HVAC Maintenance? How much are you paying?
 

With all this talk about Munns increasing their maintenance prices 45%, how much are you paying, who's doing the maintenance, how many times a year, and from what you can tell, how long are they there doing the work?

If you don't do maintenance, tell us that too and tell us if your condenser has a "fur coat".

Also, if you had a capacitor changed, tell us how much it cost and which company did the work and if it was an emergency or not.

Also, tell us how old your system is. Let's see who has the oldest system running in the Villages.

Great post.

Last week Munns was to come for pm (scheduled 6 months in advance) and the day before get reminder and by the way we are raising your price by 45% and seems like we did not tell you.

Since they did not think to tell us about increase and we are long term customers asked them to hold price for this trip. Told us no.

Told them to cancel and we are looking for replacement.

HVAC maintenance
 

I use no one for regular maintenance. I changed filters regularly and put 50% solution of white vinegar and water down the condensate line twice a year. My 19 year old Trane condensing unit is still purring along. I have never had a service call on it. Maybe it is hard to stop a Trane! And that’s coming from someone that sold Carrier equipment in five states for 30 years! I even wax my old Trane unit at least once a year. It still looks new. I use to train dealers to always wax the outdoor unit of the customer that is receiving the maintenance service. More customers felt like their unit ran like new when it looked good again!!!!!!

Do you ever clean the outdoor condenser coils? If not, it must have a fur coat by now.

Fur coat on outdoor coil
 

No, the old spiny fin coil on my 19 year old Trane unit is still shiny and bright. Trane got that all aluminum coil from General Electric when they purchased the GE air conditioning division in the 70’s. Those old GE Weathertron units with the Climatuff compressors were almost impossible to kill!!! Trane had very little residential equipment until they bought the GE air conditioning division.

I have never paid anything for maintenance. I add a gallon of hot tap water to the condensate drain about every months, change the filter every 6 months, and hose off the condenser unit when needed. I think maintenance is the biggest money maker for most HVAC companies. They get paid for whatever they do, and they don't need to fix anything. Also, they don't provide any guarantees for future service or repairs or extended equipment life. Their "verbal" promise to provide priority service or to extend the life of your system is not worth anything to me.

I saw a Youtube video on that Trane system. Someone has one that's 50 years old. Still works although it has a refrigerant leak so they need to keep charging it up. He never does maintenanced on it. Only fixes it when it needs it. It also has a "fur coat" but he says that's what's keeping it running but the outdoor condenser unit sounds like it's sufficating.

That's the funny part about maintenance. "People" say, "It's running just fine". But how do they know because it's coolng? But at what cost? They could be paying double in energy costs because it's old and or unmaintained and very inefficient.

Older units
 

My air conditioning electric usage is very reasonable. If my unit is keeping me comfortable, with no service calls, and very reasonable electric usage; I’m happy. Money not spent on maintenance, or expensive service calls is money in my pocket. If It ain’t broke, I don’t replace it. Believe me, I’ve seen many people put out big money for the latest, greatest systems to be disheartened later from breakdowns, and full of cognitive dissonance. I recommend people purchase a good solid middle of the road unit. Not the builder models, not the trophy units, but the middle of the road units with good SEER rating with low decibel rating for noise. Also, get 3 or 4 estimates and buy from the contractor you are comfortable with, and feel like he will be there for you in the future.

Annual maintenance for me at any cost from Munn's.
In this Florida heat, I'll say again, my 3 year old HVAC Carrier unit is the most important appliance in my house

Interesting many HVAC companies are offering full 10 year labor to go along with the 10 year parts from the manufacturer at a very reasonable price so that tells me the newer Inverter systems are now very reliable compared to years ago.

It seems redundant to pay for maintenance on a system that is still covered by a full parts and labor warranty.

Maybe, but the way they look at it is maintenance is labor you pay to check the system, clean the condenser and evaporator coils, and clean the condensate drain. If they find the run capacitor is low for example, the charge for that part and to replace it is covered under the parts and labor warranty. Does that make sense?

It's interesting that most feel a HVAC maintenance call and any repairs should be basically cheap. For example, maybe change the capacitor for $25 because you can get one on Amazon for $10 or sometimes at Ace Hardware for free. If the HVAC companies charged a lot less how could they stay in business? Who's going to pay the insurance, expenses for the trucks, salaries, any benefits? Ask yourself, if you knew how to do this maintenance and repairs, would you do it for minimum wage for a living?

10 year labor warranty
 

If contractor is offering 10 year labor warranty to go along with 10 year parts warranty from the manufacturer; that labor warranty is only good as long as that contractor is still in business. If it’s a third party labor warranty; many of those have vanished and left people with no warranty. I tell people all the time when purchasing a new HVAC system; Buyer Beware. I have seen prices on the same equipment range from $7000 to $28,000 . Unfortunately, in these times, I see more fraudulent, almost criminal crimes against seniors than previous eras.

Not really. I have never paid for any HVAC maintenance and my systems have all lasted at least 15 to 20 years, with no real issues.

It would interesting to know how many people, who pay for regular maintenance, have actually had the capacitor replaced during the maintenance visit, and how much extra they were charged.

Not me. The inspection visit identified a degraded capacitor and I replaced it myself. I had options, I could have waited for the next visit or I could have waited until it failed. I chose to benefit from the inspection and perform the preventive maintenance.

Yes, this is an easy DIY. I actually go a step further; I preemptively replace mine every 3 years. I keep the old one around until the next replacement in case the replaced one were to die early. We are gone a lot and would prefer not to have the HVAC fail while we are gone from something I can address.

Right, which is why it might be best to deal with a larger more established HVAC company who will stand behind what they sell.

Larger companies
 

Maybe. But I’ve dealt with some of the largest to some of the smallest contractors. Believe me, some of the largest ones did inferior work to the small companies. Companies are only as good as the person they are sending to your home. The HVAC industry is a great industry to be a great service tech or installer. Everyone always going to need air conditioning and heat! We use to say that someone will be installing or servicing a system during a nuclear war! People use to question how I made it through the recession years; I told them I didn’t need any new construction; had millions out there to replace!

Back in NC years ago I went to one of the local shops to get a part for the air handler. From the counter I could see in the office a board with sales people listed and their SPIFs for maintenance contracts.

Attachment 109236So here is the reality. There is nothing wrong with your maintenance plan except you are not checking the refrigerant pressures and temperatures, sub-cooling and super heat. Although your system may be "runnng fine", there is really no way to know for sure and that it's running efficiently unless you check the refrigerant and OR you check your Delta-T which no one here has mentioned.

Delta-T is something every homeowner can do themselves to get an "idea" of how well their system is running. How do you test it? You get a temperature probe from Amazon, for example and when the system is running at 100% on a warm or hot day, subtract the return air or input air temperature going into your air handler from the supply air or output coming out of your air handler. The difference is called Delta-T and should be anywhere from 18-24 degrees difference. On older systems you may see 15-18 degrees difference which means the system is cooling just not as efficiently as it could be. Now one issue with Delta-T measurements is you have to assume your system is sized correctly. If it's not, on a very hot day your Delta-T may be lower than all other days of the year because your system can't keep up.

So all that said, if you maintain your own system, either with a professional checking it once a year and you doing whatever maintenance you can do or those who only clean the filters and the coils, checking the Delta-T temperature will give you a good idea on how well the system is actually working assuming everything in the system is in good working order. Remember, just because your system "seems" to be runnung fine, it may not be and you are wasting money every month running an inefficient system that might easily be fixed.

If you are not testing, you are guessing.

Hope this all helps.

Amazon.com

Delta T
 

I understand the terms, but most of the hundreds of thousands of Villagers aren’t interested in hooking gauges up to their HVAC systems. They are more interested in being active and having fun in their final years.

Agreed which is why they should pay the price and have a reputable HVAC company check the system once a year or if they don't want to pay of feel the maintenance is not necessary, they need to know the facts and make the decision that's best for them.

I have DeSantis out once a year. But I replace my own filters, and pour hot water down my condensation line every couple of months.

Something else I have, and have been suggesting to people, is to pick up a cheap rolling window AC when Ollie's or someone gets them and puts them on sale. I had one up north and brought it with me. So if my AC dies, I can at least cool the bedroom until I can get someone out, and I am not feeling pressured to take whatever price is offered to get my whole house running again. Also, when it's really hot and my whole house AC is struggling to keep up, I can use this to supplement. Especially if we have a bunch of people over.

I agree. I understand the terms also, but my entire electric bill for the past 12 months has averaged $106 per month, which is pocket change compared to my electric and gas bills in my old house in Virginia, and it has not varied much over the years. In fact, my cost of living has decreased by about 75 percent since moving here. My HVAC system has been heating and cooling my house perfectly for the past 9 years. If my system fails, I will just repair it or buy a new system.

The cost/benefit analysis of these inspections would be interesting.

- Identifying a failing capacitor that is then replaced could avoid a hot home. On the other hand, having a spare capacitor on-hand and replacing it when the home begins to warm up would be cheaper

- Identifying a coolant leak or failing compressor would provide an opportunity to schedule a replacement before the existing unit fails. On the other hand, how often do these systems fail gradually such that an owner would get a warning?

If I can fix a problem in ten minutes or preemptively replace the capacitor every three years then is it worth $800 (4 years to noticeable degradation @ $200/year) for a possible warning?

If the system is more likely to fail suddenly than to give a warning then is it worth $2,000+ to have someone come and tell me they see nothing wrong?

Of course, peace of mind has a value too.

I have been off and on with inspections over the seven years I've owned here. I'm on the fence right now but a 45% increase will definitely make for an easier decision.

Good points. I think the decision point is as follows.

If you have a heat pump system and If you are able to do the following:
1) Clean the condenser and evaporator coils once a year.
2) Pour hot tap water down the condensate line every month or so.
3) Be able to open the condenser unit once a year and test the capacitor to see if it's out of spec. and change it as necessary.
4) Check the amperage of your Auxillary heat strip in the Air Handler.
5) Be able to get a temperature probe and test the Delta-T at your Air Handler.

If your are able to do tasks 1-5 above then one would say you don't need HVAC maintenance by a professional once a year. I would bet if you were able to determine how many Villagers would be able and willing to do all the tasks, it would be a very small number compared to the total population.

If you can't do the above tasks then you probably want to spend the money and have HVAC maintenance done for you.

If you don't have a heat pump system and have a furnace, I would recommend getting a HVAC professional to check your system once a year. If you are a DIY'r and make a mistake with the furnace you are gambling with your life vs spending the $200/year for maintenance. Not worth it unless you have the equipment and know 100% what you are doing.

I will be skipping 5, 4, and probably the testing part of 3 per the thoughts in the message your replied to.

My gamble will be that the compressor/coolant system will either fail without warning or will last until I choose to replace it. I might lose that gamble.

The last two failures would not have been detected by the yearly inspections.

The Aux Heat is kind of important because when it does get cold, the condenser will go into defrost mode and if your home is calling for heat at that time, the Aux Heat should come on for that short period during the defrost. If the Aux Heat strips were bad, mine went bad, you will think you have no heat and then call for service. Here in Central Florida this isn't critical but just wanted to explain why I included that check.

Can you tell us what your last two failures were? Just curious, maybe we can learn something.

The integrated controller on the blower motor and the circuit board shorted out by an anole climbing behind it.

Yep I’ve seen both those failures. Very common from what I understand. And preventative maintenance wouldn’t have helped.

I've lived in Florida all my life. I don't know anyone who pays for preventative maintenance. They rinse off the coils a couple of times a year, dump vinegar in the return line a couple times a year, and replace the air filters every 90 days - that's it. We only have the AC guys come out when there is an issue.

AC warranties in Florida are BS.

The coil in my compressor failed last summer while in its last year of warranty, and it was going to be 6 WEEKS for parts.

I had to wait or buy a new compressor. It did not make sense to wait that long to put in a new coil in when everything else in the unit was already almost 5 years old. Especially since only the parts, and not the labor, were covered under warranty. Even under warranty I was looking at about a $1200 labor job.

So, guess which one I chose.

My experience is not uncommon.......

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From what you wrote, I guess you chose the $15K+ replacement rather than the $1,200 repair. That's a $13K+ choice on your part.

6 yr old unit installed & maintained yearly by Munns. I pay $99 yearly plus the cost of new filter from Amazon -approx. $40, which their engineer changes for me. Very satisfied with Munns.

Only a few posts have actually answered OPs question.

HVAC maintenance, how much are you paying? Who do you use?

Please keep in mind most warranties require regular maintenance by qualified technician. Having ben involved with maintenance, warranties and repairs on Elevator and Escalators I had many a discussion about why the "warranty" was void due to inadequate, qualified service.

HVAC systems installed in The Villages do not require regular maintenance by a technician to enforce the warranty.

I will agree that most warranties for almost any product will have a clause that allows the manufacturer to deny a warranty claim if there is "evidence" that the product has been abused or damaged by improper use. For example, you can change your own oil on a vehicle, but if you never change the oil and the engine fails because of this, the manufacturer can refuse to repair the engine. But I have never seen a warranty that states "in writing" that a qualified technician is required to perform regular maintenance. If you know of such a warranty for a consumer product, please post it.

Change the filter and flush the drain tub twice a year yourself.

Where I lived before I had a local company come once a year check the pressure, replace the filter and clean the system for $100 cash.