TSA can "patdown" anywhere in airport; not just at security checkpoint.
 

I'm posting this thread in Political because of the members who think anything they don't like should be in Political.

In N.Y. a young woman who already cleared security was stopped in front of all the other passengers at the gate preparing to board their flight and made to stand spread-eagled while the TSA agent fondled her breasts, inner thighs and crotch while the other boarding passengers stood wide eyed.

Two other women were reported to have been targeted earlier at the same gate.

When asked for comment the TSA representative said they would check if the patdown was too invasive. So, it seems that the location did not really matter.

Did you know you were subject to this "enhanced patdown" at the gate or at any point, it seems, while in the airport?

I know there are the people who are going to go "off again" on me for posting about the TSA. Don't bother, I know your feelings about it and how you don't care anything about your personal privacy at the airport.

This is just FYI

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/q...c99DADfZNBjI4J

I have been at airports and have seen a secondary pat-down for selected passengers before boarding the plane. None have been the fondling and groping as Richie likes to refer to in his posts, though.

I am curious, Richie, you had stated your wife was flying north for your granddaughter's first birthday but you had decided not to go because you did not feel comfortable having your genitals probed by TSA. Did your wife take her trip yet and, if so, was she rudely fondled and groped in her most private areas by TSA either at Orlando or the other airports? Please be honest in your answer.

I recently went on a trip to and from Orlando to Costa Rica. Only screening at both airports were just the normal x-ray of carry-on bags and walking through the magnetic door. No body scanning or pat-downs.

Anxious to hear about your wife's experience.

The New York Post is also a paper that does a lot of sensationalism stories just to sell papers. Very much like the National Inquirer.

I only posted a story FYI. I'm not getting into defending my beliefs on this again. You do with the info what you will.

Oh, and I just want to add that I grew up in Manhattan in NYC and I walked through Central Park hundreds of times without getting mugged. I think all those people with stories of getting mugged are full of it.

just another example of a government agency totally out of control.The bigger the bureauocracy of the agency gets the more dangerous they are to Americans. I feel no safer at airports. Taking off my shoes is demeaning and total BS. It seems to me that our country cannot get anything right. Our government agencies can't be trusted to do the right thing. It's always about the money and who can steal the most.The worst:the Pentagon,totally out of control. Latest...1,900 people spent 17 billion on roadside bomb research because they gave money to private contractors. Lots of us complain our gov't is broken but I think its the people. Most of the agencies were started to solve problems that needed solving. Somewhere along the line these agencies have cheated ,lied,and basically stolen money from us. It seems the only thing we are exceptional at is scamming,scheming,and cheating and I guess going to war. When is the last time we made something useful? We can't even make a 911 monument without payoffs.

Who would have thought it? I really cannot disagree with you. Government are people, and people are avaricious. That is why government must be limited to it's basic necessities. The bigger the government, the bigger the corruption.

Richie, your post was about a woman who thought her pat-down was too personal and was conducted at the airplane gate.

I merely asked how your wife's trip up north went for your granddaughter's first birthday and if your wife had to endure an enhanced pat-down or full body screening.

Nothing meant to be against your beliefs since you have made them clear on this subject and you have every right to your viewpoints.

Yes, your analogy of not being mugged for many years in NYC does fit in. Lots of people do say NYC is so dangerous - and they are fabricating it.

When flying back from my daughter's college graduation, we had gone through security at the Philadelphia airport. At the gate, we were all delayed by ANOTHER impromptu security line.

I *really* wanted to make a scene and ask them what the problem was - were they admitting that this new checkpoint was for 'theater' or admitting that their previous checkpoint was a farce and ineffective.

However, since I'm not fond of body cavity searches, I kept my mouth shut.

I know absolutely nothing about the New York Post.

However the way things are phrased in this article sort of sounds like sensational journalism.

I also noted a related article about a knife that was missed by the TSA. It too was not worded in a journalistic manner. (It's choice of words was also more sensational than descriptive.)

Could bkcunningham or PTurner or someone else who is a journalist by trade tell me a little more about this paper? Or someone who has read that paper a lot?

Just wondering.

Sometimes we can't believe everything we read in every newspaper.

I can believe our frequent flyer, Katesbox.

It's easy to get a feel for a newspaper if you're a little web savvy. Just Google it and you'll get multiple people's opinions on the newspaper, and it's reporting style, it's editorial style, etc.

You either believe this woman or not. The paper reports that they contacted the TSA and gives the TSA's response. What more do you want to know? You want to know why they reported the story?

This sort of validated my feelings about the style.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Post

And, of course, we get to see more of the thinking behind the people who are charged with keeping airports safe:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41959553...s-us_business/

So, they fire the person who was fantastic at finding weapons, etc. and KEEP the supervisor who thinks that someone had put a "hex" on her car causing the heater to malfunction.

At what point do these brain-dead morons get held accountable? I fear that, SOMEday, the passengers on a plane are NOT going to succeed at doing the job that the TSA is charged with and a plane is going to come down. Then the TSA will blame everyone ELSE and demand they be allowed even MORE invasive procedures...

When a paper is one of the papers who prints the "sensationalism" style stories, it is in the same category of National Inquirer or Star that we see at the grocery store checkout lanes.

Take everything you read in it with a grain of salt.

The woman probably was screened with a second pat-down with an electronic wand - but I seriously doubt if she was molested like the newspaper reported. How did the New York Post pick up the story when it was not reported by other papers? The woman probably called the Post directly ( looking for a lawsuit after a little inconvenience or being told she either had to comply or not fly?).

Nothing wrong with posting the article, Richie. Gave people something to think about from different angles. Keep it up.

Good post; loved the link. I think you're absolutely correct about your predictions on how the TSA will react when they fail at this task and more invasive procedures will be demanded. It's going to happen because it's impossible for them to do this job the way they are doing it.

If things don't change, they'll come a day when they'll demand the authority to perform body cavity searches, under penalty of law. Government never gets smaller on it's own accord.

just another example of a bureaucracy gone crazy. A total waste of resources and money. We are no safer it's all P.R. garbage.

Tsa
 

If you believe there are problems now wait until the TSA brings their union on board.

What does a union have to do with the CURRENT problems at TSA?

Tsa
 

File a compalint against a TSA union member when they come on board and you will see that the current problems don't seem as bad.

Unions
 

Not that this has anything to do with this thread - Rubicon - but have you ever been a union member?

I know RichieLion was a member of the Teamster's union. Teamsters were very powerful in getting lots of concessions for their employees in terms of pay and hours and working conditions. They also were a mighty corrupt union. I worked across the street in Washington DC from AFL-CIO headquarters and also from United Mine Workers. United Auto Workers were also very powerful. Wages were really boosted for employees under all those unions.

I was in management so I never could be a union member.

Tsa
 

Tbug, married while in the service so had to work and complete college at night. Home state had close shop laws forced me to join two unions, Steelworkers and Teamsters. My Dad had a respectable position with the Teamsters, We had opposing points of views about unions. Upon completion of college entered corporate world and spend many years in management both operations and Human Resources. As a general comment I understand the benefit of management v unions to maintain balance but working such programs as Job Classification, Merit Salary and Performance Evaluation Programs et al you develop a totally different perspective not to forget the Employment law issues. I could go on and on but you obviously been there and done that. So essentially I was reared in a blue collar family.

I was a Teamster and proud of it. Unions did more to enrich and grow the middle class than any other entity in this nation. Almost all the benefits expected from an employer had their origins with the unions; from the 40 hour work week, to the 2 week vacation to overtime pay, to a safe work environment. Was there corruption? There is in any large organization particularly the largest organization of them all, the federal government.

But I've always separated the public unions with the private unions. In public union contracts negotiations the employer is not at the table to negotiate the contract. That employer is the taxpayer. At the table with the public union to negotiate their contract are politicians who are negotiating a contract with the very people who finance their political careers. Unbelievable.

Private unions, as I belonged to, have to negotiate their contract with their actual employer. At the company I worked for the workers agreed to a 15% wage giveback and exempted the company from paying into the pension plan for 2 years in order to give the company a chance to rebuild and stay in business because of the downfalls it experienced in this new devolving economy. This is totally a foreign concept to the public unions who demand more and more no matter how the economy has changed.

Tas.............
 

richielion that's pretty much what my Dad believed and essentially that is the history of unions and their contribution to the rise of the middle class; although Henry Ford is given credit for its rise since he raised workers wages so they could buy his cars.

One fundamental difference with the position unions are in is the fact that many of what unions fought for in the 'classic era' [weekends, 8-hour days, child labor prohibitions, holidays, equal opportunity] are now LAW. Agencies like the EEOC and OSHA are now in charge of the kinds of things that unions fought for decades ago. So unions are now looking for another "raison d'etre" and it's difficult to do.

djplong, "raison d'etre is precisely the point.

When I saw some of the posts in this thread I was very dishearten. I travel for business very regularly, sometimes even weekly. This trip is Philly, Cleveland and Indy then back to Orlando. I have a couple of questions for some of you who posted....

Tbugs....you posted this:

I recently went on a trip to and from Orlando to Costa Rica. Only screening at both airports were just the normal x-ray of carry-on bags and walking through the magnetic door. No body scanning or pat-downs.

So you just walked through the metal detector without any alarms, correct? Then that means you are an able bodied person. You don't have an artificial hip, knee, leg nor any metal rods in your limbs or back. You don't have a artificial bladder nor an artificial breast. Because if you did you would NOT have just walked through the metal detector. You could have been selected for the scanner or that very personal pat-down.


Now Richie Lion and I do have metal parts and therefore we are not as lucky as you. Cause we alarm and then we are subjected to a very unpleasant pat-down. As I explained it to a TSA agent in Colorado Springs they wanted to touch parts of me that I would only allow my doctor, my partner and myself to touch. For me the issue is deeper than just the fact that twice a week I could be subjected to this ....as a child I was subjected to abuse. Once that happens to a child you never quite recover one can only deal with the pain. And deal I did for many years, it really wasn't an issue in my life. That changed in Richland WA when I was subjected to the mother of all pat downs. If you understand anything about the abuse issue victims can be triggered and triggered I was. So I promised myself never to allow that to happen to me again. A promise I was not able to keep. For on Nov 4 I walked through a metal detector and into the heel I deal with now. See TSA changed the rules on Nov but failed to inform the public so when I walked through the metal detector that day I had no idea what was about to happen to me. I won't go into it but I have contacted and am working with the ACLU in Colorado. In wildest dreams I never thought that would happen. I did contact TSA about what happened to me but thats like talking to the hand.

What is my point? Disabled people are being targeted by TSA. We are the people who get the vast majority of these pat downs. Remember that we once had the shoe bomber and we are still talking of our shoes, after the fact. We joked "Glad we don't call him the under ware bomber" and now we do. Why is that important?

The current metal detectors only detect METAL not bombs. So while I am there being very carefully and intimately patted down someone with a bomb in his draws or her bra can slip through. In fact that has happened we call him the underware bomber. What catch any underware bombers? That is the scanner. But there is a problem....the American public doesn't want to be seen kinda naked. Me on the other hand give the naked. But you would be so suprised at the lack of operational scanners in the airports. Today at PHL I was luckly because I was flying out of the F concourse.....the only one with a scanner at this MAJOR airport. At MCO 5 out 7 times I have flown out the scanners were down and I had to wait up to 30 mins to walk through one.

Think about that for 30 minutes the scanners were down in Orlando 5 times. All flyers unprotected from a bomber. I could tell you about other unprotected airplanes.

So when you fly next and you see someone like myself or Richie Lion ......look around see anyone you might suspect. You might want to push them through that scanner.

Me I only fly out of scanner equiped airports and yet I have been patted down. In Boston on the very concourse through which the 911 bombers walked the one and only scanner had been down to 2 days. No protection from bombs for 2 days. You can check the TSA website to find out that only 80 airports have scanners and some only on 1 concourse.

So when you read this post think about me and all the disabled...but more inportant think about just how safe you are.

I suggest you are not as safe as you think.......

Cologal; thank you for your thorough explanation of the stress flying with medical implants is. I can't even imagine the courage of someone who history also includes abuse. I've never been entirely comfortable with doctors touching me in certain places, but to let some blue collar bubba touch me because my implants set off his alarm, or he just feels like it, is more than I can tolerate.

My wife, like Tbugs evidently, is able bodied and mostly has the same stress free "what extra security" flying experience. She's not happy that I get this heart racing with chills thing just anticipating what's going to happen, but it is what it is, and I am who I am.

(I have to add this, I apologize for repeating myself)
Also if, and only if, any aspiring terrorist is going through the backscatter imaging system TSA might, and only might, notice something out of sorts. But if the device is implanted in a body cavity or surgically implanted the terrorist is home free. All 4th Amendment violations and hundreds of millions of tech dollars spent notwithstanding.

I am sorry Richie. I still don't get it. And sorry too Cologal that you have to go through this and it causes you so much anxiety.

There are terrorists and these procedures can help us fly safely or at least a little safer. I think that the procedures are for the greater good and for greater safety. Are they fail safe? Probably not. But you can't just let them think that we aren't tryin'.

Helene has metal wiring in her sternum from a heart surgery. I would never think that she was being targeted.

I cannot believe that every person working for the TSA or a majority of people working for the TSA or a lot of people working for the TSA are sex deviates.

I see that it is your political stance and even your heartfelt belief against government intervention, when not needed and I am trying to see it from your side.

Cologal flies a lot and Richie you don't fly.

Could it just be possible, that most of these people who work for the TSA are just ordinary folks with a job to do?

I do not understand all this fear. At least that is how it feels to me when I read these posts. Fear.


Could you allow yourself to think, just for one moment that these procedures are helping...even a little?

In a perfect world, the one we grew up in even, this wouldn't be necessary. Unfortunately it is.

You're a very nice human being Gracie. I know you like to think the best of everyone and hope they do the same.

I'm a bit more pessimistic, especially when it comes to average people put in the position of almost unlimited power over another person's body.

Cologal and I are relating personal stories. It doesn't really matter if it's a deviant or schlub, I don't want his hands on the private parts of my body, period. I don't want to go through the "God knows how much radiation we're really being exposed to" naked imaging scan.

If you're fine with strangers touching you, for whatever reason they've pulled you out of line that you cannot ask about, that's your business and your decision. I cannot change how I feel about it.

I don't fly, not because I don't want to. It's because I can't and therefore i won't. I guess I'll be seeing my family a lot less than I thought before I moved 1,000 miles away.

Do I think these procedures are helping? No, not really. Unless you mean helping to enlarge the government and their control over the population. First the airports, then the rail lines, then the shopping malls, etc. etc. They're even developing rolling scans that will be placed in vehicles with the purpose of naked scanning people walking the streets; all for the security of something or another.

Also, and this is a big also. I keep bringing up the fact that people are also subjecting their CHILDREN to this. No one who's answered me in these forums ever mentions the CHILDREN that are also be told by their parents that..............

"Mommy, Daddy, your Doctor and the people in the blue uniforms with badges at the airport are the only people who are allowed to touch you in your private areas." (for now)

I do not believe the TSA is targeting disabled people overtly.

I believe the TSA is a myopic, reactionary, insensitive, self-centered batch of self-declared "experts" who answer to no-one, listen to no-one and have no concept that people have individual situations.

Do you think, for one minute, that a TSA that was forward-thinking would have implemented the kinds of policies they have WITHOUT having put policies in place to handle people with implants or other medical conditions?

Do you think the TSA should be beyond reproach when it's been proven that they are incompetent?

Do you think it makes sense to allow an agency to implement whatever policy it likes without being subject to review or forcing them to justify it? And when those policies ignore procedures that work in favor of buying unproven equipment from politically-connected manufacturers?

Is there some magical reason why, if I enter an airport, I should allow "the authorities" to do things that would get them arrested if they were anywhere EXCEPT an airport? Do I somehow check my Constitution rights at the curb?

DJ; Thank you so much for the additional insight and analysis into this discussion. I agree with every point you've made. Arbitrary authority over me has always gotten my fists to clench and my eyes to narrow.

It just irks me incessantly that the same actions can result in diametrically opposed outcomes.

If a TSA agent asks to fondle my genitals at the security gate and I say "no", I get ejected.

If a TSA agent asks to fondle my genitals at the doors just over 50' away (the entrance to the terminal) and I say "no", I get to sue them for sexual assault, they lose their jobs and may go to prison.

By comparison, any other police officer operates under the same rules no matter where they are.

Oh No; the way our government works that's what they'll change. They'll be groping us in the parking lot now. Gee, thanks a lot DJ.

Well, Cologal and Richie, I do not have any medical implants or prosthetics and I am very happy about that.

Cologal, you seem to have adapted quite well to the situation since you do fly quite a bit. You will have a hard time with your lawsuit against TSA but that is your choice. If your case is ever heard, your background will play a big part for the TSA and it will also be TSA's word against yours. That is not meant to be derogative in any sense but just a legal view. No reply, pls.

Richie, you have not adapted at all. Your wife flies with no problem. Must be tough to explain to your children why Dad does not join the family group but that is your choice.

We all make our choices in what we do. I fly and have no problem. Cologal adapts to the situation and flies. Richie's wife flies and has no problem. Richie does not adapt and does not fly.

If you want to fly - adapt to the rules and regulations. It does not matter whether or not you think the rules are too much or too little, they are the rules.

You don't know me or my family. Very presumptuous to comment on my relationship with them. They would be the first ones up in your face, believe me.

You fly with no problem; well good for you. I bet you climb stairs with no problem also; well good for you. Your empathy is quite "admirable".

I won't adapt. I'll continue to speak out and contribute to the people who are trying to stop this abdication of our 4th Amendment rights. I'll also continue to disagree with people like you who'll send your children into the hands of strangers to fondle them for any reason they want to, if they want to, whenever they want to.

Rules are rules? In Nazi Germany, the rule were Jews had to wear a yellow star on their clothing. Rules are rules?!?!

Cologal has to fly because of her profession. It's required for her to travel to earn her living. I hurt for Cologal. I wish I could in some way help her beat this arbitrary system that enables strangers to put their hands on her. You are, again, quite presumptuous to comment on her lawsuit when you know diddly squat about it. How about just wishing her good luck?

I don't have her obligations and thus do not have to allow my own personal degradation, and I don't.

Richie.

I didn't realize that you are disabled.

I don't read every post on here.

I apologize if I have been insensitive.

I'm not disabled to any great extent Gracie, and I'm fine with you and your comments. I know your comments come from faith in your fellow man and the goodness of your heart, but I just don't trust in my fellow man's goodness very easily; I want evidence, individual by individual.

In 1999 I was in an accident while on my motorcycle (last day i rode one after 25 years of incident free glorious riding). The worst injury was my left leg was shattered. It was rebuilt with implants in my left femur and left tibia. It's not a pretty leg but it works. My knee on that leg gives me problems with pain when I walk too long or have to climb stairs. I cannot run because of the cartilage problems in that knee, and a bit of arthritis, I'm told.

It's the implants that are an issue only at the airport. I use to go right through, but it seems that they must be setting the metal detectors with readings that detect my implants more readily, because the last few times I flew I was pulled aside. Back then when they got to your sensitive areas they cursorily patted them down with the back of the hand. It was still uncomfortable to me. I won't permit the new enhanced patdowns to be performed on me and I'll undoubtedly cause a scene which won't be pleasant for me or anyone else flying with me. It's better I don't attempt this.

It's easy for me to empathize with others because I used to be "one of them".

I certainly have NO problem with stairs or any other mobility challenge but I wasn't always this way. I was born crippled. Yes, crippled. Not "challenged" or "differently abled". My legs were born looking like pretzels (bilateral club feet).

I have NEVER forgotten what my early years in casts, crutches, braces and wheechairs were like or the post-surgery difficulties I had.

TSA Patdown
 

Today is 4/6 and I reviewed the post since my last entry. This is an emotional charged topic for some and rightly so. The problem with the TSA tactics are that they are reactive and not proactive. The government stops a shoe bomber and the governement implement a procedure where all shoes have to be removed. The governement finds that terrorists conceal explosive in liquids and all liquids are banned and so on.

Israel no doubt has as difficult a problem and probably worse and their procedure is one of questioning. I am sure it is more than that but i don't have a top secret clearance yet. the point is that america's policy is too reactive. Honestly wouldn't it be easy for a terrorist to walk in an airport, school, department store,etc and open fire with an uzi and kill as many?
Put another way while the TSA is busy doing their thing terrorist already have devised another method for infiltration. speaking of which the gaps in our borders noth and south are so wide that OTM's (other than Mexicans) crossing the border represent what some expert claims is better thn 20%

And now we have this:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42568865/ns/travel-news/

The TSA molests a 6-year-old.

If ANY other person did that in ANY other place, they would go to prison and be on a SEX OFFENDER'S LIST for the REST OF THEIR LIVES.

I was going to post this but you beat me to it.....

I'm with Richielion on this topic. These TSA people are for the most part low paid, uneducated people put in positions of power. We as the public have no recourse to these people and they know it hence the power trip. To top it off I do not feel any safer when they fondle a 6 year old,or aan 86 year old. By the way does anyone know if the fondler of the 6 year old was fired. Also I am rooting for Cologal and her lawsuit.