Do We All Live On The Same Planet?
 

I'm stunned that my mind, my logic, and my life experience is so different from that of the spokesmen of the NRA.

Their promised first "meaningful contribution" to the nation's response to Sandy Hook is to support arming more people with more guns.

How is it possible to conclude this when there are two unchanged axioms throughout human history:

1) The more weapons man possesses, the more violence and death occurs.

2) The more sophisticated and deadly weapons are, the more serious injuries and death occur.

Someone has to refute these two realities before I will begin to question my sanity, but again, I'm astounded that there is such a divergence of opinion on this.

Oh! The first of my kids is arriving! Merry Christmas everyone!

:agree: You are very sane.

I don't think more firearms are needed to be worn by everyone. Are we as a society, to look at each other where I need to protect myself against everybody?

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to you and yours.

I don't profess to know what the best decision is for any of us, or all of us as a country. I can't imagine that one decision can cover all circumstances. Do we limit the TYPE of weapon one can own? Will that limit carnage?

I am glad there are those who have never had the need to own/learn how to handle/carry a gun for protection. May they never have to face a different scenario.

All the words that can be said have been said before. You know I do not originate them.

We all know the slogan, " Guns don't kill people. People kill people."

We know that those who have the desire to cause chaos and death will attempt to do so by whatever means they can.... if not guns, then fire, planes, etc. or perhaps a homemade bomb strapped to their bodies before entering a location to detonate. We only have to look about our world, remember or read history to see that. One only has to search the internet for evil, creative ideas.... do we ban the internet too? We all know that only good people follow the rules anyway.

Having said that, and meaning no disrespect to anyone, I would NOT keep/accumulate accessible firearms in a home with a member who has psychological/ emotional or mental problems, no matter of what origin nor what treatment may be in place.

Very sad that it now is too late for a Mother to make different choices.
I can only add my prayers for peace and comfort to the families.

"The only way to combat a bad man with a gun, is a good man with a gun".

So it sounds as though the NRA is advocating a gunfight at the OK Corral solution to gun violence. They believe teachers and administrators should be armed. Now think about it - a madman with assault weapons enters a classroom. By the time the teacher recognizes a threat and pulls a weapon out of their desk, or wherever, the madman has already mowed down a half dozen children, including, perhaps the armed teacher. If the teacher avoids being killed in the initial volley, he/she and the madman engage in an old fashioned gunfight in a crowded classroom. Yep, that will solve all our problems! The LEADERSHIP of the NRA is out of touch with the members of their own organization, and in another world from the rest of America. Good grief!

It would be interesting to hear some of the gun advocats speak their words of encouragement to the NRA idea of arming schoolteachers and administrators as well as college age students being allowed to carry handguns to classes.

You may not like guns, want a gun or want others to have them. You may feel the same way about God. But when someone breaks into your house the first thing you do is call someone who has a gun and pray they get there on time...

http://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/f...gh-Targets.pdf

http://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybel...control-lobby/

http://www.anncoulter.com/columns/20...html#read_more

Are you implying that someone who is interested in common sense gun control is also a nonbeliever in God? And are you implying that someone who calls the police because someone breaks in, should therefore believe in the concept of teachers and students being armed in schools? Please clarify your beliefs, because I am offended by what I read into your remarks.

Not totally agreeing with the NRA nor with you!
The point (which, of course, no one can guarantee) is that if a teacher had a gun and was trained in its use - perhaps - PERHAPS the gunmen could have been stopped. If the madman had killed a half dozen maybe the others would have been spared.

Obviously no one knows.

There are NO easy answers!

You are correct, obviously no one knows AND there are NO easy answers. It is however, good to look deeply and with objectivity into these issues rather than jump to easy conclusions based on preconcieved notions.

And PERHAPS that gunman would have quickly dispatched the teacher or mall cop in the hallway and now has another weapon and more bullets for his/her killing spree. You see PERHAPS works both ways, perhaps. But it defies logic to have gun totin' teachers as your line of defense against the repetition of last Friday. It IMO is also important they we don't try to find a solution to this one episode and not look at the bigger picture of gun deaths in America. Avoid the kind of simplistic cure that taking off our shoes would make air flight safe because of one use of shoes to bring down a plane.

Yes, there are answers. Do NOT be distracted by hollow arguments. You can find an example of violence which 'proves" or 'disproves' every argument.

The NRA would like us to spend our time debating armed guards in schools and then our resources implementing the plan. But wait! There were two armed guards in Columbine High School on that awful day. Neither was able to prevent any of the slaughter.

The answers are as simple as always. They are in the original post. Reduce the number and deadly potential of weapons and regulate their availability to the general public. The amount and severity of violence will AUTOMATICALLY be reduced. Sure there are many other things which might help, but what could be more sensible than uniform gun control?

I'm not a gun owner, not an IRA member, just a worried Grandpa!!!

This is my opinion......

1) Deranged people have been shooting up public locations killing innocent people... Isn't this Terrorism???

2) Nothing is in place or on the near horizon to stop this,

3) Even with stringent gun control, these people will have access to weapons, the black market will provide...just like with drugs,

4) One of these deranged people walked into Sandy Hook Elementry School and killed 26 innocents,

5) No more than 26 deaths would have occured and perhaps many less would have died if that deranged person had met someone, anyone with a gun to stop him.

6) I've never heard of one innocent being hurt by protectors in those locations where armed guards are present.

7) If President Obama's daughters are protected by armed guards, why not my grandchildren.

Until we reach Utopia, I want my grandchildren PROTECTED, by an armed policeman guarding the single entryway to their schools or a trained staff member with a gun centrally located in the school, or an armed Grandpa patrol sitting outside the door of the school.
_

It's been reported that there were two armed guards at Columbine High School. Virginia Tech has it's own SWAT team. Jarod Laughner fired off 31 shots in 30 seconds in Tuscon.

If a person encountered a "good guy with a gun and a bad guy with a gun", how would you possibly know which was which?

Wayne LaPierre is the Washington lobbyist who makes sure mass murderers have everything they could possibly need.

From what I have heard, unless you are a 'hothead' the average person will hesitate before pulling a trigger, even if they feel threatened. It is during this moment of hesitation that the assailant gets the upper hand. The common statement that criminals will find a way to get a weapon may be true, but a scarcity of weapons would drive up the price, therefore not every nut would be able to afford one. I'm not sure I can accept the idea that some form of gun control is contrary to the Constitution. I don't think the founding fathers were talking about assault weapons and arsenals. At the time the constitution was written, there were no phones to call for help when you found someone lurking around your property, many people live miles from any town or city and needed protection. In this case, the only viable solution would be to arm yourselves. It seems to me that the same constitution that allows this 'freedom' is the constitution that denied women the right to vote and was then changed when people realized the stupidity of the this law. We have the right to seek change when it is causing harm to United States Citizens.

Very reasonable post Trish!

Makes more sense than to let more psychos and drug crazed nuts out on the streets running loose. Da.:a040:

IF you read my post I said that I did not really agree with the NRA and yes, perhaps works both ways. The main point is that there simply are no easy answers.

Unfortunately no matter what you do some moron will always find a way to cause harm to other people.

When a CONVICTED killer is sent to prison for "25 to life" he is often let out much earlier. WHY? Should it not mean at least 25 years?

Sorry - getting off track here. Mea culpa

Not so!

Most guns are regulated already - note I did not say ALL! The criminal or mentally incompetent does not get a gun legally. Most are stolen.

As I have stated in other posts - go ahead add another 100 - 200 gun laws. do you REALLY think the criminals - repeat CRIMINALS - will obey them?

Use a gun in the commission of a crime - automatic jail time - no ifs, ands or buts.

I really do think the only thing that could of saved lives in that school would have been another gun!
One teacher,office worker,janitor or even a visitor to the school legally carrying could of stopped that sick kid in his tracks. And I doubt there would of been any hesitation in doing so. Some perished while trying to disarm him.
Some need to understand that personnel carry weapons are not tools of death ,they are
carried to help protect and preserve life.

I don't think what I said really will change things so I deleted it. There isn't any use arguing.

I understand this school of thought, but in my opinion it is way too simplistic. A teacher, office worker, janitor could have had a weapon, but would they have been in a position to stop the perp, before he entered the classroom and opened fire? At what point would one recognize what was going on and be able to take action? Would the armed person be trained in how to intervene to not only stop the perpetrator, but to assure the safety of the children? What if the armed "good guy", misread the situation and saw a threat when none actually existed, starting a firefight with an innocent unarmed person? And, most alarming to me, what would be the result of a firefight between someone with an automatic weapon, and the armed school person with hundreds of children in the same building? Now if the armed school employee saw the perp enter the building, instantly recognized he was armed and had mayhem on his mind, and either disarmed or killed him, I would say that was a positive outcome. However I can see so many inherent problems in having armed people in schools, including the possibility of these people going off and killing children themselves, that I think that would have to be thought through carefully. The "code of the west" didn't work so well in the 1800s and I can't believe that most of us want a country with people walking around everywhere with their fingers on a trigger. I have read in several places that there were two armed security people at Columbine High, and that was obviously not a deterrent in that tragedy.

With all due respect, you are not addressing my point. Can you name a single mass murderer in recent times who was a CRIMINAL prior to their rampage? These awful events are the best proof of the fact that if powerful weapons are not generally available, fewer unstable, previously anonymous persons will be able to get them.

And to go further, by simple math, if fewer powerful weapons are available, fewer CRIMINALS will have them.

I'm not talking about 'solving' this horrible social problem today, or even soon. I'm talking about taking a major foolproof, beginning step.

Now think about it a madman with 2 gallons of gasoline sets fire to a school, so we ban gasoline?

I don't think what I said really will change things so I deleted it. There isn't any use arguing.

I don't know what the answer is, but we have more gun laws and gun control now than at any time in our history and gun violence is worse now than it has ever been.
I'm not saying that there is a correlation between the two, but #1, there might be and #2 all of those laws and regulations have not helped. Why would anyone think that more laws and regulations are going to work?

Or a drunk driver kills a family with his car? Lets ban cars!

Seems I remember they tried banning alcohol and that didn't stop a lot of folks from drinking!

Guns do NOT kill people, people kill people! Treat the sick people and quit letting them roam our streets! One mother of a 13 year old boy that she could not handle begged police for help after he threatened her many times. They told her they could not help her until he had committed a crime! Some changes need to be made.

When you OUTLAW guns, only OUTLAWS will have guns!

Guess what high school had an armed guard? ..... Columbine.

Va Tech (just like every major college) has a full on armed Police force.

Or the more likely result would have been she would never have the time to get to the gun because for safety reasons it was on triple lockdown to prevent its use by the students in the school.

A ban is a good place to start. A ban is why crazys can't get a ground to air missile weapon. A weapon designed to kill only people and no other reason should remain out of the publics hands.

A ban is not the whole answer but I continue to ask the question if we don't take steps NOW what will the situation be in 2025?

The NRA does not represent gun owners like myself who has a hunting rifle and a small handgun, they represent the BUSINESS of gun manufacturers.

So what are you saying? Are you agreeing with the NRA that there is a place in society for assault weapons whose only job is to kill a lot of people in a short amount of time.

By all means lets lift bans on all weapons then. Surely we could all use a tank or too then we could all hear more fancy NRA slogans like tanks don't kill people, people kill people.

I fear for this country that the situation has gotten so far out of hand that we can rationalize the need for weapons of mass destruction by comparing it to 2 gallons of gasoline in the wrong persons hands.

Discussing the situation with those would would use these or any other kind of comparisons simply do not understand the issue at hand.

If you own a few hunting guns you are normal in this country.
If you own a pistol in your home for personal protection, you are normal in this country.

If you own a collection of Semi-Automatic weapons rather long gun or pistol. HUUMMM

If you own Semi-Automatic weapons designed to match military weapons---if you own large capacity clips for these weapons--- if you are a member of any of the so called militia groups, you probably have a problem that needs outside intervention and not from your buddy that gets drunk and shoots holes in his beer cans for sport.

If you have converted any of your weapons to fully automatic. YOU DEFINITELY HAVE A PROBLEM.

We have many VERY intelligent people here on TOTV.

We have a few WING NUTS on TOTV.

I'm pretty sure that none of us will be able to change anyone's mind on this topic. :pray:

We have people who need to love and be loved. It just may improve their outlook on life.

God bless you all - Merry Christmas.

Xavier

Guns are another issue that deeply divides our country. Guns, taxes, spending, social issues, women's rights, education, defense, and on and on.
The major difference is, with guns people die. But that's ok with the NRA and others as long as many guns as possible are in the hands of people....who cares to whom or how obtained or for what intent. All falsely in the name of protecting a constitutional right. How sick.

................

Wise answer and it would be wise for those that have preconcieved notions about the evils of guns to also listen to these words. I think your words OldCoach are an excellent place for both sides to start from.

[QUOTE=senior citizen;598030]I tend to agree with you.


Everyone has guns in Vermont.


Not often, but when the occasional "city person" that looked suspicious to him or his staff,
Before anyone gets "upset" over my using the word "city folks", we ourselves came from the big cities......just using that as a frame of reference as to how he would know that it wasn't a local or "townie" resident......often by their mode of dress or suspicious way of casing the place. The ones that raised his suspicions stuck out like a sore thumb.....

Really? Everyone has guns in Vermont?
Was there something else about the "city person" that you are not mentioning that would also distinguish them from the "townie"?

You are right and a very nice thoughtful post. Of course it's possible to seek change and that's one of the remarkable things about the way our founding fathers set up our great country. Lets also keep in mind, we think nothing of trained people with guns protecting our most valuable assets. We use armed guards to protect our money, we use armed guards to protect our president. If you had a million dollars in cash or gold would you just place it in a building with no guards? and hope no one came to take it? How much more valuable are our children? yes it's not a perfect answer but do you think if we changed the constitution tomorrow that the bad guys wouldn't still have and use guns? do you think if someone is dead set on attacking a school they wouldn't find a way to do it? using some other method like a truck bomb or plane or who knows? I certainly think it's wise to have an open and frank discussion and look at all of the possibilities and not close our minds

I completely understand the situation, "blame the inanimate object not the person". My point was anything can be a murder weapon. You look for an easy answer there is none. This Madman killed his Mom, took guns (which are illegally obtained by him, steals a car) and commits murder. When we opened the asylums we let the insane out do you really think any laws will stop an insane person? Virginia Tech has it's own Police Department and where were they? If Columbine has a school Security officer where was he? Why are airline pilots armed even though there are sky marshals on planes?

In reguards to item 6 read this from last Aug.NYPD Gunfire In Empire State Building Shooting Wounded All Nine Bystanders, Says Ray Kelly