributed to simple human error. Based on the current information, the Blackhawk was in the wrong place and erroneously informed ATC that they had the CRJ in view.

That BH was manned by 3 professionals, at least 2 of which were qualified pilots. To mis-identify a commercial aircraft under those circumstances, is inexcusable. ATC and both aircraft should have received a CA warning (Collision Avoidance) and both ATC & the BH should have taken immediate action. It appears the CRJ was exactly where it was supposed to be and not in a position to take evasive action. Also, with a Separation Error of that magnitude, there was likely a audible warning in the tower (at least that's how it used to work.)

In my opinion, all this noise about the "system", is simply that ... noise. The system usually works perfectly fine, it's the people who fail. ATC for assuming the BH pilots actually had the CRJ in view (even though he had a CA warning) and the BH pilots for not being vigilant.

Flight Paths
 

A few assumptions there that have yet to be proven.

In the end, it is almost always human error. The “system” is there to try to remove as many chances for human error as possible and to reduce their impact if they do occur. If parts of the system are removed then more errors can occur with serious effects.

The second controller, fewer flights to reduce workload, and more of a buffer between allowed airspace would all have helped.

I wonder if the collision avoidance mentioned is effective or even active on final approach and under 500 feet.

I guess the real question, and probably the proximate cause of the collision, is why was the BH with a celling of 200 feet at 350 feet?

And why wasn’t that noticed and both aircraft alerted?

Which then goes to the unanswered question: Who was the air traffic controller responsible, what was his qualifications and experience level?

I watched a video of the crash.
It looked like a helicopter under remote control being used as a missile.

The airport is very small for the passenger volume and is landlocked so is unlikely to expand. It has been years since I used it, but I remember my flights taking off at steep angles to meet regulations.

That's a reach. Blackhawk wrong altitude, not enough eyes in control tower.

Close case.:bigbow:

As a pilot myself, it's inconceivable that tower would give clearance to cross an active runway's glidepath under any conditions, much less at night, with a commercial airliner on short-final to an airport practically down-town in the nation's capital -- and to a military helicopter on a night-training mission wearing night-vision goggles that restrict peripheral vision 80%!

No tower would give me that clearance on a clear day in Tulsa, if I was the only thing on radar!

But apparently that's considered routine at Reagan International. And whichever gooberment moron approved that should do hard time for the manslaughter of 67 innocent lives.

[QUOTE=BrianL99;2406053]There is no "overlapping flight paths" or "interlapping flights". What's an "executive civilian" ?

No Overlapping flight paths? Two AC Crash into each other. Latitude and longitude within their prescribed path, but one was too high due to human error. Same type issue happened previous day but no crash.

Yes, human error either in AC or Controller direction. Nighttime training mission. If you look at how to minimize the impact of Human error, wouldn't you eliminate possibility that an error of 200 feet could cause a disaster.
This airport is in the right place for Executive civilians such as congress and government. But for safety, shouldn't be in a place where 200 foot human error kills people.

That airport gets a lot of traffic. This kind of accident rarely happens. It is a tragedy.


Hopefully the investigation can find the cause and do something concrete to prevent this from happening.

Well, I would think that helicopters staying below their 200 foot ceiling would be a good start

Why did it do that would be my question.

Ugly rumors on X, hopefully have been reported and removed

I expect it will be shown to be "Human Error", but why have a set-up like this that makes the likelihood of a human error so high?

With Dulles being less than 30 miles from Ronald Reagan, why aren't all of the "commercial" flights limited to that airport?

Most capital cities now have a high speed rail connection between the city center and the nearest major airport.

Reagan has been a busy airport for many years. In the late 1960s I worked as a Patent Examiner on the 10th floor of a building in Crystal City. My office overlooked the airport and it was busy even back then. Dulles went into service in 1962 but members of Congress wanted to keep Reagan open as it was very convenient for them. They even had their own private parking lot there - probably still do. During Commencement in June of 1970 on the Georgetown campus lawn it was very difficult to hear the speakers as planes taking off from Reagan (National back then) kept flying over.

Reagan is the 26th busiest airport in the US, according to Top 100 US Airports FlightRadar24 | Plane Flight Tracker (which tracks in real time). The real problem isn't that Reagan is so busy, but that the Washington/NY corridor is the busiest air space in the USA.

Washington DC itself, probably being the most congested (& complicated) in the world.

LaGuardia & Kennedy are only 8 miles apart and they're both busier than Reagan. People don't realize how many airports are out there and how close they are.

When I took off from my home base airport, when I was at 6B6, if I climbed to 10,000 feet (2 miles) and lost an engine, there were at least 8-10 airports I could glide to.

It is intolerable to make any derogatory comments about any person based on religion, race, age, gender, etc.

Please remember this is a large community with many members from all parts of the world, representing all people.

Please refrain from posting messages that contain potential hot topics known as polarizing arguments.

A tone of “kindness” is appreciated for all discussions.

I'm a former Army helicopter pilot qualified in all models of the Blackhawk. I have over 8000 flight hours and a significant number of NVG hours.

It is difficult under NVGs to determine how far away an observed light is. That is particularly true in an environment where there are many light sources - such as the DC area. If the crew was unaided the risk factors increase. An additional factor is that (contrary to news reports) this was not a highly experienced crew.

My GUESS, based on what I've read and seen, is that the Blackhawk pilot saw a light source that he thought was the airliner but was not. He reported to ATC that he had the aircraft in sight and would avoid it (pass behind or slow and let the airliner pass by). That took the onus off of ATC to direct a turn for either aircraft. The responsibility shifted to the Blackhawk and no deviation was required of the airliner.

The tower could (perhaps) have given better notice of where the RJ was and what runway he was approaching. It is unclear right now, but unlikely, that the Blackhawk had TCAS or ADS B which can give situational awareness of other aircraft.

The airliner was in a descent and apparently above the helicopter. That is a blind spot to the helicopter pilot(s) and likely to the airliner since the Blackhawk was near and below the RJ. The end to the tragedy was that the two aircraft collided - probably with the airliner descending into the helicopter.

In answer to another comment, it is very common to have helicopter low level routes below airport approach paths. It is done to keep the relatively slow helicopters out of the airspace used by larger - and faster -aircraft while allowing the rotorcraft to complete their mission. This particular route is inside the DC capital area and is VERY tightly controlled and available only to a very small set of aircraft.

It is certainly a tragic event. It is likely the Blackhawk crew was at fault (based on news reports). It is understandable - to me - how it happened. I, and every other pilot, have made a similar mistake that only by the grace of God did not end up in an accident.

An airliner on final at 350' is about 30 seconds from wheels down. It doesn't make one damn bit of difference if that chopper was at 200' or 350'. The legal vertical separation at ALL altitudes is 500 FEET! And that chopper shouldn't have be crossing the active runway's glidepath at ANY altitude lower than 14,500', anyway. That's the typical ceiling of class B airspace under the control of a major towered airport.

I don't care what altitude it was at, crossing a commercial airliner's glidepath on short final is idiotic and ordinarily illegal. Doing it at night with night vision goggles is stupid squared. ATC granting clearance to do such a dumbass thing is criminal, and whoever told that controller it was OK for the army to play in traffic near the nation's capital airport should be liable for 67 counts of criminally negligent manslaughter.

You should have tried to get at least a few facts correct before spending so much time typing your rant.

Nice to hear from someone who knows what he's talking about.

I think you're right in everything you typed, other than I believe ATC has to share some of the fault with the BH pilots (I thought I read there were at least 2, if not 3 "pilots" on that aircraft, at least one of which, was an "Instructor"?)

If the facts are as presented in all the news reports are accurate, ATC had a CA alert. The Controller was apparently satisfied in his own mind, that the BH really had the CRJ in sight and wasn't mistaken. The Controller didn't rely on his own equipment, which indicated there was something amiss.

It's sort of the like the guy who refuses to rely on his instruments, because he sees it differently, outside the window.

(You don't think the BH had TCAS or ADS-B?)

Although this occurred in DC it is deeply personal to many in the aviation community. Military, commercial, corporate, GA pilots and controllers of every sort truly "felt" this. They are shaken by the events. This is never supposed to be able to happen...

This was posted by an air traffic controller online....

"An aircraft accident happened over the Potomac river tonight. If you know me then you understand that a tragedy like this resonates across the country and strikes at the heart of all air traffic controllers across the nation. I feel deeply for the families that lost loved ones this night. There aren’t words that my profession can offer to heal the pain, but I hope you know that we’ve lost a part of ourselves tonight. We exist to serve you in silence and we take it to heart when events like tonight come to fruition. We live in this pain and will carry it for all of our lives. Please think about those that you cannot relate with. Understand that our job comes with consequences and a penalty that cannot be understood by those that do not do this unforgiving job. By no means is this an excuse. This is the testimony of a man who cares and does his best every single day that you trust him to do so. My colleagues are one and the same."

I was taught to trust my instruments.

Just curious, based on your experience, how could the helicopter crew not see the airplane? In the more recent videos of the crash, the airplane landing lights are a blinding light coming straight at the camera. It's hard to imagine that the helicopter crew wouldn't see this if they even glanced to their left.

Reading the various comments above I would think when large numbers of lives are at stake that commercial aircraft would have their own space as the helicopter can land anywhere? I heard the air traffic controllers were cut back (from 2 to 4?) which again given the number of lives at stake is simply inexcusable especially since I heard they may have been distracted. Unacceptable.

I have no where near as many hours in the cockpit as others who have posted, but I do have enough to know that pilots primarily rely on their peripheral vision, which is better able to distinguish "movement", thus the words "scanning for traffic". In an airplane, your head has to be on a slow swivel when searching for traffic. It's usually the only way to pick out a "small speck", 2 miles away. I haven't been in the cockpit since ADS-B was mandated, but I can't imagine it's changed much, as it's primarily "out-going", I believe?

Apparently the 2 pilots in the BH were wearing night-vision googles, which I've been told are something like looking at the world through a toilet paper roll ... little or no peripheral vision.

Coincidentally, I also have some experience in the ATC world and made a post regarding that, but it was deleted by the Moderators. That's fine, that's their right and I'm not going to argue the point. I am going to make a similar point, but hopefully without the specifics that caused that post to be deleted.

Like many other challenging employment positions in today's world, the standards have been lowered, simply to put "bodies in seats". It's not an easy task, as X number of people are needed and if you can't hire enough of the "best and the brightest", you have to take what you can get.

Some folks want to attribute lower standards to a specific political or social agenda. In the ATC world, that's simply not the case. It's the reality of the job marketplace. There's a severe shortage of available and competent Controllers and the FAA over the last few years has lowered their admission standards.

At the same time, the technology has improved dramatically and the hope has always been that the improved technology would make up for the lower standards. I think in this instance, as myself and a number of others have mentioned, ATC is going to take part of the blame and rightly so, in my opinion. With today's technology, two 100% operational aircraft shouldn't collide in the sky.

My uncle was one of the fire chiefs responding to the crash of Flight 191 on May 25, 1979. My heart goes out to the responders and other people involved in finding the cause and dealing with the trauma caused by this tragic accident.

My uncle was quite upset as he told me about his memories dealing with American Airlines Flight 191.

The facts will come out with this Potomac River crash. You have a lot of people digging for how this happened.

Gray News) - The Army has identified the third soldier who was inside the Black Hawk helicopter involved in Wednesday’s deadly DC plane crash that killed 67 people.

Officials identified the soldier as Cpt. Rebecca M. Lobach of Durham, North Carolina.

Lobach served as an aviation officer in the Army from July 2019 and had around 500 hours of flying time in the Black Hawk under her belt.

From: ‘We are devastated’: Cpt. Rebecca Lobach identified as third Black Hawk pilot who died in DC plane crash

From what I have seen/heard so far, I believe the key factors to this incident will be:
-BH pilots using night vision in a potentially congested area
-non-specific comms from ATC to BH pilots re visual on Regional jet - there was actually 2 RJs in the immediate area.
-Did the ATC view/respond to instrument/radar tracking of the BH critically on a line to the Regional jet?

According to this report: Who Was Black Hawk Helicopter Pilot in DC Plane Crash? What We Know - Newsweek

All 3 people in the Black Hawk were pilots? 2 with "hundreds of hours" and 1 with "over 1000 hours"?

How could 3 qualified pilots, all in communication with each other, not properly identify an airplane in the air? There was another similar airplane in the air space and on the approach, but for all 3 to make the same mistake?

How many seconds are involved in all this happening? Not very many. The helicopter was too high for some reason. Maybe that reason will come out; maybe it will not. Depends on what the physical evidence shows. Or does not. Facts do not lie. Now some people lie some of the time. Others all the time. If it quacks like a duck it probably is not a swan.

The part about the helicopter being too high, I get it. Not every one in the BH is necessarily looking at the Instruments and at least one person in the "back" probably couldn't even see the instruments (being at 350' instead of 200', isn't readily obvious by looking out the window).

Identifying another aircraft in the area, is just a basic, human activity. Everyone in the aircraft was privy to ATC communications. Human nature suggests that when they were asked if the "have the CRJ in view", all 3 would have looked for it and confirmed to ATC and each other, they have it in sight. They confirmed a visual, twice.

BTW, for those who haven't seen a professional recap of what happened, you can find it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzQe6W7vcu4. Pilot Debrief is one of the most respected sources for information on aircraft accidents.

My guess is that they were looking at the other plane in the sky and not in what could have been a blind spot above them. We are talking about a few seconds to notice that plane.


Personally I do not think helicopters should be anywhere near flight paths of planes.

As many have stated they do not have all the facts as yet.
The one fact that does exist is that there is always an unexpected accident waiting around the corner.
It's good for them to investigate exactly what happen to see if it can be prevented in the future.
But to investigate to place blame on someone is a waste of time, that will not bring those lost people back.

Totally agree! One thing I'd add - I've been given a course deviation from ATC 100s of times around a busy active runway or area. I can't figure out why ATC didn't just give the BH a deviation 3 miles east or the runway to vector him around the approach end of the runway!?!?!? Makes no sense to me when it happens everywhere else hundreds of times daily to GA aircraft.

In that congested DCA area, Collision Avoidance signals are considered false positives. They should make DCA a military base and make the DC Parasites fly into Dulles. The Helicopter was flying too high for some reason...that was the error.